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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Weird House Cinema.

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Speaker 3: This is Rob Lamb and this is Joe McCormick. And Hey,

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Speaker 3: if you are new to our podcast, we thought maybe

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Speaker 3: we should give a brief explainer of what Weird House

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Speaker 3: Cinema is because it's a little bit different than the

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Speaker 3: pitch of our regular episodes. So on Tuesdays and Thursdays

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Speaker 3: in the Stuff to Blow your Mind feed, we run

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Speaker 3: our core science and culture episodes. Taste for topics there

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Speaker 3: is quite broad, but they tend to have a more

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Speaker 3: kind of interest, curiosity, academic kind of focus, that sort

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Speaker 3: of thing. And then on Fridays we do a very

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Speaker 3: different type of show. That's what you're here for today.

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Speaker 3: It is Weird House Cinema, where we just talk about

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Speaker 3: weird movies, not a whole lot of specific criteria except

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Speaker 3: that it's got to be weird. So we do films

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Speaker 3: that are good and bad, old and new, or relatively

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Speaker 3: new and well known or obscure. We do them all,

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Speaker 3: except they've got to have something weird about them. Usually

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Speaker 3: they're from the speculative genres, and especially if there is

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Speaker 3: something esthetically or thematically strange. We that's our territory.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Generally our approach is though we we try

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Speaker 2: to find something to love in any of the films

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Speaker 2: we discuss in Weird House Cinema. I'd say that's something

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Speaker 2: that maybe sets us a little apart from other shows.

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Speaker 2: I'll also say that, you know, sometimes we will get

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Speaker 2: into a more serious topic in the Weird House Cinema episode,

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Speaker 2: but it is not a guarantee. You know, sometimes there'll

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Speaker 2: be a science angle that pops up, or some sort

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Speaker 2: of interesting cultural aspect of the piece, but it is

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Speaker 2: it is not always the case. Sometimes it's it's straight goofiness.

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Speaker 2: It just depends. And often there's a fair amount of nostalgia.

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Speaker 2: And that's that's very much in play on today's episode

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Speaker 2: because we're gonna be talking about a film that I

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Speaker 2: was absolutely thrilled for or when it first came out

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Speaker 2: back in nineteen ninety five. It is The Prophecy, not

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Speaker 2: to be confused with the Killer Bear film that came

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Speaker 2: out before this. This is the angelic supernatural thriller. I

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Speaker 2: guess you'd call it The Prophecy starring Christopher Walkin, so

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Speaker 2: Joe I was seventeen when this film came out, and

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Speaker 2: in so many ways, absolutely perfect film for a teenage

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Speaker 2: Bible raised and sort of MTV nourished kid like myself.

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Speaker 2: Here was a weird fantasy horror film with mid nineties

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Speaker 2: attitude about angels, particularly rebel angels, from the guy who

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Speaker 2: wrote Highlander, and starring none other than Christopher Walkin.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, So I had never seen The Prophecy until

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Speaker 3: a few days ago, so this was brand new for me.

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Speaker 3: A couple of the early scenes looked a little bit familiar,

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Speaker 3: so maybe I caught a scene or two on TV

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Speaker 3: back in the day, but I'd never seen the film.

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Speaker 3: This would have been right in my wheelhouse when I

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Speaker 3: was in like ninth grade. This would have been like

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Speaker 3: the coolest thing ever to me at that age. And also,

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Speaker 3: I think I was telling you about this when we

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Speaker 3: were chatting a couple weeks ago. I have a vague

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Speaker 3: memory of not seeing this movie but becoming aware of

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Speaker 3: it when I was in high school and feeling a

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Speaker 3: very particular kind of disappointment when I became aware of it,

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Speaker 3: the disappointment of having realized a cool idea I had

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Speaker 3: for a story I wanted wanted to write, had already

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Speaker 3: been written. And so it was like ninth grade and

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Speaker 3: in my English class, we I think had read Frankenstein,

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Speaker 3: and then from there had gotten into talking about Paradise Lost,

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Speaker 3: because that's you know, the themes of Paradise It's referenced

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Speaker 3: in Frankenstein, and then you know, the themes are explored

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Speaker 3: through the comparison between Satan and the creature in Frankenstein.

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Speaker 3: And so anyway, I got interested in the idea of

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Speaker 3: Paradise Lost. And in the opening scene, the pandemonium scene,

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Speaker 3: you know, the debate in hell uh, and I had

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Speaker 3: this idea like, whoa, what if I were to write

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Speaker 3: a story that was set in the modern day about

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Speaker 3: a war between angels? And I was like trying to

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Speaker 3: dream up all this stuff. And then without seeing this film,

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Speaker 3: I somehow became aware that of this movie and that

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Speaker 3: that was already the premise of this movie. And I

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Speaker 3: was kind of like somebody already got.

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Speaker 2: There, Well, a number of people got there. Yeah, And

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Speaker 2: I do hate that this this movie scared off Young

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Speaker 2: Joe from writing that that that that epic saga.

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Speaker 3: I think mine would have been quite different in realization.

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Speaker 2: But oh yeah, that's a great thing about Angel media.

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Speaker 2: There's there's room for so much variation here. And one

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Speaker 2: of the interesting things about this film is that supposedly

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Speaker 2: the financial success of this sort of like mid budget

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Speaker 2: picture kind of paved the way for a lot of

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Speaker 2: other Angel related media, especially you your darker angel media,

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Speaker 2: not to be confused with some of the lighter hearted

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Speaker 2: fare out there. Not to say that this was the

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Speaker 2: first film to feature, you know, sort of like trench

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Speaker 2: coat wearing angels and so forth.

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Speaker 3: I assume this comes after the Wings of Desire. I

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Speaker 3: didn't check, but does this come before or after the

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Speaker 3: City of Angels adaptation? Okay, we just went off Mike

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Speaker 3: for a second and checked. Yeah, so Wings of Desire

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Speaker 3: was eighty seven. But the Nicholas Cage and Meg Ryan

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Speaker 3: is it Meg Ryan?

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Speaker 2: I think so.

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Speaker 3: In that adaptation of Wings of Desire, which does have

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Speaker 3: angels and trench coats, came after the Prophecy. Very different tone,

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Speaker 3: different subject matter. It's kind of hard to imagine that

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Speaker 3: the Prophecy inspired the Nicholas Cage version, especially since that

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Speaker 3: was an adaptation of a pre existing film. But I

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Speaker 3: don't know, maybe maybe a little bit in there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, I did not certainly I don't

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Speaker 2: think I knew about Wings of Desire yet time when

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Speaker 2: this came out. So I was I was interested in

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Speaker 2: metal and fantasy, dungeons and dragons, and you know, to

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Speaker 2: my limited ability in the occult, you know, whatever I

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Speaker 2: could find at the nearest books a million or Barnes

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Speaker 2: and Noble or whatever. We had. The wall of my

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Speaker 2: room was a collage of like Gustav dore woodcuts and

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Speaker 2: fantasy illustrations, and I had a big old poster of

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Speaker 2: Glenn Danzig with Icars wings. You know. So I was

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Speaker 2: playing a lot of magic the gathering, I was listening

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Speaker 2: to a lot of like nine Inch Nails and Black Sabbath.

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Speaker 2: But I think one of the interesting things is looking back,

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Speaker 2: you know, there was a dominant surrounding Christian culture, and

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Speaker 2: I think it made complete straightforward fascination with demons somewhat intimidating,

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Speaker 2: like not impossible, and clearly lots of you know, kids

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Speaker 2: did have that interest. But for me at least, it

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Speaker 2: felt like, Okay, here's a way to balance all of

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Speaker 2: that out in a way that will I don't know,

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Speaker 2: keep me in in good things with other people or something,

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Speaker 2: but it felt right to balance out this interest in

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Speaker 2: like demons with an interest in angels, you know, and

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Speaker 2: it's something you can do when you're stuck in church,

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Speaker 2: Like you got a Bible there, you can just start

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Speaker 2: turning to all the weirder parts and looking for the

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Speaker 2: parts that have weird angels.

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Speaker 3: Though I think sometimes people are disappointed to learn that

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Speaker 3: a lot of the really weird, really cool angel lore

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Speaker 3: is not actually in any of the canonical scripture, is it.

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Speaker 3: You know, there is there are like ancient texts talking

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Speaker 3: about this, but they tend to be various, apocryphal, or

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Speaker 3: not canonical within mainstream Christian denominations.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, there's still some weird stuff in the in

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Speaker 2: the Bible. Yeah, and you can look it up and

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Speaker 2: certainly relish it. But yeah, I was even reading stuff.

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Speaker 2: I think I read Screwtape for the first time, you know,

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Speaker 2: which deals more with demons. Obviously, I read Billy Graham's

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Speaker 2: Angels at the time, like that was that was very

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Speaker 2: much a you know, a supported read. But you know,

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Speaker 2: at the end of the day, angels are just devils

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Speaker 2: that haven't fallen yet. And you know, even within the

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Speaker 2: soul context of Biblical and Christian traditions, there're plenty strange.

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Speaker 2: There are plenty weird and more than a little terrifying.

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Speaker 2: So this movie was pretty exciting to me, and when

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Speaker 2: I finally got to see it, probably on VHS, it

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Speaker 2: did not disappoint. I specifically remember being taken by the

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Speaker 2: way the angels in this movie frequently perch like birds,

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Speaker 2: often in ways that defy gravity. Yeah, and I remember

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Speaker 2: like thinking this looks super cool, especially when Christopher Walkin

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Speaker 2: did it. I remember thinking it looks like suitably weird,

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Speaker 2: dark and outsidery. And so I would try doing it myself,

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Speaker 2: not in ways that were impossible or physically dangerous, but

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Speaker 2: you know, I would would. I would try out the

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Speaker 2: angelic perch position whilst say, waiting outside of the local

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Speaker 2: card shop for other people to show up so we

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Speaker 2: could play magic and stuff. Wow, And little did I know,

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Speaker 2: I was actually practicing, kind of practicing a yoga pose

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Speaker 2: that I would do a lot more much later on

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Speaker 2: in my life. In fact, I like to think I'm

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Speaker 2: rather good at this particular pose, and I wonder if

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Speaker 2: it has anything to do with this movie if I

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Speaker 2: got in some extra practice on it early on. Probably not.

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Speaker 2: I actually reached out to my yoga teacher Alison shout

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Speaker 2: out to Condra Yoga to ask her what pose Walkin

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Speaker 2: in particular is busting out in this film. I sent

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Speaker 2: her some screen grabs from the movie and she thinks

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Speaker 2: it's probably an adaptation of either Garland pose or toe

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Speaker 2: balance pose. So not one hundred percent he's doing some

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Speaker 2: different things with his arms, but essentially angelic graveyard yoga

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Speaker 2: in this movie.

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Speaker 3: Well, I don't want to take away at all from

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Speaker 3: the coolness of what you saw on it, because I

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Speaker 3: see what you mean. But I do have to admit

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Speaker 3: when I first saw it in the movie, I could

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Speaker 3: not contain my laughter in the scene with Eric Stoltz

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Speaker 3: doing it, because he's on the back of the chair

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Speaker 3: in the detective's apartment, squatting up like a vulture there

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Speaker 3: reading a book and the coat is dangling off the

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Speaker 3: back of him. It's that part I thought was quite funny.

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Speaker 2: Well, now as we first see it with with Eric

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Speaker 2: Stultz's character, yeah, it's sort of it's a little surreal,

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Speaker 2: maybe a little laughter inducing, But I mean, when Christopher

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Speaker 2: Walkin's doing it, you have to admit it's cool. Every

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Speaker 2: time does Christopher Walkin do anything in this movie that's

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Speaker 2: not just maddeningly cool. Well, I don't know.

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Speaker 3: Christopher Walkin is a different kind of thing because this

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Speaker 3: movie has a mix of tones. Some of the characters

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Speaker 3: in this movie appear to be going for a straight

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Speaker 3: hard nineties occult cool, you know, very like sunglasses, long coat,

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Speaker 3: like this is so sick. And then other characters in

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Speaker 3: the movie are bring a kind of lightness and a humor.

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Speaker 3: And Christopher Walkin absolutely does all of his scenes. He

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Speaker 3: is being incredibly playful even while he's you know, delivering

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Speaker 3: these dark mondsgues about how he raises cities to the

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Speaker 3: ground and so he's always on screen, got a twinkle

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Speaker 3: in his eye and kind of a dancer's energy. He's

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Speaker 3: just giving a funny, lively, prancing kind of performance, and

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Speaker 3: it's it's definitely there in the way he does the

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Speaker 3: pose as well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was watching some of the extras on this one,

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Speaker 2: and we'll get to that addition here in just a minute.

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Speaker 2: But one of the things about the pose the perch

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Speaker 2: that the actors are using here is they were all

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Speaker 2: capable of assuming this pose, but it's not really a

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Speaker 2: pose you can hold for extended period of time, for

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Speaker 2: like multiple takes and so forth, and also in sometimes

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Speaker 2: sometimes dangerous positions they're putting them, or physically impossible positions.

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Speaker 2: So they would have to have them adopt the perch,

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Speaker 2: and then they would measure them and create a harness

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Speaker 2: to hold them in place for the shots. But they

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Speaker 2: had to like figure out what poe exactly what form

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Speaker 2: of the post they were taking first, and the extras.

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Speaker 2: The filmmakers were talking about how they came to walk

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Speaker 2: In with this, and he's like, I'm gonna have to

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Speaker 2: think about this and then Walkin. This is like, you know,

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Speaker 2: shortly before filming, and then Walkin calls them back in

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Speaker 2: the middle of the night and he says, I'm perching

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Speaker 2: like he had found the perch beautiful.

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Speaker 3: Well, I have to imagine this would be difficult to

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Speaker 3: hold even with a harness supporting your weight, because like

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Speaker 3: your legs are bunched up under you, Like would the

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Speaker 3: harness hold your legs as well?

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Speaker 2: I didn't. I think I saw some sketches of the harness,

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Speaker 2: but it didn't really get a good idea of exactly

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Speaker 2: how it's holding them in position, I mean comfortably enough

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Speaker 2: that Walkin does it on the edge of a top

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Speaker 2: of a building at one point and then apparently didn't

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Speaker 2: feel too much in peril. But yeah, it must have

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Speaker 2: been comfortable enough for them to do multiple takes, because

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Speaker 2: we see this from multiple actors at different points in

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Speaker 2: the film. So we'll come back more on the perch

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Speaker 2: later on. Though. To be clear, even my teenage self,

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Speaker 2: I wanted to be Christopher Walkin, not so much the

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Speaker 2: other Angels. But yeah, coming back to this movie more

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Speaker 2: than thirty years after I originally saw it, I have

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Speaker 2: to say that on the whole, I think it holds

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Speaker 2: up pretty well. There's to be clear, there's some dumb

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Speaker 2: stuff in here, but we have some wonderful actors. It

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Speaker 2: manages to deliver largely deliver on this weird rebel angel

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Speaker 2: tale set in the Arizona Desert with cool effects, cool

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Speaker 2: practical effects for the most part. And it was lighter

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Speaker 2: on the nineties cringe than I was fearful of. You know,

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Speaker 2: coming back to a movie from the mid nineties, it's

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Speaker 2: easy to wonder exactly how much of it is going

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Speaker 2: to still be still be good. But I felt like

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Speaker 2: it held up pretty well all right. My elevator pitch

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Speaker 2: for this one, Joe is just simply rebel angels need

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Speaker 2: American war criminals. That.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that is a correct description of the plot, and

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Speaker 3: one of the more puzzling things about it like that

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Speaker 3: angels are not capable of like that humans do war

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Speaker 3: better than angels do, and so they need our worst,

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Speaker 3: the worst war commanders ever do like to recruit, I guess,

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Speaker 3: or I mean it's used as a kind of substance, yeah, or.

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Speaker 2: Or I don't know. I thought maybe they're going to, like,

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Speaker 2: you know, body him up and use him as a general.

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure, but I guess it does kind of

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Speaker 2: fit with one of the things, the idea that the rebeling,

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Speaker 2: the new rebel Angels, as we'll discuss Gabriel and his

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Speaker 2: crew here, they do not like human beings. They think

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Speaker 2: they are on the whole bad. They're they're jealous that

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Speaker 2: they became God's favorite, and maybe this is part of it.

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Speaker 2: It's like humans are capable of evil in a way

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Speaker 2: that angels and devils are kind of like, wow, that's impressive.

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Speaker 2: We didn't know you could do it like that, And

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Speaker 2: therefore they become a valuable asset to to this angelic

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Speaker 2: war that's ongoing.

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Speaker 3: One thing I really do like about this movie, and

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Speaker 3: think works quite well about it is the way it

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Speaker 3: represents angels as very different than the way I understood

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Speaker 3: angels like as a child in church, where I understood

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Speaker 3: them as a as almost without personalities of their own

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Speaker 3: and without a will of their own or an ability

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Speaker 3: to you know, deviate. There are sort of pure expressions

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Speaker 3: of God's will and goodness. Yeah, yeah, they're like robots

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Speaker 3: that enact the will of God. And this movie doesn't

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Speaker 3: present them that way. In this movie, they are much

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Speaker 3: more like a pantheon of pagan gods. You know, they

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Speaker 3: they have their own motivations. They can you know, they

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Speaker 3: can be good or bad or shades in between. They

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Speaker 3: can do bad in service of what they think is

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Speaker 3: doing good. They can and they to cross purposes to

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Speaker 3: each other. So I think it's just more like you

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Speaker 3: get in, you know, with gods in these pagan contexts,

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Speaker 3: or maybe in certain visions of angels in the in

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Speaker 3: the history of Christianity and Judaism. What you would have

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Speaker 3: to assume, for example, to really think about the implications

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Speaker 3: of a war in heaven or a rebellion of Lucifer

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Speaker 3: or things like that. You know, there's got to be

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Speaker 3: sort of a will acting against the divine command.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, as a number of the visions one might get

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Speaker 2: for a war in heaven, though involved I think angelic

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Speaker 2: hosts with like swords of light and so forth, not

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Speaker 2: so much in this film. This is more angels as

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Speaker 2: savage harpies trying to claw each other's hearts out of

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Speaker 2: their chests and casting each other down onto stakes where

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Speaker 2: they're impaled, like you know, a forest of screaming angels,

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Speaker 2: that sort of thing.

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Speaker 3: You've got Gabriel, and you've got Metatron, and you've got

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Speaker 3: Jason Vorhees, the Angel. There are quite a few moments

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Speaker 3: in this movie that where the angels behave like slasher

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Speaker 3: movie slashers.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, definitely strong horror vibes here. All right. Now,

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Speaker 2: at this point you might be wondering, well, I would like,

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Speaker 2: where can I go on out and watch The Prophecy. Well,

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Speaker 2: there's a strong argument to be made for just watching

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Speaker 2: this bad way and VHS as the Lord of Hosts intended.

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Speaker 2: But failing that, it is widely available digitally, and we

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Speaker 2: both watched it on the excellent Vinegar Syndrome. The Prophecy

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Speaker 2: one through three collection, great quality, great extras, and yes,

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Speaker 2: as we'll come back to. This movie was enough of

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Speaker 2: a hit to spawn multiple non theatrical releases. Only the

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Speaker 2: first three collected in this set have Christopher walkin, though,

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Speaker 2: and you know, I think the Prophecy demands Christopher walkin

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Speaker 2: like he is the savage, angelic heart of this picture,

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Speaker 2: and any sequels that were.

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Speaker 3: Made ironically the soul of the film.

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Speaker 2: Yes.

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Speaker 3: Oh, and we should say, just in case you're new

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Speaker 3: to the show, that our discussion of movies are always

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Speaker 3: laden with lots of spoilers. So we discussed the plot

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Speaker 3: in a lot of detail in the second half of

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Speaker 3: the episode, and we will freely talk about things that

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Speaker 3: happen later in the film. So yeah, if you would

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Speaker 3: like to go into the Prophecy fresh, unspoiled, not knowing

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Speaker 3: anything in advance, she should probably hop out. Now, you know,

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Speaker 3: pause this, go watch the movie and then come back.

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Speaker 2: That's right, All right, Let's talk about some of the

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Speaker 2: folks behind this movie, starting with the director and writer

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Speaker 2: Gregory Widen born nineteen fifty eight American writer, producer, and

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Speaker 2: director who famously famously wrote a little script in his

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Speaker 2: UCLA screenwriting class about Immortal Swordsman, which he managed to

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Speaker 2: sell for two hundred thousand dollars, and this became the

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Speaker 2: nineteen eighty six cult favorite Highlander, directed by Russell McKay,

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Speaker 2: and he'd retain a character's credit on all future Highlander projects,

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Speaker 2: but it was only involved in the screenplay I believe

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Speaker 2: of the first film.

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Speaker 3: So in both cases wrote something that had a bunch

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Speaker 3: of sequels and spin offs.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, because I believe with the same as

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Speaker 2: with the Prophecy, I don't think he was really involved

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Speaker 2: in the writing and certainly not the directing on the

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Speaker 2: subsequent Prophecy flicks. But he followed up Highlander with teleplay

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Speaker 2: work on a nineteen eighty eight TV movie titled Weekend War,

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Speaker 2: and then also the nineteen ninety one firefighting movie Backdraft,

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Speaker 2: directed by Ron Howard and starring Kurt Russell, among others.

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Speaker 2: And he also both wrote and directed the nineteen ninety

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Speaker 2: three Tales from the Crypt episode Halfway Horrible, starring Clancy Brown,

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Speaker 2: Martin Cove, and Cheech Marin. But it was after this

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Speaker 2: that he wrote a script I believe had like the

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Speaker 2: working title God's Army about revel angels, and he set

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Speaker 2: out to direct it himself, securing an indie film budget,

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Speaker 2: and most importantly the casting of Christopher Walken, which made

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Speaker 2: everything possible.

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Speaker 3: I would love this is one of those cases where,

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Speaker 3: you know, you read the stories about other actors who

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Speaker 3: were considered for the role of Han solo or something.

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Speaker 3: I would love to know who else would have been

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Speaker 3: considered for the role of Gabriel.

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Speaker 2: It's hard. I believe it was written with Walkin in

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Speaker 2: mind and they were able to get him. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's it's hard to imagine anyone else really playing it

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Speaker 2: in a way that would be as fun and memorable

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Speaker 2: as this. Like you could, you know, easily go more

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Speaker 2: dark and brooding, but I don't know, you need that

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Speaker 2: particular Walkin energy to make it work. In my opinion.

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Speaker 2: On the Vinegar Syndrome extras, Widened points points out that

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Speaker 2: there are various challenges in getting to the point of

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Speaker 2: actually making this film, including producers saying, well, we love it,

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Speaker 2: but what if we just made the angels demons instead,

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Speaker 2: and they were like, well that then it's just like

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Speaker 2: every other film that's already out there. Like the fact

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Speaker 2: that their angels is what's making this different. Yeah, and

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Speaker 2: so the prophecy you know, comes together light on budget,

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Speaker 2: but high on ambition and seemingly largely true to the

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Speaker 2: director and writer's vision here. I think there's there's a

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Speaker 2: what a CGI effect pretty late in the film that

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Speaker 2: I'm to understand was a Mirramax suggestion, And I think

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Speaker 2: there's a strong argument to be made that, you know

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Speaker 2: that it's one of the parts of the film that

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Speaker 2: hasn't held up all that well.

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Speaker 3: But oh, is this when the child coughs up a

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Speaker 3: skeleton made of fire?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it then like holy light reveals the soul's

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Speaker 2: hideous form and then it gets sucked away. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: not the best moment of the film. But on the whole,

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Speaker 2: the Prophecy proved a success. It spawned two walkin Hilm sequels,

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Speaker 2: and then two more that he was not attached to.

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Speaker 2: Widen didn't direct again to date, but went on to

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Speaker 2: write twenty nineteen's Backdraft two and twenty seventeen's Other Life.

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Speaker 2: He is still active now. The subsequent Prophecy films real quick,

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Speaker 2: I'm just going to run through them so you know

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Speaker 2: what they are. Prophecy two in ninety eight. That one

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Speaker 2: had Russell Wong, Jennifer Bials, Brittany Murphy, Eric Roberts, a

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Speaker 2: cameo by Glenn Danzig and then Christopher Walken of course

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Speaker 2: in the lead.

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Speaker 3: Was Danzig playing an angel?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, he plays a fallen angel that gets his

402
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Speaker 2: heart ripped out early in the picture. So in a

403
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Speaker 2: small role, but nice get. Probably one of the better

404
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Speaker 2: films Glenn Danzig has appeared in, if not the best.

405
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Speaker 2: The Prophecy three in two thousand the Assent. This one

406
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Speaker 2: had Vincent Spano in it and Brad Dorif and then

407
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Speaker 2: we get the two Walking List sequels. We have the

408
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Speaker 2: Prophecy Uprising in two thousand and three with John Light

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Speaker 2: Doug Bradley's in that one, and then we have the

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Speaker 2: Prophecy Forsaken in two thousand and five that has Jason

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Speaker 2: Scott Lee and also Tony Todd.

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Speaker 3: So by the fourth one, they stopped putting numbers on

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Speaker 3: them and it just became colon word right, right.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, And I certainly haven't seen the last two,

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Speaker 2: so I can't really speak to those. And again they're

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Speaker 2: not included on the Vinegar Syndrome set that that we acquired.

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Speaker 2: All right, let's get into the cast here. I'm going

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Speaker 2: to take it in a different order. We're going to

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Speaker 2: start with the angels and demons, because you know, the

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Speaker 2: humans were the monkeys as the angels, as Gabriel calls

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Speaker 2: him in the film, on the whole less interesting. You know,

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Speaker 2: you don't come into the prophecy because you're like, I

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Speaker 2: want to see a movie about a priest who became

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Speaker 2: a homicide detective.

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Speaker 3: No, I don't know that detail was really funny when

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Speaker 3: they first come He's like, no, I'm a cop. Is

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Speaker 3: there any think about the Bible a lot?

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Speaker 2: Though? Is there anything more fittingly like mid nineties than that?

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Speaker 2: It's just so, it is so perfect.

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Speaker 3: I love it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but yes, Christopher Walkin plays Gabriel born nineteen forty three.

432
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:48,000
Speaker 2: Does the Prophecy deliver on the prospect of Christopher Walkin

433
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:50,480
Speaker 2: playing a rebel angel at work in the modern world?

434
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:53,959
Speaker 2: I would say it absolutely does. He brings all of

435
00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:59,480
Speaker 2: his trademark weirdness, his intensity, consummate professionalism, and yeah, you

436
00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:03,040
Speaker 2: absolutely by that. This cat is an actual ethereal being,

437
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:09,320
Speaker 2: sniffing out cinners, sometimes licking gross surfaces as well, to

438
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:14,679
Speaker 2: find them in condemned schools and desert trailer communities in Arizona.

439
00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:17,480
Speaker 2: If we didn't mention already, this is an on the

440
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:20,080
Speaker 2: whole an Arizona movie. This is a desert movie.

441
00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:22,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, well parts of it are in La at the beginning,

442
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:25,119
Speaker 3: and then it moves to Arizona.

443
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:27,919
Speaker 2: Yeah right, But even that, I think there's only the

444
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:30,560
Speaker 2: church scene is shot in an actual church in LA.

445
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,159
Speaker 2: But I think when they're when we're getting like the

446
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:37,640
Speaker 2: La detective stuff, I think they're shooting Phoenix for La. Okay,

447
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:39,880
Speaker 2: the movie doesn't really come into its own until it's

448
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:42,000
Speaker 2: actually in the desert though, in my opinion.

449
00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:46,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, interesting fact that when we first meet Gabriel in

450
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:48,439
Speaker 3: the film, First of all, he shows up later than

451
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:51,440
Speaker 3: you would expect. If I had Christopher Walkin playing Gabriel

452
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:53,359
Speaker 3: in my movie, I would get him in within the

453
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,320
Speaker 3: first ten pages. But you got to wait like twenty

454
00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:58,240
Speaker 3: five minutes for him to show up in this movie.

455
00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:00,480
Speaker 3: But it is interesting that when we first meet him,

456
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,840
Speaker 3: he is playing an angel detective to mirror our main

457
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,879
Speaker 3: human character's human detective role. So he like arrives at

458
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,720
Speaker 3: the same crime scene, but uses a different set of

459
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:14,920
Speaker 3: tools to investigate, mainly his nose and his tongue.

460
00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:17,800
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, because he's an angel, all his senses

461
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:21,640
Speaker 2: are just you know, ramped up to twenty. He's not limited,

462
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,920
Speaker 2: so he can smell things and taste things, and yeah,

463
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:26,800
Speaker 2: he can look at things as well, and in ways

464
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:27,600
Speaker 2: that humans can't.

465
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:30,880
Speaker 3: When we did our core episodes about licking a few

466
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:32,800
Speaker 3: weeks ago, did you bring this up? I feel like

467
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:33,240
Speaker 3: you did.

468
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:35,199
Speaker 2: I brought in one of the I think it's the

469
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,600
Speaker 2: third one. The angels can lick human eyeballs to taste

470
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:44,280
Speaker 2: their memories. But we did briefly mention the Prophecy franchise. Okay,

471
00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:47,639
Speaker 2: So Walkin, of course, is always a treat. One of

472
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:50,199
Speaker 2: those great weird actors that just fills up the screen,

473
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:54,560
Speaker 2: often in very subtle ways. You know, he can be

474
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:58,200
Speaker 2: very minimalist in his approach, and of course can also

475
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:02,240
Speaker 2: go broad. You know, he has a very rhythmic style.

476
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:05,960
Speaker 2: He's great at movement. You see that dance background in

477
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 2: so much of what he does. I was reading about

478
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,680
Speaker 2: his influence, and I believe it was Benicio del Toro

479
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,440
Speaker 2: who stated that Walkin once him gave him a great

480
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:17,840
Speaker 2: piece of advice and said, when you're in a scene

481
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 2: and you don't know what you're going to do, don't

482
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 2: do anything, which which is also sounds humorous, but it

483
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:28,359
Speaker 2: sounds like there's a real nugget of truth there. And

484
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:30,440
Speaker 2: again you can see that in sort of the minimalist

485
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:33,320
Speaker 2: approach that he takes to things that he can be

486
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:39,680
Speaker 2: very entertaining and intense without you know, shaking and doing anything,

487
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:40,879
Speaker 2: notably on the screen.

488
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:45,000
Speaker 3: That is great advice, though, I just thinking about it now,

489
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:48,800
Speaker 3: I think that applies probably to some actors more than others,

490
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:52,960
Speaker 3: because there's a certain type of charisma that causes people

491
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:56,440
Speaker 3: to be in suspense when you are not in motion

492
00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:59,200
Speaker 3: or not doing anything. There's another way you can be

493
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:02,959
Speaker 3: where when you're not doing anything, people just register you

494
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:05,480
Speaker 3: as static and tune you out. Walkin is not in

495
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:08,199
Speaker 3: that camp. When he's not doing anything, you're looking at

496
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:10,119
Speaker 3: him going, what's he about to do? What's he going

497
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:10,399
Speaker 3: to do?

498
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, And so yeah, he's so entertaining when he's

499
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:16,640
Speaker 2: on the screen. And again, coming back to the fact

500
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:18,720
Speaker 2: that he shows up so late in this film, relatively

501
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:20,879
Speaker 2: twenty five minutes, then yeah, it's like it's not to

502
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:22,639
Speaker 2: say that the film is boring until he shows up.

503
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:24,639
Speaker 2: There's a lot of interesting things happening on the screen.

504
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:29,400
Speaker 2: But yeah, everything really takes on new energy when he's

505
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:31,160
Speaker 2: actually part of the film.

506
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 3: Yeah.

507
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:34,760
Speaker 2: So Walkin was the son of Scottish and German immigrants

508
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 2: in Queens and he has, I believe in interviews attributed

509
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:41,199
Speaker 2: some aspects of his signature delivery, sort of the Walkin

510
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:48,359
Speaker 2: accent that is so often reproduced by comedians and so forth.

511
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 2: But he's attributed to the plethora of accents he grew

512
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:55,800
Speaker 2: up around. His mother encouraged him and his brothers Ken

513
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 2: and Glenn to act as children, and they both continued

514
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 2: his other his siblings continued to act as well. I

515
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 2: think Ken with several credits in the fifties and sixties,

516
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:09,120
Speaker 2: Glenn threw around ninety one, and Chris also acted as

517
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 2: a child in extra parts with credits going back to

518
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:15,360
Speaker 2: nineteen fifty three. He was Ronnie Walkin at the time.

519
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 2: His birth name is Ronald, but then he ends up

520
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:22,879
Speaker 2: changing that professionally to Christopher or Chris later on. So,

521
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 2: as we've alluded to, he professionally trained in dance. He

522
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:30,680
Speaker 2: found work on stage and TV early on. He made

523
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,440
Speaker 2: his feature film debut in sixty nine's Me and My Brother,

524
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 2: followed by seventy one's The Anderson Tapes with Sean Connery

525
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 2: and The Mind Snatchers in seventy one with Joss Acklund.

526
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:44,000
Speaker 2: This was followed by The Sentinel and Annie Hall in

527
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 2: seventy seven, and of course, The Deer Hunter in seventy eight,

528
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:49,920
Speaker 2: for which he won an Academy Award for Best Supporting Actor.

529
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 2: Subsequent films of note leading into today's pick include nineteen

530
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 2: eighties Heaven's Gate, eighty one's Pennies from Heaven, eighty three's

531
00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 2: The Dead Zone. That's, of course, Cronenberg based on the

532
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 2: Stephen King novel eighty five's of You to a Kill,

533
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:04,960
Speaker 2: in which he played a Bond villain.

534
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:09,840
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, the guy who's doing something in Silicon Valley.

535
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 3: He's got a blimp.

536
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's a what He's a Silicon Valley Nazi test

537
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 2: tube baby? Is that right? Who does also have a

538
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:21,960
Speaker 2: limp with a trap door.

539
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 3: He's like, he's got like a pure white wig. I think,

540
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 3: is that right?

541
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 2: I remember that? Right?

542
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:27,920
Speaker 3: I don't.

543
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:31,040
Speaker 2: I don't remember what her white hair, but I do

544
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 2: I do vaguely remember the walkin energy in that one.

545
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 2: Let's see. We also had the likes of eighty nine's Communion,

546
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 2: nineteen nineties King of New York, ninety one's McBain, The

547
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:46,680
Speaker 2: action film Fain, ninety two's Batman Returns, ninety three's True Romance,

548
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 2: and of course ninety four is pulp fiction. That's a

549
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:51,719
Speaker 2: key one because we have a number of actors in

550
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:55,720
Speaker 2: this movie coming right hot on the heels of pulp

551
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 2: fiction success.

552
00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 3: Oh, you're right. It has Walking, it has Amanda Plumber,

553
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:03,520
Speaker 3: she's in pulp fiction. Oh, it took me a second

554
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:05,240
Speaker 3: to think of the other. But Eric Stultz, he's in

555
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:07,960
Speaker 3: pulp fiction. Though the characters, these three characters in pulp

556
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 3: fiction never interact with each other.

557
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, not that I remember. It's been a while since

558
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,240
Speaker 2: I sat down and watched pulp fiction, but but yeah,

559
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:17,200
Speaker 2: I don't offhand remember them having scenes together. So at

560
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 2: this point in his career, Walkin was very well established.

561
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 2: But he also had a reputation, and I think has

562
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:26,360
Speaker 2: for the most part, maintained this reputation of never turning

563
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:30,680
Speaker 2: down a role unless he had a scheduling commitment. You know,

564
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 2: there may have been cases where he turned something down

565
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,160
Speaker 2: for other reasons, but that was kind of the reputation

566
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 2: he had, you know, very professional and would generally do

567
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:39,960
Speaker 2: it and find something to love about whatever he was

568
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 2: working on. So he's continued to work in. His subsequent

569
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 2: roles include, in addition to two more Prophecy films, Let's

570
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:50,280
Speaker 2: See ninety six is bascyat ninety nine, Sweepy Hollow, the

571
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 2: two thousand and seven musical Hairspray, twenty twelve Seven Psychopaths,

572
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:57,240
Speaker 2: and then there's of course Dune Part two from twenty

573
00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:01,640
Speaker 2: twenty four, in which he plays the Padisha Emperor. Yeah. So, yeah,

574
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 2: I've never found a walk in performance whacking. Yeah, He's

575
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 2: always interesting to watch on screen, and his Gabriel here

576
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 2: is a nice mix of subdued menacing outsider, vicious, angelic

577
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 2: gangster and just snarling avian creep. So I love it.

578
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 2: The temperature comes up or it cools way down whenever

579
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 2: he's on screen.

580
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 3: So one impression I had of this movie, and it's

581
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 3: kind of hard to say why. Maybe it's because the

582
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 3: angels are always sniffing the air, but it feels to

583
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 3: me like a pungent films. You can kind of smell it,

584
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:36,320
Speaker 3: and it doesn't necessarily smell good. It's sharp, strong, going

585
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 3: into the scent receptors in there. And this really matches

586
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 3: up with a trivia story you were telling me about

587
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:44,960
Speaker 3: walking on set.

588
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:48,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, so there's this whole thing, so there are a

589
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:50,720
Speaker 2: couple of different angles on it. There have been various

590
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:55,040
Speaker 2: actors in this film that have mentioned that the Christopher

591
00:31:55,080 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 2: Walkin would chew a whole raw clothes of garlic before

592
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 2: his scenes, to the extent that you would like smell

593
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:06,840
Speaker 2: the garlic before he entered the room, sort of a situation,

594
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:09,840
Speaker 2: and then there would be a strong aura of garlic

595
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:13,880
Speaker 2: on him during the scenes. And some of these actors

596
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:17,880
Speaker 2: speculated that he was doing it in order to provoke

597
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:23,280
Speaker 2: a kind of visceral, repulsive response on behalf of his

598
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:29,240
Speaker 2: fellow actors to the presence of Gabriel. That's one possibility.

599
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:33,160
Speaker 3: I had another thought about this, which is that while

600
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 3: watching the movie, I noticed in several ways the angels

601
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 3: are kind of inverse vampires. They are like holy vampires.

602
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:45,479
Speaker 3: I was thinking about this in several ways. One is

603
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,840
Speaker 3: that in order to kill them, you have to attack

604
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 3: the heart. It's like the stake through the heart of

605
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 3: the vampire. You have to pull out the heart of

606
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 3: the angel in order to finally slay them. In their

607
00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 3: earthly form, they have some vampiric or certainly in the

608
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:08,560
Speaker 3: nineties movie Lexicon vampiric imagery about them. You know, this

609
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 3: was a time where we were seeing a lot of

610
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:14,480
Speaker 3: movies with vampires in trench codes, walking around sunglasses and stuff,

611
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:18,720
Speaker 3: So there's that angle too. But also, especially with Gabriel,

612
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:22,240
Speaker 3: he often has makeup that makes him look like a

613
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 3: movie vampire.

614
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:25,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, very pale and then the dark hair.

615
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 3: And he creates vampires familiars. Did you think about this

616
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,560
Speaker 3: with the character Jerry and then Amanda Plummer's character he

617
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 3: is he a big part of his character is that

618
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:39,840
Speaker 3: he has to go out recruiting renfields. But anyway, I

619
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:42,200
Speaker 3: guess I got kind of sidetracked there. So if these

620
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:46,560
Speaker 3: are being imagined as holy vampires, they're like the vampires

621
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 3: of Heaven, would that mean that instead of being defeated

622
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:52,960
Speaker 3: by garlic, they must consume garlic, so they're literally just

623
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 3: chewing raw garlic all the time.

624
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 2: It's like a holy power.

625
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 3: It fits. Yeah, yeah, I don't. Kind of like with

626
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 3: the regular vampire, you have to know all the heart

627
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 3: in with these, with these vampires of Heaven, you have

628
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 3: to take the heart out, you know, It's like you're

629
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:06,400
Speaker 3: going the opposite.

630
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 2: I like it. I like it to the point that

631
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:12,680
Speaker 2: if they were to ever remake and relaunch this franchise,

632
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:15,319
Speaker 2: and I don't think they should. And because you could

633
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:18,040
Speaker 2: never get anybody to really play it would be hard

634
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:21,440
Speaker 2: to find somebody that really had the Walkan kind of

635
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:24,280
Speaker 2: energy here. But that would be a great thing to add,

636
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 2: is that all the all the angels in the film

637
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 2: have to eat garlic all the time, raw garlic all

638
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:29,480
Speaker 2: the time.

639
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 3: Yeah. So so one idea, they're always touching silver. They

640
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:36,480
Speaker 3: get two reflections in a mirror.

641
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 2: I like it. It writes itself. Yeah, but so so

642
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 2: one idea is that that Walkin was eating garlic all

643
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 2: the time for the project. But the other, and I

644
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:48,799
Speaker 2: think Wyden himself says that this is the case in

645
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:51,719
Speaker 2: one of the extras on the Vinegar Syndrome, just is

646
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:55,240
Speaker 2: that this is just something Christopher Walken does or did,

647
00:34:55,800 --> 00:35:00,720
Speaker 2: just chewing raw garlic, and it's just he likes garlic,

648
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 2: Like he's actually had published recipes for, I think, like

649
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:07,160
Speaker 2: some sort of garlic seafood dish, Like he loves cooking

650
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 2: with garlic, and he likes eating raw garlic. And you

651
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:13,320
Speaker 2: know that's not personally my thing, eating the raw garlic,

652
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:16,360
Speaker 2: cook with it all the time. But garlic is super

653
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:19,800
Speaker 2: healthy for you, so there may be various health benefits

654
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:21,840
Speaker 2: to just chewing it raw all the time.

655
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:25,160
Speaker 3: I've never gone that route, but I am a garlic fiend,

656
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:27,239
Speaker 3: you know. I think a lot of people do this,

657
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 3: but I any recipe that tells me a quantity of garlic,

658
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:34,560
Speaker 3: I'm gonna at least double it all.

659
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:36,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have often found like I have

660
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:40,279
Speaker 2: never made something with too much garlic. It's generally as

661
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:43,600
Speaker 2: much garlic as I can bring myself to peel and

662
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:47,040
Speaker 2: chop at a given point, and so it depends on

663
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:49,160
Speaker 2: the size of the garlic. But then I've also felt

664
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:50,560
Speaker 2: like if you get the really big garlic, like the

665
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:53,160
Speaker 2: elephant garlic, it doesn't have the same flavor. At least

666
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:54,920
Speaker 2: the time I tried the elephant garlic, I was like,

667
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:57,200
Speaker 2: that's so big, it'll be so easy to peel, right,

668
00:35:57,280 --> 00:35:58,440
Speaker 2: And then I get it and it's like it's not

669
00:35:58,480 --> 00:35:59,080
Speaker 2: as flavorful.

670
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:02,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, get that stuff. You just you gotta do the work.

671
00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:04,320
Speaker 3: You just gotta feel it. That's the price of garlic.

672
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:07,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right. So we'll have much more to say

673
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:11,799
Speaker 2: about Walkins Gabriel as we continue, but more angels here

674
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:15,320
Speaker 2: as we mentioned. Eric Stoltz born nineteen sixty one plays

675
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 2: the angel Simon. Even when I saw it as a teenager,

676
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:22,320
Speaker 2: I was like, there are so many cool angel names,

677
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:25,680
Speaker 2: either biblical or from like the various occult lore out there.

678
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 2: Why go with Simon? Why not go with something like

679
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:31,880
Speaker 2: Mathathiel or whatever? You know, there's so many cool angel names.

680
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:32,880
Speaker 2: Why Simon?

681
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:38,400
Speaker 3: Multiple characters in this movie have names that are again

682
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:40,879
Speaker 3: not trying to hate on it, but in a very

683
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:44,120
Speaker 3: on the nose way establish the themes of the character,

684
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:48,799
Speaker 3: Like our main doubting priest, his name is Thomas, doubting Thomas.

685
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:50,759
Speaker 3: So I was wondering if something like that is going

686
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:53,880
Speaker 3: on with Simon. Is he supposed to be? I don't know.

687
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:56,600
Speaker 3: Is a theme about his character that he echoes a

688
00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:58,280
Speaker 3: major Simon in the Bible?

689
00:36:59,040 --> 00:36:59,360
Speaker 2: I don't know.

690
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 3: I couldn't really find anything like that, So it just

691
00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:02,760
Speaker 3: seems like he's called Simon.

692
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:07,360
Speaker 2: Well, at any rate, he is an angel and essentially

693
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 2: our good angel, or he's our loyal angel. He's like

694
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:12,879
Speaker 2: still on God's team, is he?

695
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:16,640
Speaker 3: I have questions about the mechanics of the Angel war

696
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:21,680
Speaker 3: because the only characters in the movie where I was

697
00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:25,200
Speaker 3: fully sure that they were in the war in Heaven

698
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:27,719
Speaker 3: and which side they were on are Gabriel and then

699
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:31,120
Speaker 3: his henchman Guy Uziel, who we see earlier. So they're

700
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 3: on one side in the war in Heaven. Simon is

701
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:39,400
Speaker 3: acting against their purposes, but he actually on the other side.

702
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:42,040
Speaker 3: He talks like he's not part of the war, like

703
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:44,719
Speaker 3: he's he says like, I'm tired of this war. He

704
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:47,719
Speaker 3: talks about it like he doesn't want to be involved

705
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:50,360
Speaker 3: with the war and he's trying to make it stop

706
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:51,000
Speaker 3: or something.

707
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:53,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, he does feel more neutral. That's a good point.

708
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:56,719
Speaker 3: But maybe I don't know. Maybe that's just how you know.

709
00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:59,319
Speaker 3: I guess a lot of times within a conflict, people

710
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:01,920
Speaker 3: see them so elves as you know, even if you're

711
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 3: on one side, you're like, well, my side is the

712
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 3: default and the correct side, so I'm not really a partisan.

713
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:07,320
Speaker 3: I'm neutral.

714
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:11,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, all right, Well again. Eric Stult's coming in

715
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:14,480
Speaker 2: hot off of Pulp Fiction, in which he played Lance,

716
00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 2: the drug Dealer. His TV credits go back to seventy

717
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:19,640
Speaker 2: eight and his first film role was eighty two's Fast

718
00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:22,240
Speaker 2: Times at Ridgemont High. He was nominated for a Golden

719
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:24,799
Speaker 2: Clove for his role in eighty five's The Mask and

720
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:27,480
Speaker 2: other big films include Let's See eighty nine's The Fly

721
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:31,239
Speaker 2: To where he plays son of Brundle Say Anything. From

722
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 2: the same year ninety six is Jerry Maguire ninety seven's Anaconda.

723
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:38,440
Speaker 2: Ooh yeah, did he get eaten by snake in that?

724
00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 3: No he doesn't, He's not in a lot of the movie.

725
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:44,160
Speaker 3: He's there setting him up at the beginning like he's

726
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:46,520
Speaker 3: gonna be one of the main characters of the film.

727
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 3: But then in sort of the end of act one,

728
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:51,799
Speaker 3: he gets an injury that places him in bed for

729
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 3: the rest of the movie.

730
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:56,239
Speaker 2: Oh man, Yeah, okay, no snake action for him, all right.

731
00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:58,479
Speaker 3: He does not get eaten, Yeah, he gets he gets

732
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:01,600
Speaker 3: sabotaged by John Voyce. I think one day we're gonna

733
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:03,680
Speaker 3: have to do anaconda because it's one of my favorite

734
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:05,879
Speaker 3: creature features. It's just a it's a hoot.

735
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:08,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll have to come back to that one. So

736
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:11,239
Speaker 2: in general, Eric Stultz here, you know, I like him.

737
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:14,800
Speaker 2: I think he has a good ethereal weird energy, you know,

738
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:18,680
Speaker 2: comes off more neutral good. But also, like all the

739
00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:21,399
Speaker 2: angels in this film, like every all the angels are

740
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:24,960
Speaker 2: played is sort of weird, potentially dangerous hobos.

741
00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:29,360
Speaker 3: Vaguely threatening, even though not as threatening as Christopher Walken.

742
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:34,560
Speaker 3: He they give him an His sort of outfit and

743
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:38,799
Speaker 3: grooming in this movie is kind of grunge band, Like, yeah,

744
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:41,000
Speaker 3: it looks like he could be a member of Pearl Jam.

745
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:43,719
Speaker 2: I think so. Yeah, yeah, So it's kind of like

746
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:50,120
Speaker 2: in just considering Simon versus Gabriel, it's kind of grunge

747
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:53,400
Speaker 2: versus what post punk industrial or something, I don't know,

748
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:54,440
Speaker 2: a little bit of goth.

749
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:58,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, Gabriel is more goth and and Simon is grunge.

750
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:10,200
Speaker 2: A couple of more angels here, though this first one

751
00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 2: I guess technically devil at this point, but former angel

752
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:16,319
Speaker 2: laid in the picture Lucifer is going to make his

753
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:20,560
Speaker 2: presence known, and he is played by Vigo Mordensen born

754
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:23,440
Speaker 2: nineteen fifty eight. Yes, the man who had become Aragorn

755
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:25,759
Speaker 2: in the Peter Jackson Lord of the Rings movies, and

756
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:28,279
Speaker 2: then go on to star in such pictures as a

757
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:31,440
Speaker 2: number of Cronenberg films, A History of Violence in two

758
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:34,200
Speaker 2: thousand and five, Eastern Promises in two thousand and seven,

759
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:37,400
Speaker 2: for which he was nominated for an Oscar Dangerous Method

760
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:39,840
Speaker 2: in twenty eleven and two thousand and two's Crimes of

761
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:40,400
Speaker 2: the Future.

762
00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:43,640
Speaker 3: I think Eastern Promises. Isn't that the one where he

763
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:46,680
Speaker 3: has the naked fight scene against the guys with the

764
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:47,920
Speaker 3: putty knives?

765
00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:52,640
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, brutal, brutal action sequence there, let's see also

766
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:55,760
Speaker 2: two thousand and nine's The Road, Speaking of brutal twenty

767
00:40:55,800 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 2: Sixteens Captain fantastic Oscar nomination there in twenty eighteen book

768
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:05,120
Speaker 2: also an Oscar nominated performance. Prior to all of that,

769
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:07,439
Speaker 2: though his film credits they go back to eighty four,

770
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:10,000
Speaker 2: with a made for TV George Washington movie. He did

771
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:13,399
Speaker 2: not play George Washington was supporting role, but he also

772
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 2: had a supporting role in eighty five's Witness and then

773
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:20,920
Speaker 2: some horror movie roles that included eighty seven's Prison and

774
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:25,040
Speaker 2: of course nineteen nineties leather Face. The Texas Chainsaw Massacre three,

775
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:28,879
Speaker 2: he plays a handsome Texan named Text who turns out

776
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:31,600
Speaker 2: to uh oh, be part of the cannibal saw Your Plan.

777
00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:36,839
Speaker 3: Never seen the Texas Chainsaw movies past two. You kind

778
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:39,239
Speaker 3: of can't do better than two, So I almost don't

779
00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:40,000
Speaker 3: want to see more.

780
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:42,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's been a long time since I

781
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:46,560
Speaker 2: saw three. Three as I recall, was like a weird

782
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:50,719
Speaker 2: mix of sequel and remake of the first one, and

783
00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:54,839
Speaker 2: I remember thinking, oh, man, he's really going for it,

784
00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:58,879
Speaker 2: playing this handsome cannibal, but in a way where he's

785
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:00,920
Speaker 2: almost too good in it, where he kind of steals

786
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:04,160
Speaker 2: the show and outshines everything else that's going on there.

787
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:06,560
Speaker 2: Similar thing actually happens in the next one with Matthew

788
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:12,759
Speaker 2: McConaughey playing like a crazy, handsome textan cannibal in a way.

789
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:14,960
Speaker 2: I think he's one of the cannibals in that or

790
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:16,919
Speaker 2: he's part of the Illuminati. I don't know. That One's

791
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:25,960
Speaker 2: a very confusing picture, but they do so anyway. All

792
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:29,120
Speaker 2: I'm saying is that before he became famous for, uh,

793
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:34,440
Speaker 2: these other roles, Mortensen definitely had some strong, nasty villain

794
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:37,480
Speaker 2: energy that he got to inject into some of his performances.

795
00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:40,400
Speaker 2: And that's what we get here. We get weird energy

796
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:47,000
Speaker 2: villain Vigo playing a Miltonian satan by way of ninety sensibilities,

797
00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:52,879
Speaker 2: snarling and also scatological energy, talks a fair amount about

798
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:56,759
Speaker 2: poop in his sequences, and he famously requested to pull

799
00:42:56,800 --> 00:43:00,360
Speaker 2: a rose out of his butt. During the introductions sequence

800
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:02,759
Speaker 2: for his character, He's like, I'll do it, but I

801
00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:05,239
Speaker 2: need to pull a rose out of my butt, and

802
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:09,799
Speaker 2: he has a rose. It doesn't play like that in

803
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:12,400
Speaker 2: the finished film, but I think it speaks volumes to

804
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:13,439
Speaker 2: what he was trying to do here.

805
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:18,480
Speaker 3: Full of ideas, strong late film appearance there are This

806
00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:22,239
Speaker 3: movie does keep adding characters later in the you know,

807
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:25,320
Speaker 3: there's only twenty minutes left and they're adding new characters.

808
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:28,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, what if we introduced Satan as a pivotal character,

809
00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:30,799
Speaker 2: not just when you first see him you think, oh,

810
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:32,799
Speaker 2: it's just a full cameo, But no, he becomes an

811
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:36,920
Speaker 2: important character. And apparently Morningsen was a last minute replacement

812
00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:40,799
Speaker 2: for Malcolm McDowell, whoa the Star Trek movie where he

813
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:42,080
Speaker 2: kills Captain Kirk.

814
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:47,279
Speaker 3: Wait, he couldn't do this because he was doing that right, right,

815
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:49,879
Speaker 3: that was a Star Trek Generations or something.

816
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:53,279
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, so, I mean Malcolm McDowell certainly could have

817
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:55,080
Speaker 2: played Satan in this, but I don't know. I end

818
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:59,319
Speaker 2: up like having the the the younger energy that we

819
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:00,399
Speaker 2: get with Vigo here.

820
00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:02,480
Speaker 3: He does some good heart eating at the end.

821
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:06,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, And then we mentioned the Angel you seel.

822
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:11,120
Speaker 2: He is played by Jeff Cadente, stuntman and actor who

823
00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:13,200
Speaker 2: also worked on ninety four is the Crow in episodes

824
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:15,959
Speaker 2: of Star Trek, Deep Space nine and Voyager. He also

825
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:18,120
Speaker 2: worked a lot as a stunt coordinator I and on

826
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:20,520
Speaker 2: some pretty big films. But I think he does have

827
00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:22,320
Speaker 2: lines in here off the top of my head. I

828
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:24,200
Speaker 2: don't know if he's actually saying those lines or if

829
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:28,800
Speaker 2: it's dubbed. But cool looking character. This is our sunglasses angel.

830
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:31,200
Speaker 2: We'll come back to him. Yeah, all right, let's get

831
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:37,000
Speaker 2: to the humans. Our actual narrative protagonist is Detective Thomas Daggett.

832
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:43,160
Speaker 2: That's a great name, played by Elias Kataeus. Here again

833
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:47,000
Speaker 2: hilariously and fittingly nineties deal here where we have a

834
00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:48,840
Speaker 2: priest turned homicide detective.

835
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:54,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, well the city, it'll grind you down. Man.

836
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:59,840
Speaker 2: So for Kataas, I generally think of him in reference

837
00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:02,440
Speaker 2: to two pictures. For first of all Cronenberg's Crash from

838
00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:05,480
Speaker 2: ninety six that would come after this movie, but then

839
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:08,319
Speaker 2: also Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles in nineteen ninety, in which

840
00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:12,480
Speaker 2: he played Casey Jones, the hockey mask wearing hockey stick

841
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:14,960
Speaker 2: wielding vigilanti street vigilantie.

842
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:17,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, I remember him from that. I thought he was

843
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:19,440
Speaker 3: very cool when I was good. Yeah.

844
00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:22,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, he got to kill Shredder with a garbage truck,

845
00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:26,160
Speaker 2: as I recall, he remember that detail. Yeah, yeah, like

846
00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:28,319
Speaker 2: Shredder falls into a garbage truck and then he's like

847
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:30,080
Speaker 2: oops and he crushes him.

848
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:32,879
Speaker 3: Shredder's never really dead.

849
00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:36,200
Speaker 2: You can't kill Shredder. He's an idea, right, He's a concept.

850
00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:38,960
Speaker 2: But at any rate. He also did the sequels, the

851
00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:42,920
Speaker 2: Turtles sequels. Canadian actor of Greek descent. His other credits

852
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:47,439
Speaker 2: include nineteen nineties Almost An Angel, ninety three, Cyboard, two

853
00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:51,480
Speaker 2: ninety seven's Gatica, ninety eight's Fallen apt Pupil and The

854
00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:55,080
Speaker 2: Thin Red Line, Quite a Year, two thousand and seven, Zodiac,

855
00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:57,640
Speaker 2: and twenty ten Shutter Island. Yeah.

856
00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:00,640
Speaker 3: I remember him in Zodiac. He's one of the he's

857
00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:02,560
Speaker 3: one of the police detectives.

858
00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:04,960
Speaker 2: Who I think he played a lot of detectives. Yeah, time.

859
00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:11,640
Speaker 3: So this is not an insult to Kotaeus, who I

860
00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:13,719
Speaker 3: like in basically everything. I've seen him, and I think

861
00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:16,480
Speaker 3: he's a good actor. But I think none of the

862
00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 3: human characters in this movie are really allowed to breathe.

863
00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:23,480
Speaker 3: I mean, and this character is supposed to be like

864
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:27,759
Speaker 3: he's really the protagonist, you know, And it's the movies

865
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:32,120
Speaker 3: the movie's core, I don't know. Heavier themes are about,

866
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:35,080
Speaker 3: like his loss of faith and his struggle with his

867
00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:40,040
Speaker 3: relationship with God and with the understanding of souls, which

868
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:43,120
Speaker 3: is very murky and now it's plotted out at the end,

869
00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:47,440
Speaker 3: but I think this the human elements are the weakest

870
00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:50,960
Speaker 3: point of the film for me. It's the movie is

871
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:55,120
Speaker 3: clearly having a lot more fun and is showing a

872
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:57,839
Speaker 3: lot more of its virtues when it's just letting the

873
00:46:57,880 --> 00:46:59,960
Speaker 3: angels play around and be wise.

874
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:04,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I absolutely agree. He's a fine actor, but the

875
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:06,760
Speaker 2: role here tends to feel a lot like a video

876
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:10,719
Speaker 2: game point of view Avatar, where we just encounter all

877
00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:15,279
Speaker 2: of the interesting and weird characters through him, which, yeah,

878
00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:18,879
Speaker 2: is just the sort of movie it is. Yeah, all right,

879
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:23,080
Speaker 2: Other Humans. Virginia Madson plays Catherine born nineteen sixty one.

880
00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:26,200
Speaker 2: This is our third Virginia Madson film that we've discussed

881
00:47:26,239 --> 00:47:28,600
Speaker 2: on the show, the other two being, of course, nineteen

882
00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:31,840
Speaker 2: ninety two is Highlander two and nineteen eighty four's Dune,

883
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:36,480
Speaker 2: in which she plays the Padisha Emperor's daughter, Princess Irulin.

884
00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:40,239
Speaker 2: So pretty notable here that, of course Walkin would go

885
00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:42,560
Speaker 2: on to play the Padisha Emperor in the more recent

886
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:46,560
Speaker 2: do An adaptation. Yeah, but she's an Oscar nominated actress

887
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:50,439
Speaker 2: two thousand and five Sideways. Other pictures include nineteen eighty

888
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:55,640
Speaker 2: four's Electric Dreams, ninety two's Candy Man, and various other projects.

889
00:47:56,040 --> 00:47:59,080
Speaker 2: She is, of course the sister of Michael Madson. Again,

890
00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:01,759
Speaker 2: I think she does a perfect fine job here in

891
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:04,719
Speaker 2: what can feel like a second fiddle human role in

892
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:06,360
Speaker 2: a movie about weirdo angels.

893
00:48:06,719 --> 00:48:09,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, same thing I said about Elias Katais I think

894
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:11,719
Speaker 3: applies here. I always like Virginia Madsen. I've liked her

895
00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:14,959
Speaker 3: in all the movies we've covered, but her character does

896
00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:18,640
Speaker 3: not have the room to breathe here amid all of

897
00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:22,839
Speaker 3: the angel business. I think, Yeah, she's portrayed as just

898
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:27,000
Speaker 3: like a basically good person who's there to be, you know,

899
00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:31,480
Speaker 3: a helpful, helpful caregiver to this child who becomes endangered,

900
00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:33,200
Speaker 3: and it's going to become the focal point of the

901
00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:35,600
Speaker 3: moral struggle at the end of the movie.

902
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:39,000
Speaker 2: That's right. Yeah, So these are the two most human characters.

903
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:41,319
Speaker 2: The ones we're going to get to next are all

904
00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:45,799
Speaker 2: Even if they are human, they're changed in a way.

905
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:48,080
Speaker 2: Either they have some sort of either they have a

906
00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:52,120
Speaker 2: war criminal soul like hiding their body, or they are

907
00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:56,440
Speaker 2: thralls that have been brought back to life to serve angels.

908
00:48:56,480 --> 00:49:00,239
Speaker 2: You know, an angel's familiar if you will. Yeah. Yeah,

909
00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:04,160
Speaker 2: we have Adam Goldberg playing Jerry born nineteen seventy, American

910
00:49:04,239 --> 00:49:08,440
Speaker 2: character actor who frequently plays scenes stealing supporting roles, and

911
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:11,880
Speaker 2: here does a solid job as the movies morbidly comedic

912
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:16,040
Speaker 2: undead thrall that serves Gabriel. So you've seen Goldberg in

913
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:19,400
Speaker 2: tons of things on TV and screen, including ninety sevens

914
00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:22,600
Speaker 2: Dazed and Confused, ninety eight Saving Private Ryan, two thousand

915
00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:26,320
Speaker 2: and one's Waking Life, and two thousand and seven Zodiac. Yeah.

916
00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:30,040
Speaker 3: So this is our Renfield number one, yeah, film, and

917
00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:33,080
Speaker 3: then Renfield number two is played by Amanda Plumber.

918
00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:37,560
Speaker 2: That's right, we've discussed Amanda Plumber before. Born nineteen fifty seven,

919
00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:40,560
Speaker 2: daughter of the late great Christopher Plumber, best known for

920
00:49:40,640 --> 00:49:43,800
Speaker 2: pulp fiction and ninety one's The Fisher King. She often

921
00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:47,440
Speaker 2: plays characters with a fantastic kind of frantic energy. Just

922
00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:51,200
Speaker 2: a wonderful character actor. She was also in an excellent

923
00:49:51,239 --> 00:49:53,920
Speaker 2: episode of the nineteen nineties Outer Limits series titled A

924
00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:58,000
Speaker 2: Stitch in Time. She plays a time traveling doctor who

925
00:49:58,080 --> 00:50:03,000
Speaker 2: is like an avengeful time traveler. She actually won an

926
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:06,440
Speaker 2: Emmy for that. We previously discussed her because she played

927
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:10,240
Speaker 2: a shotgun toting Future nine in nineteen ninety two's.

928
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:12,120
Speaker 3: Free Jack Awesome Get the Meat.

929
00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:14,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say the main thing here Amanda Plumber

930
00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:16,920
Speaker 2: is as great as always, but she's barely in this.

931
00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:19,640
Speaker 2: She's just almost criminally underutilized here.

932
00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:23,400
Speaker 3: It is. It feels like a weird choice. It almost

933
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:26,400
Speaker 3: feels like they would have done more with this character

934
00:50:26,520 --> 00:50:28,360
Speaker 3: but ran out of time or something.

935
00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:30,799
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I'm not sure it.

936
00:50:30,719 --> 00:50:33,680
Speaker 3: Happens so late. This is another like Viga Mortenson shows

937
00:50:33,760 --> 00:50:35,360
Speaker 3: up in the last twenty minutes of the movie.

938
00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:38,120
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, like I knew she was rewatching it. It

939
00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:40,000
Speaker 2: was like I knew that she was in it, but

940
00:50:40,040 --> 00:50:42,040
Speaker 2: then I'd forgotten she was going to be in it

941
00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:44,920
Speaker 2: by the time we got to her. All right. Up next,

942
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:49,360
Speaker 2: we have Mariah Shining Dove Snyder playing Mary born nineteen

943
00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:53,040
Speaker 2: eighty three, American child actor of Shoshone heritage who was

944
00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:56,959
Speaker 2: active in commercials and live musicals. She only has four

945
00:50:57,000 --> 00:50:59,319
Speaker 2: TV and film credits. So we have ninety five's the

946
00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:02,759
Speaker 2: Brady Bunch of a voice role on an episode of

947
00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:06,680
Speaker 2: ninety five's Ah Real Monsters, and then she reprives this

948
00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:10,799
Speaker 2: role in Prophecy three, the assent so important part of

949
00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:12,320
Speaker 2: the franchise that would say.

950
00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:14,719
Speaker 3: I'm a little trouble that this character would have to

951
00:51:14,760 --> 00:51:17,480
Speaker 3: come back for a sequel, like can the Angels just

952
00:51:17,560 --> 00:51:18,799
Speaker 3: leave her alone? After this?

953
00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:23,080
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, she goes through a lot here, becomes the

954
00:51:23,160 --> 00:51:28,640
Speaker 2: unwitting host for a Grown Man's a grown male war

955
00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:32,320
Speaker 2: criminal soul as we'll discuss, but she plays a pimpicook

956
00:51:32,360 --> 00:51:36,200
Speaker 2: part here. And speaking of that war criminal, yeah, the

957
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:40,520
Speaker 2: late Colonel Arnold Hawthorne unspeaking role, just playing a corpse here,

958
00:51:40,560 --> 00:51:43,600
Speaker 2: we have Patrick McAllister. He just has a couple of

959
00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:46,200
Speaker 2: other credits, but they include seventy three's Black Caesar and

960
00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:49,879
Speaker 2: seventy four's It's Alive. But he's just a corpse here,

961
00:51:50,719 --> 00:51:53,319
Speaker 2: all right, And then real quickly here the composer here

962
00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:56,600
Speaker 2: is David Williams, a prolific composer who scored a great

963
00:51:56,640 --> 00:51:59,040
Speaker 2: deal of TV and film projects over the years, including

964
00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:04,840
Speaker 2: nineteen nineties Shakma The Killer Killer. Was it an April Monkey?

965
00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:07,040
Speaker 2: I can't even remember. I've only ever seen the amazing

966
00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:09,320
Speaker 2: trailer that's about I've seen Shakma.

967
00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:12,480
Speaker 3: It's a movie I think as Roddy McDowell where they

968
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:16,040
Speaker 3: play some medical researchers or something who get locked in

969
00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:19,160
Speaker 3: a building with a with a mad baboon who's just

970
00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:20,680
Speaker 3: running around biting everybody.

971
00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:22,920
Speaker 2: Yeah. It's the sort of very sort of film that

972
00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:25,560
Speaker 2: I animal film that I really don't want to see,

973
00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:31,200
Speaker 2: especially today, But it has an undeniably amazing trailer where

974
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:34,400
Speaker 2: the narrator keeps saying Shakma and it finally just says

975
00:52:34,760 --> 00:52:40,400
Speaker 2: Chakma Shakma. Yeah, yeah, very good. Anyway, Williams scored that

976
00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:43,480
Speaker 2: He scored Critters three in ninety one, ninety eight, Stantums

977
00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:47,000
Speaker 2: two thousand, Supernova, and many others. I would say on

978
00:52:47,080 --> 00:52:51,200
Speaker 2: the whole, you know, just an effective score. But it

979
00:52:51,239 --> 00:52:54,000
Speaker 2: does have some really nice moments that seem to include

980
00:52:54,040 --> 00:52:57,000
Speaker 2: some like indigenous motifs. When we get more into the

981
00:52:57,080 --> 00:53:01,200
Speaker 2: late film desert setting that I you know, accurate or not.

982
00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:03,520
Speaker 2: That the sonic vibe is pretty cool.

983
00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:15,200
Speaker 3: All right, are you ready to talk about the plot?

984
00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:17,160
Speaker 2: Let's do it. Let's get into the plot of the

985
00:53:17,160 --> 00:53:19,759
Speaker 2: prophecy and maybe even figure out what is the prophecy

986
00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:20,799
Speaker 2: the title refers to.

987
00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:23,800
Speaker 3: I think I figured that out. I think it's the

988
00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:27,600
Speaker 3: lost chapter of the Bible that dude finds later. But

989
00:53:27,840 --> 00:53:29,400
Speaker 3: all right, I don't know. We can discuss when we

990
00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:29,759
Speaker 3: get to that.

991
00:53:29,960 --> 00:53:30,960
Speaker 2: Let's get theological.

992
00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:33,800
Speaker 3: So we get an opening monologue that begins as a

993
00:53:34,600 --> 00:53:39,000
Speaker 3: whispered voiceover we hear I remember the First War, the

994
00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:43,239
Speaker 3: way the sky burned, the faces of angels destroyed, And

995
00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:46,920
Speaker 3: then we open on an overhead shot of a parched,

996
00:53:47,040 --> 00:53:51,640
Speaker 3: red desert landscape with the skeleton of an angel lying

997
00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:53,640
Speaker 3: in the dust. Kind of rob I think you referred

998
00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:55,279
Speaker 3: to it as an angel splat.

999
00:53:57,200 --> 00:53:59,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's either an angel splat or an abandoned photo

1000
00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:01,600
Speaker 2: shoot for a nine inch Nails album cover.

1001
00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:06,040
Speaker 3: Yes, the skeleton angel splat on the ground. So you've

1002
00:54:06,080 --> 00:54:12,320
Speaker 3: got wingbones outstretched around a human skeleton, and then standing

1003
00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:16,080
Speaker 3: over this splat is a long haired human figure. The

1004
00:54:16,120 --> 00:54:19,200
Speaker 3: camera slowly glides down to the standing figure and sort

1005
00:54:19,239 --> 00:54:21,200
Speaker 3: of pivots around to bring him into view while the

1006
00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:25,200
Speaker 3: voiceover continues and it says, I saw a third of

1007
00:54:25,239 --> 00:54:29,120
Speaker 3: Heaven's legion banished and the creation of Hell. I stood

1008
00:54:29,160 --> 00:54:32,520
Speaker 3: with my brothers and watched Lucifer fall. But now my

1009
00:54:32,600 --> 00:54:35,560
Speaker 3: brothers are not brothers, and we have come here where

1010
00:54:35,560 --> 00:54:39,239
Speaker 3: we are mortal, to steal the dark soul, not yet Lucifers,

1011
00:54:39,560 --> 00:54:42,520
Speaker 3: to serve our cause. I have always obeyed, but I

1012
00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:44,440
Speaker 3: never thought the war would happen again.

1013
00:54:45,600 --> 00:54:47,840
Speaker 2: So there we have it. The war is happening. This

1014
00:54:48,520 --> 00:54:52,640
Speaker 2: movie will continue to roll out. There is a second

1015
00:54:52,680 --> 00:54:55,239
Speaker 2: war in Heaven again, the first being the rebellion of

1016
00:54:55,320 --> 00:54:58,120
Speaker 2: Lucifer and a third of Heaven's angels. It took place

1017
00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:01,560
Speaker 2: before the creation of Man. This second war in Heaven

1018
00:55:02,800 --> 00:55:06,480
Speaker 2: uncertain about when it actually kicked off, but is still ongoing. Yes.

1019
00:55:07,280 --> 00:55:08,920
Speaker 3: Oh, and then, by the way, we finally see the

1020
00:55:08,960 --> 00:55:11,680
Speaker 3: person's face when the camera comes around. It's Eric Stolts

1021
00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:15,680
Speaker 3: with long hair and a goatee again as a grunge band. Look,

1022
00:55:15,960 --> 00:55:18,600
Speaker 3: he has pure black eyes or no eyes really, just

1023
00:55:18,680 --> 00:55:21,839
Speaker 3: like empty hollow sockets. And then he blinks and then

1024
00:55:21,880 --> 00:55:22,759
Speaker 3: he has normalized.

1025
00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:25,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess that's maybe an illusion he puts on

1026
00:55:25,520 --> 00:55:29,160
Speaker 2: for us uncertain The eyeball question will remain throughout the picture.

1027
00:55:29,719 --> 00:55:32,759
Speaker 2: Do angels pretend to have eyes in these forms? I'm

1028
00:55:32,800 --> 00:55:33,200
Speaker 2: not sure?

1029
00:55:34,320 --> 00:55:38,399
Speaker 3: So credits play over some sick Gregorian chants and we're

1030
00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:42,319
Speaker 3: looking at decorations from cathedrals and statues of angels, very

1031
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:46,560
Speaker 3: much establishing the angel motif. And then we cut to

1032
00:55:46,760 --> 00:55:49,640
Speaker 3: the inside of a Catholic church where some type of

1033
00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:54,800
Speaker 3: ordination creed is being recited by a bishop while a

1034
00:55:54,920 --> 00:55:58,879
Speaker 3: procession moves down the aisle. I initially typed out this

1035
00:55:59,320 --> 00:56:01,320
Speaker 3: text because like, are we going to is this important?

1036
00:56:01,360 --> 00:56:03,160
Speaker 3: Are we gonna need to know this? But no, it's

1037
00:56:03,239 --> 00:56:06,319
Speaker 3: not important. That it seems to be adapted from the

1038
00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:09,719
Speaker 3: Catholic prayer of ordination, which is what they say when

1039
00:56:09,760 --> 00:56:12,480
Speaker 3: new priests are being blessed in their office by a bishop.

1040
00:56:13,640 --> 00:56:17,560
Speaker 3: So during this ordination ritual, we zoom in on one

1041
00:56:17,560 --> 00:56:20,879
Speaker 3: of these dudes, and it's Elias Cataeis. He looks very

1042
00:56:20,920 --> 00:56:23,520
Speaker 3: young here and full of the Holy Spirit. So he

1043
00:56:23,680 --> 00:56:26,440
Speaker 3: pauses under a crucifix in the church and he stares

1044
00:56:26,480 --> 00:56:29,279
Speaker 3: at it and takes some deep breaths, and then the

1045
00:56:29,320 --> 00:56:33,440
Speaker 3: bishop calls out the priests individually by name. They come forward,

1046
00:56:33,520 --> 00:56:36,440
Speaker 3: they get a blessing. They say, oh Lord, grant this

1047
00:56:36,560 --> 00:56:39,920
Speaker 3: your servant, the dignity of the priesthood. And I do

1048
00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:43,360
Speaker 3: have to say, some of these priests and bishops to

1049
00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:47,200
Speaker 3: me immediately fail the clergy smell test. They just do

1050
00:56:47,320 --> 00:56:51,480
Speaker 3: not pass as clergy. They look like actors who answered

1051
00:56:51,480 --> 00:56:52,279
Speaker 3: a casting call.

1052
00:56:53,000 --> 00:56:54,800
Speaker 2: Yeah. The church is real, though, which I think is

1053
00:56:55,000 --> 00:56:57,600
Speaker 2: always impressive for a kind of blasphemous film like this.

1054
00:56:58,560 --> 00:57:01,399
Speaker 2: It's a Saint Vincent Catholic in La. Again, I think

1055
00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:03,759
Speaker 2: this is the only thing they actually filmed in La.

1056
00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:05,879
Speaker 2: End of Days also filmed here.

1057
00:57:06,520 --> 00:57:08,319
Speaker 3: It kind of reminds me of the scene in Deep

1058
00:57:08,360 --> 00:57:14,400
Speaker 3: Red that they shot inside the tomb of Constantina. Yeah. Anyway,

1059
00:57:14,800 --> 00:57:17,840
Speaker 3: so now it's Eliaskataeus's turn. They call him up. We

1060
00:57:17,920 --> 00:57:20,600
Speaker 3: learn his name is Thomas. He lies down on the floor,

1061
00:57:20,600 --> 00:57:22,800
Speaker 3: he kisses the tiles of the floor. But then while

1062
00:57:22,800 --> 00:57:26,800
Speaker 3: he's doing that, he starts whimpering and crying. Thomas is

1063
00:57:26,840 --> 00:57:30,160
Speaker 3: having a vision and it's not a nice vision. It's

1064
00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:33,680
Speaker 3: something coming to him in these agonizing flashes, like images

1065
00:57:33,760 --> 00:57:39,360
Speaker 3: revealed by lightning, and he sees buff naked men with wings, fighting,

1066
00:57:39,720 --> 00:57:41,200
Speaker 3: spitting covered in blood.

1067
00:57:41,760 --> 00:57:44,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, we guess this is our first glance at some

1068
00:57:44,160 --> 00:57:48,800
Speaker 2: of these Great Event Horizon style flashes of horrifying Harpie

1069
00:57:48,920 --> 00:57:53,160
Speaker 2: like angels engaged in torture and death. Thomas begins to

1070
00:57:53,200 --> 00:57:55,760
Speaker 2: have his doubts. I think at this point this is

1071
00:57:55,840 --> 00:57:59,320
Speaker 2: not the Christianity he signed up for, and one wonders

1072
00:57:59,320 --> 00:58:00,960
Speaker 2: why he is given in this vision. Was this like

1073
00:58:01,000 --> 00:58:03,680
Speaker 2: a mistake where God's like, Oops, that's on me. You

1074
00:58:03,680 --> 00:58:07,800
Speaker 2: shouldn't have clicked on that attachment. But clearly this is

1075
00:58:07,840 --> 00:58:11,760
Speaker 2: going to alter his destiny with the church.

1076
00:58:11,960 --> 00:58:15,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, good question. Why is it revealed to him?

1077
00:58:15,800 --> 00:58:18,480
Speaker 3: I'm not sure, but he screams, and then we cut

1078
00:58:18,520 --> 00:58:22,840
Speaker 3: to black, and then we get another voiceover. This movie

1079
00:58:22,920 --> 00:58:25,760
Speaker 3: has quite a number of voiceovers, So the first one

1080
00:58:25,760 --> 00:58:29,160
Speaker 3: I think was Eric Stults talking you think, yeah, yeah, yeah,

1081
00:58:29,680 --> 00:58:33,600
Speaker 3: And the second one is the Elias Cotais voiceover. He says,

1082
00:58:33,880 --> 00:58:37,200
Speaker 3: some people lose their faith because Heaven chose them too little,

1083
00:58:37,680 --> 00:58:40,520
Speaker 3: But how many lose their faith because Heaven chose them

1084
00:58:40,560 --> 00:58:45,240
Speaker 3: too much? I've seen things. So it cuts to what's

1085
00:58:45,240 --> 00:58:48,120
Speaker 3: supposed to be the La Skyline at dusk. We're in

1086
00:58:48,120 --> 00:58:50,240
Speaker 3: the Big City, now you're saying you think this is

1087
00:58:50,280 --> 00:58:51,120
Speaker 3: actually Phoenix.

1088
00:58:51,600 --> 00:58:54,080
Speaker 2: I think it's Phoenix, but I didn't. I didn't do

1089
00:58:54,200 --> 00:58:56,080
Speaker 2: some deepen, any kind of deep analysis here.

1090
00:58:56,240 --> 00:59:00,520
Speaker 3: Yeah. So the voiceover keeps going. It says, you're later.

1091
00:59:00,680 --> 00:59:03,280
Speaker 3: Of all the Gospels I learned in seminary school, a

1092
00:59:03,400 --> 00:59:06,240
Speaker 3: verse from Saint Paul stays with me. It is perhaps

1093
00:59:06,400 --> 00:59:10,640
Speaker 3: the strangest passage in the Bible in which he writes, quote,

1094
00:59:11,120 --> 00:59:16,720
Speaker 3: even now in heaven there are angels carrying savage weapons. Now,

1095
00:59:16,880 --> 00:59:19,760
Speaker 3: longtime listeners probably know this, but in case you're new,

1096
00:59:19,960 --> 00:59:23,480
Speaker 3: I'm kind of a Bible nut. I'm like, not religious,

1097
00:59:23,480 --> 00:59:25,760
Speaker 3: but I love the Bible. I just think it's incredibly

1098
00:59:25,760 --> 00:59:29,919
Speaker 3: interesting for literary and historical reasons. And this immediately threw

1099
00:59:29,920 --> 00:59:32,880
Speaker 3: a red flag for me. The moment I heard it,

1100
00:59:32,960 --> 00:59:35,640
Speaker 3: I was like, I do not believe this is in

1101
00:59:35,680 --> 00:59:38,840
Speaker 3: any text attributed to Paul. Not because like I have

1102
00:59:38,920 --> 00:59:41,360
Speaker 3: them all memorized or anything, but I just think if

1103
00:59:41,400 --> 00:59:45,400
Speaker 3: this were aligned from Paul, I would remember it, and

1104
00:59:45,440 --> 00:59:48,000
Speaker 3: did not remember it. So I looked it up. Turns

1105
00:59:48,040 --> 00:59:50,240
Speaker 3: out I was right, this is not from Paul's epistles,

1106
00:59:50,280 --> 00:59:52,200
Speaker 3: and it's actually not in the Bible at.

1107
00:59:52,160 --> 00:59:55,400
Speaker 2: All, yeah, I remember being a little They're not really disappointed,

1108
00:59:55,440 --> 00:59:58,120
Speaker 2: but just mystified, because obviously I looked in the Bible

1109
00:59:58,160 --> 01:00:00,360
Speaker 2: for this. I saw the film. It was like, oh,

1110
01:00:00,400 --> 01:00:03,680
Speaker 2: this isn't real. And if it were real, to your point,

1111
01:00:03,760 --> 01:00:06,080
Speaker 2: you would hear about it all the time. How many

1112
01:00:06,400 --> 01:00:10,200
Speaker 2: bands would be named angels with savage weapons and so forth.

1113
01:00:10,360 --> 01:00:12,360
Speaker 2: There may be some anyway because of this movie, but

1114
01:00:12,360 --> 01:00:13,360
Speaker 2: there would be far more.

1115
01:00:14,320 --> 01:00:16,600
Speaker 3: I mean, I think it's also a little disappointing because

1116
01:00:16,600 --> 01:00:20,680
Speaker 3: there are really weird, brutal sounding Bible verses that talk

1117
01:00:20,720 --> 01:00:23,200
Speaker 3: about angels with weapons. They just don't say it like this.

1118
01:00:23,640 --> 01:00:26,640
Speaker 3: The closest example I could think of is in Revelation

1119
01:00:26,760 --> 01:00:30,680
Speaker 3: chapter fourteen. Doesn't say the word savage weapons, but it

1120
01:00:30,720 --> 01:00:34,560
Speaker 3: does talk about angels and other heavenly beings rolling up

1121
01:00:34,560 --> 01:00:37,080
Speaker 3: with sharp sickles. Do you actually do you want me

1122
01:00:37,120 --> 01:00:39,640
Speaker 3: to read from this or can we skip the Bible reading?

1123
01:00:40,320 --> 01:00:43,440
Speaker 2: Your choice. I'm always down for some weird Bible readings.

1124
01:00:43,520 --> 01:00:45,360
Speaker 3: Okay, well, at least do part of it. So this

1125
01:00:45,400 --> 01:00:48,400
Speaker 3: is a new King James version. This is the part

1126
01:00:48,480 --> 01:00:51,600
Speaker 3: that this may sound familiar to you. It's a famous passage.

1127
01:00:51,920 --> 01:00:54,720
Speaker 3: Then I looked and behold a white cloud. And on

1128
01:00:54,800 --> 01:00:57,880
Speaker 3: the cloud sat one like the son of Man, having

1129
01:00:57,920 --> 01:01:00,439
Speaker 3: on his head a golden crown and in his hand

1130
01:01:00,560 --> 01:01:04,040
Speaker 3: a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple,

1131
01:01:04,560 --> 01:01:06,760
Speaker 3: crying with a loud voice to him who sat on

1132
01:01:06,800 --> 01:01:10,280
Speaker 3: the cloud, thrust in your sickle and reap, for the

1133
01:01:10,360 --> 01:01:13,200
Speaker 3: time has come for you to reap. For the harvest

1134
01:01:13,240 --> 01:01:16,760
Speaker 3: of the earth is ripe. So he who sat on

1135
01:01:16,800 --> 01:01:19,720
Speaker 3: the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth, and

1136
01:01:19,760 --> 01:01:22,480
Speaker 3: the earth was reaped. And then there are more verses

1137
01:01:22,520 --> 01:01:26,000
Speaker 3: after that, more and more angels with sharp sickles, thrust

1138
01:01:26,080 --> 01:01:27,600
Speaker 3: in your sickle and reap. I think they have to

1139
01:01:27,640 --> 01:01:29,720
Speaker 3: reap the vine of the earth, for the grapes are

1140
01:01:29,720 --> 01:01:32,320
Speaker 3: now ripe, a lot of you know. And the wine

1141
01:01:32,320 --> 01:01:35,120
Speaker 3: press was trampled, and blood came out of the wine press,

1142
01:01:35,160 --> 01:01:35,960
Speaker 3: all that kind of stuff.

1143
01:01:37,080 --> 01:01:38,560
Speaker 2: Blood wine for everybody, gotcha.

1144
01:01:38,720 --> 01:01:41,720
Speaker 3: Yeah. Also, not trying to pick on the movie here.

1145
01:01:41,960 --> 01:01:44,240
Speaker 3: I want to be generous about this because it's just

1146
01:01:44,240 --> 01:01:47,040
Speaker 3: trying to have a good time. But I will say

1147
01:01:47,080 --> 01:01:50,120
Speaker 3: throughout the film, Thomas, even though he was supposed to

1148
01:01:50,120 --> 01:01:53,000
Speaker 3: be a seminary student, talks in a way that does

1149
01:01:53,040 --> 01:01:56,680
Speaker 3: not indicate a familiarity with the Bible or with Christian theology.

1150
01:01:57,160 --> 01:02:00,600
Speaker 3: One example is he repeatedly calls the Book of Revelation

1151
01:02:01,000 --> 01:02:05,240
Speaker 3: revelations plural. A lot of people say that, and he

1152
01:02:05,360 --> 01:02:09,520
Speaker 3: like uses the word prophesize. A lot of people say that,

1153
01:02:09,600 --> 01:02:12,160
Speaker 3: but like, you know, if you're a theology student, you

1154
01:02:12,200 --> 01:02:15,200
Speaker 3: would know it is the Book of Revelation or the

1155
01:02:15,240 --> 01:02:18,760
Speaker 3: Apocalypse of John, or you would say prophesie, not prophesies.

1156
01:02:19,800 --> 01:02:22,360
Speaker 3: So yeah, it just does it feels like the way

1157
01:02:22,400 --> 01:02:24,320
Speaker 3: a lay person would talk about religion.

1158
01:02:25,360 --> 01:02:28,920
Speaker 2: Yeah. Overall, the film is interesting in the way it

1159
01:02:29,040 --> 01:02:31,920
Speaker 2: seems to approach religion and theology, because at times there

1160
01:02:31,920 --> 01:02:34,640
Speaker 2: are moments that feel kind of a little more accurate,

1161
01:02:34,640 --> 01:02:38,680
Speaker 2: Like in general, like I mentioned the Hobo angels, like that,

1162
01:02:38,680 --> 01:02:41,520
Speaker 2: that's fairly biblically accurate, you know, getting into the idea

1163
01:02:41,560 --> 01:02:44,640
Speaker 2: that you should you know, I'm blanking on the exact

1164
01:02:45,720 --> 01:02:47,919
Speaker 2: book in line right now, but you know, be nice

1165
01:02:47,960 --> 01:02:51,160
Speaker 2: to everybody because they might be angels in disguise essentially.

1166
01:02:51,560 --> 01:02:53,480
Speaker 3: Oh well, yeah, there are stories in the Bible of

1167
01:02:53,600 --> 01:02:58,280
Speaker 3: angels appearing, as you know, they are indistinguishable from human travelers,

1168
01:02:58,280 --> 01:03:00,560
Speaker 3: and you need to show them hospitality. That's there, and

1169
01:03:01,040 --> 01:03:02,760
Speaker 3: you know the story of Lot, I think.

1170
01:03:03,320 --> 01:03:05,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, recurring theme in the Bible be nice to

1171
01:03:05,800 --> 01:03:10,640
Speaker 2: travelers and outsiders. Yes, some folks forget that. But then

1172
01:03:10,640 --> 01:03:12,440
Speaker 2: also there's the part late in the film, I think

1173
01:03:12,440 --> 01:03:14,720
Speaker 2: where they're talking about the nature of hell and how

1174
01:03:14,800 --> 01:03:17,520
Speaker 2: hell is not a place of fire and torment, but

1175
01:03:17,800 --> 01:03:21,000
Speaker 2: it's the torturous aspects of it are due to separation

1176
01:03:21,120 --> 01:03:24,080
Speaker 2: from God's love, which feels more in line with something

1177
01:03:24,080 --> 01:03:27,440
Speaker 2: he would hear, you know, from a theology class, as

1178
01:03:27,440 --> 01:03:31,240
Speaker 2: opposed to a devil movie, where other times they're just

1179
01:03:31,360 --> 01:03:34,040
Speaker 2: you know, obviously making stuff up because it's the rule

1180
01:03:34,080 --> 01:03:36,320
Speaker 2: of cool and so forth. So at any rate, we're

1181
01:03:36,360 --> 01:03:40,600
Speaker 2: gonna play fast and loose with the biblical quotes in

1182
01:03:40,640 --> 01:03:41,680
Speaker 2: this film, for sure.

1183
01:03:42,200 --> 01:03:45,560
Speaker 3: So yeah, Thomas is talking about this made up Bible

1184
01:03:45,640 --> 01:03:48,640
Speaker 3: verse about heavily armed angels, and we see him standing

1185
01:03:48,640 --> 01:03:50,800
Speaker 3: on the roof of a building looking out over the city.

1186
01:03:50,800 --> 01:03:54,000
Speaker 3: He's brooding. He's doing detective brood. He looks a good

1187
01:03:54,040 --> 01:03:56,680
Speaker 3: bit older now and he is of course no longer

1188
01:03:56,760 --> 01:03:59,800
Speaker 3: dressed like a priest. He's the world, weary, hard living

1189
01:03:59,800 --> 01:04:02,880
Speaker 3: to detective. He takes a drag off a cigarette you

1190
01:04:02,880 --> 01:04:05,400
Speaker 3: can imagine him with a you know, Jack Daniel's bottle

1191
01:04:05,440 --> 01:04:08,200
Speaker 3: in his hand, but you don't ever see that, and

1192
01:04:08,240 --> 01:04:11,200
Speaker 3: it's you know, it's very this city. It'll eat you alive.

1193
01:04:12,960 --> 01:04:15,720
Speaker 3: But things get cooking pretty quick. After this, Thomas comes

1194
01:04:15,720 --> 01:04:17,880
Speaker 3: home to his apartment and as soon as he's in

1195
01:04:17,960 --> 01:04:21,400
Speaker 3: the door, he sees grunge Eric Stolts wearing the long

1196
01:04:21,680 --> 01:04:24,640
Speaker 3: trench coat, perched up like a bird on the back

1197
01:04:24,680 --> 01:04:28,440
Speaker 3: of a chair in a gravitationally impossible way. And this

1198
01:04:28,480 --> 01:04:31,480
Speaker 3: is the part I found this to be truly hilarious.

1199
01:04:32,800 --> 01:04:35,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the core idea here is that angels

1200
01:04:35,240 --> 01:04:38,920
Speaker 2: again are the truly inhuman, hideous harpy creatures, and so

1201
01:04:39,080 --> 01:04:42,480
Speaker 2: of course they're gonna perch. But we can also later

1202
01:04:42,560 --> 01:04:45,480
Speaker 2: on the film we'll learn that angels cannot drive automobiles.

1203
01:04:46,080 --> 01:04:49,240
Speaker 2: I'm assuming they can't use technology at all on the whole.

1204
01:04:49,320 --> 01:04:52,760
Speaker 2: So maybe one idea is they can't use chairs, or

1205
01:04:52,800 --> 01:04:55,520
Speaker 2: maybe they just largely choose not to use them because

1206
01:04:55,600 --> 01:04:59,720
Speaker 2: humans made them. You know, maybe even as even with Simon,

1207
01:04:59,800 --> 01:05:02,880
Speaker 2: who about as human friendly as the angels get, maybe

1208
01:05:02,880 --> 01:05:05,240
Speaker 2: he's just like I would prefer not to What is that.

1209
01:05:05,320 --> 01:05:07,360
Speaker 3: I didn't think about that, But yeah, I can't use

1210
01:05:07,440 --> 01:05:10,840
Speaker 3: human technology. So they can't even use chairs. But they

1211
01:05:10,920 --> 01:05:14,040
Speaker 3: use doors. That's a human technology.

1212
01:05:14,240 --> 01:05:16,840
Speaker 2: They have to use those. But with chairs they go like,

1213
01:05:16,880 --> 01:05:19,040
Speaker 2: you know, I'm gonna be obtuse and I'm going to

1214
01:05:19,040 --> 01:05:21,960
Speaker 2: perch on it, because perching is what God intends.

1215
01:05:22,320 --> 01:05:23,320
Speaker 3: They use stairs.

1216
01:05:23,600 --> 01:05:28,800
Speaker 2: That's human technology, like real creations of God perch. Humans

1217
01:05:28,800 --> 01:05:31,320
Speaker 2: decided to make chairs, and then God it's like, oh,

1218
01:05:31,360 --> 01:05:33,480
Speaker 2: that's great. You did such a great job making chairs.

1219
01:05:33,520 --> 01:05:36,120
Speaker 2: You can set in them. The angels are having none

1220
01:05:36,120 --> 01:05:36,280
Speaker 2: of that.

1221
01:05:36,720 --> 01:05:39,280
Speaker 3: So Eric Stoltz is reading a book in this pose

1222
01:05:39,400 --> 01:05:41,760
Speaker 3: and Thomas draws his gun and starts giving him tough

1223
01:05:41,800 --> 01:05:45,800
Speaker 3: guy talk. He's like, don't even move, buddy, and our

1224
01:05:45,840 --> 01:05:50,800
Speaker 3: heavenly Stults is not intimidated. He just starts monologuing. He says,

1225
01:05:51,080 --> 01:05:54,200
Speaker 3: everyone thinks they know what heaven is, like Heaven isn't

1226
01:05:54,240 --> 01:05:55,040
Speaker 3: heaven anymore?

1227
01:05:55,720 --> 01:05:59,080
Speaker 2: Not one of the better mini monologues in the film.

1228
01:05:58,120 --> 01:06:04,880
Speaker 3: But eventually reveals that he knows Thomas's backstory. He knows

1229
01:06:04,920 --> 01:06:07,240
Speaker 3: that he was once a priest training for the priesthood

1230
01:06:07,360 --> 01:06:09,280
Speaker 3: and that he quit when he had a vision of

1231
01:06:09,320 --> 01:06:12,960
Speaker 3: a war in heaven during his ordination. Stolts also knows

1232
01:06:13,000 --> 01:06:16,760
Speaker 3: that Thomas researched and wrote a thesis on the subject

1233
01:06:16,920 --> 01:06:21,200
Speaker 3: of angels. And then I love this exchange. Stultz says,

1234
01:06:21,600 --> 01:06:24,200
Speaker 3: do you still believe any of it? And Thomas says,

1235
01:06:24,320 --> 01:06:31,040
Speaker 3: you're asking me as a cop. So they kind of

1236
01:06:31,200 --> 01:06:34,120
Speaker 3: banter back and forth without resolving the question, and then

1237
01:06:34,120 --> 01:06:38,400
Speaker 3: suddenly we cut away to a very nineties movie landscape

1238
01:06:38,440 --> 01:06:42,200
Speaker 3: of fog and blue filters, and we see another guy

1239
01:06:42,320 --> 01:06:45,520
Speaker 3: in a long coat, kind of dressed like Stalts, with

1240
01:06:45,640 --> 01:06:48,640
Speaker 3: long hair, coming down the length of an abandoned back alley.

1241
01:06:49,280 --> 01:06:51,560
Speaker 3: He is wearing his sunglasses in the dark, and he

1242
01:06:51,640 --> 01:06:54,200
Speaker 3: stops and he sniffs the air like a dog. This

1243
01:06:54,240 --> 01:06:58,280
Speaker 3: we will learn is the angel Usial. Also, this guy

1244
01:06:58,400 --> 01:07:00,920
Speaker 3: ends up doing a bird perch up on a street

1245
01:07:00,960 --> 01:07:04,360
Speaker 3: maintenance sign and then he stays like that all through

1246
01:07:04,400 --> 01:07:08,640
Speaker 3: the night until morning, looking at the window of this

1247
01:07:08,840 --> 01:07:10,520
Speaker 3: like warehouse district apartment.

1248
01:07:10,920 --> 01:07:13,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're kind of like gargoyles, they are.

1249
01:07:13,160 --> 01:07:17,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's cool. So we see inside the apartment

1250
01:07:17,600 --> 01:07:20,040
Speaker 3: that is being staked out by this angel, and it's

1251
01:07:20,160 --> 01:07:22,560
Speaker 3: Eric Stolt's coming home, so I guess this is his place.

1252
01:07:22,600 --> 01:07:26,240
Speaker 3: He uses he has an apartment. He dumps out the

1253
01:07:26,280 --> 01:07:29,240
Speaker 3: contents of his pockets on a table and it's like

1254
01:07:29,400 --> 01:07:34,680
Speaker 3: keys and antique coins, a brass pocket watch, so that's technology,

1255
01:07:35,040 --> 01:07:38,480
Speaker 3: and then a clipping of a newspaper article and then

1256
01:07:38,640 --> 01:07:42,120
Speaker 3: he stops. He senses something is wrong. He sniffs the air.

1257
01:07:42,320 --> 01:07:44,960
Speaker 3: It's like, can you smell what the Lord God is cooking?

1258
01:07:45,200 --> 01:07:48,080
Speaker 3: It's an angel coming to kill me. So suddenly Sunglasses

1259
01:07:48,120 --> 01:07:51,720
Speaker 3: Angel ussil here jumps in from the outside through the window,

1260
01:07:51,880 --> 01:07:55,960
Speaker 3: smashes glass everywhere, and at the same time, Eric Stolts

1261
01:07:56,000 --> 01:07:58,760
Speaker 3: senses that he's coming and jumps up so that they

1262
01:07:58,800 --> 01:08:00,720
Speaker 3: collide in midair and start wrestling.

1263
01:08:01,200 --> 01:08:03,440
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, so again we have some strong shades of

1264
01:08:03,520 --> 01:08:08,480
Speaker 2: Highlander here, Yes, with one supernatural combatant ambushing another with

1265
01:08:08,840 --> 01:08:10,960
Speaker 2: life force on the line between the two of them.

1266
01:08:11,160 --> 01:08:14,840
Speaker 3: Gregory Wyden had a thing like he was really into

1267
01:08:14,960 --> 01:08:19,400
Speaker 3: the idea of human like beings that are something other

1268
01:08:19,479 --> 01:08:22,639
Speaker 3: than human blending in with us and being at war

1269
01:08:22,720 --> 01:08:23,280
Speaker 3: with each other.

1270
01:08:23,920 --> 01:08:26,480
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean it was a massive success with Highlander.

1271
01:08:26,760 --> 01:08:30,439
Speaker 2: Why not re explore it here. Yeah.

1272
01:08:30,479 --> 01:08:34,759
Speaker 3: So, anyway, while these angels are fighting, the Sunglasses Angel

1273
01:08:34,880 --> 01:08:37,439
Speaker 3: calls Eric Stolt Simon's that's how we learn his name

1274
01:08:37,479 --> 01:08:40,559
Speaker 3: and then accuses him of having found it and trying

1275
01:08:40,640 --> 01:08:44,439
Speaker 3: to keep it from us. What is it? Who is us?

1276
01:08:44,720 --> 01:08:48,000
Speaker 3: Unclear at this point, but they keep fighting and eventually

1277
01:08:48,080 --> 01:08:51,559
Speaker 3: Simon impales the other angel's throat on a shard of

1278
01:08:51,560 --> 01:08:54,400
Speaker 3: glass from the window. This happened in the last movie

1279
01:08:54,439 --> 01:08:56,880
Speaker 3: we watched. Yes, this was the first murder in Deep

1280
01:08:56,920 --> 01:08:57,559
Speaker 3: Red as well.

1281
01:08:57,760 --> 01:08:58,880
Speaker 2: That's right, that's right.

1282
01:08:59,040 --> 01:09:02,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, But anyway, Rob, I don't know if you have

1283
01:09:02,439 --> 01:09:06,320
Speaker 3: any particular notes on this fight scene. One of the

1284
01:09:06,320 --> 01:09:08,240
Speaker 3: main things that struck me about it is how they

1285
01:09:08,280 --> 01:09:11,839
Speaker 3: are scratching at each other with their fingernails, like digging

1286
01:09:11,840 --> 01:09:14,400
Speaker 3: at each other's hearts and tearing at the flesh on

1287
01:09:14,479 --> 01:09:14,960
Speaker 3: the chest.

1288
01:09:15,560 --> 01:09:18,960
Speaker 2: Yeah. So basically we learn here for sure that angels

1289
01:09:18,960 --> 01:09:23,440
Speaker 2: are gritty and savage. There's nothing refined about holy angelic warfare.

1290
01:09:23,800 --> 01:09:26,160
Speaker 2: There are not going to be any swords of gleaming

1291
01:09:26,280 --> 01:09:28,760
Speaker 2: light here. It's going to be just let me get

1292
01:09:28,800 --> 01:09:30,720
Speaker 2: my fingernails in your chest so I can rip that

1293
01:09:30,800 --> 01:09:31,200
Speaker 2: heart out.

1294
01:09:31,400 --> 01:09:36,400
Speaker 3: Just trying to mutual heart digging going on. But Simon prevails.

1295
01:09:36,439 --> 01:09:40,000
Speaker 3: He doesn't well, first he impales the guy's throat on

1296
01:09:40,000 --> 01:09:42,800
Speaker 3: the window, and then he digs his heart out, and

1297
01:09:42,840 --> 01:09:46,559
Speaker 3: then he also takes off the guy's sunglasses and reveals

1298
01:09:46,560 --> 01:09:49,519
Speaker 3: he has no eyes, just the black hollow sockets. So

1299
01:09:49,560 --> 01:09:52,439
Speaker 3: Simon throws him out the window. The other angel lands

1300
01:09:52,439 --> 01:09:54,760
Speaker 3: in the alley below and then is immediately hit by

1301
01:09:54,800 --> 01:09:58,439
Speaker 3: a car. And did you know this? I first noticed

1302
01:09:58,439 --> 01:10:01,240
Speaker 3: in this scene that the angels all seem to have

1303
01:10:01,240 --> 01:10:02,880
Speaker 3: their fingernails painted black.

1304
01:10:03,000 --> 01:10:05,360
Speaker 2: Do you know what's on there? Yeah? I think it's

1305
01:10:05,400 --> 01:10:08,559
Speaker 2: just in general angels have cool nails. Or also maybe

1306
01:10:08,560 --> 01:10:13,040
Speaker 2: it's sort of to very, you know, inexpensively imply that

1307
01:10:13,160 --> 01:10:16,880
Speaker 2: their fingernails are sharp or something without actually putting like

1308
01:10:16,960 --> 01:10:18,719
Speaker 2: crazy nails on their fingers.

1309
01:10:18,880 --> 01:10:21,000
Speaker 3: Or maybe they're just really dirty because they're always digging

1310
01:10:21,040 --> 01:10:21,840
Speaker 3: each other's hearts out.

1311
01:10:21,880 --> 01:10:23,960
Speaker 2: That's true, it's just good clotted blood.

1312
01:10:24,439 --> 01:10:28,160
Speaker 3: Angels don't wash their hands because that would be technology.

1313
01:10:29,320 --> 01:10:32,720
Speaker 3: Can't use a faucet anyway. We cut to later. The

1314
01:10:32,760 --> 01:10:34,920
Speaker 3: police are here setting up a crime scene around the

1315
01:10:34,960 --> 01:10:39,519
Speaker 3: angel's body. What are the odds? Our friend Thomas is well,

1316
01:10:39,560 --> 01:10:41,880
Speaker 3: actually no, I made a note about this, but I

1317
01:10:41,920 --> 01:10:44,320
Speaker 3: was wrong. At first. We think he's the detective assigned

1318
01:10:44,360 --> 01:10:47,040
Speaker 3: to the case. We learned that he usually works the

1319
01:10:47,160 --> 01:10:50,880
Speaker 3: night shift. But why was he called here? Actually he

1320
01:10:50,960 --> 01:10:53,720
Speaker 3: was not assigned the case. He was called because they

1321
01:10:53,800 --> 01:10:57,439
Speaker 3: found a copy of his thesis about angels in the

1322
01:10:57,479 --> 01:11:01,840
Speaker 3: apartment above. And this scene has a lot of stereotypical

1323
01:11:02,040 --> 01:11:05,479
Speaker 3: cynical cop banter, so making jokes about the dead guy.

1324
01:11:05,560 --> 01:11:08,640
Speaker 3: They're like, maybe his eyeballs are in the radiator, and

1325
01:11:08,680 --> 01:11:10,880
Speaker 3: a lot of pining for retirement, you know, just two

1326
01:11:10,960 --> 01:11:15,760
Speaker 3: years till retirement. Also in the apartment, Thomas finds a

1327
01:11:15,960 --> 01:11:20,960
Speaker 3: newspaper obituary from Chimney Rock, Arizona, about the death of

1328
01:11:21,000 --> 01:11:23,600
Speaker 3: a man named Colonel Arnold Hawthorne.

1329
01:11:24,000 --> 01:11:26,680
Speaker 2: So that's the kind of investigation that Simon's been up

1330
01:11:26,720 --> 01:11:30,520
Speaker 2: to down here. Maybe as he's been looking through the obits.

1331
01:11:30,280 --> 01:11:33,759
Speaker 3: He's just reading o bits from I guess everywhere, trying

1332
01:11:33,800 --> 01:11:39,040
Speaker 3: to find like who's the worst person who died. And

1333
01:11:39,120 --> 01:11:43,400
Speaker 3: so then we go to Chimney Rock and we check

1334
01:11:43,479 --> 01:11:46,880
Speaker 3: in at a local elementary school I think it's the

1335
01:11:47,280 --> 01:11:50,519
Speaker 3: Reservation School here in Chimney Rock, and we meet a

1336
01:11:50,520 --> 01:11:55,040
Speaker 3: new character, Catherine, played by Virginia Madsen, and she's directing

1337
01:11:55,080 --> 01:11:59,920
Speaker 3: a choir of children performing a version of Ave Maria.

1338
01:12:00,040 --> 01:12:02,439
Speaker 3: One of the children in the choir is a little

1339
01:12:02,439 --> 01:12:05,400
Speaker 3: girl named Mary, and after the performance we get to

1340
01:12:05,400 --> 01:12:08,840
Speaker 3: see Mary and Catherine bonding and having a good relationship,

1341
01:12:08,840 --> 01:12:12,120
Speaker 3: like they bond over their shared desire of cake. And

1342
01:12:12,160 --> 01:12:16,000
Speaker 3: then meanwhile, somewhere else in Chimney Rock, we're inside a

1343
01:12:16,120 --> 01:12:20,599
Speaker 3: church illuminated only by candle light, totally empty. There's nobody here,

1344
01:12:21,040 --> 01:12:23,280
Speaker 3: and at the head of the chapel, the body of

1345
01:12:23,400 --> 01:12:26,960
Speaker 3: Colonel Arnold Hawthorne, the guy from the obituary, is laid

1346
01:12:26,960 --> 01:12:30,000
Speaker 3: out for display in an open casket draped with the

1347
01:12:30,040 --> 01:12:33,920
Speaker 3: American flag. There are no mourners, nobody here to visit

1348
01:12:34,000 --> 01:12:38,639
Speaker 3: except Eric Stults Simon, the Angel. Simon comes walking down

1349
01:12:38,640 --> 01:12:41,280
Speaker 3: the aisle clutching his chest like he's injured. I guess

1350
01:12:41,400 --> 01:12:43,599
Speaker 3: Uziel was kind of digging at him to they were

1351
01:12:43,800 --> 01:12:47,080
Speaker 3: mutual digging again, so he's, you know, he's hurt, and

1352
01:12:47,160 --> 01:12:51,519
Speaker 3: he approaches the body, leans over and starts French kissing it.

1353
01:12:52,360 --> 01:12:54,760
Speaker 3: And they add in some sound effects I think to

1354
01:12:54,760 --> 01:12:57,200
Speaker 3: make clear that it's not just a kiss, like Simon,

1355
01:12:58,040 --> 01:13:01,040
Speaker 3: it is like wind rushing and hissings sound. So Simon

1356
01:13:01,200 --> 01:13:05,160
Speaker 3: is sucking the soul out of casket man, kind of

1357
01:13:05,200 --> 01:13:07,720
Speaker 3: like letting the air out of a car's tires. But

1358
01:13:07,800 --> 01:13:10,639
Speaker 3: that did actually make me wonder physical questions like what

1359
01:13:10,760 --> 01:13:14,040
Speaker 3: is the pressure? What the psi of a soul and

1360
01:13:14,080 --> 01:13:16,719
Speaker 3: a dead body? And is there a valve that holds

1361
01:13:16,720 --> 01:13:19,120
Speaker 3: it in place before the angel comes and lets it

1362
01:13:19,160 --> 01:13:20,240
Speaker 3: out and sucks it?

1363
01:13:20,479 --> 01:13:22,439
Speaker 2: Well? Will We learned later there's the size of a

1364
01:13:22,479 --> 01:13:25,160
Speaker 2: bread box. But no, it's bigger than a bread It's bigger,

1365
01:13:25,280 --> 01:13:27,479
Speaker 2: bigger than a bread box, bigger. Yeah, so that means

1366
01:13:27,720 --> 01:13:30,160
Speaker 2: but what pressure is a volume.

1367
01:13:29,800 --> 01:13:33,000
Speaker 3: Of gas bigger than a bread box? How do you say?

1368
01:13:33,000 --> 01:13:35,200
Speaker 2: With the yeah? And again it gives down to like

1369
01:13:35,360 --> 01:13:39,000
Speaker 2: under what pressure? Terrestrial pressure, celestial pressure? I don't know.

1370
01:13:48,439 --> 01:13:51,120
Speaker 3: Simon, uh, you know. He sucks the soul out, and

1371
01:13:51,120 --> 01:13:53,519
Speaker 3: then he goes hiking around Chimney Rock with his coat

1372
01:13:53,600 --> 01:13:57,640
Speaker 3: folded up tight, still clutching his mid section. He eventually

1373
01:13:57,840 --> 01:14:00,040
Speaker 3: breaks into a First, I thought it was in a

1374
01:14:00,040 --> 01:14:04,040
Speaker 3: abandoned building, but then I realized it's the like abandoned

1375
01:14:04,200 --> 01:14:06,400
Speaker 3: upper floor of the school building.

1376
01:14:07,000 --> 01:14:09,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, we learned later that a lot of jobs were

1377
01:14:09,320 --> 01:14:12,599
Speaker 2: lost in the town. It's been largely depopulated, so the school,

1378
01:14:12,640 --> 01:14:14,360
Speaker 2: a lot of the school is just kind of shuddered,

1379
01:14:14,760 --> 01:14:16,479
Speaker 2: and that's where we are here.

1380
01:14:16,680 --> 01:14:19,840
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, so he lies down with some rats there

1381
01:14:19,880 --> 01:14:20,639
Speaker 3: to have a rest.

1382
01:14:21,080 --> 01:14:25,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, and again this is kind of a recurring motif

1383
01:14:25,360 --> 01:14:29,719
Speaker 2: in this film, angels as wandering hoboes, which I actually

1384
01:14:29,720 --> 01:14:32,680
Speaker 2: have a note here Hebrews thirteen to two. Be not

1385
01:14:32,840 --> 01:14:37,120
Speaker 2: forgetful to entertain strangers, for thereby some have entertained angels unaware.

1386
01:14:37,479 --> 01:14:42,759
Speaker 3: One of the most important and most emphasized messages throughout

1387
01:14:42,800 --> 01:14:46,240
Speaker 3: the Bible is to show hospitality and kindness to strangers

1388
01:14:46,240 --> 01:14:46,839
Speaker 3: and foreigners.

1389
01:14:46,920 --> 01:14:48,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

1390
01:14:49,120 --> 01:14:53,600
Speaker 3: Anyway, so we go on to another scene with Detective Thomas.

1391
01:14:53,720 --> 01:14:57,960
Speaker 3: He gets info about the dead angel from the medical examiner.

1392
01:14:58,880 --> 01:15:02,759
Speaker 3: The murder victim here had no eyes ever, they say,

1393
01:15:03,120 --> 01:15:07,000
Speaker 3: not removed. Oh, by the way, the medical examiner is

1394
01:15:07,280 --> 01:15:08,840
Speaker 3: Banya from Seinfeld.

1395
01:15:09,439 --> 01:15:12,840
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, And I believe this actor comes

1396
01:15:12,880 --> 01:15:15,559
Speaker 2: back in subsequent films. They're like, he's so great, we

1397
01:15:15,640 --> 01:15:19,120
Speaker 2: must have more angel autopsies in the sequels.

1398
01:15:18,880 --> 01:15:21,960
Speaker 3: He's always he's cracking a lot of crude jokes. But

1399
01:15:22,120 --> 01:15:24,840
Speaker 3: so yeah, Banya is like, this guy had no eyes ever,

1400
01:15:25,240 --> 01:15:28,080
Speaker 3: they weren't removed. He didn't even have optic nerves. So

1401
01:15:28,120 --> 01:15:31,320
Speaker 3: he's just a no eyes model of human says he

1402
01:15:31,360 --> 01:15:35,240
Speaker 3: has the blood of a fetus, bones with no growth rings,

1403
01:15:35,439 --> 01:15:38,519
Speaker 3: both male and female sex organs, and a scar on

1404
01:15:38,600 --> 01:15:42,920
Speaker 3: his neck showing a trident symbol. And then in the

1405
01:15:42,960 --> 01:15:46,719
Speaker 3: lining of his coat they found a hand copied Latin

1406
01:15:46,840 --> 01:15:51,120
Speaker 3: manuscript of the Bible inscribed with the same symbol as

1407
01:15:51,120 --> 01:15:55,040
Speaker 3: his neck. And then the Bible has a bookmark stuck

1408
01:15:55,120 --> 01:15:58,719
Speaker 3: on a page toward the end, which is Revelation chapter

1409
01:15:58,760 --> 01:16:01,680
Speaker 3: twenty three. But there is no twenty third chapter in

1410
01:16:01,680 --> 01:16:04,080
Speaker 3: the Book of Revelation. The last chapter is number twenty two.

1411
01:16:04,640 --> 01:16:06,840
Speaker 2: What I think you had to be part of the

1412
01:16:06,920 --> 01:16:08,360
Speaker 2: kickstarter to get that chapter.

1413
01:16:08,720 --> 01:16:12,599
Speaker 3: Bonus chapter. We have bonus content stretch rewards. Yeah, so

1414
01:16:12,720 --> 01:16:17,360
Speaker 3: Thomas immediately sets toward translating the new chapter of Revelation.

1415
01:16:18,040 --> 01:16:20,160
Speaker 3: We see him in his study working through the night,

1416
01:16:21,200 --> 01:16:24,400
Speaker 3: and the translation includes the following lines he's reading out

1417
01:16:24,400 --> 01:16:27,800
Speaker 3: loud to himself quote and there were angels who could

1418
01:16:27,800 --> 01:16:32,040
Speaker 3: not accept the lifting of man above them, and like Lucifer,

1419
01:16:32,200 --> 01:16:35,880
Speaker 3: rebelled against the armies of the loyal archangel Michael, and

1420
01:16:35,960 --> 01:16:40,800
Speaker 3: there rose a second war in Heaven. Now, once I

1421
01:16:40,840 --> 01:16:43,719
Speaker 3: saw the whole movie, this actually made more sense, because

1422
01:16:43,720 --> 01:16:46,519
Speaker 3: I think the implication is just that this second war

1423
01:16:46,560 --> 01:16:49,320
Speaker 3: in heaven has been going on for a long time.

1424
01:16:49,840 --> 01:16:52,640
Speaker 3: But at first I was really confused, because this is

1425
01:16:52,960 --> 01:16:56,840
Speaker 3: describing something happening now, like the second War in heaven,

1426
01:16:57,479 --> 01:17:00,360
Speaker 3: and why would that be part of the revelation given

1427
01:17:00,400 --> 01:17:02,800
Speaker 3: to John of pat Mos in the first century but

1428
01:17:02,920 --> 01:17:06,080
Speaker 3: phrased in the past tense. But I think the implication is, like,

1429
01:17:06,120 --> 01:17:09,640
Speaker 3: the whole time humans have existed, this second war in

1430
01:17:09,680 --> 01:17:11,680
Speaker 3: Heaven has just been going on in the background.

1431
01:17:12,000 --> 01:17:13,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think you're right.

1432
01:17:13,520 --> 01:17:17,599
Speaker 3: Also, we learn from research mode Thomas finds the symbol,

1433
01:17:18,040 --> 01:17:21,040
Speaker 3: finds that symbol carved on the dead angel's neck and

1434
01:17:21,240 --> 01:17:24,439
Speaker 3: inscribed in the Bible. He finds that it is the

1435
01:17:24,479 --> 01:17:27,280
Speaker 3: symbol of the angel Uziel, the strength of God, one

1436
01:17:27,320 --> 01:17:30,599
Speaker 3: of God's soldiers and the lieutenant to the archangel Gabriel.

1437
01:17:31,760 --> 01:17:34,880
Speaker 3: And then when we get this information, Thomas gasps and

1438
01:17:34,920 --> 01:17:38,080
Speaker 3: he says, Gabriel that means something.

1439
01:17:38,479 --> 01:17:40,960
Speaker 2: I think the book that he's looking at identifies Gabriel

1440
01:17:41,000 --> 01:17:44,639
Speaker 2: as the Angel of Death, though I believe he's generally

1441
01:17:44,640 --> 01:17:48,120
Speaker 2: presented as the Herald of God. So for instance, in

1442
01:17:48,160 --> 01:17:50,400
Speaker 2: the Bible, in the New Testament, he comes to the

1443
01:17:50,479 --> 01:17:52,559
Speaker 2: virgin Mary and tells her that she has been chosen

1444
01:17:52,600 --> 01:17:56,600
Speaker 2: by God. Can you imagine that scene with walkins Gabriel

1445
01:17:57,040 --> 01:17:59,120
Speaker 2: of being the one to come and tell Mary what's up?

1446
01:17:59,439 --> 01:18:02,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, if you're having trouble imagining it, this is

1447
01:18:02,479 --> 01:18:04,160
Speaker 3: the part of the movie to start watching so you

1448
01:18:04,200 --> 01:18:07,880
Speaker 3: can inform your imagination, because this is when Gabriel finally

1449
01:18:07,880 --> 01:18:10,000
Speaker 3: shows up. It's like twenty five minutes into the film.

1450
01:18:11,360 --> 01:18:13,160
Speaker 3: The cock of the walk Baby, here he is.

1451
01:18:14,000 --> 01:18:14,479
Speaker 2: And he.

1452
01:18:16,360 --> 01:18:20,679
Speaker 3: Appears first, I think, in the alley outside the crime scene,

1453
01:18:20,920 --> 01:18:24,280
Speaker 3: and then he bursts into the room. He looks at

1454
01:18:24,280 --> 01:18:28,600
Speaker 3: the same time haunted and bored when we first meet him.

1455
01:18:28,800 --> 01:18:31,160
Speaker 3: So he cuts through the crime scene tape and he

1456
01:18:31,200 --> 01:18:33,960
Speaker 3: starts doing his own investigation, which, as we said earlier,

1457
01:18:34,000 --> 01:18:37,840
Speaker 3: involves a lot of licking and sniffing. He licks a

1458
01:18:37,880 --> 01:18:41,559
Speaker 3: bunch of gore off of a table and then stands up,

1459
01:18:42,000 --> 01:18:46,880
Speaker 3: gazes into the distance, and says, Simon, so he can

1460
01:18:46,920 --> 01:18:47,439
Speaker 3: taste him.

1461
01:18:47,800 --> 01:18:48,599
Speaker 2: He's on the hunt.

1462
01:18:49,840 --> 01:18:52,439
Speaker 3: Here we also meet a new character. This is Jerry

1463
01:18:52,479 --> 01:18:56,440
Speaker 3: played by Adam Goldberg, depicted as living in a squalid,

1464
01:18:56,560 --> 01:19:01,120
Speaker 3: bachelor flavored apartment of sadness and shame. They're like you know,

1465
01:19:01,560 --> 01:19:04,760
Speaker 3: pin up posters and porno magazines everywhere, and he uses

1466
01:19:04,800 --> 01:19:07,840
Speaker 3: an old maggot covered pizza as an ash tray. Things

1467
01:19:07,880 --> 01:19:11,000
Speaker 3: are not going great for Jerry, though. This is another

1468
01:19:11,000 --> 01:19:13,840
Speaker 3: thing that made more sense thinking about it in retrospect,

1469
01:19:13,880 --> 01:19:17,800
Speaker 3: because maybe the squalor of his apartment is supposed to

1470
01:19:17,880 --> 01:19:21,120
Speaker 3: reflect the fact that he is and has been undead

1471
01:19:21,240 --> 01:19:21,960
Speaker 3: for some time.

1472
01:19:23,080 --> 01:19:27,799
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's related later on that the scenario seems

1473
01:19:27,800 --> 01:19:31,400
Speaker 2: to be this that Gabriel can refuse to claim a

1474
01:19:31,439 --> 01:19:33,760
Speaker 2: soul and send it back into the body and take

1475
01:19:33,800 --> 01:19:36,200
Speaker 2: them on as kind of an undead thrall, and it

1476
01:19:36,240 --> 01:19:39,680
Speaker 2: only seems to work on individuals who have attempted to

1477
01:19:39,720 --> 01:19:42,400
Speaker 2: take their own life or succeeded in taking their own life.

1478
01:19:43,160 --> 01:19:47,080
Speaker 2: But yet, as dark as that sounds, this character of

1479
01:19:47,160 --> 01:19:50,920
Speaker 2: Jerry is mostly a comedic character and it largely works.

1480
01:19:50,960 --> 01:19:54,680
Speaker 2: It's actually pretty They have some fairly humorous though you know,

1481
01:19:54,840 --> 01:19:57,200
Speaker 2: dark darkly humorous back and forth here.

1482
01:19:58,280 --> 01:20:01,200
Speaker 3: Jerry is eager to get on the afterlife and he

1483
01:20:01,320 --> 01:20:06,080
Speaker 3: is very tired of being commanded around by Gabriel, and

1484
01:20:06,120 --> 01:20:08,920
Speaker 3: Gabriel is not exactly nice to him.

1485
01:20:09,360 --> 01:20:11,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he's probably having to do mostly things like

1486
01:20:11,800 --> 01:20:14,040
Speaker 2: I need you to drive from me, obviously, but then

1487
01:20:14,080 --> 01:20:15,920
Speaker 2: also like I need you to use a telephone and

1488
01:20:15,960 --> 01:20:19,519
Speaker 2: so forth, which, interestingly enough, you know I've heard you

1489
01:20:19,520 --> 01:20:21,960
Speaker 2: do hear similar things about Christopher Walken, like he apparently

1490
01:20:21,960 --> 01:20:26,000
Speaker 2: doesn't use a lot like modern communication technology. So one wonders,

1491
01:20:26,080 --> 01:20:28,760
Speaker 2: you know, how far from the truth is this performance.

1492
01:20:29,880 --> 01:20:33,800
Speaker 3: So later in Chimney Rock, we see some kids from

1493
01:20:33,840 --> 01:20:36,680
Speaker 3: the neighborhood playing hide and seek in the abandoned part

1494
01:20:36,680 --> 01:20:39,280
Speaker 3: of the school building, and here they come across Simon.

1495
01:20:39,479 --> 01:20:42,000
Speaker 3: One of the kids is Mary, the girl we met earlier.

1496
01:20:42,520 --> 01:20:45,240
Speaker 3: Simon tells Mary that you know, he needs a place

1497
01:20:45,280 --> 01:20:47,880
Speaker 3: to rest and to hide, and he asks her not

1498
01:20:47,920 --> 01:20:50,519
Speaker 3: to tell anybody that he's here. She says okay and

1499
01:20:50,600 --> 01:20:54,000
Speaker 3: offers to bring him something to eat. More in the

1500
01:20:54,040 --> 01:20:58,840
Speaker 3: Bible research subplot, Thomas talks to his coworker Banya again

1501
01:20:59,640 --> 01:21:03,439
Speaker 3: about the case. He says, okay, carbon dating came back.

1502
01:21:03,960 --> 01:21:06,800
Speaker 3: Usil's Bible manuscript is not a fake. It's from the

1503
01:21:06,800 --> 01:21:11,160
Speaker 3: second century, making it the oldest Bible in existence. Thomas

1504
01:21:11,160 --> 01:21:13,840
Speaker 3: has translated a bunch of new stuff from this extra

1505
01:21:13,920 --> 01:21:16,840
Speaker 3: chapter of Revelation. It is a story about the Second

1506
01:21:16,840 --> 01:21:20,320
Speaker 3: War in Heaven, which is about humans. Quote, when God

1507
01:21:20,400 --> 01:21:23,840
Speaker 3: gave us a soul, some angels became jealous and they

1508
01:21:23,920 --> 01:21:27,400
Speaker 3: started this war. And as far as we know, the

1509
01:21:27,400 --> 01:21:30,000
Speaker 3: Second War in Heaven is still going on. And then

1510
01:21:30,040 --> 01:21:32,800
Speaker 3: he reads a passage that says, quote, and there will

1511
01:21:32,800 --> 01:21:35,599
Speaker 3: be a dark soul, and this soul shall eat other

1512
01:21:35,720 --> 01:21:39,200
Speaker 3: dark souls and so become their inheritor. This soul will

1513
01:21:39,240 --> 01:21:41,800
Speaker 3: not rest in an angel, but a man, and he

1514
01:21:41,840 --> 01:21:49,400
Speaker 3: shall be a warrior. And then Banya responds, nice, very nice,

1515
01:21:50,439 --> 01:21:54,360
Speaker 3: but yeah. So they have some theology talk, like, for example,

1516
01:21:54,439 --> 01:21:56,680
Speaker 3: they talk about why God doesn't just get rid of

1517
01:21:56,720 --> 01:22:00,320
Speaker 3: the bad angels, and Thomas says maybe he can't, maybe

1518
01:22:00,320 --> 01:22:04,960
Speaker 3: he won't. Unresolved, There is a cool scene here where

1519
01:22:05,120 --> 01:22:09,840
Speaker 3: Gabriel strolls into the police Morgue makes the guard. He

1520
01:22:09,880 --> 01:22:13,599
Speaker 3: does the stranger's like sleep now and makes the guard sleep.

1521
01:22:14,240 --> 01:22:17,200
Speaker 3: He finds Uziel's body, anoints it with some kind of

1522
01:22:17,240 --> 01:22:20,080
Speaker 3: liquid and then points to it with his back turned

1523
01:22:20,160 --> 01:22:21,920
Speaker 3: and it bursts into flames on the floor.

1524
01:22:22,400 --> 01:22:25,679
Speaker 2: Total badass moment from Chris walk in here. Just Ooze

1525
01:22:25,720 --> 01:22:27,320
Speaker 2: is supernatural minutes. I love it.

1526
01:22:28,479 --> 01:22:31,439
Speaker 3: Back in Chimney Rock, we check in with Catherine, Mary,

1527
01:22:31,520 --> 01:22:35,200
Speaker 3: and Simon the Angel. Mary has been helping Simon hide

1528
01:22:35,200 --> 01:22:37,160
Speaker 3: out on the upper floor of the school. She's been

1529
01:22:37,280 --> 01:22:39,559
Speaker 3: very nice to him. She brings him Coca cola even

1530
01:22:39,680 --> 01:22:44,160
Speaker 3: angels love it, and Catherine the teacher find I don't

1531
01:22:44,200 --> 01:22:46,599
Speaker 3: know if that's paid product placement. That would be really

1532
01:22:46,600 --> 01:22:50,080
Speaker 3: funny if it is. But Katherine the teacher finds them

1533
01:22:50,439 --> 01:22:54,080
Speaker 3: hanging out together and tries to tell Simon that he

1534
01:22:54,200 --> 01:22:57,880
Speaker 3: has to leave, and Simon Simon sort of commit I

1535
01:22:57,880 --> 01:23:00,000
Speaker 3: don't know if he's doing some kind of intimidation mind

1536
01:23:00,080 --> 01:23:02,519
Speaker 3: and control on her. He like sends her away, and

1537
01:23:02,520 --> 01:23:06,080
Speaker 3: then in a very weird and unpleasant scene, he spits

1538
01:23:06,240 --> 01:23:08,879
Speaker 3: the soul that he sucked out of the coffin colonel

1539
01:23:09,000 --> 01:23:09,719
Speaker 3: into Mary.

1540
01:23:10,320 --> 01:23:12,800
Speaker 2: Yeah. This ends up making sense later, but in the

1541
01:23:12,840 --> 01:23:15,120
Speaker 2: moment is just super creepy because you're like, wait, isn't

1542
01:23:15,120 --> 01:23:19,240
Speaker 2: this the good angel This is the good angelic character?

1543
01:23:19,360 --> 01:23:22,120
Speaker 2: But it'll wait more since later, yeah, because we learned that, Yeah,

1544
01:23:22,160 --> 01:23:24,280
Speaker 2: that's what he's doing is he's spitting the dark soul

1545
01:23:24,360 --> 01:23:27,759
Speaker 2: into her. He's hiding the dark soul of the deceased

1546
01:23:27,760 --> 01:23:29,719
Speaker 2: war criminal in this little girl.

1547
01:23:30,160 --> 01:23:31,960
Speaker 3: And then the next time we see Mary, she is

1548
01:23:32,080 --> 01:23:36,320
Speaker 3: coughing and acting sick, so obviously the evil soul is

1549
01:23:36,360 --> 01:23:40,599
Speaker 3: not treating her well, so Catherine takes care of her,

1550
01:23:40,720 --> 01:23:45,479
Speaker 3: takes her back to her grandmother's house. Let's see. Oh, next,

1551
01:23:45,520 --> 01:23:47,880
Speaker 3: we're gonna have the characters start to converge in time

1552
01:23:47,920 --> 01:23:51,040
Speaker 3: and space. So you know, the uzi Ol Angel body

1553
01:23:51,080 --> 01:23:53,000
Speaker 3: is now just a charred mass on the floor of

1554
01:23:53,000 --> 01:23:55,640
Speaker 3: the morgue. So the only lead Thomas has left to

1555
01:23:55,720 --> 01:23:58,479
Speaker 3: work is to head to Chimney Rock and figure this out.

1556
01:23:59,560 --> 01:24:04,320
Speaker 3: And it's same time Gabriel finds the Colonel Hawthorne obituary

1557
01:24:04,360 --> 01:24:07,719
Speaker 3: among Simon's things and he heads for Chimney Rock also,

1558
01:24:08,400 --> 01:24:10,519
Speaker 3: and he takes Jerry with him to do his driving.

1559
01:24:10,600 --> 01:24:13,680
Speaker 3: In his front work, there's a scene where they're on

1560
01:24:13,800 --> 01:24:16,840
Speaker 3: the way to Chimney Rock and Gabriel makes Jerry stop

1561
01:24:16,880 --> 01:24:19,880
Speaker 3: the car and he goes, I can always smell a graveyard.

1562
01:24:20,640 --> 01:24:23,800
Speaker 3: It just like runs up a hill into a graveyard

1563
01:24:23,880 --> 01:24:28,240
Speaker 3: and immediately finds the grave. Has Jerry dig up. This

1564
01:24:28,320 --> 01:24:31,439
Speaker 3: is the grave of Colonel Hawthorne, and Walkin is doing

1565
01:24:31,439 --> 01:24:36,040
Speaker 3: the bird perch on the gravestone here, and when Jerry

1566
01:24:36,080 --> 01:24:38,680
Speaker 3: gets the body dug up. Gabriel gets down there and

1567
01:24:38,680 --> 01:24:42,639
Speaker 3: he goes, you're looking at the meanest, sickest, cleverest talking monkey.

1568
01:24:42,840 --> 01:24:43,679
Speaker 3: I love him.

1569
01:24:45,240 --> 01:24:47,559
Speaker 2: This is a great weird scene, like the two actors

1570
01:24:47,560 --> 01:24:51,960
Speaker 2: who have great chemistry, and we get walk in cemetery yoga.

1571
01:24:51,680 --> 01:24:55,680
Speaker 3: So yeah, and gabl he sniffs the dead body a

1572
01:24:55,720 --> 01:24:57,800
Speaker 3: good bit and then tries to suck the soul out,

1573
01:24:57,800 --> 01:25:00,679
Speaker 3: but no dice because the soul is already gone. Where

1574
01:25:00,680 --> 01:25:04,120
Speaker 3: could it be? Gabriel is back into detective mode. He's

1575
01:25:04,160 --> 01:25:07,599
Speaker 3: got to find the soul. So first he tracks down

1576
01:25:07,680 --> 01:25:11,639
Speaker 3: Simon hiding in the school. More bird perching here. Simon

1577
01:25:11,680 --> 01:25:14,080
Speaker 3: tries to get away, but I think Gabriel is the

1578
01:25:14,120 --> 01:25:17,000
Speaker 3: more powerful angel, so you know, all the other angels

1579
01:25:17,040 --> 01:25:20,080
Speaker 3: are kind of at his mercy one on one and

1580
01:25:20,160 --> 01:25:23,320
Speaker 3: he says, so where's the soul? You know, bigger than

1581
01:25:23,320 --> 01:25:26,960
Speaker 3: a bread box used to occupy the recently dead Colonel Hawthorne.

1582
01:25:27,880 --> 01:25:29,599
Speaker 3: This is the part about the soul is bigger than

1583
01:25:29,600 --> 01:25:32,679
Speaker 3: a bread box. I don't know. We never see a soul. Well,

1584
01:25:32,720 --> 01:25:35,040
Speaker 3: maybe we do when the fire skeleton comes out at

1585
01:25:35,080 --> 01:25:36,840
Speaker 3: the end, in which case the soul is the size

1586
01:25:36,880 --> 01:25:37,679
Speaker 3: of a human body.

1587
01:25:37,960 --> 01:25:39,719
Speaker 2: It kind of it's like a it's like a gas.

1588
01:25:39,720 --> 01:25:42,160
Speaker 2: It just expands to fill the entire ring.

1589
01:25:42,240 --> 01:25:45,599
Speaker 3: Yeah. So here there's there's a bunch of back and

1590
01:25:45,640 --> 01:25:48,880
Speaker 3: forth between Gabriel and Simon. I don't know. I took

1591
01:25:48,920 --> 01:25:50,840
Speaker 3: down some of this dialogue because I didn't know if

1592
01:25:50,840 --> 01:25:53,000
Speaker 3: we would want to talk about it to explain the

1593
01:25:53,120 --> 01:25:55,080
Speaker 3: plot at all, But I don't know how much it

1594
01:25:55,160 --> 01:26:00,120
Speaker 3: really illuminates. There's like Gabriel wants the soul. He wants

1595
01:26:00,120 --> 01:26:05,040
Speaker 3: to he wants to end the war with the soul.

1596
01:26:05,280 --> 01:26:09,080
Speaker 3: The soul is a weapon of some kind, because he says,

1597
01:26:09,200 --> 01:26:13,200
Speaker 3: I bow to no human in Heaven, and Simon says,

1598
01:26:13,280 --> 01:26:16,720
Speaker 3: I'm so tired of this war. Simon talks as if

1599
01:26:16,760 --> 01:26:19,799
Speaker 3: he's not part of the war. We talked about that earlier,

1600
01:26:19,800 --> 01:26:21,760
Speaker 3: but it's also kind of implied that he is on

1601
01:26:21,840 --> 01:26:25,360
Speaker 3: the opposite side of it as Gabriel. And you know,

1602
01:26:25,600 --> 01:26:29,000
Speaker 3: they reminisce about when they fought together against Lucifer and

1603
01:26:29,040 --> 01:26:31,080
Speaker 3: his army in the First War of Heaven. I guess

1604
01:26:31,080 --> 01:26:34,639
Speaker 3: they threw down the Devil and his angels, and Simon

1605
01:26:34,720 --> 01:26:37,720
Speaker 3: says they wanted to be God's Gabriel says, I don't

1606
01:26:37,720 --> 01:26:39,920
Speaker 3: want to be a god, Simon. I just want to

1607
01:26:39,920 --> 01:26:42,479
Speaker 3: make it like it was before the lie, when he

1608
01:26:42,600 --> 01:26:47,040
Speaker 3: loved us best. And then Simon starts touching Gabriel's face.

1609
01:26:47,040 --> 01:26:50,080
Speaker 3: They're kind of caressing each other, and Simon says, when

1610
01:26:50,160 --> 01:26:52,439
Speaker 3: was it you lost your grace? I'd like to help

1611
01:26:52,439 --> 01:26:54,760
Speaker 3: your old friend, but I can't. I'm not sure who's

1612
01:26:54,840 --> 01:26:57,880
Speaker 3: right who's wrong, But it doesn't matter. Sometimes you just

1613
01:26:57,960 --> 01:27:00,320
Speaker 3: have to do what you're told. That's who we are are.

1614
01:27:01,080 --> 01:27:03,760
Speaker 3: And then Gabriel has a great cold line, He's got

1615
01:27:03,760 --> 01:27:05,240
Speaker 3: a twinkle in his eye, and he says, you know

1616
01:27:05,280 --> 01:27:07,760
Speaker 3: the great thing about a conversation like this, you never

1617
01:27:07,800 --> 01:27:11,840
Speaker 3: have to have it again. And so he just like

1618
01:27:12,040 --> 01:27:16,320
Speaker 3: uses angel magic to subject Simon to fire torture and

1619
01:27:16,360 --> 01:27:19,519
Speaker 3: then he he just starts burning him and kind of

1620
01:27:19,520 --> 01:27:22,200
Speaker 3: turns it off and on and is like, I can

1621
01:27:22,200 --> 01:27:23,320
Speaker 3: do this all day, Simon.

1622
01:27:23,680 --> 01:27:26,280
Speaker 2: Yeah. First of all, great energy between these two, and

1623
01:27:26,320 --> 01:27:28,559
Speaker 2: I really love there back and forth here. There's a

1624
01:27:28,560 --> 01:27:31,160
Speaker 2: fair amount of lore that for this film that is

1625
01:27:32,200 --> 01:27:35,120
Speaker 2: that is dished out here, like the energy. I love

1626
01:27:35,160 --> 01:27:38,560
Speaker 2: that last line. And then we just get this wonderfully

1627
01:27:38,600 --> 01:27:42,920
Speaker 2: savage scene with some terrifying fire effects. So you very

1628
01:27:43,000 --> 01:27:44,680
Speaker 2: much loved this as well. The way he just kind

1629
01:27:44,680 --> 01:27:47,720
Speaker 2: of like touches him, makes him burst into fire and

1630
01:27:47,720 --> 01:27:49,200
Speaker 2: just kind of like throws him across the room.

1631
01:27:49,680 --> 01:27:51,920
Speaker 3: But he never gets the answer, so eventually he just

1632
01:27:51,920 --> 01:27:56,320
Speaker 3: pulls Simon's hard out like the terminator. Meanwhile, we check

1633
01:27:56,320 --> 01:27:59,400
Speaker 3: in with our human characters. Mary is still sick because

1634
01:27:59,439 --> 01:28:03,320
Speaker 3: of the evil soul. Her grandmother has called a tribal

1635
01:28:03,320 --> 01:28:06,720
Speaker 3: healer who is performing a ritual over her body. They're

1636
01:28:06,760 --> 01:28:08,600
Speaker 3: trying to figure out if she must have what they

1637
01:28:08,680 --> 01:28:10,720
Speaker 3: call a sing, which is implied to be a form

1638
01:28:10,760 --> 01:28:15,960
Speaker 3: of exorcism. Meanwhile, Catherine goes through Mary's crayon drawings and

1639
01:28:16,000 --> 01:28:19,160
Speaker 3: finds a bunch of disturbing scenes of violence in crayon,

1640
01:28:19,320 --> 01:28:22,240
Speaker 3: including gunfights and people impaled on stakes.

1641
01:28:22,479 --> 01:28:26,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, Mary's been drawing war crimes, yes, and that's going

1642
01:28:26,040 --> 01:28:26,679
Speaker 2: to be important.

1643
01:28:26,720 --> 01:28:30,320
Speaker 3: And she's having nightmares about Colonel Hawthorne. So this is

1644
01:28:30,360 --> 01:28:34,320
Speaker 3: the next research segment of the movie. Doubting Thomas arrives

1645
01:28:34,320 --> 01:28:37,320
Speaker 3: in Chimney Rock to pick up the trail. He finds

1646
01:28:37,360 --> 01:28:40,520
Speaker 3: that somebody has dug up the grave of Colonel Hawthorne

1647
01:28:40,960 --> 01:28:44,280
Speaker 3: and also finds the charred Eric Stolts in the school,

1648
01:28:45,120 --> 01:28:48,040
Speaker 3: he meets Catherine, the teacher, and learns sort of the

1649
01:28:48,080 --> 01:28:51,280
Speaker 3: whole backstory with Simon hiding in the school, his encounter

1650
01:28:51,360 --> 01:28:53,840
Speaker 3: with Mary, and Mary's current condition, so he's kind of

1651
01:28:53,840 --> 01:28:58,439
Speaker 3: all caught up now. And at one point he asks

1652
01:28:58,640 --> 01:29:02,200
Speaker 3: Katherine about Old Hawthorne. He's like, did you go to

1653
01:29:02,240 --> 01:29:05,880
Speaker 3: his funeral? She says everybody did? He lived here, And

1654
01:29:05,920 --> 01:29:08,760
Speaker 3: he says, did he have any dark secrets? And she

1655
01:29:08,880 --> 01:29:12,080
Speaker 3: says there are no secrets in the small town, mister Daggett,

1656
01:29:12,160 --> 01:29:16,759
Speaker 3: dark or otherwise. I was like, that's obviously untrue.

1657
01:29:17,320 --> 01:29:18,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's weird how they're laying this out, because I

1658
01:29:18,920 --> 01:29:21,160
Speaker 2: feel like they also established that nobody liked him and

1659
01:29:21,200 --> 01:29:24,800
Speaker 2: he didn't like anybody. It looked like earlier nobody came

1660
01:29:24,840 --> 01:29:27,519
Speaker 2: to his funeral except the angel that came to steal

1661
01:29:27,520 --> 01:29:30,080
Speaker 2: his soul. But they're also like, yeah, oh yeah, everybody

1662
01:29:30,160 --> 01:29:31,639
Speaker 2: knew him. Yeah, of course we went to his funeral.

1663
01:29:31,680 --> 01:29:33,439
Speaker 2: There's nothing going on that night. It's a small town.

1664
01:29:34,040 --> 01:29:37,439
Speaker 3: Also, during this conversation, they're like having it on the

1665
01:29:37,479 --> 01:29:39,760
Speaker 3: playground at the school, and then we pull back the

1666
01:29:39,840 --> 01:29:43,879
Speaker 3: camera to reveal Christopher Walken Bird perching on the school building.

1667
01:29:43,960 --> 01:29:45,120
Speaker 3: Watching them from above.

1668
01:29:45,680 --> 01:29:45,960
Speaker 2: Nice.

1669
01:29:46,280 --> 01:29:50,720
Speaker 3: This was great funny to me again, but also more

1670
01:29:50,760 --> 01:29:53,920
Speaker 3: research mode where Thomas has to go figure out what

1671
01:29:53,920 --> 01:29:56,600
Speaker 3: the deal with Hawthorne is, and so he goes to

1672
01:29:56,640 --> 01:30:00,160
Speaker 3: his house starts digging through his stuff. Hawthorne apparently he

1673
01:30:00,320 --> 01:30:04,760
Speaker 3: kept like a special war crimes keepsake chest. It's full

1674
01:30:04,800 --> 01:30:08,519
Speaker 3: of clippings of newspaper articles about stuff he did in

1675
01:30:08,560 --> 01:30:12,200
Speaker 3: the Korean War with headlines like court accuses Hawthorne of

1676
01:30:12,320 --> 01:30:17,320
Speaker 3: human sacrifices. And then and then Thomas gets out of

1677
01:30:17,439 --> 01:30:21,160
Speaker 3: film canister that is like a real he watches it

1678
01:30:21,200 --> 01:30:25,720
Speaker 3: somehow and a projector that is documenting the atrocities and

1679
01:30:25,760 --> 01:30:29,240
Speaker 3: his subsequent court martial. Kind of sketchy about exactly what

1680
01:30:29,400 --> 01:30:32,360
Speaker 3: all of the charges were, but there are suggestions that

1681
01:30:32,400 --> 01:30:34,800
Speaker 3: he was like Vlad the Impaler, he like put people

1682
01:30:34,800 --> 01:30:37,160
Speaker 3: on stakes, and that he ate the bodies of his

1683
01:30:37,240 --> 01:30:39,879
Speaker 3: victims and he cut their faces off and made masks.

1684
01:30:40,120 --> 01:30:43,080
Speaker 2: And so the government was like, we're gonna dishonorably discharge

1685
01:30:43,080 --> 01:30:46,200
Speaker 2: you for this. You have to go retire in Arizona.

1686
01:30:46,520 --> 01:30:49,400
Speaker 3: Yeah exactly. Yeah, So he did did all of these

1687
01:30:49,439 --> 01:30:52,679
Speaker 3: horrors and then just it's like nough of that he heads, yeah,

1688
01:30:52,800 --> 01:30:57,680
Speaker 3: heads to Arizona. And so after this Thomas he goes

1689
01:30:57,720 --> 01:30:59,680
Speaker 3: to a nearby Catholic church where he sits in a

1690
01:30:59,720 --> 01:31:03,599
Speaker 3: pew and he relives his visions of like the buff

1691
01:31:03,680 --> 01:31:06,639
Speaker 3: naked hunks, gargling blood and having the war in heaven.

1692
01:31:06,960 --> 01:31:12,280
Speaker 3: And here's our first meeting of Christopher Walkin and our protagonist. Here,

1693
01:31:12,479 --> 01:31:14,560
Speaker 3: Christopher Walken is sitting right behind him. It's like that

1694
01:31:14,640 --> 01:31:17,040
Speaker 3: scene in Home Alone where Kevin meets the old man,

1695
01:31:17,240 --> 01:31:17,559
Speaker 3: you know.

1696
01:31:17,520 --> 01:31:19,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, and of course very much like the scene in

1697
01:31:19,520 --> 01:31:25,520
Speaker 2: Highlander where the Kurgan and McLeod and you're right on ground.

1698
01:31:25,200 --> 01:31:28,160
Speaker 3: And why didn't have had some things? Yeah, he wanted

1699
01:31:28,200 --> 01:31:29,519
Speaker 3: to come back to.

1700
01:31:30,120 --> 01:31:33,760
Speaker 2: Also, of note, Gabriel is sitting here, so this does

1701
01:31:33,920 --> 01:31:37,439
Speaker 2: prove that angels can use human share technology or at

1702
01:31:37,479 --> 01:31:38,160
Speaker 2: least pubased.

1703
01:31:39,200 --> 01:31:41,639
Speaker 3: The first thing Gabriel says to him is he says,

1704
01:31:41,640 --> 01:31:44,479
Speaker 3: it's unusual seeing someone your age in a church on

1705
01:31:44,560 --> 01:31:46,680
Speaker 3: a week night. Don't get me wrong. I think it's

1706
01:31:46,680 --> 01:31:50,200
Speaker 3: a sign of excellent character. And then he starts kind

1707
01:31:50,200 --> 01:31:53,599
Speaker 3: of threatening Thomas. Thomas doesn't know what's going on, and

1708
01:31:53,640 --> 01:31:56,519
Speaker 3: Gabriel one of the lines is do you know how

1709
01:31:56,560 --> 01:31:59,040
Speaker 3: you got that dent on your on your upper lip

1710
01:31:59,360 --> 01:32:02,080
Speaker 3: way back before you were born. I told you a secret.

1711
01:32:02,280 --> 01:32:04,479
Speaker 3: Then I put my finger there and I said, sh.

1712
01:32:07,520 --> 01:32:07,760
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1713
01:32:08,160 --> 01:32:09,840
Speaker 3: I mean whatever else do you think about this movie?

1714
01:32:10,439 --> 01:32:13,080
Speaker 3: A lot of walking scenes and lines are just great.

1715
01:32:13,439 --> 01:32:15,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it will be already. I think this

1716
01:32:15,600 --> 01:32:17,680
Speaker 2: is already a creepy line, but then Walkin brings it

1717
01:32:17,720 --> 01:32:20,400
Speaker 2: to the next level, like tremendous.

1718
01:32:21,840 --> 01:32:24,320
Speaker 3: What's the may with the horn blowing scene after this?

1719
01:32:25,080 --> 01:32:26,880
Speaker 3: Like got all the kids blowing a trumpet?

1720
01:32:27,439 --> 01:32:29,720
Speaker 2: You know this is you know, first of all your

1721
01:32:30,520 --> 01:32:34,599
Speaker 2: creepy outside of character interacting with children always good good,

1722
01:32:34,880 --> 01:32:36,920
Speaker 2: But then also yeah, this is the horn of judgment, right,

1723
01:32:37,000 --> 01:32:39,439
Speaker 2: this is the horn that Gabriel will blow and bring

1724
01:32:39,520 --> 01:32:42,800
Speaker 2: about the end times. And he's just letting kids play

1725
01:32:42,800 --> 01:32:45,759
Speaker 2: with it. Here one of them gives a proper tuote

1726
01:32:45,760 --> 01:32:48,120
Speaker 2: on the thing and like it makes a window explode

1727
01:32:48,240 --> 01:32:49,519
Speaker 2: on the upper floor of the school.

1728
01:32:50,320 --> 01:32:52,599
Speaker 3: Is there a reason he's having the kids blow the horn?

1729
01:32:52,800 --> 01:32:54,960
Speaker 3: Is he trying to find which one of them has

1730
01:32:55,120 --> 01:32:55,960
Speaker 3: the evil soul?

1731
01:32:56,240 --> 01:32:58,280
Speaker 2: That's what he's doing? Yes, okay, yeah, because he also

1732
01:32:58,320 --> 01:33:00,000
Speaker 2: is like he looks in one of their mouths and

1733
01:33:00,080 --> 01:33:01,840
Speaker 2: he's like, let me take a look. Nope, not you.

1734
01:33:01,960 --> 01:33:05,719
Speaker 2: So he suspects that a child is holding the soul

1735
01:33:05,760 --> 01:33:07,559
Speaker 2: and there's nothing more to be done but to just

1736
01:33:07,560 --> 01:33:09,719
Speaker 2: go around and look in all the children's mouths.

1737
01:33:11,479 --> 01:33:14,519
Speaker 3: Anyway, Catherine arrives on scene and is like something, this

1738
01:33:14,600 --> 01:33:16,920
Speaker 3: is not good and tries to make him leave. Also

1739
01:33:17,200 --> 01:33:21,000
Speaker 3: in this Jerry the Familiar is like melting at this point.

1740
01:33:21,040 --> 01:33:26,040
Speaker 3: He has brundlefly syndrome going on. Yeah, and then also

1741
01:33:26,320 --> 01:33:29,960
Speaker 3: I guess because he is undead sort of. And then

1742
01:33:30,120 --> 01:33:33,280
Speaker 3: after this there is a scene where Catherine and Thomas

1743
01:33:33,320 --> 01:33:36,800
Speaker 3: are asking Mary about what Simon the Angel told her

1744
01:33:36,840 --> 01:33:39,960
Speaker 3: before he died. She doesn't reveal it, but she does

1745
01:33:40,520 --> 01:33:44,120
Speaker 3: temporarily become possessed by the spirit of Colonel Hawthorne and

1746
01:33:44,200 --> 01:33:46,560
Speaker 3: just starts monologuing about how cool it is to be

1747
01:33:46,680 --> 01:33:51,120
Speaker 3: evil and do murder. Yeah, and then we learn we

1748
01:33:51,240 --> 01:33:54,320
Speaker 3: learn Mary's grandmother is arranging to have her go through

1749
01:33:54,400 --> 01:33:58,200
Speaker 3: a healing and exorcism ritual on their tribal lands, and

1750
01:33:58,360 --> 01:34:01,880
Speaker 3: Catherine asks Thomas do you know what's going on here?

1751
01:34:02,880 --> 01:34:05,800
Speaker 3: And Thomas gives, I don't know. You see what we

1752
01:34:05,840 --> 01:34:09,639
Speaker 3: think of this response, he says, did you ever notice

1753
01:34:09,680 --> 01:34:12,400
Speaker 3: how in the Bible, whenever God needed to punish someone

1754
01:34:12,680 --> 01:34:15,519
Speaker 3: or make an example, or whenever God needed a killing,

1755
01:34:15,640 --> 01:34:18,200
Speaker 3: he sent an angel. Did you ever wonder what a

1756
01:34:18,240 --> 01:34:21,719
Speaker 3: creature like that must be? Like a whole existence spent

1757
01:34:21,840 --> 01:34:25,240
Speaker 3: praising your God, but always with one wing dipped in blood?

1758
01:34:25,600 --> 01:34:29,280
Speaker 3: Would you ever really want to see an angel? I

1759
01:34:29,320 --> 01:34:32,800
Speaker 3: have this I think highlights a kind of tension in

1760
01:34:32,880 --> 01:34:36,240
Speaker 3: how I'm receiving the movie, which is that, on one hand,

1761
01:34:37,600 --> 01:34:41,040
Speaker 3: the way it interfaces with the actual characters in plot

1762
01:34:41,600 --> 01:34:44,800
Speaker 3: feels kind of awkward and hokey. But at the same time,

1763
01:34:44,920 --> 01:34:47,240
Speaker 3: the core premise I think is a very cool one

1764
01:34:47,280 --> 01:34:51,120
Speaker 3: to explore, Like, you know, the actual how truly frightening

1765
01:34:51,120 --> 01:34:53,920
Speaker 3: it would be if you took the concept of angels

1766
01:34:53,960 --> 01:34:55,880
Speaker 3: as independent being seriously.

1767
01:34:56,320 --> 01:34:58,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like this line feels like it could have been

1768
01:34:58,040 --> 01:35:00,360
Speaker 2: a part of the initial pitch for the film, Like,

1769
01:35:00,439 --> 01:35:02,519
Speaker 2: imagine what it would be to actually meet an angel?

1770
01:35:02,560 --> 01:35:06,080
Speaker 2: And I do like the one wing dipped in blood? Yeah, though,

1771
01:35:06,120 --> 01:35:07,920
Speaker 2: I should say sometimes God just sends one when he

1772
01:35:07,960 --> 01:35:10,240
Speaker 2: needs someone to be wrestled. Yeah, He's like, I'm not

1773
01:35:10,240 --> 01:35:13,680
Speaker 2: going to wrestle someone myself, send in an angel to

1774
01:35:13,680 --> 01:35:13,920
Speaker 2: do it.

1775
01:35:14,280 --> 01:35:16,840
Speaker 3: I think after this speech. By the way, Catherine says,

1776
01:35:16,840 --> 01:35:21,439
Speaker 3: why are you asking me this? Yeah, Catherine, why He

1777
01:35:21,520 --> 01:35:24,120
Speaker 3: seems to be kind of on something on another thing.

1778
01:35:25,200 --> 01:35:29,720
Speaker 3: But eventually they're like, okay, the angels want Colonel Hawthorne,

1779
01:35:29,840 --> 01:35:33,280
Speaker 3: and Colonel Hawthorne's soul is in Mary, so they basically

1780
01:35:33,320 --> 01:35:37,519
Speaker 3: work out what's going on. They're ready to team up now, too,

1781
01:35:37,520 --> 01:35:39,880
Speaker 3: so they decide to hunt down the Scabriel guy and

1782
01:35:40,800 --> 01:35:43,120
Speaker 3: find out what his deal is. They track him to

1783
01:35:43,160 --> 01:35:45,880
Speaker 3: an abandoned mind shaft. He's not in there right now,

1784
01:35:45,920 --> 01:35:47,680
Speaker 3: but they find a sleeping bag and a bunch of

1785
01:35:47,720 --> 01:35:50,599
Speaker 3: trash and all kinds of weird writing on the walls

1786
01:35:50,600 --> 01:35:55,320
Speaker 3: of the tunnel, which Thomas identifies as angelic script, and

1787
01:35:55,360 --> 01:35:57,759
Speaker 3: then while looking at it, they both have a horrible

1788
01:35:57,880 --> 01:36:01,360
Speaker 3: vision of a great war in heaven. They see this

1789
01:36:01,680 --> 01:36:05,360
Speaker 3: landscape of death with flags and banners and a sunrise

1790
01:36:05,439 --> 01:36:09,120
Speaker 3: breaking over a mountain and the light falling on thousands

1791
01:36:09,160 --> 01:36:13,360
Speaker 3: of bodies of winged angels impaled on spikes. It's a

1792
01:36:13,400 --> 01:36:17,920
Speaker 3: pretty horrifying image, and it it has the feeling I like,

1793
01:36:17,960 --> 01:36:19,920
Speaker 3: the way it looks in the movie has the feeling

1794
01:36:20,000 --> 01:36:23,280
Speaker 3: of like a kind of one of those Romantic era

1795
01:36:23,400 --> 01:36:24,880
Speaker 3: paintings of a battlefield.

1796
01:36:25,520 --> 01:36:27,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this we also see one that's kind of

1797
01:36:27,840 --> 01:36:30,280
Speaker 2: like in the room with them. Like the vision expands

1798
01:36:30,280 --> 01:36:34,439
Speaker 2: where we get one angelic being impale and the spike

1799
01:36:34,600 --> 01:36:36,160
Speaker 2: like snarling and screaming.

1800
01:36:35,720 --> 01:36:39,280
Speaker 3: And stuff, and Thomas shouts no, and he throws a

1801
01:36:39,360 --> 01:36:42,479
Speaker 3: lantern against the wall and it explodes and the vision ceases.

1802
01:36:42,680 --> 01:36:44,599
Speaker 3: But what's he saying no about? Like, no, I don't

1803
01:36:44,600 --> 01:36:45,120
Speaker 3: want to see that.

1804
01:36:45,360 --> 01:36:49,719
Speaker 2: I guess yes, like cancel vision, do not accept Marcus

1805
01:36:49,760 --> 01:36:51,200
Speaker 2: spam navigate back.

1806
01:36:51,280 --> 01:36:56,960
Speaker 3: Yeah. Y. So Thomas and Catherine conclude that the secret

1807
01:36:57,000 --> 01:37:00,240
Speaker 3: bonus chapter of revelation was right. There was another in

1808
01:37:00,280 --> 01:37:02,479
Speaker 3: heaven and it's still going on. Gabriel is an angel.

1809
01:37:03,000 --> 01:37:05,120
Speaker 3: I guess they're catching up to what we already know.

1810
01:37:05,200 --> 01:37:07,120
Speaker 3: But he wants to get the soul so they can

1811
01:37:07,160 --> 01:37:10,840
Speaker 3: win the war. So they go back to Mary's home

1812
01:37:10,920 --> 01:37:13,959
Speaker 3: to protect her. But here there's a confrontation because Gabriel

1813
01:37:14,040 --> 01:37:17,080
Speaker 3: is here. He explains to them that yes, he is

1814
01:37:17,200 --> 01:37:19,559
Speaker 3: going to have to rip this child into pieces and

1815
01:37:19,560 --> 01:37:22,360
Speaker 3: steal her soul. But he says, Thomas, you're a good

1816
01:37:22,400 --> 01:37:25,599
Speaker 3: Catholic boy. You should be on my side. And then

1817
01:37:25,640 --> 01:37:29,240
Speaker 3: they start to fight. Gabriel's servant Jerry, is killed in

1818
01:37:29,280 --> 01:37:33,000
Speaker 3: the fight, and he thanks Thomas for shooting him. He's like, see,

1819
01:37:33,080 --> 01:37:37,400
Speaker 3: I'm out of here again the vampire's familiar archetype, and

1820
01:37:37,479 --> 01:37:40,040
Speaker 3: Gabriel gives a bunch of he monologues a lot here.

1821
01:37:40,080 --> 01:37:43,400
Speaker 3: He's like, I'm an angel, you know, I destroy everything.

1822
01:37:43,439 --> 01:37:46,360
Speaker 3: I turn cities into salt. I rip your soul apart,

1823
01:37:47,040 --> 01:37:48,840
Speaker 3: and then he says, the only thing you can count

1824
01:37:48,840 --> 01:37:51,120
Speaker 3: on in your existence is never understanding.

1825
01:37:51,240 --> 01:37:54,680
Speaker 2: Why chilling a little monologue from work. Yeah, this is

1826
01:37:54,720 --> 01:37:56,639
Speaker 2: one I think they just pops up in the trailer

1827
01:37:56,640 --> 01:37:57,200
Speaker 2: for the film.

1828
01:37:58,840 --> 01:38:02,000
Speaker 3: That's not a bad little taunt. Yeah, It's like, I'm

1829
01:38:02,000 --> 01:38:04,000
Speaker 3: gonna be doing stuff you're never gonna understand.

1830
01:38:04,400 --> 01:38:06,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is not your place to understand it.

1831
01:38:06,400 --> 01:38:07,800
Speaker 2: You were not meant to understand.

1832
01:38:08,080 --> 01:38:12,320
Speaker 3: So there's more fighting. Eventually, Thomas and Catherine together manage

1833
01:38:12,360 --> 01:38:15,840
Speaker 3: to wound to Gabriel and escape with Mary. Once again.

1834
01:38:16,000 --> 01:38:18,640
Speaker 3: Gabriel seems he's kind of like the Terminator. He's not

1835
01:38:18,920 --> 01:38:24,800
Speaker 3: invincible against conventional weapons, but he is unusually tough. Oh

1836
01:38:24,840 --> 01:38:28,080
Speaker 3: and Mary now has knowledge about angels somehow. She says

1837
01:38:28,120 --> 01:38:31,040
Speaker 3: angels on Earth are not immortal, but to kill them

1838
01:38:31,080 --> 01:38:33,960
Speaker 3: for good you have to cut their hearts out. And

1839
01:38:34,040 --> 01:38:36,559
Speaker 3: there's a great little moment here where they they're like

1840
01:38:36,640 --> 01:38:39,640
Speaker 3: taking away Christopher Walkin's body and he like opens his

1841
01:38:39,680 --> 01:38:51,879
Speaker 3: eyes and winks at them out of a carridoor. So anyway,

1842
01:38:51,960 --> 01:38:54,639
Speaker 3: our good characters make their way up into the high country.

1843
01:38:54,680 --> 01:38:58,360
Speaker 3: They go up onto a butte to the settlement of

1844
01:38:58,840 --> 01:39:02,439
Speaker 3: an unnamed tribe overlooking the desert, where the local elders

1845
01:39:02,479 --> 01:39:05,679
Speaker 3: begin to sing and chant over Mary in a ritual

1846
01:39:05,760 --> 01:39:08,960
Speaker 3: to get the evil spirit out of her. And then

1847
01:39:09,080 --> 01:39:11,479
Speaker 3: here they're like, let's introduce some new characters.

1848
01:39:11,560 --> 01:39:13,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, he said, twenty minutes left in the film or something,

1849
01:39:14,439 --> 01:39:15,280
Speaker 2: just like let him out.

1850
01:39:15,479 --> 01:39:18,679
Speaker 3: So we get a scene of the recruitment of Amanda

1851
01:39:18,720 --> 01:39:22,320
Speaker 3: Plumber at a hospital playing a character named Rachel, and

1852
01:39:22,520 --> 01:39:25,720
Speaker 3: Gabriel shows up at her hospital bed and is like, hey,

1853
01:39:25,960 --> 01:39:28,400
Speaker 3: you work for me now, and she starts crying, and

1854
01:39:28,479 --> 01:39:30,479
Speaker 3: he does the same thing he was saying to Jerry

1855
01:39:30,479 --> 01:39:32,639
Speaker 3: whenever he would start crying. He would say, don't start

1856
01:39:32,640 --> 01:39:36,320
Speaker 3: with that, Like, Gabriel can't stand hearing people cry.

1857
01:39:36,720 --> 01:39:41,760
Speaker 2: Yeah again, Amanda Plumber kind of criminally underused here, but yeah,

1858
01:39:41,760 --> 01:39:42,400
Speaker 2: but she's good.

1859
01:39:42,960 --> 01:39:48,000
Speaker 3: Also, up at the up on the butte, they the

1860
01:39:48,200 --> 01:39:54,639
Speaker 3: human characters Catherine and Thomas meet Lucifer. Yep, here's the devil.

1861
01:39:55,400 --> 01:39:58,320
Speaker 3: Lucifer is also perching like the angel doing the bird perch.

1862
01:39:59,320 --> 01:40:02,479
Speaker 3: He says like, hello, Catherine, we must talk, and she says,

1863
01:40:02,520 --> 01:40:05,559
Speaker 3: oh my God, and he says, God, God is love.

1864
01:40:06,040 --> 01:40:09,880
Speaker 3: I don't love you. And he gives some pretty good

1865
01:40:09,920 --> 01:40:14,679
Speaker 3: monologues here where it's strange that he is not a

1866
01:40:14,720 --> 01:40:19,160
Speaker 3: good character, but he ends up helping the protagonists because

1867
01:40:19,479 --> 01:40:20,599
Speaker 3: they have a common enemy.

1868
01:40:21,000 --> 01:40:25,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, Mortenson's Lucifer is interesting because you know, Gabriel has

1869
01:40:25,360 --> 01:40:28,360
Speaker 2: taken on some of the attributes that you might normally

1870
01:40:28,400 --> 01:40:31,559
Speaker 2: expect for a Satan character to have, and so we

1871
01:40:31,880 --> 01:40:35,680
Speaker 2: clearly have to differentiate who Lucifer is and what he is,

1872
01:40:36,160 --> 01:40:39,160
Speaker 2: And we end up with this again, like this mean, nasty, dangerous,

1873
01:40:39,280 --> 01:40:45,280
Speaker 2: kind of scatological, warped figure, but one who is not

1874
01:40:45,400 --> 01:40:50,320
Speaker 2: as absolutely anti human as Gabriel and his rebels. Like

1875
01:40:50,400 --> 01:40:52,960
Speaker 2: maybe he's like, I hate angels more than I hate people,

1876
01:40:53,320 --> 01:40:55,760
Speaker 2: and therefore I'm willing to help you guys out with

1877
01:40:55,800 --> 01:40:59,000
Speaker 2: this one. But the nature of the help is a

1878
01:40:59,000 --> 01:40:59,840
Speaker 2: little shaky.

1879
01:41:00,560 --> 01:41:04,120
Speaker 3: And I like that Satan always has a little event

1880
01:41:04,160 --> 01:41:07,960
Speaker 3: horizon ghoul with him, a guy he's in a little

1881
01:41:08,560 --> 01:41:11,280
Speaker 3: you know, hood, and cloak who's going to He's a

1882
01:41:11,280 --> 01:41:14,080
Speaker 3: little bit cinnabite, a little bit something else.

1883
01:41:14,320 --> 01:41:16,200
Speaker 2: Yeah. I don't know if this is another fallen angel

1884
01:41:16,320 --> 01:41:18,320
Speaker 2: or this is like a tortured soul, but it's like

1885
01:41:18,360 --> 01:41:21,080
Speaker 2: Lucifer's height man. In fact, they're just in the background

1886
01:41:21,120 --> 01:41:23,880
Speaker 2: to sort of back up what Lucifer's laying down.

1887
01:41:24,400 --> 01:41:29,360
Speaker 3: But Lucifer during this encounter provides wisdom that Thomas needs.

1888
01:41:30,040 --> 01:41:32,720
Speaker 3: I didn't fully understand how all of this worked out

1889
01:41:32,760 --> 01:41:37,640
Speaker 3: in the end, but Vigo suggests that Thomas defeat Gabriel

1890
01:41:37,720 --> 01:41:41,280
Speaker 3: by causing him to question his faith. He says, use

1891
01:41:41,320 --> 01:41:46,400
Speaker 3: it like an acting coach. So anyway, they sense that

1892
01:41:46,520 --> 01:41:48,840
Speaker 3: Gabriel is now coming. He's in a car being driven

1893
01:41:48,840 --> 01:41:53,400
Speaker 3: by Amanda Plumber. He's on this long road approaching the butte. Meanwhile,

1894
01:41:53,400 --> 01:41:56,439
Speaker 3: inside the nearby house, Mary's family and friends are doing

1895
01:41:56,439 --> 01:41:58,800
Speaker 3: the ritual to heal her and get the bad spirit out,

1896
01:41:59,200 --> 01:42:02,280
Speaker 3: and this comes up to a final showdown. One thing

1897
01:42:02,520 --> 01:42:05,240
Speaker 3: is that it involves a trap, a physical trap. I've

1898
01:42:05,360 --> 01:42:07,439
Speaker 3: mentioned this on the show A lot. I just always

1899
01:42:07,439 --> 01:42:09,639
Speaker 3: love setting a trap for the monster in the final

1900
01:42:09,680 --> 01:42:11,519
Speaker 3: showdown that I don't know that just always gets is

1901
01:42:11,640 --> 01:42:15,719
Speaker 3: like the thing from another world Predator Nightmare on Elm Street.

1902
01:42:15,760 --> 01:42:17,679
Speaker 3: I always love it when there's a trap for the monster.

1903
01:42:18,080 --> 01:42:21,559
Speaker 2: M yep yep. In this case, is in human ingenuity

1904
01:42:21,640 --> 01:42:23,080
Speaker 2: to overcome an inhuman folk?

1905
01:42:23,560 --> 01:42:26,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, first to overcome a car. They like, stretch

1906
01:42:26,520 --> 01:42:29,519
Speaker 3: a chain across the road and they wreck Gabriel's car.

1907
01:42:29,800 --> 01:42:32,000
Speaker 2: Now is Gabriel ejected? He's not wearing a seat belt?

1908
01:42:32,120 --> 01:42:34,439
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah. He gets launched out of the car and

1909
01:42:34,520 --> 01:42:39,000
Speaker 3: he comes to Tomas saying, he goes, nice move, beautifully done. Tommy,

1910
01:42:39,160 --> 01:42:41,760
Speaker 3: you ought to come work for me upstairs. I could

1911
01:42:41,800 --> 01:42:43,840
Speaker 3: get you in now. You'll love it. No one tells

1912
01:42:43,880 --> 01:42:45,400
Speaker 3: you when to go to bed. You eat all the

1913
01:42:45,439 --> 01:42:47,639
Speaker 3: ice cream you want. You get to kill all day

1914
01:42:47,640 --> 01:42:49,439
Speaker 3: and all night, just like an angel.

1915
01:42:50,479 --> 01:42:51,519
Speaker 2: I think he's having a laugh.

1916
01:42:51,560 --> 01:42:54,679
Speaker 3: Here he is and Thomas here, here's where he starts.

1917
01:42:54,840 --> 01:42:57,200
Speaker 3: He starts kind of getting him. He's trying to, you know,

1918
01:42:57,439 --> 01:42:59,960
Speaker 3: make him, make him question, make him question his faith.

1919
01:43:00,439 --> 01:43:02,600
Speaker 3: He says, I'm not an angel, just a man. But

1920
01:43:02,680 --> 01:43:06,519
Speaker 3: I've got something you don't a soul. And this is

1921
01:43:06,560 --> 01:43:09,599
Speaker 3: a little weird because I don't know you can tell

1922
01:43:09,600 --> 01:43:12,280
Speaker 3: me if I'm wrong here, Rob, unless there's something I missed.

1923
01:43:12,960 --> 01:43:15,800
Speaker 3: There's really no work done earlier in the film to

1924
01:43:16,000 --> 01:43:19,439
Speaker 3: establish this as an important distinction. There is a line

1925
01:43:19,560 --> 01:43:23,160
Speaker 3: earlier about when God gave humans a soul, the angels

1926
01:43:23,160 --> 01:43:27,360
Speaker 3: became jealous. But now this is establishing not just that

1927
01:43:27,479 --> 01:43:30,519
Speaker 3: humans have a soul, but that angels don't have souls.

1928
01:43:31,320 --> 01:43:33,559
Speaker 3: What does it mean for them not to have a soul?

1929
01:43:33,640 --> 01:43:36,160
Speaker 3: What is a soul in the context of this story.

1930
01:43:36,760 --> 01:43:38,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like we're left to do the legwork

1931
01:43:38,760 --> 01:43:40,960
Speaker 2: on trying to figure out what a soul is in

1932
01:43:41,080 --> 01:43:44,320
Speaker 2: the context of the Prophecy franchise. Does it mean like

1933
01:43:44,360 --> 01:43:47,360
Speaker 2: a part of God is in you? Like? What's their

1934
01:43:47,400 --> 01:43:50,080
Speaker 2: theological approach to this? Well, all we know is that

1935
01:43:50,120 --> 01:43:51,240
Speaker 2: it's bigger than a bread.

1936
01:43:51,000 --> 01:43:55,200
Speaker 3: Box, right, Yes, So this makes Gabriel mad. He wants

1937
01:43:55,240 --> 01:43:58,240
Speaker 3: to inflict pain on Thomas, but Thomas keeps taunting him.

1938
01:43:58,240 --> 01:44:01,040
Speaker 3: He says, your war is a lie. He says, I

1939
01:44:01,080 --> 01:44:02,880
Speaker 3: know what it's like to be you. I know what

1940
01:44:02,920 --> 01:44:05,439
Speaker 3: it's like to be ignored, pushed aside, and then he

1941
01:44:05,479 --> 01:44:08,360
Speaker 3: asserts you hate God. You hate him just a little

1942
01:44:08,360 --> 01:44:11,559
Speaker 3: bit because you're jealous, because he loves something more than you,

1943
01:44:12,080 --> 01:44:13,040
Speaker 3: something with the soul.

1944
01:44:13,640 --> 01:44:16,719
Speaker 2: I like this kind of he was able to channel

1945
01:44:16,720 --> 01:44:18,240
Speaker 2: a little to Nero there, so you hate him just

1946
01:44:18,320 --> 01:44:19,360
Speaker 2: a little bit, just.

1947
01:44:19,320 --> 01:44:22,559
Speaker 3: A little bit, Yeah, just a little bit. And then

1948
01:44:22,600 --> 01:44:25,000
Speaker 3: he also says, if you wanted to prove your side

1949
01:44:25,080 --> 01:44:27,760
Speaker 3: was right so badly, why don't you just ask him?

1950
01:44:28,080 --> 01:44:31,360
Speaker 3: Why don't you just ask God? And then Gabriel gets

1951
01:44:31,400 --> 01:44:33,759
Speaker 3: a little bit vulnerable and he says, because he doesn't

1952
01:44:33,840 --> 01:44:37,679
Speaker 3: talk to me anymore. This is another one of these

1953
01:44:37,720 --> 01:44:40,960
Speaker 3: like points back in the column of interesting premise for

1954
01:44:41,720 --> 01:44:44,840
Speaker 3: a movie for me, Like, there is a war in heaven,

1955
01:44:44,880 --> 01:44:48,680
Speaker 3: but whenever you imagine a war in heaven, you imagine

1956
01:44:48,720 --> 01:44:52,800
Speaker 3: God is involved, is maybe not physically fighting in an

1957
01:44:52,800 --> 01:44:56,320
Speaker 3: embodied form, but is a partisan in the war in

1958
01:44:56,360 --> 01:44:59,880
Speaker 3: heaven and has you know, is interacting with at least

1959
01:45:00,120 --> 01:45:03,000
Speaker 3: one side of this war. But the implication here is

1960
01:45:03,040 --> 01:45:05,200
Speaker 3: that there's a war in heaven and maybe God is

1961
01:45:05,560 --> 01:45:09,880
Speaker 3: nowhere to be found, not involved in the conflict at all.

1962
01:45:10,120 --> 01:45:13,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree, Like the just is one moment of

1963
01:45:13,040 --> 01:45:17,840
Speaker 2: them alluding to it here, but it does raise that possibility. Yeah,

1964
01:45:17,920 --> 01:45:20,000
Speaker 2: it feels like there's a war going on in heaven

1965
01:45:20,040 --> 01:45:22,559
Speaker 2: and God is just absent, Like God is just hands

1966
01:45:22,600 --> 01:45:26,520
Speaker 2: off and that that is, you know, concerning and perplexing

1967
01:45:26,560 --> 01:45:27,320
Speaker 2: at the same time.

1968
01:45:27,680 --> 01:45:32,439
Speaker 3: Yeah. Anyway, Okay, so we're zooming toward the final showdown here.

1969
01:45:32,479 --> 01:45:35,280
Speaker 3: So Gabriel leaves Thomas and heads off to eat the

1970
01:45:35,360 --> 01:45:38,959
Speaker 3: child's soul. When he gets there, Catherine defends her. Catherine

1971
01:45:39,520 --> 01:45:43,639
Speaker 3: shoots Gabriel, but he is still not deterred. He says,

1972
01:45:43,800 --> 01:45:48,240
Speaker 3: in heaven we believe in love, and she says kind

1973
01:45:48,240 --> 01:45:51,040
Speaker 3: of awkward line. She says, what do you love, Gabriel,

1974
01:45:51,600 --> 01:45:54,559
Speaker 3: And then he goes cracking your skull and then he

1975
01:45:54,560 --> 01:45:58,840
Speaker 3: grabs her and starts to do a Jason Vorhees head squeeze. Yeah,

1976
01:45:58,880 --> 01:46:01,919
Speaker 3: but then Thomas races him with the truck, is attacked

1977
01:46:01,920 --> 01:46:04,439
Speaker 3: by Amanda Plumber in the truck, and then ends up

1978
01:46:04,439 --> 01:46:08,760
Speaker 3: crashing into the house where everybody is gathered somehow implausibly,

1979
01:46:08,840 --> 01:46:12,760
Speaker 3: but fortunately, only Gabriel is wounded in this crash. Oh,

1980
01:46:12,800 --> 01:46:17,960
Speaker 3: and Amanda Plumber seemingly dies, but with Gabriel wounded, Lucifer

1981
01:46:18,000 --> 01:46:20,599
Speaker 3: shows up to finish the job. They kind of banter

1982
01:46:20,760 --> 01:46:23,720
Speaker 3: back and forth about the war. Gabriel says, the war

1983
01:46:23,840 --> 01:46:27,120
Speaker 3: is mine. Lucifer says, your war is arrogance. That makes

1984
01:46:27,160 --> 01:46:32,960
Speaker 3: it evil, and that's mine. So another question here, like, wait,

1985
01:46:33,000 --> 01:46:35,599
Speaker 3: I thought Lucifer was not involved in this second war,

1986
01:46:35,680 --> 01:46:38,840
Speaker 3: that was my understanding. But why is Gabriel spitting at

1987
01:46:38,880 --> 01:46:39,839
Speaker 3: him about victory?

1988
01:46:40,439 --> 01:46:45,559
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, little uncertain here, but we're racing towards the

1989
01:46:45,560 --> 01:46:48,040
Speaker 2: finish here and right that the film is convinced that

1990
01:46:48,080 --> 01:46:50,240
Speaker 2: this solves things for us exactly.

1991
01:46:50,280 --> 01:46:52,960
Speaker 3: So the Exorcism of Mary goes on. In the background,

1992
01:46:53,040 --> 01:46:56,960
Speaker 3: Lucifer starts eating Gabriel's heart, and at the moment this happens,

1993
01:46:56,960 --> 01:46:58,679
Speaker 3: he like takes a big chomp out of the heart

1994
01:46:58,760 --> 01:47:01,400
Speaker 3: and then Mary coughs up a skeleton made of CGI

1995
01:47:01,400 --> 01:47:04,040
Speaker 3: fire that gets obliterated by a ray of light from

1996
01:47:04,080 --> 01:47:04,680
Speaker 3: the clouds.

1997
01:47:05,640 --> 01:47:08,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this looks bad compared to the mostly great

1998
01:47:08,800 --> 01:47:11,600
Speaker 2: practical effects in the film. This was apparently a Mirramax

1999
01:47:11,640 --> 01:47:14,439
Speaker 2: producer suggests, if I remember correctly where they're like, you

2000
01:47:14,479 --> 01:47:16,880
Speaker 2: should do some CGI here. Oh. I also want to

2001
01:47:16,920 --> 01:47:20,920
Speaker 2: mention in the scene where Lucifer reappears, there's a moment

2002
01:47:21,520 --> 01:47:25,479
Speaker 2: Morrison's character has some great like snarling and speaking weird

2003
01:47:25,520 --> 01:47:28,360
Speaker 2: things to the side, and there's one moment where he

2004
01:47:28,479 --> 01:47:32,160
Speaker 2: speaks to the indigenous characters and speaks to them in

2005
01:47:32,160 --> 01:47:36,439
Speaker 2: their own language, and that was apparently Vigo's idea, like

2006
01:47:36,600 --> 01:47:40,200
Speaker 2: the actual script had English language, and he's like, well,

2007
01:47:40,439 --> 01:47:42,240
Speaker 2: he would be able to speak in any language, so

2008
01:47:42,280 --> 01:47:44,920
Speaker 2: I should know what they would say, and I will

2009
01:47:44,920 --> 01:47:46,439
Speaker 2: say that and they'll teach me to say it, and

2010
01:47:46,439 --> 01:47:47,360
Speaker 2: that's how it rolled out.

2011
01:47:47,640 --> 01:47:50,280
Speaker 3: I think at one point he speaks to Gabriel. Gabriel

2012
01:47:50,320 --> 01:47:50,880
Speaker 3: in Latin.

2013
01:47:51,400 --> 01:47:53,040
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I mean.

2014
01:47:52,960 --> 01:47:55,639
Speaker 3: Just briefly, and then for our benefit, speaks in English.

2015
01:47:55,640 --> 01:47:58,920
Speaker 2: But yeah, Glatin of course the language of Evan apparently,

2016
01:48:00,320 --> 01:48:04,879
Speaker 2: I think, just association with Catholicism maybe yeah, yeah, anyway,

2017
01:48:06,240 --> 01:48:09,759
Speaker 2: they could have spoke like, you know anything, yeah, anything,

2018
01:48:09,800 --> 01:48:12,680
Speaker 2: could have been some sort of caveman language or something. Yeah.

2019
01:48:12,720 --> 01:48:17,040
Speaker 3: So after this, Lucifer starts like he eats Gabriel's heart,

2020
01:48:17,080 --> 01:48:19,360
Speaker 3: so you think the main dangerous past, but then he

2021
01:48:19,439 --> 01:48:22,720
Speaker 3: also starts like turning on Thomas and Catherine, like come

2022
01:48:22,760 --> 01:48:24,800
Speaker 3: to hell with me. He starts telling them to come

2023
01:48:24,800 --> 01:48:29,760
Speaker 3: home to Hell, and Thomas taunts Lucifer saying I have

2024
01:48:29,800 --> 01:48:32,080
Speaker 3: a soul and I have faith, You're nothing.

2025
01:48:32,640 --> 01:48:34,919
Speaker 2: No, thank you, No, I don't.

2026
01:48:34,720 --> 01:48:36,040
Speaker 3: Want to go to hell. Thank you.

2027
01:48:36,240 --> 01:48:37,639
Speaker 2: Yeah.

2028
01:48:37,680 --> 01:48:40,559
Speaker 3: And then the last thing Lucifer says again a good

2029
01:48:40,560 --> 01:48:43,280
Speaker 3: goods end offline. He says, leave the light on Thomas,

2030
01:48:43,360 --> 01:48:46,439
Speaker 3: and then just disappears. He explode, Actually doesn't just disappear.

2031
01:48:46,479 --> 01:48:48,040
Speaker 3: He explodes in a cloud of ravens.

2032
01:48:48,200 --> 01:48:48,760
Speaker 2: There you go.

2033
01:48:49,240 --> 01:48:53,440
Speaker 3: And then I'm sorry again, but a very funny transition

2034
01:48:53,560 --> 01:48:56,720
Speaker 3: to suddenly happy ending music just kicks right in.

2035
01:48:57,120 --> 01:48:59,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know I agree with you on all of this.

2036
01:48:59,240 --> 01:49:01,200
Speaker 2: At this point in the film, I wish things are

2037
01:49:01,240 --> 01:49:03,799
Speaker 2: just ended, because from here on out it really feels

2038
01:49:03,840 --> 01:49:07,400
Speaker 2: like someone either decided or was told, hey, let's keep

2039
01:49:07,439 --> 01:49:08,559
Speaker 2: it a little light hearted here.

2040
01:49:09,200 --> 01:49:11,160
Speaker 3: First of all, we see all the characters are okay now,

2041
01:49:11,200 --> 01:49:13,240
Speaker 3: and the good part of the ending like this, I

2042
01:49:13,240 --> 01:49:15,000
Speaker 3: guess is that you would feel kind of bad if

2043
01:49:15,040 --> 01:49:16,880
Speaker 3: you like saw Mary go through all that and then

2044
01:49:16,880 --> 01:49:18,559
Speaker 3: you like don't get to see her being all right

2045
01:49:18,600 --> 01:49:20,960
Speaker 3: at the end. So Mary the kid is okay, and

2046
01:49:21,000 --> 01:49:23,639
Speaker 3: so that's good to see, like, okay, she's doing all right.

2047
01:49:23,920 --> 01:49:27,640
Speaker 3: But we get this ending voiceover monologue from Thomas. I

2048
01:49:27,680 --> 01:49:30,320
Speaker 3: wrote this down, he says in the end, I think

2049
01:49:30,360 --> 01:49:33,280
Speaker 3: it must be about faith. And if faith is a choice,

2050
01:49:33,400 --> 01:49:36,360
Speaker 3: then it can be lost for a man, an angel,

2051
01:49:36,560 --> 01:49:40,080
Speaker 3: or the devil himself. And if faith means never completely

2052
01:49:40,240 --> 01:49:44,200
Speaker 3: understanding God's plan, then maybe understanding just a part of it.

2053
01:49:44,600 --> 01:49:47,200
Speaker 3: Our part is what it is to have a soul.

2054
01:49:47,640 --> 01:49:51,120
Speaker 3: So there it's defined. I still don't understand, though, And

2055
01:49:51,120 --> 01:49:53,400
Speaker 3: then he says, and maybe in the end, that's what

2056
01:49:53,560 --> 01:49:58,559
Speaker 3: being human is. After all, the sentence says in the end,

2057
01:49:58,880 --> 01:50:00,200
Speaker 3: and after all.

2058
01:50:00,920 --> 01:50:04,599
Speaker 2: Oh, man real strong, he learned too late that man

2059
01:50:04,680 --> 01:50:05,639
Speaker 2: is a feeling creature.

2060
01:50:05,760 --> 01:50:11,800
Speaker 3: Vibes exactly what I thought. Yeah, but yeah, then we

2061
01:50:11,840 --> 01:50:14,200
Speaker 3: get to go to the closing credits and hear skid Row.

2062
01:50:14,280 --> 01:50:17,760
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, this is another where I just I

2063
01:50:17,760 --> 01:50:20,479
Speaker 2: don't know, I mean, no offensive folks who love skid Row,

2064
01:50:20,520 --> 01:50:23,360
Speaker 2: and maybe skid Row is it's perfectly fun outside of

2065
01:50:23,400 --> 01:50:28,679
Speaker 2: this specific context. But the closing credits are breaking down

2066
01:50:28,760 --> 01:50:31,720
Speaker 2: by skid Row, and in my opinion, just absolutely sucks it.

2067
01:50:31,840 --> 01:50:34,840
Speaker 2: Just it just at least here it just feels like, oh,

2068
01:50:34,880 --> 01:50:37,320
Speaker 2: come on, of all the this is the mid nineties,

2069
01:50:37,360 --> 01:50:39,760
Speaker 2: this is this is what you I don't know, you

2070
01:50:39,800 --> 01:50:43,479
Speaker 2: know clearly the treasure Chest wasn't completely open to license

2071
01:50:43,560 --> 01:50:47,080
Speaker 2: any song they wanted, but truly there was a better choice.

2072
01:50:47,120 --> 01:50:51,040
Speaker 2: Just have some you know, creepy Gregorian chant and we'll

2073
01:50:51,040 --> 01:50:53,640
Speaker 2: call it a day. Yeah, this is what we went with.

2074
01:50:53,920 --> 01:50:57,720
Speaker 3: What would have been the appropriate and I think what

2075
01:50:57,760 --> 01:51:01,800
Speaker 3: I would have expected is like a a two song

2076
01:51:02,080 --> 01:51:04,720
Speaker 3: ending credits where you have half of it's a rock

2077
01:51:04,840 --> 01:51:08,439
Speaker 3: song and then half of it is atmospheric Gregory and

2078
01:51:08,520 --> 01:51:10,960
Speaker 3: chant music. I don't know in what order that would be,

2079
01:51:12,000 --> 01:51:13,920
Speaker 3: but one of them should be like a song by

2080
01:51:14,000 --> 01:51:17,719
Speaker 3: Alison Chains, and then the other one is the Gregory

2081
01:51:17,760 --> 01:51:18,240
Speaker 3: and chance.

2082
01:51:18,400 --> 01:51:21,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, Alison Chains would have been a good pick here. Obviously,

2083
01:51:21,479 --> 01:51:24,160
Speaker 2: Harris the off of the Downward Spiral that would have

2084
01:51:24,240 --> 01:51:27,640
Speaker 2: just come out in ninety four, so you know, if

2085
01:51:27,760 --> 01:51:30,439
Speaker 2: everything was possible, that would have been a really strong conclusion,

2086
01:51:30,439 --> 01:51:33,240
Speaker 2: almost too strong, like that would maybe be a be

2087
01:51:33,560 --> 01:51:34,920
Speaker 2: hitting it too hard, but it would have been. It

2088
01:51:34,920 --> 01:51:37,640
Speaker 2: would have been memorable, but also probably not striking the

2089
01:51:37,640 --> 01:51:39,160
Speaker 2: tone they're clearly going for here.

2090
01:51:39,880 --> 01:51:43,720
Speaker 3: So I haven't seen the Prophecy sequels, but if I

2091
01:51:43,760 --> 01:51:47,160
Speaker 3: saw this movie and they were like, do you want

2092
01:51:47,160 --> 01:51:49,200
Speaker 3: to watch a sequel to the Prophecy, I would be

2093
01:51:49,360 --> 01:51:54,000
Speaker 3: like well, Christopher Walkins dead, so not really like I'm

2094
01:51:54,040 --> 01:51:57,800
Speaker 3: only interested if he's coming back, but apparently he's maybe

2095
01:51:57,840 --> 01:51:59,360
Speaker 3: not as dead as it's made the seam.

2096
01:52:00,320 --> 01:52:02,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, he will be back in the Prophecy too, and

2097
01:52:02,920 --> 01:52:05,719
Speaker 2: he's bringing Britney Murphy with him as his new thraw.

2098
01:52:06,280 --> 01:52:08,920
Speaker 2: I believe he comes back from Hell, so I'm gonna

2099
01:52:08,920 --> 01:52:10,799
Speaker 2: have to revisit that one as well in the future.

2100
01:52:10,880 --> 01:52:14,400
Speaker 2: Not for next week, don't worry, but at some point

2101
01:52:14,479 --> 01:52:17,400
Speaker 2: in the future we may come back to the Prophecy universe.

2102
01:52:17,479 --> 01:52:21,960
Speaker 3: Oh i'd be down. Yeah, I just want to reiterate

2103
01:52:22,000 --> 01:52:24,840
Speaker 3: again that I don't know, I can I can see

2104
01:52:24,840 --> 01:52:27,559
Speaker 3: why this movie got mixed reviews, and I can see

2105
01:52:27,560 --> 01:52:31,759
Speaker 3: people going both ways on it. But however you feel

2106
01:52:31,800 --> 01:52:34,599
Speaker 3: about the rest, I think that the Christopher Walken parts

2107
01:52:34,600 --> 01:52:36,080
Speaker 3: of it are just a joy.

2108
01:52:36,439 --> 01:52:39,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, Walkin Walkn is terrific here. This is clearly he's

2109
01:52:40,040 --> 01:52:42,240
Speaker 2: he's having a great time. He's really getting in there,

2110
01:52:42,400 --> 01:52:47,040
Speaker 2: making all sorts of weird choices, but entertaining choices to

2111
01:52:47,120 --> 01:52:51,439
Speaker 2: be sure, totally. So Yeah, love Christopher Walkins Gabriel and

2112
01:52:51,760 --> 01:52:54,960
Speaker 2: that alone is worth revisiting. If memory serves, there's a

2113
01:52:54,960 --> 01:52:58,240
Speaker 2: great segment in the third one where he's driving a

2114
01:52:58,280 --> 01:53:00,000
Speaker 2: convertible whilst playing the trump.

2115
01:53:00,560 --> 01:53:02,960
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, i'd watch that.

2116
01:53:03,400 --> 01:53:07,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, glad I have these discs now, yeah, yeah, yeah.

2117
01:53:07,360 --> 01:53:10,920
Speaker 2: It's a handsome three disc set or three movies set.

2118
01:53:10,960 --> 01:53:12,599
Speaker 2: I can't remember how many disks. Maybe it's just two

2119
01:53:12,680 --> 01:53:15,120
Speaker 2: discs and the first movies on one disc in the

2120
01:53:15,280 --> 01:53:18,519
Speaker 2: two and three are on the next disc. Not that

2121
01:53:18,640 --> 01:53:20,360
Speaker 2: you need to know all that, but there you go.

2122
01:53:21,640 --> 01:53:25,200
Speaker 2: All right, we're gonna go ahead and close the book

2123
01:53:25,240 --> 01:53:29,800
Speaker 2: on this one, the ancient biblical manuscript of this episode,

2124
01:53:30,240 --> 01:53:33,000
Speaker 2: but we'll be back next week with more, just a

2125
01:53:33,000 --> 01:53:35,960
Speaker 2: reminder once more, like we're discussing at the beginning. Stuff

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Speaker 2: to Blow Your Mind is primarily a science and culture podcast,

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Speaker 2: with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays. But by the

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Speaker 2: end of the week, you know, we're worn out. It's

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Speaker 2: time to turn the page and just focus on a

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Speaker 2: weird film. That's what we do here on Weird House

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Speaker 2: Cinema right in. If you have suggestions for films you'd

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Speaker 2: like to see us cover in the future. If you

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Speaker 2: want to look at past episodes, find them wherever you

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01:53:56,960 --> 01:53:59,439
Speaker 2: get your podcasts. Just look for Stuff to Blow your

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Speaker 2: mind and you will find us go back through the

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Speaker 2: through the archives. Also, if you are on letterbox dot com,

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Speaker 2: look us up. Our username is weird House, and we

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Speaker 2: have a nice list of all the movies we've covered

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Speaker 2: over the years, and sometimes a peek ahead at what's

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Speaker 2: coming up next.

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Speaker 3: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway.

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Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us

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Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

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01:54:22,520 --> 01:54:24,880
Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hello,

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Speaker 3: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow

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Speaker 3: your Mind dot com.

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Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

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Speaker 1: more podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

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Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.