1 00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:05,520 Speaker 1: Welcome to Katie's Crib, a production of Shonda land Audio 2 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:08,479 Speaker 1: in partnership with I Heart Radio. A lot of people 3 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:12,319 Speaker 1: that we are who are our ancestors. It turns out 4 00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:16,960 Speaker 1: if you go seven generations back, we don't actually share 5 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 1: significant DNA. Yeah, it's gonna be fine. Love is what 6 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: makes our family. Love is what makes these relationships. Hello everybody, 7 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:37,200 Speaker 1: and welcome back to Katie's Crib. It is Pride Month. 8 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:40,600 Speaker 1: Woo woot, Happy Pride to everybody, and in honor of 9 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:44,600 Speaker 1: Pride Month, I am so psyched to share this episode 10 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 1: with you. I learned so much in this episode. We 11 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:51,920 Speaker 1: are digging deep into the fertility industry with the one 12 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:56,320 Speaker 1: and only Jennifer Bernie. She goes by Jen with two ends. 13 00:00:56,360 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 1: She is an essays. She's an author of the book 14 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 1: The Other Mothers, which is a memoir that explores queer 15 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 1: family building and the patriarchal roots of the fertility industry, 16 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:09,640 Speaker 1: which I knew very little about. We touched on it 17 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 1: a good amount but not enough in the Rebecca Henderson 18 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 1: Leslie Headland episode, and Jen really helps me understand a 19 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 1: lot more. Her essays have appeared in the New York Times, 20 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 1: The Washington Post, long Reads, Romper, many other publications, and 21 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:28,480 Speaker 1: in this episode we are talking a ton about patriarchal ideals, 22 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 1: male infertility, finding a donor that turned into an extended family. 23 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 1: Jen has made a home in Olympia. I really want 24 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 1: to go there, where she lives with her partner Kelly, 25 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:42,200 Speaker 1: her two sons, her dogs, her chickens, and a cow 26 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 1: named Molasses. Welcome to Katie's cribt gen and happy pride, everybody. 27 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 1: So you mentioned in your book in the beginning about um, 28 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 1: you know, the younger Jen, the younger version of you 29 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 1: discovering herself and her identity, and personally, I believe that 30 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 1: the younger Jen with two would be very happy to 31 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 1: know that the grown up Gen is kicking ass and 32 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 1: taking names. Thank you, Katie. Um this is great, Okay, 33 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:10,959 Speaker 1: I mean, there's so much to cover, I don't even 34 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 1: know where to start, but maybe let's start personally. Did 35 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:17,919 Speaker 1: you know you always wanted to be a mom? I did. 36 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 1: I begged my parents to have a kid. I didn't 37 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 1: get my little brother until I was seven years old, 38 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 1: which in some ways was great because by then I 39 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:32,640 Speaker 1: just desperately wanted a sibling, and I was really maternal 40 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: with my younger brother when he was born, and I 41 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 1: think you know connected that to always imagining having kids 42 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 1: of my own. And so your partner, Kelly Um, when 43 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 1: you guys got together, was it always obvious that parenthood 44 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:52,960 Speaker 1: was in the cards? How did these conversations? What did 45 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 1: they sound like? I think the funny thing was I 46 00:02:56,919 --> 00:03:00,960 Speaker 1: was so clear that I wanted kids, and we both 47 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 1: felt really clear about wanting to be together, and so 48 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:08,200 Speaker 1: I think I treated it as a settled issue. I 49 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 1: had been so transparent about wanting kids, and we end 50 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:15,960 Speaker 1: up committing to each other. This was before gay marriage 51 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 1: was legally recognized, but we still made that kind of 52 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 1: commitment and then started having those conversations, and I think 53 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 1: for me, that's when I realized that as a lesbian 54 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 1: things we're going to be more complicated than I had imagined. 55 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 1: I really really felt like if we could just let 56 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 1: things happen naturally biologically, that it wouldn't have been such 57 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:44,119 Speaker 1: an ongoing conversation like we we would have just let 58 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 1: that progress, but because we had to be really deliberate 59 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 1: about it, it was a pretty exhaustive process. There are 60 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 1: so many patriarchal ideals when we're bringing a child into 61 00:03:56,800 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 1: the world. Your book really touches on this stuff about 62 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 1: what makes a real parent to a genius sperm. And 63 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 1: then we were talking about the flower pot theory. There's 64 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 1: a lot, there's a lot of excellent care. Can you 65 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 1: take me through what is a real parent? For example? Yeah, well, 66 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:20,839 Speaker 1: I this the original idea behind reproduction, before people really 67 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 1: knew how things worked scientifically. The idea was that this 68 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:30,840 Speaker 1: is insane to me, keep going that the sperm was 69 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 1: the essentially the child, and the woman was like the 70 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 1: flower pot, so she just nurtured what the man had 71 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 1: implanted in her. Of course this is what of course, 72 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 1: this is what was thought. Of course, the sperm is 73 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 1: the person, it's everything, and the women are just like 74 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 1: you know, the flower pot, where the vessel and the caretaker. 75 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 1: And even thinking through like our conception of the roles 76 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 1: of mother and father. To me, it's it's really telling. 77 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:06,920 Speaker 1: The father's job is done once because he's he's not 78 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:10,479 Speaker 1: the caretaker. His job was to implant the sperm inside 79 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:13,360 Speaker 1: the woman. And the woman's job is for life, you know, 80 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:17,719 Speaker 1: beginning with the sperm being introduced into her body. For life, 81 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:22,279 Speaker 1: she send the caretaker of that being. So fatherhood's pretty simple. 82 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:26,680 Speaker 1: Everything else is bonus after that in that original conception 83 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 1: of parenthood. Right now, you and Kelly are walking into 84 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 1: sperm banks. Let's say, you know, and you are walking 85 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:38,600 Speaker 1: into this system. Can you tell me how it was 86 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:41,479 Speaker 1: for you to find a sperm donor what was the 87 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 1: what was the experience? Like? Yeah, well, let's see. So 88 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 1: I'll talk about sperm donation from a couple of angles, 89 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 1: because we wound up trying different things. Um, but we 90 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 1: originally were trying to get pregnant through donor sperm through 91 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:01,280 Speaker 1: a sperm bank, and I went in to that process 92 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:05,279 Speaker 1: pretty naive, I think. I mean, I really you know, 93 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 1: I've researched the fertility industry in writing this book, but 94 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 1: as I was navigating this stuff as a lesbian, I 95 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 1: thought it would be fine, and I thought, to some 96 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:18,280 Speaker 1: extent it had been designed for me. I feel similarly 97 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 1: to you, like I just feel like, no, No, I'm 98 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 1: a person who wants sperm, and obviously I need sperm 99 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:26,840 Speaker 1: because I'm a lesbian, you know, and I want to 100 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:28,600 Speaker 1: have maybe. So yeah, they're just gonna give it to me. 101 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:33,440 Speaker 1: It's gonna be fine. Grecad scratch. Yeah, I had no idea. 102 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 1: There was a whole history of lesbians being denied care 103 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 1: like this system. It was specifically not designed for us 104 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:46,799 Speaker 1: to navigate. And of course, you know it's it's caught 105 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 1: up to a degree, right, It's it's open to me 106 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:54,240 Speaker 1: now I'm not being deliberately excluded from this system. The 107 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:57,000 Speaker 1: other thing is that I went in as a consumer. 108 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:00,279 Speaker 1: So I went in I need sperm. This is like 109 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 1: the easiest way to find sperm. And I wasn't necessarily 110 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:09,040 Speaker 1: motivated to think through, um, some of the ethical considerations 111 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:12,040 Speaker 1: about it, or to research the industry and the way 112 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 1: they were self regulating or failing to self regulate. So 113 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 1: it's a pretty interesting process I knew right from the start. 114 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 1: I just had a bad feeling about some of the 115 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 1: larger corporate sperm banks. UM. It turns out there's only 116 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 1: one not for profits from bank in the US. That's 117 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 1: just for Bank of California UM, and they tend to 118 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 1: be a better about just self regulating and holding themselves 119 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 1: to different certain standards like limiting the number of families 120 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:53,960 Speaker 1: who can conceive via one man's stew how I mean, 121 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:56,679 Speaker 1: So it is a business. This is business for profit 122 00:07:56,760 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 1: that we are talking about. Here. So when you first went, 123 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 1: did you go by yourself? Did you go with Kelly? 124 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 1: What was the experience like did you I know that 125 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:08,560 Speaker 1: you walked in naive, ready to go, and what was 126 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 1: your first time realizing Oh, this isn't that's not how 127 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 1: this is going to go. My first time the scene 128 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 1: is that Kelly, Kelly always wanted to use a known 129 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 1: donor from our community. I love this. We have to 130 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 1: talk about this later. I love you want known donor 131 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 1: and I was just like, that's so complicated, but fine, 132 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:32,559 Speaker 1: let's let's try. I'll humor you. And that was really 133 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 1: the attitude I was going into it with, was I 134 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 1: will humor you. And so that didn't go so well 135 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 1: our first time around. We had, you know, we had 136 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:44,679 Speaker 1: a few people that we thought might be up for it, 137 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:48,720 Speaker 1: but those conversations are really understandably hard to you know, 138 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 1: ask someone in your community to consider helping you out 139 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:55,839 Speaker 1: in that way. So we didn't come to a decision 140 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 1: per se that we were going to shift courses that 141 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 1: I started or getting catalogs from sperm banks, and then 142 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 1: I was surprised to see my own hesitation once those 143 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:13,320 Speaker 1: catalogs arrived for me. The first moment was the photos 144 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 1: that they had in the catalog confused me because I 145 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:19,839 Speaker 1: didn't know there were pictures of these young men with 146 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 1: backpacks on, and I was like, are these the grown 147 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:27,719 Speaker 1: up kids and call SA to me, No, those are 148 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:31,680 Speaker 1: representing the donors, and I was kind of like, I 149 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 1: don't want to do that. I'm not thinking about a 150 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 1: donor as being like, you know, I don't know what 151 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 1: the how young a donor could possibly be. Maybe they 152 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 1: have to be twenty one, but they looked like eighteen 153 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:49,679 Speaker 1: year old pictures and I was thinking, I'm not comfortable 154 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 1: with that. So I did wind up finding a sperm 155 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 1: bank and visiting it. I was on a trip in 156 00:09:56,800 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 1: San Francisco with my mother, and at that time, the 157 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 1: sperm bank doesn't exist in this forum anymore, but it 158 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 1: was a lesbian owned sperm bank, and they told me 159 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 1: they recruited their donors from Craigslist, which would maybe make 160 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:12,720 Speaker 1: a lot of people nervous, but it really put me 161 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:18,199 Speaker 1: at ease, feeling like it wasn't just college students who 162 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:22,599 Speaker 1: were desperate for money. I don't know, I made you 163 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 1: had a better It made you feel a little bit 164 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 1: more like, oh, maybe this person is older and right, 165 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 1: you know, their catalog was interesting to me. There are electricians, 166 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 1: there were engineers, though I felt like people who were 167 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 1: more established and maybe had had a little more time 168 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:47,800 Speaker 1: to to think through the idea of what would mean 169 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 1: to be a donor. So I know, this isn't what 170 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:54,679 Speaker 1: you ended up doing. But the donor I've heard from 171 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:58,199 Speaker 1: friends of mine like what the donor application looks like, 172 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:04,439 Speaker 1: like you can literally choose race, age, education, you know 173 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 1: who their celebrity look alike would be. Right, Yes, we're 174 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 1: talking about this before we started recording Guys. But the 175 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 1: other episode we did with two of my best friends, 176 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 1: Rebecca Henderson and Leslie Headlin. I think I think Leslie 177 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 1: and Rebecca gave uson this, but like one time they 178 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 1: were like, this, you could choose a guy that looks 179 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 1: he said, he's sort of like adjacent Sadakis type, you 180 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 1: know what I mean. And it's like, holy crap, it's 181 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 1: really wild and bizarre. How do you know that that 182 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 1: that a donor sperm would even be telling the truth? 183 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 1: You know? I I think the issue is that you don't. 184 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:43,320 Speaker 1: And it was a point of contention between Kelly and 185 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 1: me initially when we were deciding whether or not to 186 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 1: use a sperm bank. You know, she really had this 187 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:52,320 Speaker 1: view of they can put anything on that opporsition you 188 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 1: don't know, and I was sort of like, no, I'm 189 00:11:54,960 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 1: sure it's fine. They're vetted. And I think the reality 190 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 1: is that in most cases, you know, there is some 191 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:06,280 Speaker 1: level of vetting that happens, and people tend to be 192 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 1: who they say they are, and there's this accountability piece 193 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:12,679 Speaker 1: of people. You know, to be a donor, you actually 194 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:14,600 Speaker 1: have to be in it for the pretty long haul. 195 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:18,320 Speaker 1: You're showing up very regularly at the clinic. People get 196 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 1: you know the people at the clinic and get to 197 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 1: know the donors to some extent. But there definitely have 198 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:28,360 Speaker 1: been some high profile cases of donors who have been 199 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 1: deceptive UM and that's come to light in different ways, 200 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:37,080 Speaker 1: or or sperm banks who have been reckless UM. And 201 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:40,080 Speaker 1: another piece of it is that I think, especially right 202 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 1: now during pandemic, I think there's been an issue UM, 203 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:47,080 Speaker 1: but it's it's a broader problem. It's just intensified in pandemic. 204 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 1: It's hard to recruit and retain donors, so there's a 205 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:54,560 Speaker 1: really high demand for for sperm and that can create 206 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:58,440 Speaker 1: some issues. What a whole interesting thing. And I know 207 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:00,280 Speaker 1: I was talking about like what you look like, but 208 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:02,560 Speaker 1: I'm sure there's also just so much in terms of 209 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 1: what runs in your family, you know, like is there 210 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 1: high blood pressure? Is their cancer, is their diabetes is 211 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 1: they're all of these things have to be filled out 212 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:17,959 Speaker 1: and I'm sure there's a ton of paperworth a ton. Yeah, 213 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:19,880 Speaker 1: And you know what's interesting to me and I think 214 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:24,080 Speaker 1: about this in connection to sperm donation. Um, you know, 215 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:28,440 Speaker 1: it's been twelve years since we conceived our our first kid, 216 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 1: and because we know our donor, we kind of know 217 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:36,120 Speaker 1: how his health is. And you know, there are things 218 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:40,079 Speaker 1: you wind up knowing about somebody when they're in their forties, 219 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 1: about their health and their history, that you wouldn't have 220 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:50,080 Speaker 1: known about in their twenties or thirties. Absolutely, absolutely that 221 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 1: brings me back to those pictures of those eighteen year 222 00:13:52,400 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 1: old with backpacks wild. Can you talk to us about 223 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:12,120 Speaker 1: the geneticist Graham Coop's research on genetics is not genealogy? Yeah, 224 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:14,920 Speaker 1: this was one thing that was really surprising to me. 225 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:21,120 Speaker 1: For years, I've been thinking through what Kelly's relationship as 226 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:25,080 Speaker 1: the non genetic parent of my kids. I think about 227 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 1: this a lot too. My friends Rebecca and Leslie, they're 228 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 1: in process of figuring out how they're going to get 229 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:33,320 Speaker 1: pregnant and who is going to carry in which egg 230 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:35,240 Speaker 1: is going to be used, and I always think about, oh, 231 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 1: what does the person feel like who it's not their 232 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:41,240 Speaker 1: egg or not their body and things like that. Yeah, 233 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's another way that I feel like 234 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:46,160 Speaker 1: I went into the process a little naive because I 235 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 1: just wanted to think, it's fine, that's gonna be something 236 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:54,680 Speaker 1: we think through, something that maybe we talked about and consider, 237 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 1: but in the end it's, yeah, it's gonna be fine. 238 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 1: Is what makes our family. Love is what makes these relationships. 239 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 1: And I guess I would say, you know, now, I've 240 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 1: been a parent for twelve years, and the thing is 241 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 1: that our culture puts so much value on these genetic 242 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 1: connections and that they're also interesting. It's interesting to like, 243 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 1: you know, now, genetic testing is a thing, and I 244 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:26,760 Speaker 1: think we have this cultural interest in like meeting people 245 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:29,560 Speaker 1: we didn't grow up but who are genetically connected to. 246 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 1: So it's not that's a real connection to that I 247 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 1: don't want to dismiss. And it was Dr Coope put 248 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 1: forward that a lot of people that we are, who 249 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 1: are our ancestors, it turns out if you go seven 250 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:54,120 Speaker 1: generations back, we don't actually share significant DNA with them. 251 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 1: So for me that was like a really interesting it's 252 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 1: so fascinating. Yeah, if you think through that, like those 253 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 1: people are still your ancestors, they're they're part of your legacy, 254 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 1: they're part of who you are, and yet they're not 255 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 1: your they're not actually your genetic relatives, which to me 256 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 1: was sort of a puzzle piece and thinking through these 257 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 1: relationships and how did Kelly, How did you and Kelly 258 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 1: talk about this stuff? In a lot of ways, we 259 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 1: didn't talk about it, and I'm I'm guessing that's pretty common. 260 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 1: I think we talked about it the most going into it, 261 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 1: just in terms of sorting through the options. And really 262 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 1: it was our our dream going into it was to 263 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 1: find a way to have a child that would be 264 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 1: genetic genetic genetically to both of us. But that didn't 265 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 1: turn out to be easy or possible. And so I 266 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:01,920 Speaker 1: think a lot of it is is unspoken. It's just 267 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 1: this presence we both know, I think in some degrees 268 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:08,959 Speaker 1: maybe more than our children are really aware of it. 269 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:13,119 Speaker 1: I been I would be Yeah, I would definitely feel 270 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 1: that because what they know is what they know. UM. 271 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 1: In your book a lot you talk about the experiences 272 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:22,639 Speaker 1: how um, how people acted all different types of ways 273 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 1: around you, guys, like they didn't tat you seriously, or 274 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:29,640 Speaker 1: they acted surprised or weird. I would love to hear 275 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:32,879 Speaker 1: about some of those experiences. Do you mean when we 276 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 1: were trying to conceive exactly? Well? I feel like the 277 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 1: first moment I knew we were in trouble was when 278 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:47,680 Speaker 1: we showed up at the fertility clinic in our very progressive, 279 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 1: small city. UM. And I went into this fertility clinic. Again, 280 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:56,879 Speaker 1: there's my naive take again, like they're they're gonna be fine, 281 00:17:56,920 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 1: They're gonna have worked with so many queer couples and 282 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:03,920 Speaker 1: maybe there will be a little weirdness here and there, 283 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:06,880 Speaker 1: but overall it will be fine. And then the first 284 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 1: thing that was said to us was the first doctor 285 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 1: we met with looked at us and said, is this 286 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:17,200 Speaker 1: your mother about Kelly? And just to be clear, Kelly 287 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 1: is not old enough to be my mother. And that 288 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:28,120 Speaker 1: just did not get things off foot. The same day 289 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:31,919 Speaker 1: with our meeting with a second doctor, and this is common, 290 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:35,639 Speaker 1: this would happen almost anywhere, like this is just the 291 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 1: way things work. But we were diagnosed with a male 292 00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 1: factor in fertility. It suggests that we have a man 293 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:49,440 Speaker 1: in the picture who does not produce adequate sperm. So 294 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:51,919 Speaker 1: either he does not produce sperm, or he does not 295 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 1: produce enough sperm to get me pregnant, which is substantially 296 00:18:56,880 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 1: different from from the reality, which is simply that there's 297 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:05,200 Speaker 1: just not a man there or or you know, anyone 298 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 1: in a body who produces. For um, that's the label 299 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:11,880 Speaker 1: that gets slapt on for instance, single women who who 300 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:17,400 Speaker 1: are trying to conceive with donors star can you yeah, 301 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 1: my jaw dropped on the ground. I mean, that is insane. 302 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 1: I think it says a lot about the model that 303 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:29,600 Speaker 1: the industry is working with, which is sort of putting 304 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:35,200 Speaker 1: a diagnosis on something that's not an illness, and illness right, 305 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:38,400 Speaker 1: it's not right, right, It was we needed sperm, that's 306 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:43,640 Speaker 1: the diagnosis. Talk to me about your fertilization process. Well, 307 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 1: we just um, we did finally choose a donor from 308 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:53,200 Speaker 1: from a catalog, and we went with someone who would 309 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:56,360 Speaker 1: be willing to be known, like have their identity revealed 310 00:19:56,480 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 1: once the child turned eighteen. But we had a terrible 311 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:04,680 Speaker 1: time conceiving, and it didn't it didn't help things. Set 312 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:09,240 Speaker 1: this clinic that we were using, UM, they just they 313 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:14,399 Speaker 1: were interested in, I guess, doing the inseminations, but they 314 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:18,120 Speaker 1: weren't curious about why I was having trouble even when 315 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:21,840 Speaker 1: I asked. No one ever suggested running a test on me. 316 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:24,479 Speaker 1: And some of that, again goes back to this model 317 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:27,960 Speaker 1: because I wasn't a straight person who had already been 318 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:31,400 Speaker 1: trying to conceive for twelve months. I know they love 319 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 1: their numbers. They love their numbers and their facts, just 320 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:36,679 Speaker 1: like just well, you just try for twelve months with 321 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:40,280 Speaker 1: your male partner and if that doesn't work, then we 322 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:42,720 Speaker 1: go through X, Y and Z. But if there's anything 323 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:45,159 Speaker 1: that that doesn't fit into that, they don't know what 324 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 1: to do, right or they don't exactly Yeah. Yeah, So 325 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:53,120 Speaker 1: what I wound up doing is just sort of quitting 326 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:56,240 Speaker 1: in desperation after over a year of trying to get 327 00:20:56,240 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 1: pregnant that way. I met with multiple doctors. None of 328 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 1: them really seemed super interested or eager to help me 329 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:08,879 Speaker 1: because they couldn't check that box of has been trying 330 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:12,960 Speaker 1: to conceive for twelve months, um, and I want to 331 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:16,960 Speaker 1: I had a miscarriage is part of what happened. It 332 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:19,520 Speaker 1: was a really early miscarriage, so I hadn't even known 333 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:22,399 Speaker 1: that I was pregnant. Um, but I just sort of 334 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 1: had this moment of I still desperately want to have 335 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:28,680 Speaker 1: a kid, and I don't want to do this anymore. 336 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:31,639 Speaker 1: I just don't. I don't want to visit these people. 337 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:35,200 Speaker 1: I don't. I don't like them, Like, there's just got 338 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:39,280 Speaker 1: to be a different way to do this. And it 339 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 1: was the first time I'm sure a lot of your 340 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 1: listeners will relate to like just how brutal it is 341 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:49,640 Speaker 1: to be caught in that cycle of trying to conceive 342 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:54,960 Speaker 1: and waiting. It's just so all consuming. And so the 343 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 1: whole thing had been emotional for me, it had been fraught. 344 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:02,359 Speaker 1: I was okay for once with just not knowing. It 345 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:05,320 Speaker 1: just felt like the right decision in that moment, and 346 00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 1: I was calmed down for the first time in two years. 347 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 1: I would say, you just let go, you surrendered you 348 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 1: or yeah I cannot, this is like pushing a boulder uphill, 349 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:19,680 Speaker 1: yeah exactly, and it just was like, this is true. 350 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:24,120 Speaker 1: I'm just this isn't working. Um. And so we took 351 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 1: a break and I was again for the first time, 352 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:29,440 Speaker 1: I was okay with being on a break from it. 353 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 1: And that's when our donor and his partner entered our 354 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:39,640 Speaker 1: life in this really surprising way take us through that. 355 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:43,479 Speaker 1: So that was kind of what the decision wound up 356 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:49,959 Speaker 1: being was maybe this time, somehow we will find a 357 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:55,440 Speaker 1: community donor and maybe by some miracle, I'll get pregnant. 358 00:22:56,359 --> 00:23:01,280 Speaker 1: Who knows. And we weren't really aggressively looking. I had 359 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:04,960 Speaker 1: a close friend who said, you know, I would be 360 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:09,159 Speaker 1: willing to talk to my husband about this, and we 361 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,920 Speaker 1: were like okay, But for whatever reason, we didn't feel desperate. 362 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:15,119 Speaker 1: We were just like okay, well at that summer for 363 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 1: a minute. And then we had this close friend of 364 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:22,320 Speaker 1: ours who when they said what about Daniel, and we 365 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:24,800 Speaker 1: both just lit up. So this was a person who 366 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:29,120 Speaker 1: we had met a couple of times. Kelly really liked him, 367 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 1: even though we didn't know him very well, and they 368 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:36,000 Speaker 1: had a lot in comments. They had the same vibe 369 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:38,959 Speaker 1: to them, and that was always something we wanted. I 370 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 1: am so cerebral and was not, and that's part of 371 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:47,879 Speaker 1: why we work really well together. She's she's more of 372 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:51,280 Speaker 1: a doer. So we were always wanting to capture that 373 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:54,760 Speaker 1: somehow in our donor. That's just as a funny thing. 374 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:58,320 Speaker 1: So many people are obsessed with having a donor with 375 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:02,280 Speaker 1: with a big college education ship. And they were like, 376 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:07,080 Speaker 1: the marketing really missed us because I was like, I 377 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:11,400 Speaker 1: want an electrician. Yeah, so this idea that we would 378 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:15,000 Speaker 1: ask Daniel. Both of us were just immediately on board. 379 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:17,439 Speaker 1: And it was the kind of thing where probably we 380 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:20,960 Speaker 1: had never thought of him just because he wasn't close 381 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 1: enough in our circle to either even can you know, 382 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:28,520 Speaker 1: come up as an option. But our friend said, why 383 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 1: don't I call I'll call him, and she called him 384 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:37,480 Speaker 1: that night and called us the next day. And and 385 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:41,240 Speaker 1: the other piece was his partner. You know that that's 386 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 1: obviously a piece and there if somebody can be interested, 387 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:48,560 Speaker 1: but if their partners not into it, it's already stopped. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, 388 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 1: So she said they want to come over for dinner 389 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 1: and talk to you about it. It just was pretty 390 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:59,160 Speaker 1: smooth from there, and I, you know, I kept being 391 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:02,119 Speaker 1: hesitant something would fall through. Yeah, you're like, one's the 392 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 1: other shoe going to drop. Of course, of course, my 393 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:08,640 Speaker 1: approach was like they left the dinner already saying yeah, 394 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:10,720 Speaker 1: we'll do it. We're happy to do it. And I said, 395 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:14,479 Speaker 1: you can tell me that in two weeks if you were, like, 396 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:16,760 Speaker 1: you have to sleep on it, like you have to 397 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:19,359 Speaker 1: sleep on it. Not only did they agree to do it, 398 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:22,359 Speaker 1: but when when the moment came, they did it. So 399 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 1: we were switching from this medical model to the d 400 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:33,160 Speaker 1: I Y model. I might clarify, does not involve turkey basters. 401 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:37,720 Speaker 1: It does not involve turkey basters. People. You heard it here, 402 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:40,960 Speaker 1: that's right, that's right, but but not too far off. 403 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:45,280 Speaker 1: We use a jar and a needle list syringe, and 404 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 1: just we'd do it the way one would think you 405 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:51,360 Speaker 1: would do it. Kelly would go across town to pick 406 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:55,440 Speaker 1: up the donation. She would keep it warm by putting 407 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 1: it under her shirt while she drove home. And my 408 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:02,919 Speaker 1: older brother once said to me, I can't believe that 409 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:06,240 Speaker 1: even works. It works, like, of course it works. Well, 410 00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:09,159 Speaker 1: I wouldn't know, ye, right, it was an instant. It 411 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:13,400 Speaker 1: took five months, but um, it was those five months 412 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:17,720 Speaker 1: for such a different five months for me than how 413 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:22,440 Speaker 1: it felt before to be going in to this clinic 414 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 1: that just wasn't super excited to be serving me, right, right, 415 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,160 Speaker 1: I almost feel like fate, if you believe in some 416 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:36,240 Speaker 1: sort of higher something or I don't even know. I 417 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:38,920 Speaker 1: mean it literally fell in your lap and my lap, 418 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 1: I mean into a jar, into a syringe, into but 419 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 1: but people that you knew, not in your close, close circle, 420 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:49,960 Speaker 1: but in your community. Let's talk about the history of 421 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:53,080 Speaker 1: lesbian d I y conception. How does that come about? 422 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:57,840 Speaker 1: Tell me? Okay, well, I asked Kelly and I were 423 00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:03,200 Speaker 1: trying to conceive. Ally would tell me our friends who's 424 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:06,720 Speaker 1: a little older than us had had a child as 425 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:10,680 Speaker 1: a single lesbian mom generation before us, and Kelly was 426 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 1: always saying, you know, when she did it. There was 427 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:19,120 Speaker 1: this underground network and this sounded like the awesomest, sexiest 428 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 1: thing to me. I was sort of like, I wish 429 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,159 Speaker 1: we could do it this way. And I think this 430 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:28,439 Speaker 1: was pretty widespread, although the people I interviewed for the 431 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:31,840 Speaker 1: book were mainly Seattle and Olympia based, So that's the 432 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 1: network that I got to learn about. And it's just 433 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:39,119 Speaker 1: it was so simple and straightforward, but also I think brilliant. 434 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:43,400 Speaker 1: There was just this procedure where if you were a 435 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:47,680 Speaker 1: single person or a lesbian couple who wanted to conceive, 436 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:51,680 Speaker 1: you would find what they called a go between, which 437 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,160 Speaker 1: is sort of like our friends hitting up her friend 438 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:57,680 Speaker 1: to be our donor. But basically you're entrusting that person 439 00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:01,960 Speaker 1: to find a donor for you, and normally in the 440 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:06,520 Speaker 1: system that donor would remain anonymous. It was sort of both. 441 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 1: They were a community donor, but you also didn't know 442 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:13,720 Speaker 1: who they were, and they would gather some information. I 443 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,520 Speaker 1: guess there was paperwork, which is a little bit funny 444 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 1: to me because I heard lots of stories about paperwork 445 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:24,200 Speaker 1: getting lost. But the idea was that they would not 446 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:27,879 Speaker 1: be permanently anonymous, but a lot like you know what 447 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:30,960 Speaker 1: spur Mix have set up now, just a system where 448 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:33,439 Speaker 1: when your kid comes at age, they could decide to 449 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:37,639 Speaker 1: contact this person. So yeah, the go between would just 450 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:40,600 Speaker 1: go you know, would just ask people until they got 451 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:43,320 Speaker 1: a guess, and then the go between would also be 452 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:48,040 Speaker 1: the one to pick up the donation and deliberate to 453 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:54,640 Speaker 1: the person getting pregnant. So so so cool. I've I've 454 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:57,320 Speaker 1: heard of similar things like that in New York. I 455 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 1: know someone it was a man in woman, but they 456 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:03,680 Speaker 1: were having issues and it was in the time where 457 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:05,520 Speaker 1: they would take the sp you know that the dad 458 00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:08,479 Speaker 1: would lie and say it was their kid and you 459 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:13,120 Speaker 1: know things like that. Yeah, yeah, there's I mean, there's 460 00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:16,560 Speaker 1: so much interesting history there. You know, people using that 461 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,720 Speaker 1: system at the time, I mean, sperm banks existed, but 462 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 1: this is when lesbians were being actively excluded. To explain 463 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:29,800 Speaker 1: that too, they when did that change? I think it 464 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:36,040 Speaker 1: gradually changed, um in the nineties, when gradually lesbians were 465 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:39,480 Speaker 1: more woven into the system. And I think something one 466 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:43,480 Speaker 1: person I interviewed told me was that a lot of 467 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:48,720 Speaker 1: it was just this financial incentive. As um the fertility 468 00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:53,200 Speaker 1: industry evolved, they had better ways of treating actual male 469 00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 1: factor infertility, so the sperm banks themselves were getting less business. 470 00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:02,880 Speaker 1: There was suddenly, um yeah, just more of a motivator 471 00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:09,160 Speaker 1: to broaden the pool. Interesting. Interesting. I think about my 472 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 1: friends Rebecca and Leslie and it's they've had conversations with 473 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:14,960 Speaker 1: people that could be in their circle, things like that. 474 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:17,320 Speaker 1: But people who are in the l g B t 475 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:21,800 Speaker 1: Q plus world, like if they've exhausted all d I 476 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:27,680 Speaker 1: Y options and it's only the medical clinic situation. I mean, 477 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:30,719 Speaker 1: do you think because it was twelve years ago, hopefully 478 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:34,280 Speaker 1: it's better now. I don't know. I mean obviously depends, 479 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:37,840 Speaker 1: so much on where you live and right I think 480 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:39,520 Speaker 1: there are a couple of things there. I think I 481 00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:45,000 Speaker 1: always could have accessed care that was designed specifically for me, 482 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:48,080 Speaker 1: And the thing is that I didn't know I was 483 00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:52,480 Speaker 1: going to need that. My assumption was we're far enough 484 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:55,840 Speaker 1: along that people should be prepared for me, and it 485 00:30:56,000 --> 00:31:01,640 Speaker 1: really took it's a year and hindsight for me to 486 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 1: realize the extent to which that was not true. At 487 00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:08,719 Speaker 1: every turn it was proven to me that that was 488 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:15,800 Speaker 1: not the case. I interviewed a midwife who specializes in 489 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:19,840 Speaker 1: lgbt Q plus care for this book, and I asked 490 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:23,840 Speaker 1: them what they thought, and they said, it's not really different. Now. 491 00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:27,880 Speaker 1: People still get slapped with the male and fertility diagnosis. 492 00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:32,440 Speaker 1: The problems you're describing are still really widespread. So I 493 00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:37,200 Speaker 1: don't know that there's been much evolution in the mainstream industry, 494 00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:41,400 Speaker 1: but I do think that people have more options. If 495 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:44,520 Speaker 1: you were going to look for care specific to the 496 00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:50,600 Speaker 1: LGBTQ community, I think that that's evolved. You had said 497 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,280 Speaker 1: before that Kelly, it was important to Kelly that the 498 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 1: donor be known, and obviously that's what ended up happening 499 00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 1: to you. Guys. Why would people on a known donor 500 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:06,400 Speaker 1: versus a unknown donor. Yeah, I I fully understand why 501 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:09,720 Speaker 1: somebody would want an unknown donor, you know it just 502 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:13,960 Speaker 1: as a way of having that distance. I think I 503 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:17,200 Speaker 1: came into with this perspective of not necessarily wanting to 504 00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:20,920 Speaker 1: have to negotiate those relationships. I think a lot of 505 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:25,600 Speaker 1: people choose, you know, go the sperm bank route, um, 506 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:28,800 Speaker 1: not just because they couldn't find someone in their community, 507 00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:32,240 Speaker 1: but also to preserve the sanctity of their family, which 508 00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:36,560 Speaker 1: I understand. So I think for a lot of people 509 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:41,440 Speaker 1: that's a good decision. I think it was important to Kelly. 510 00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:45,200 Speaker 1: She's just so community oriented, which is one of the 511 00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:49,960 Speaker 1: reasons I'm drawn to her, and so I think it 512 00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:55,200 Speaker 1: just felt uncomfortable to her this idea of not knowing 513 00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:59,920 Speaker 1: where where this product, where this genetic material was coming from. 514 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:02,640 Speaker 1: I think she was nervous about the whole thing, and 515 00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:06,720 Speaker 1: so she wanted to feel connection and that I think 516 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:09,840 Speaker 1: it turned out a lot better for her than we 517 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:13,160 Speaker 1: wound up conceiving the way we did. Having a partner 518 00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:18,400 Speaker 1: legally become a parent is difficult. I mean, again, this 519 00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:22,040 Speaker 1: is something that we take so for granted. Tell us 520 00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:24,239 Speaker 1: the difficulties that you and Kelly had to go through 521 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:27,640 Speaker 1: in order to make Kelly the second parent. Yeah, most 522 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:32,640 Speaker 1: people are surprised about this that it's still even in 523 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 1: this day where gay marriage is federally recognized, it's still 524 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:43,360 Speaker 1: basically unanimously recommended by all advocacy groups that we go 525 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:48,080 Speaker 1: through the process of a second parent adoption. And it 526 00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:50,920 Speaker 1: wasn't challenging in the sense that anyone was going to 527 00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:53,760 Speaker 1: stand in our way of doing that. It was just 528 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:57,600 Speaker 1: challenging in you know, like any any time you have 529 00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:00,360 Speaker 1: to pay to see a lawyer. It was really time 530 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:03,800 Speaker 1: consuming and it wounded up being this expense that I 531 00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 1: hadn't really counted on in the planning. I think I 532 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:09,959 Speaker 1: had known, well, we'll have to jump through that hoop, 533 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:11,719 Speaker 1: and maybe I thought it would cost a couple of 534 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:16,040 Speaker 1: thousand dollars. It wound up costing closer to ten dollars. 535 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:20,120 Speaker 1: It felt like this extra thing. You know, there are 536 00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:25,080 Speaker 1: ways to cut that cost that I just didn't. That's 537 00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:28,360 Speaker 1: not my strength. Yeah, it's a lot of paperwork and 538 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:30,600 Speaker 1: a lot of legally as I'm sure, and I'm sure 539 00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:32,680 Speaker 1: you just like, can I just pay someone who this 540 00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:34,920 Speaker 1: is what they do to make sure that this is 541 00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:40,359 Speaker 1: all done once and done correctly and squared away. Yes, 542 00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:53,399 Speaker 1: I want to hear how you've kept the open door 543 00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:56,840 Speaker 1: between the donor family, which was an important thing we 544 00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:00,080 Speaker 1: were talking about with Kelly. How has that been in 545 00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:03,960 Speaker 1: your kids and your family's life. Yeah. Well, a few 546 00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:07,799 Speaker 1: things that happened that I think have worked out really 547 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:12,400 Speaker 1: nicely for us. One was so I think it was 548 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:15,880 Speaker 1: the day that we met for dinner and we were 549 00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:21,400 Speaker 1: talking about them becoming our donors, Daniel's partner Rebecca. I 550 00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:24,759 Speaker 1: think Kelly warns them, you know, just be careful, you 551 00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:29,200 Speaker 1: might get pregnant, Like there's something about the energy of 552 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:33,000 Speaker 1: doing this, you know, you guys could wind up being 553 00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:36,719 Speaker 1: pregnant to and Rebecca said, well, I sincerely hope it's 554 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:43,040 Speaker 1: you first. And what happened was it actually unfolded exactly 555 00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:47,520 Speaker 1: that way. They wound up becoming pregnant six months after 556 00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:51,279 Speaker 1: I was pregnant. So we're incredible it was, and it 557 00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:54,560 Speaker 1: was just so exciting. It was great for me to 558 00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:57,320 Speaker 1: just think about that we would now get to have 559 00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:01,960 Speaker 1: this sort of extended family. They wound up moving a 560 00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:05,200 Speaker 1: few hours away from us, which is actually added to 561 00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:09,040 Speaker 1: that extended family feeling the vibe right, It's not like 562 00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:13,399 Speaker 1: an everyday Sunday dinner situation, but it's there right right. 563 00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:16,440 Speaker 1: I mean that would probably be really fun too if 564 00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:18,960 Speaker 1: we all lived in the same town together, but it's 565 00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:21,840 Speaker 1: you know, it feels more. I think it feels like 566 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:26,160 Speaker 1: cousins for my kids. So what what what would up 567 00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:29,560 Speaker 1: happening to was that when they were having a second Uh, 568 00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:32,560 Speaker 1: we just decided we'd all go in on that together, 569 00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:35,040 Speaker 1: and we had our second child at the same time. 570 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:41,680 Speaker 1: It's so wonderful. It's so so wonderful, and um, how 571 00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:47,439 Speaker 1: did you tell your kids? One of those conversations look like, yeah, 572 00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:52,480 Speaker 1: I'm I'm not one hundred percent sure. With my first son, 573 00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:56,600 Speaker 1: I think I think I made a point of just 574 00:36:56,760 --> 00:36:59,600 Speaker 1: being clear with him. And you know, when you have 575 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:04,279 Speaker 1: to moms, yeah, it's pretty like your kid's never gonna 576 00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:08,800 Speaker 1: As they grew up in understand reproduction. There's there's no 577 00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:13,640 Speaker 1: danger of them thinking they weren't donor conceived. But I 578 00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:17,840 Speaker 1: I think I was careful to talk to him about it, 579 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:22,200 Speaker 1: although for whatever reason, I hadn't disclosed who the donor 580 00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:26,399 Speaker 1: was until his brother was born. His brother was less 581 00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:28,680 Speaker 1: than a year old, when it came up. And I 582 00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:31,480 Speaker 1: don't even know that he was asking me directly. I 583 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:34,480 Speaker 1: think I just decided it was time for him to 584 00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:39,120 Speaker 1: know who his donor was. And I had him guests 585 00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:44,239 Speaker 1: and he was he just wound up guessing all these 586 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:46,799 Speaker 1: people in our circle, no matter whether they were men 587 00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:49,400 Speaker 1: or women or not or what. I thought that was 588 00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:52,840 Speaker 1: so cute, um. And then I told him who it was. 589 00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:58,200 Speaker 1: He had really no reaction to the information itself. But 590 00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:01,000 Speaker 1: what he really wanted to know was if his brother 591 00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:04,279 Speaker 1: was conceived with the same donor, which I just thought 592 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:08,879 Speaker 1: was super sweet that he was more preoccupied was wanting 593 00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:15,000 Speaker 1: to share that his identity was someone Sure Sure, so incredible. 594 00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:19,200 Speaker 1: I have a really good friend on Scandal who Um, 595 00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:25,560 Speaker 1: she and her wife had a donor sperm and open 596 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:30,520 Speaker 1: a d I Y situation and they donated to another 597 00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:33,799 Speaker 1: family and they're really close and their kids look the same. 598 00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:38,200 Speaker 1: The kids really feel like you say, cousins, like they 599 00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:43,520 Speaker 1: have a connection. It's just there, like it's really amazing. 600 00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:49,160 Speaker 1: It's absolutely amazing. Um. When you were telling your oldest 601 00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:55,800 Speaker 1: who the donor was, how did you explain exactly, like 602 00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:58,440 Speaker 1: did you use the word donor? For example? Is that 603 00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:02,080 Speaker 1: the word that's used, and my kids were younger, the 604 00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:06,080 Speaker 1: language that I used was the person who helped us. 605 00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:10,200 Speaker 1: And so the way I would explain reproduction to my kids, 606 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:14,000 Speaker 1: you know, and talk about sperm meeting egg and how 607 00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:17,879 Speaker 1: often couples just get to do that on their own, 608 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:21,520 Speaker 1: but that some couples, like me and Kelly and plenty 609 00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:26,279 Speaker 1: of other couples, we needed help. And so eventually we've 610 00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:28,520 Speaker 1: built up to you know, do you want to know 611 00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:31,680 Speaker 1: who the person who helped us was? And I think 612 00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:34,560 Speaker 1: I held off on just being transparent about it immediately 613 00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:38,080 Speaker 1: because I didn't sense that my kid had the question yet. 614 00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:41,640 Speaker 1: But I know it's the deeper I'm into this, and 615 00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:46,480 Speaker 1: the deeper I've researched donor conceived children and things like that. 616 00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:51,479 Speaker 1: Apparently it's really important to be clear with with kids 617 00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:55,360 Speaker 1: as early as possible, because I think it actually creates 618 00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:59,560 Speaker 1: a trauma if they grow up thinking one thing or 619 00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:03,520 Speaker 1: assume one thing about their story. Now that's what it 620 00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:07,080 Speaker 1: really is. It's their origin story. And if they think 621 00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:10,479 Speaker 1: one thing about it and then learn later in life 622 00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:15,120 Speaker 1: that's something totally different is true, that's that's a big 623 00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:19,200 Speaker 1: emotional job for them to catch up. I agree. I 624 00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:23,480 Speaker 1: completely agree. It's like being it's the facts and honest 625 00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:27,000 Speaker 1: over the course of what we say, a bunch of 626 00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:32,040 Speaker 1: one minute conversations, not like one big hundred minute conversation, 627 00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:37,520 Speaker 1: and also using the developmentally appropriate language like you used, 628 00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:39,920 Speaker 1: which was this was the person who helped us, you know, 629 00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:43,240 Speaker 1: like that's great, Like that's something that they can understand 630 00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:47,200 Speaker 1: at a younger age. What advice would you go back 631 00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:50,920 Speaker 1: and tell yourself now, as far out as you are, 632 00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:53,760 Speaker 1: what would you do differently or what would you prepare 633 00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:56,120 Speaker 1: yourself better for our listeners who might be in the 634 00:40:56,200 --> 00:41:01,120 Speaker 1: midst of something like this. Yeah, well, really, I wouldn't 635 00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:04,320 Speaker 1: do anything differently just because I'm happy with the result 636 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:06,839 Speaker 1: and I don't want to I don't want to time 637 00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:12,600 Speaker 1: travel and tinker with things. But um, the advice I 638 00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:17,800 Speaker 1: would give, just on principle, I wish I had that 639 00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:21,759 Speaker 1: first time that Kelly and I visited the clinic. I 640 00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:25,960 Speaker 1: wish that I had enough self care impulse at that 641 00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:29,120 Speaker 1: moment to say, this isn't gonna be good for either 642 00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:33,760 Speaker 1: of us, Like let's let's look around for some other options, 643 00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:37,520 Speaker 1: or at least a different clinic that feels more set up. 644 00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:42,520 Speaker 1: To serve us. You shouldn't be met with every appointment 645 00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:46,680 Speaker 1: met with anything other than support and love and openness 646 00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:49,319 Speaker 1: and how we help. I hope that people are getting 647 00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:51,360 Speaker 1: that now, Oh God. And if they're not, like you 648 00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:56,480 Speaker 1: say your advice, just walk out. But bye. Yeah, I 649 00:41:56,640 --> 00:42:00,680 Speaker 1: honestly think telp me if you agree. I think we've 650 00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:05,840 Speaker 1: got a low bar for our care, as you know, 651 00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:12,719 Speaker 1: our fertility care in our country, fertility it's all a 652 00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:16,840 Speaker 1: triple threat of ship show. It's not that, it's we 653 00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:18,920 Speaker 1: have a very very low bar. And I don't know 654 00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:24,200 Speaker 1: why we're used to being treated poorly or just feeling like, 655 00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:29,719 Speaker 1: oh I'm not allowed to really seek better and just 656 00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:32,520 Speaker 1: accepting for what it is. I don't know. Yeah, I 657 00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:36,320 Speaker 1: think we treat good care is the exception. So I 658 00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:39,840 Speaker 1: think that's part of why I didn't move on earlier. 659 00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:43,279 Speaker 1: Is the kind of care I was getting just really 660 00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:47,040 Speaker 1: fit in pretty well with, you know, the kind of 661 00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:49,839 Speaker 1: care I was used to getting. Is there anything else 662 00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:52,919 Speaker 1: that you want to leave us with? Anything else comes 663 00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:55,239 Speaker 1: to mind for people who are listening in l g 664 00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:59,200 Speaker 1: B t Q plus community looking to get pregnant, Yeah, 665 00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:01,880 Speaker 1: I mean I guess a couple of things come to mind, 666 00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:05,440 Speaker 1: and one is I just think it's a really complex 667 00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:09,520 Speaker 1: landscape and I would just want to validate for people 668 00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:14,719 Speaker 1: that it does take time to find the right route 669 00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:17,279 Speaker 1: and the right path, and I would never want to 670 00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:21,520 Speaker 1: come across as advocating my own path that I went 671 00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:23,759 Speaker 1: on is the path. I think there are lots of 672 00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:27,920 Speaker 1: great answers to these questions, and I think it's just 673 00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:31,840 Speaker 1: about feeling through what's going to work for your family 674 00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:35,360 Speaker 1: to build your family. Um. And the other thing is 675 00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:41,440 Speaker 1: just I think those patriarchal routes really affect anyone who 676 00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:45,400 Speaker 1: navigates the industry. In some ways. It was more obvious 677 00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:48,600 Speaker 1: to me as a lesbian trying to to navigate it. 678 00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:51,600 Speaker 1: But what since publishing the book, You know, here from 679 00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:55,040 Speaker 1: women all the time about the bad care that they've received, 680 00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:58,440 Speaker 1: and I just think we can do better. I agree 681 00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:03,640 Speaker 1: with you whole hearted me answer this question. Parenthood is, 682 00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:14,080 Speaker 1: oh boy, so much more than I ever expected it 683 00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:18,239 Speaker 1: to be. You know what. The thing I always think 684 00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:21,080 Speaker 1: of with that is one time, when my kid was 685 00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:24,640 Speaker 1: like three years old, we were having some super cute 686 00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:29,960 Speaker 1: bedtime conversation and I was saying something about how I 687 00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:32,600 Speaker 1: remembered him as a baby and I can't I can't 688 00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:34,800 Speaker 1: believe that he was ever so little and he just 689 00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:38,400 Speaker 1: turned to me and said, I came here to destroy you. 690 00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:45,680 Speaker 1: And he was right. Friend of mine pointed out, like 691 00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:49,440 Speaker 1: that is what parenthood is the whole world because totally 692 00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:52,280 Speaker 1: turned upside turned upside down for all the great things, 693 00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:57,640 Speaker 1: ripped apart, put back together multiple times a day. That 694 00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:01,080 Speaker 1: kind of destruction because you can't to grow or change 695 00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:04,120 Speaker 1: or shift or learn without breaking it all down, you know, 696 00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:07,760 Speaker 1: which is so which really brings me back to your book. 697 00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:12,000 Speaker 1: I mean, it was really talking about these old systems 698 00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:14,480 Speaker 1: and patriarchal ideas that I never thought about with the 699 00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:19,200 Speaker 1: fertility industry and being a same sex couple trying to 700 00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:21,920 Speaker 1: have a baby and all of these things that I've 701 00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:25,120 Speaker 1: taken for granted. And I'm just so glad your book 702 00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:27,360 Speaker 1: exists and that you did all of the research and 703 00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:30,239 Speaker 1: the work and went through all of your personal experiences 704 00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:33,560 Speaker 1: and shared it with us and came on Katie's crib 705 00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:36,080 Speaker 1: to share it with a new audience. And I want 706 00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:39,080 Speaker 1: everyone to go and get the book again. It's called 707 00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:45,840 Speaker 1: The Other Mothers. Thank you so much, Jen, Bernie, thank 708 00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:48,200 Speaker 1: you guys so much for listening to the episode. I 709 00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:50,880 Speaker 1: learned so much. I hope you guys did too. And 710 00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:53,520 Speaker 1: for more, I love the book so much. Go out 711 00:45:53,640 --> 00:45:57,880 Speaker 1: and get Jen Bernie's book The Other Mothers. It is 712 00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:01,319 Speaker 1: well worth the read. And Happy Pride Month you all. 713 00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:07,000 Speaker 1: I love you, Share, subscribe, tell your friends, and also 714 00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:10,120 Speaker 1: if you have ideas, thoughts, questions, comments, you can always 715 00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:12,960 Speaker 1: find me at Katie's Crib at Shonda land dot com. 716 00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:19,440 Speaker 1: Katie's Crib is a production of Shonda Land Audio in 717 00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:22,520 Speaker 1: partnership with I heart Radio. For more podcasts from Shonda 718 00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:25,320 Speaker 1: Land Audio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 719 00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:40,239 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. You never 720 00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:44,480 Speaker 1: know till your track right