1 00:00:04,920 --> 00:00:07,000 Speaker 1: Welcome to It could happen here a podcast that you 2 00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:11,480 Speaker 1: have heard me introduce like probably wow, probably like seventy 3 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:15,680 Speaker 1: or eighty times by now. But yeah, you you have 4 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:18,079 Speaker 1: heard me introduce this podcast enough times, so you probably 5 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:20,079 Speaker 1: know what it's about. If you don't, it's about things 6 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:23,120 Speaker 1: falling apart and then putting it back together again. And 7 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:26,280 Speaker 1: today we are doing a historical things trying to go 8 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 1: back together and then fell apart again episodes and with me, 9 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:34,600 Speaker 1: I'm your host Christopher Wong, and with me is Nicholas Scott, 10 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:37,159 Speaker 1: who is a PhD candidate in Latin American history at 11 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:40,199 Speaker 1: u v A. Nicholas, welcome to the show. Thank you 12 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 1: so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. Yeah, 13 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:45,639 Speaker 1: I'm excited. I'm excited to have you. And today we're 14 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:49,600 Speaker 1: gonna be talking about something that we've we've mentioned before 15 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:52,480 Speaker 1: on a few other episodes that that we've done about 16 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 1: Chile and about the all End a period. But I 17 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 1: think like, well, we definitely have not given enough attention 18 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 1: and I think gets less. It's tension in the sort 19 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:05,760 Speaker 1: of mainstream like left analysis of what happened to all 20 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:08,560 Speaker 1: End and what was going on in that period. Which 21 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 1: is the Cordonas. And Nick has written about this a 22 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:15,360 Speaker 1: lot and is also writing more about this, and it 23 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 1: is doing research. Actually, do do do you do you care? 24 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:20,480 Speaker 1: Do you mind if I mentioned that you're in chileading 25 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:23,440 Speaker 1: research right now? No? Totally. Um, you know that's where 26 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:26,040 Speaker 1: I am. I'm here two years after the pandemic took 27 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 1: me away. I found being able to come back and 28 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 1: resume my research. Yeah. And so, Nicholas, I think in 29 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:34,680 Speaker 1: your work. The thing that I think is is different 30 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 1: about it than a lot of the the stuff that 31 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 1: you'll read about all End and about the Cordonas is 32 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 1: the sort of historicization of it. And so I won 33 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 1: I was wondering if if we can start back, I 34 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 1: guess in the sixties and talk a bit about the 35 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 1: sort of political situation that gets you to this sort 36 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 1: of revolutionary moment. Yeah, that's great. I mean, I think 37 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 1: it's important that we start at an earlier moment to 38 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 1: really understand how the Cordonas emerge as a specific um culture, 39 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:12,960 Speaker 1: a specific urban space across the city of Santiago. Uh. 40 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 1: You know, the English translation of the Cordonas industrialist would 41 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:18,920 Speaker 1: essentially just be industrial belts. So you can think of 42 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:22,080 Speaker 1: these as sort of sectors of the city where the 43 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 1: majority of sort of heavy industry had been based. UM. 44 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 1: And then these specters themselves were sort of roomnants of 45 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 1: the nineteenth century UH, specifically the railroad lines that would 46 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 1: UH sort of the main thoroughfares into the city of 47 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 1: Santiago from the countryside. UM. You know, over the course 48 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:42,520 Speaker 1: of the early twentieth century, as you have the development 49 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:46,399 Speaker 1: of industry in in Chile and in Santiago specifically, these 50 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 1: are the same areas then where these factories are are 51 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:52,279 Speaker 1: being developed because you have pre existing sort of transportation 52 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 1: networks that they're able to take advantage of. UM. The 53 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:58,639 Speaker 1: problem is is that you know, industrialization happens sort of 54 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 1: in fits and starts in the history of Chile UH. 55 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 1: And the other sort of problem is the problem of 56 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 1: transportation itself. So, for example, in the nineteen thirties, there's 57 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 1: an urban plan that gets developed for Santiago Centro or 58 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 1: the central part of Santiago, and they bring in an 59 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 1: Austrian urban planner, Carl Bruner, to help with this UH. 60 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 1: And while Carl Bruner essentially tries to do for Santiago 61 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:31,359 Speaker 1: UM what Hausman did for France, right widen boulevards make 62 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:35,600 Speaker 1: the city more accessible to new forms of transportation, right, 63 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 1: ideally the car buses, things of that nature. The problem 64 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 1: is is that he limited his work and his studies, 65 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 1: as I said, just to the center of Santiago itself. Uh. 66 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:50,760 Speaker 1: The other problem is that once Brunner leaves Santiago, the 67 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 1: plan that's actually put into effect um isn't necessarily all 68 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 1: of his plan. It was sort of a patchwork that 69 00:03:57,200 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 1: legislators um sort of pick and choose from when they 70 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 1: put this plan into effect. And so in between the 71 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 1: thirties and the nineteen sixties, you know, a lot is happening. Uh. 72 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 1: Primarily you have the sort of twin processes of industrialization, 73 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 1: sort of rapid industrialization that's taking place, which also have 74 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 1: this other process which is rural migration, sort of internal migration. 75 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 1: And this isn't a process that's limited to just Chile, right, 76 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 1: this is a region wide process that's happening all across 77 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:30,240 Speaker 1: Latin America. And you're having sort of two factors at 78 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 1: play in this miggration. Right. You're having the push factor 79 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 1: from the countryside, right, the lack of opportunity, lack of jobs, 80 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:41,600 Speaker 1: lack of secure employments UM from the countryside. And then 81 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:44,159 Speaker 1: you're also having the poll factor, which is, you know, 82 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:47,159 Speaker 1: these industries that are springing up in the city, as 83 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 1: well as the sort of infrastructure that a city would 84 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 1: afford relative to the countryside. UH. And these two processes 85 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:57,479 Speaker 1: sort of come to a head in the nineteen fifties 86 00:04:57,800 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 1: UM in Chile, and by the end of the nineteen 87 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:04,240 Speaker 1: fIF these UH it's clear to a growing set of people, UM, 88 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 1: including Juan Pariochia, who is an architect, UM, that something 89 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 1: needs to be done. There needs to be a new 90 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:14,479 Speaker 1: urban plan for the city of Santiago UH. And this 91 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:17,599 Speaker 1: urban plan what they try to do is it's the 92 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:21,360 Speaker 1: first time that there's a sort of intercommunal which communal 93 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 1: in the sense would be a rough translation to municipality 94 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 1: UM in English. So it's really the first sort of 95 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:31,240 Speaker 1: inter municipal urban plan that tries to link networks together. 96 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 1: And this is actually the first time that this word 97 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 1: corbone industrial appears in like an official government document. Right. 98 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:43,920 Speaker 1: That's the first time UM, that urban planners themselves are 99 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 1: thinking about zones of the city that are going to 100 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:51,039 Speaker 1: be specifically for industry. And so the idea is that 101 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 1: they want to move a lot of the industry that 102 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 1: has sprung up in those intervening years from the early 103 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 1: twentieth century that was located more in the center of 104 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 1: the city. They want to move it out of the 105 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 1: center of the city, you know, largely for things of pollution, safety, 106 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:07,760 Speaker 1: all of the things that go along with heavy industry. 107 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 1: They want it further on the periphery. Uh. And so 108 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:14,479 Speaker 1: that's part of this urban plan that essentially tries to 109 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 1: zone basically zone um these uh, these sectors. And so 110 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:22,479 Speaker 1: that's really where my disportation starts. That's where my research 111 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 1: really sort of starts. The stories and um, the late 112 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:29,160 Speaker 1: nineteen fifties, early nineteen sixties, when these urban plans are 113 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:32,000 Speaker 1: taking effect. And so what I'm interested in then is, 114 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 1: you know, how did the creation of these specific sectors 115 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 1: of the city as industrial zones, how did they then 116 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:43,480 Speaker 1: give rise to an urban culture that will then manifest 117 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 1: itself in a very revolutionary moment once comes to power. Yeah, 118 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:51,600 Speaker 1: And I think that that's an interesting way to look 119 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:55,839 Speaker 1: at it because I think, you know, because the process 120 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:58,279 Speaker 1: of sort of industry moving from the center of the 121 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:02,799 Speaker 1: urban core outwards is something as happens really across the world. 122 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:06,240 Speaker 1: But mostly after that period and that that that's one 123 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:08,359 Speaker 1: of the one of the things that struck me about it. 124 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 1: That's interesting I want to ask you about, which is 125 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 1: so to what extent is this Is this a different 126 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 1: process than the kind of like, you know, the kind 127 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 1: of suburbanization that you see of of industry in the US, 128 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 1: for example, in like the nineteen eighties, or is it 129 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 1: closer to well, you know, I've talked I've talked about this, 130 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 1: I guess on the show in the Chinese context to 131 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:32,559 Speaker 1: where you have i mean mostly pollution stuff has seen 132 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 1: like some industry sort of like I mean just literally 133 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 1: getting pushed into into rural areas. Is it is it 134 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 1: like is it like those same kind of impulses or 135 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 1: is there a different kind of um like relation, I mean, 136 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 1: like how far out of the city, like is this 137 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 1: stuff like getting pushed to That's a great question, It's 138 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 1: a wonderful question, um And you know it is actually important. 139 00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 1: This is important to remember that at this time the 140 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 1: city of Santiago, you know, just outside the city of 141 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:04,680 Speaker 1: Santiago is is still largely rural. Right where where the 142 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 1: first cordon will emerge on the southwestern side of the 143 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 1: city is still a largely rural part of the city itself. Uh. 144 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 1: And so it is very similar to the dynamics that 145 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 1: you're describing, and that it is pushing you know, away 146 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 1: from where people are living, right, two more rural places 147 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 1: where there is more land both to build, right, So 148 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 1: there is the availability of space, but there's also less 149 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 1: people living in that space. So from the planner's perspective, 150 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 1: it's considered better because the sort of you know, chemical 151 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 1: and heavy metal runoffs from a lot of the metal 152 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 1: working factories, all of these things and the pollution from smokestacks, etcetera, um, 153 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 1: you know, are less harmful. The problem then becomes, however, Um, 154 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 1: the as I mentioned the rural migration and people that 155 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 1: are migrating to the city. You know, there's not space 156 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 1: in the center of the city for these people to live, right, 157 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:02,240 Speaker 1: So they're moving then to the same areas. So in 158 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 1: some senses, the sort of historical dynamics of the region 159 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 1: are undercutting the sort of success of the planners when 160 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 1: it comes to making these zones away from the city itself. Um. 161 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 1: And I guess I guess that that would be something 162 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:19,319 Speaker 1: also that that's interesting about this, which is that I 163 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 1: think because like, you know, the sort of like decentralization 164 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:24,840 Speaker 1: of industry, and that the push into rural areas I 165 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:27,560 Speaker 1: think largely did not produce a kind of like radical 166 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:30,080 Speaker 1: working class culture. But but but it seems like you 167 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:32,559 Speaker 1: have this kind of vailing factor here, which is that 168 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:36,760 Speaker 1: you have a bunch of people who are like who 169 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 1: are who are coming into industrial work for the first 170 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 1: time out of the countryside, which tends to be a 171 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 1: very radical faction. Like, is that one of the things 172 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:46,959 Speaker 1: that gives you this sort of radical culture instead of 173 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:49,720 Speaker 1: the kind of like total disintecreation of the class that 174 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 1: you see in the sort of later versions of this. 175 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 1: This is such a beautiful question, and this this question 176 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:58,960 Speaker 1: really lays the heart of my research. So if we 177 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:02,600 Speaker 1: scope out just for a and think about this historiographically, Uh, 178 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:05,599 Speaker 1: in Chile, there is a vein of historiography that is 179 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:09,240 Speaker 1: very concerned with these rural migrants, which, once they arrive 180 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 1: in the city are referred to as pobladores, right, which 181 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 1: we can roughly translate this sort of urban poor, right, um. 182 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 1: And they're considered a sort of capital s social subject 183 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 1: that is distinct from a worker or from a working class, um, 184 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 1: from a sociological point of view, right, um. And the 185 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:33,120 Speaker 1: reason this is is because a lot of them, um, 186 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:35,599 Speaker 1: while they are workers, you know, they are part of 187 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:39,720 Speaker 1: the working class, functionally, they're sort of social concern and 188 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 1: the social movement that is bound up or known as 189 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 1: the sort of pueblad or movement, is a movement for housing. Right. 190 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:48,680 Speaker 1: Because they are arriving at these sort of vacant parts 191 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 1: of the city. Um, the they bring with them the 192 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:55,559 Speaker 1: sort of as you mentioned, their own histories of struggle 193 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 1: from the countryside, of which the sort of main tactic 194 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:02,679 Speaker 1: is the poma or seizure right. And so what they 195 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:04,960 Speaker 1: will do when they arrive in these places of land 196 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:08,120 Speaker 1: is that they will seize these lots and they will 197 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 1: erect a structure on it. In doing so, then they 198 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 1: would use that to stake a claim to as a 199 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 1: claim of property rights right, as a claim for their 200 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 1: own proper home and everything that would go with it 201 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 1: within um, within a city, infrastructure right, utilities, sewage, etcetera. Um, 202 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 1: that's what they would leverage them as a claim for that. 203 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:33,559 Speaker 1: And so my project is essentially trying to break down 204 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 1: this analytic barrier that has separated the popelador from the 205 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:41,560 Speaker 1: worker in the historiography, specifically in the historiography of things 206 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 1: like the Cortonas and the popular Unity years during all end, 207 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:48,520 Speaker 1: because as I mentioned, many of these people once they're 208 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 1: moving to the cities and you know, moving into what 209 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 1: would be referred to as either complimentos or probationists. Uh, 210 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:58,120 Speaker 1: you know, they're looking for work, and they're finding work 211 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:01,199 Speaker 1: at a lot of these factories that are nearby where 212 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:04,960 Speaker 1: they're moving. Now. In doing so, however, they're coming into 213 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:10,040 Speaker 1: contact they're sort of mixing with the older generation of 214 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 1: migrants that migrated from the north of Chile, right from 215 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:16,320 Speaker 1: the mining sector in the north of Chile following the 216 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:19,280 Speaker 1: Great Depression, which is the sort of historical birth of 217 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:23,600 Speaker 1: the labor movement in Chile, the nitrates sector um in 218 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 1: the far north of Churle, Chile, which, following the development 219 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:30,320 Speaker 1: of sort of synthetic forms of explosives, nitrates are not 220 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:34,719 Speaker 1: saltpeter specifically, is not as high in demand anymore. So 221 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 1: you have a lot of people migrating to the city 222 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:40,320 Speaker 1: to begin working in the industries there, right. So those 223 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:43,600 Speaker 1: sort of older working class who also have their own 224 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 1: sort of history of struggle, history of tactics, etcetera. And 225 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:52,840 Speaker 1: this newer form of worker there right are mixing and 226 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 1: they're sort of mixing in these areas in specific, and that, 227 00:12:57,120 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 1: to me is why it's so important to think about 228 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:03,720 Speaker 1: the cordonus is more than just an organization that emerges 229 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:06,920 Speaker 1: in the early nineteen seventies and really think about them 230 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:10,959 Speaker 1: as a space, as a geographic space that developed their 231 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 1: own unique forms of local culture informed by these larger, 232 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 1: more macro historical processes. Yeah. That that that that seems 233 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 1: like a much more I don't know if I don't 234 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:25,840 Speaker 1: know if productive is the right word, though it is, 235 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:30,760 Speaker 1: but I think, yeah, I think that is a better 236 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:33,160 Speaker 1: way of thinking about it than what you usually see 237 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:36,960 Speaker 1: because yeah, that that kind of the fact that, Yeah, 238 00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 1: the fact that you have multiple different essentially like you 239 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:44,079 Speaker 1: have you have multiple difference so it is like sociological 240 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:47,199 Speaker 1: classes mixing. You have, you have their tactics sort of fusing, 241 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:51,320 Speaker 1: and that developing its own culture. That's that's distinct, I 242 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:56,360 Speaker 1: think from a lot of the you know, because this 243 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 1: this this is a business a period of time like 244 00:13:57,679 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 1: the late nineteen sies, early nine seventies is like the 245 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:03,320 Speaker 1: olden age of the factory occupation, and I think, you know, 246 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:06,760 Speaker 1: I think you can draw similarities between that and between 247 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 1: the Cardonis, but I think I don't know. I mean, 248 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 1: it'll is a version of this that that that I 249 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:15,679 Speaker 1: know the best, and that one, I guess sort of 250 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:17,600 Speaker 1: also has a similar dynamic of you get you get 251 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 1: a bunch of that, you have this mixing of of 252 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 1: sort of the old urban working class, but that you 253 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:24,560 Speaker 1: have a bunch of um, you know, you have this 254 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 1: huge labor migration from from the south, from the rural 255 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:29,720 Speaker 1: areas that that mixes in there. And I'm wondering, I guess, 256 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 1: like when when you talk about sort of the culture 257 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 1: of this, how how much of that is something that 258 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 1: you think is like a distinct product of like this 259 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 1: exact configuration of of so social class is hitting each 260 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:50,600 Speaker 1: other and to what extent it's kind of like a 261 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 1: process that we've that you find in other places where 262 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 1: you have you have these sort of market worker like 263 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 1: first generation market work the basis hitting these sort of 264 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 1: older industrial working classes. Yeah. No, I think that your 265 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:08,320 Speaker 1: spot on, right. I think that this is um a 266 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 1: larger global history, right, this is a moment in which 267 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 1: you are having a lot of migration from countryside into 268 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 1: the city worldwide. Right, you have a lot of French 269 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:20,280 Speaker 1: intellectuals at this moment thinking about sort of what does 270 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 1: it mean that the city is perhaps becoming the new focus, 271 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:28,040 Speaker 1: the sort of new locusts of social movements and social actions. 272 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:30,360 Speaker 1: You know, what does it mean that the city is 273 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 1: dominant over the countryside, um? And things like that. But 274 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 1: I think it's different, or not necessarily different, but perhaps 275 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:41,720 Speaker 1: unique in the Chilean case, um, is that this is 276 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:47,280 Speaker 1: a you know, you have a culture in Chile that 277 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 1: is known world over for its political culture. Right, everyone 278 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:54,840 Speaker 1: at this moment was thinking and talking politically, uh, and 279 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 1: talking about big you know, grand ideas of politics, not 280 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:02,280 Speaker 1: just you know, sort of everyday politics, but how did 281 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 1: everyday politics inform these larger sort of social struggles. Right, 282 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 1: this is still a moment when socialism is on the table, right, Um. 283 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 1: And so you have you know, not that this is 284 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 1: different than other places in the world. Clearly, as you mentioned, 285 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:17,840 Speaker 1: in Italy, socialism is very much still on the table. 286 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 1: Communism is very much still on the table there as well, Um. 287 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:25,680 Speaker 1: But in Chile, what is different is that there is 288 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:30,520 Speaker 1: this idea that one could perhaps legislate socialism right, or 289 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 1: that one could use the means of democracy to achieve socialism. Right. 290 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:37,000 Speaker 1: That's what's going to make the end a government so 291 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 1: unique in this moment um. But what also makes the 292 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 1: court bonus unique is this sort of relationship between social 293 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 1: space and physical space in the city. So, for example, 294 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 1: the very first court zone that emerges in nineteen two 295 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:54,480 Speaker 1: Studios Maipoo, as I mentioned earlier, on the southwest of 296 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:57,600 Speaker 1: the city. That one, as I mentioned, because it had 297 00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 1: such close contact with the old sector on that edge, 298 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:07,200 Speaker 1: had a lot more solidarity between world laborers and factory laborers, 299 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:10,960 Speaker 1: such that by ninety three you have factory labors going 300 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:15,720 Speaker 1: out of their factory and helping world labors sees their 301 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 1: properties and hold their properties um away from the landowners 302 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 1: essentially right and claiming sort of a redistributive um you know, 303 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 1: land for those who work at type of strategy. This 304 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 1: is say, different from the cordon that my dissertation is 305 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:34,439 Speaker 1: focused on Facuna Mcana, which, as as I mentioned, a 306 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:39,240 Speaker 1: much larger segment of popolodors living nearby it, right uh, 307 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 1: And so you have a much larger solidarity between the 308 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:45,680 Speaker 1: popolodors and between factory workers. And what makes that even 309 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:47,919 Speaker 1: more unique in this case is the role of the 310 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:50,640 Speaker 1: Catholic Church. And this is really one of the sort 311 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:53,240 Speaker 1: of new things that my dissertation is trying to do, 312 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 1: is what is the role of the Catholic Church here? So, 313 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:01,560 Speaker 1: for example, the Catholic Church history really within the and 314 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:05,159 Speaker 1: within the historiography as well, UM has always been associated 315 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:07,960 Speaker 1: with the public door movement, right because of this sort 316 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:11,560 Speaker 1: of connection to the countryside, because of the churches sort 317 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:16,160 Speaker 1: of you know, missionary kind of work and going out 318 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:20,320 Speaker 1: into the population, you know, poor populations, especially following Vatican 319 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:23,879 Speaker 1: to UM that in which they begin to sort of 320 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 1: have more outreach into the poor sectors. UM. But it's 321 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:32,520 Speaker 1: never really seen or rather very few scholars have thought 322 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 1: about or looked at what does this mean then for 323 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:38,919 Speaker 1: those individuals who may have lived in a position but 324 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 1: who worked in a factory In other words, what was 325 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:45,960 Speaker 1: the relationship between the sort of social pastoral message of 326 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:50,720 Speaker 1: the church and the sort of socialism of a factory worker. Uh. 327 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 1: And in the case of the Quamacina there's actually very 328 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 1: strong links here. So specifically the San Kayatano parish, which 329 00:18:57,080 --> 00:18:59,719 Speaker 1: is located just to the west of the Corvillone proper 330 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:04,320 Speaker 1: um was was fundamental in helping some of the workers 331 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 1: established unions uh in in the cordon. So, for example, 332 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:12,879 Speaker 1: the Sumar Textile factory, which was functionally a city unto itself. 333 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 1: This this textile company had a series of different factories 334 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 1: within its property. So it had a cotton plant, it 335 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:24,200 Speaker 1: had a nylon plant, a silk plant that had a 336 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:27,640 Speaker 1: polyester plant, and each of these different plants than each 337 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 1: had their own um unions and UH in Chile. In 338 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:34,680 Speaker 1: the labor code in Chile from the nineteen thirties, there 339 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:38,879 Speaker 1: were two different types of unions per factory or per plant. 340 00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:41,399 Speaker 1: You had the industrial union, which we could think of 341 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:44,680 Speaker 1: as the blue collar worker union, and then you had 342 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:47,720 Speaker 1: in Platos union, which we can think of as a 343 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 1: more white collar union. These would be the sort of 344 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:55,399 Speaker 1: professionals in the factory, the sort of technicians, uh the engineers, right, 345 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:57,639 Speaker 1: not so much the manual labors, but everyone else in 346 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 1: the factory and in the case of Sumar specifically the 347 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 1: cotton plant itself. UM in the late nineties sixties, when 348 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,119 Speaker 1: they're trying to found their union for the first time, 349 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:10,240 Speaker 1: they don't have anywhere to go to find it. To 350 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:12,639 Speaker 1: to found it right, because they can't do it in 351 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:15,399 Speaker 1: the factory itself, because management, the bosses will crack down 352 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 1: on it. They don't have their own local yet because 353 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:21,159 Speaker 1: they haven't founded union. And so what they ultimately do 354 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:24,240 Speaker 1: is they reach out to the parish priest in San Kayatano, 355 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:27,840 Speaker 1: who is you know, who offers them help and in 356 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:30,560 Speaker 1: doing so offers them a space to hold their first 357 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:33,560 Speaker 1: union vote. Uh. And that's actually how the Union of 358 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:37,040 Speaker 1: Sumar gets founded. Sumar will go on to play a 359 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 1: major role both in the cor bonus and then after 360 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:43,320 Speaker 1: the cordonus during the dictatorship. It's a it's a very um, 361 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:47,680 Speaker 1: very important factory uh in this history. Um. But it's 362 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:51,360 Speaker 1: often overlooked that, you know, the church played a very 363 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:54,959 Speaker 1: fundamental role in the sort of larger history of the 364 00:20:54,960 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 1: working class formation of the Sumar workers. I mean, it 365 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:09,400 Speaker 1: brings us to one of the things about this period 366 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:12,879 Speaker 1: that's I guess becoming to be better understood. But I 367 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 1: think if you're a person who has not spent time 368 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:19,280 Speaker 1: looking at this might look kind of weird, which is that, Yeah, 369 00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:21,639 Speaker 1: it's just that the Catholic Church in this period in 370 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:26,080 Speaker 1: a in a lot of Latin America, like takes especially 371 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:29,240 Speaker 1: Adican Tubia like it takes this like very hard left 372 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:33,320 Speaker 1: turn that yeah, I mean, has all of these causes 373 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:36,840 Speaker 1: that like you know, like you get like the the 374 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 1: Italian version of it is like you get a bunch 375 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 1: of priests who are just like like like clergyman literally 376 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:47,640 Speaker 1: doing kidnappings of like random government officials. And I think, yeah, 377 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 1: I guess in in in in this context, what what's 378 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:01,399 Speaker 1: interesting to me, I guess is yeah, like how how much? Okay, So, 379 00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:05,120 Speaker 1: like what is the the you're you're talking You're talking 380 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:08,680 Speaker 1: about the sort of like the sort of pastoralism of 381 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:14,399 Speaker 1: this this sort of like social gospel message. Is there 382 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 1: is there like a divide between the way the church 383 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:18,200 Speaker 1: is working in the city and the ways working in 384 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 1: the countryside or is it just sort of like it's 385 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 1: all shifting left but they're more the influence of the 386 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:30,320 Speaker 1: church is larger in among sort of real and extoral people. 387 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:33,960 Speaker 1: That's actually really good question. And this is actually where 388 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:36,200 Speaker 1: I'm in the midst of sort of trying to figure 389 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 1: this out. Specifically, UM. For the past three weeks, I've 390 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 1: actually been working in the church archives here in Santiago, UM, 391 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:44,399 Speaker 1: and so that's actually the documents that I'm sort of 392 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:48,199 Speaker 1: sifting through as as we speak, UM, and so one 393 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:50,359 Speaker 1: thing I can say for certain as of now, what 394 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:53,159 Speaker 1: I've been able to sort of uncover is that, you know, 395 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:57,000 Speaker 1: the Church was not homogeneous, and it certainly wasn't monolithic, 396 00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:01,160 Speaker 1: not in Latin America and definitely not in Santia, you know, uh, 397 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 1: you know, in the region itself. Following Vatican to you 398 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:08,119 Speaker 1: have the Episcopal Conference of Latin America's second conference that 399 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:11,640 Speaker 1: takes place in the nineteen sixties in Median and that's 400 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:15,119 Speaker 1: where the sort of the idea of liberation theology is born. 401 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:21,200 Speaker 1: Right falling Median then in Chile, the the Episcopal Conference 402 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:26,160 Speaker 1: of Chile then is basically tasked with determining a way 403 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 1: to fit its own pastoralism, its own sort of pastoral 404 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:34,160 Speaker 1: plan within these new structures that they are a party too, 405 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:38,160 Speaker 1: because they are part of this larger conference in Latin 406 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:41,280 Speaker 1: America itself. And so, you know, one thing that I 407 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 1: have uncovered in the documents is that this is very 408 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 1: much you begin to see a divide amongst the bishops, 409 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:52,560 Speaker 1: amongst the church hierarchy here that UM are very you know, 410 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 1: interested in following this new plan of action, but they're 411 00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,679 Speaker 1: also wary of some of the discourse that is surrounding this. 412 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 1: So one example that comes to mind here is the 413 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:07,200 Speaker 1: idea of liberation itself. Right, we often talk about liberation theology, 414 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 1: and we often talk about it is that it was 415 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:13,720 Speaker 1: just sort of accepted wholesale by the church in Latin America. Well, 416 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:16,600 Speaker 1: a lot of the documents that I'm encuntering here are 417 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 1: there's a great debate over the use of liberations, specifically 418 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 1: because the idea of liberation is so tied up with Marxism, right, 419 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:29,399 Speaker 1: and that is you know, at this time, the Catholic 420 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:33,399 Speaker 1: Church as a global institution and Marxism as a global 421 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:38,399 Speaker 1: ideology are scene as antithetical. And here the idea that 422 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:41,639 Speaker 1: in the Church's view, at least from these documents, the 423 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:44,120 Speaker 1: idea of Marxism that it's talking about when it's using 424 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:47,640 Speaker 1: Marxism is very much the Soviet Union, right, It's very 425 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 1: much the sort of atheistic approach to the church to 426 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 1: religion that comes out of the early form of Marxism 427 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:59,200 Speaker 1: Leninism from early twentieth century. And so there's a great 428 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:02,480 Speaker 1: debate on whether or not to use liberation, and ultimately, 429 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:06,520 Speaker 1: you know, those supporting this discourse went out UM and 430 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:10,000 Speaker 1: and it is decided that liberation will be the words 431 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 1: and the sort of discourse that the parish priests UM 432 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:16,920 Speaker 1: will use. But the other big thing that comes out 433 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 1: of this in addition to this sort of discourse of liberation, 434 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:25,360 Speaker 1: is this new idea of UM Catholic base communities. Right, 435 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 1: is this whole new framework for UM sort of understanding 436 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:34,000 Speaker 1: a Christian community. Right. Prior to this innovation of the 437 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,920 Speaker 1: base community, you know, a Christian community was defined by 438 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:40,200 Speaker 1: the hierarchy of the church. Right, you have the sort 439 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 1: of congregation, you have your parishes, you have the different 440 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:49,440 Speaker 1: UM sort of structural and bureaucratic UH designations that sort 441 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:52,760 Speaker 1: of link from a parish upward UM to the sort 442 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 1: of church hierarchy itself. But the based community essentially is 443 00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:00,840 Speaker 1: saying that, you know, wherever a few people gather and 444 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 1: are studying the Word of God or reading scripture or 445 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:08,199 Speaker 1: having theological debates, that that should be considered, you know, 446 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 1: part of the church, UM should be considered that part 447 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 1: of the church. And so in that sense, we can 448 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:17,159 Speaker 1: look at say San Kayatano Parish and the work that 449 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:20,400 Speaker 1: it's doing with workers and assume our factory and sort 450 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 1: of this has me thinking about, you know, what does 451 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:25,080 Speaker 1: it mean? You know, what do these based communities look 452 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:28,000 Speaker 1: like in practice? Is it possible for us to conceive 453 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:32,479 Speaker 1: of workers who are reaching out to their local priest 454 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:37,400 Speaker 1: for assistance as perhaps their own Christian based community or furthermore, 455 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:40,199 Speaker 1: you know, at this time in Chile, in addition to 456 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 1: the leftist political parties, the Socialists and the communist which 457 00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:47,200 Speaker 1: is you know, a majority of workers, the Christian Democrats 458 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 1: are also a large force. Right In nineteen sixty four, 459 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:54,680 Speaker 1: President at what a praise elected as a Christian Democrat, 460 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 1: and he's the sort of what will initiate a process 461 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:03,520 Speaker 1: that will culminate with Allende's election in nineteen seventy UM, 462 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:06,480 Speaker 1: and by that I mean he initiates what he refers 463 00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:09,640 Speaker 1: as to a revolution in liberty um, which is sort 464 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:14,360 Speaker 1: of a communitarian reformism that is essentially seen as perhaps 465 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:19,080 Speaker 1: forestalling Marxist revolution, a socialist revolution from taking place. But 466 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:23,960 Speaker 1: it's incredibly popular amongst working class and workers UM. And 467 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:27,960 Speaker 1: the Christian Democrat party itself was a very wide ranging 468 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:32,200 Speaker 1: party that encompassed right wing elements but also left wing elements. 469 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:34,120 Speaker 1: Can we can we talk a bit a bit more 470 00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:36,760 Speaker 1: about like what the Christian Christian Democrats are, because this 471 00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:41,040 Speaker 1: is a thing that like doesn't really exist anymore, but was, 472 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:44,959 Speaker 1: I think, like a very important player. Like I mean, 473 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:47,480 Speaker 1: there's there's there's very powerful wipocratic parties and you're up 474 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,720 Speaker 1: there is very powerful Chusian depocratic parties like across Latin America. Yeah, 475 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 1: can we can we talk a bit about like what 476 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,719 Speaker 1: that is and how that's different from like, you know, 477 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:58,160 Speaker 1: how how it's different from just like your your generic 478 00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:02,200 Speaker 1: your generic socialist party, and how it's different even from 479 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:04,359 Speaker 1: your sort of like I don't know, you're like Labor 480 00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:07,480 Speaker 1: party social democrats. Yeah, no, I mean this is this 481 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:09,480 Speaker 1: is a great question, and you're right, this isn't something 482 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:11,800 Speaker 1: that is sort of exists in the present moment, so 483 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:15,240 Speaker 1: it does seem very foreign to us. Um. But really 484 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:18,120 Speaker 1: with the sort of wager that the Christian Democrats make 485 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:22,359 Speaker 1: is that you know, in theory, they agree for the 486 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:27,720 Speaker 1: need for structural change, right in theory, the alleviation of poverty, 487 00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 1: a more a more just distribution of wealth, right, but 488 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:35,680 Speaker 1: their ideas of justice and things, and this is where 489 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:38,280 Speaker 1: the Christianity, part of the Christian democrat comes in, right, 490 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:42,360 Speaker 1: is that it is justice as understood in a Christian 491 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 1: sense of justice, right, not in a sort of more 492 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:50,160 Speaker 1: radical egalitarian sense of justice that stay a socialist or 493 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 1: a communist would believe in, you know. So, for a 494 00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:55,920 Speaker 1: socialist or a communist, the sort of motor of history 495 00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:59,120 Speaker 1: is class struggle. Right. For a Christian democrat, the motor 496 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:03,000 Speaker 1: of history is God and his son Jesus Christ. Right. 497 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 1: And that is the sort of would be I guess 498 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:07,920 Speaker 1: you could think of as the main difference. And then 499 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:11,920 Speaker 1: how that plays out in practical terms would be in 500 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:14,640 Speaker 1: a for a communist, for a socialist, right, you want 501 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:19,440 Speaker 1: a sort of radical communism, dictatorship of the proletariat. These 502 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:23,600 Speaker 1: types of forms are very stagist movement through history. For 503 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:27,840 Speaker 1: a Christian democrat, however, it's much more of a communitarian ethic. Right, 504 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:32,200 Speaker 1: It's much more of a harmonization between say, the bourgeoisie 505 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:36,960 Speaker 1: and the proletariat, rather than an overthrowing and an eradication 506 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:40,480 Speaker 1: of the bourgeoisie by the proletariat, as it would be 507 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:43,840 Speaker 1: for say a socialist or a communist. Yeah, and I 508 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 1: guess that that's something I want to like. I want 509 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:50,480 Speaker 1: to move a bit to talking about all End a briefly, 510 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:52,760 Speaker 1: because I think that's an interesting and one of the 511 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,360 Speaker 1: things you're talking about earlier is ill End talking about Okay, 512 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:57,479 Speaker 1: well we can have a democratic path to socialism. And 513 00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 1: what's what's very interesting to me about both Allende and 514 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:04,040 Speaker 1: what's happening in the cordonation is that like, okay, so 515 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:06,200 Speaker 1: like that that that is a that that idea has 516 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:08,040 Speaker 1: been around for a very long time, and like there 517 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:11,920 Speaker 1: are a lot of people who take power who are like, okay, 518 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:14,840 Speaker 1: we're taking an amocratic path of socialism. And then you know, 519 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:17,640 Speaker 1: like what a lot of whim are Like Germany right 520 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:20,920 Speaker 1: is ruled by by the German Social Democratic Party, and 521 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 1: it's like, well you look at what they do and 522 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:26,880 Speaker 1: they're not really like socialist NG they're most I mean, 523 00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:28,840 Speaker 1: you know, they're they're they're they're doing they're doing things 524 00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:32,320 Speaker 1: like like they're doing things like welfare reform. But that's 525 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:34,680 Speaker 1: a very different thing. Well, and you know, and you 526 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:36,800 Speaker 1: can see like the Labor Party in in in the 527 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:40,120 Speaker 1: UK for example, well like okay, well the nationalized industries, right, 528 00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:44,360 Speaker 1: but you you don't see the kind of movements against 529 00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:47,920 Speaker 1: like the the you don't see the kind of movement 530 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:52,200 Speaker 1: against property and then the movement against sort of like 531 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:55,120 Speaker 1: like you don't see an actual attempt to like eliminate 532 00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 1: the which was he as a class in the same 533 00:30:57,360 --> 00:30:59,040 Speaker 1: way that you do about Chile. And so I was wondering, like, 534 00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:03,000 Speaker 1: what what makes like, what was it about this moment 535 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:08,360 Speaker 1: that someone who claim that actually comes into power and 536 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 1: starts doing it and starts doing in a way that's 537 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:18,000 Speaker 1: not just the sort of like you know when most 538 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,240 Speaker 1: of the time when someone nationalizes something, right, it's okay. 539 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:24,720 Speaker 1: So instead of instead of having a boss, that is, 540 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:28,160 Speaker 1: instead of having a boss whose job it is to 541 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 1: like make money for the stock market, you have a 542 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:32,200 Speaker 1: boss who works for the state. And there there there's 543 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,200 Speaker 1: there's there's very little sort of like structural change in 544 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:37,760 Speaker 1: how and how the bureaucracy has run. There's no change. 545 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:42,000 Speaker 1: And like your your individual relation to your boss does 546 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:47,640 Speaker 1: not change. She's still your boss, and that isn't what 547 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 1: happens in Chile, in in in in the in the 548 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:56,440 Speaker 1: same way that Yeah, I'm interested, why why why why 549 00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 1: this looks different here? I guess no, I think this 550 00:31:59,880 --> 00:32:02,560 Speaker 1: is a great question, you know, And so to to 551 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,280 Speaker 1: get to end A, it is imperative that we start 552 00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:08,800 Speaker 1: with Fray in nineteen sixty four, and in some sences 553 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:11,240 Speaker 1: we can start even in nineteen fifty seven, which is 554 00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:15,000 Speaker 1: End's first attempt at running for president UM. At this 555 00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:19,760 Speaker 1: time i end is running UM as essentially the last gasp, 556 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:22,280 Speaker 1: you could say, of the Popular Front which emerged in 557 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:25,040 Speaker 1: the nineteen thirties and into the nineteen forties and had 558 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:29,840 Speaker 1: successfully united a large swath of the political parties in Chile. 559 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:33,320 Speaker 1: And this is what led to that earlier moment of industrialization, 560 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:37,840 Speaker 1: largely through the sort of policy known as imports substitution industrialization, 561 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:42,040 Speaker 1: when which you know, the national industries would be built, 562 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:46,120 Speaker 1: they would be protected via tariffs, price controls, and others 563 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:49,480 Speaker 1: that would stimulate local growth to produce products that would 564 00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:54,360 Speaker 1: have otherwise been importorted. However, by the late nineteen fifties, 565 00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:58,080 Speaker 1: things have begun to bottleneck right, largely in the Chilian case, 566 00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:00,960 Speaker 1: because a lot of the countryside is still under control 567 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:04,480 Speaker 1: of the Latin fundio of grand estate, right, which means 568 00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:07,800 Speaker 1: that productivity isn't necessarily where it should be UM. But 569 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:11,280 Speaker 1: it also means that the labor force that's sort of 570 00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:14,840 Speaker 1: stuck on the land as well. Isn't available then for 571 00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:18,200 Speaker 1: the development of capital goods in industry, right, and the 572 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 1: capital goods are what you need to really jump start 573 00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:25,400 Speaker 1: industry wholesale. What Chila does really well is that sort 574 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:30,920 Speaker 1: of in a mediary phase of making goods for individual consumption, right, 575 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:34,360 Speaker 1: things of things of that nature. Uh. And so what 576 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:38,920 Speaker 1: End does is essentially trying to first run on a 577 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:44,600 Speaker 1: platform of industrialization and to fix inflation, right uh. And 578 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:48,080 Speaker 1: he narrowly loses. He just barely loses the election. In 579 00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:52,880 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty seven, Hill who wins is Alessandri wins. Uh. 580 00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:56,760 Speaker 1: And he will essentially adopt a very classical liberal approach, 581 00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:02,920 Speaker 1: free market reforms, repress of labor in some senses, freezing 582 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:05,360 Speaker 1: of any sort of gains of the labor movement, et cetera. 583 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:10,000 Speaker 1: This ultimately does not work, right. And so in nineteen four, 584 00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:13,040 Speaker 1: you know, Shaker, you have calls then for a more 585 00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:16,880 Speaker 1: revolutionary approach. Well. Also, what's happening in nineteen sixty four, 586 00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:19,400 Speaker 1: right as we're now in the wake of the Cuban 587 00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:24,560 Speaker 1: Revolution which has taken place, which has put the America's 588 00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:29,080 Speaker 1: as a hemispheric designation unnoticed that now it is possible 589 00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:34,520 Speaker 1: to have uh sort of a revolution via insurrection via 590 00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:38,200 Speaker 1: guerilla warfare be successful, right, and not only be successful, 591 00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:42,480 Speaker 1: but be successful in defeating the hedgemon of the hemisphere, 592 00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:45,439 Speaker 1: the United States. And so what the United States will 593 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,319 Speaker 1: then do is launched the Alliance for Progress, which is 594 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:52,360 Speaker 1: essentially a way of funneling money into reformist minded governments 595 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:56,680 Speaker 1: as a way to appease these calls for revolution UM, 596 00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:59,919 Speaker 1: but prevent a sort of Marxist revolution from taking place. 597 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:02,680 Speaker 1: So in the case of Chile, the Alliance through Progress 598 00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:09,440 Speaker 1: will funnel many, many amounts of dollars into the Fray administration. 599 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:14,120 Speaker 1: UM and Frey wins the nineteen sixty four election handily. Now, 600 00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:16,080 Speaker 1: there's a great debate to be had on whether or 601 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:19,239 Speaker 1: not the or whether the involvement of the CIA and 602 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,680 Speaker 1: a sort of scare tactic and fearmongering campaign went on 603 00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:25,680 Speaker 1: in the nineteen sixty four campaign. Unfortunately, we just don't 604 00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:28,880 Speaker 1: have the documents yet UM for this period, like we 605 00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:30,960 Speaker 1: do for the nineteen seventies and to lead up to 606 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:34,040 Speaker 1: the coup in the nineteen seventies. UM. You know, hopefully 607 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:36,040 Speaker 1: one day we'll have a better sense of really what 608 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:40,400 Speaker 1: went on that explains such a lot sighted defeat of 609 00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:44,000 Speaker 1: end nineteen sixty four UM, so Frey will come to 610 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,080 Speaker 1: power in nineteen sixty four, and actually the agrarian reform 611 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:51,000 Speaker 1: in Chile will begin under the Christian Democrats under phrase 612 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:55,560 Speaker 1: administration financed in large part by the Alliance Progress UM. 613 00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:59,640 Speaker 1: Also the nationalization of copper, which will be fully nationalized 614 00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:03,440 Speaker 1: under a ENDE in THEES, but it actually exists in 615 00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:07,480 Speaker 1: a state of so called negotiating nationalization under Frey, or 616 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:10,880 Speaker 1: what Fray would refer to as the Chileanization of copper, 617 00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:15,399 Speaker 1: in which Chile would take a very small fifty one, 618 00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:20,000 Speaker 1: you know percent controlling in the copper companies UM, but 619 00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:24,400 Speaker 1: would still have large the American copper companies Anaconda and 620 00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:28,880 Speaker 1: Kennicott specifically, would still be the ones responsible for running 621 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:34,400 Speaker 1: the operations themselves. That's that's an interesting, I I guess 622 00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:38,239 Speaker 1: weird historical thing because I know, okay, so like this. 623 00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:40,080 Speaker 1: There there have been a lot of times with the 624 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:42,480 Speaker 1: CIA has supported lander form, which is very weird, like 625 00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:45,920 Speaker 1: that they do it in Japan for example, and you 626 00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:47,520 Speaker 1: know it's seen as seen as one of these things. 627 00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:49,040 Speaker 1: It's like, okay, well we have to do lander Forum 628 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:51,680 Speaker 1: in order to like stop and stop an actual revolution 629 00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:53,399 Speaker 1: from happening. So we'll do a sort of capital's version 630 00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:55,799 Speaker 1: of it. It's interesting to me that Chile does it 631 00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:58,360 Speaker 1: because I feel like that that's not something that happened 632 00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:02,040 Speaker 1: in to the other Latin American states whe the CIA 633 00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:05,120 Speaker 1: gets involved. Um. Yeah, well it's also I mean, the 634 00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:08,520 Speaker 1: Alliance for Progress is official government policy. Um. You know, 635 00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:11,600 Speaker 1: Kenny will be the one that starts the alliance and 636 00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:16,920 Speaker 1: then it will continue into the LBJ administration following Kennedy's assassination. Um. 637 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:20,360 Speaker 1: And so that is um. And you're right that regionally, 638 00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:24,000 Speaker 1: the Appliance for Progress is largely a failure. There are, however, 639 00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:27,399 Speaker 1: a few successes, and Chile was at the time held 640 00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:29,839 Speaker 1: up as one of the successes and has somewhat been 641 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:33,400 Speaker 1: borne out as one of the successes insofar as it 642 00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:37,960 Speaker 1: is what initiates Theian reform in Chile. So so I 643 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:44,239 Speaker 1: guess So, okay, So what you're saying is that there 644 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:47,360 Speaker 1: are there there's there's there's a specific group of parties 645 00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:49,120 Speaker 1: at the u S backs at this period who are 646 00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:51,719 Speaker 1: trying to do this sort of who are trying to 647 00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:55,520 Speaker 1: do some kind of reform um like here, who are 648 00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:57,640 Speaker 1: trying to do this sort of like the class collaboration 649 00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:01,200 Speaker 1: reform to stave off revolution thing. And then I guess 650 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:05,520 Speaker 1: the like later policy becomes just do the do kind 651 00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:09,120 Speaker 1: of insurgency on behalf of the landowners. Yeah, I mean 652 00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:13,080 Speaker 1: the way the Phray. You know, as the phrase administration continues, 653 00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:17,759 Speaker 1: it becomes clear that his sort of reformist approaches is 654 00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:21,160 Speaker 1: simply not working. Um. One is just not working on 655 00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:24,439 Speaker 1: a macro economic level, right. Inflation is still happening, which 656 00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:28,080 Speaker 1: has sort of been the you know, enemy number one 657 00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:30,560 Speaker 1: of the Chilean economy for most of the twentieth century. Right, 658 00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:35,120 Speaker 1: most of the twentieth century in Chile is presidential administrations 659 00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:39,200 Speaker 1: and economic economists, economic advisors are all struggling to understand 660 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:43,560 Speaker 1: how to control inflation. Um and you know, Fray thinks 661 00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:46,600 Speaker 1: that they can figure it out via these sort of reforms, 662 00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:49,360 Speaker 1: via the gray in reform. Be it the sort of 663 00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:53,840 Speaker 1: chileanization of the great minding wealth of the country. Uh, 664 00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:57,760 Speaker 1: in terms of factory or industry level. They essentially proposed 665 00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:00,520 Speaker 1: this idea of sort of workers enterprises is that is 666 00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:03,879 Speaker 1: somewhat modeled off the Yugoslavian model, which was a much 667 00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:08,680 Speaker 1: more communitarian um approach. Right as you were saying earlier, 668 00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:12,160 Speaker 1: you know, the boss is still there. Workers do have 669 00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:15,440 Speaker 1: a stake and control of the enterprise, um, but private 670 00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:18,880 Speaker 1: property still exists, right, so I guess still the boss 671 00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:21,080 Speaker 1: like with that, Like how to what extent is it? 672 00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:25,000 Speaker 1: Like if you have this on a scale of like 673 00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:27,480 Speaker 1: on the one hand, on like the the extreme end, 674 00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:30,440 Speaker 1: you have there's like nothing or maybe workers can own 675 00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:32,160 Speaker 1: a share of a company, and on the other end 676 00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:34,880 Speaker 1: is like I don't know, like like a nineteen thirties 677 00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:39,960 Speaker 1: like like seven like anarchist commune in Spain, Like how 678 00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:42,759 Speaker 1: how how much control do they actually like I don't know, 679 00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:44,880 Speaker 1: like is this closer to something like the sort of 680 00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:48,160 Speaker 1: like German code code determination system? Like how close to 681 00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:50,239 Speaker 1: like Yugoslavia is this? Sorry, I'm trying to get a 682 00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:55,000 Speaker 1: sense of like yeah, this this is fascinating. In fact, 683 00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:57,359 Speaker 1: one of my sort of dream projects or sort of 684 00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:00,080 Speaker 1: dream archives to get into an old point of the 685 00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:04,160 Speaker 1: Yugoslavian archives or former Yugoslavian archives, because there is a 686 00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:08,080 Speaker 1: lot of collaboration taking place between the Yugoslavian left and 687 00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:11,719 Speaker 1: Chilians at this time. UM. The problem is that a 688 00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:14,560 Speaker 1: lot of this never really gets off the ground in practice. 689 00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:16,960 Speaker 1: It is a lot of sort of things that exist 690 00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:20,239 Speaker 1: on paper, reforms that are proposed, but reforms that never 691 00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:24,200 Speaker 1: really get implemented, which then has the effect of heightening 692 00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:28,680 Speaker 1: expectations but not delivering on the goods, which pushes people 693 00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:32,080 Speaker 1: further to the left right and pushes them to demand 694 00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:35,280 Speaker 1: a more radical solution, which they find in the nineteen 695 00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:39,319 Speaker 1: seventy campaign of Southern end Right. And this is what 696 00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:42,200 Speaker 1: really gets us to the to Ayenda's victory, which is 697 00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:46,440 Speaker 1: the sort of failures of the Free Administration to achieve 698 00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:51,200 Speaker 1: the sort of revolution in liberty that he promises. Also, 699 00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:54,799 Speaker 1: the near the end of the Free Administration, there's a 700 00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:57,400 Speaker 1: massacre that takes place in the South of Chile in 701 00:40:57,480 --> 00:41:02,600 Speaker 1: part the month Um that really um solidifies or if 702 00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:06,480 Speaker 1: you will, sort of the final push um or loss 703 00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:09,520 Speaker 1: of legitimacy for the Free Administration, as well as a 704 00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:14,799 Speaker 1: pushing the sort of more popular classes to um be 705 00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:17,560 Speaker 1: opposed to the Free Administration, be opposed to sort of 706 00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:22,439 Speaker 1: the Christian democratic message of reformantism, and decides to sort 707 00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:26,000 Speaker 1: of give revolution a chance. Uh. And it's into that 708 00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:31,920 Speaker 1: moment that Salvador Allende reforms um. The coalition that you know, 709 00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:34,880 Speaker 1: the original coalition that he runs on was was referred 710 00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:37,560 Speaker 1: to as the frapp UM. He forms a sort of 711 00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:40,920 Speaker 1: new coalition in the lead up to the nineteen seventy election, 712 00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:43,879 Speaker 1: which would be the Popular Unity Coalition uh. And it's 713 00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:47,799 Speaker 1: a coalition of leftist parties, primarily the Socialists, of which 714 00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:51,319 Speaker 1: i END is a member, and the Communists. And here 715 00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:54,279 Speaker 1: it's important to remember in the Chilean case that the 716 00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:58,600 Speaker 1: Socialists are actually to the left of the Communists. The 717 00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:04,080 Speaker 1: Communists are a much more um reserved approach to revolution, 718 00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:08,479 Speaker 1: and by which I mean they're very much um going 719 00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:10,720 Speaker 1: to sort of have the you know, they're they're holding 720 00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:13,719 Speaker 1: the party line right there behold into the common tern right. 721 00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:16,040 Speaker 1: But they are also very much in line with the 722 00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:30,239 Speaker 1: I ends, with the INDs view of legislating socialism. That's 723 00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:32,759 Speaker 1: I guess another interesting aspect of this, because like that's 724 00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:35,000 Speaker 1: something I think also doesn't get discussed very much, which 725 00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:39,120 Speaker 1: is this period where like a lot of the like 726 00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:42,040 Speaker 1: that that was the party discipline being opposed from Moscow 727 00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:45,280 Speaker 1: for like a lot of this period like is explicitly 728 00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:48,040 Speaker 1: telling them, not like explicitly saying don't do a revolution 729 00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:53,080 Speaker 1: like hold and stabilize the situation. Um is that the case, 730 00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:57,080 Speaker 1: like so I because I I okay, this is this 731 00:42:57,080 --> 00:42:59,400 Speaker 1: is again going back to me knowing Italy but I 732 00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:04,160 Speaker 1: know um Chile. That is that something like how how 733 00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:06,279 Speaker 1: long has that been? Policy? Frow is? Is that like 734 00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:09,839 Speaker 1: an old is that old popular front like stuff from them? 735 00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:12,680 Speaker 1: Or is this is has it like because I know, 736 00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:14,319 Speaker 1: like like the U S policity Like so it's just 737 00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:17,800 Speaker 1: like the muscle line flips back and forth somewhat randomly 738 00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:21,920 Speaker 1: depending on like what it's going, doesn't right, It flips 739 00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:25,080 Speaker 1: a lot, especially in that ninety period. And and you know, 740 00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:27,640 Speaker 1: once they established the idea of the Popular Front, that 741 00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:31,319 Speaker 1: sort of does become the line. The big change takes 742 00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:34,600 Speaker 1: place in seven. Um, there is a meeting of the 743 00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:37,359 Speaker 1: Common Turn in nineteen fifty seven, and that's when the 744 00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:42,520 Speaker 1: idea of individual national roads to socialism becomes the official 745 00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:45,560 Speaker 1: party line of the Common Tern And that is what 746 00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:49,719 Speaker 1: then authorizes communist parties across the world to seek their 747 00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:52,719 Speaker 1: own routes to socialism. Right, so it no longer has 748 00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:56,600 Speaker 1: to be a Leninist insurrectional model. It no longer has 749 00:43:56,640 --> 00:44:00,600 Speaker 1: to be a Cuban revolutionary model, UM, it be its own, 750 00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:06,799 Speaker 1: so that when Allende proposes this pluralist way of reaching socialism, 751 00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:10,919 Speaker 1: that's what the communists will link to, um and and 752 00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:13,200 Speaker 1: really that's what they'll hitch their wagon too. And we 753 00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:17,520 Speaker 1: will tow that line throughout the three years, throughout the 754 00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:21,120 Speaker 1: thousand days of the end government, which will then ultimately 755 00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:23,719 Speaker 1: put them into conflict with the left wing of the 756 00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:28,120 Speaker 1: Socialist Party, which is pushing for a much more radical um, 757 00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:30,560 Speaker 1: a radical ship. And that's really the sort of context 758 00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:33,919 Speaker 1: that the cordon is emerge out of in nineteen seventy two, 759 00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:39,080 Speaker 1: is the sort of growing factionalism, growing secretary sectarianism within 760 00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:45,640 Speaker 1: the ruling coalition of the Popular Unity. Yeah, and I 761 00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:47,920 Speaker 1: guess this this is already going a lot of some 762 00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:52,680 Speaker 1: of the way to explaining why this looks different than 763 00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:55,960 Speaker 1: a lot of the other sort of like a lot 764 00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:58,520 Speaker 1: of the other sort of socialist coalition governments you see 765 00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:01,799 Speaker 1: around the world. I mean, yeah, I mean partially just yeah, 766 00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:05,239 Speaker 1: the influence of Yugoslavia is fascinating to me because I 767 00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:07,839 Speaker 1: mean that explained, that explains so much, right, Like that, 768 00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:10,160 Speaker 1: that explains why there's a sort of democratic component to 769 00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:13,560 Speaker 1: it even in even in the sort of reformist periods, 770 00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:16,279 Speaker 1: and it explains why the expectation is that and not 771 00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:18,400 Speaker 1: the sort of like even not even like like Soviet 772 00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:21,120 Speaker 1: style nationalization absolutely does not look like that. Yeah, so 773 00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:24,520 Speaker 1: you're you're right that you know that these these multifaceted, 774 00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:29,799 Speaker 1: multi layer influences globally as well as locally within Chile 775 00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:33,719 Speaker 1: as well as regionally, UM produced something that is the 776 00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:39,719 Speaker 1: first time that UM so, for example, in victory, is 777 00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:42,920 Speaker 1: the first time that an openly Marxist candidate will be 778 00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:49,080 Speaker 1: elected president of the nation, elected democratically in a free 779 00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:53,840 Speaker 1: and fair election that is not contested UM or anything 780 00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:56,719 Speaker 1: like that. Now that said, he wins by plurality, he 781 00:45:56,760 --> 00:46:00,759 Speaker 1: only wins by about in the thirty percent range UM. Now, 782 00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:04,480 Speaker 1: historically in Chile, a plurality victory is not a problem 783 00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:08,000 Speaker 1: because you demand it to the Congress, and the Congress 784 00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:12,400 Speaker 1: typically will just rubber stamp the victory I end. However, 785 00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:16,120 Speaker 1: you know, there's a lot of apprehension about what he 786 00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:19,680 Speaker 1: means for the country, what he means for the sort 787 00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:22,080 Speaker 1: of landed deletes, what he means for the sort of 788 00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:26,719 Speaker 1: oligarchs that control the grand monopolies in Chile. Uh, and 789 00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:28,920 Speaker 1: so there is a lot of tension. Well, this is 790 00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:34,080 Speaker 1: also then where the actions the CIA backfire. UM. So 791 00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:37,480 Speaker 1: the work of the National Security Archive has done great 792 00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:40,719 Speaker 1: work for uncovering the sort of two track plan that 793 00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:44,400 Speaker 1: Nixon and Kissinger have for subverting the election of A 794 00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:47,560 Speaker 1: and A and then ultimately preventing him from assuming power. 795 00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:50,600 Speaker 1: And part of those tracks was to sort of foment 796 00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:54,960 Speaker 1: some sort of crisis UH. And so the crisis that 797 00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:59,759 Speaker 1: they attempt to foment involves General Renee Schneider, and it 798 00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:03,279 Speaker 1: is the attempt is that they're going to kidnap him 799 00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:06,840 Speaker 1: and hold him hostage UM and use that as a 800 00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:09,840 Speaker 1: way to prevent Allende from coming to power. Well, the 801 00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:13,520 Speaker 1: problem is that goes horribly wrong. The people that are 802 00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:18,399 Speaker 1: carrying out to kidnapping are clearly unprepared for what happens. UM. 803 00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:22,080 Speaker 1: Things can go haywire and Schneider is assassinated, he's shot 804 00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:28,120 Speaker 1: UM accidentally and player dies uh. And the problem then becomes, 805 00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:30,680 Speaker 1: you know, the nation is horrified, The Chilean nation is 806 00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:34,840 Speaker 1: horrified at this UM took place. And as a result, 807 00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:38,839 Speaker 1: then UM ranks are closed around Allende and it has 808 00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:43,200 Speaker 1: decided that they will approve his um candidacy, his election, 809 00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:46,560 Speaker 1: and that he will be affirmed as the president um. 810 00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:49,120 Speaker 1: And you know, also what's happening in the background during 811 00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:51,760 Speaker 1: the election and during the lead up to that vote 812 00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:55,120 Speaker 1: is that the Popular Unity coalition has its program. You know, 813 00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:58,239 Speaker 1: what we would think of as a campaign um, sort 814 00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:01,759 Speaker 1: of platform um, but part of a platform in the 815 00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:03,759 Speaker 1: popul Unities case was what they referred to as the 816 00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:07,719 Speaker 1: sort of basic agreement between the coalition and the both 817 00:48:07,719 --> 00:48:10,279 Speaker 1: the people of Chile but also the political system, which 818 00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:12,359 Speaker 1: in this basic agreement is sort of what we've been 819 00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:15,880 Speaker 1: discussing this whole time, which is that end would not 820 00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:22,080 Speaker 1: change fundamentally the political system. Right. Any sort of nationalizations, 821 00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:26,279 Speaker 1: any sort of economic restructuring that they would achieve or 822 00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:30,880 Speaker 1: that they would try to achieve in Chile would be taken, 823 00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:33,719 Speaker 1: would take place, would be used or one through the 824 00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:38,040 Speaker 1: halls of Congress. Right, everything would be legislated. Everything would 825 00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:43,759 Speaker 1: still be remain um the sort of Chilean government as normal. Right. 826 00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:46,360 Speaker 1: This is where you get all ends famous phrase that 827 00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:48,360 Speaker 1: the revolution is going to be with infoto us and 828 00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:53,239 Speaker 1: bainto right, with meat pies and red wine um, which means, 829 00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:55,839 Speaker 1: you know, It's essentially not going to be a revolution 830 00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:59,360 Speaker 1: of deprivation, right, It's not going to be a revolution 831 00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:03,799 Speaker 1: that fundamentally changes the structures of everyday life in Chile. 832 00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:08,720 Speaker 1: This has when it could happen here. Join us tomorrow 833 00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:11,359 Speaker 1: for part two of this interview, where we walk through 834 00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:15,560 Speaker 1: the Chilean Revolution, the Cordones, and their lasting ImpACTA in society. 835 00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:17,759 Speaker 1: If you want to find more of Nicholas's work, he 836 00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:19,440 Speaker 1: has an article coming out in the next week or 837 00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:21,759 Speaker 1: so and then made by History section of the Washington 838 00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:25,120 Speaker 1: Post connecting the revolutionary period and the broader struggle for 839 00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:28,240 Speaker 1: a dignified life to the modern inclusion of social rights 840 00:49:28,360 --> 00:49:31,839 Speaker 1: in the proposed new post uprising Chilean constitution. You can 841 00:49:31,880 --> 00:49:34,440 Speaker 1: find more of us that happened here, pond on Twitter, Instagram. 842 00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:37,520 Speaker 1: And we have two new podcasts coming out. The first 843 00:49:37,560 --> 00:49:40,600 Speaker 1: is ghost Church, hosted by the inimitable Jamie Loftus. It's 844 00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:43,400 Speaker 1: a it's a deep look at the historical contemporary practice 845 00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:47,680 Speaker 1: of spiritualism and mediums who talked to ghosts. It is wonderful. 846 00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:49,680 Speaker 1: Jamie is one of the best podcasters ever do it 847 00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:52,200 Speaker 1: and the first episode is out right now. You can 848 00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:55,799 Speaker 1: find Ghost Church wherever find podcasts are distributed. Second on 849 00:49:55,920 --> 00:49:58,280 Speaker 1: May Day, which is which is this Sunday, May one, 850 00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:01,000 Speaker 1: the first episode of the Great Margaret Enjoys new podcast, 851 00:50:01,040 --> 00:50:03,840 Speaker 1: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is dropping. It's about, 852 00:50:04,040 --> 00:50:07,320 Speaker 1: well what the title says, it's the coolest revolutionaries, desperadoes 853 00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:09,760 Speaker 1: and ordinary people in the right place and right time 854 00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:13,200 Speaker 1: doing extremely cool stuff. And it's happening every Monday and 855 00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:15,759 Speaker 1: Wednesday from here on out. So go give it. Listen 856 00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:17,080 Speaker 1: to the shops on May Day. It is going to 857 00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:19,120 Speaker 1: be great, and yeah, it is. It is. It is 858 00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:21,920 Speaker 1: a great time to be podcasting. There are there are 859 00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:25,239 Speaker 1: many podcasts, so go listen to them now after you're 860 00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:31,160 Speaker 1: done with this one. It could happen here as a 861 00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:34,000 Speaker 1: production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool 862 00:50:34,080 --> 00:50:36,759 Speaker 1: Zone Media, visit our website cool zone media dot com, 863 00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:38,600 Speaker 1: or check us out on the I Heart Radio app, 864 00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:42,000 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 865 00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:44,719 Speaker 1: find sources for It could Happen here, updated monthly at 866 00:50:44,719 --> 00:50:48,000 Speaker 1: cool zone Media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.