1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:03,920 Speaker 1: The cheerleaders at a gym in Buffalo have been recording 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: themselves to make a new documentary where the news reporters, 3 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:13,160 Speaker 1: because one year ago a mass shooting changed their lives. 4 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: He just walked around shot all the black people. The 5 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:18,440 Speaker 1: cheer squad, most of whom are black, had to figure 6 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 1: out how to go on and how to compete. I 7 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: wanted to win for them more than anything this season. 8 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 1: Listen to the embedded podcast from NPR within the iHeartRadio app, 9 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Carol Fisher and 10 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. It's Las Vegas, 11 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:40,200 Speaker 1: it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time to find 12 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:44,560 Speaker 1: a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who were felt 13 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 1: to be eligible bachelors. One of them was of the 14 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:53,239 Speaker 1: Baron bat On paper, he was perfect, but in reality, 15 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 1: this guy's a wacko. He shouted to the point went unconscious. 16 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: I would call him and I would say, I know 17 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: you killed my sister. You can listen to The girl 18 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you 19 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:11,880 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. LA is expansive. There's nearly ten million 20 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:14,759 Speaker 1: people living here and it comes with a lot of noise, 21 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 1: but if you tune those sounds out and listen close, 22 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 1: you'll hear the real LA. What a be marggim I'm 23 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:30,920 Speaker 1: going to be a father? Yes You're feeling This a 24 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:34,319 Speaker 1: fiction podcast mixtape about love. Listen to it on the 25 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:38,440 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast 26 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:42,560 Speaker 1: This is the unbelievable but true story of George Ramis. 27 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 1: He was an eccentric and genius lawyer who figured out 28 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:49,280 Speaker 1: how to game the system during Prohibition. Ramis is the 29 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 1: biggest man in the business, but George Ramis's wild existence 30 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 1: took a dark and shocking turn, leading to betrayal, revenge, 31 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 1: and one of the most sensational murder trials in American history. 32 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 1: Listen to Remus the Mad Bootleg King every Tuesday on 33 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 34 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 1: After spending for days listening to Jake Wagner testify against 35 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 1: his older brother George Jurors, today heard from both boys mother, 36 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:26,360 Speaker 1: Angela Wagner. She speaks of her husband and her son's 37 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 1: in a very loving manner. She's really presenting today as 38 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 1: a sweet, loving mother. She's there to save her life, 39 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:43,680 Speaker 1: but also the lives of her family. Lord knows how 40 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 1: many people that had actually stolen from it. Sounds like 41 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 1: the Old West because they had even gotten involvement poaching 42 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 1: and cattle rustling. You can have sympathy for somebody, but 43 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:57,120 Speaker 1: when you take part in killing eight people, sorry, that 44 00:02:57,200 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 1: all goes out the window. This is the piked to massacre. 45 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 1: Returned to Pike County season four, episode nineteen, Angela takes 46 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 1: the stand. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at Katie 47 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 1: Studios with Stephanie Laidicker and Jeff Shane. It's important to 48 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 1: note that George Wagner, the fourth has pleaded not guilty 49 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 1: and maintained he did not kill anyone. His father, Billy Wagner, 50 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 1: whose trial is upcoming, has also pleaded not guilty to 51 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:34,520 Speaker 1: all charges. We've heard testimony from Jake Wagner about his 52 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 1: role in the crimes against the Rodin, Manly and Gilly families. 53 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 1: Today we're hearing from another pivotal witness for the prosecution, 54 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 1: and accu's killer comes face to face with his mother 55 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:49,119 Speaker 1: for the first time since both were arrested four years ago. 56 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 1: Jurors today heard from both boys mother Angela Wagner, looking 57 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 1: somewhat frail and wearing a drab jail uniform. The fifty 58 00:03:56,560 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 1: two year old Wagner took the stand around ten fifteen 59 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 1: this morning. Wearing a drab black and white jail uniform. 60 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: Angela Wagner walks into the courtroom. James Pilcher, longtime investigative 61 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 1: reporter from Cincinnati now at Local twelve, was there when 62 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:15,600 Speaker 1: Angela arrived at court. So one thing that her appearance 63 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:17,919 Speaker 1: was much different than in the past. Her hair was 64 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 1: much longer. One of the other interesting details is that 65 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 1: she was shackled, much like her son was, but the 66 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 1: change were much lighter, so they made a much different 67 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:29,159 Speaker 1: noise on the floor and she walked by, it was 68 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 1: more like a clank clank, clink rather than clank clank clank. 69 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:36,160 Speaker 1: Here's Stephanie, who was also in the courtroom during Angela 70 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:40,120 Speaker 1: Wagner's testimony. You can literally hear her with her shackles 71 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 1: coming down the hallway, which was such an eerie sound. 72 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 1: James Pilcher describes the atmosphere in the courtroom that day. 73 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 1: The courtroom, you could have heard a pin drop jak. 74 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:53,000 Speaker 1: It wasn't like that. But when we're waiting for Angela, 75 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 1: for the mother of the suspect who's on trial. It 76 00:04:56,160 --> 00:05:00,720 Speaker 1: was definitely quiet because everybody has always thought that she 77 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:03,279 Speaker 1: was the mastermind behind all of this, and I think 78 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 1: that was one thing that they were anticipating coming out. 79 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 1: And there was also the tension of knowing a mother 80 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:10,800 Speaker 1: and her son were going to see each other for 81 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:14,160 Speaker 1: the first time with her testifying against him. So there 82 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:17,160 Speaker 1: was a lot of tension and very very quiet in 83 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 1: that courtroom when we're waiting for her to take the stand. 84 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 1: When she sat down, she didn't even look at George, 85 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 1: and George pretty much looked like he had his eyes 86 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 1: down the entire time. Angela Wagner chose to opt out 87 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 1: of having her testimony recorded. Therefore, the only people who 88 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:36,480 Speaker 1: heard her testimony were the jury, the judge, the respective attorneys, 89 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 1: and the family and media that were present in the courtroom. 90 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 1: Here's Jeff speaking with Angeanette Levy, investigative reporter and host 91 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 1: for Law and Crime. They opted out because they could. 92 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 1: I thought it was completely ridiculous. You're a cooperating witness, 93 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:56,080 Speaker 1: you're convicted, you should be forced to get up there 94 00:05:56,560 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 1: and face the music on camera. Did all of these 95 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:04,839 Speaker 1: Rodent family members got up there and buried their souls 96 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 1: and were recorded. And you know, why shouldn't he and 97 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 1: Angela have to do the same. Does the journy know 98 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 1: who opts in and opts out? No, I don't believe so, 99 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 1: because the bailiff would go over and tell the photographer 100 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:22,280 Speaker 1: or tell members of the media who opted and who 101 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 1: opted out. Here's forensic medical examiner Joseph Scott Morgan. It's 102 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:32,480 Speaker 1: so very easy to forget the Rodents, and I guess 103 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 1: on a spiritual level of since this all kind of 104 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:39,159 Speaker 1: kicked off, I've always imagined every single member of that 105 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:42,920 Speaker 1: family in a spiritual form, sitting on the front row 106 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:47,040 Speaker 1: watching seeing if everyone to receive any level of justice, 107 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 1: and this is part of that justice. These people whose poor, 108 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: poor victims. They deserve to have each individual story told 109 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 1: when it comes to their deaths. This is a mass murder. 110 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 1: You know, their lives ended it at the end of 111 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 1: the musleable weapon and cut short, every single one of them, 112 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 1: every sing they still be here with us today, I 113 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 1: have no doubt, you know, and they deserved their due. 114 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 1: Prosecutor Angie Kneppa begins her opening remarks for the day, 115 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 1: we said that if anyone else came forward and could 116 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 1: tell us something that was consistent with what we had 117 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 1: just heard, that would do two things for us, and 118 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 1: it would just be stronger corroborating evidence that another member 119 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 1: of the Wagner family was giving us the same information 120 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 1: without knowing exactly what Jake had said. Right, And that 121 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 1: person that came forward was Angela Wagner. Kneppa comes right 122 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:50,280 Speaker 1: out of the gate with the question everyone has been 123 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 1: wondering about. One thing that really stuck out to me 124 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 1: was they approached her much differently than they ended ying. 125 00:07:57,080 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 1: At the very very beginning, at the very open of 126 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 1: her testimony, they ask a point blank, are you guilty 127 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 1: of taking part in these murders? Yes? Did you help 128 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 1: plan them? Yes? Did you help prepare for it? Yes? 129 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 1: Did you aid in a bet? Yes? Who else is 130 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 1: took part? My husband, Billy, my son is George, and Jake. 131 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 1: So suffice it to say, all four of you were 132 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 1: involved in these homicides that night, Yes, she was. At 133 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 1: the point blank, are you guilty of aggravated murder? She said, yes, 134 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 1: we all are. That was a really key moment. Here's 135 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:40,200 Speaker 1: Mike Allen, attorney and legal analyst who's been following the 136 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:43,200 Speaker 1: case from the beginning. I think the fact that Angie 137 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:48,040 Speaker 1: Kaneppa asked the question are you guilty and the answer 138 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:52,480 Speaker 1: from Angela was yes. That's a big part of her testimony, 139 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:56,440 Speaker 1: and I think just getting that out up front, let's 140 00:08:56,480 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 1: the jury know that, you know, she's not messing around here, 141 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:03,439 Speaker 1: and she's admitting to her involvement in it. Not necessarily 142 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:06,080 Speaker 1: fire any weapons, but she was in it up to 143 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 1: her neck, and that was established early on in her testimony. 144 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 1: Special Prosecutor Kneppa asked Angela Wagner about her childhood. Here 145 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 1: again Stephanie Angela said, this is the first time I 146 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 1: had heard this. She has sort of this messy relationship 147 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:26,959 Speaker 1: with her own father because she was feuding with him 148 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 1: a bit about having sex. Then she goes to the 149 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:37,240 Speaker 1: military and is sexually assaulted, leaves there and gets married 150 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:41,520 Speaker 1: very quickly with Billy, And she speaks of frankly Billy 151 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:45,200 Speaker 1: and her grand babies and her son's in a very 152 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 1: loving manner. You know, she's really presenting today as a sweet, 153 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:56,839 Speaker 1: loving mother. On the stand, Angela isn't quite what we expected. 154 00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 1: She's soft spoken and as a bit of a baby talker, 155 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 1: and instantly I was expecting a much bigger presence. Here's 156 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:07,840 Speaker 1: Jeff and Angeanette. What do you make of that? Do 157 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:10,199 Speaker 1: you think that's an act or do you think that 158 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 1: she's kind of changed in jail. I think she was 159 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 1: probably a nervous b doesn't want to be there. She 160 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 1: may be feeling badly about throwing her son under the bus, 161 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:25,480 Speaker 1: implicating him in these homicides. But at the same time, 162 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 1: I think that she's a master manipulator. I think she's 163 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:32,080 Speaker 1: good at playing a role when she has to. So 164 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 1: you don't really buy it. I mean I don't buy 165 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 1: the meat mild mannered part of it. I think maybe 166 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 1: in that instance that was her, But she's just quiet 167 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 1: and soft spoken. Obviously, that's not what we've heard from 168 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 1: Angela Wagner on the wire taps, or what we heard 169 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 1: about Angela Wagner from Tabitha's testimony or Elizabeth Armer's testimony. 170 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 1: As we've talked about incessantly, she's been this monster in 171 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:01,320 Speaker 1: our minds in certainly in mind this is the big 172 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:03,720 Speaker 1: bad wolf, right, this is her day in court, and 173 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:07,959 Speaker 1: this is the monster we've been talking about, and we 174 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 1: know that is true. She's admitted it. We've heard countless 175 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 1: stories about it. I'm told it's coming. We're going to 176 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:18,920 Speaker 1: see the crack in her very soon. But right now, 177 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 1: it's kind of like watching a movie in a way. 178 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:26,200 Speaker 1: It's almost as though, what's that movie? Primal Fear? And 179 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 1: Edward Norton has sort of an interesting dialect and he 180 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:32,960 Speaker 1: has mannerisms that are very specific. And then at the 181 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 1: very end when he's proven to be innocent and you 182 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 1: find out that he's, ah, I was lying the whole time, 183 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:43,480 Speaker 1: and he doesn't have an accent. He was just pretending 184 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 1: to be this completely different person. And it feels like 185 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 1: she's that right now, And I have to be honest 186 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:52,439 Speaker 1: with you, it's very believable. You know, we've been tracking 187 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 1: this case so closely, and then you look at jurors 188 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 1: and you have to hope they're not buying it. Here again, 189 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:03,439 Speaker 1: James Felcher, the tuxtaposition between what she heard on tape 190 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:07,080 Speaker 1: and what she presented in person was much much different, 191 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:12,400 Speaker 1: much more low key, much calmer, much more meek. As 192 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:19,080 Speaker 1: for her demeanor, again, she's there to save her life, 193 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:21,960 Speaker 1: but also the lives of her family as part of 194 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 1: her plea deal. So she obviously is going to be 195 00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:26,440 Speaker 1: on her best behavior, so I think that was part 196 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 1: of it. But I also think part of it she 197 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 1: was probably on her meds and she admitted that. During 198 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 1: cross examination, Prosecutor Kneppa asked Angela Wagner about when Jake 199 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:43,960 Speaker 1: and George were children. Wagner testifies that she didn't think 200 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 1: George and Jake were getting the one on one attention 201 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 1: they needed at public school, so she and Billy decided 202 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:52,559 Speaker 1: to homeschool them, and they began by interrogating her about 203 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 1: how she raised Jake and George, explaining that she homeschooled 204 00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:58,560 Speaker 1: them both until high school while their father, Billy Wagner, 205 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 1: allegedly taught them how to steal from trucks and trailers. 206 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:06,080 Speaker 1: There's obviously a lack of socialization there. I mean, these 207 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 1: kids were raised and when I say kids, Jake and 208 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:13,559 Speaker 1: George and this kind of insular upbringing where they were 209 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:17,320 Speaker 1: homeschooled and didn't really have a lot of exposure to 210 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 1: the outside world. Of course, they knew people outside of 211 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 1: their family, but not many. They didn't really have a 212 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:26,400 Speaker 1: lot of friends outside of you know, people who worked 213 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:29,079 Speaker 1: at the Flying w and things like that. So they 214 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:33,560 Speaker 1: didn't have a quote unquote normal childhood, and there's questions 215 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 1: about the curriculum. They were taught that they needed to 216 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:40,800 Speaker 1: be there a deferential and polite, not to act up 217 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 1: things like that. But it was almost in a way 218 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:46,640 Speaker 1: that they were taught these things so that they could 219 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:49,560 Speaker 1: get away with crimes and not necessarily so they could 220 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 1: be good human beings. We heard about some of this 221 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:57,320 Speaker 1: education in Jake's testimony. Angela Wagner's testimony expands it on 222 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:00,440 Speaker 1: the family dynamic. She speaks about how the only would 223 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 1: set fires to their properties and file insurance claims. That 224 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 1: was one thing that the prosecution did too, and they 225 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:11,040 Speaker 1: did it with Jake, but they did it more with Angela, 226 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 1: and that is they clearly laid out how Angela was 227 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 1: involved and planned several criminal acts leading up to all 228 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 1: of this, including the arsons. They rebuilt the house again 229 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 1: up there on Frederica's property, and Fredrika said, well, I'm 230 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 1: going to sell the property and you're not going to 231 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 1: really be compensated for the house. And at that point 232 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 1: Angela said, I don't want anybody living this dream house 233 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 1: that we built with our own bare hands. So they 234 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 1: burned it down for the insurance money, and they walked 235 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:45,600 Speaker 1: through all of that. It's interesting because the way Knappa 236 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:48,680 Speaker 1: did this was chronological, and Angela's towards the end of 237 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 1: this trial, and so it's almost like she's confirming all 238 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:55,040 Speaker 1: the things that we've heard. They talked about the insurance 239 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 1: for the fires, all of these pieces that we've heard about. 240 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 1: Angela's like, yes, that happened, Yes, that happened, Yes, that happened. 241 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 1: What do you make of that? I think miss Kneppa 242 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:07,359 Speaker 1: was doing that on purpose to show that the testimony, 243 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 1: Angela's testimony died with the physical evidence in the case. 244 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 1: And I think it was a good strategy because it 245 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:19,760 Speaker 1: did line up in her testimony, I mean pretty solidly. 246 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 1: So I think that was a good strategy. And again, 247 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:26,640 Speaker 1: as I said, I think Angela came off as pretty credible. 248 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 1: The defense lean did on these planned arsons during cross examination. 249 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 1: Here's James Pilcher followed by Stephanie. The defense started its 250 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 1: cross examination by leaning into Angela's previous criminal acts, including 251 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:44,680 Speaker 1: Arson's for insurance money, shoplifting, and helping steal diesel fuel 252 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 1: and truckloads of goods. I think it is going to 253 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 1: prove to be very relevant they're painting a picture of her. 254 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 1: Although she was very sweet and cute all day. At 255 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 1: the very end cross examination happened, and that was a 256 00:15:56,480 --> 00:16:00,040 Speaker 1: jaw dropper because George's defense attorney, if it's on a 257 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 1: a pretty good display and kind of talked us through 258 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 1: Angela's early years and then they start getting into where 259 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:10,360 Speaker 1: she lives and how they ended up at the house 260 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 1: in the end that she lived, which was pugs. What 261 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 1: he was painting the picture for was that, Yeah, she 262 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:21,720 Speaker 1: has in fact burned down by arson. Three houses. She 263 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:23,960 Speaker 1: had to admit to that today in the court of law. 264 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 1: He was like, this house was very expensive. How did 265 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:28,600 Speaker 1: you get the money for this house? Oh? Wait, didn't 266 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:32,800 Speaker 1: the house before this house? What happened to that house? Oh, 267 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 1: it burnt down, But how did you get the money 268 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:39,160 Speaker 1: for that house? Oh? The house before that, Oh that 269 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:42,120 Speaker 1: one burned down. So three houses and I think a 270 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 1: garage all burnt down. You got insurance money for all 271 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 1: of them. On cross examination, the defense asks Angela Wagner 272 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:58,200 Speaker 1: if Jake and George were involved in the arsons. Angela's response, yes, 273 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 1: but who gives a damn? By the way, when all 274 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 1: these arsons were happening George was. One time he was sixteen, 275 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 1: one time George was fifteen. Like George was in the 276 00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 1: home during these shenanigans. Angela also testified about other crimes 277 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 1: she's committed with Billy in front of the boys, including 278 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:20,920 Speaker 1: pill running. Prosecutor Kneppa asks Angela Wagner if she's ever 279 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:25,720 Speaker 1: stolen fuel, before Angela responds yes, she was the lookout. 280 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:28,840 Speaker 1: Angela also testified that Billy taught the boys had a 281 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 1: siphon fuel. I think that they see themselves as engaging 282 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:38,359 Speaker 1: in and just fibble outlawry if you if you will 283 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 1: that you know the government is all bad. We're really 284 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:46,400 Speaker 1: representative of the working people you know here in this community. 285 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:49,919 Speaker 1: You know it's cliche, but you know our family has 286 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:52,960 Speaker 1: been here for generations. We know we don't know what 287 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:55,119 Speaker 1: the real story is here. We know that you're not 288 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:57,720 Speaker 1: going to get ahead in this world and this hardscrab 289 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:00,359 Speaker 1: a life that we're leading. You're not going to ahead 290 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 1: in this world unless you you still going to some 291 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 1: hard working families home or the farm and robbing them, 292 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 1: are burglarizing and taking what is not theirs and being 293 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 1: able to justify it that it's you know, it's a 294 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 1: real Lord of the Flies moment and its survival of 295 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:20,920 Speaker 1: of fittists. And they'd done that. You know, Lord knows 296 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:24,000 Speaker 1: how many people that had actually stolen from in that community. 297 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 1: You know, you you think about things just uh, you know, 298 00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:31,480 Speaker 1: two by fours and wood paneling and you know, going 299 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:35,119 Speaker 1: out to job sites and essentially robbing hard working people 300 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:37,119 Speaker 1: of the things that they need to get by on. 301 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 1: It sounds like the Old West because they had even 302 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:43,600 Speaker 1: gotten involved in poaching and cattle rustling of all things, 303 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 1: you know, student livestock. So that's an operation. That's that's 304 00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:53,240 Speaker 1: not a one man operation, is it. That's that's that's 305 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:55,760 Speaker 1: a lot of work. It's not like little Jake is 306 00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:59,080 Speaker 1: just running around doing all of this stuff with this 307 00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:02,760 Speaker 1: crazy fall you gotta have multiple hands on the wheel here. 308 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 1: And I think that you know, this goes to George 309 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:09,480 Speaker 1: and this this thievery, this you know, nefarious behavior. Is 310 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:12,159 Speaker 1: it's like a virus. I think that just it spreads 311 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 1: like wildfire through a family because you know it's the 312 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 1: children bear witnessed it when they're growing up in the 313 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:20,680 Speaker 1: home and they know that this is just part of 314 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:22,639 Speaker 1: the life that they're involved in it. And you know, 315 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 1: what it was probably normal for them to go and 316 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:29,600 Speaker 1: take food out of people's mouths. There's a question of 317 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 1: whether this kind of testimony about Jake and George's upbringing 318 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:37,119 Speaker 1: is making them sympathetic to the jury. Here again Joseph Morgan, 319 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 1: followed by Angelinette Levy for George appoint in his life 320 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 1: that he was at he was still going to be 321 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:46,480 Speaker 1: bullied by Billy and potentially by Angela as well. I 322 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 1: think Angela is probably chief amongst centers here. He just 323 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:52,159 Speaker 1: couldn't get out of his own way. And so I 324 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:56,640 Speaker 1: guess if if the jury can take away some bit 325 00:19:56,640 --> 00:20:00,159 Speaker 1: of sympathy for George as he's you know, he was 326 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:03,240 Speaker 1: his own trial and the chore else, I guess that's 327 00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:05,960 Speaker 1: that's probably where it would come from. There may have 328 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 1: been a little bit of sympathy, but I don't think 329 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:10,439 Speaker 1: there was a whole lot. I mean, you can have 330 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:13,600 Speaker 1: sympathy for somebody, but when you take part in killing 331 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:16,919 Speaker 1: eight people, sorry, that all goes out the window. It 332 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:23,359 Speaker 1: might be an explanation, but it doesn't excuse it. We're 333 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:29,400 Speaker 1: going to take a break. We'll be back in a moment. Oh, 334 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:33,560 Speaker 1: I'm Carol Fisher and I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. 335 00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:36,640 Speaker 1: Back in the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas, a few 336 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:40,640 Speaker 1: of us dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob. 337 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:46,879 Speaker 1: He spoke several languages, he did medical missionary work, and 338 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:51,680 Speaker 1: he was Jewish. He was perfect on paper. But he wasn't. 339 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:56,680 Speaker 1: He really wasn't. He shouted into the point she went unconscious. 340 00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 1: Bob could lie about anything, only takes the one time 341 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:05,920 Speaker 1: when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, us girlfriends 342 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:08,520 Speaker 1: know how to fight back. I wanted him to pay 343 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 1: for his crime. He needed to be put to justice. 344 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:13,399 Speaker 1: I'll be honest with you. If I saw him right now, 345 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:15,719 Speaker 1: I'd spit on him. I would call him and I 346 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 1: would say, I know you killed my sister. I will 347 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:21,600 Speaker 1: always hound you and haunt you. You can listen to 348 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 1: The girl Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or 349 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. They say history is written 350 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 1: by the victors, but you know what they've left out 351 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 1: A hell of a lot of juicy stuff. Take Abe 352 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 1: Lincoln's assassination. Did you know a young couple was sitting 353 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:45,240 Speaker 1: right next to him when he was shot? It haunted 354 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:49,560 Speaker 1: the husband so much he later murdered his wife. Ah, 355 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:52,800 Speaker 1: we all know who invented that, right, and we'll think again. 356 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 1: Truth is Alexander Graham. Bell stole the idea for the 357 00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:59,919 Speaker 1: telephone and then claimed it as his own. For every 358 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:03,880 Speaker 1: pivotal moment in history, there's always a backstory, and it's 359 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 1: usually way more interesting than the big story. From mysterious 360 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 1: murders to the baffling sleep schedules of yesteryear to the 361 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 1: fascinating lives of those just outside the limelight. We're going 362 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 1: to uncover the forgotten pieces of history you didn't know 363 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:22,199 Speaker 1: you need it to know. Listen to the Backstory with 364 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:25,480 Speaker 1: me Patty Steeles twice a week on the iHeartRadio app, 365 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:29,600 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, Hello, 366 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:33,160 Speaker 1: Malcolm glabe here, host of Revisionist History, a show about 367 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:37,920 Speaker 1: the overlooked and the misunderstood stories you won't hear anywhere else. 368 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 1: Like our ongoing obsessive campaign to blow up the world's 369 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:47,159 Speaker 1: most focus college ranking system, why not throw in a 370 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:51,520 Speaker 1: few extra zeros or witness me after years of fancy 371 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:54,840 Speaker 1: public speaking, learning that I kind of have to start 372 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:57,800 Speaker 1: over the toe that you had to ot. The debate 373 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 1: was very similar to some of the students than I 374 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:02,520 Speaker 1: do work with, and that's what I teach them not 375 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:05,239 Speaker 1: to do. We're making more revisionist history for you this 376 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:09,679 Speaker 1: year than ever from places all across this great country 377 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 1: emergency rooms, huge theaters, small towns, and shooting righteous and 378 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:18,360 Speaker 1: you want to put your thumb up like the US, 379 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:21,560 Speaker 1: You're gonna pull the trigger with this finger here. Okay, 380 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:25,439 Speaker 1: listen to Revisionist History on the iHeart Radio app, Apple 381 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:30,400 Speaker 1: Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm your host, 382 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 1: Billy Man, and this is okay, let's try again, getting closer, guys, 383 00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:37,600 Speaker 1: this is my podcast. Yeah, I've set up. I've been 384 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:41,200 Speaker 1: a Grammy nominated record producer and entrepreneur for over thirty years, 385 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:42,719 Speaker 1: and that has put me in the room with some 386 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:48,040 Speaker 1: of the most successful individuals in the world. Carman, Nale, 387 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 1: Scoldsberry All and a Gillies. Here. You want somebody who's 388 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:54,720 Speaker 1: all come to the right place. What I wanted to 389 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 1: do was have honest conversations with them about their failures. 390 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:00,479 Speaker 1: I wasn't just changing jobs. My life was over. I 391 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:03,639 Speaker 1: was so close to getting fired. I was failing so bad, 392 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:07,200 Speaker 1: it said Kelly Rowland is no longer a viable artist. 393 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:10,520 Speaker 1: That really did a number on me. He said, you're boring, 394 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 1: so get that hell out of my club. Even the 395 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 1: most successful people deal with feelings of failure. But what 396 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:19,160 Speaker 1: they do is they embrace their up and they learn 397 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:21,679 Speaker 1: from it. Listen to Yeah, I've set up on the 398 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. 399 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:39,200 Speaker 1: The prosecution asks Angela about her relationship with her daughter 400 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 1: in laws. We've heard in previous testimony how George's ex wife, 401 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 1: Tabitha was essentially cut off from her child by the 402 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:48,960 Speaker 1: Wagner family. We've also heard about how Angela claimed to 403 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,879 Speaker 1: love Hannah may Roden like a daughter, but there was 404 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,760 Speaker 1: friction over custody of the child she shared with Jake. 405 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 1: We've spoken before about how Angela wanted to spy on 406 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:02,679 Speaker 1: Hannah Rodin's Facebook A Ativity prosecutor Kneppa asked how she 407 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:07,160 Speaker 1: got access to her passwords to monitor Facebook. According to Angela, 408 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:11,639 Speaker 1: she asked Jake and he gave it to her. Joseph 409 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:16,360 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan. She controlled everything, and he controlled everything, even 410 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:19,160 Speaker 1: down to the relationships that you know that she had, 411 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:22,760 Speaker 1: that her sons had, you know, outside the home. You know, 412 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:26,440 Speaker 1: with these women that came into their lives. And when 413 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:29,400 Speaker 1: you're in a position of power where you can control 414 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:35,440 Speaker 1: people to the point where their romantic interest is trumped 415 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 1: by your ability to manipulate them, where you would be 416 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:44,120 Speaker 1: willing to, you know, at her direction, compel your lovers 417 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:49,359 Speaker 1: to give over passwords and access. Just that one point 418 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 1: alone is really I catch it. Angela used this access 419 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:57,040 Speaker 1: to social media to share screenshots about custody of her 420 00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:00,320 Speaker 1: granddaughter with the family. She was also trying to get 421 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:03,879 Speaker 1: information on Tabitha, George Wagner's ex wife. This is not 422 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:07,440 Speaker 1: what she said, but she's intimating that she's just protecting 423 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 1: her boys away from these bad girls. Essentially, he's a 424 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:15,400 Speaker 1: reminder of what Angela Wagner said when she was recorded 425 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:19,200 Speaker 1: by the BCI at the Canadian border. So your relationship 426 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:22,480 Speaker 1: with him was good. Now, I thought she was a 427 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:25,200 Speaker 1: sport wrap, but I thought she was a spool wrap 428 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 1: because she really was. I mean, no, that's that she 429 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:31,040 Speaker 1: was her guy ever, getting away with every name. And 430 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:33,200 Speaker 1: I thought she would give me looks and she would 431 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:35,639 Speaker 1: Smarrow and she would tell Jacob was being mean, and 432 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 1: you know, but that's typical teenagers. Sometimes. Mothera was and yep. 433 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:47,960 Speaker 1: Time and time again, Wagner would bring it back to 434 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:51,720 Speaker 1: how her family was everything to her and informed everything 435 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:55,119 Speaker 1: she did. But the prosecution brings up an incident with 436 00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:59,679 Speaker 1: Tabitha that we haven't heard about before. Here's Jeff speaking 437 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:03,920 Speaker 1: with cris Ajeanette Levy. She also said some weird things 438 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 1: about Tabby. Angie Kaneppa asked her about Tabby and said, 439 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:10,879 Speaker 1: you know, did Tabby ever try to poison you or 440 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 1: anything like that. She's like, yes, and she was just 441 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:17,480 Speaker 1: adamant about it, just like Jake was adamant like about 442 00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:20,760 Speaker 1: certain things. She said. She described how Tabby one time 443 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:24,960 Speaker 1: put dog hair in her coffee, and she and Jake 444 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:29,120 Speaker 1: liked a particular type of vanilla coffee. And she said 445 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:31,880 Speaker 1: she had her coffee cup one time and Tabby had 446 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:34,679 Speaker 1: made this cup for her, and she looked at it 447 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:38,000 Speaker 1: and she, you know, she's she said, Jake, is there 448 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:41,440 Speaker 1: there's dog hair in this coffee, And she was serious 449 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:44,000 Speaker 1: as could be, and she said Tabby was laughing about it. 450 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 1: She described another time where Tabby had made some kool 451 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:49,560 Speaker 1: aid for George that he liked and he got really sick. 452 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:54,000 Speaker 1: So she has these like things that she kind of 453 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:57,240 Speaker 1: comes up with the dog hair in the coffee thing 454 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:00,399 Speaker 1: was just astounding to me. She truly believed that. I 455 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:03,800 Speaker 1: don't know if it actually happened. I can't imagine somebody 456 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 1: putting dog hair and somebody's coffee. It just seems like 457 00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:10,440 Speaker 1: such a strange thing. But if they believe it, it's gospel. 458 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:14,160 Speaker 1: This belief in the untrue and the ability to convince 459 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:17,440 Speaker 1: her family of it is one of Angela's strengths. According 460 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:21,080 Speaker 1: to forensic examiner Joseph Morgan. You know, you think about Billy, 461 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:24,639 Speaker 1: and you know Billy's they're teaching young Jake how to 462 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 1: hot wire car and sealing it. Well, she's doing the 463 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:32,760 Speaker 1: same things. It's justifiable for you to betray somebody that 464 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:34,880 Speaker 1: you claim to love if it's for the greater good 465 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:38,800 Speaker 1: of the family. And so it's amazing how you can 466 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:43,240 Speaker 1: psychologically leverage somebody with information like that, isn't it? Where 467 00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 1: you can be the driver that you have this endwelling inertia. 468 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 1: You know that carries over to the family and you're 469 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:53,640 Speaker 1: push him in the direction which you so desire. It 470 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:56,840 Speaker 1: was one belief in particular that Angela held that helps 471 00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 1: set in motion the events that led to the murder 472 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:04,400 Speaker 1: of the road Manly and Gilly families. Angela testified she 473 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:08,240 Speaker 1: became worried her granddaughter was being abused while staying with 474 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 1: the Rodent family. She said, quote, I realized something was happening, 475 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:15,280 Speaker 1: some kind of abuse was going on that needed to 476 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:18,440 Speaker 1: be stopped. Agela Wayner was asked if she loved Hannah. 477 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 1: She said, yes, I did at one point, but issues 478 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:25,040 Speaker 1: made me feel like was being sexually abused. Angela said 479 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:28,160 Speaker 1: she became concerned over signs of abuse and claims that 480 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,000 Speaker 1: her grandchild would often appear reluctant to leave and return 481 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:35,280 Speaker 1: to Hannah since they had shared custody. James Pilcher here's 482 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:39,040 Speaker 1: her direct quote. She said, I realized something was happening, 483 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:41,480 Speaker 1: some kind of abuse was going on that needed to 484 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 1: be stopped. And she said she didn't trust child services 485 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,560 Speaker 1: or the law, our law enhorsement, and neither did her husband, Billy. 486 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:54,560 Speaker 1: We've already established that Billy was a Doonesday or Billy 487 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:59,720 Speaker 1: hated police. Billy paid his kids to spot police. Billy 488 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,000 Speaker 1: his kids how to be thieves, so this all set 489 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:05,720 Speaker 1: into it. Although Angela didn't want to kill him, it 490 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:07,600 Speaker 1: was some of the ways she would answer she was like, well, 491 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 1: why did you do this? We were protecting and she 492 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,440 Speaker 1: almost appeared like she was in a fog on the stand, 493 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:15,600 Speaker 1: But then when it got to that, it was almost 494 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:18,760 Speaker 1: like she was razor white hot when she would talk 495 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:22,280 Speaker 1: about protecting that little girl, and then they talked about 496 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:26,120 Speaker 1: Angela's passed in the Air Force and all of this 497 00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:31,880 Speaker 1: surrounding ever present fear of sexual abuse, and it became 498 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 1: almost a paranoia and you could see it in display 499 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 1: clearly when she started talking about that. So the lead 500 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:46,240 Speaker 1: reasoning has been that she felt as though it was 501 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 1: being sexually molested or was going to be sexually molested, 502 00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:53,640 Speaker 1: not that there's ever been proof of that, but that 503 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:58,280 Speaker 1: was the reasoning, and that at some point she noticed 504 00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:02,800 Speaker 1: that Frankie road and kissed on the lips saying goodbye, 505 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:06,600 Speaker 1: and that felt a little strange. In fact, she actually 506 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:10,920 Speaker 1: says that told her mother, Rita nukeamb who at the 507 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:13,400 Speaker 1: time was living next door to her with her grandmother, 508 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 1: that she was being touched inappropriately, and then Rita Newcombe 509 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 1: repeated that to Angela, and then Angela repeated it to 510 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:27,480 Speaker 1: Jake and the entire family, George and Billy. At that 511 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:31,160 Speaker 1: point when Jake found out about it. Rather than talking 512 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:34,160 Speaker 1: about it with the Rodents or anything, they just started 513 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:37,120 Speaker 1: putting this plan together to protect her and she had 514 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:42,880 Speaker 1: to protect the babies. But apparently Angela Wagner's assertions of 515 00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:46,200 Speaker 1: abuse were not based in reality. This fear that the 516 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:49,680 Speaker 1: little girl would be molested. The prosecution basically says that 517 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:52,320 Speaker 1: was something they kind of whipped up in their heads 518 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:56,840 Speaker 1: to justify what they wanted to do. They are entitled 519 00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:59,240 Speaker 1: and feel that those children should be with them and 520 00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:03,280 Speaker 1: no one else. There is no doubt that this family 521 00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:05,800 Speaker 1: wanted those kids to be one hundred percent Wagner, and 522 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:08,640 Speaker 1: that's what this is all about. They had convinced themselves 523 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,240 Speaker 1: there may have been some abuse, but that was basically 524 00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:14,640 Speaker 1: window dressing for their their belief that these kids should 525 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:18,560 Speaker 1: belong to them, regardless of any actual evidence of abuse. 526 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:20,560 Speaker 1: The idea had been planted in the minds of the 527 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:24,360 Speaker 1: Wagner family, and Angela stoked the fire. I think that 528 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 1: she's probably arguably the smartest one in the crew, and 529 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 1: the reason I think that that's it's quite ominous. I 530 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:36,560 Speaker 1: think she knew what buttons to press with all three 531 00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:39,360 Speaker 1: of these men in her life, you know, She's probably 532 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:41,640 Speaker 1: known how to control them their entire life, or at 533 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:45,360 Speaker 1: least that portion of Billy's life that he was with her. 534 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 1: She knew, you know, where to press, how far she 535 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:53,240 Speaker 1: could go to attain her goals, if you will, in 536 00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:55,640 Speaker 1: any of this and anything that she she set her 537 00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:58,960 Speaker 1: mind to doing. And you know, she she wanted to 538 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:01,600 Speaker 1: be be the head hancho, you know, in the family, 539 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:04,640 Speaker 1: and she was. She told Jeors she suspected the Rodents 540 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 1: were abusing, did not take her to the doctor. Said, 541 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:10,640 Speaker 1: we didn't believe in the justice system, didn't believe in 542 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:14,719 Speaker 1: children's services, she said. By January twenty sixteen, her husband 543 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:17,760 Speaker 1: started coming up with the plan they had to be murdered. 544 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:20,320 Speaker 1: She said. She went to her husband, Billy, with her concerns, 545 00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:23,520 Speaker 1: saying she wanted to turn in Chris Roden Senior for 546 00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:27,800 Speaker 1: growing marijuana. Billy nixed that, coming up with an alternate plan. 547 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:32,280 Speaker 1: She said, quote the plan was they needed to be murdered. Later, 548 00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:35,240 Speaker 1: she said, her husband told the entire family, quote, this 549 00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:40,600 Speaker 1: was going to change everything. According to Angelo Agnes's testimony, 550 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:44,280 Speaker 1: Billy came up with the plan for murder. Billy ultimately 551 00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:47,880 Speaker 1: decided that the only way was to kill Hannah, and 552 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:50,480 Speaker 1: that they couldn't stop short of killing Hannah Rodin, the 553 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 1: mother of but they would have to kill Chris Rodin 554 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:58,760 Speaker 1: Senior because he ultimately exercise control over Hannah and the 555 00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:02,480 Speaker 1: Roden family, and that other witnesses, other members of the 556 00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:04,760 Speaker 1: Rodent family would have to be killed for it to 557 00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:08,640 Speaker 1: be successful. That's essentially what Angela testified, and that really 558 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:12,960 Speaker 1: was Billy who was a driver here. Angela wanted to 559 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 1: turn Chris Sinior in for his marijuana and then that 560 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:21,319 Speaker 1: would get the family in trouble, and therefore maybe Jake 561 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:25,239 Speaker 1: would get more visitation rights or more control over the 562 00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:29,239 Speaker 1: over the fate of his daughter and her granddaughter. Well, 563 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:31,800 Speaker 1: of course that cut too close for home for Billy, 564 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:35,360 Speaker 1: because Billy had been in business with Chris. Chris Sinior 565 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,920 Speaker 1: had tried to teach Billy how to grow marijuana. And 566 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:42,520 Speaker 1: then so she says, Billy came up with this alternate plan. 567 00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:45,880 Speaker 1: Here's the quote quote. The plan was they needed to 568 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:49,120 Speaker 1: be murdered, yeah, and then it progressed from there that Okay, 569 00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:51,160 Speaker 1: we're gonna start talking about how we're going to do it. 570 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:55,839 Speaker 1: And she said that they would actually have conversations with 571 00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:59,279 Speaker 1: the water running, or outside in the carboard with the 572 00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:02,400 Speaker 1: car running, without the TV's on, with no phones around 573 00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:07,279 Speaker 1: because they're so paranoid of being overheard. During one of 574 00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:09,880 Speaker 1: these meetings with George and Jake Wagner in the kitchen, 575 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:12,480 Speaker 1: Angela asked her sons if they wanted to go through 576 00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:17,400 Speaker 1: with the murders. According to Angela, they said yes. Joseph 577 00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:20,640 Speaker 1: Morgan says that the accusation of molestation would get the 578 00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:23,320 Speaker 1: rest of the Wagner family to do what Angela wanted. 579 00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:27,480 Speaker 1: She was the person that had the thirty thousand foot 580 00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 1: view of the entire family. She saw where all the 581 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:32,480 Speaker 1: weaknesses were, she saw where the strengths were, and she 582 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:35,920 Speaker 1: knew what the goal was in order to win, you know. 583 00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:39,279 Speaker 1: And I think that her endgame has always been to have, 584 00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:43,880 Speaker 1: you know, total control over the Wagner family. And you know, 585 00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:45,879 Speaker 1: she was going to be she's a run her own ship, 586 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:48,680 Speaker 1: and she's she's the master of the ship as well, 587 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:51,600 Speaker 1: and all of these people are there to do her bidding. 588 00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:54,319 Speaker 1: And you know, Billy may have had this thought at 589 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:57,160 Speaker 1: a real primal level. I think that he needed to 590 00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:00,239 Speaker 1: take care of the rodents. But it was in my opinion, least, 591 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,120 Speaker 1: it was an Angela that was overlording all of this 592 00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:06,879 Speaker 1: all the way along. In episode four thirteen, we saw 593 00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:11,120 Speaker 1: evidence of how Angela manipulated Billy through text messages. I 594 00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:13,439 Speaker 1: am moving on. You are more than welcome to come 595 00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:17,160 Speaker 1: bring babies and come on, Angela, well, they are not 596 00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:19,480 Speaker 1: our babies. And I would never do that to George 597 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:21,759 Speaker 1: and Jake. I would have killed someone if they would 598 00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:24,600 Speaker 1: have even mentioned going away with my babies. And if 599 00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:27,640 Speaker 1: you really missed me, you would do anything or go 600 00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:32,160 Speaker 1: through anything for me. Billy. It's a fine mess, Angela. 601 00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:35,600 Speaker 1: Well maybe it is worth you helping me work it out. Billy. 602 00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:38,399 Speaker 1: I got a plan if you just take one damn 603 00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:42,920 Speaker 1: minute and listen. Angela. Okay, tell me, Billy when I 604 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:45,080 Speaker 1: see you. This is the last time I am going 605 00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:47,279 Speaker 1: to try. If the three of you don't take time 606 00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:51,280 Speaker 1: to listen to me, then oh well, Angela okay. Joseph 607 00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:54,360 Speaker 1: Morgan isn't an amazing a fund, you know, and Angela 608 00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:57,840 Speaker 1: is certainly a fun example of this. It's very easy 609 00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:03,200 Speaker 1: for her to rationalize justify her actions. She doesn't necessarily 610 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:05,359 Speaker 1: do in court, but the lead up to it, when 611 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,920 Speaker 1: she's the driver behind all of this is that she's 612 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 1: looking out for the greater good of the family. You know, 613 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:15,719 Speaker 1: it's the women. The women are all women of ill repute. 614 00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:20,160 Speaker 1: The kids that she does not have and her immediate 615 00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:23,799 Speaker 1: control run the risk of being sexually molested. That she 616 00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:26,759 Speaker 1: needs to be the one to provide watch care and 617 00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:29,120 Speaker 1: the family has to watch over them at all time. 618 00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:31,600 Speaker 1: The rest of the world is evil, We're the ones 619 00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:35,880 Speaker 1: that are right. And isn't that interesting how her worldview 620 00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:40,920 Speaker 1: kind of parallels that of Billy's. While Angela testified it 621 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:43,960 Speaker 1: wasn't her idea to murder the Rodents, she did admit 622 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:47,320 Speaker 1: to helping plan the crimes. Now well understand, Angela Wagner 623 00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:49,080 Speaker 1: admitted to him staying at home on the night of 624 00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:51,440 Speaker 1: the murders, but said she helped her sons and husband 625 00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:55,160 Speaker 1: prepare for them. Here's Prosecutor Angela Kaneppa laying out what 626 00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:59,360 Speaker 1: Angela Wagner bought to prepare for the murders. She admits 627 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:06,319 Speaker 1: to buying this for her sons. We show Jake at 628 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:10,600 Speaker 1: least his awards card being used to buy seven six, 629 00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:14,120 Speaker 1: nine thirty two AMMO and a magazine for an SKS. 630 00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:19,440 Speaker 1: Also in April, there was a phone jammer purchased by Angela. 631 00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:25,799 Speaker 1: A phone jammer jams signals for phones. So say you're 632 00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:28,839 Speaker 1: going to go murder eight people and you don't want 633 00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:31,920 Speaker 1: them to be able to call for help, then you 634 00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:35,200 Speaker 1: have a phone jammer on your person and it jams 635 00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:38,480 Speaker 1: the signals. But that was purchased, and a bug detector 636 00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:44,720 Speaker 1: was purchased by Angela. The financial records also just confirm 637 00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:47,000 Speaker 1: what we already knew, which was they function as one 638 00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:50,520 Speaker 1: unit and pretty much everything they do financially is no exception. 639 00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:55,640 Speaker 1: Angela said that Billy came to her with this idea 640 00:38:55,760 --> 00:39:00,279 Speaker 1: that they discussed it outside in this area of you know, 641 00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:03,640 Speaker 1: like carpoort type area, and I'm trying to like envision 642 00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:06,480 Speaker 1: where exactly that would be. But they were outside the 643 00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:08,960 Speaker 1: home on Peterson Road, and Billy came up with this 644 00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:13,720 Speaker 1: and then she said, you know that they included the boys. 645 00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:17,600 Speaker 1: But she said she didn't go along. She did order things. 646 00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:20,040 Speaker 1: She ordered what Billy told her to order. She said, 647 00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:23,640 Speaker 1: Jake told her to go buy the Walmart shoes, and 648 00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:26,640 Speaker 1: so she did, and you know, it was just kind 649 00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:29,520 Speaker 1: of like she was the shopper almost. This is what 650 00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:32,480 Speaker 1: it sounds like. Billy took care, I guess of everything else, 651 00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:36,520 Speaker 1: and the boys took care of everything else. So you know, 652 00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:39,080 Speaker 1: it sounds like she was kind of throwing it all 653 00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:54,279 Speaker 1: on Billy. Let's stop here for another break. According to 654 00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:57,960 Speaker 1: Angela's testimony, Billy said they needed a vehicle for the murders. 655 00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:01,480 Speaker 1: Angela told George to get five thousand dollars out of 656 00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:04,040 Speaker 1: their safe and use that to purchase the truck that 657 00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:08,560 Speaker 1: would be used the night of the murders. Here's Stephanie. 658 00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:11,920 Speaker 1: She was definitely saying it as though this was Billy 659 00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:16,720 Speaker 1: and Jake and George's plan. And yes, she was kind 660 00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:20,040 Speaker 1: of going through the paces to stick to their story. 661 00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:23,400 Speaker 1: And yes she went and she bought the stuff, and 662 00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:28,120 Speaker 1: the shoes were something that she actually purchased. Quite obviously. 663 00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:30,839 Speaker 1: They have her on camera doing it, so on the 664 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:34,120 Speaker 1: one hand, she's sort of just a bystander to it 665 00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:39,200 Speaker 1: and to this day claims she doesn't know the nightly details. 666 00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:43,799 Speaker 1: Angela testifies that prior to the murders, Billy came over 667 00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:47,080 Speaker 1: one night and was telling everyone, quote, come on, come on, 668 00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:50,800 Speaker 1: but apparently nobody listened, and so Billy got mad and left. 669 00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:54,800 Speaker 1: Nobody was moving fast enough, but the next day, Billy 670 00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:58,200 Speaker 1: Wagner came back. He told them to get ready. Prosecutor 671 00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:01,680 Speaker 1: Kneppa asks of Angela new who was going to the killings. 672 00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:06,240 Speaker 1: Angela's response, No, I didn't ask and I wasn't told 673 00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:10,560 Speaker 1: about the murder. To this day, she doesn't know the 674 00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:14,160 Speaker 1: details of what happened that night because they've never told 675 00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:17,759 Speaker 1: her and Billy never told her. All she knows is 676 00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:20,759 Speaker 1: what the plan was, that she had to keep the 677 00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:23,760 Speaker 1: phones and that at a certain time she would send 678 00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:26,279 Speaker 1: out a text as she was supposed to kind of 679 00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:30,640 Speaker 1: place the phones at the house. When Billy, Jake, and 680 00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:34,200 Speaker 1: George left for the road and households, Angela claims she 681 00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:38,680 Speaker 1: was conflicted. Angela testified about the actual day of the murders, 682 00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:42,920 Speaker 1: saying she saw Jake, George, and Billy Wagner leave that evening. 683 00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:46,040 Speaker 1: She said she was overwhelmed with emotion after they left, 684 00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:49,000 Speaker 1: fearing they might not come back or even what might happen. 685 00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:52,040 Speaker 1: Angela also testified she thought about racing after them to 686 00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:55,400 Speaker 1: stop them, but realized it was too late. Jeff and 687 00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:59,279 Speaker 1: Angelinette Levy. This is according to her. She stayed home 688 00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:01,840 Speaker 1: that night. It was just really interesting to me. Because 689 00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:04,640 Speaker 1: she did her part. And then she said she had 690 00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:06,839 Speaker 1: taken an ivy prof and so she fell and then 691 00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:09,799 Speaker 1: she fell asleep. So you know, she fell asleep as 692 00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:14,040 Speaker 1: they went on this horrific mission to kill people, even 693 00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:17,040 Speaker 1: though she said she felt bad about it and thought, oh, 694 00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:20,520 Speaker 1: I wonder if I could stop it. But you know, oh, 695 00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:24,160 Speaker 1: but I had the kids here, so she didn't take 696 00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:26,800 Speaker 1: any steps to stop it. Do you buy that at all? 697 00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:30,320 Speaker 1: I mean, I think she might have had some misgivings, 698 00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:34,239 Speaker 1: but no, I find it hard to believe that. Your excuses, 699 00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:36,720 Speaker 1: Oh well, I'm home with the kids, so I can't 700 00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:40,239 Speaker 1: stop them from going and killing eight people or even 701 00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:43,200 Speaker 1: one person. I mean, come on, if she wanted to 702 00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:48,040 Speaker 1: stop it, she could have stopped it. As news coverage shows, 703 00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:51,080 Speaker 1: the horrific events of the night unfolded as the Wagners 704 00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:54,840 Speaker 1: had planned. The night of the homicide, she said the 705 00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:58,520 Speaker 1: three Wagner men left the house together, returned together the 706 00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:02,080 Speaker 1: next morning. She didn't know who did the shooting, did 707 00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:06,240 Speaker 1: not want the details. That night, eight members of the Rodent, 708 00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:10,920 Speaker 1: Manly and Gilly families were murdered. Angela testifies that the 709 00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:13,040 Speaker 1: next day she heard about the murders on the news. 710 00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:15,719 Speaker 1: George Wagner's mom did say today that while she knew 711 00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:18,400 Speaker 1: what was going to happen six years ago, the homicide 712 00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:21,680 Speaker 1: still shocked her. She remembers asking her husband Billy why 713 00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:25,319 Speaker 1: so many victims? His response quote because they were there. 714 00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:29,560 Speaker 1: During cross examination of Angela Wagner, an attorney for her 715 00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:34,280 Speaker 1: son George Keaton two themes Angela's lies and her paranoia. 716 00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:36,560 Speaker 1: The defense team's goal is to cast blame for the 717 00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:40,520 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen Pike County massacre on Angela, her husband Billy, 718 00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:43,479 Speaker 1: and George's brother Jake, but not the man on trial 719 00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:46,799 Speaker 1: for murderer. We've heard so much about her, you know, 720 00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:48,879 Speaker 1: we've talked about her for years, and she's been kind 721 00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:50,680 Speaker 1: of like the center of all of this, and this 722 00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:52,799 Speaker 1: is the culmination of all that. I mean, what's your 723 00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:55,680 Speaker 1: take on hearing it straight from her mouth finally, Well, 724 00:43:55,719 --> 00:44:01,600 Speaker 1: I mean, it's shocking to hear it really is. More 725 00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:05,760 Speaker 1: on that next time. For more information on the case 726 00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:10,719 Speaker 1: and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at Katie Underscore Studios. 727 00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:14,880 Speaker 1: The Piked and Masker is produced by Stephanie Lidecker, Jeff Shane, 728 00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:20,280 Speaker 1: Chris Cacaro, Andrew Arnow. Gabriel Castillo and me Courtney Armstrong. 729 00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:25,200 Speaker 1: Editing and sound designed by Jeff Ti, Music by Jared Aston. 730 00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:28,320 Speaker 1: The Piked and Masker is a production of iHeartRadio and 731 00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:32,319 Speaker 1: Katie Studios. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit 732 00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:36,840 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 733 00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:37,840 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.