Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways. I don't know stories of things we simply
Speaker 1: don't know the answer too well. Hi, They're welcome to
Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways the podcast. I am Steve as always enjoying
Speaker 1: my co host Deven and today we we've got another
Speaker 1: Actually it's not another. This is actually a really complex
Speaker 1: mystery that we're going to go into. This is I
Speaker 1: would say, this is the first time we've done anything
Speaker 1: like this. Yeah, and this is I know, this is
Speaker 1: this is a tough case. I know it made Devon uncomfortable.
Speaker 1: Number of times you were not happy researching. I'm not
Speaker 1: and it usually liked the murder I usually I usually do.
Speaker 1: I just think there's something about this case as a
Speaker 1: young female that is, you know, and granted I am
Speaker 1: not of the similar situation of this case that we're
Speaker 1: going to talk about, but just there's something, you know,
Speaker 1: like I can totally do the like random unsolved kind
Speaker 1: of mysterious murders, but like when we're talking about something
Speaker 1: like this, yeah, you know, actually just makes me researching this.
Speaker 1: I don't know if you guys ever watched that show
Speaker 1: was on for two seasons years ago, twin Peaks, They
Speaker 1: ever watched that show? I did see some of it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's about this bucolic little town up in Washington, and
Speaker 1: uh and it's like, you know, a little small town.
Speaker 1: Everything's nice and everything, but then there's just all this
Speaker 1: stuff going on underneath the surface. I mean a lot
Speaker 1: of murder, a lot of just intrigue, all kinds of
Speaker 1: people who really surprise you. You know, you thought they
Speaker 1: were they were just regular folks. With what this of
Speaker 1: With with that very descriptive introduction, before we get into
Speaker 1: things I want to talking about, well, I want to
Speaker 1: tell everybody right now that the story that we're going
Speaker 1: to talk about involves multiple murders and some very graphic things.
Speaker 1: So if that's not your deal, if or if you've
Speaker 1: got kids around right now, you should probably either skip
Speaker 1: this one or listen to you know, listen to it later. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because it's this is this is a rough one. It
Speaker 1: has the potential to be a rough one. And and
Speaker 1: the story that we're going to talk about is the
Speaker 1: Jefferson Davis Sate or you've also also it's also referred
Speaker 1: to as the Jennings eight. Yeah, and and this was
Speaker 1: this is this is not a small story. So again,
Speaker 1: this is kind of one of those we've all taken
Speaker 1: it on together to try and work through this, and
Speaker 1: I've got to tell you right on the on the outset, Joiel,
Speaker 1: We're not going to solve this, this one, even more
Speaker 1: than any of the other times you ever say that, well,
Speaker 1: we can solve this. In high level terms, there were
Speaker 1: eight murders. Okay, well, don't don't. Don't get ahead of yourself.
Speaker 1: And if he okay, am I wrong? All right? So
Speaker 1: what we're gonna do here is is we're gonna do
Speaker 1: this in a couple of different parts. So this is
Speaker 1: gonna be set up a little bit differently than a
Speaker 1: normal episode is we're gonna kind of break down some
Speaker 1: of the players that are involved in some of the facts.
Speaker 1: The person that did the most investigation on this story
Speaker 1: is a man by the name of Ethan Brown. And
Speaker 1: Ethan Brown he wrote a great article about this and
Speaker 1: it was on me, it's on medium and were we
Speaker 1: actually were lucky enough to talk to him, and so
Speaker 1: we've got a pretty good, lengthy interview where he's gonna
Speaker 1: walk through a lot of this stuff with you and
Speaker 1: then we'll talk about some other stuff after that. But
Speaker 1: I just kind of wanna before we get to that interview.
Speaker 1: Let's lay down some groundwork. So by the way, he's
Speaker 1: Ethan Brown is writing a book about this very topic,
Speaker 1: which y'all are probably going to go out and get
Speaker 1: a copy of, probably are um and I think it
Speaker 1: would probably be helpful to mention on the outset. You
Speaker 1: may or may not know our website we always post stuff,
Speaker 1: but Steve has made this kind of flow chart graphic
Speaker 1: description of what's going on. So if you want to
Speaker 1: check out that document, it's a you can download it
Speaker 1: as a PDF. We're going to make it available to you,
Speaker 1: so right now go to Thinking Sideways podcast dot com.
Speaker 1: You can just you know, click on it, check the
Speaker 1: PDF or printed out whatever you want. It may actually
Speaker 1: help you track this if that's something a lot of
Speaker 1: you listen while you're at work, whatever, So don't worry
Speaker 1: about it. We're gonna do the best we can. But
Speaker 1: if you are interested, you should do that. Now. Print
Speaker 1: out your like little Annie Orphan Annie. Hopefully your printer
Speaker 1: can handle the leven by seventeen. View it online. It's easy,
Speaker 1: but no it I we made this knowing that this
Speaker 1: was a complicated case and this is the first time
Speaker 1: we've had to do is and I think it's going
Speaker 1: to really help. Okay, Okay, so now that you've downloaded
Speaker 1: the pdf, Okay, so here, let's let's start out and
Speaker 1: we'll just kind of take this in. Each person will
Speaker 1: kind of take a different piece. So I'll go ahead
Speaker 1: and I'll start off with our victims. And there are
Speaker 1: eight victims, primary victims. And these are eight different women,
Speaker 1: and those plus two other corpses. Well, yes, this is
Speaker 1: why we're just talking about right now. We're just gonna
Speaker 1: name off our primary victims, the eight and they were
Speaker 1: murdered between two thousand five to two thousand nine. And
Speaker 1: and on the outset. Again, if we haven't said this,
Speaker 1: these murders are unsolved. Yeah. And and by the way,
Speaker 1: this is this is in in Jennings, Louisiana, a little
Speaker 1: small town of about what ten thousand people. Now I'm
Speaker 1: thinking about this now we live in We live in
Speaker 1: Portland's which average is about twenty murders a year. Portland
Speaker 1: is infinitely larger than Yeah. Yeah, that's the first town
Speaker 1: that size. That's a hell of a lot of murder. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I guess that there's so they is the eight.
Speaker 1: This is getting ahead of ourselves talking about let's just
Speaker 1: talk about the eighth. So I'm gonna just list them
Speaker 1: off in chronological order. On May two thousand five, the
Speaker 1: body of Lynn Lewis was found. We're doing chronological of
Speaker 1: discovery of discovery, yes, yes, thank you for clarifying that,
Speaker 1: because we don't know the exact dates. So these are
Speaker 1: all discoveries of the body. And also they might have
Speaker 1: committed suicide. Just made it look like murderers, alright. So
Speaker 1: next we have Ernestine Patterson, whose body was discovered on
Speaker 1: June eighteenth of two thousand five. We have Kristen Lopez
Speaker 1: whose body was found on March eighteenth of two thousand seven,
Speaker 1: Whitney Dubois who was found on May seventeenth, two thousand seven.
Speaker 1: Laconia Brown was found on May twenty nine of two
Speaker 1: thousand eight. Crystal zen Zeno Rosino I think it's Zeno
Speaker 1: Zeno was set Timber eleven, two thousand eight, was found,
Speaker 1: Brittany Gary was found on November eleven of two thousand
Speaker 1: and eight, and then lastly, Nicole Guillory was found on
Speaker 1: August nineteen of two thousand nine. And they're all young women.
Speaker 1: The youngest I believe was seventeen and the oldest was
Speaker 1: thirty years old, so they're they're in a very very
Speaker 1: pretty tight age range. And we'll just talk a little
Speaker 1: bit about the murder victims themselves. In this town, it's
Speaker 1: rampant with drug use, each other, they all knew each other.
Speaker 1: There's prostitution is known to have taken place, and these
Speaker 1: girls were all prostitutes at one time. And I believe
Speaker 1: that they were all prostitutes. I'm not gonna I'm not
Speaker 1: gonnacent say, I'm not going to cast dispersions on the dead.
Speaker 1: But they were also all known to frequent the same place.
Speaker 1: Which is it the Joe helped with the pronunciation. Is
Speaker 1: it more though? I think, and I think it's Boudau. Boudreau,
Speaker 1: by the way, is closed down now, yes, And this
Speaker 1: will this will the Boudreau will and will come up
Speaker 1: in our interview with Ethan. So again we're just kind
Speaker 1: of laying these things out. But the end was it
Speaker 1: sounded like a tin building that operated as a hotel.
Speaker 1: Yeahs was a hotel eight yeah, not not even up
Speaker 1: to that high standard, yeah, I know. And and there
Speaker 1: was a lot of basically it was kind of a
Speaker 1: den of iniquity, a lot of drug use, a lot
Speaker 1: of prostitution, doing things like that. And Mr Brown will
Speaker 1: talk about this a little bit. But Jennings is a
Speaker 1: place that's very divided. There's the north side and the
Speaker 1: south side, which are divided by literal railroad track and
Speaker 1: the south side is apparently a den of kind of
Speaker 1: people who are on a much lower economic class. Lots
Speaker 1: of prostitution, drug use, crime. Doing what you think you
Speaker 1: have to do to get is the best way I
Speaker 1: can think of to say. I did a little street tour.
Speaker 1: Actually I got on Google Maps and did just gun
Speaker 1: on the street view and just buzzed around the streets
Speaker 1: a little bit of the north part of town. And
Speaker 1: it doesn't look that bad, you know. Um. And then
Speaker 1: I got to try to go to the south and
Speaker 1: apparently the Google car was afraid to go there. There's
Speaker 1: not even Google ste pictures. Actually there are a little
Speaker 1: bit there. But yeah, So there are also three cops
Speaker 1: that are closely tied to this case. Well I think
Speaker 1: I think I think it's three cops that that come
Speaker 1: up the most is And you might want to talk
Speaker 1: about the task force a little bit. There either is
Speaker 1: a task force. It's like local cops. It's local cops
Speaker 1: FBI and county coups and state cops and that b
Speaker 1: I on there. I wasn't clear on that theoretically there theoretically,
Speaker 1: but they're a local branch of the FBI, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: so these people all know each other. Um, But the
Speaker 1: three main cop players that are kind of brought up
Speaker 1: that are really tied into the case, Um, the first
Speaker 1: I'm not tied into the sense we should stress that
Speaker 1: that there's there's any indication that they have any they've
Speaker 1: actually got involvement in the murders. Nefarious, but yeah, but
Speaker 1: there's there's questionable actions we'll talk about. That's a little bit. Well,
Speaker 1: let me let me preface what Joe said there. And
Speaker 1: I don't know, We're we're pretty deep in this, and
Speaker 1: that's why I want us to back up a little
Speaker 1: bit for our listeners. I don't know about YouTube, but
Speaker 1: I've had my head deep in this story for three weeks,
Speaker 1: to the point that I've been talking about this story
Speaker 1: to everybody I know, to the point that I know
Speaker 1: that my boss is tired of hearing about it, my
Speaker 1: fiance is tired of hearing about it, my friends are
Speaker 1: tired of here. But they want to talk. But we're
Speaker 1: so deep in this is that I think that what
Speaker 1: we need to get across before we get too much
Speaker 1: in of the cops is this is a very tiny
Speaker 1: a very small town, and everybody knows everybody. And so
Speaker 1: when we're talking about these people and we're gonna make connections,
Speaker 1: it's because if you've ever known anybody, or you've ever
Speaker 1: lived it, who's in a small town, everybody knows everybody,
Speaker 1: and everybody's connected. And that's that's the point of what
Speaker 1: I think is the reason that we're bringing up these
Speaker 1: these particulars and they have they have very defined actions
Speaker 1: that connects them to the case. It may not be murders,
Speaker 1: but I'm going to talk about that right now. So
Speaker 1: Paula Guillory, she was a deputy um in Jennings for
Speaker 1: a while. She has no longer a deputy. She has
Speaker 1: since been fired. She was part of the task force
Speaker 1: and she was charged with managing the evidence in a
Speaker 1: case against a guy named Frankie Richard, who we're going
Speaker 1: to talk about in a minute, because about four thousand
Speaker 1: dollars was missing after it was cataloged. It just went
Speaker 1: missing out of evidence. So she was excused of taking
Speaker 1: that money. Yeah, it was actually one. She was turning
Speaker 1: it into be catalog. That's when it came missing. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And then and I don't know that Ethan talked a
Speaker 1: little bit about this, so we'll get a little bit
Speaker 1: into the nitty gritty of that. Um. But she was
Speaker 1: fired for theft and um claims of tampering with the
Speaker 1: evidence or theft of evidence. And she was at one
Speaker 1: time married to a man named Terry Guillory as also
Speaker 1: a cop who was actually the warden at the local jail,
Speaker 1: who was cousins with one of the murder victims, the
Speaker 1: seventh murder victim. He was the warden at a local jail,
Speaker 1: and he was alleged to have tricked out female inmates,
Speaker 1: which I guess means that means you put really cool
Speaker 1: accessories on he was. It's essentially he was pimping them out,
Speaker 1: which is not a good thing to have somebody in
Speaker 1: a position of authority doing that kind of stuff. Happens though.
Speaker 1: And then Officer Warren Gary, who as far as we
Speaker 1: can tell, has no actual relation to Brittany Gary who
Speaker 1: was remember six if you're keeping track, and he I
Speaker 1: don't want to get too deep into it, but he
Speaker 1: purchased a truck that was probably evidence and then detailed it,
Speaker 1: thus negating any evidence that would be in said truck.
Speaker 1: And he purchased it from Warden Terry Guillory actually broker.
Speaker 1: This Guillory broker the sale. He actually bought it from somebody.
Speaker 1: Sorry for passing, and that that evidence. Just so we
Speaker 1: can tie back to our victims, would be it's related
Speaker 1: to the Lopez murder, which is victim number three. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so those are the three main police officers that were
Speaker 1: we'll talk about a little bit in regards to this case. Okay,
Speaker 1: Now we talked about the pulitzide, the Pope Poz. Let's
Speaker 1: talk about some of the other local characters. There's there's
Speaker 1: a guy that's kind of at the center of a
Speaker 1: lot of this stuff whose name is Frankie Richard. Frankie
Speaker 1: is an older guy and he's been around the block
Speaker 1: a few times. He is has got his fingers and
Speaker 1: a lot of pies in Jennings. He is rumored alleged
Speaker 1: to be a major pimp, and it's it's rumored that
Speaker 1: he actually pimped out all the women who were murdered,
Speaker 1: all but one actually Okay, yeah, it was he yeah,
Speaker 1: it was all but one of them he had pimped out. Yeah. Uh.
Speaker 1: He's involved in various other things like for example, um,
Speaker 1: the raid where Paula Guillory, the policewoman that we just
Speaker 1: talked about that got her in hot water, was a
Speaker 1: raid on his house. So he had a bunch of
Speaker 1: other people in this. In this particular instance, had been
Speaker 1: running this rain where they they broke into people's homes
Speaker 1: and stole stuff including cash and coins and jewelry and
Speaker 1: stuff like that. And so they rated, including including Paula
Speaker 1: Guillory and some other people. They rated his home and
Speaker 1: arrested a few people and confiscated a bunch of material,
Speaker 1: including the evidence that she was supposed to turn in
Speaker 1: four thousand dollars was turned in missing, So that was all.
Speaker 1: That was all Frankie ri Shard. So he's he's been
Speaker 1: involved in a lot of this. And if you talked
Speaker 1: to h if you talk to Ethan Brown, Ethan Brown
Speaker 1: actually spent a lot of time hanging out with Frankie
Speaker 1: ri Shard. He's kind of the he's kind of the
Speaker 1: crime kingpan of Jenny. Yeah, he doesn't he doesn't sound
Speaker 1: like the kind of guy I want to sit around
Speaker 1: and have a beer with I've watched interviews with him,
Speaker 1: and he is creepy. He's creepy. The word to use.
Speaker 1: Creepy is the word that I would use, but in
Speaker 1: the way that it's unsettling to talk to people who
Speaker 1: might not be all the way they're generally. Oh, you
Speaker 1: mean a long term drug users, somebody who's been using
Speaker 1: drugs for a long time, and they're talking, he's talking
Speaker 1: and stuff, but he's just not there's something there. It's
Speaker 1: just like, you know, like a there's a wire that's
Speaker 1: not totally connected. He's not in that weird it's hard
Speaker 1: to describe. He himself admitted to like decades of drug
Speaker 1: and alcohol abuse. Definitely. Yeah, And I unfortunately, just because
Speaker 1: of where I grew up, I know a lot of
Speaker 1: people like that, and so I can I totally understand
Speaker 1: what you're saying. There's something you talk to somebody like
Speaker 1: it's I guess it's that like there's like a bit
Speaker 1: of like emotional connection that seems to be missing. And
Speaker 1: I also think that it's the loose wire that you
Speaker 1: talked about. Yeah, I actually think it's not loose. It's
Speaker 1: connected to the wrong spot and they make a lot
Speaker 1: of weird rapid jumps and that's that's unsettling. A lot
Speaker 1: of heavy drug uses. And those are the people that
Speaker 1: I've always found were like that. They just they skip
Speaker 1: back and forth. It's it's like a needle on a
Speaker 1: record that is in a car driving down the road.
Speaker 1: It's just I've known people like that. And you know, again,
Speaker 1: we'll post a link to a video an interview with him,
Speaker 1: but it's uh, yeah, sorry, not until that's fine. But yeah, anyway,
Speaker 1: so we talked about Frankie Ushard. Just another side about Frankie.
Speaker 1: He was he was actually uh they actually tried to
Speaker 1: put him on trial for one of the murders because
Speaker 1: somebody named there's another character I'm going to produce you now,
Speaker 1: Tracy Chase Song is a person who a female person
Speaker 1: who claims that she saw Frankie and his god niece
Speaker 1: Hannah Connor murder Dubois. Which who was which one? She
Speaker 1: was the fourth victim? I believe? Yeah, Okay, so Tracy
Speaker 1: actually claimed to a scene Frankie Richard murder a couple
Speaker 1: of different people. And then of course I mentioned Hannah
Speaker 1: Hannah Connor that is again Richard's god niece, and they
Speaker 1: spent some time hanging out together. In terms of the
Speaker 1: Dubois murder, which of course Frankie didn't never actually got
Speaker 1: tried for because for lack of evidence. UM she claimed
Speaker 1: that she was sitting around getting high with du Bois,
Speaker 1: Hannah Connor, Frankie Rochard, and herself, and Frankie made a
Speaker 1: move on. Du Bois wanted to like have sex with her.
Speaker 1: She refused, so he got angry beat her up, and
Speaker 1: that supposedly Hanna Khan her and Hannah Connor held her
Speaker 1: down and they drowned her. I don't know how that works.
Speaker 1: Exactly four seven up down her throat until she can't
Speaker 1: breathe anymore. But yeah, well we won't go into the
Speaker 1: grizzly details, but let's just say that she was found
Speaker 1: next to um, what's it's canal because the area it's
Speaker 1: in Louisiana, so it's surrounded by canals, and they drowned her.
Speaker 1: She she was drowned. And and actually that brings up
Speaker 1: one thing that I did forget to mention when we
Speaker 1: were talking about her victims is that six of our
Speaker 1: eight victims we don't have a confirmed cause a death.
Speaker 1: They were two they were too decomposed. They believe it
Speaker 1: was aphyxia, but they can't confirm that. And then the
Speaker 1: other two, which this is terrible. With the other two,
Speaker 1: they know the cause of death because their throats were
Speaker 1: cut they slit. So so yeah, so I I just
Speaker 1: because that one, I know, they talked about drowning this
Speaker 1: particular individual. Okay, Now, speaking of speaking of some of
Speaker 1: the other characters involved, there's a couple of guys Byron
Speaker 1: Jones and Lawrence Nixon, who are just just general narrative
Speaker 1: wells who hung around Jennings. They were charged for Patterson's murder.
Speaker 1: Patterson was the second the second victim. She was discovered
Speaker 1: in two thousand six, two thousand seven five. Okay, so
Speaker 1: they were charged with her murder. About the charges were
Speaker 1: dropped due to lack of evidence. Yeah, just a reoccurring theme.
Speaker 1: They're just yeah, there's not a lot of evidence, and
Speaker 1: yeah and so and and either these guys are really
Speaker 1: good but or you know, covering up evidence or you know,
Speaker 1: I guess if you toss the body somewhere and it's
Speaker 1: not found for a long time, but by the time
Speaker 1: they find the body, all the evidence has sort of
Speaker 1: been washed away. You know. That's so Connie Siler. So
Speaker 1: she was the last one to see Lopez alive. Lopez
Speaker 1: was the third victim, and she was involved with this
Speaker 1: pickup truck that was broken by this one cop to
Speaker 1: another cop who bought it and the audio, yeah, which
Speaker 1: we talked about just do. But she was perfectly involved
Speaker 1: because of her pickout truck. Maybe she used the money
Speaker 1: from that sale to pay off a bunch of bad
Speaker 1: checks and get herself out of trouble. So those are
Speaker 1: just some of the other major players. Now let's let's
Speaker 1: talk about a couple of the because I know you
Speaker 1: in the beginning you mentioned that there's some other murders
Speaker 1: and when we talk to Ethan, and this will come
Speaker 1: up in the interview, is that there is a huge
Speaker 1: murder rate and there's a huge unsolved murder rate. But
Speaker 1: her number of murders. But there's a couple of clearance right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: low clearance rate is a good way to put it.
Speaker 1: There's a couple of other facts that you should probably
Speaker 1: know before we get too far along, although we're already
Speaker 1: pretty far along. Uh. There is a death of a
Speaker 1: local man who is let Crochet, and he died on
Speaker 1: in April of two thousand and five, Croche was was
Speaker 1: killed in the term is has been dubbed a botched
Speaker 1: police raids. So there was a bunch of people at
Speaker 1: the house. They were all doing drugs. The cops came
Speaker 1: in and the electricity had been cut off. There's no electricity,
Speaker 1: and and for reasons unknown, the cops opened fire in
Speaker 1: the middle of this what was otherwise a peaceful drug raid. Yes,
Speaker 1: and killed this man and killed this man. And there
Speaker 1: have been theories positive that these women we know for
Speaker 1: sure at least one of the victims was there, but
Speaker 1: it's been positive that they all knew something about that
Speaker 1: police shooting and that was the reason that they were
Speaker 1: all targeted. Yeah, and in a small town, everybody talks.
Speaker 1: They won't talk to the cops, but they'll talk to
Speaker 1: each other and they will share information and red rumors
Speaker 1: like wildfire. Yeah. Although I gotta tell you though, I
Speaker 1: am I really don't buy into that theory personally, No,
Speaker 1: I think I think that's weak sauce. But I want
Speaker 1: to put it out there. Some people are aware of
Speaker 1: that one. Yeah, there is. There's there's two other deaths
Speaker 1: that I want to talk about. One of them is
Speaker 1: in relation to the fourth victim, which is whitneyd Wi
Speaker 1: And there was a man by the name of Harvey
Speaker 1: bird Dog Burier. I believe I'm pronouncing that right. I
Speaker 1: think it's either yeah, Okay, we'll go with that. Everything
Speaker 1: is kind of French and yeah, and that's why I'm
Speaker 1: not good with friendships. Yeah. So bird Dog was was
Speaker 1: shot to death. You're right, he was stabbed to death.
Speaker 1: I don't know what I'm on a shooting thing. Evidently
Speaker 1: he was stabbed to death after telling people that he
Speaker 1: was close to figuring out who was responsible for the
Speaker 1: Dubois killing Whitney Dubois. So he died because of that,
Speaker 1: and his murder has never been solved, well not necessarily
Speaker 1: because of that, but it is a little suspicious. Well again,
Speaker 1: it's you draw one another. He's walking around town telling
Speaker 1: everybody he's working on the case and he's figuring out
Speaker 1: and then suddenly he's stabbed down. Yeah. And then another
Speaker 1: victim that's on the periphety that I want to talk
Speaker 1: about is Ussell Carrier is a carrier carrier Okay, we'll
Speaker 1: just say carrier and we'll probably be wrong on that,
Speaker 1: but Russell Carrier, Uh, he after Crystal Zeno, how did
Speaker 1: we anyway? Crystal? After the Zenno murder, he reported seeing
Speaker 1: three men leaving the woods, leaving the woods where the
Speaker 1: body was found, leaving the woods where the body was found,
Speaker 1: and and he said that he had spotted these three men.
Speaker 1: And it is a man by the name of Irvin
Speaker 1: Tyson Morton, Eugene dog Ivory and Ricardo Tiger Williams. And
Speaker 1: those middle names are all nicknames. They are. Yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's that's a good thing to say. Those there, by
Speaker 1: the way, they are all close associatests Frankie Richard and
Speaker 1: all people the task force had named as suspects in
Speaker 1: the Lopez homicide. Well, actually no, um Irvin was the
Speaker 1: only one that had been specifically that I know had
Speaker 1: specifically been targeted in the Lopez murder. But they're all,
Speaker 1: as Joe said, they're all associates of Richard. And here's
Speaker 1: here's the the weird thing is that Um is Russell.
Speaker 1: His cause of death was he laid down in front
Speaker 1: of a train. Yeah, I know. That's that's one of
Speaker 1: my favorite napping spots is on railroad tracks. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he was snoozing on the tracks and the train came
Speaker 1: along and killed him. So nothing suspicious about that. You know.
Speaker 1: Some people said, oh, yeah it was a suicide, but like, no,
Speaker 1: I don't know that there's any documented cases of somebody
Speaker 1: laying in front of a train. People do it, you know,
Speaker 1: but but you freak out right, you have your last
Speaker 1: minute of like you're just like primal. Whatever we're going to,
Speaker 1: I think it would be that that commits suicide via
Speaker 1: train usually jump from just lay down because when you're
Speaker 1: laying down, you know your natural inclinations to think about things,
Speaker 1: so that it's very jumping in front of a train.
Speaker 1: You know, Suicide by train is very common in places
Speaker 1: like Japan, but in places like Louisiana, guns are pretty plentiful.
Speaker 1: This it would be a lot easier and quicker to
Speaker 1: grab a twelve gage just stick it in your mouth.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, you just run out to one
Speaker 1: of those canals yourself to the fishes. Yeah. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: lot of ways to do it, definitely better quicker, easier
Speaker 1: ways and laying down the tracks. So okay, I think
Speaker 1: are we all in agreement that we've kind of laid
Speaker 1: out as a skeleton overview the case. Yeah, do we
Speaker 1: want to just like quickly mentioned that a couple of
Speaker 1: the eight were interviewed about murders that happened previous to
Speaker 1: their murders. That's actually probably a very good thing. So
Speaker 1: Kristen Lopez, who there's a lot of connections, she seems
Speaker 1: to be one of the big more connected. She's kind
Speaker 1: of a hot spot. Yeah, she was interviewed about the
Speaker 1: Lynn Lewis murder, which was the first body that they found,
Speaker 1: and then I guess, just not so long after she
Speaker 1: was interviewed, she was murdered. And then Brown, who was
Speaker 1: the fifth person to be found, was interviewed about the
Speaker 1: Patterson murder, which was the second murder or the second
Speaker 1: body to have been found. Again, we don't totally know
Speaker 1: when the murders happened, we know when they were found. Um,
Speaker 1: so she was interviewed at that and then you know,
Speaker 1: if you kind of add the bird Dog and Russell
Speaker 1: potential murders in with that, I guess that would be
Speaker 1: about four people who were interviewed or said something about
Speaker 1: the case. And I think that's a company I think
Speaker 1: that does talk about this. It's much clearer, it's much clearer.
Speaker 1: But they foundation all knew each other we're all wrapped
Speaker 1: up in it. And it's also been positive. There's Sessaman
Speaker 1: said that they were all informants for the local, and
Speaker 1: that's thank you, Joe, because that's right where I was going,
Speaker 1: is that these ladies were all supposedly informants. I think
Speaker 1: that the clearest case, I believe it was um Nicole Guillory.
Speaker 1: She had a pretty serious rap sheet and she had
Speaker 1: a lot of things on her rap sheet, but she
Speaker 1: the d A decided not to follow it. And Joe,
Speaker 1: do you remember the phrase for when you're an informant
Speaker 1: and they don't want to follow through because you're an
Speaker 1: informant And I don't remember that. I don't remember that.
Speaker 1: There's a phrase. It's a Latin phrase, but essentially what
Speaker 1: it means is that we don't want to follow through
Speaker 1: because you're our informant, and we don't want to get
Speaker 1: you out of the field because then we're not getting
Speaker 1: information out of you anymore. And all these women had
Speaker 1: things like that against him. We're copscious, like, oh no,
Speaker 1: we don't, we don't want to pursue that case. So
Speaker 1: you beat that guy with an axe handle, Well, that's okay,
Speaker 1: that that John deserved it. We don't want to follow
Speaker 1: that case. It literally cases like that. So yeah, So
Speaker 1: one of the things that I suspect with these if
Speaker 1: if they were all informing to the local police, if
Speaker 1: you know, and and it appears that Jennings actually had
Speaker 1: really kind of a crime syndicate. There's kind of a
Speaker 1: mafia there, and they probably had at least one mole
Speaker 1: inside the police department, which means that if you're informing
Speaker 1: and on members of the crime syndicate, then the mall
Speaker 1: gets the information back to the crime syndicate, that would
Speaker 1: be possibly a factor and you're getting murdered somewhere later
Speaker 1: on down the line. All these women were informing, and
Speaker 1: I'm sure there was a mole at least one corrupt
Speaker 1: cop inside inside who was passing information along with the criminals.
Speaker 1: A little bit feel like we should talk about a
Speaker 1: lot of this police stuff that we're talking about our
Speaker 1: recent revelations based around Ethan Brown's investigation. So I think
Speaker 1: that a little bit we should say for a long
Speaker 1: time people thought that there was just a really crazy
Speaker 1: serial killer on the loose in Jennings, um that it
Speaker 1: was one person who was killing a lot of people.
Speaker 1: And it's still you know, it's still totally plausible that
Speaker 1: it's just one person, but that that person, you know,
Speaker 1: was on a killing spree from two thousand two thousand
Speaker 1: nine and moved to you know, I've even seen I've
Speaker 1: seen a lot of stuff in my research, um just
Speaker 1: looking through like you know, looking through threads on Reddit
Speaker 1: or looking at a are kind of internet investigation places
Speaker 1: where people kind of talk, you know, on forums, and
Speaker 1: a lot of people say, oh, yeah, the Jennings cases,
Speaker 1: the Jennings eight are connected to this serial killer that
Speaker 1: they apprehended in California two years later, and it was
Speaker 1: just like that this person was passing through there. So
Speaker 1: I think it's very and just decided to stick around
Speaker 1: for about four years. And yeah, well, I think it's
Speaker 1: important to mention that for a really long time that
Speaker 1: was the assumption, including the task forces assumption that there's
Speaker 1: just a crazy serial killer killing prostitutes. Jennings not an
Speaker 1: outrageous assumption. I agree with it. Yeah, yeah, it's not,
Speaker 1: but it's not not necessarily be the case. There might
Speaker 1: be multiple murders. I know that Frankie Shardaki is one
Speaker 1: of the local cops of being responsible for the murders
Speaker 1: because and I can't remember the cops name, and I
Speaker 1: don't want to repeat it because I don't want to
Speaker 1: slander anybody's day. But this guy apparently was a little
Speaker 1: bit kinky and none to frequent the prostitutes of Jennings
Speaker 1: and when the ladies he did and uh and when
Speaker 1: he died, the murder stopped. Now Frankie Shark, Frankie Shard
Speaker 1: claims that it was probably him. But at the same time,
Speaker 1: Ethan Brown, for example, thinks that doesn't place a lot
Speaker 1: of credibility in that. He doesn't. He thinks he's people
Speaker 1: believes that that cop possibly is in well, that one
Speaker 1: of the murders, but not all of them. Yeah, So
Speaker 1: I think I just think it's really important to talk
Speaker 1: about the fact that until Brown published his article, really
Speaker 1: in terms of the coverage that this was getting nationwide,
Speaker 1: it was always a serial kid. It's just a serial killer. No,
Speaker 1: that's that's a very good point to make, And thank you,
Speaker 1: I think miss that I totally forgot to bring that up.
Speaker 1: So that's perfect. I think, you know, while we're kind
Speaker 1: of talking, what we're talking about all this police corruption,
Speaker 1: but that police corruption didn't really come to light until
Speaker 1: I guess when did the article come out. It was
Speaker 1: in two thousand and ten, later than Ethan's article came out,
Speaker 1: relatively recently. I'm sorry, I'm getting my dates. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: by the way, I know I mentioned his book earlier,
Speaker 1: but he's been he's still since reading that writing that article,
Speaker 1: has been still on the case and talk to a
Speaker 1: lot more people and says that he's uncovered a lot
Speaker 1: more stuff. Yeah. So and unfortunately, so what we're gonna do.
Speaker 1: I think at this point it's a good time to
Speaker 1: to to bring in our interview. So we were lucky enough,
Speaker 1: like I said before, to to talk to Ethan. Uh.
Speaker 1: And there's a couple of things. So I know Devin,
Speaker 1: ironically enough, you wouldn't be here because she was in court.
Speaker 1: She was actually luckily off. She got a good lawyer.
Speaker 1: But yeah, so Devin wasn't able to join us. But
Speaker 1: Joe and I did talk to it. I have reviewed
Speaker 1: the interview. Uh, And there's a couple of things that
Speaker 1: I want to say, which is Ethan, we do bound
Speaker 1: it around a little bit, and we tried to take
Speaker 1: it in order. But this case is such a tangled
Speaker 1: mess that it may feel like we're jumping around, and
Speaker 1: that's not intentional. We're just following threads. That's why we
Speaker 1: try to lay everything out. Yeah, because it's already even
Speaker 1: just in this last you know, thirty minutes that we've
Speaker 1: been trying, however long we've been talking about it, it's
Speaker 1: a mess. You are absolutely, by the way, I believe
Speaker 1: that these murders are never going to be solved. Yeah.
Speaker 1: The the other thing I will tell you is, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, usually we get really lucky when we're recording
Speaker 1: an interview. Unfortunately, our connection on this interview wasn't the best,
Speaker 1: and that's going to happen. There's just nothing we can
Speaker 1: do to control that. So there are times that the
Speaker 1: audio is a little rough, and we've done what we
Speaker 1: could to clean that up. So bear with us as
Speaker 1: as the interview plays out. Sometimes it gets a little funny.
Speaker 1: That's what happens when you record a phone call. But
Speaker 1: with that having been said, let's go ahead and let's
Speaker 1: talk to Ethan and then we'll we'll talk some more
Speaker 1: about the case. Okay, So to start off with what
Speaker 1: I was kind of hoping is, because this story is
Speaker 1: pretty convoluted, is the best description that I can come
Speaker 1: up with. I was hoping you could kind of walk
Speaker 1: us through the story a little bit just to to
Speaker 1: help kind of illustrate it for our listeners. Sure, I'll
Speaker 1: walk you through the Barrett Mowings version of it first perfect.
Speaker 1: So from two thousand and five to two thousand and nine,
Speaker 1: the bodies of eight female prostitute. We're found um in
Speaker 1: swamps and kind of abandoned roads and and and voided
Speaker 1: areas of a town called Jennings, which is the parish
Speaker 1: seat of Jefferson Davis Parish in Louisiana. UM. In Louisiana,
Speaker 1: what we have is parishes, not county. So in other
Speaker 1: states you would have come from Maryland, you would have
Speaker 1: Montgomery County for example, right, So in Louisiana and you
Speaker 1: have parishes. So Jennings is the parish to Jefferson Davis Parish,
Speaker 1: and Jefferson Davis Parish is a tiny parish in the
Speaker 1: very very far west corner of Louisiana's exactly. It's very
Speaker 1: close to Texas, UM. And the population is only about
Speaker 1: thirty thousand for the entire parish, and the population of
Speaker 1: Jennings is about ten thousand, so it's even smaller. So again, oh,
Speaker 1: I just say I took a little, a little street
Speaker 1: tour on Google street View yesterday, and it's not a
Speaker 1: bad looking little town. Um, but I noticed there was nobody.
Speaker 1: There was nobody out and about. It was like you
Speaker 1: see cars driving. I always saw one human being on
Speaker 1: a sidewalk. It was kind of scary. Right. It's a
Speaker 1: very very small town. And what's interesting about it is
Speaker 1: that the it's a it's a very divided town. The
Speaker 1: north side of Jennings has things like the library, the courthouse,
Speaker 1: a few car dealerships, you know, sort of typical small
Speaker 1: town stuff. Right. The south side, which is actually divided
Speaker 1: by railroad tracks, so the cliche across the tracks, it's
Speaker 1: completely truelier. South side, uh, conversely, is abandoned homes, trailer parks,
Speaker 1: very very small single family homes and things like that.
Speaker 1: So it's it's quite different than the north side. Like
Speaker 1: of a race racially segregated town. I mean, it's like
Speaker 1: it's not. And that's also what's interesting. It's segregated by class. Um.
Speaker 1: South side Jennings is actually African American and white. And
Speaker 1: we talk to folks I've actually been doing. I have
Speaker 1: a book deal to write a book about this case.
Speaker 1: I've been doing a lot of a lot more investigations
Speaker 1: since the article came out, and you hear phrases used
Speaker 1: by south side residents talk about the north side like
Speaker 1: high class, high falutin and things like that. So it's
Speaker 1: a class devide, it's not a race divide. South Side
Speaker 1: Jennings is very racially mixed actually, so you have these
Speaker 1: two separate sides of the town and south Buds Tennings
Speaker 1: is where all of these women who were killed. Uh,
Speaker 1: we're firm, so there's very bare bones. Uh. Sketch of
Speaker 1: the story is that from two thousand and five or
Speaker 1: two thousand and nine, eight female obstitutes, all from the
Speaker 1: south side of Jennings were killed and their bodies were
Speaker 1: dumped either in canals I'm kind of dirt roads or
Speaker 1: in wooded areas uh in and around James so um
Speaker 1: and and all. And it's important to note, obviously that
Speaker 1: every single one of those murders is unsolved. Um. At
Speaker 1: one time, very briefly, charges were brought in one of
Speaker 1: the cases, the case of a woman named Kristin Darry Lopez,
Speaker 1: who was murdered in two thousand and seven, and charges
Speaker 1: were brought against the very notorious temp on the south
Speaker 1: Side and Frankie re Shard, But those charges were very
Speaker 1: quickly dropped, so all the homicides are un sold. But
Speaker 1: the charges, I guess we shared. Those are based on
Speaker 1: what's your name is? Tracy? Tracy chefs On is very interesting.
Speaker 1: She's the cousin of the first them, whose name is
Speaker 1: Florida chefs Song. And um, she was for a very
Speaker 1: long time a pimp, I'm sorry at a prostitute working
Speaker 1: for Rechard's attempt and the reason it's not entirely clear
Speaker 1: why the charges against Rechard were dropped, but it appears
Speaker 1: to be that she provided inconsistent statements to the police
Speaker 1: regarding that homicide. Yeah, now she she's she originally told
Speaker 1: the police that she had witnessed Richard and Hannah Connor
Speaker 1: murder Kristin Lopez next to a canal. Yeah, and correct.
Speaker 1: Hannah Connor is a kind of a god niece Frankie Eschard,
Speaker 1: who was also very close with all the murdered women. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so the was it Tracy is a chess On? Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: Tracy just on that now she was a source? Was
Speaker 1: the source also the accusation about the pickup truck No,
Speaker 1: she was not in in in two thousand and seven
Speaker 1: and advert about us a bid in my piece, a
Speaker 1: detective with the Jennings Police named Jess the Ewing interviewed
Speaker 1: to female inmates who provided statements to him in which
Speaker 1: they talked about Hannah Connor confessing her involvement in at
Speaker 1: least one of the homicides and I think perhaps two
Speaker 1: as well. And they all I mean inmates also said
Speaker 1: that Connor confessed to them that Frankie Eschard worked with
Speaker 1: actually the chief criminal investigator of the Jefferson Davis Parash
Speaker 1: Sheriff's Office, a guy named Warren Gary, to dispose of
Speaker 1: DNA evidence in the Kristen Garry lott Is homicide. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but but she supposedly was murdered by the banks of
Speaker 1: the canal where she was found. Correct, that's according to
Speaker 1: the Shafton statement. It's not clear that that's correct. It's
Speaker 1: complicated little town. It seems like everybody was informing on everybody.
Speaker 1: It's a it's a very complex town. But the more
Speaker 1: time I've spend there, the more I realized that it's
Speaker 1: it's a town that's very much doomed by its geography,
Speaker 1: meaning that Jennings is literally like if you're driving on
Speaker 1: I ten and a big highway that connects um Houston
Speaker 1: to New Orleans. If you're driving on I tent, it's
Speaker 1: like a driveway kind of off ten. It's literally on
Speaker 1: the highway. And I've spent in that area is a
Speaker 1: major major drug trafficking route. And then the amount of
Speaker 1: drug us coming through Jennings and around Jennings is staggering.
Speaker 1: And it's cocaine, it's craft, it's prescription pills, it's everything.
Speaker 1: So Jennings is really really that's kind of the heart
Speaker 1: of the drug trade in that area. And I've actually
Speaker 1: since my pieces has around, I've actually talked to people
Speaker 1: who were in the drug game for a long time
Speaker 1: and Jennings and you know, they they would tell me
Speaker 1: stories about you know, oh, you know everybody, and Jennings
Speaker 1: knows that, like you know, when you're growing up there
Speaker 1: that the way to get money in the easiest way
Speaker 1: to get money is to make these little drug runs
Speaker 1: Houston for cocaine or prescription pills and bring them back
Speaker 1: to Jennings Um. And it's very easy to do, it's
Speaker 1: very available, and it's very lucrat so Jennings is a
Speaker 1: tiny town that has this tiny town setting in some
Speaker 1: trees stall like from some of the images that you
Speaker 1: looked at online. You know, you look at the downtown
Speaker 1: and there's the post office in the library of the courthouse,
Speaker 1: and it looks like a small town that could be anywhere.
Speaker 1: But but yet it's it's really kind of a bull
Speaker 1: dye area as far as the drug trade is concerned.
Speaker 1: That's a shame. That's sort of a side question, which
Speaker 1: is while you were there doing your investigation, did you
Speaker 1: pack heat? No? I did not. Yeah, I gotta ask
Speaker 1: a lot of people thretten me or you know, uh,
Speaker 1: did I bring kound of me? And whatnot? When I
Speaker 1: go out there there. And actually, interestingly, as I was
Speaker 1: doing this piece, this is completely changed since the peace
Speaker 1: came out, But prior to the piece coming out, I
Speaker 1: was sort of looked at as a you know, as
Speaker 1: a kind of They're like, oh, well, there's this strange person,
Speaker 1: you know, coming to town a lot um not from here.
Speaker 1: No one paid attention to what's going on here. Isn't
Speaker 1: it sort of interesting that this guy is coming here.
Speaker 1: You know, it was sort of you know, I was
Speaker 1: actually treated quite well by everybody that I saw for
Speaker 1: this piece, including law enforcement, because they had no idea
Speaker 1: what to make of me. And I think also just
Speaker 1: as importantly, this this case has been covered quite a
Speaker 1: bit in the media. There's Seen End covered it, The
Speaker 1: Times covered it, and everybody covered it from the same perspective,
Speaker 1: which was there's a crazy serial killer loose in the
Speaker 1: swamps of southwest Louisiana and that's it. And I think
Speaker 1: they just expected me to do that piece that everybody
Speaker 1: else has done, and you know, they were quite surprised
Speaker 1: when that was not the piece that that that I did,
Speaker 1: and very unhappy about that too. So they were unhappy
Speaker 1: about Oh yeah, I mean the people of Jennings overwhelmingly,
Speaker 1: and I've worked from a lot of people overwhelmingly we're
Speaker 1: very happy about it. The d a's office, the Sheriff's office,
Speaker 1: the police department were extremely unhappy about yeah, extremely And yeah,
Speaker 1: So since the piece has come out, I've had to
Speaker 1: radically change how I go out there because it is
Speaker 1: you know, there is a legitimate thread of many people
Speaker 1: out there wanting to do harm to me. So since, yeah,
Speaker 1: since the Pieza has come out, I've had to really
Speaker 1: limited my time out there I need with people in
Speaker 1: places like Lafayette or in Calfish you parish, which is
Speaker 1: the parish next to Jeff David's parish. So I really
Speaker 1: have to radically alter how I move out there. And
Speaker 1: in fact, for the first at least two months, maybe
Speaker 1: even three months after the peace was out, I didn't
Speaker 1: even go near there. It's completely stayed away, just that
Speaker 1: one can to have a cool down a bit. But yeah,
Speaker 1: so now, yeah, I do have to really watch myself.
Speaker 1: I don't know though that having a gun necessarily it's
Speaker 1: going to be the best thing for me out there.
Speaker 1: I think it's more about moving in very smart ways
Speaker 1: out there when to go out there, that that makes
Speaker 1: a lot of sense. Now, um, I know that one
Speaker 1: of the things that you found when you were in
Speaker 1: your piece is there was a lot of police involvement
Speaker 1: maybe nefarious is the word I would use. That people
Speaker 1: hadn't made the connections before And is that kind of
Speaker 1: what really rankled the feathers. Yes, particularly the information that
Speaker 1: I got about Warren Gary and his involvement and disposing
Speaker 1: of the DNA evidence in the Christin Gary Lopez case
Speaker 1: and the other piece that makes them very unhappy. Which
Speaker 1: they're stuck with and uh, you know, and these people
Speaker 1: are not my witnesses, they're their witnesses. Was I obtained
Speaker 1: dozens of task Force interviews witness interviews, as the task
Speaker 1: force is a multi agency task force that was created
Speaker 1: in two thousand and eight to investigate these homicides. And
Speaker 1: I obtained dozens of task Force witness interviews, and in
Speaker 1: these witness interviews, witnesses the name specific cops who they
Speaker 1: believed were involved in murders. And what so upset them
Speaker 1: about this was that for years, and going back probably
Speaker 1: the two thousand and seven or so, when the power
Speaker 1: when people in town started wondering about law enforcement and
Speaker 1: their potential involvement in this. Law enforcement's response was, well,
Speaker 1: you're just wondering about this. You're just hearing rumors. There's
Speaker 1: nothing to it. There's nothing to this at all. Don't worry,
Speaker 1: you're just hearing rumors. And what I did was by
Speaker 1: obtaining those task course interviews where their witnesses and I
Speaker 1: emphasize that a lot, it's it's their witnesses, not my witnesses,
Speaker 1: where their witnesses nain specific cops aspects, and that as
Speaker 1: said us so much because They can no longer say
Speaker 1: it's a rumor, right when your own witnesses are coming
Speaker 1: forward and saying, for example, Deputy Danny Berry, who is
Speaker 1: a deputy who's actually now deceased, was involved in these homicides.
Speaker 1: And you can't say it's just some guys or girls
Speaker 1: or whoever talking on the street about Danny Berry. These
Speaker 1: are actual witness statement that completely freaked them out, and
Speaker 1: it's now just stroy their narrative. This is the narrative
Speaker 1: that they have voisted upon this case. And if and
Speaker 1: this is the narrative that they definitely want the town
Speaker 1: to believe, is that anything you hear about lawforcement just
Speaker 1: a rumor, Well, that's absolutely you know, crap, and it's
Speaker 1: proven by their own witness interviews. So you know, it
Speaker 1: was really the two two pieces of one, the warrant,
Speaker 1: the statements about Warren Gary and again those are their witnesses,
Speaker 1: not mine. Those are witnessed state statements taken by the
Speaker 1: Jennings Police. And then it was to the witness statements
Speaker 1: taken by the task force where cops and Sheriff Staptise
Speaker 1: are named to suspects, actually destroyed their narrative about how
Speaker 1: many how many different law enforcement personnel were named. Um,
Speaker 1: I would say about four to five, Okay, that includes
Speaker 1: Warren Gary and Danny Berry. Warren Gary, Danny Barry, the
Speaker 1: the former warden of the parish jail, a guy named
Speaker 1: Terry Guillory, hitch former wife paul Guillory, who was the
Speaker 1: jeopudy with the Sheriff's office. And there's quite a few
Speaker 1: ask and many of those people are very high ranking.
Speaker 1: I mean, you're talking about war and Gary was the
Speaker 1: chief criminal investigator for the Sheriff's office, and Terry Guillory
Speaker 1: is the warden of the parish too. So speaking of
Speaker 1: Paula Guillory, I was kind of curious you interviewed her.
Speaker 1: So she got fired for mishandley evidence. Um, but it
Speaker 1: looks like yeah, And I read the Sheriff's memo and everything,
Speaker 1: and it sounds he named a whole lot of the
Speaker 1: whole list of grievances against her, including Louise. And I
Speaker 1: would say, even though he fired her really quickly, there
Speaker 1: was never any investigation or prosecution. So do you think
Speaker 1: he fired her simply for the straight up reasons he specified,
Speaker 1: or because perhaps she wasn't on board with the cover up,
Speaker 1: or perhaps on the other side, maybe he thought that
Speaker 1: she was involved in the crimes and wanted her just gone.
Speaker 1: You know, it's really hard to stay because there's a
Speaker 1: lot of competing narratives about polic Guillary, including from Paul
Speaker 1: Guillary yourself. I interviewed her for my piece briefly, and
Speaker 1: she claimed to me that the missing evidence that she
Speaker 1: was fired for was evidence seized in a raid on
Speaker 1: Frankie Richard, and Frankie Richard's the prime suspect and in
Speaker 1: several of these murders from Frankie. This was a raid
Speaker 1: on Frankie Richard's house. So she told me that she
Speaker 1: turned on the evidence and it simply disappeared. She didn't
Speaker 1: know what happened to it. She said that she was
Speaker 1: then terminated and actually the personnel file that I obtained
Speaker 1: on her, which contained the investigation into her activities, she
Speaker 1: had actually never even seen that, which I thought was
Speaker 1: really interesting too, and like I was reading bits of
Speaker 1: it to her to have her respond right to the
Speaker 1: allegations and the investigation, and she had never heard any
Speaker 1: ofthing before. So she was very quickly moved out of
Speaker 1: her job. And you know, if you believe the investigation,
Speaker 1: the internal investigation into her. It's you know that the
Speaker 1: reason is is that she took something like three thousand
Speaker 1: dollars that was taken into evidence and essentially just stole it.
Speaker 1: And is that what happened? Well, I don't know, you know, um,
Speaker 1: you know, she says that's not what happened. The sheriff's
Speaker 1: office says that is what happened. When I interviewed Frankie
Speaker 1: Richard about it and I quoted him about this and
Speaker 1: the peace, he made a comment which he meant kind
Speaker 1: of as a joke, but I took actually very seriously,
Speaker 1: which which was, you know, I want to thank Paula
Speaker 1: Guillory pursuing evidence in that case because it caused the
Speaker 1: charges against me and my mom to get drunk. And
Speaker 1: Paula and she was pretty upset when she heard that,
Speaker 1: wasn't she She wasnt really upset. She I read that
Speaker 1: quote to her and she was very upset about that.
Speaker 1: You know, she claimed she's a just a good cop
Speaker 1: who was doing her job and really wanted to go
Speaker 1: after Frankie Richard. And then I have a number of people,
Speaker 1: including the private investigator who's working on the case, Kurt Bnard,
Speaker 1: who have told me that right around the time that
Speaker 1: Bola Guillory disappeared, that evidence she was a deserved at
Speaker 1: Frankie Richard's home socializing with him, and she was also
Speaker 1: observed at a house on the south side of Jennings
Speaker 1: that was basically a crack house where all the just
Speaker 1: about all the women hung out. She was deserved at
Speaker 1: this crack house socializing with a number of people there.
Speaker 1: Uh so, well, I was I was gonna ask, you know,
Speaker 1: we've we've kind of dipped her tone in the water.
Speaker 1: About Frankie ree Shard, he seems to be at the
Speaker 1: middle of a lot of this stuff, and I'm just
Speaker 1: kind of I haven't been able to wrap my brain around,
Speaker 1: like what exactly is his involvement in all of this? Right,
Speaker 1: he is at the center of Frankie is at the
Speaker 1: center of the entire case because for a number of reasons. One,
Speaker 1: you know, and this is biazone admission, Like he he
Speaker 1: pimped out pretty much all but one of the women um,
Speaker 1: the one exclusion being Ernestine Patterson Um, one of the
Speaker 1: early victims in two thousand and five. So he pimped
Speaker 1: out all of these women. He also pimped them out
Speaker 1: from one specific place, and I wrote about this a
Speaker 1: bit in my piece, which is a motel that's right
Speaker 1: on I tend called the Boudreau in so he and
Speaker 1: those women were doing their business out of the boucher
Speaker 1: in Um. He was also again by his own admission,
Speaker 1: and at least two of the cases, and those with
Speaker 1: the Kristin Lopez and what he do blah. He was
Speaker 1: one of the lost people to be seen with at
Speaker 1: least two of the victims. And then he also again
Speaker 1: by his own admission, had pretty significant fights through disagreements
Speaker 1: with at least two of the victims right before they
Speaker 1: were killed over drugs and money. So you have all that,
Speaker 1: and then you also have the fact that Frankie's relationship
Speaker 1: with the both the Task Force and the Sheriff's office
Speaker 1: is very interesting and suggest that he's and in both
Speaker 1: informant for them and also someone who assists them in
Speaker 1: covering up the things that they do. I obtained an
Speaker 1: email exchange between Kirkmanard, the private investigator on the case,
Speaker 1: and one of the top ranking members of the task Force,
Speaker 1: where Manard says that he sent two witnesses over to
Speaker 1: be interviewed by the Task Force and the task force
Speaker 1: told these witnesses that Frankie Richard works for them. You
Speaker 1: also have the witness statements that were taken by the
Speaker 1: Jennings Police where the witnesses say that Frankie Richard worked
Speaker 1: hand in hand with Chief criminal Investigator Warren Gary disposed
Speaker 1: of DNA evidence in the Christin Garry Lopez case. So
Speaker 1: Frankie is deeply connected to the women, and he's deeply
Speaker 1: connected the law enforcement. He's very much of the center
Speaker 1: of this case. And he's spent accused of course, two
Speaker 1: of the murders, Kristin Lopez and Whitney Boa. He was
Speaker 1: charged in Kristin Lopez, he's never charged and Whitney do Ba.
Speaker 1: The circumstances around the death of Whitney do Bo highly
Speaker 1: suggestive he was involved because she was found in kind
Speaker 1: of a swampy area that has a little crawfish ponds,
Speaker 1: very very desolate area, and she was found on the
Speaker 1: road near one of these ponds by a guy who
Speaker 1: works kind of on the streets for Frankie Richard, and
Speaker 1: the guy claimed to have found her and claims those
Speaker 1: seen or something like a half mile away from where
Speaker 1: she was um And it's it just seems highly implausible
Speaker 1: that this guy would just suddenly pop up, you know,
Speaker 1: in this desolate area where there's nothing around, and fine,
Speaker 1: when you do, I don't winly happened through Frankie Chard too.
Speaker 1: Actually at the same time, you know, maybe he actually
Speaker 1: legitimately did. Because if he'd just gone out there and
Speaker 1: disposed of the body and then turns around and says, hey,
Speaker 1: I found a body, you know, I would tend to
Speaker 1: associate myself from dead bodies, you know, I'm involved. What
Speaker 1: one would think though, And that's the point, although there
Speaker 1: is actually this odd kind of phenomenon of and I
Speaker 1: have this in a case that I'm another case that
Speaker 1: I'm working on, where someone who's involved the murder finds
Speaker 1: a body or claim to find a body, and they
Speaker 1: believe that it will actually take suspicion off of them,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. You know, I go, well,
Speaker 1: I just look at me. I'm part of the search party,
Speaker 1: and I just happened to find this body. The man
Speaker 1: who found Duba, his name is Jamie Trahan. He's a
Speaker 1: very close associated Frankie Reech Shard, and he presented it
Speaker 1: and I spoke to do was a number of people
Speaker 1: in the do Wa family about the way Trahan presented
Speaker 1: himself to them after finding her body. And you know,
Speaker 1: he presented it as, oh, I was just out here
Speaker 1: and you know, I want to I'm just trying to help,
Speaker 1: and I'm you know, I'm so sorry, and and and
Speaker 1: at one point he even offered to put down quite
Speaker 1: a bit of money to help pay for her funeral extent,
Speaker 1: which the doo Bos family also found incredibly suspicious. That
Speaker 1: you know, you would think if you had any involvement
Speaker 1: in something like this, you'd want to be nowhere near it,
Speaker 1: especially if you were somebody was so closely connected to
Speaker 1: Frankie re Shark. But I think some sometimes people think
Speaker 1: that by presenting themselves is like, oh, that's like innocent
Speaker 1: person who happened stumble upon this horrible thing that that
Speaker 1: that that moves the spotlight off of them some ways, Yeah,
Speaker 1: doesn't make sense to me. But yeah, and and you know,
Speaker 1: as we're talking about Frankie Richard's associates, I remember you
Speaker 1: had there was a part in there where you were
Speaker 1: talking about Brittany Gary when uh and the three men
Speaker 1: that were seeing leaving the woods where she was found.
Speaker 1: What was it? Irvin Eugene and Ricardo. Yeah, that was
Speaker 1: actually not that was Crystal Shade ben Wah. That was
Speaker 1: a different victim. Yeah, And and three men we're seeing
Speaker 1: she was found in this wooded area on the outscripts
Speaker 1: of Jennings, and three men closely associated with the restart
Speaker 1: we're seeing were leaving the wooded area after her murder.
Speaker 1: And the man who saw them was a man named
Speaker 1: Rousel carry a and carry a mysteriously was run over
Speaker 1: by a train and Jennings Yeah, yeah, as soon after that,
Speaker 1: witness identification and law enforcement said it was a suicide
Speaker 1: and his family does not believe it was a suicide.
Speaker 1: Now did he say did he? At one point, I'm
Speaker 1: I'm racking my brain here, I thought that when he
Speaker 1: was making this Eavens, did he tell somebody else that
Speaker 1: he was trying to figure out who had done it?
Speaker 1: And he had almost figured it out. That was the
Speaker 1: other guy that was the brother of one of the
Speaker 1: that wasn't yet another person Actually yeah, that was a
Speaker 1: drug dealer named Harvey bird Dog Burleigh who was a
Speaker 1: very close, very close to the due Boas family. And
Speaker 1: he said that he was working the streets and gathering
Speaker 1: tips on the homicides, and then he was stabbed to
Speaker 1: death and Jennings and his murder he was death and
Speaker 1: Jennings I believe in two thousand and seven, and his
Speaker 1: murders unsolved as well. Yeah, I was gonna say quickly.
Speaker 1: That's another piece of his story that's so fascinating, which
Speaker 1: is you have eight unsolved homicides in a town of
Speaker 1: ten thousand people, which is extraordinary, exactly eight homicides and
Speaker 1: that side of the town is extraordinary in itself, but
Speaker 1: the fact that all of them are unsolved more extraordinary.
Speaker 1: But what has even another level of craziness to this,
Speaker 1: to this story, is you have homicides like bird dogs
Speaker 1: that are unsolved, and there's quite a few of them.
Speaker 1: So if you were to add up the eight women
Speaker 1: plus the other unsolved homicides in town over the past
Speaker 1: decade or so, comes close to twenty. Oh. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: didn't really do it was that high. Yeah, it's really
Speaker 1: just truly remark what and I can say, and I've
Speaker 1: been writing about crime and working in this field for
Speaker 1: a very long time, never seen anything like this anywhere.
Speaker 1: And they're both in terms of the levels of law
Speaker 1: enforcement corruption and the number of homicides and the number
Speaker 1: of unsolved timicide it's not just popular. It doesn't sound
Speaker 1: like they solved any homicides ever in that town. They
Speaker 1: actually had a homicide early this year that they solved. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's pretty unusual. My interest in this story actually this
Speaker 1: had to be taken out of peace just for Space Tree,
Speaker 1: and was really began in two thousand and eleven. I
Speaker 1: was out there um and visiting with Kirkmanard, the private investigator,
Speaker 1: just to get a sense of the story. And actually
Speaker 1: within days of being out there, UM there was a
Speaker 1: murder of of of a drug dealer Engenna named bow Legs.
Speaker 1: And I actually just met bow Legs the night before
Speaker 1: he was murdered, and you know, it was pretty amazing,
Speaker 1: and this had never happened to be before Right interviewed.
Speaker 1: Right was introduced to somebody in their murder the next day,
Speaker 1: and that that murder, which dates back to either June
Speaker 1: or July of two thousand and eleven, members also unsolved.
Speaker 1: And bow Legs also, by the way, dated at least
Speaker 1: two of the women who were killed in this case.
Speaker 1: That when you intervated bow Legs, did he give you
Speaker 1: any any useful information? And it was it was just
Speaker 1: a introducing kind of introduce, very brief introduction to him.
Speaker 1: I didn't actually interview that um my trip back then,
Speaker 1: which was just essentially meeting people. Um so the Legs
Speaker 1: wasn't saying a powder keg of information and he had
Speaker 1: to be silenced. More likely he was, you don't think so.
Speaker 1: I think he was, you know, a casulty as some
Speaker 1: sort of drug beef. But but you know, his murders
Speaker 1: in solved, just like the rest of them, which is interesting. Now,
Speaker 1: another another piece in this whole story is that I
Speaker 1: believe in correct me if I'm wrong. Here's that of
Speaker 1: these eight women, a number of them were present at
Speaker 1: a police shooting prior to their deaths, and so we're
Speaker 1: all of them are just a couple of them. I
Speaker 1: thought it was just one, just a couple of them, Yeah,
Speaker 1: just just I've been able to confirm just one, which
Speaker 1: is Kristen Gary Lopez. I've heard though that it was
Speaker 1: two or perhaps three. Uh. It was a shooting from
Speaker 1: April of two thousand and five the Bots drug Rade
Speaker 1: in South Jennings that was carried out by the d
Speaker 1: a's Office Louisiana Probation and Parole. The Sheriff's office, and
Speaker 1: I believed the police department. They rated a drug house
Speaker 1: in South Jennings. Drug HOUSEE was like complete completely shrouded
Speaker 1: in darkness when they rated it. I don't think even
Speaker 1: the electricity was on. And for one, for some unknown reason,
Speaker 1: one of the probation and prowl agents opened fire on
Speaker 1: a man named Leonard Crochet, who apparently with us to say,
Speaker 1: had his hands up when he was when he was shot.
Speaker 1: But regardless of whether you know, there's dispeaed about whether
Speaker 1: or not he had his hands up. But but no
Speaker 1: one disputes the fact. Actually, and this is interesting because
Speaker 1: I obtained the Louisiana State Police report on an incident.
Speaker 1: No one, no one, no one disputes the fact that
Speaker 1: he was unarmed when he was shot to death. There
Speaker 1: was he had no weapons on him or near him,
Speaker 1: and he was shot to death. And at least one
Speaker 1: and perhaps more of the women who would later be
Speaker 1: killed were witnessed that incident. And I also know for
Speaker 1: a fact that, for example, Christin Gary Lopez, who was
Speaker 1: murdered two thousand and seven UM, she was brought in
Speaker 1: by cops and interviewed about it. I believe the Lauretta
Speaker 1: Cheffon murdered the first victim in two thousand and five.
Speaker 1: So there's a pattern of these women being being uh
Speaker 1: interviewed as witnesses and other homicides and then getting killed.
Speaker 1: And and is there any connection or any thought that
Speaker 1: whatever statements they gave or what led to their death,
Speaker 1: if if we're going with the police are definitely deeply
Speaker 1: involved the responsible kind of aspect of it. Yes, I
Speaker 1: believe so, I believe. I believe you know, I think
Speaker 1: you he has had an over and over again. And
Speaker 1: you see it with Lopez being interviewed in uh learn
Speaker 1: of Schafson. You see it in Laconia Brown who's a victim,
Speaker 1: and two thousand and eight she was interviewed about the
Speaker 1: two thousand and uh five homicide, or Mistine Patterson. You
Speaker 1: see that pattern over and over again where these women
Speaker 1: are witnesses. Then the other pattern that you see over
Speaker 1: and over again is that the women, just before they
Speaker 1: were killed, I would say, I know who's doing this.
Speaker 1: The police are involved. I fear from my life, and
Speaker 1: many of them says I know I'm going to die,
Speaker 1: and then they will be killed. I sort of wonder
Speaker 1: why more than just leave towns are going to hiding
Speaker 1: or something. Yeah, that's a good question. I mean I
Speaker 1: feel you know, you know, we're talking about the population
Speaker 1: that's like extremely poor and it has very very few options.
Speaker 1: So I think they were just sort of stuck where
Speaker 1: they were leaving option. Yeah, yeah, not a not an
Speaker 1: easy option. That said. One. One thing that's interesting to me,
Speaker 1: particularly since the piece came out and doing the investigation
Speaker 1: that I'm doing, just that there are quite a few
Speaker 1: survivors of that of that era who do know quite
Speaker 1: a bit and they're still you know, they're still around,
Speaker 1: you know, so, um, they didn't get everybody. You know
Speaker 1: that there are a number of women who were in
Speaker 1: that scene who do know quite a bit about what happened,
Speaker 1: who are still Yeah, because the I wanted to bring
Speaker 1: me back. I wanted to come back for a minute
Speaker 1: to Danny Barry. You know, as you know, uh, Richard
Speaker 1: said that Barry was the killer because they all stopped
Speaker 1: in two thousand nine when he died, correct, I believe, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think he died in two thousand and ten, but yeah,
Speaker 1: but the last palmicide was two thousand and nine. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, I think Rechart as his own purpose for
Speaker 1: making that claim, which is it's him. My My sense
Speaker 1: of Danny Barry, especially from reading all the witness interviews
Speaker 1: about him that the Task Force conducted, is that Barry
Speaker 1: was deeply involved in the prostitution scene in South Jennings,
Speaker 1: which is where all these women were from. He would
Speaker 1: pick up these women and bring them back to his house,
Speaker 1: and at least one witness pass force witness talked about
Speaker 1: Barry having some sort of dungeon in his house with
Speaker 1: change and I assume that was one of the prostitutes
Speaker 1: that he took back home with him. Yeah, And I'm
Speaker 1: developing now, I don't have you know, I'm not there yet,
Speaker 1: but I'm developing information as I go about his involvement
Speaker 1: in the his puzzle involvement, I should say, and in
Speaker 1: the murder of Brindy Gary, the very young seventeen year
Speaker 1: old victims who was killed old in two thousand and eight. Well,
Speaker 1: and and his involvement. I mean, if we if we
Speaker 1: believe Richard the task Force, I understand it's kind of
Speaker 1: working on the assumption that it's you know, the one
Speaker 1: mad killer and he would fit that bill easily, wouldn't
Speaker 1: he if based on these statements of the dungeon. Barry
Speaker 1: would fit that bill for my investigation. I don't believe
Speaker 1: that he is the killer. I don't believe and then
Speaker 1: I say this in the piece, that there is one killer.
Speaker 1: I think it's a number of people. I think that
Speaker 1: you could cone in on Barry for at least one
Speaker 1: of the homicides. But I don't think that he's responsible
Speaker 1: for all of them, even though he fits as you say,
Speaker 1: if it's the bill, because he's deceased. He's a an
Speaker 1: easy mark. Correct, He's a very easy mark. Have you
Speaker 1: been able to talk to his widow? I haven't yet.
Speaker 1: Know that's something I want to do. I haven't yet
Speaker 1: talked at his widow. He gave a statement before he
Speaker 1: died to the task Force that was extremely unilluminating mode
Speaker 1: and it was unhelpful, primarily because the task Force is
Speaker 1: so terrible for conducting interviews. Um. He also told the
Speaker 1: task Force that his wife, now Wadow, was refusing to
Speaker 1: be interviewed by the task course. Now the private investigator, Kirkmanard,
Speaker 1: that's his name, correct, Correct? What what has been his contribution?
Speaker 1: Because I've seen stuff about him, but I'm not really
Speaker 1: clear on exactly what he's doing good. Question what Manard
Speaker 1: is doing, And I don't want to speak for him,
Speaker 1: but but this is my impression of what he's doing,
Speaker 1: is that he's able to talk to a number of
Speaker 1: people who pass would not talk otherwise, and he then
Speaker 1: forwards those people directly to the task Force. So essentially,
Speaker 1: what he is is like a kind of a conduit
Speaker 1: between people on the street who might not feel comfortable
Speaker 1: going correct good to the task Force to what I'm saying,
Speaker 1: and it's kind of a neutral party for them. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he's kind of futral party, and and and that, and
Speaker 1: that's what he's doing. You know, he's in a very
Speaker 1: awkward position now though after he had sent these two
Speaker 1: witnesses to the task Force and they told these witnesses
Speaker 1: things like Frankie Richard works for us. He's he's in
Speaker 1: an awkward position because I don't think he knows what
Speaker 1: to make of the task Force now. And I wouldn't
Speaker 1: want to be in his position either, because it's a
Speaker 1: strange place to be sending witnesses to a task force
Speaker 1: that has a huge problem. You know what I mean,
Speaker 1: I mean to me, to me, the task Force, which
Speaker 1: is dominated by the sheriff's office. By the way, um
Speaker 1: and I mentioned that in the piece, really is not
Speaker 1: to be has zero credibility in my in my view,
Speaker 1: because what you have is a task force that's dominated
Speaker 1: by the sheriff's office taking witness statements, and in the
Speaker 1: witness statements, the witnesses are saying Deputy so and so
Speaker 1: and Deputy so and so are involved in the homicides,
Speaker 1: and the people taking those statements are co workers of
Speaker 1: the people implicated in the murders. It's really it's just,
Speaker 1: I mean, it's couldn't be more of a clear conflict
Speaker 1: of interest, and it couldn't be more of a clear problem, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, a huge problem. You know, how is a
Speaker 1: task force supposed to conduct an investigation when all of
Speaker 1: their friends and coworkers, you know, I'm sorry, when their
Speaker 1: friends and co workers are are suspects. So, you know,
Speaker 1: it's a it's a huge problem, and I think the
Speaker 1: task force is kind of v problem. And in making
Speaker 1: any headway in this case, you just can't tell me
Speaker 1: that the task force can investigate its own It's just
Speaker 1: it's just not possible. And you know, so that's the problem,
Speaker 1: is there is there any occation that the governor's office
Speaker 1: has gotten any interest in this, or that the FBI
Speaker 1: perhaps would come in and take over the investigation. It's
Speaker 1: a good question, you know, from from the state side.
Speaker 1: After my peace ran a local news station out there,
Speaker 1: asked the Attorney General, the Louisiana Attorney General, Buddy Caldwell,
Speaker 1: you know they're doing anything, and you just sort of
Speaker 1: punted on the question and said, oh, well, you know,
Speaker 1: there's the task Force and that's what we're doing. Okay. Now.
Speaker 1: The FBI side is interesting and also very depressing in
Speaker 1: the sense that the task Force is depressing because when
Speaker 1: you look at the task Force interviews, it has obviously
Speaker 1: the name of the interviewing, you know, slash witness, and
Speaker 1: then it also has the names of law enforcement folks
Speaker 1: who are present during this interview. I will say, like,
Speaker 1: you know, Witness Ethan Brown present, Deputy you know so
Speaker 1: and so, and then Deputy so and so, and then
Speaker 1: occasionally it will say, um that an FBI agent is present,
Speaker 1: and these are FBI agents from the Lake Charles office
Speaker 1: and Lake Charles and Calcasie Parish which is next to
Speaker 1: Jeff Davis Parish. And many times when the FBI agents
Speaker 1: are present. There are very clear allegations of law enforcement
Speaker 1: involvement in the murders being made by witnesses, and the
Speaker 1: FBI agents are present for you know, when these allegations
Speaker 1: are made, and what's happening there, what is the FBI
Speaker 1: doing about this? Because any kind of misconduct is about
Speaker 1: under the sun by law enforcement can be prosecuted federally,
Speaker 1: and there's a statute, there's a federal statute called deprivation
Speaker 1: of rights under the color of law. So if I'm
Speaker 1: a cop, wish to say, I live in New Orleans
Speaker 1: and i'm and I'm an n OPD cop, and I
Speaker 1: walk outside my house and I see somebody jaywalking right
Speaker 1: and I grabbed them and I you know, kick his
Speaker 1: head in. That can be prosecuted federally. You know, if
Speaker 1: I'm a cop, If I'm a cop and I go
Speaker 1: out to a crime scene and I dispose of evidence,
Speaker 1: that can be prosecuted federally. I mean, there's so many
Speaker 1: entryways into this case federally, and it's stunning to me
Speaker 1: that none are taken. And it's particularly given the fact
Speaker 1: again that I know for a fact, because I've seen
Speaker 1: the interviews that FBI agents are present when allegations of
Speaker 1: law enforcement misconduct are made. So I but I can't answer.
Speaker 1: I don't know why nothing is happening, but I do
Speaker 1: know that the FBI is aware of it. Have you
Speaker 1: tried to reach out to them or they just ignoring
Speaker 1: you or I have I do know for a fact
Speaker 1: that the U. S. Attorney's Office in the Western District
Speaker 1: of Louisiana is looking at This is a where I
Speaker 1: don't know what they're doing. Again, like it's it's a
Speaker 1: mystery to me, my guest, and this is only my guess,
Speaker 1: is that the local FBI office out in Lake Charles.
Speaker 1: I fear that they're close with, you know, many of
Speaker 1: the law enforcement folks that are under a cloud of
Speaker 1: suspicion on this, and that they're not moving as a
Speaker 1: result of that. You know, although again I should I
Speaker 1: should say it, it's really complicated. You know, there was
Speaker 1: there was a lot of police misconduct during an after
Speaker 1: Katrina in New Orleans, and it took years for those
Speaker 1: cases to go federal. Why did it take as long
Speaker 1: as it did for those cases to go federal? What
Speaker 1: was the what was the route right that that those
Speaker 1: cases took exactly? You know, I don't know. I'm not
Speaker 1: I don't think anybody knows other than people who work
Speaker 1: for the U. S. Attorney's Office down here. Yeah, no,
Speaker 1: but nobody. But then it's pretty to that sort of information.
Speaker 1: Why did it take as long as it take, you know,
Speaker 1: as it took? You know, it could be nothing more
Speaker 1: sinister than government inertia, you know, how to ponderous the
Speaker 1: federal government can be. Sometimes it might be that simple. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And it's also it might be as simple as you know,
Speaker 1: product of bad discretion in kinds of the case, in
Speaker 1: terms of the cases they pursued. You know, why do
Speaker 1: they pursue this and not that they have a lot
Speaker 1: of discretion there, So it could be simple something simple discretion.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I really don't know. I don't know,
Speaker 1: you know, what the doing, you know. I think that
Speaker 1: I know that under Eric Holder, police misconduct is a
Speaker 1: big priority for d J to prosecute. I know that,
Speaker 1: um so I hope that this would catch their attention
Speaker 1: because of that priority. But it hasn't me get as
Speaker 1: far as I know now. It might be too that
Speaker 1: they've actually reviewed it pretty carefully and realized that there's
Speaker 1: no way they can come out of it looking good
Speaker 1: because they can take over the case. But let's face it,
Speaker 1: I mean, there's a lot of conflicting information and doesn't
Speaker 1: there appear to be hardly any physical evidence, um, and
Speaker 1: so let's and of course the trail is very cold.
Speaker 1: The last murder was five years ago, so the possibility
Speaker 1: of the Fed's coming in and you know, on their
Speaker 1: white horse and actually solving these murders is pretty limited.
Speaker 1: So maybe for that reason alone, they realize it's not
Speaker 1: a case that's going to cover them with glory. It's
Speaker 1: going to be a case that they'll take over the
Speaker 1: great fanfare and then grind along for a few years
Speaker 1: and then not solve either coact. I mean it is.
Speaker 1: It is a very complicated case, a lot of narrativeness
Speaker 1: and completely uncomftable witnesses, and you know, they are old cases,
Speaker 1: which makes them harder to sell. You know. All of
Speaker 1: that said, I do think that they they do have
Speaker 1: a number of ways in particularly when it comes to
Speaker 1: you know, federal cases in particular, are are are all
Speaker 1: built on flipping people against one another, and I think
Speaker 1: in this case, you have quite a few people who
Speaker 1: could be easily slipped. Being one, I think and there's
Speaker 1: quite a few others. When the Fed's prosecuted the n
Speaker 1: op D misconduct cases, they would get people, you know,
Speaker 1: they would haul people before a federal grand jury, and
Speaker 1: if one of the cops engaged in the sort of
Speaker 1: flying and that that they had engaged in the past,
Speaker 1: they would get a federal charge with going up for
Speaker 1: a federal grandjury and lying is a federal crime. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so so yeah, I mean, I don't know. I I
Speaker 1: feel like the FED wield such an incredible hammer no
Speaker 1: matter who they're going after that that it's doable well,
Speaker 1: and that that gets to the question for you, which is,
Speaker 1: do you think that any of these will actually ever
Speaker 1: be solved? Good question. I like, don't believe the task
Speaker 1: force of the world will ever solve them. I do
Speaker 1: believe the only hope in this case would be federal
Speaker 1: interest do o J interest, and specifically interest from the
Speaker 1: DOJ Civil Rights Division, which goes after law enforcement is conduct.
Speaker 1: I think that's the only way. Now will that happen?
Speaker 1: I have no idea, but I think that's that's yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it seems unlikely because so you know, this has been
Speaker 1: going on for a long time and they haven't they
Speaker 1: haven't stepped in. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. Okay,
Speaker 1: Well that's that's our interview with Ethan, And yeah, I
Speaker 1: hope you guys enjoyed listening to that. Yeah that, I
Speaker 1: mean that that is a lot of information and it's
Speaker 1: it's hard to digest it. And by the way, a
Speaker 1: lot of thanks to Ethan again for absolutely making the
Speaker 1: time to talk to us. Yeah, no, I mean, I know,
Speaker 1: it took us a while to catch up with him,
Speaker 1: and I'm glad that he was able to move the
Speaker 1: schedule around to do it, because it really, I think
Speaker 1: it it does this story a lot of justice to
Speaker 1: get all of the information straight from the proverbial source,
Speaker 1: and Ethan really kind of has been the source here
Speaker 1: as he talked about you know, nobody thought he was
Speaker 1: doing the story he was doing, so even the details
Speaker 1: they gave. Yeah, and it's interesting to fall out for him.
Speaker 1: It is like, you know, at first everybody was willing
Speaker 1: to talk to him, and now some people are a
Speaker 1: little ticked off with him, and he's got tread lightly
Speaker 1: around some people be a little more careful and a
Speaker 1: little more circumspect now now I think Joe Joe had
Speaker 1: mentioned this before is Ethan has been working on this
Speaker 1: for a good while and as he said, the original
Speaker 1: article he wanted to submit with thirty thousand words. The
Speaker 1: article that's up is eight thousands. So that's a huge
Speaker 1: amount of information. And he has he's since gotten the
Speaker 1: book deal. He's gotten a book deal. I don't think
Speaker 1: we've talked about that yet, and it's it's on the
Speaker 1: order of a hundred thousand words. But so there's the
Speaker 1: book deal and then there's some other things. Oh, I guess.
Speaker 1: I mean, it doesn't necessarily pertain to Ethan so much
Speaker 1: as it pertains to this kind of vague speculation that
Speaker 1: the TV series, the HBO TV series True Detective, which
Speaker 1: some of you may or may not be familiar with,
Speaker 1: is loosely based on this story. Um, and I think
Speaker 1: it's fair to say that it's not. It doesn't you know,
Speaker 1: derive facts from this story or anything like that. But
Speaker 1: I definitely, you know, in the I saw I I
Speaker 1: watched True Detective as it was on, you know, coming
Speaker 1: out originally, So I guess it's been gosh, I'm gonna say,
Speaker 1: four or five months since, um, the last episode of
Speaker 1: the first season aired and immediately, you know, I've vaguely
Speaker 1: been aware of Jefferson Davis eight or the Jennings eight,
Speaker 1: But as soon as I started really getting into it,
Speaker 1: I just kept thinking, this sounds so much like true,
Speaker 1: just the like vague ideas of you know, X number
Speaker 1: of murders, the like weird in a parish in Louisiana,
Speaker 1: the kind of weird twisted people of the whole situation. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and also the you know, not to to do spoilers
Speaker 1: or anything, but also like a certain amount of potential
Speaker 1: police involvement and how much that allegation may or may
Speaker 1: not be true. And you know, I think if you
Speaker 1: haven't watched Your Detective and you have any kind of
Speaker 1: stomach four things like this, watch it just like immediately.
Speaker 1: But I think it's also very interesting the parallels you
Speaker 1: can draw between these things. Absolutely, and I think that
Speaker 1: we should probably you know that that was part of
Speaker 1: our interview, and we haven't. We haven't shared that with
Speaker 1: everybody yet, but let's let's share that part of the
Speaker 1: interview with Ethan where he talks about some of that stuff. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and actually I should mentioned on one thing. I've definitely
Speaker 1: mention it. I think I briefly mentioned this, but I
Speaker 1: should be more specific about it. I have a book
Speaker 1: deal with Scribner, which is a division of Simon and Schuster,
Speaker 1: write a book about this, and it's I'm quite excited
Speaker 1: about it for a number of reasons. One, the original
Speaker 1: draft that I turned in for the piece was almost
Speaker 1: thirty thousand words and what ran was about eight pounds,
Speaker 1: So you know, I've got a lot of stuff that
Speaker 1: I have not used at all, and a lot of
Speaker 1: material that I'm still developing. So it's exciting for that reason.
Speaker 1: And it's also exciting because um Scribner publishes Nick Kitzlato,
Speaker 1: the Heat Creator a True Detective, and a lot of
Speaker 1: people have noted the similarities between True Detective Season one
Speaker 1: and the Jeff Davis eight case. I don't think actually
Speaker 1: that I think the similarities are really due to the
Speaker 1: fact that it's the same, no you. I don't think
Speaker 1: that it's that it's Pits Alato being inspired by one
Speaker 1: specific case. But I think it's very similar, no you.
Speaker 1: But regardless of it's a cool it's a very exciting
Speaker 1: thing to both people to expand on a piece that
Speaker 1: was extremely expansive when I turned it in, and then
Speaker 1: also and then also to be with the publisher that
Speaker 1: you know did did great things with Nick pits Alatto.
Speaker 1: So um and and people shouldn't if you think the
Speaker 1: case is sprawling after reading eight thousand words of a way,
Speaker 1: do you read nearly a hundred thousands? Yeah? I did this,
Speaker 1: you know, somewhat with my first book, a book called
Speaker 1: Queen's Ring Supreme, which is which I which random I
Speaker 1: was published. But but this case is so complicated that
Speaker 1: I could actually see a gigantic kind of outline of
Speaker 1: the cast of characters coming at the beginning of the book.
Speaker 1: Um that the number of characters and uh that I'm
Speaker 1: going to explore in the in the book is just
Speaker 1: going to be seen. And when when do you think
Speaker 1: that book is is going to be out? Do you
Speaker 1: have a date yet? I don't. My guess would be
Speaker 1: two thousand and sixteen. Okay, you got a title plan
Speaker 1: for you yet? I do? Yes, I do have actually
Speaker 1: a very queer battle plan. Um. I have. As I said,
Speaker 1: I have been doing quite a bit of investigation since
Speaker 1: the piece came out, and I've also identified a case
Speaker 1: from Calcusu Parish in the nineties that I believe is
Speaker 1: sort of the door opener to this case. Um, which
Speaker 1: is going to be fascinating to people, I think. And
Speaker 1: then I've also got new sources. Not I don't mean
Speaker 1: individuals or people, I mean actual sources, like you know,
Speaker 1: in the sense of like the past force documents that
Speaker 1: I got for the piece. I have new new sources
Speaker 1: that are witness interviews and what not to to pour
Speaker 1: over that are just that are going to that are huge,
Speaker 1: you know, cass of information that I'm going to be
Speaker 1: able to utilize as well. It should be really interesting. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we can't wait to read the book. Yeah, well, I
Speaker 1: I don't know about the pair of you, but I'm
Speaker 1: definitely definitely glad that we got to talk to Ethan's
Speaker 1: just earlier. And I'm definitely looking forward to when the
Speaker 1: book comes out. I think that it's going to be
Speaker 1: definitely it's gonna be a patron But I don't think
Speaker 1: in the sense that I can't stop reading as and
Speaker 1: I think I'm gonna be turning the pages and then
Speaker 1: going back and turning the page back and checking because
Speaker 1: this is going to be there's so many players in
Speaker 1: this and it's gonna be so hard to track, and
Speaker 1: I think it's gonna be absurdly interesting. But such a
Speaker 1: He does a great job. You know, his article is
Speaker 1: really great at succinctly laying out what's going on. It's
Speaker 1: it's easy to follow what's kind of going on in
Speaker 1: this case. That's just a tangled rama. Yeah, it's a
Speaker 1: bol of spaghetti. But yeah, yeah, it's probably one of
Speaker 1: those books where you want to make notes as you
Speaker 1: go along, especially names of people and their relationships and
Speaker 1: stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah. Unfortunately we don't have a
Speaker 1: title because he didn't tell us what the title of
Speaker 1: the world is and maybe have done that on purpose. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: maybe he doesn't have a title yet. Maybe he hasn't
Speaker 1: quite decided exactly what it's going to be. Maybe bodies
Speaker 1: in the Buy You or Buy You Full of Bodies,
Speaker 1: I don't know. Well, he's got a couple of years
Speaker 1: to to get a year ago, so well let's let's
Speaker 1: I I just want to know what you know. We
Speaker 1: haven't really dove into personal theories so far. We've we've
Speaker 1: kind of been relying on the information we've got from
Speaker 1: Ethan and we know what we've read. But I want
Speaker 1: I want to know what you guys think. I know
Speaker 1: what my theories are, but what have you what have
Speaker 1: you go ahead and start us off, and you want
Speaker 1: to go ahead, Joe, Okay, the murderer is drum roll please,
Speaker 1: Nicole the cold gillery uh died or what's her body
Speaker 1: was sound August two thousand nine. I think she murdered
Speaker 1: all the rest of them and then she died apparently
Speaker 1: of asphyxia, they think. So. I think she auto asphyxiated
Speaker 1: and threw her threw herself into the bayou. So you're
Speaker 1: you're you're just going for you don't have a real
Speaker 1: idea and you're just making something pretty much. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: it could have been it could have been the owner
Speaker 1: of the boot row in who was really ticked off
Speaker 1: that all these women cause so much, so much of
Speaker 1: a fuss, and that his place got closed down. I
Speaker 1: think his place would have got closed down. Yeah, thanks,
Speaker 1: so yeah, but but it's really hard to say. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's there are a lot of questionable characters in this town.
Speaker 1: A lot of them have peripheral involvement in this story,
Speaker 1: and they're also at the same time involved in the
Speaker 1: drug trade. So okay, so when you're in prostitution, that
Speaker 1: makes you kind of uniquely vulnerable. Right then you put
Speaker 1: yourself into a lot of bad situations. And then also
Speaker 1: but when you're also involved in the drug trade, as
Speaker 1: most of them seem to be, then that's that's a
Speaker 1: whole another layer of motives from murder. There. So it's
Speaker 1: really really hard to say. And of course I don't
Speaker 1: want to commit liabel or anything like that, so I'm
Speaker 1: not gonna say, and frankly I don't I don't really know.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's just there's just so much going on
Speaker 1: here and there's no real hard evidence against anybody. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so I'm going to go with space aliens. Okay, still
Speaker 1: my theoryard people, Okay, Okay, you can have space aliens.
Speaker 1: I'm going to say it's the same person who did
Speaker 1: the Hagley Woods thing, the body down in the tree. Okay, Devin,
Speaker 1: what you know? Again, just like Joe, I don't necessarily
Speaker 1: want to commit any kind of libel. I only know
Speaker 1: what has been published. But in my estimation, I guess
Speaker 1: you look for the common denominators, and you know, you've
Speaker 1: got drugs and prostitution, and it's a small community, and
Speaker 1: so okay, fine, those are all common denominators, but they're
Speaker 1: also all tied to this Frankie Richard, guy who I
Speaker 1: find to be super creepy, and there's been depositional testimony
Speaker 1: it seems to the fact that he has a violent stree,
Speaker 1: particularly when high and people say no to him. And
Speaker 1: you know, I again, I don't want to say it's
Speaker 1: it's definitely this person. I don't have access to all
Speaker 1: the evidence. You know, it's they're open cases, so there's
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff that the just general public cannot know.
Speaker 1: And you know, as Ethan said, some people in the
Speaker 1: Task Force have said, Richard is is an inform he
Speaker 1: works for us, so you know, so, and it's just
Speaker 1: one of those cases of like, I don't know who
Speaker 1: to believe, but my gut instinct is to say that
Speaker 1: it's him. But you know, the thing that's the most
Speaker 1: frustrating about this, I you know, this this little TV
Speaker 1: spot that I watched, and you know, one of the
Speaker 1: locals said, the thing that's most frustrating about this is
Speaker 1: that somebody knows who killed all these women. May not
Speaker 1: be the same person. It may be a syndication, it
Speaker 1: maybe a group of people, but at least one person
Speaker 1: knows each one person. Yeah, and maybe that the murders
Speaker 1: are not not actually all that interconnected, and it might
Speaker 1: be there is no single one person who knows who
Speaker 1: killed all those true, But you know, as far as
Speaker 1: Frankie Schard goes, like, for example, he was accused by
Speaker 1: Tracy Chasson of murdering along with Hannah Connor, of murdering
Speaker 1: Dubois in front of her. And that's that was her accusation,
Speaker 1: and so why that's why he was charged with that initially.
Speaker 1: But but when you think about it, her story makes
Speaker 1: no sense because you know, here he is committing murder
Speaker 1: right in front of this person. It's like, you know
Speaker 1: what it is about Tracyson that makes Frankie Chard and
Speaker 1: his god niece Hannah Connor believed that they can commit
Speaker 1: murder right in front of her And it's perfectly okay.
Speaker 1: And she's not going to say anything to anybody. Don't know.
Speaker 1: I I I hate to say, but I think I
Speaker 1: can answer that question, which is herug adult No, no,
Speaker 1: not at all. Is when you're in a small town
Speaker 1: own again, I've I've seen these kind of communities and
Speaker 1: I've been around, I've been you know, I've lived in
Speaker 1: these places as you know everybody, and hey, can I
Speaker 1: trust you can I vouch for you. I've done things
Speaker 1: for you, and you've done things for me, and you
Speaker 1: know you're not gonna say anything, and I'll do favors
Speaker 1: for you down the line. So you scratch my back,
Speaker 1: I scratch yours. Kind of mentality that I don't have
Speaker 1: the exact way. I mean, this would take a long
Speaker 1: time to suss out, but I think that if you
Speaker 1: have somebody so scared of you, I mean, think about
Speaker 1: let's look at people who are, um, you know, abducted,
Speaker 1: and they're so afraid, like kids, they're so afraid of
Speaker 1: the person that that has abducted them that they can
Speaker 1: brainwash them. Is the word I want to use into saying, yeah,
Speaker 1: saying don't tell anybody or I will go kill your
Speaker 1: mom and dad. That that kind of that kind of
Speaker 1: influence over somebody. So I can see how that that
Speaker 1: maybe the reason that he if if indeed Richard is
Speaker 1: responsible for this particular murder, I can see how he
Speaker 1: could have gone. He could have done it in front
Speaker 1: of her and said, well, you're not going to talk
Speaker 1: because you know if you talk, I will come after you.
Speaker 1: But then you don't want me after you, But then
Speaker 1: you know, but then she did talk, and she didn't
Speaker 1: wind up murdered. She talked, she didn't wind up murdered
Speaker 1: because a bunch of evidence against him disappeared, Right, I mean,
Speaker 1: I guess, yeah, it's not a solid theory. I'm not
Speaker 1: saying that I have any kind of thing, but I'm
Speaker 1: just saying that I think her story is not entirely credible,
Speaker 1: which is fair. And then there's a lot there's a
Speaker 1: lot of things in this story that don't make sense.
Speaker 1: And like when we talk to Ethan, is the whole
Speaker 1: thing about the Chevy Silverado and supposedly transporting in the
Speaker 1: body of Lewis, which does not make any sense if
Speaker 1: if they murdered her by the canal and she's found
Speaker 1: in the canal, why they put her in a drum
Speaker 1: and drive her around? And then although Ethan did say
Speaker 1: that there's it's not a certain that she was actually
Speaker 1: murdered by the canal, right, but the whole thing about
Speaker 1: it is is trans You know, if you murder somebody
Speaker 1: and transport them around your pickup truck, then what you
Speaker 1: do is when you get home, you get out the
Speaker 1: garden hose and he hose out the back real good
Speaker 1: and get the blood in the DNA of you and
Speaker 1: and a lot of people understand that, but not everybody
Speaker 1: thinks about that, especially if not all the cylinders are firing.
Speaker 1: Because your high as a kite on something welleta means
Speaker 1: or whatever it is, you don't think about these things.
Speaker 1: You get around a tweaker, they do some weird stuff
Speaker 1: because they think that they know what they're doing. It's true.
Speaker 1: But but and then if you have this and one
Speaker 1: of the things about the truck, it was bought by
Speaker 1: one of the local cops for a below market price,
Speaker 1: and then he took it to the car wash, and
Speaker 1: you know, detailed it all out, supposed destroying evidence in
Speaker 1: the meantime, Well, if you want to destroy evidence in
Speaker 1: the back of your pickup truck, you don't need to
Speaker 1: sell the pickup truck to a local cop to take
Speaker 1: to the car wash. You can just take it to
Speaker 1: the car wash herself. Well, except for that person was
Speaker 1: in jail, weren't they. Oh yeah, but I'm not sure
Speaker 1: how much I know she had been Yeah, Siler, I
Speaker 1: know she had been charged, but I don't know that
Speaker 1: she was in jail at the time. But but I mean,
Speaker 1: this is this is the problem with this case, there's
Speaker 1: so many weird lips. Now. Personally, I think that some
Speaker 1: of the murders are connected. I don't think they're all connected, because,
Speaker 1: as we talked about in the interview with Ethan, I
Speaker 1: tends I think it's I ten is right there, and
Speaker 1: so it's a major thoroughfare, and so I think that
Speaker 1: it's not on. It's not an uncommon thing to discover
Speaker 1: that we've got a trucker who killed a woman, so
Speaker 1: I think that that might be part of it. I
Speaker 1: think the drug trade is part of it. I think
Speaker 1: that just weird interconnections. I think this whole thing is
Speaker 1: a cesspot and there's a lot of not good things
Speaker 1: going on. But I also think that in this small community,
Speaker 1: you're right, as we said before, everybody knows, at least
Speaker 1: somebody knows, but they all have their reasons for not
Speaker 1: I believe the phrase is snitching. You don't snitch, Well,
Speaker 1: there's a good reason not to snitch, because when you snitch,
Speaker 1: retribution comes down. Well, because especially in this case, it
Speaker 1: does appear, as I said earlier, that there is a
Speaker 1: mole in the police department. The police are corrupt, and
Speaker 1: I think everybody knows that if they snitched, you know,
Speaker 1: the cops are going to immediately inform on them. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and you know a lot of these women, as we
Speaker 1: talked about in the interview, they were afraid to talk
Speaker 1: because or they knew that they had talked and they
Speaker 1: made a mistake and it was going to come back.
Speaker 1: I think just by the sheer fact that I think,
Speaker 1: you know, Ethan said there's something like twenty, but there's
Speaker 1: solid evidence for eleven at least unsolved histories or unsolved
Speaker 1: murders in a well, in a community of ten thousand.
Speaker 1: You know, at that point, it's it's clearly a systemic problem.
Speaker 1: It is no longer just an anomaly of a weird
Speaker 1: unsolved mystery. There's something larger going on. If that high
Speaker 1: a percentage of murders are just unsolved for a lot
Speaker 1: a lot of years in a community that's small, because
Speaker 1: there are other let's be fair, there are other small
Speaker 1: communities of that size on huge interstates that are drug
Speaker 1: trafficking havens. It's not you know, this Jennings is not
Speaker 1: the only place on it ten in between Austin and
Speaker 1: New Orleans, right, is that what he said? Or wherever,
Speaker 1: you know, wherever he is not the only small community
Speaker 1: that's just you know, inundated with drugs and violence and
Speaker 1: gang crime and things like that, but they are the
Speaker 1: only ones that have this kind of murders. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: so I think it's in this scary that is the scale.
Speaker 1: It's the it's the fact that there's somehow there is
Speaker 1: a systemic problem and where whether that is just like
Speaker 1: pure incompetence and stupidity on the part of the police
Speaker 1: department there, or if it's something more sinister, that's hard
Speaker 1: to tell. But I think, you know, I just think
Speaker 1: that it's just this is just such a messed up Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know, this this whole thing is is Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: it's awkward and it's hard to track. Yeah, Jennings is
Speaker 1: a scary little town. If I don't go to Jennings, well,
Speaker 1: don't don't go there and try and dig up answers
Speaker 1: on your own lass. Please stay home if you go,
Speaker 1: if you go there, packy, don't packy. Just don't go.
Speaker 1: Don't go there. Well. Again, as as we said before,
Speaker 1: Ethan's book is coming out next year and there should
Speaker 1: be some more fun filled facts and the facts has
Speaker 1: been doing a lot more research, so you're gonna want
Speaker 1: to read that book. So when that book comes out
Speaker 1: and we find out what it's going to be, we
Speaker 1: will definitely put something up about it. But in the meantime,
Speaker 1: all of the links and a good a good spot
Speaker 1: of the research that we did and we got access
Speaker 1: to about this story will be on our website. The website,
Speaker 1: as always, is going to be Thinking Sideways podcast dot com.
Speaker 1: You can read all the links there, you can find
Speaker 1: the PDF that helps kind of outline this story for you,
Speaker 1: and of course you can listen to the story there
Speaker 1: as well. If you want, you can always go ahead
Speaker 1: and stream the show. You can stream the show on Stitcher,
Speaker 1: so any mobile ready device, tablets, phones, whatever they may be,
Speaker 1: you're gonna be able to follow it all there. And
Speaker 1: of course we're on Facebook, and I know a bunch
Speaker 1: of you have been on Facebook and and we're getting
Speaker 1: comments and all that good stuff and good conversations which
Speaker 1: is a lot of fun. And if you haven't done
Speaker 1: it yet, find us and friend us. And we've also
Speaker 1: got a group there where we there's some discussions going
Speaker 1: on and things being shared, which is always great. I
Speaker 1: liked our page, Yeah, I like our page a lot. Uh,
Speaker 1: you can, of course download if you don't want to
Speaker 1: use Stitcher and you don't want to use the website.
Speaker 1: The I know, it seems like the maturity of the folks.
Speaker 1: At least over half of you are using iTunes. You
Speaker 1: can use iTunes, find us on iTunes and just download
Speaker 1: the episodes for whenever you want them. And of course, last,
Speaker 1: but not least, if you have something you want to
Speaker 1: tell us, you've got story suggestions, you've got leads for us,
Speaker 1: you can do that all on our email, which is
Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways Podcast at gmail dot com. As a matter
Speaker 1: of fact, this story was suggested to us by a
Speaker 1: listener via emails. Thomas. Yeah, thanks, Thomas, thank you. And
Speaker 1: at the same time I kind of regret you having
Speaker 1: done that because I've we've just gotten so deep into
Speaker 1: such a crazy story. No, it was very good. But
Speaker 1: at the same yeah, I really am. I'm gonna keep
Speaker 1: making info graphics about this until the day I die.
Speaker 1: That's probably true. It kind of might be now, Colonel
Speaker 1: Mustard in the study with candle still is that your answer?
Speaker 1: Oh well, thank you, Joe. I appreciate that. And before
Speaker 1: we forget speaking of emails, we did get an email
Speaker 1: this week or we got well, I was gonna say, yeah,
Speaker 1: we got an email this week that whatever I say that,
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, this one stood out. I really liked it.
Speaker 1: I really had a fun time. Yeah, so I didn't
Speaker 1: know who wanted to read the email this week. I
Speaker 1: don't care. I'll read it. This email is from a
Speaker 1: guy named Jacob. Hi Jacob j H. Jacob. It says, Hi,
Speaker 1: I really liked your show, and after finding it at
Speaker 1: the start a sixteen hour drive, I proceeded to listen
Speaker 1: to sixteen hours of thinking sideways. I'm so sorry. Jacob
Speaker 1: act said the same thing too, but he said it
Speaker 1: was awesome. Didn't keep you awake to sleep. He says
Speaker 1: it was a great man aar thon, and I really
Speaker 1: liked your interpretation of these events. I'm currently working as
Speaker 1: a scientist, but still fall for imaginative or fantastic explanations
Speaker 1: for many stories that have rather than the logical choices.
Speaker 1: For example, I read about the love and past incident
Speaker 1: oh a while ago. Apparently I can't read today. I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: and could only conclude radiation and or monsters, which probably
Speaker 1: makes me a pretty expletive deleted scientist. Your walkthrough of
Speaker 1: the story using the avalanche hypothesis makes such great sense. Um,
Speaker 1: he has as everybody who emails us, almost everybody, he
Speaker 1: has a little suggestion and he gives us his scientists
Speaker 1: take on it, which was really really interesting. No, no
Speaker 1: on the story he suggested, Yeah, um, And then he
Speaker 1: goes on to say, I'd be happy to give you
Speaker 1: my take on things if interested. Keep up the good work,
Speaker 1: and I hope you guys are finding a way to
Speaker 1: get compensated for this h show. Well, we're working on
Speaker 1: that one of these days. Should we put a tip
Speaker 1: jar on our page? Yeah? I probably should, Yeah, we should. Anyways,
Speaker 1: thank you, Jacob. I don't know what kind of scientists
Speaker 1: you are. Maybe maybe Steve or I will follow up
Speaker 1: or Joe. Joe doesn't know how to do email, so bad.
Speaker 1: I didn't ask you what kind of scientists you know.
Speaker 1: We may just need we just might need a residence science. No. Actually,
Speaker 1: I think having a consulting scientist to be a good
Speaker 1: a good idea. Yeah, I hadn't thought about that. Did
Speaker 1: you say a scientist or scientologists? He said? Scientists? Okay, yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: we don't need a resident. We got five of those already.
Speaker 1: Oh well, all right, ladies and gentlemen. Well, that that
Speaker 1: is what we have on the Jefferson Davis eight I
Speaker 1: also known as the jennings A, the jennings A, I
Speaker 1: hope sometimes the jeff Davis yeah us, Yeah, for the
Speaker 1: j D eight if you want to be hip and
Speaker 1: abbreviow or just anyway, Okay, Well, so I hope that
Speaker 1: while we didn't necessarily solve the issue, we might have
Speaker 1: hopefully clarified some of the facts that you've heard about
Speaker 1: or you've read about, and it gives you a better
Speaker 1: perspective on it, because I think in this particular story,
Speaker 1: that's about the best we can do, because this one
Speaker 1: is a long way from being solved, and I think
Speaker 1: even hit on the until we get some some big
Speaker 1: government intervention, we're not going to get it. I don't
Speaker 1: think that. I don't think the FBI is going to
Speaker 1: solve this either. Don't think they're gonna step in, but
Speaker 1: they're not going to. But but it's a it's a
Speaker 1: cold trail, let's face it, you know, I mean. And
Speaker 1: the problem is is all the witnesses and all the
Speaker 1: people that come forward saying anything about it, well, a
Speaker 1: lot of are dead and but a lot of the
Speaker 1: other ones that are a drug adult and not necessarily
Speaker 1: reliable people. So yeah, sort of important. Yeah. So other words,
Speaker 1: it's not just enough to get somebody to snitch on somebody.
Speaker 1: You need some actual physical evidence to I don't I
Speaker 1: think that's all been sort of washed away or from
Speaker 1: you know, the oldest one is nine years gone. That's
Speaker 1: that's a hard I'm thinking it's not likely that this
Speaker 1: is going to be solved. Yeah, Steve, Well, I did
Speaker 1: you hear that I did? Did anybody else notice it? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Joe has admitted that we have not solved a mystery.
Speaker 1: I'm always solved it. Somebody did it at a high
Speaker 1: level kind of you know, but a far specifics. I
Speaker 1: think that I think that No, No, it's okay. You know,
Speaker 1: sideways can break this thing wide up. And but we
Speaker 1: need to go to Jennings and we're gonna need money,
Speaker 1: so you guys send us money. Joe, can we just
Speaker 1: go to Stoneheng instead? Yeah, we're going to go someplace.
Speaker 1: That's a good point. Yeah, I picked another one. Let's
Speaker 1: go to Hagley Woods. Okay, we'll go to one of
Speaker 1: those places. Okay, So listeners send us a bunch of
Speaker 1: running and then we'll go there on the spot and
Speaker 1: we'll solve the crap out of stuff. With that, we're
Speaker 1: going to wrap this up, so thank you, ladies and gentlemen.
Speaker 1: I hope you've enjoyed it, and we will bring another
Speaker 1: one to you next week. All right, everybody, I'm sad
Speaker 1: I can't blame aliens this time. I'm God, it's not
Speaker 1: too late. Go ahead and blame them. It's the aliens,
Speaker 1: all right, Eddie