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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, hideous crimes the convicted Delphi

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Speaker 1: child killer Richard Allen to walk free. Is that even possible?

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Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you for

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Speaker 1: being with us.

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Speaker 2: We also know by three o'clock nobody's hearing them. They're

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Speaker 2: nobody's screaming, nobody's running, nobody's calling on their phones. Again,

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Speaker 2: this was a very fast deal. And y'all here's the reality.

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Speaker 2: Most children that are going to be murdered or murdered

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Speaker 2: in the first three hours.

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Speaker 3: That's right.

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Speaker 1: Convicted child killer A jury said he murdered Abby and Libby,

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Speaker 1: their bodies found practically drained of blood in a remote

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Speaker 1: area a treussel Bridge. He was convicted, and now he

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Speaker 1: is back in court citing new evidence that demands a

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Speaker 1: new trial.

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Speaker 3: How is this possible?

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Speaker 1: Well, the first thing he is claiming is all about

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Speaker 1: a guy named Ron Logan.

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Speaker 4: Listen, we're other names mentioned throughout this long period of

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Speaker 4: time before anyone was in custody, Daniel Nations, Paul Ederging, Shadowell,

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Speaker 4: Keeping Klein, Tony Klein, and of course Ron Logan. There

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Speaker 4: were two searches of his property too, and he was

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Speaker 4: never arrested or charged with the crime.

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Speaker 1: Out of all the suspects, the pois pursons of interest

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Speaker 1: that police sheriffs investigated. What's different about Ron Logan? And

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Speaker 1: now Richard Allen comes into court with his fleet of

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Speaker 1: lawyers demanding to be sent free in the alternative any

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Speaker 1: trial because of Ron Logan and three other points?

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Speaker 3: So what's so special about Ron Logan? Listen.

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Speaker 5: Tommie Dillman is the ex girlfriend of Ron Logan. Their

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Speaker 5: six year relationship had come to an end by the

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Speaker 5: time of the Delphi murders. Dilman believes ron Logan is

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Speaker 5: the killer. She says the voice on the tape saying

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Speaker 5: down the Hill is absolutely him. She also claims that

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Speaker 5: Logan was violent and when she refused him sex one night,

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Speaker 5: he hit her with a wrench, causing seven stitches.

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Speaker 6: Their bodies were found on his property, his house, only

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Speaker 6: fourteen hundred feet away from where the girls were discovered.

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Speaker 6: Logan matched to the appearance of the man in the

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Speaker 6: blue jacket walking on the bridge that was captured in

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Speaker 6: snapchat footage taken by the girls just before they disappeared.

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Speaker 6: Ron Logan was questioned by detectives at length, but police

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Speaker 6: let him go and moved on to other potential suspects.

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Speaker 1: That's not all The defense is claiming that Ron Logan

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Speaker 1: confessed to the murders of Abby and Libby.

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Speaker 3: This is nothing new, listen.

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Speaker 7: Ron Logan confesses to fellow inmate Ricky Davis that he

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Speaker 7: was walking and talking with the girls about knowing one

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Speaker 7: of their fathers. When one of the girls wanted to

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Speaker 7: turn around. Logan grabs Abby's shoulder, causing Libby to freak out,

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Speaker 7: and one of the girls says something about calling the police.

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Speaker 7: Logan asked if they want to see his animals, including horses,

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Speaker 7: and Abby wanted to go. Libby did not. This led

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Speaker 7: to a scuffle and Logan got hit in the nose,

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Speaker 7: and he pulled out a box cutter and attacked Libby,

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Speaker 7: cutting her throat. Logan said he took Abby somewhere and

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Speaker 7: eventually cut her neck too.

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Speaker 8: Hours after killing the girls, he came back because he

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Speaker 8: wanted to move Libby to an area where she wouldn't

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Speaker 8: be found. He says he burned his clothes in a

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Speaker 8: burn pit with boots, gloves, and a bag, but feared

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Speaker 8: drops of blood from his nose may have ended up

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Speaker 8: on the girl's.

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Speaker 1: Clothes, lots of inconsistencies with ron Logan's so called jailhouse

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Speaker 1: confession with the facts as we know them, and I'm

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Speaker 1: talking about forensic evidence straight out to Susan Hendricks, joining

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Speaker 1: US investigative journalist and author of Down the Hill, My

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Speaker 1: Descent into the double murder in Delphi. She was there

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Speaker 1: every single day of testimony, Susan Hendrix. Now Richard Allen's defense,

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Speaker 1: his fleet of defense attorney's demand freedom or a new

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Speaker 1: trial based on four points, the first being ron Logan.

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Speaker 3: What happened with ron Logan?

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Speaker 1: Who is this guy? And why do we care? We

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Speaker 1: knew about ron Logan at the get go.

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Speaker 9: He was ruled out absolutely, Nancy, it's good to see you.

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Speaker 9: And last night I spoke to at the time detective

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Speaker 9: who is a big part of this, Jerry Holman, and

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Speaker 9: he said to me, look, Susan, we investigated ron Logan excessively,

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Speaker 9: meaning two searches of the property. But what is different here?

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Speaker 9: Soon after the murders, allegedly ron Logan confess. That's what

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Speaker 9: the defense attorneys are saying, confessed to someone he was

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Speaker 9: in jail with. He was in jail for four plus

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Speaker 9: months because he violated probation. And I remember he left

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Speaker 9: court and said next time, I won't have girls murdered

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Speaker 9: on my property, Ron Logan. But he was investigated. He

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Speaker 9: did not do this. The investigators looked into him. Of

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Speaker 9: course it was on his property. But I go back

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Speaker 9: Nancy to Libby's phone when Abby says, we heard it

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Speaker 9: in court, don't leave me up here? Well, then when

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Speaker 9: did she talk about the horses after that? I believe

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Speaker 9: that evidence on Libby's phone makes it Richard Allen and

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Speaker 9: him putting himself there.

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Speaker 3: Okay, repeat very slowly what you just said.

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Speaker 9: It was Libby's phone, he put himself there, and it

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Speaker 9: lines up with who was on Libby's phone, bridge guy?

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Speaker 9: And we saw it in court. And what we did

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Speaker 9: see and was a man approaching on the bridge, coming

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Speaker 9: up behind Abby. And she says, and you could hear

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Speaker 9: it on Libby's cell phone, don't leave me here, and

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Speaker 9: then you see them you hear the voice.

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Speaker 3: Fine, maybe true, Susan Hendricks. In fact, all of that

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Speaker 3: is true.

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Speaker 1: However, the defense is claiming the guy on the bridge

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Speaker 1: is Ron Logan joining me. In addition to investigative reporter

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Speaker 1: Susan Hendrix, who literally has written the book. Cheryl McCollum

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Speaker 1: is with US Cold Case Research Institute, founder and star

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Speaker 1: of Zone seven podcast.

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Speaker 3: Cheryl McCollum. We sat through testimony.

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Speaker 1: You have extensively investigated the scene. What do you make

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Speaker 1: of the claim that Ron Logan's confession should have come

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Speaker 1: in to evidence.

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Speaker 10: Number One, you're talking about a man that now cannot

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Speaker 10: defend himself and say whether or not he did or

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Speaker 10: did not make that claim. Number Two, Allen never said

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Speaker 10: he saw another man, not on the trail or the bridge,

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Speaker 10: So where was he that Alan himself would not have

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Speaker 10: seen it. Alan placed himself on the bridge at the

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Speaker 10: time the girls were there. He claimed he saw the

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Speaker 10: other witnesses that were young females. At no time did

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Speaker 10: he see anybody else that was a man.

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Speaker 1: To Susan Hendrix, ron Logan's confession did not come in

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Speaker 1: in front of that jury for many reasons.

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Speaker 3: Why.

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Speaker 9: Yeah, it was known. And that is one of the

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Speaker 9: questions that I asked now Lieutenant Jerry Holman last night

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Speaker 9: and said is this new? And he said no, they

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Speaker 9: both had it. They didn't bring it into evidence. And

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Speaker 9: he also stated, and this is key, that he failed

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Speaker 9: a polygraph. The prisoner who says, hey, ron Logan, and

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Speaker 9: it is specific. We heard it off the top of

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Speaker 9: the show. What allegedly ron Logan did well? He failed

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Speaker 9: that so and nothing ever tied him as Charyl'm.

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Speaker 1: Saying the inmate to whom Logan confessed failed a polly yes,

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Speaker 1: and Ron Logan's dead.

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Speaker 3: He can't be brought in. Okay. Joining me right now.

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Speaker 1: Is Greg Morse, partner at law firm King Morse, veteran

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Speaker 1: trial lawyer and author of the Untested on Amazon. Okay, Greg,

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Speaker 1: before you light into me with your defense theories, can

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Speaker 1: we just agree that the first thing you do when

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Speaker 1: you have an inmate claiming they have information, you find

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Speaker 1: out in many jurisdictions it's called hall Hll issue. Has

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Speaker 1: the inmate been offered a deal in exchange for the testimony,

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Speaker 1: such as a lighter sentence.

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Speaker 3: That's the first thing you look at, would you agree,

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Speaker 3: one hundred.

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Speaker 11: Percent, Nancy, That's the first thing you look at, because

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Speaker 11: jail house snitches are notoriously lack of credibility, and they're

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Speaker 11: generally looking for a deal. I have not seen any

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Speaker 11: information that this inmate was looking for a deal, but

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Speaker 11: my guess is he probably was.

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Speaker 1: I mean Greg, speaking just as a lawyer, not a

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Speaker 1: former prosecutor. Right now.

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Speaker 3: Of course, they're looking for a deal.

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Speaker 1: They're sitting in four walls the rest of their life

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Speaker 1: very often, and if they see a light at the

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Speaker 1: end of the tunnel, by snitching out or giving even

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Speaker 1: a fake statement, they'll do it to get out. Susan Handricks,

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Speaker 1: Did I hear you say. Let me make sure I

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Speaker 1: understand this that both sides had Ron Logan's confession.

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Speaker 3: Did the defense seek to enter it?

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Speaker 9: Well, I know he was on the witness list for

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Speaker 9: the hearing at the end of the summer, the preliminary

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Speaker 9: hearing to see if the defense could have a third

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Speaker 9: party defense. So he was on that witness list. He

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Speaker 9: could have been called, but he wasn't. It wasn't mentioned

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Speaker 9: they went with the o'ness theory. Now to me, in

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Speaker 9: my opinion, they want to go to the Ron Logan theory.

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Speaker 1: Now, okay, I'm going to get back to the odness theory.

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Speaker 1: Since it didn't come in, I'm not addressing it right

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Speaker 1: now and it's not being raised as new evidence. Okay,

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Speaker 1: Greg Morris, he needed the answer to that question before

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Speaker 1: I take out my guns and fire at you. The

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Speaker 1: defense is claiming this is newly discovered evidence.

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Speaker 3: It's not. They had Logan before he died.

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Speaker 1: They had Logan's fake confession before he died, and they

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Speaker 1: chose not to bring in Logan. They cannot complain about

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Speaker 1: a strategic maneuver they pulled during the trial. One, it's

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Speaker 1: not newly discovered evidence. Two, it was their decision not

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Speaker 1: to bring in the Logan confession.

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Speaker 3: That would have been I would have been running.

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Speaker 1: Across the courthouse steps in front of the jury, up

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Speaker 1: and down those steps. I took them many times with

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Speaker 1: Ron Logan's confession in my hand. They chose not to

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Speaker 1: use it and go with some cocamane odinism. You know

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Speaker 1: what odinism is, right, the Norse gods like they were

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Speaker 1: going to go with thor worshipers committed the murders as

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Speaker 1: part of some sacred ritual.

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Speaker 3: They chose that over logan insanity.

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Speaker 11: It is completely seems like a misstep from the defense

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Speaker 11: in the sense that you don't need Logan to testify

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Speaker 11: to get the fact that the police investigated him and

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Speaker 11: this person confessed. It goes in. It comes in under

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Speaker 11: the police's investigation and why they did what they did.

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Speaker 11: So I don't know why the defense left that out

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Speaker 11: and focused on a Norse god and ritualistic killings when

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Speaker 11: there was a lot of information that could have led

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Speaker 11: to this logan potentially or at least created as we

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Speaker 11: know reasonable doubt. However, you can't look at these issues

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Speaker 11: in a vacuum, Nancy. This dovetailed with the other three issues.

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Speaker 11: It becomes more important after the fact. But you are right,

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Speaker 11: it's going to be a hurdle for the defense that

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Speaker 11: they had the opportunity to bring this stuff up. And

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Speaker 11: I didn't see any new evidence that was created that

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Speaker 11: would excuse me.

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Speaker 3: Okay, And that's a lot of words. Why use one

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Speaker 3: word when you can use two hundred, Okay, Greg.

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Speaker 1: Bottom line, now is the time for newly discovered evidence.

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Speaker 3: If there really is newly.

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Speaker 1: Discovered evidence that exonerates Richard Allen, which is total BS

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Speaker 1: technical legal term. If there is such evidence, there deserves

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Speaker 1: to be a hearing. Okay, this is not new evidence period.

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Speaker 1: Their blunder at trial is their fault. Now you've got

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Speaker 1: logan dead now and the innmatefield to polygraph. So I

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Speaker 1: don't know how much it would have helped them. I

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Speaker 1: don't know that they could have gotten it.

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Speaker 3: In under the rules of hearsay.

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Speaker 1: But to Susan Hendrix, why is Logan ron Logan the

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Speaker 1: single best candidate.

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Speaker 3: For or the defense to hone in on now?

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Speaker 9: So a key part of this that the defense is

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Speaker 9: saying why they want to bring in ron Logan now,

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Speaker 9: is a box cutter the alleged weapon Because in this

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Speaker 9: supposed confession that ron Logan confessed too that he did it,

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Speaker 9: he said he did it with a box cutter. So

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Speaker 9: when autopsy was done on Abby and Libby at graphic

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Speaker 9: brutal pictures that we saw in that courtroom, and the

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Speaker 9: gentleman who performed that said, maybe it could have been

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Speaker 9: a box cutter. So that's what they're saying, Hey, wait

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Speaker 9: a minute, that can't be coincidental. If it was a

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Speaker 9: box cutter, then we need to bring this back in

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Speaker 9: because ron Logan confessed that it was a box cutter,

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Speaker 9: so let's bring him in. We would have if we

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Speaker 9: knew that detail, they're said.

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Speaker 1: And then you have the issue of Logan seeking a

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Speaker 1: fake alibi for the time the girls were murdered.

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Speaker 3: That doesn't look good, listen, ron.

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Speaker 10: Logan does not have an alibi.

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Speaker 12: According to cell tower data, his phone was at his

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Speaker 12: property at two oh nine pm. We know from the

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Speaker 12: video that Libby took on her phone that the girls

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Speaker 12: were approached on the bridge.

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Speaker 3: At two thirteen.

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Speaker 12: Ron had claimed for many years that he was on

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Speaker 12: surveillance video at this tropical fish store in Lafayette some

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Speaker 12: thirty minutes away, but that story didn't have surveillance videos.

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Speaker 12: There is no proof that he was elsewhere. That does

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Speaker 12: not mean that he's the killer of the girls, but

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Speaker 12: his alibi does not check out.

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Speaker 3: What is your last memory dropping.

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Speaker 10: Her off at their house with their paints?

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Speaker 9: And it wasn't until later on when we got to

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Speaker 9: the Sheriff's department it actually saw the snapchat picture.

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Speaker 2: But that's the last picture I have as the last

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Speaker 2: visual I have with little girl.

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Speaker 13: So that bridge.

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Speaker 1: Richard Allen and his defense team back in court. Who

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Speaker 1: is Richard Allen, the man convicted, the pharmacy tech who

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Speaker 1: likely watched the two little girls, Abby and Libby coming

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Speaker 1: in and out and in and out of his pharmacy

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Speaker 1: every week.

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Speaker 3: Him convicted in the.

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Speaker 1: Murders of Abby and Libby, and now back in court

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Speaker 1: stating that newly discovered evidence will set him free. Well,

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Speaker 1: you got another thought coming Richard Allen. He is claiming

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Speaker 1: number one that Ron Logan, that guy is the real killer.

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Speaker 1: But to everyone on the panel, take a look at

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Speaker 1: Ron Logan compared to the composite sketch, and Ron Logan

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Speaker 1: compared to the man on the bridge.

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Speaker 3: It's not him.

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Speaker 1: Now look at this Richard Allen compared to the composite

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Speaker 1: sketch and the man on the bridge.

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Speaker 3: Should I believe Richard Allen? My lion I, Cheryl McCollum,

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Speaker 3: it's not him. It's Richard Allen and Nancy.

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Speaker 14: There's another component we haven't talked about. We also had

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Speaker 14: the killer's voice. The defense put up nobody that said

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Speaker 14: that was not Richard Allen. Nobody came forward, not to

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Speaker 14: former girlfriend, not a neighbor. Nobody came forward and said

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Speaker 14: that sounds like Logan.

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Speaker 4: No one.

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Speaker 3: Cheryl McCollum, you're right.

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Speaker 1: The defense brought no one because they chose not to

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Speaker 1: pursue Ron Logan as the sod some other dude that

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Speaker 1: did it. And they did have someone. The former girlfriend

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Speaker 1: of Logan, she stated to police that when she saw

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Speaker 1: the shot of the man on the.

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Speaker 3: Bridge, she thought, well, there's Ron Logan.

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Speaker 1: She thought that was Logan and that when she heard

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Speaker 1: the voice that she thought that was Logan's voice. They

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Speaker 1: could have brought her on, but they didn't. Let me

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Speaker 1: go quickly to Joseph Scott Morgan joining US professor forensic

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Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University, renowned death investigator, author of Blood Beneath

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Speaker 1: My Feet on Amazon, and star of a hit podcast,

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Speaker 1: Body Bags, with Joe Scott Morgan.

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Speaker 3: Joe Scott, could you just.

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Speaker 1: Give us all a reminder of what happened to Abby

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Speaker 1: and well.

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Speaker 15: To kind of break it down as best we can

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Speaker 15: in these moments, their throats were cut fancy and let's

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Speaker 15: think about that. That's the baseline because when we began

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Speaker 15: to think about their cause of death, as you like

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Speaker 15: to say, the cod we have essentially Abby who has

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Speaker 15: got a singular two inch laceration to her throat. And

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Speaker 15: then with Libby it's a bit more dynamic in the

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Speaker 15: sense that the forensic pathologists identified that she had four

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Speaker 15: overlapping lacerations or let's just say in sized injuries or

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Speaker 15: cuts to her throat, both of these. In both cases

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Speaker 15: Nancy affected the juggler vein. And can I make one

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Speaker 15: quick comment please about this reactionary kind of event that

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Speaker 15: defense is alleging took place, I guess on the bridge

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Speaker 15: where he snapped back in a reactionary form and essentially

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Speaker 15: cut the throat. And Nancy, one of the big questions

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Speaker 15: I would have is if that happened up on the bridge,

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Speaker 15: we would see a copious amount of blood worked, thousands

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Speaker 15: of throats being cut unfortunately over my career, and you

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Speaker 15: bleed more profusely out of that location than just about

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Speaker 15: anywhere in the body. There would be blood trails leading

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Speaker 15: to specific locations that would have been very recognizable. I mean,

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Speaker 15: are they postulating that he goes up with clorox and

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Speaker 15: cleans up the bridge so that you can't identify this

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Speaker 15: on the cross ties or any other location. I just

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Speaker 15: don't think this is plausible based upon these injuries.

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Speaker 1: Nancy to Susan Hendrix joining us in investigative journalists, who

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Speaker 1: literally has written the book on the Delphi murders of

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Speaker 1: Abby and Libby. People gasped, started crying, grabbed each other, hugging.

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Speaker 3: Girars tried to look away from the shots of Abby

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Speaker 3: and Libby. They were displayed for anyone in the courtroom

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Speaker 3: to see. And isn't it true?

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Speaker 1: Susan that the ground around the girls was still saturated

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Speaker 1: in blood.

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Speaker 3: When their bodies were found.

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Speaker 9: Yeah, just huge puddles of blood. And you're right, there

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Speaker 9: were gasps in that courtroom. And I remember Natcy during

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Speaker 9: the victim impact statement the day he was sentenced, Diane,

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Speaker 9: Abby's grandmother, and Abby's grandfather, Eric, they read their victim

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Speaker 9: impact statements and I remember Diane saying, look, Abby wasn't

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Speaker 9: a daredevil. She was worried, she was concerned. Don't leave

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Speaker 9: me up here. And then seeing the crime scene photos,

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Speaker 9: it was horrific to see and knowing the long term

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Speaker 9: effects on the family members and what those girls went

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Speaker 9: through in the last moments. But the victim impacts statements

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Speaker 9: to me were so powerful, saying we sat through this

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Speaker 9: every day. We can't imagine what the girls went through,

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Speaker 9: and this is generational the pain inflicted on us. But

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Speaker 9: you were right seeing those and Eric said, Abby's grandfather,

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Speaker 9: they're worse than I even thought they could.

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Speaker 3: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 1: Two, doctor Bethony Marshall joining us, renowned psychoanalyst out of

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Speaker 1: the LA jurisdiction, author of deal Breaker.

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Speaker 3: You can see her.

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Speaker 1: On Peacock now at Dr Bethany Marshall dot com, Doctor Bethany.

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Speaker 1: The fact that Richard Allen and his defense team are

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Speaker 1: raising these four issues, ron Logan.

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Speaker 3: Being one of them, as a bid.

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Speaker 1: For freedom or a new trial, how does that affect

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Speaker 1: Abby and Libby's family?

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Speaker 16: Nancy? The fact that Richard Allen could be roaming public

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Speaker 16: around that town where there are other children, other families,

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Speaker 16: and putting girls at risk is absolutely terrifying, first of all,

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Speaker 16: secondarily unfair, Nancy. What I want to contrast is what

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Speaker 16: the families saw in court, the blood, the lacerations, the cuts,

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Speaker 16: their daughters and granddaughters dead, compared to Logan and Alan

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Speaker 16: and the inmate who were talking about it, the incarcerated guy.

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Speaker 16: Those men are bragging. It's become an urban myth for them.

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Speaker 16: I did it, No I did it, No I did it.

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Speaker 16: It's like these guys are allegedly asserting themselves into the

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Speaker 16: notoriety of the crime, reliving the sexual excitement, turning it

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Speaker 16: over in their head, and talking about it like a

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Speaker 16: great movie that they all went to together, whereas the

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Speaker 16: family and the people in the court will have those

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Speaker 16: images seared into their mind forever. As a secondary post

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Speaker 16: traumatic stress response, looking at those images. They'll never be

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Speaker 16: able to get the images out.

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Speaker 9: Of their mind.

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Speaker 16: Nancy, I just feel that there's so many sex predators

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Speaker 16: in the general public that you have one crime near

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Speaker 16: another person's property, who, now all of a sudden, says

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Speaker 16: he committed the crime allegedly will never know he's dead now.

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Speaker 9: And it makes me think about how pedophiles.

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Speaker 16: Congregate and share stories, and how the defense has sort

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Speaker 16: of taken that up as a strategy to point the

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Speaker 16: blame towards yet another pedophile alleged patophle file, whereas in fact,

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Speaker 16: we know Allan did it. That's all already been proven.

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Speaker 1: In a Nutshelle Susan Hendricks explain the significance of the

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Speaker 1: white van.

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Speaker 9: Brad Weber was on the stand two times and he

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Speaker 9: said he left work, and it aligned with the confessions

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Speaker 9: of Richard Allen. If he was spooked, we believed his

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Speaker 9: story he looked at a white van. It's only something

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Speaker 9: he would know he crossed the creek and killed the girls.

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Speaker 9: So what they're saying is the defense that Libby's phone

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Speaker 9: stopped moving at a particular time. Well, now from surveillance footage,

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Speaker 9: it appears that the time is off a bit, so

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Speaker 9: I thought about this a lot less than I think.

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Speaker 9: We're listening to Richard Allen and everything. He says, what

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Speaker 9: if he was spooked by the white van but near

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Speaker 9: where the bodies were found? I was there after he

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Speaker 9: was sentenced. I went to where the bodies were found,

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Speaker 9: and coincidentally you could hear a car. It was Brad

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Speaker 9: Weber's car, not the white van. Another one, and it

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Speaker 9: is loud, and it's right there.

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Speaker 1: Convicted child killer Richard Allen back in court with his

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Speaker 1: defense team demanding either freedom or when trial based on

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Speaker 1: four newly discovered pieces of evidence.

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Speaker 3: All along there was an online tied a tsunami wave

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Speaker 3: against the state.

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Speaker 7: Listen some people paying attention to the Richard Allen Delphi

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Speaker 7: murder trial or taking to social media to pass judgment

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Speaker 7: on the prosecution and support for the man accused of

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Speaker 7: killing Libby Jerman and Abbie Williams autumn on ex post.

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Speaker 7: I reserve the right to be wrong, but I'm absolutely

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Speaker 7: not seeing how anyone has convinced Richard Allen committed the murders.

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Speaker 7: Luke Nicholas on X says time for a motion for

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Speaker 7: directed verdict in the Delphi case. Put it to the jury.

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Speaker 7: Now the state no longer has enough evidence to overcome

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Speaker 7: the sculpatory evidence already presented, and Theresa chimes in with

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Speaker 7: this needs to stop. This has been a huge cover

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Speaker 7: up from day one. Free Richard Allen and arrest the

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Speaker 7: real killers already and all involved in the cover up.

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Speaker 1: Straight out to Joe Scott Morgan who lived the case

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Speaker 1: along with many of us. Joscott, you have studied the

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Speaker 1: physics so carefully. What do you believe is the strongest

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Speaker 1: evidence against Allen?

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Speaker 15: Well, I think that probably for me at least, one

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Speaker 15: of the things that really stands out, and you kind

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Speaker 15: of touched on it just a moment ago, Nancy, was

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Speaker 15: this expended round that was found at the scene. If

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Speaker 15: you can throw this up on the camera, this is

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Speaker 15: actually a forty caliber round right here. This is what

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Speaker 15: it would have looked like. This is in pristine shape.

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Speaker 15: This scene has been ejected from a weapon which was

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Speaker 15: actually a six hour so that when this thing is

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Speaker 15: racked back, it leaves these little striations on the external

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Speaker 15: portion of the round. That round is tied back to

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Speaker 15: the weapon that he possessed. Nancy. That's one of the

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Speaker 15: really big pieces for me relative to relative to the

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Speaker 15: physical evidence. It's not pure ballistic evidence because this is

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Speaker 15: an unfired round. However, this is accepted science, Nancy. So

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Speaker 15: that's one of the big pieces here from me.

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Speaker 1: You know, the ballistics evidence cannot be ignored, but the

440
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:13,639
Speaker 1: defense is conveniently doing that, Joe Scott, and they are

441
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 1: focusing on not only Ron Logan's false confession, they are

442
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 1: focusing on the timing of the van as it relates

443
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 1: to the last time the girl's phone was used. And

444
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 1: they are also arguing about Libby Germans cell phone being

445
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:40,080
Speaker 1: used after the state says she's dead.

446
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:43,960
Speaker 8: Listen shocking moment in the courtroom when former FBI forensic

447
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:47,600
Speaker 8: examiner Stacy Eldridge says Libby Germans phone received a call

448
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:51,639
Speaker 8: at five forty five pm February thirteenth, twenty seventeen, and

449
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 8: within milliseconds a headphone jack was inserted into the phone.

450
00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 8: Eldridge says. The headphone jack was removed nearly five hours

451
00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 8: lea at ten thirty two pm. Eldridge says, I cannot

452
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:08,359
Speaker 8: think of any explanation that doesn't involve human interaction.

453
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:12,200
Speaker 1: Joining Scott Iiker, a founding member of the FBI Cellular

454
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 1: Analysis Team, former FBI Scott.

455
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,040
Speaker 3: What are they saying exactly.

456
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 13: Well, it sounds like they're saying that there was a

457
00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:24,920
Speaker 13: headphone plugged into the phone and then removed right after

458
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:29,119
Speaker 13: a call that occurred. It's hard to tell from you know,

459
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:32,399
Speaker 13: the was it not looking at the actual phone and

460
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 13: the extraction of the phone. Why they're saying that. I mean,

461
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:39,959
Speaker 13: there could be several different things that occur. A device

462
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:47,439
Speaker 13: was plugged in, or was somehow the insertion point filled

463
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 13: with dirt or something that allowed it to think that

464
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:51,679
Speaker 13: something was plugged into it.

465
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:56,440
Speaker 1: Well, the state responded the defense emotion that we're looking

466
00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 1: at today demanding either freedom or a new trial.

467
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:01,440
Speaker 3: Us on to say that.

468
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 1: Dirt or water could not have clogged the phone. So

469
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 1: what does dirt or water clogging the phone have to

470
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 1: do with this?

471
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:14,719
Speaker 3: Listen?

472
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,200
Speaker 7: After the shocking news that a headphone jack had been

473
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:22,080
Speaker 7: plugged into Libby Jerman's phone milliseconds after receiving a call

474
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:25,480
Speaker 7: at five point forty five pm February thirteen, the defense

475
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:28,480
Speaker 7: calls back to the stand State Police digital forensic expert

476
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:31,720
Speaker 7: Chris Cecil and asks about the lack of reporting about

477
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:34,720
Speaker 7: the headphone jack data. Cecil said he did a Google

478
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 7: Search and found a headphone jack could register as being

479
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 7: used if water or dirt is in the port. The

480
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,960
Speaker 7: defense counter is asking, Cecil, do you normally Google search

481
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 7: when conducting a criminal investigation. Defense attorney Jennifer Auger presses further, saying,

482
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:51,960
Speaker 7: you and the state have had seven and a half

483
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 7: years to research and you came in here with a

484
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 7: Google search.

485
00:28:56,520 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 1: The defense is climbing that the girls sell phone was used,

486
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 1: was plugged into a jack after they're dead, clearly arguing

487
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 1: that someone was manipulating the phone, okay, or even the

488
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,040
Speaker 1: girls manipulating the phone, which would throw off the state's

489
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 1: timeline because they claimed the phone was used.

490
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:22,240
Speaker 3: Got it so far?

491
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 1: Yes, no, I got it and that's the true okay,

492
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:29,520
Speaker 1: So in their motion is the headphone jack?

493
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 3: Let me tell you the rest.

494
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:35,840
Speaker 1: So the state brings on so this is not newly discovered,

495
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 1: by the way, again, because that came up at trial

496
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 1: and the state brought on an expert to counter it, claiming, hey,

497
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 1: it got clogged with water and dirt which was at

498
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 1: the scene he alan forced the girls through a creek,

499
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:54,320
Speaker 1: and the defense attorney says, well, what do you have

500
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 1: to support that, and the state's expert said a Google search.

501
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:00,720
Speaker 3: Story short.

502
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 1: The defense said, after this long, all you got is

503
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 1: a Google search. I would have said, well, after this long,

504
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:07,719
Speaker 1: why didn't you do a Google search?

505
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:11,480
Speaker 11: Well, it's not the defense's job to prove their innocence.

506
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 11: That's on the prosecution. And I wish I worked in

507
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 11: a county where experts get on the stand for the

508
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:21,040
Speaker 11: prosecution and rely on Google searches. You know what we've

509
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 11: all seen the mugs. Don't mistake my law degree for

510
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 11: a Google search. Same thing with science. That is appalling

511
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 11: Palmage County. The prosecutors are much better.

512
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 13: I don't know, I don't know.

513
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 7: No one else.

514
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:35,080
Speaker 1: Now you got a totally bass Ackwards Morse. The defense

515
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 1: should have done a Google search and figured out you

516
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 1: can get the same reaction from a cell phone if

517
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 1: it's clogged with dirt or water. You know what, if

518
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 1: you have a question, cell analysis expert, here's your chance.

519
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 1: What about it, Scott, could you explain two Morse? The

520
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 1: state's theory that the reason it looked like her phone

521
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 1: had been plugged into a jack was because it.

522
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:03,760
Speaker 3: Was clagged with dirt and water, which it.

523
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 13: Was most definitely. I mean that water is a conductor

524
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 13: of electricity, and it is a very small pound of

525
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 13: electricity when the phone like a phone jack, is plugged

526
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 13: into the bottom of the phone, and it allows that connection.

527
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:22,880
Speaker 13: Right allows that electrical connection to being made waters just

528
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 13: like that right that allows electricital electricity to go through.

529
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:32,160
Speaker 13: Should that have been a Google search on during the trial?

530
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:32,320
Speaker 1: No?

531
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 13: Should it have been something that they looked at prior

532
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:37,960
Speaker 13: to going to trial and had an expert come in,

533
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:40,440
Speaker 13: Or shouldn't they have tried that on another phone? I

534
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 13: agree they should definitely should have done that prior to

535
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:44,360
Speaker 13: having this brought up.

536
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 1: When a minute, Scott iiker, the defense can do it too.

537
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:49,800
Speaker 3: The defense has subpoena power.

538
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 1: They're getting paid investigators paid for by you and me

539
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:56,680
Speaker 1: the state for the defense. Yes, we pay for his defense.

540
00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:00,920
Speaker 1: So you and Morse are arguing the state should have

541
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:03,920
Speaker 1: done this, and that yes, the defense could have done

542
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:04,719
Speaker 1: it themselves.

543
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:06,040
Speaker 3: Why didn't they do it?

544
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:08,520
Speaker 13: I agree, they definitely could have done it themselves too.

545
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:11,240
Speaker 13: That would have been a big thing to bring up

546
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:13,360
Speaker 13: by the defense if they had done that on their own,

547
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 13: but they didn't.

548
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:15,200
Speaker 3: What about that, Morse?

549
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 11: Well, again, prosecution has to prove someone is guilty. However,

550
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 11: it sounds like all these issues that you're looking at

551
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,360
Speaker 11: to affect the verdict sounds like they really lead to

552
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:28,920
Speaker 11: an ineffective council claim. That's what these issues are. Those

553
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 11: are notoriously last ditch efforts that people convicted file. They

554
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:35,400
Speaker 11: have less than ten percent chance to propose.

555
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 1: Say you're giving up on the cell phone. You're giving

556
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 1: up on the cell phone giving I know what you're doing.

557
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 11: You can't have an expert get on the stand and

558
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 11: say they researched Google. This is a court of law,

559
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,800
Speaker 11: this is people's lives. We have a constitution that has

560
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 11: a standard. It's not for social media consumption.

561
00:32:57,600 --> 00:32:57,959
Speaker 14: Standing.

562
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:01,000
Speaker 3: They can't. They can't.

563
00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:05,120
Speaker 11: Well they did in twenty in twenty five years I have.

564
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 11: I would be appalled and I do serious cases like this.

565
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:13,040
Speaker 11: If a prosecutor got up and said, well my expert

566
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 11: did a Google search, that's it. That person is they

567
00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 11: have zero credibility.

568
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 1: Zero susan And what happened? This expert testified and was

569
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 1: on cross exam and I was asked, well, how do

570
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:31,240
Speaker 1: you know that water or dirt can cause the same result?

571
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 9: They went Google, absolutely absolutely, And Rosie mentioned it in closing.

572
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:38,920
Speaker 3: What happened? What happened.

573
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 9: Was they alluded to the fact. The defense is saying, hey,

574
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 9: someone was there, or move Libby because her phone someone

575
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 9: plugs something in. But that doesn't really make sense if

576
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,920
Speaker 9: be thinking about it. So the prosecution was saying, yes,

577
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:54,080
Speaker 9: this could happen because of dirt and water, and it

578
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 9: was I was in the courtroom, yes, if I could

579
00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 9: see the defense, I looked right at Rosy and Baldwin

580
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 9: and they went like that. They googled it. He googled it.

581
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 9: They mentioned it in the closing argument. He googled this.

582
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 9: Turns out one of the jurors was interviewed on murder

583
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 9: sheet and they said that they kind of put aside.

584
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 9: What they really focused on was Richard Allen, his voice

585
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:17,480
Speaker 9: and putting himself there an interrogation video where his wife

586
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:19,400
Speaker 9: walks in and says, you didn't tell me you were

587
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:22,000
Speaker 9: at the bridge that day. That's what it boiled down to.

588
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 9: But you're right, the.

589
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:28,000
Speaker 1: Defense they use that attacking the state's witness because they

590
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:31,200
Speaker 1: used to Google search. Everybody on that jury probably relies

591
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:33,960
Speaker 1: on Google, so they're balking up the wrong tree with this.

592
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:39,359
Speaker 2: We also know by three o'clock nobody's hearing them they're

593
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:44,240
Speaker 2: nobody's screaming, nobody's running, nobody's calling on their phones. Again,

594
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:48,040
Speaker 2: this was a very fast deal, and y'all, here's the

595
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:51,880
Speaker 2: reality most children that are going to be murdered or

596
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:53,920
Speaker 2: murdered in the first three hours.

597
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:05,920
Speaker 3: Crime stories with Nancy Grace.

598
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 1: Joining me is former FBI investigator and expert in forensic photography,

599
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:20,040
Speaker 1: Bill Daily, Bill, thank you for being with us. We

600
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 1: were talking earlier about those crime scene photos that made

601
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:29,399
Speaker 1: people start crying in the courtroom, gasp, grab each other

602
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:37,360
Speaker 1: for support. One of your expertise is forensic photography. How

603
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:42,360
Speaker 1: do you get through taking the photographs of crime scenes,

604
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:46,880
Speaker 1: for instance, where two little girls are brutally murdered.

605
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:48,040
Speaker 3: Well, that's I can tell you.

606
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:49,920
Speaker 17: You know, the times I've gone to crime scenes where

607
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 17: have been bombings and kidnappings, bank robberies, where people have

608
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:56,200
Speaker 17: been killed, you really have to remove yourself. You really

609
00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:57,799
Speaker 17: have to get a step back and say you're doing

610
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:00,400
Speaker 17: it for the victims, You're doing it for the betterment

611
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:03,239
Speaker 17: of society, that you're going to find out who's responsible

612
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:06,480
Speaker 17: for these heenous crimes. And so you kind of look

613
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:10,400
Speaker 17: through the viewfinders you're photographing and documenting the area to

614
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:13,480
Speaker 17: kind of say, this is going to go towards making

615
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:16,120
Speaker 17: justice happen, So you kind of need to put a

616
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:17,480
Speaker 17: bit of a shield.

617
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:18,400
Speaker 3: Up to protect yourself.

618
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:21,239
Speaker 17: Otherwise, like you said, here, people looking at it from

619
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:24,239
Speaker 17: the jury box are going to be overwhelmed with the

620
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:27,200
Speaker 17: emotion because you picture yourself. If you start imagining that

621
00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:30,960
Speaker 17: those are your children, your nieces and nephews, or mother

622
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:33,719
Speaker 17: or father or sister, brother, it will be too overwhelming.

623
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:35,600
Speaker 17: So that's what you really need to do. You need

624
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 17: to kind of distance yourself and look at it through

625
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 17: the kind of empirical view of a lens to hope

626
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:42,440
Speaker 17: to get to the truth.

627
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:46,160
Speaker 1: The last major point the defense is bringing up is

628
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:49,880
Speaker 1: the fact that Richard Allen was kept in DSA Department

629
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:53,839
Speaker 1: of Corrections as opposed to another jail. Why do they

630
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:57,960
Speaker 1: care because it was there he was placed in solitary.

631
00:36:57,440 --> 00:36:58,960
Speaker 3: Confinement and gave.

632
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:05,320
Speaker 1: I think it was sixty one confessions that he murdered

633
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:06,880
Speaker 1: Abby and Lebby Listen.

634
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:10,360
Speaker 7: The defense also claimed Alan had no absolute right to

635
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:14,120
Speaker 7: refuse being transferred into state custody since the safekeeping order

636
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:16,799
Speaker 7: wasn't served to Allan or his attorney, Breg Gibson. They

637
00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:18,840
Speaker 7: never argued against the transfer.

638
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 3: So another thing that was never brought up. Susan Hendrix.

639
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:26,600
Speaker 1: The significance of arguing about where he was housed is

640
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:31,359
Speaker 1: because they cannot suppress those statements he gave. Statement after

641
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:35,880
Speaker 1: you can't suppress sixty one confessions right including to your wife,

642
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:40,480
Speaker 1: over the phone, being recorded, to other inmates, to the wardens,

643
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:41,279
Speaker 1: to everybody.

644
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:47,160
Speaker 3: He told everybody, I did it, so okay, can't suppress those,

645
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:51,080
Speaker 3: So argue the fact that he was in.

646
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:56,160
Speaker 1: The wrong facility. In a nutshell, explain this argument, I.

647
00:37:56,120 --> 00:38:00,080
Speaker 9: Think, Nancy, this is their strongest point for possibility of

648
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:03,440
Speaker 9: an appeal, which is right after he was arrested, Sheriff

649
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:06,319
Speaker 9: tob Lesbie at the time it was a safe keeping

650
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:08,760
Speaker 9: order said look he won't be safe at Carroll County,

651
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:11,280
Speaker 9: so we have to send him to another prison. Well,

652
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:13,560
Speaker 9: they're saying he should not have been there, of course,

653
00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:16,840
Speaker 9: innocent until proven guilty, and they're saying, as you mentioned,

654
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:19,640
Speaker 9: it drove him crazy, so to speak. So that's why

655
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:23,120
Speaker 9: he confessed because of where he was. But the state says,

656
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:25,840
Speaker 9: look he was treated better than other inmates. Get an iPad,

657
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:29,360
Speaker 9: he had a lot more than he would have had,

658
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 9: meaning the psychologist, doctor Walla, he wouldn't have had at

659
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:35,360
Speaker 9: Carroll County, and I bet they're wishing he didn't have

660
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:37,120
Speaker 9: that because that's who he confessed.

661
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:41,120
Speaker 1: To, so essentially to you, Cheryl McCollum, they're arguing he

662
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:43,600
Speaker 1: was in the wrong facility. I think as a bid

663
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,080
Speaker 1: to get the statements thrown out.

664
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:47,719
Speaker 3: You sat in court with me.

665
00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:51,720
Speaker 1: What do you make of the doctor claiming Richard Allen

666
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:56,000
Speaker 1: was faking it? I mean he looked sane in the courtroom.

667
00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:58,840
Speaker 10: I agree with the doctor. First of all. I believe

668
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:02,720
Speaker 10: he's still confessing today, and I believe if you listen

669
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:06,600
Speaker 10: to what he confessed to. He tells the story in

670
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:11,680
Speaker 10: chronological order. Somebody that is delusional cannot do that. He

671
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,840
Speaker 10: starts where he went to his parents, He got beer,

672
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:18,640
Speaker 10: He went home and changed clothes. That is also key.

673
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:22,160
Speaker 10: Why are you changing clothes and putting on more layers

674
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:25,680
Speaker 10: on a warm day. He tells exactly where he went,

675
00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 10: where he parked his car far away, He went to

676
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:31,160
Speaker 10: the trail, He went to the bridge, He saw the girls,

677
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:34,560
Speaker 10: he followed him. He tells you in order that this

678
00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:39,319
Speaker 10: crime occurred later. He also tells you the motive and

679
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:42,720
Speaker 10: the reason he did not complete the sexual assault because

680
00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:43,400
Speaker 10: of the white.

681
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:48,200
Speaker 1: Man Greg Morris joining US renowned trial lawyer Greg Morse.

682
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:55,719
Speaker 1: Maybe suppressing one confession, but sixty one confessions not.

683
00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:56,280
Speaker 3: Going to happen.

684
00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:59,279
Speaker 11: Well, you're right, that's a lot to overcome, especially when

685
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:02,680
Speaker 11: they're on j a phone call speaking with family. However,

686
00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:05,520
Speaker 11: the more difficult thing here, or the issue is this

687
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:10,480
Speaker 11: person had a lawyer. They contacted the police department, and

688
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 11: I guess he was under a different name. You know,

689
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:16,320
Speaker 11: there's a reason why in cases the second thought, I'm retained,

690
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:19,399
Speaker 11: we file an invocation of rights. It doesn't matter if

691
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 11: the police or people go talk to the person. So

692
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:24,920
Speaker 11: their issue is trying to use he didn't get counsel

693
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:27,400
Speaker 11: when he had one, they used a different name, and

694
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:32,319
Speaker 11: detail that into is this decompensated psychosis that led him

695
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:34,759
Speaker 11: to a confession. He's probably not going to get on

696
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:37,360
Speaker 11: those grounds. But not putting him in touch with the

697
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 11: lawyer who contacted and was hired for him, that's particularly

698
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:43,759
Speaker 11: troubling under the sixth Amendment to the Constitution.

699
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:48,040
Speaker 1: Troubled you may be, but does it warrant a new trial?

700
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:50,720
Speaker 1: Much lesser reversal in freedom.

701
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:53,880
Speaker 3: No, well, I think all the mission into naturrial.

702
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 11: The standard is not innocence. It is there a possibility

703
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 11: the result would have been different. That's all it is.

704
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:03,920
Speaker 11: So the prosecution stuck to a timeline here. Then it

705
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:06,880
Speaker 11: turns out not all of the evidence that they found,

706
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:12,360
Speaker 11: whether it's related to the logan person or the headphone,

707
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:16,520
Speaker 11: doesn't fit into their own narrative, and these create issues

708
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:19,239
Speaker 11: that this guy should get a new trial. He may

709
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:22,040
Speaker 11: be convicted again with the other evidence, but these issues

710
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:25,919
Speaker 11: taken together are to not warrant a new trial here

711
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:29,160
Speaker 11: for ineffective or for the core allowing some of this

712
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:30,560
Speaker 11: stuff in with the Google search.

713
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:34,360
Speaker 1: We wait as justice unfolds in that del Fi courthouse,

714
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:38,160
Speaker 1: And now we remember an American hero, Sergeant Chris Jenkins,

715
00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:42,080
Speaker 1: Lowden County Sheriff, Tennessee, struck and killed in a line

716
00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:46,200
Speaker 1: of duty. US Air Force vet twenty years with Louden County.

717
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:51,720
Speaker 1: Survived by grieving children Clay and Chloe, mourning fiance Christy

718
00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:58,759
Speaker 1: and canine partner. Deja vu American hero Sergeant Chris Jenkins.

719
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:05,160
Speaker 1: Nancy signing off goodbye friend,