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Speaker 1: Trust me. Do you trust me? Right?

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Speaker 2: Ever lead you a story?

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Speaker 1: Trust?

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Speaker 3: This is the truth, the only truth.

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Speaker 4: If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't

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Speaker 4: welcome to trust me. The podcast about cults, extreme belief

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Speaker 4: and manipulation from two squirrels. I've actually experienced it. I'm

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Speaker 4: Lola Plong and I'm Megan Elizabeth, and today our guest

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Speaker 4: is researcher Tim's squirrel. We're going to talk to him

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Speaker 4: about in cells and man stuff. He is going to

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Speaker 4: tell us about the taxonomy of the manosphere, the differences

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Speaker 4: between in cells and red pill, and lots more terms.

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Speaker 3: I didn't know how.

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Speaker 4: Some of these subcultures promote improving yourself and others promote

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Speaker 4: rotting and giving up, but all promote misogyny and harmful,

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Speaker 4: often dangerous ideas.

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Speaker 2: We'll discuss why these cultures are also bad for the

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Speaker 2: people and them, often leading to risky behavior and get

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Speaker 2: rich quick schemes, and what to do if someone you

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Speaker 2: know is stuck in the manosphere.

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Speaker 3: Oh, bad place to be stuck.

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Speaker 4: Place to be stuck. Tim is so funny. I feel

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Speaker 4: like we were we loved him. Yeah, so this is

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Speaker 4: a very fun funny episode. Despite that some of the

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Speaker 4: stuff we're talking about obviously can lead to some dark.

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Speaker 3: Places, and I think it has to be noted.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it must be said that on the way

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Speaker 2: to this interview, I had a squirrel. I'm really fucked

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Speaker 2: up over it. Okay, I know for his name to

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Speaker 2: be Tim Squirrel. I thought it was weird. No, it

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Speaker 2: was weird. Okay, before we go into the manisphere with Tim. Oh, Megan,

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Speaker 2: what's your cultiest thing this week?

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Speaker 3: Okay?

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Speaker 2: Will Kim Kardashian is speaking out about having Stockholm syndrome

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Speaker 2: with Kanye West, which is a term that we hear

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Speaker 2: a lot in the cult world. It's when you get

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Speaker 2: kind of attached to your abuser, right or your system

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Speaker 2: of abuse. So a lot of people in cults kind

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Speaker 2: of start to love their cults or their cult leader

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Speaker 2: or their abusive partner or whatever. So there's been a

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Speaker 2: lot of discourse about Stockholm syndrome, and I'll a lot

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Speaker 2: of the comments are.

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Speaker 4: Like, that's not real. Oh please, oh puh oh please.

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Speaker 4: And it was this in the Call Her Daddy episode. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: I have not listened to it yet. I heard that

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Speaker 4: it was very interesting because yeah, you look at her

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Speaker 4: being with someone like Kanye, and at least for me,

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Speaker 4: I was like, but they're there are four children, they

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Speaker 4: had four children, and of course your brain wants to

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Speaker 4: go to why why would you stay for that? But

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Speaker 4: that's what happens. Your brain like fuses to a person

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Speaker 4: and it becomes very, very difficult to leave. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 4: I can't wait to listen to that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, she's a complex presence that I haven't

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Speaker 2: but yeah, no one deserves that, so uh yeah, I

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Speaker 2: just it's just bring bring in another cult tournam into

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Speaker 2: the zeitgeist. So thought i'd bring it up here. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and I love it. Thanks, You're welcome.

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Speaker 3: What about you? What's the cultiest thing of your week?

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Speaker 4: There is a news story about a group, a religious

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Speaker 4: group of course in southern California actually called His Way

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Speaker 4: spirit Led Assemblies, and this sounds like there is a

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Speaker 4: lot that's about to be uncovered. So basically it's run

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Speaker 4: by a couple. The man is the priest and the

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Speaker 4: woman is the prophetess, Daryl Martin and Kat Martin. So

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Speaker 4: there was a child that died fifteen years ago, four

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Speaker 4: year old, whose custody had been handed over to this couple,

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Speaker 4: and nothing came of it. At the time because there

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Speaker 4: just wasn't enough evidence that they had actually done anything.

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Speaker 4: But a man went missing in Claremont in twenty nineteen

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Speaker 4: who was also associated with this group, and another man

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Speaker 4: went missing in twenty twenty three who was also associated

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Speaker 4: with this group. So what is interesting about it is

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Speaker 4: that one of them, the one who went missing in

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Speaker 4: twenty twenty three, had just left a church and then

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Speaker 4: he went missing. And so now there are three. There's like,

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Speaker 4: there's a mysterious and two mysterious disappearances associate with this group,

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Speaker 4: which people have said is definitely a high control group.

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Speaker 3: These are allegations that are being made.

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Speaker 4: We don't know that much about what's been going on

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Speaker 4: in there, but these are very like concrete allegations that

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Speaker 4: have been made. So it will be very interesting to

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Speaker 4: see what happens with this case and what exactly happened

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Speaker 4: to those missing men.

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Speaker 3: That's sad, I know, I know, my god.

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Speaker 4: And right here in southern California, another California.

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Speaker 3: Cult, Oh my goodness.

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Speaker 4: The couple has been arrested and apparently a ton of

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Speaker 4: weapons have been recovered there, illegal weapons like converted fully

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Speaker 4: automatic rifles, ghost guns without serial numbers.

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Speaker 3: Sought off rifles.

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Speaker 4: This was like a big, big gun group and they

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Speaker 4: are looking for any members or former members to come

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Speaker 4: talk to them.

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Speaker 3: Do you know what the overarching belief of this group was.

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Speaker 4: I think it seems like it's just a religious group

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Speaker 4: where they're where Daryl is king. Well yeah, and Shelley

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Speaker 4: is prophetess.

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Speaker 2: Yeah cool and the opposite of cool, oh yeah, not cool.

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Speaker 4: So anyway, we'll keep y'all updated. If we learn more

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Speaker 4: about that, we should go investigate it. Yeah, we're professionals.

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Speaker 4: I did want to do that. I know we will,

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Speaker 4: we will, we will, But for now, I meant for

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Speaker 4: when I was for a living. I wanted to do

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Speaker 4: that for a living, when I was younger.

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Speaker 3: We will not know, we will, we will. We're going

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Speaker 3: to break a case. But for now, let's talk to

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Speaker 3: Tim Squirrels. Let's do it.

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Speaker 4: Welcome Tim Squirrel to trust me. Thank you for joining.

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Speaker 1: Us, Thanks so much for having me.

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Speaker 4: You are here with us today because I found some

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Speaker 4: of your work when googling in cells, as I tend

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Speaker 4: to do sometimes. You know, it's something we all have

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Speaker 4: to do. Can you talk to us a little bit

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Speaker 4: about your academic background and your area of work.

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Speaker 1: So look, there comes a time in everyone's life where

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Speaker 1: you have to google in cells. I think that time

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Speaker 1: came for me slightly earlier than a lot of people,

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Speaker 1: and that's probably why I'm here. So I started out

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Speaker 1: life by professional life, I guess as an academic. I

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Speaker 1: was doing a PhD at the University of Edinburgh and

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Speaker 1: I was looking at how people in the online communities

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Speaker 1: come to trust each other and form relationships of authority

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Speaker 1: and expertise. And when I started that in about twenty fifteen,

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Speaker 1: no one gave a shit because they thought that the

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Speaker 1: Internet didn't really matter. It was like an esoteric kind

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Speaker 1: of thing that this guy was doing as a kind

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Speaker 1: of self indulgent research project. And then people really rapidly

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Speaker 1: realized that actually did matterical a lot. I was looking

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Speaker 1: at Reddit and I got quite interested in how language spreads,

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Speaker 1: and the way that I became interested in in cells

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Speaker 1: particularly was I was looking at the spread of the

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Speaker 1: word cuck across Reddit, and I obviously realized that it

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Speaker 1: had really well initially started in the fetish community, but

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Speaker 1: then rapidly spread across the kind of men's rights space.

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Speaker 1: So a lot of them talking about the idea of

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Speaker 1: cooking or cuckoldry being in some way linked to feelings

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Speaker 1: of inferiority. There's a lot of race stuff in there.

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Speaker 1: But then I was thinking, well, what about other language

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Speaker 1: that we see in these spaces, and the language that

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Speaker 1: was increasingly common amongst the kind of extreme right I

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Speaker 1: was noticing was coming mostly from the in cell community,

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Speaker 1: or at least it was a disproportionate representation, And so

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Speaker 1: I started looking at the in cell guys and at

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Speaker 1: that point they were all on Reddit. This was before

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Speaker 1: the kind of Night of Long Knives when Reddit sort

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Speaker 1: of kicked all of them off, and after that I

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Speaker 1: sort of got quite absorbed in them for a little while.

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Speaker 1: It was a really good way of not doing my

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Speaker 1: PhD and doing something else. And so that's how I

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Speaker 1: became kind of fascinated within cells and how they have

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Speaker 1: a particular form of group identity. And I think there's

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Speaker 1: a lot to unpack there. I'm assuming you guys are

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Speaker 1: going to want to talk about them in terms of

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Speaker 1: kind of cultic or cultish sort of framing, and I

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Speaker 1: haven't seen that done too much. But the more I

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Speaker 1: thought about it, while I was listening to a couple

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Speaker 1: of you guys, older episodes, the more it made a

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Speaker 1: little bit of sense to me.

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Speaker 4: Do you think there's a world in which you could

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Speaker 4: have ended up as an inseell?

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Speaker 1: I think? Do I think there's a world in which

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Speaker 1: I could have ended up as an in cell? I

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Speaker 1: think is a question that a lot of people who

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Speaker 1: have worked in this field have asked themselves, and I

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Speaker 1: think the answer for almost everyone is both yes and no.

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Speaker 1: I think that it's kind of trite to do the

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Speaker 1: if only life hadn't gone the way went for me,

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Speaker 1: that maybe I would have been there, you know, there

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Speaker 1: but for the grace of God go I. But I

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Speaker 1: do think that looking back on my teenage years, there

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Speaker 1: is certainly periods of time where I was more embittered

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Speaker 1: or more feeling as though, you know, I was never

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Speaker 1: going to be attractive, going to be popular, never going

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Speaker 1: to be wanted. And those are the feelings that provide

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Speaker 1: the seeds in which misogynistic beliefs can grow. But they

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Speaker 1: can grow in a number of different directions, right, so

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Speaker 1: for some people you end up in the red pill

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Speaker 1: space where they go, Okay, I feel like no one

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Speaker 1: wants me the way that I'm going to deal with this,

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Speaker 1: and that I'm going to go to the gym, get

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Speaker 1: really ripped, and I'm going to earn a shipload of money,

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Speaker 1: and that's the thing that's going to allow me to

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Speaker 1: become popular for women, right, But then the in cell

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Speaker 1: path is different to that, to backlash to that. So

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Speaker 1: that's the black pill, the idea that not only am

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Speaker 1: I not popular now, but I'm never going to be wanted.

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Speaker 1: No one's ever going to want me, no woman will

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Speaker 1: ever want to fuck me. And consequently, I'm just going

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Speaker 1: to embrace this kind of nihilistic set of beliefs. And

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Speaker 1: where you go, which direction you go, is dependent on

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Speaker 1: a whole bunch of different factors, in the same way

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Speaker 1: that people with different kinds of vulnerabilities can get drawn

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Speaker 1: into different kinds of cults or different kinds of movements.

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Speaker 1: You know, for some people it's going to be really

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Speaker 1: new age or spiritual people, it's going to be much

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Speaker 1: more in the fascist direction.

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Speaker 3: I mean, self help is already so.

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Speaker 2: It's rich for culty behaviors to emerge, and in some

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Speaker 2: weird way, it's like this in cell movement is an

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Speaker 2: inverse self help group, where people are relating to it

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Speaker 2: as if it is self help.

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Speaker 1: For sure. In fact, if you look at certain parts

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Speaker 1: of the in cell community, increasingly they're over the last

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Speaker 1: five years or so, they have become very self helpy.

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Speaker 1: So luks maxing has become really main industry, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: like the idea that it's everything from you know, really

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Speaker 1: basic stuff sort of the standard like go to the gym,

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Speaker 1: lose some weight, change your diet, get a haircut, have

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Speaker 1: a shower, through to I'm going to break my fucking

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Speaker 1: legs in order to get them lengthened and like undergo

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Speaker 1: horrifying surgery that wouldn't be out of place in the

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Speaker 1: horror movie. And so that is self help, but it's

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Speaker 1: also absurd. Yeah, so yeah, there's that part of it.

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Speaker 1: But I also think that what you're saying about the

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Speaker 1: being the inverse of self help is very interesting because

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Speaker 1: there are certain ways in which the in cel space

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Speaker 1: specifically is a reaction to a self help movement. It's

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Speaker 1: the idea that nothing can get better, you might as

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Speaker 1: well and their words lay down and rot, and that

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Speaker 1: that's the really common term. Going back again, this is

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Speaker 1: like twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen, and they used to call

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Speaker 1: it the down and rot lifestyle or they'd say, you

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Speaker 1: hope or rope or hope rope or cope, like the

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Speaker 1: idea that you would either kill yourself or you would cope.

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Speaker 1: And specific cope has a specific, actually kind of technical meaning,

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Speaker 1: which is that it's the idea you're going to embrace

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Speaker 1: beliefs that will never actually make your life better, but

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Speaker 1: which you'll kind of consistently believe will. And so they

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Speaker 1: would see any kind of self help stuff as a cope.

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Speaker 3: That is so fascinating.

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Speaker 4: So I like, I just have this general idea of manisphere.

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Speaker 4: I know a bit about pickup artist stuff, but that's

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Speaker 4: more like pre this era of internet, more like early

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Speaker 4: two thousands.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you're sort of like mid two thousands nil

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Speaker 1: Strauss the game.

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Speaker 4: Yes, I like wrote an art I've like gone on

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Speaker 4: pickup artists weekends and written about it and so but

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Speaker 4: excellent in terms of right now. Like okay, so you

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Speaker 4: say there's in Cells, which are it's more nihilistic sort

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Speaker 4: of attitude, and then there's red Pill, Like what else

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Speaker 4: is there where does.

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Speaker 3: Andrew Taite fallen all of this?

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Speaker 1: Oh god?

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Speaker 4: Okay and wait, sorry, just to real quick for any

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Speaker 4: listeners who don't know in Cell means involuntary celibate. It

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Speaker 4: means somebody who women do not want to have sex

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Speaker 4: with and they're mad about it.

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Speaker 3: And there are people who just don't know that term.

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Speaker 4: So go on.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, sorry, I've started from a level of like a

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Speaker 1: baseline assumption about exposure to the term in cell at

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Speaker 1: this point. Yeah, and we'll see. So the classical and

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Speaker 1: I say classical as though it's like hellenistic, but I

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Speaker 1: mean classical is in about five ten years ago. Taxonomy

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Speaker 1: of the manosphere is in cells in one corner, blackpill.

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Speaker 1: The idea is that, like the locus of control, whether

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Speaker 1: you're able to change your own existence, your own life

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Speaker 1: is external, that is, and you cannot change it is

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Speaker 1: kind of inherent in the world. You've got men going

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Speaker 1: their own way or MiG taw in another corner, and

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Speaker 1: they are the ones who sort of say we need

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Speaker 1: to stop talking to women entirely, completely disengage from women,

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Speaker 1: and go sometimes monk mode. So you basically you're going

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Speaker 1: to try and disentangle your life from matriarchy.

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Speaker 3: This is so weird.

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Speaker 4: My date I went on two days ago used these terms,

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Speaker 4: including literally saying he is in monk mode right now.

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Speaker 3: Sorry, go on. Oh no, no, no, no, no, sorry. Continue.

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Speaker 3: I was like, wait, what.

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Speaker 1: Will there be a second date?

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Speaker 3: Well?

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Speaker 4: He literally was like, I'm not dating right now. I

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Speaker 4: shouldn't have even gotten on this date.

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Speaker 3: Oh well, it sounds like he's a meg Towers about

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Speaker 3: what he did say.

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Speaker 4: He's like, very fascinated by in cell communities, and he

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Speaker 4: didn't reference meg Tao as something he's doing. I don't

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Speaker 4: am I saying you're wrong. I don't know what the

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Speaker 4: fuck it is. But he was sort of explaining it

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Speaker 4: to me.

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Speaker 3: Going towards going their own way.

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Speaker 4: But then the fact that he literally described himself as

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Speaker 4: in monk mode is shocking.

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Speaker 1: Oh.

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Speaker 2: I mean I feel like it's it's dripped into almost

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Speaker 2: every man's unconscious.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that is precisely what I was going to say,

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Speaker 1: is that not everyone who gets a bit obsessed within

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Speaker 1: cell communities is terrible.

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Speaker 4: For sure, I'm obsessed within cell communities. Yeah, but you're

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Speaker 4: also terrible.

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Speaker 5: Well that's true of self interested reason for saying that

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Speaker 5: this stuff has become deeply mainstream.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the idea of chads and stacies, of looksmaxing, the

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Speaker 1: idea of talking about virgins in like this really specific way,

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Speaker 1: the idea of being black pilled, right, is one that

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Speaker 1: a lot more people, maybe not you know your uncle,

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Speaker 1: but a lot of folks just who are vaguely online

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Speaker 1: but aren't really immersed in the mansphere would now know about.

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Speaker 1: And the idea of being pilled is so so mainstream now,

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Speaker 1: and obviously that comes from the red pill. But it's

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Speaker 1: possible that your day is a meg tail. He's just

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Speaker 1: a guy who's picked up some with vocabulary.

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Speaker 2: I think it's more likely that, but well, yeah, I

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Speaker 2: mean it just the way the algorithm works is so bizarre,

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Speaker 2: and we'll get into it, i'm sure in a bit.

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Speaker 2: But like I had a relationship with somebody who was

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Speaker 2: like I love that you go to the gem and

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Speaker 2: I love that's one of your coping mechanisms.

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Speaker 3: Yay go you, and I was like thank you.

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Speaker 2: And then he got red pilled by some sort of

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Speaker 2: like algorithm where he'd be like, I know you're going

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Speaker 2: to the gem to cheat on me?

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Speaker 3: What? Literally? What?

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Speaker 4: And I love to hook up with people while I'm sweating,

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Speaker 4: but it was and then like I told one of

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Speaker 4: my guy friends and he was like, yeah, I see

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Speaker 4: that content all the time, And I was like, oh

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Speaker 4: my god, make it make us up anyway.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a red pill example. Corrector is that a

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Speaker 3: black pill?

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, that's much more red pill and

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Speaker 1: that's much more so just to I guess, round off

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Speaker 1: our taxonomy. So you've got your insults, you've got your

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Speaker 1: mag towls, you've got your pick up artists who lowly

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Speaker 1: you've talked about, and then you've got your classic red

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Speaker 1: pill like men's rights activists. Okay, so think of in

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Speaker 1: the UK, we had this group called Fathers for Justice

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Speaker 1: and in the mid two thousands, and they became quite

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Speaker 1: well known for being very divorced and also for doing

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Speaker 1: things like dressing up as Spider Man and climbing up

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Speaker 1: buildings in order to protest for kind of father's rights.

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Speaker 1: The idea is that custody courts are particularly unfair to men.

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Speaker 1: You know, you're real classic wow, I'm a man and

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Speaker 1: I'm oppressed sort of stuff. You know, I hate alimony,

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Speaker 1: my ex wife's a bitch like that kind of thing.

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Speaker 3: And did you refer to them as very divorced?

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah yeah, extremely divorced?

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Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, okay, wow, that is so interesting.

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Speaker 4: I know, I mean, like I'm sure there's like there

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Speaker 4: are valid points to be made, they're about custody battles

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Speaker 4: like that.

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Speaker 3: Then that's the problem, Yeah, that.

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Speaker 2: All of these things have a little kernels of truth there.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, as with all conspiracy theories, we're all cults, we're

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Speaker 1: all extreme beliefs, there's some small seed of truth around

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Speaker 1: which everything rots. Right today and this is where we're

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Speaker 1: in a slightly different space, a lot of this stuff

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Speaker 1: a has gone mainstream. I mean, there was a lot

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Speaker 1: of discourse after the second Trump election around the idea

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Speaker 1: that managecer influencers were in some way responsible for the

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Speaker 1: election result. I'm not going to comment on that specific claim,

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Speaker 1: but it's mainstream. And also there is a lot more

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Speaker 1: kind of agglomeration of manisphere and misogyny with grindset, hustle

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Speaker 1: culture spaces. Right, So it used to be that you

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Speaker 1: could just go to a sub reddite and talk about

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Speaker 1: how much he hated when men, and no one was

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Speaker 1: trying to make money out of it. You know, we've

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Speaker 1: lost we've lost sight of the true meaning of misogyny.

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Speaker 2: It's been commercialized.

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Speaker 1: Right, exactly, exactly. No longer can you just enjoy a

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Speaker 1: bit of misogyny with your pals in a Reddit forum.

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Speaker 1: It's a sort of amateur way. It's all professionalized these days.

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Speaker 1: Joking aside, though, if you look at someone like Andrew Tate,

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Speaker 1: that's precisely the personification of this, right, Because it's not

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Speaker 1: just about inculcating beliefs that women are inferior, that they

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Speaker 1: are intrinsically gonna cheat on you because they're going to

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Speaker 1: the gym and they're going to end up with Chad

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Speaker 1: or Tyrone or whoever. It's also about getting money out

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Speaker 1: of you. Yes, And not only is it about getting

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Speaker 1: money out of you, but it's about making you believe

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Speaker 1: that you're going to make money in the process.

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Speaker 3: Right, So it's a pyramids. I was going to say,

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Speaker 3: it's like MLMs for men.

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Speaker 1: mL Men's sorry, I was making a few and amens,

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Speaker 1: don't worry.

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Speaker 3: I was like multi level marketing and Tim.

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Speaker 1: Honey, honey, MLM familiar America. We have these things we

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Speaker 1: call the MLMs and schemes. Legally, they're not.

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Speaker 4: People like Andrew Tate are swooping in to these communities

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Speaker 4: who have an unmet want or need and basically saying

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Speaker 4: I have the answer for you, and if you give

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Speaker 4: me this money and join my fucking thing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah that's a great summary.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but how do they make money off of it?

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Speaker 3: How do they like? Then they're saying, then you'll start

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Speaker 3: your own little Andrew Tate group and you'll be the leader.

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Speaker 1: It depends on Okay. So it used to be if

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Speaker 1: you and Neil Strauss you'd write the game, you'd cash

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Speaker 1: in on that. And if you were a pick up artist,

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Speaker 1: you would sell your ebooks online and then you'd sell

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Speaker 1: a course and people would come to your course and

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Speaker 1: you'd shout them in person, and you tell me they

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Speaker 1: weren't real men. But if they just followed the things

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Speaker 1: that you were telling them, when they could become real men.

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Speaker 1: Now it's more sophisticated, but it's also just as simple.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: So Andrew Tait was making money by getting people to

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Speaker 1: subscribe to his Hustler's University Bullshit, which then became known

404
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Speaker 1: as the Real World. And the idea was that if

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Speaker 1: you caught enough controversy and you made your name big

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Speaker 1: enough that loads of people would come, and loads of

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Speaker 1: them would hate you, it didn't matter because some of

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Speaker 1: them would subscribe to your scheme to get to you

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Speaker 1: in a circle where you would teach them the principles,

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Speaker 1: which is basically a real it's selling them an ebook

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Speaker 1: with extra steps, except that now there's a subscription and

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Speaker 1: there's the idea that you're part of an intentional community.

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Speaker 1: It's very similar to the shift from diet or like

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Speaker 1: beauty communities, where they started as like I going to

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Speaker 1: sell you this ebook that's going to teach you how

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Speaker 1: to like I know it was the early twenty ten,

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Speaker 1: so it's probably like completely lose your ass or like

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Speaker 1: you like become a sig zero yep. But now it's

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Speaker 1: all like, this isn't just a diet, this is a lifestyle,

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Speaker 1: and this is a community and you're joining a tribe.

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Speaker 1: Like that's where we are now with misogynists joining an

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Speaker 1: intentional community built of only the finest misogyny.

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Speaker 4: So are you saying that what they're offering is like, sorry,

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Speaker 4: clarify something for me, that being controversial will bring people

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Speaker 4: to you as well, like their marketing that you too

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Speaker 4: can be controversial and make money being controversial.

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Speaker 1: So the marketing for what you should do is slightly different.

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Speaker 1: So some of it, yes, is the idea that if

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Speaker 1: you get really really good at this, then like maybe

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Speaker 1: you could be the next strandry take, you could caught controversy,

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Speaker 1: you could have a podcast, you could create a community.

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Speaker 1: But actually a lot of it says that the best

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Speaker 1: way to make money is through what amounts to get

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Speaker 1: rich quick schemes. So the really popular ones are drop shipping,

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Speaker 1: foreign currency exchange, day trading, cryptocurrency only, fans management, which

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Speaker 1: is a whole like can of worms. That basically all

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00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:25,800
Speaker 1: of these methods by which you can make loads and

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00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:27,840
Speaker 1: loads of money and you don't need to go to school.

439
00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:30,600
Speaker 1: You should drop out of school, you should become an entrepreneur.

440
00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:32,440
Speaker 1: You just hustle really hard. Right, So this is where

441
00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:35,560
Speaker 1: I say it comes into collision with hustle culture and

442
00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:39,440
Speaker 1: the sort of sigma grindset bullshit, is that the idea

443
00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:41,520
Speaker 1: is that you don't need any of these fancy ast

444
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:44,880
Speaker 1: degrees in your profession. You're in your career. Your career

445
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:48,400
Speaker 1: is basically finding the next grift and exploiting the hell

446
00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:50,080
Speaker 1: out of it, and that will allow you to make

447
00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:52,200
Speaker 1: six figures, move to Dubai and drive a baghatti.

448
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:57,359
Speaker 4: And that's the that's the vibe ore in cells, like,

449
00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:00,840
Speaker 4: what's the thinking in that community in terms of becoming

450
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:03,280
Speaker 4: rich and making money. If it's more of that nihilistic

451
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:05,000
Speaker 4: like don't improve yourself thing.

452
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:10,359
Speaker 1: The insults have changed over the last five to ten years.

453
00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:13,399
Speaker 1: There was a kind of period where it was all

454
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,800
Speaker 1: about Lukism. So the idea was that your destiny in

455
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:20,640
Speaker 1: life was determined by your facial genetics and your hypight

456
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:24,040
Speaker 1: and things about your looks that can't really be changed

457
00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:27,600
Speaker 1: very easily. And my view on this was always that

458
00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:31,760
Speaker 1: if you located the things that were problematic and preventing

459
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:34,840
Speaker 1: you from achieving your goals in the things that were

460
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 1: the hardest change, then that prevented you from having to

461
00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:41,720
Speaker 1: do anything about it. Right, So it's not just that

462
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:45,280
Speaker 1: like you are a bit overweight perhaps, and that people

463
00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:47,720
Speaker 1: might find you more attractive if you are to lose

464
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 1: some weight. Not trying to judge that as a true

465
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:53,119
Speaker 1: or false statement, but that might be some advice that

466
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:56,399
Speaker 1: someone would give. They say that is the very first

467
00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,239
Speaker 1: thing you should do, and that only after that can

468
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:02,960
Speaker 1: you really call yoursel of an insult, because you've done

469
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:04,520
Speaker 1: all the things that are meant to make you attractive

470
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:07,359
Speaker 1: and you're still not there. So you're like, your wrists

471
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:13,080
Speaker 1: are too thin, your cancel tilt is wrong, your jaw

472
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 1: is slightly too recessed.

473
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:19,040
Speaker 4: I've rejected so many men for their wrist size.

474
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:22,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, number one, that's exactly what I've come to expect

475
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:23,480
Speaker 1: from Stacy's like you.

476
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:27,400
Speaker 3: Oh my god, am I Stacy?

477
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:27,800
Speaker 2: Thank you?

478
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:32,280
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, one hundred percent. You'd be Stacy on the

479
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:34,000
Speaker 1: insul wards. I'm sure they would agree.

480
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:37,560
Speaker 4: And for audience members, yes, can you actually tell us

481
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:39,240
Speaker 4: what Stacy versus a child?

482
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:43,640
Speaker 1: Fuck? So, Chad is the guy who's got everything going

483
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:47,399
Speaker 1: for him. He's six foot three, he's jacked, he's ripped,

484
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:52,440
Speaker 1: he's high status, and he's got a really big jaw.

485
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:57,159
Speaker 1: And essentially this means that all women forever will want

486
00:25:57,200 --> 00:25:59,200
Speaker 1: to have sex with Chad, and we want to settle

487
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:01,680
Speaker 1: down with Chad. Chad will never want to settle down

488
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:05,040
Speaker 1: with any of them, because he can do better always.

489
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:08,200
Speaker 1: The idea that in Cells have is that they call

490
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:11,680
Speaker 1: it the Peruito principle, that eighty percent of women want

491
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:15,320
Speaker 1: twenty percent of the men, and that those men are Chad.

492
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:20,280
Speaker 1: To confirm, I looked for myself a while back on

493
00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:22,160
Speaker 1: the in cell boards. They think I'm a Chad light.

494
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:24,480
Speaker 1: So I've got some work to do Oh.

495
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:30,200
Speaker 3: My god, no, you are a chad what Yeah? What's remaining?

496
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:34,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, look don't I don't know. Maybe they're nagging me,

497
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:38,280
Speaker 1: who knows anyway, So the LOOKI is and thing was

498
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:40,280
Speaker 1: big for a while and then you had a bunch

499
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,320
Speaker 1: of them basically say no, no, it's not just looks.

500
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 1: It's about whether you're autistic or not, or whether you

501
00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:50,040
Speaker 1: have developmental or like neurodivergent issues that mean that you

502
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:54,680
Speaker 1: can't attract women. And the reason for this, in part

503
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:57,720
Speaker 1: is because they're patron Saint Elliott Roger, who killed a

504
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:02,040
Speaker 1: number of people than himself in twenty fourteen, Basically his

505
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 1: whole thing was, yes, a little bit about how he looked,

506
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 1: but also about how he girls just laughed at him,

507
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:12,359
Speaker 1: how he was, you know, the supreme gentleman, but they

508
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,879
Speaker 1: didn't want him anyway. And in cells broadly tend to

509
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:17,639
Speaker 1: agree that his main issue was not to do with

510
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 1: his looks, but was to do with his abilities socially.

511
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:24,440
Speaker 1: So it's a big clash interesting between the lookists and

512
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:28,120
Speaker 1: people who think that autism in particular, but your kind

513
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 1: of social skills in general are more important. So what

514
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:34,720
Speaker 1: interesting day is what comes out of that is much

515
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:36,760
Speaker 1: more of a kind of agreement with some of the

516
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:40,359
Speaker 1: earlier red pill guys that actually what matters isn't just

517
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:45,920
Speaker 1: your looks or whether you're neurotypical, but also things like status, wealth, etc.

518
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:48,400
Speaker 1: And the idea is that if you make enough money,

519
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:50,639
Speaker 1: if you become high enough status, you can overcome all

520
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 1: these things, right, like how do you account for the

521
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 1: existence of Danny DeVito or someone? And the idea is

522
00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 1: that if you are sufficiently high status, then you can stuff.

523
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:02,439
Speaker 1: Of course, they then go into a lot of they

524
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:05,640
Speaker 1: extrapolate this to the most hideous things you can imagine.

525
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:08,399
Speaker 1: So they talk about jad maxing, which is the idea

526
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 1: that you should move to a conservative bosom country, convert

527
00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:15,440
Speaker 1: to Islam, and have multiple wives. You should try to

528
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 1: go to a place which is misogynistic. They talk about

529
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,560
Speaker 1: geomaxing or globe maxing, which is the idea that you

530
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 1: should move to a country where white people are seen

531
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 1: as more attractive or where your money will go further,

532
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:32,639
Speaker 1: and then you should use that as a way to

533
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:36,239
Speaker 1: exploit women into having a relationship with you. So they

534
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 1: start to understand power dynamics, which I think is fascinating

535
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 1: about in cells because they kind of there is a

536
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 1: bizarro reverse feminism about them, where in the red pill

537
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 1: community you've got a kind of liberal feminism in reverse. Right.

538
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 1: The idea is that if you personally strive hard enough,

539
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,959
Speaker 1: work hard enough on yourself, on your body, on your wealth,

540
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:07,720
Speaker 1: then you can succeed, right, you can overcome everything. And

541
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 1: the insults have a radical feminist reverse reaction to that,

542
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 1: which is like, no, it's all about structural conditions. It's

543
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:18,360
Speaker 1: all about not just like are you rips high status

544
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 1: and pigh net worth, but also are you white? Are

545
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 1: you in a country which prizes whiteness? Do you have autism?

546
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 1: Or are you autistic? Those are the sort of thing

547
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:32,440
Speaker 1: they start to talk about, and they kind of get

548
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 1: to intersectionality.

549
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:35,520
Speaker 3: That's fascinating, But.

550
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 1: Then they go all the way back around and go, ah, no,

551
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 1: the problem is that women are fundamentally genetically programmed to

552
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 1: fuck with you.

553
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 5: Wow.

554
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 1: So I don't think I actually answer your question there,

555
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 1: but I find it interesting. So I've said it.

556
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:51,480
Speaker 4: No, it's super interesting. I feel like I have one

557
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:52,680
Speaker 4: thousand more questions.

558
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:53,920
Speaker 3: But I'm trying me too.

559
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 2: I mean, I just have one observation and it just

560
00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 2: feels like this is a depression, and it's taken this

561
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:03,000
Speaker 2: ugly because these men aren't allowed to be like, I'm

562
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 2: super depressed.

563
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:04,880
Speaker 3: I don't know.

564
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 1: I think that is part of it. I also think

565
00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 1: that there are horribly high expectations for what you, as

566
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:18,400
Speaker 1: a teenage boy, should be able to do and for

567
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 1: what you should be and I think that it's very

568
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 1: easy to become disillusioned as a result of that.

569
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 6: I think that's becoming worse and worse, particularly as people

570
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 6: spend time on social media, where there are these projections

571
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 6: of perfection which you're expected to be able to attain.

572
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I think that a lot of them do

573
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 1: recognize that they are depressed, So I don't want to

574
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 1: put too much weight on internal surveys of in cell boards.

575
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:48,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, but yeah, let's go there.

576
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 1: Most of them do think of themselves as having a

577
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 1: mental health condition. A lot of them think of themselves

578
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:58,240
Speaker 1: as having the neurodivergence of some kind. So they consider

579
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 1: themselves depressed, and unfortunately a lot of them do consider suicide.

580
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 1: And what I think is interesting is that they are

581
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:14,479
Speaker 1: very manipulable as a group and very vulnerable. So, if

582
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:18,960
Speaker 1: you'll permit me, an indulgent flashback to twenty eighteen when

583
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:22,280
Speaker 1: I first started looking at in cell boards after they've

584
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 1: been kicked off of Reddit, what is now still the

585
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:29,120
Speaker 1: biggest in cell war room began and it's gone through

586
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 1: a lot of different iterations. It's still run by the

587
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 1: same people though, and on there there were far fewer

588
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:37,560
Speaker 1: rules than they were on Reddit, and it was essentially

589
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 1: a kind of mix of Reddit culture with four Chan

590
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 1: culture in that it was really fast loads of ship posting.

591
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:48,320
Speaker 1: No one took anything seriously. People said the edges possible

592
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 1: stuff they could, and they had a real problem with

593
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 1: pedophiles coming there and recruiting in cells. And there was

594
00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 1: this one particular guy who used it as a recruiting

595
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:02,880
Speaker 1: ground for his now defunct forum. The guy's now dead.

596
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 1: Actually it's a really weird story. He called inser locallipse,

597
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:12,280
Speaker 1: And on inter loc ellipse he was posting behind a

598
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 1: login wall, posting in decent images of children and child

599
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 1: sectual abuse material. And I remember someone saying at the time,

600
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:24,720
Speaker 1: this is the only place, the in cell forum is

601
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 1: the only place where coming in and saying hey, you're

602
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:31,120
Speaker 1: super depressed and no one will love you. Have you

603
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 1: thought about abusing children? Isn't a complete non starter, because

604
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 1: the idea is that these people are completely desperate and

605
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:43,800
Speaker 1: there is a lot of flirtation in those spaces with

606
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:51,280
Speaker 1: things which are completely societally taboo because they feel isolated,

607
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:54,200
Speaker 1: they feel alienated from society, and they feel sometimes as

608
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 1: though their only option would be to do something horrible.

609
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 1: And also there is that kind of I'm playing up

610
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:04,040
Speaker 1: for the cameras, I'm doing something edgy, I'm saying something edgy.

611
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 1: So it's not just earnest embracing of really awful stuff,

612
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 1: it's also kind of doing it for the bit. Yeah.

613
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:15,120
Speaker 4: That brings me to the next thing I wanted to ask,

614
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:19,480
Speaker 4: which is, like, you know, say someone I feel like

615
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 4: I've heard someone before be like, but Andrew Tad has

616
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 4: some good videos like what would you to a newbie

617
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 4: who's like not familiar with the manisphere? What would you

618
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 4: say are the dangers or harms of these communities in

619
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:32,480
Speaker 4: addition to what you just described.

620
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:37,720
Speaker 1: So it's really hard not to start at the real

621
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:42,520
Speaker 1: extreme here. Because I want to note off the bat

622
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:45,320
Speaker 1: that the guys who run the biggest in cell forum

623
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:48,840
Speaker 1: on the web also run another forum which I'm not

624
00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 1: going to name, which encourages suicide and provides people with

625
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 1: information about how to kill themselves.

626
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:56,120
Speaker 4: Oh my god.

627
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:59,640
Speaker 1: And there's been numerous investigations since this forum, and a

628
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 1: few years ago it was credibly linked with about fifty deaths.

629
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 3: Fifty. Wow.

630
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's still going, it's still around. The British governments

631
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:12,040
Speaker 1: tried to do something about it. They failed. It's very

632
00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:15,399
Speaker 1: very hard to take down a website, it turns out,

633
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:19,399
Speaker 1: even if you use legislation, and so that's still going.

634
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 1: It's still run by the same guys and they are awful. Now.

635
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:27,320
Speaker 1: Their argument is that we're not pro suicide with pro choice,

636
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 1: which is a horrifying adoption of the language of liberation.

637
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:32,399
Speaker 3: Right.

638
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:35,880
Speaker 1: But yeah, so the worst thing that can happen is

639
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:39,200
Speaker 1: that you get sucked into this and it encourages you

640
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 1: to not just absorb horrifying misogyny but also to potentially

641
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:49,279
Speaker 1: end your own life. But the misogyny is pretty bad.

642
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:53,719
Speaker 1: So the harms are also that this doesn't help you

643
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:56,760
Speaker 1: in any way, that this is a bucket of crabs

644
00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:00,920
Speaker 1: that you will never escape from. Because if you spend

645
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:03,480
Speaker 1: a lot of time in an in self forum, it's

646
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:06,759
Speaker 1: not somewhere where people want you to get better. Hey,

647
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:09,480
Speaker 1: it's somewhere where people want to drag you down as

648
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:13,359
Speaker 1: far as possible to feel the same pain that they feel. Right,

649
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:16,839
Speaker 1: you found the worst self help place on earth, right,

650
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 1: So that's one of the issues. But also it will

651
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:25,480
Speaker 1: inculcate in you the worst possible beliefs you could have

652
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:29,279
Speaker 1: about yourself and about other people. It will push you

653
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:35,800
Speaker 1: to say that women who are murdered deserved it because

654
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:38,640
Speaker 1: of the way that they had treated men by being

655
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:43,920
Speaker 1: sexually liberal. It will make you believe that girls who

656
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:46,799
Speaker 1: are murdered or raped deserved it because even if they

657
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 1: hadn't done anything bad, eventually they would have done That's.

658
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:53,359
Speaker 2: Where you get to I was just going to say,

659
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 2: And then that further isolates them because everyone else is like,

660
00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:58,279
Speaker 2: I fucking hate you, I don't care what you do.

661
00:35:58,520 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 3: Like it isolates you.

662
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:06,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, completely, there is. It's really really hard to not

663
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:09,080
Speaker 1: end up in a position where everyone just tells you

664
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:12,600
Speaker 1: to fuck off. And then that obviously means that you

665
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:16,040
Speaker 1: retreat into the forum that accepts you. Right, no one

666
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:19,400
Speaker 1: in your life understands you, so why not just stay

667
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:23,720
Speaker 1: in the in cell space. There's a big interactivity between

668
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:26,719
Speaker 1: the in cell spaces and the people who critique them

669
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:30,400
Speaker 1: where they used to be. I can't remember if there

670
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:32,960
Speaker 1: still is, but there's a big subreddit called in cell

671
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 1: tears where they would make fun of in cells. You know,

672
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:37,000
Speaker 1: they post the worst stuff the intel has been saying,

673
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:39,800
Speaker 1: they take the piss out of them. And there was

674
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:44,239
Speaker 1: a degree to which that was useful as a way

675
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:46,680
Speaker 1: of shaking away people who might be tempted by in

676
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:49,799
Speaker 1: cell stuff, because it can say, look, if you get

677
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 1: into this, people are going to mock you. Man, that's

678
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:55,719
Speaker 1: not great. But also it does isolate them further. And

679
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:59,320
Speaker 1: also the in cells started to just respond to the

680
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:02,080
Speaker 1: talking point, right, So they would say, look, I've had

681
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 1: three showers today and still no one wants to fuck me. Right,

682
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:09,960
Speaker 1: So they realize what is being said to them, and

683
00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:13,480
Speaker 1: they're able to construct narratives that invade those talking points

684
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 1: and they build on top of that. Right, you can't

685
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:18,680
Speaker 1: just use the same narratives over and over again expect

686
00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:21,080
Speaker 1: people not to adapt and change and work around them.

687
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:24,680
Speaker 4: Is there research on the mental health impact of just

688
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:28,480
Speaker 4: hating people or like staying in that sort of negative space,

689
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:31,280
Speaker 4: Like does that have an emotional nagging yourself?

690
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:34,439
Speaker 3: Hating women.

691
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know if there's particular research on that.

692
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:43,719
Speaker 1: I do know, so I've done a bit of work

693
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:46,400
Speaker 1: with the folks in November. I don't know if you

694
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:49,120
Speaker 1: know them. They're the guys who run the charity which

695
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:54,400
Speaker 1: you Grow. Yeah, yeah, and they obviously very interested in

696
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:58,279
Speaker 1: young men's health and they put out a report where

697
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 1: they've done a lot of research search into the effects

698
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:04,759
Speaker 1: on young men of engaging with what they call male

699
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:08,239
Speaker 1: lifestyle influencers the mana sphere to you and me, And

700
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 1: some of it was short term, kind of positive. They

701
00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:16,919
Speaker 1: saw themselves, as you know, increasingly motivated to do things

702
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:19,640
Speaker 1: like fitness and the gym and to kind of really

703
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 1: go out and get it. And that's how we get

704
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 1: into Andrew Tate is A you find him funny and

705
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 1: b you find him motivating. But obviously it starts to

706
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 1: drip feed you really horrible beliefs about women and also

707
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 1: horrible beliefs about yourself, and that can result in you

708
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 1: engaging and risky behaviors. So if your belief is that

709
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:42,440
Speaker 1: you have to get rich really quick and you have

710
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:46,160
Speaker 1: to get jacked really quick, then that's going to cause

711
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:48,440
Speaker 1: you or at least encourage you to do some things

712
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:49,120
Speaker 1: that are not helpful.

713
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:49,440
Speaker 5: Right.

714
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:53,280
Speaker 1: We know that the rate of steroid abuse amongst teenage

715
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 1: boys has skyrocketed. We know that there's increasing tendencies for

716
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:04,800
Speaker 1: younger boys and men to try to get into cryptocurrency

717
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:08,239
Speaker 1: and get into really dodgy kind of get rich quick schemes. Right.

718
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:12,640
Speaker 1: I know we talked about MLMs earlier, but this is

719
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 1: kind of the equivalent of that to some degree. Is

720
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:19,239
Speaker 1: you know, you're selling a crypto token, yeah, and you're

721
00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:21,440
Speaker 1: selling it to your followers, and your followers will buy

722
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:22,759
Speaker 1: it and you pump it and then you dump it

723
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:26,160
Speaker 1: and then they lose all their money. Right, So crypto

724
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:29,600
Speaker 1: is MLMs for boys basically, Yeah, And that is the

725
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:32,600
Speaker 1: sort of thing that you can end up in because

726
00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:36,200
Speaker 1: you started to find an interest in these guys because

727
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:38,759
Speaker 1: they were funny or they spoke to some of your insecurities. Right.

728
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:41,400
Speaker 2: And then, of course, and as in most cults, you know,

729
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:44,440
Speaker 2: the things you're starting to do are just making it

730
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:47,600
Speaker 2: more circular and worse. Like you start taking steroids and

731
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:52,200
Speaker 2: now your anger is fifty times than when you started,

732
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:54,160
Speaker 2: and you have a lot more energy.

733
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:57,279
Speaker 1: The steroids things so funny as well, because It's a

734
00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:03,319
Speaker 1: really common theme in like gym spaces online for guys

735
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:06,000
Speaker 1: to talk about how they started taking steroids or getting

736
00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:08,000
Speaker 1: really jacked because they wanted to appeal to women and

737
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:09,799
Speaker 1: now the only people who find them attractive for other

738
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:12,920
Speaker 1: men because so funny, it's all the other guys you

739
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:15,319
Speaker 1: also want to be jacked, who are like, wow, bro,

740
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:16,720
Speaker 1: what's your arm routine?

741
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:20,759
Speaker 4: Literally okay, yeah, had an ex boyfriend, very jacked. The

742
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:25,560
Speaker 4: people who commented on it the most, by far were others.

743
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:28,680
Speaker 3: Always, always, the dudes loved it.

744
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 4: If I okay, let's say I'm a guy on the internet,

745
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:35,840
Speaker 4: I am nineteen, how might I first be exposed to

746
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:37,320
Speaker 4: some of this content?

747
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:40,880
Speaker 1: These days, it's the algorithm. So it used to be

748
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:42,680
Speaker 1: you had to kind of go out looking for it.

749
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:45,799
Speaker 1: Back in the good old days of the internet, when,

750
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 1: as you say, you did some pick up artists they

751
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:51,600
Speaker 1: type stuff. When you're in the mid two thousands, you

752
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 1: know you'd have to find the place. You had to

753
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:56,880
Speaker 1: know what you were looking for, at least stumble on it.

754
00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:59,680
Speaker 1: Someone in the fore room had to recommend it. These days,

755
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:03,680
Speaker 1: if you are a boy on YouTube, then you're gonna

756
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:06,680
Speaker 1: see some Andrew Tate or maybe not Andrew Tate, but

757
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 1: you'll see some David Goggins, or you'll seizin Jordan Peterson.

758
00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:13,480
Speaker 1: And if you spend enough time hovering over that or

759
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:16,520
Speaker 1: watching that, or you comment on that or you like it,

760
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:19,920
Speaker 1: you're gonna see someone else. And that is the first

761
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:22,480
Speaker 1: way in which you'll get into the stuff. And what

762
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:24,880
Speaker 1: will probably happen first is it will be in the

763
00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:31,920
Speaker 1: context of something funny, right, it'll be comedic, and you'll

764
00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:35,400
Speaker 1: start by seeing it as this is all about jokes

765
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:37,759
Speaker 1: and having a laugh, and then you start to look

766
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:39,920
Speaker 1: into the other things that they're saying, and maybe you

767
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:42,439
Speaker 1: find something interesting in there, and maybe what you find

768
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:45,040
Speaker 1: interesting in what they have to say is about how

769
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:49,920
Speaker 1: women are sluts and will necessarily cheat on you. But

770
00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:53,960
Speaker 1: the problem is that it's so normalized. It's not just

771
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:58,319
Speaker 1: the manosphere anymore. You've got your trad wives, you've got

772
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:02,640
Speaker 1: your demosphere, You've got all sorts of stuff, which is

773
00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:06,239
Speaker 1: kind of normalizing this from both sides as well, where

774
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:09,280
Speaker 1: you've got women who are coming onto TikTok and saying,

775
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:11,279
Speaker 1: what I really want is a husband who's going to

776
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:13,040
Speaker 1: dominate me and be head of the household and earn

777
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:15,080
Speaker 1: all the money so that I don't have to do anything.

778
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:18,799
Speaker 2: Well, I mean yeah, yeah, I was just telling Lila

779
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:21,120
Speaker 2: I saw an article of a woman who signed on

780
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:23,440
Speaker 2: as a thirteen year old girl to TikTok just to

781
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:25,799
Speaker 2: see what happened, and immediately it was just like how

782
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:29,759
Speaker 2: to get an eating disorder, how to like and it's

783
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:32,400
Speaker 2: crazy that it just feeds it to you.

784
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 1: It is fucking endemic.

785
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:37,480
Speaker 4: Is that true for a teenage for young boys as well?

786
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:39,719
Speaker 4: I mean like a time it's like get a gun,

787
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:42,160
Speaker 4: Like what are the first things? I mean like, yeah,

788
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:42,799
Speaker 4: I know what's being.

789
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:44,600
Speaker 3: Served up to you. If you're a teenage boy and

790
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:45,640
Speaker 3: like on TikTok.

791
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:48,080
Speaker 1: Well, as you say, if you're a teenage girl you

792
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:49,879
Speaker 1: go on TikTok or we go on Instagram, then you're

793
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:51,400
Speaker 1: going to see eating to sort of stuff. You're going

794
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:54,960
Speaker 1: to see parana content. That has been the case for

795
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:58,960
Speaker 1: a very long time. It is just sometimes increasingly subtle

796
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:01,600
Speaker 1: and some times increasingly in your face. Right, there's just

797
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:03,360
Speaker 1: more of it. There's just more of everything now than

798
00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:05,800
Speaker 1: there was ten fifteen years ago. If you are a

799
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:09,720
Speaker 1: teenage boy, then you're gonna see stuff that is about

800
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:13,200
Speaker 1: sports and about the fuck I'm trying to think of

801
00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:13,919
Speaker 1: teenage boys.

802
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:17,840
Speaker 2: Like again, I was one for He's sake guns the

803
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:19,480
Speaker 2: article she did it with boys too, and it was

804
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:20,879
Speaker 2: like immediately like gun shit.

805
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:24,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, like you're gonna see the things that the

806
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:28,400
Speaker 1: algorithm thinks you what because they have profiled your demographic

807
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:32,000
Speaker 1: and if you are in the demographic that likes sports

808
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:34,400
Speaker 1: and guns, they're going to serve you fucking sports and guns.

809
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:36,759
Speaker 1: And maybe you might like to touch misogyny on the

810
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:39,600
Speaker 1: side as well, and that's how you start to get

811
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:44,360
Speaker 1: this stuff. It's insidious. Ah, I know, so sorry.

812
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 2: Mine serves me ASMR and cats and it's like, we

813
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:49,920
Speaker 2: know who you are.

814
00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:52,840
Speaker 4: Mine just shows me the worst political news that you

815
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:54,120
Speaker 4: could possibly imagine.

816
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:57,320
Speaker 3: That's all I see. That's literally my entire feed. So

817
00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:01,040
Speaker 3: what do we do? Can you fix it?

818
00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:06,279
Speaker 1: There is a reason I don't work on this quite

819
00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:11,439
Speaker 1: so much, really more because I find it so depressing. Yeah,

820
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:15,959
Speaker 1: partly because you know, being exposed to extreme content every

821
00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:19,640
Speaker 1: day for work is a way to break your brain

822
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:23,440
Speaker 1: in fairly short order. But also because so much of

823
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:29,160
Speaker 1: it is not just driven by individual choices. It's structural, right,

824
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:32,560
Speaker 1: It's about how our politics works. It's about how our

825
00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:36,040
Speaker 1: culture works. And what gives rise to the manisphere is

826
00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:38,400
Speaker 1: the same stuff that gives rise to all other parts

827
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:41,840
Speaker 1: of the system. But let's focus on something that we

828
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:46,200
Speaker 1: can maybe change, which is about technology. Because this has

829
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:49,440
Speaker 1: been turbo charged by the algorithm, and by the algorithm,

830
00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:51,840
Speaker 1: I know it's not just one thing that it's a

831
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:54,080
Speaker 1: huge number of things that are interacting with one another

832
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:56,480
Speaker 1: to create the thing that you see when you open techtok.

833
00:44:57,040 --> 00:45:01,800
Speaker 1: But the systems that they have built for Facebook, for TikTok,

834
00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:05,760
Speaker 1: for Instagram, for wherever are designed to be as addictive

835
00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:08,840
Speaker 1: as possible because the business model is the longer you

836
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:11,439
Speaker 1: spend on there, the more money they make from ads.

837
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:14,319
Speaker 1: And how do you make people spend longer on there?

838
00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:18,359
Speaker 1: You make them more engaged. And what does engagement look like, Well,

839
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:21,200
Speaker 1: it doesn't care whether you like something or hate it.

840
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:24,440
Speaker 1: All that matters is that you spend the time. So

841
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:27,520
Speaker 1: that means that it's designed to just make you spend

842
00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:29,400
Speaker 1: as long as possible on there. And that means that

843
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:31,640
Speaker 1: the most controversial things are things that go closest to

844
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:33,880
Speaker 1: the line without going over the line. Those are the

845
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:37,320
Speaker 1: things that get pushed to you. So the things that

846
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:39,920
Speaker 1: we can do are trying to push back against the

847
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:42,879
Speaker 1: idea that this is a business model that should be promoted. Right,

848
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:49,360
Speaker 1: so there is increasingly pressure elsewhere in the world to

849
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:52,080
Speaker 1: do stuff about this problem is that often it is

850
00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:57,719
Speaker 1: not perfect politically either. But I think that trying to

851
00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:01,200
Speaker 1: move towards a system which doesn't fault to recommending you

852
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:04,880
Speaker 1: the most addictive shit possible is certainly one way of

853
00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:07,120
Speaker 1: helping whether and on.

854
00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:10,360
Speaker 4: An individual level, we found a video of yours that

855
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:14,160
Speaker 4: we liked from a while ago where you talked about

856
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:17,800
Speaker 4: why debating doesn't work and changing minds doesn't work the

857
00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:18,840
Speaker 4: way that we think.

858
00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:21,920
Speaker 1: Oh god, wow, that's an old one.

859
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:23,560
Speaker 3: You should do more YouTube.

860
00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:29,200
Speaker 4: Anyway, if you encounter a young man or an old man,

861
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:34,920
Speaker 4: or anyone who's seems to be, you know, going down

862
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:36,880
Speaker 4: this path or dabbling, or like they're starting to get

863
00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:39,040
Speaker 4: exposed at this kind of stuff, maybe they're starting to isolate,

864
00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:41,680
Speaker 4: Like how would you respond as an individual to that person.

865
00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:46,279
Speaker 1: It's really hard when I say debating doesn't work. I'm

866
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:47,840
Speaker 1: trying to think back. I must have made this about

867
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:51,040
Speaker 1: ten years ago. When I say debating doesn't work, what

868
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:56,960
Speaker 1: I am talking about is that you can't just change

869
00:46:57,000 --> 00:47:00,759
Speaker 1: someone's mind with enough facts and evidence and logic in

870
00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:03,239
Speaker 1: order to get them out whatever belief they currently hold.

871
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:06,239
Speaker 1: It just doesn't work that way because the way that

872
00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:10,320
Speaker 1: we form our beliefs is social and emotional. It's not

873
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:12,880
Speaker 1: based on logic, no matter how much the kind of

874
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:16,279
Speaker 1: debate bros Might wish you to think of that. And

875
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:19,680
Speaker 1: so usually, as you guys know very well, what a

876
00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:23,800
Speaker 1: cult is doing, what an extreme belief is doing is

877
00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:27,800
Speaker 1: preying on a particular vulnerability that you have and filling

878
00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:31,440
Speaker 1: a need in your life. And so in order to

879
00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:38,239
Speaker 1: try to take someone out of the manisphere or an

880
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:42,959
Speaker 1: in cell space or I don't know, a neo Nazi group, unfortunately,

881
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:46,120
Speaker 1: if you're already in their life, need to stay to

882
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:49,839
Speaker 1: some degree present in their life. You can't completely cut

883
00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:53,680
Speaker 1: yourself off necessarily, and you have to be kind of

884
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:56,080
Speaker 1: an anchor to some degree. You have to be able

885
00:47:56,160 --> 00:47:58,600
Speaker 1: to say the thing that you're saying right now is wrong,

886
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:00,520
Speaker 1: and here is why I believe it to be wrong.

887
00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:02,960
Speaker 1: And often you have to appeal to the humanity of

888
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:05,800
Speaker 1: the people that they're undermining in order to make that argument.

889
00:48:06,239 --> 00:48:09,520
Speaker 1: Rather than trying to say something about why there's statistic

890
00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:12,920
Speaker 1: they've given you about women making up break allegations as false.

891
00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:16,640
Speaker 1: You have to appeal to the humanity of women and

892
00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:21,320
Speaker 1: of everyone around them, but you also have to not

893
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:23,920
Speaker 1: say I am cutting you off, I'm pushing out of

894
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:25,640
Speaker 1: my life now. This is not to say that all

895
00:48:25,719 --> 00:48:27,480
Speaker 1: people have a duty to do that for everyone all

896
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:30,279
Speaker 1: the time. But the way that you get someone out

897
00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:33,960
Speaker 1: of these spaces is to try to make it so

898
00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:38,680
Speaker 1: that they have other options. So the way you get

899
00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:42,440
Speaker 1: out of extreme groups is sometimes there's push factors, right,

900
00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:45,600
Speaker 1: the situation gets so bad within them that you're looking

901
00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:48,560
Speaker 1: for an alternative. But also there have to be poor factors,

902
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:51,120
Speaker 1: which are the things that say, look, there is a

903
00:48:51,239 --> 00:48:54,560
Speaker 1: life that looks better than this. There is an alternative.

904
00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:58,400
Speaker 1: It's possible for you to have community, to have hobbies

905
00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:01,560
Speaker 1: and a job and friendship and love outside of the

906
00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:03,320
Speaker 1: thing in which you found yourself.

907
00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:04,960
Speaker 3: Did you say pull factors.

908
00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:07,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, So push factors and pull factors.

909
00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:08,799
Speaker 3: Oh, I love that. Okay, I've never heard that before.

910
00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:11,200
Speaker 1: So push factors are the things that are pushing you away,

911
00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:14,320
Speaker 1: that are saying, like, what you are in now is untenable.

912
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:16,879
Speaker 1: You cannot stay in this thing or you're going to die.

913
00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:19,960
Speaker 1: And the pull factors are the things that say, look,

914
00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:23,480
Speaker 1: there's something else, you could do something else with your life,

915
00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:26,320
Speaker 1: and these are all the alternities for you. So you

916
00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:29,759
Speaker 1: can't necessarily create the push factors. If you are like

917
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:33,759
Speaker 1: a professional investigative journalist whose job is to dig up

918
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:36,359
Speaker 1: dirt and like you know, sow division within a far

919
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:39,759
Speaker 1: right group, maybe you can create some push factors, but

920
00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:43,839
Speaker 1: you can create pull factors and you can be there.

921
00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:50,160
Speaker 1: So my my personal background on kind of extreme beliefs

922
00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:52,680
Speaker 1: is not actually in sell space. It's actually in the

923
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:57,280
Speaker 1: religion space. My half of my family were all Jehovah's

924
00:49:57,320 --> 00:50:02,239
Speaker 1: witnesses at various points, and there are various arguments about

925
00:50:02,239 --> 00:50:04,640
Speaker 1: whether that would be considered a cult or not. But

926
00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:08,120
Speaker 1: what I do know is that you cannot convince someone

927
00:50:08,200 --> 00:50:12,560
Speaker 1: out of a religious commitment, but that you basically have

928
00:50:12,719 --> 00:50:14,960
Speaker 1: to wait for them to have their own crisis and

929
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:16,000
Speaker 1: then still be there.

930
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:18,239
Speaker 3: Yes, ah, we talk about this all the time.

931
00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:18,680
Speaker 6: Yep.

932
00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:20,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, So it's no different, right, it's no different.

933
00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:21,239
Speaker 3: Yeah.

934
00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:23,279
Speaker 2: Well, one of the things that I love that you said,

935
00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:26,320
Speaker 2: and I believe that same video was just the language

936
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:28,400
Speaker 2: that we use can be kind of a turn off

937
00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:32,319
Speaker 2: for somebody. So the word in cell like, do they

938
00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:36,480
Speaker 2: immediately recoil from that word if it's from somebody who's

939
00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:37,000
Speaker 2: trying to.

940
00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:40,680
Speaker 3: Like, does it feel like an attached Yeah, it's a.

941
00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:43,279
Speaker 1: Really hard one because it is a value laiden word.

942
00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:47,040
Speaker 1: But because it's become so mainstream, it started to mean

943
00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:51,160
Speaker 1: more than one thing. So an inceel can be someone

944
00:50:51,239 --> 00:50:54,520
Speaker 1: who is a committed member of a forum where people

945
00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:59,360
Speaker 1: talk about being involuntarily celiber. But they can also be

946
00:50:59,719 --> 00:51:01,840
Speaker 1: some who you're just calling that because you used to

947
00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:03,440
Speaker 1: call them a fedora or a neck bid, or a

948
00:51:03,560 --> 00:51:07,000
Speaker 1: virgin or a fucking loser, right, and calling someone an

949
00:51:07,040 --> 00:51:11,160
Speaker 1: insuet doesn't necessarily mean that much anymore. And you have

950
00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:13,520
Speaker 1: to think, does it help to call someone a for

951
00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:16,120
Speaker 1: doorra or a neck bid or a fucking loser? And

952
00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:20,080
Speaker 1: the answer is sometimes yes, because you have to show

953
00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:22,920
Speaker 1: them that the behavior which they're engaging in is not acceptable.

954
00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:26,680
Speaker 1: Sometimes no, because what you're trying to do is show

955
00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:29,080
Speaker 1: them that you are still going to be accepted by

956
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:32,719
Speaker 1: whatever community or group or society that they are trying

957
00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:36,160
Speaker 1: to cut themselves off from. So in the same way,

958
00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:39,040
Speaker 1: that you have to find boundaries with anyone. You have

959
00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:42,040
Speaker 1: to find boundaries with your language in how you talk

960
00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:45,520
Speaker 1: to people as well. And yeah, in the same way

961
00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:49,360
Speaker 1: that calling someone a Nazi if they don't self identify

962
00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:53,680
Speaker 1: as a Nazi, probably alienates them a bit because they're like, oh, dude,

963
00:51:53,719 --> 00:51:56,759
Speaker 1: you just call anyone a Nazi these days. Yeah, but

964
00:51:56,880 --> 00:51:59,040
Speaker 1: also you can call them a Nazi and they self

965
00:51:59,080 --> 00:52:01,439
Speaker 1: identify as a Nazi, they probably just go, yeah, yeah,

966
00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:03,840
Speaker 1: that's correct, I'm a white nationalist, right.

967
00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:04,319
Speaker 3: Yeah.

968
00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:11,600
Speaker 1: So look, alienating language is always going to alienate. It's

969
00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:15,480
Speaker 1: not always your job to be welcoming and inclusive all

970
00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:19,839
Speaker 1: the time because people who hold hateful beliefs can really

971
00:52:20,239 --> 00:52:23,279
Speaker 1: cause damage. But if you're trying to pull them out

972
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:26,440
Speaker 1: of something, yeah, it's probably not going to help your

973
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:28,279
Speaker 1: cause to make them think you're addict to that.

974
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:32,680
Speaker 4: Well, and even outside of just like calling someone something

975
00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:36,239
Speaker 4: that could be considered a slur or an insult, like

976
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:42,240
Speaker 4: we develop shorthand language in our cultures or in our subcultures,

977
00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:45,319
Speaker 4: there are terms that you know, people on the left

978
00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:48,520
Speaker 4: would use that people on the right would immediately shut

979
00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:51,400
Speaker 4: off toward that argument just because of the term and

980
00:52:51,560 --> 00:52:54,800
Speaker 4: vice versa. Language becomes so charged so quickly, and it

981
00:52:54,840 --> 00:52:58,399
Speaker 4: can be difficult to have those conversations without like it's

982
00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:00,760
Speaker 4: almost like a game of taboo. You have to figure

983
00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:02,600
Speaker 4: out how to talk about the thing without saying the words.

984
00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:05,560
Speaker 4: You just have to self edit and think about every

985
00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:07,560
Speaker 4: single word. Now, that's what I've realized.

986
00:53:08,120 --> 00:53:09,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, you have to be really really careful what the

987
00:53:09,719 --> 00:53:14,959
Speaker 1: language use. Do you guys know the term thought terminating cliches? Yeah, yeah,

988
00:53:15,480 --> 00:53:20,040
Speaker 1: it's kind of that, right, except it's external. So the

989
00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:23,360
Speaker 1: moment you hear someone use a particular word, you're able

990
00:53:23,440 --> 00:53:26,799
Speaker 1: to pigeonhole them in a certain category and say, Okay,

991
00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:29,480
Speaker 1: this person is coming from this perspective there, and that

992
00:53:29,600 --> 00:53:32,200
Speaker 1: is a perspective I disagree with or fine or have

993
00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:35,320
Speaker 1: historically had bad experiences with. So I don't need to

994
00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:38,719
Speaker 1: listen to that person, right, And that that's kind of

995
00:53:38,800 --> 00:53:42,600
Speaker 1: what's happening here. So if you are talking to an

996
00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:46,600
Speaker 1: in cell and you start talking about how look, it's

997
00:53:46,640 --> 00:53:49,320
Speaker 1: all okay, I'm sure women must like you. Really you

998
00:53:49,480 --> 00:53:51,879
Speaker 1: just need to like take a shower once in a while,

999
00:53:52,160 --> 00:53:55,279
Speaker 1: and like, have you thought about being nicer to women?

1000
00:53:55,719 --> 00:53:57,879
Speaker 1: Those are the sorts of things that they are going

1001
00:53:57,920 --> 00:54:02,400
Speaker 1: to find really alienating. Now obviously they should be nicer

1002
00:54:02,680 --> 00:54:05,000
Speaker 1: to women. So this is about the purpose of your

1003
00:54:05,040 --> 00:54:08,160
Speaker 1: conversation with them. This is about whether you're trying to

1004
00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:12,719
Speaker 1: build rapport as a way of hopefully helping them out

1005
00:54:12,719 --> 00:54:16,399
Speaker 1: at some point, because I think the truth is most

1006
00:54:16,520 --> 00:54:19,319
Speaker 1: people who find themselves in an in cell space will

1007
00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:24,720
Speaker 1: eventually not be in that space anymore. Some of them, sadly,

1008
00:54:25,160 --> 00:54:29,800
Speaker 1: will stay there forever and be increasingly embittered, and particularly

1009
00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:33,719
Speaker 1: if their identity fuses with being in cell, if they're

1010
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:36,440
Speaker 1: the moderator of the administrator of the forum, they're probably

1011
00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:38,879
Speaker 1: not going to leave any time to see but most

1012
00:54:38,960 --> 00:54:42,879
Speaker 1: of them will not be in cells forever because while

1013
00:54:42,920 --> 00:54:44,719
Speaker 1: it will be a facet of their identity for a while,

1014
00:54:45,040 --> 00:54:50,520
Speaker 1: eventually they will find someone who might appreciate them, or

1015
00:54:50,960 --> 00:54:53,640
Speaker 1: they will grow up. Frankly, like a lot of them

1016
00:54:53,680 --> 00:54:55,719
Speaker 1: are just kids and they're just having a bit of

1017
00:54:55,760 --> 00:54:57,359
Speaker 1: a phase and they're acting out a bit, and they

1018
00:54:57,400 --> 00:55:00,399
Speaker 1: will grow out of the extreme beliefs and they will

1019
00:55:00,480 --> 00:55:03,400
Speaker 1: start to have some relationships with people. That might because

1020
00:55:03,400 --> 00:55:06,320
Speaker 1: they go off for university, or it might be because

1021
00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:09,160
Speaker 1: they join some kind of social group, or it might

1022
00:55:09,239 --> 00:55:13,120
Speaker 1: just be luck right. The problem I have is that

1023
00:55:13,440 --> 00:55:16,680
Speaker 1: those people are not completely I don't want to use

1024
00:55:16,680 --> 00:55:20,759
Speaker 1: the word deprogrammed, because that's obviously very freighted, but they

1025
00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:23,680
Speaker 1: haven't given up the beliefs that led them down that

1026
00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:25,960
Speaker 1: way in the first place. So the worry I have

1027
00:55:26,040 --> 00:55:29,279
Speaker 1: always had about themselves is not just that they are

1028
00:55:29,600 --> 00:55:33,360
Speaker 1: a horrible group that hates themselves and hates other people.

1029
00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:37,000
Speaker 1: It's that after you get out, you still hold some

1030
00:55:37,160 --> 00:55:40,239
Speaker 1: of the residual beliefs about the world and about women,

1031
00:55:40,680 --> 00:55:42,880
Speaker 1: and that will likely influence the way in which you

1032
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:46,120
Speaker 1: interact with those people. I don't think that you can

1033
00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:49,440
Speaker 1: come out of being an in cell and have a healthy,

1034
00:55:49,480 --> 00:55:52,799
Speaker 1: functioning relationship in which you respect your partner. And that's

1035
00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:55,680
Speaker 1: why I think that there is a threat to women

1036
00:55:55,760 --> 00:55:59,400
Speaker 1: and girls that is posed by ex in cells, perhaps

1037
00:55:59,480 --> 00:56:01,040
Speaker 1: even more than there is in celts, because a lot

1038
00:56:01,080 --> 00:56:03,120
Speaker 1: of insults just stay in their room and post online

1039
00:56:03,120 --> 00:56:05,680
Speaker 1: all the time, right, And that obviously can have its

1040
00:56:05,719 --> 00:56:09,440
Speaker 1: own harms, like harassing women Online's still harassing women, but

1041
00:56:09,520 --> 00:56:12,759
Speaker 1: they're often just talking to themselves, and the moment you

1042
00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:14,759
Speaker 1: go out into the world and you start having relationships,

1043
00:56:14,800 --> 00:56:17,439
Speaker 1: that's the moment you can actually hurt someone.

1044
00:56:18,040 --> 00:56:19,360
Speaker 3: I've not thought about that.

1045
00:56:19,719 --> 00:56:24,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, going back to the poll factor's question, what are

1046
00:56:24,800 --> 00:56:26,879
Speaker 4: some poll factors that would work?

1047
00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:29,000
Speaker 3: Like how how would you offer that to someone?

1048
00:56:30,160 --> 00:56:31,520
Speaker 1: How do you offer pull factors?

1049
00:56:31,880 --> 00:56:35,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, hey man, there's a basketball game. Let's go to

1050
00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:39,040
Speaker 4: a movie one day with some that yeahs on movie.

1051
00:56:39,760 --> 00:56:41,680
Speaker 1: What you would do, lonlier is you'd put on your

1052
00:56:41,960 --> 00:56:46,839
Speaker 1: your best basketball hat, baseball hat, and and like dress

1053
00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:51,440
Speaker 1: up as a as a little boy and say, hey, buddy,

1054
00:56:52,600 --> 00:56:56,640
Speaker 1: go to the basketball game. That's what you do. That

1055
00:56:56,880 --> 00:56:59,279
Speaker 1: is basically it. Right, So you guys are right. You

1056
00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:03,839
Speaker 1: can try to make them feel included, and you can

1057
00:57:03,960 --> 00:57:08,840
Speaker 1: try to consistently not pressure people, but at least provide

1058
00:57:08,880 --> 00:57:12,799
Speaker 1: them with the possibility of something else. Right, Oh, there's

1059
00:57:12,840 --> 00:57:14,520
Speaker 1: this guy in our group. He's kind of a weirdo,

1060
00:57:14,800 --> 00:57:16,880
Speaker 1: but like, let's still invite him to the movie night. Like,

1061
00:57:17,000 --> 00:57:19,840
Speaker 1: let's keep him in the book club. Like, I don't

1062
00:57:19,840 --> 00:57:21,360
Speaker 1: know why movie night in book club are the things

1063
00:57:21,400 --> 00:57:27,320
Speaker 1: I go to very much in my mid thirties. Yeah,

1064
00:57:27,560 --> 00:57:31,800
Speaker 1: that's kind of part of it. And it's just providing

1065
00:57:31,920 --> 00:57:35,840
Speaker 1: them with the knowledge and the idea there is something

1066
00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:39,320
Speaker 1: else than what they have right now, right, And most

1067
00:57:39,360 --> 00:57:42,080
Speaker 1: of that is about the human need for company and

1068
00:57:42,200 --> 00:57:47,240
Speaker 1: community and love and all the fluffy things, yeah, which

1069
00:57:47,320 --> 00:57:50,760
Speaker 1: you have told me nothing in these spaces, right that

1070
00:57:51,320 --> 00:57:54,160
Speaker 1: the manusphere wants to grind down the idea that any

1071
00:57:54,200 --> 00:57:57,200
Speaker 1: of that means anything. It's all about whether you're making

1072
00:57:57,360 --> 00:58:01,640
Speaker 1: enough paper, and you're hitting enough like personal records in

1073
00:58:01,720 --> 00:58:05,480
Speaker 1: the gym, and whether you're high enough statis, so you've

1074
00:58:05,480 --> 00:58:09,000
Speaker 1: got enough cars. All those things are completely hollow and empty.

1075
00:58:09,560 --> 00:58:11,439
Speaker 1: They're kind of like the sorts of things that someone

1076
00:58:11,560 --> 00:58:13,280
Speaker 1: might like if they like to live in Dubai.

1077
00:58:13,840 --> 00:58:16,320
Speaker 3: You know. It's like a high, a temporary high that

1078
00:58:16,440 --> 00:58:18,840
Speaker 3: doesn't actually shit. Like.

1079
00:58:18,920 --> 00:58:21,120
Speaker 4: I also think that's a product of the culture we

1080
00:58:21,200 --> 00:58:23,760
Speaker 4: live in, like America at least, is a very individualistic

1081
00:58:23,840 --> 00:58:26,680
Speaker 4: society and very fixated on this idea that if you

1082
00:58:26,800 --> 00:58:29,240
Speaker 4: achieve enough then you will finally reach happiness, which of

1083
00:58:29,280 --> 00:58:30,479
Speaker 4: course we know not to be true.

1084
00:58:32,080 --> 00:58:35,720
Speaker 1: The thing that you were saying, Megan is also true.

1085
00:58:35,880 --> 00:58:39,320
Speaker 1: It is about appealing to a teenage sense of what

1086
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:42,800
Speaker 1: the world is, the idea that the things that are

1087
00:58:42,840 --> 00:58:47,520
Speaker 1: most important are like material possessions like fast cars and

1088
00:58:48,440 --> 00:58:53,120
Speaker 1: dominating your friends and opponents like those are very twelve

1089
00:58:53,240 --> 00:58:56,200
Speaker 1: year old approaches to the world. True, and it is

1090
00:58:56,440 --> 00:59:00,400
Speaker 1: very clear from looking at someone like Andrew Tate actually

1091
00:59:00,520 --> 00:59:02,919
Speaker 1: kind of is appealing to twelve year old boys. Yes,

1092
00:59:03,200 --> 00:59:07,640
Speaker 1: because most men in their twenties, thirties, forties look at

1093
00:59:07,680 --> 00:59:11,400
Speaker 1: that guy and think, what a fucking embarrassment. You know,

1094
00:59:11,480 --> 00:59:13,880
Speaker 1: you look at this guy fronting up as though he's

1095
00:59:14,200 --> 00:59:18,800
Speaker 1: you know, like the kingshit of Fuck Mountain, and you

1096
00:59:18,920 --> 00:59:22,120
Speaker 1: find that embarrassing, whereas a twelve year old does not.

1097
00:59:22,920 --> 00:59:25,560
Speaker 1: And that's what's so insidious about this. He is aiming

1098
00:59:25,760 --> 00:59:29,560
Speaker 1: to draw in kids, yes, because they are impressionable, and

1099
00:59:29,680 --> 00:59:30,880
Speaker 1: because they will listen to you.

1100
00:59:31,320 --> 00:59:34,000
Speaker 3: Yes, and a few adults get thrown in along the way.

1101
00:59:34,080 --> 00:59:36,080
Speaker 4: I was going to ask, is that I mean, I

1102
00:59:36,160 --> 00:59:39,360
Speaker 4: guess maybe just because I'm an adult. The exposure that

1103
00:59:39,440 --> 00:59:41,960
Speaker 4: I have to people who are fans of people like

1104
00:59:42,080 --> 00:59:46,360
Speaker 4: Andrew Tait are also adults. And you know, the misogynistic

1105
00:59:46,440 --> 00:59:50,560
Speaker 4: comments on my Instagram that I've been posting are grown

1106
00:59:50,600 --> 00:59:51,000
Speaker 4: ass men.

1107
00:59:51,160 --> 00:59:51,320
Speaker 2: You know.

1108
00:59:51,960 --> 00:59:54,520
Speaker 4: I'll go on a random data and someone will say

1109
00:59:54,560 --> 00:59:56,200
Speaker 4: something and I'll be like, oh, you're oh you love

1110
00:59:56,280 --> 00:59:57,040
Speaker 4: Jordan Peterson.

1111
00:59:57,120 --> 00:59:59,280
Speaker 1: Oh that's their monk mode.

1112
01:00:01,120 --> 01:00:04,640
Speaker 4: I don't think that man is an insult, but but

1113
01:00:04,760 --> 01:00:07,160
Speaker 4: I have I did sleep with someone in the morning.

1114
01:00:07,240 --> 01:00:09,360
Speaker 4: I saw the other side of his door that had

1115
01:00:09,400 --> 01:00:11,840
Speaker 4: a twelve Rules for Life poster on it, which was

1116
01:00:12,000 --> 01:00:12,520
Speaker 4: quite a shock.

1117
01:00:12,680 --> 01:00:14,560
Speaker 3: Who writes that? Jordan Peterson?

1118
01:00:15,440 --> 01:00:15,680
Speaker 2: God?

1119
01:00:16,200 --> 01:00:19,000
Speaker 4: And anyway, like, you know, like, I'm maybe it's just

1120
01:00:19,080 --> 01:00:21,200
Speaker 4: a matter of exposure because of my age.

1121
01:00:21,600 --> 01:00:28,400
Speaker 3: Maybe love insults. Maybe, But I like, is there data

1122
01:00:28,720 --> 01:00:30,880
Speaker 3: on the fan bases of these people?

1123
01:00:32,160 --> 01:00:35,520
Speaker 1: Looka it might also because you live in la you

1124
01:00:35,960 --> 01:00:37,640
Speaker 1: have really questionable.

1125
01:00:37,240 --> 01:00:41,280
Speaker 4: Taste in the men are great. This is a very

1126
01:00:41,440 --> 01:00:44,520
Speaker 4: very rare occurrence, just like once a free four years.

1127
01:00:50,000 --> 01:00:52,920
Speaker 1: Is sorry, I forgot the question because I was determined

1128
01:00:52,920 --> 01:00:53,920
Speaker 1: to mildly mock you.

1129
01:00:55,560 --> 01:00:57,880
Speaker 3: Data on age range.

1130
01:00:58,120 --> 01:01:02,919
Speaker 1: Oh God, Yeah, Okay, so I'm not entirely certain about age.

1131
01:01:03,000 --> 01:01:05,640
Speaker 1: What I will say is that typically more conservative attitudes

1132
01:01:05,640 --> 01:01:09,960
Speaker 1: towards gender are something which are held by older men,

1133
01:01:11,040 --> 01:01:13,720
Speaker 1: though of course, there is increasingly data coming out that

1134
01:01:13,880 --> 01:01:18,520
Speaker 1: shows a worrying divergence in political beliefs between young men

1135
01:01:18,600 --> 01:01:22,280
Speaker 1: and young women. The weird one for that is South Korea,

1136
01:01:22,320 --> 01:01:25,439
Speaker 1: where it's really extreme, but also in the US as well,

1137
01:01:25,880 --> 01:01:29,880
Speaker 1: where young women are increasing left wing, young men are

1138
01:01:29,960 --> 01:01:34,600
Speaker 1: increasingly kind of center right, and that is creating friction

1139
01:01:35,120 --> 01:01:38,720
Speaker 1: between people with different genders. So how would I puts

1140
01:01:39,280 --> 01:01:42,440
Speaker 1: It's not so much that it is more likely that

1141
01:01:42,560 --> 01:01:47,160
Speaker 1: you hold misogynistic beliefs you for your particular age, because statistically,

1142
01:01:47,200 --> 01:01:48,880
Speaker 1: I think you're more likely to hold them if you

1143
01:01:48,960 --> 01:01:52,600
Speaker 1: are older, because older folks tend to hold traditional gender

1144
01:01:52,680 --> 01:01:54,800
Speaker 1: views and those are misogynistic.

1145
01:01:55,400 --> 01:01:57,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, but my grandpa's not getting on Reddit, right.

1146
01:01:58,280 --> 01:02:02,000
Speaker 1: Because exactly so if you're if you are older and

1147
01:02:02,040 --> 01:02:04,200
Speaker 1: hold those beliefs, you'll get expressed in a different.

1148
01:02:03,960 --> 01:02:11,120
Speaker 3: Way, right, right, right, going to yeah, exactly, yeah, precisely.

1149
01:02:12,160 --> 01:02:16,600
Speaker 1: So it could just be that Lola is very unlucky

1150
01:02:18,200 --> 01:02:20,480
Speaker 1: and is meeting a bunch of guys who really like

1151
01:02:20,600 --> 01:02:25,280
Speaker 1: Jordan Peterson. Don't be fair, that's a lot.

1152
01:02:26,240 --> 01:02:28,920
Speaker 4: I think it's actually one guy, this recent guy. I'm

1153
01:02:28,920 --> 01:02:32,320
Speaker 4: telling you, he's not He's normal. He's just fascinated by Ripped.

1154
01:02:32,160 --> 01:02:35,280
Speaker 1: That guy way we have really got in on him.

1155
01:02:35,880 --> 01:02:38,080
Speaker 1: I know. I feel like, but.

1156
01:02:39,680 --> 01:02:42,240
Speaker 3: I think you're fine. I think it's fine. You are

1157
01:02:42,280 --> 01:02:43,920
Speaker 3: allegedly not an insult.

1158
01:02:45,000 --> 01:02:47,840
Speaker 4: But again, like, yeah, like, the most hateful comments I

1159
01:02:47,960 --> 01:02:50,880
Speaker 4: received are not by they seem to be by men

1160
01:02:50,960 --> 01:02:52,280
Speaker 4: in their twenties, thirties, forties.

1161
01:02:52,760 --> 01:02:56,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes complete sense. And I would note that

1162
01:02:56,360 --> 01:03:00,360
Speaker 1: misogyny can be written out in many forms and everyone

1163
01:03:00,400 --> 01:03:03,960
Speaker 1: has access to Instagram, right, So finding your stuff and

1164
01:03:04,080 --> 01:03:09,240
Speaker 1: posting hateful shit underneath it doesn't indicate the information environment

1165
01:03:09,320 --> 01:03:12,480
Speaker 1: that person has been taught up in, right. They could

1166
01:03:12,480 --> 01:03:14,160
Speaker 1: be on Reddit, they could be on four cham, they

1167
01:03:14,200 --> 01:03:19,160
Speaker 1: could be on Facebook, they could be well the only

1168
01:03:19,440 --> 01:03:22,320
Speaker 1: the only filter is literally have they come to your

1169
01:03:22,400 --> 01:03:25,880
Speaker 1: Instagram feed and that's it. Yeah, they could be from anywhere.

1170
01:03:26,000 --> 01:03:29,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, totally, Misogyny becomes in many forms, and sure it has.

1171
01:03:30,320 --> 01:03:30,920
Speaker 1: She's endemic.

1172
01:03:32,200 --> 01:03:35,280
Speaker 2: I'm just wondering if anybody has ever like becomes such

1173
01:03:35,360 --> 01:03:39,080
Speaker 2: a close knit community on these insul forums that they

1174
01:03:39,240 --> 01:03:40,320
Speaker 2: become not in cells.

1175
01:03:40,680 --> 01:03:43,040
Speaker 4: They're like, actually, community is good and we should embrace

1176
01:03:43,080 --> 01:03:44,240
Speaker 4: healthy values.

1177
01:03:44,320 --> 01:03:45,760
Speaker 3: I kind of want to write a movie about it.

1178
01:03:46,680 --> 01:03:49,640
Speaker 1: I think that's a beautiful idea for a movie script. Yeah,

1179
01:03:49,720 --> 01:03:56,840
Speaker 1: and I don't think it has ever happened. They have

1180
01:03:56,920 --> 01:03:59,160
Speaker 1: come together. It's like a kind of like friends to

1181
01:03:59,520 --> 01:04:02,400
Speaker 1: enemies to friends the thing, Yeah, or like they come

1182
01:04:02,440 --> 01:04:04,919
Speaker 1: together through the power of love exactly.

1183
01:04:04,840 --> 01:04:07,120
Speaker 3: It's a Christmas movie. It's a Christmas movie. I don't

1184
01:04:07,160 --> 01:04:07,440
Speaker 3: like it.

1185
01:04:07,720 --> 01:04:10,960
Speaker 1: I like it. Loving the time of insuldom, I like it.

1186
01:04:13,480 --> 01:04:15,720
Speaker 4: Do you have any final thoughts or messages that you

1187
01:04:15,720 --> 01:04:17,160
Speaker 4: would like the people to receive?

1188
01:04:18,440 --> 01:04:23,480
Speaker 1: We have messages for the people. Hug your friends, love

1189
01:04:23,520 --> 01:04:28,000
Speaker 1: your loved ones. No, but genuinely, I do think part

1190
01:04:28,040 --> 01:04:31,760
Speaker 1: of it is that is I think that this is

1191
01:04:31,800 --> 01:04:33,480
Speaker 1: not me doing a wishy was she like love across

1192
01:04:33,600 --> 01:04:36,520
Speaker 1: the divide shit? Because frankly, right now, the world is

1193
01:04:36,600 --> 01:04:38,960
Speaker 1: awful and there are a whole lot of people who

1194
01:04:39,000 --> 01:04:43,200
Speaker 1: are prove themselves very incapable of redemption. But if there

1195
01:04:43,280 --> 01:04:47,680
Speaker 1: is someone in your life who is going through some

1196
01:04:47,880 --> 01:04:50,280
Speaker 1: rough shit and you find that they are moving in

1197
01:04:50,400 --> 01:04:54,000
Speaker 1: a hateful direction, it can be very very tempting to

1198
01:04:54,160 --> 01:04:56,800
Speaker 1: completely cut them off, and I would not blame you

1199
01:04:56,920 --> 01:05:01,280
Speaker 1: if you did. But keeping a small a window open

1200
01:05:02,360 --> 01:05:06,200
Speaker 1: may mean the difference between that person having nowhere to

1201
01:05:06,280 --> 01:05:10,400
Speaker 1: go and having somewhere potentially to go at the point

1202
01:05:10,480 --> 01:05:14,440
Speaker 1: where everything blows up. I think that's true of all

1203
01:05:14,520 --> 01:05:16,600
Speaker 1: of the cults you guys have talked about. I think

1204
01:05:16,640 --> 01:05:21,560
Speaker 1: that's true of basically any extreme movement or community that

1205
01:05:22,280 --> 01:05:26,320
Speaker 1: it's very easy to completely alienate someone when they've become

1206
01:05:26,720 --> 01:05:31,760
Speaker 1: such an asshole. But I think it's important to recognize

1207
01:05:31,800 --> 01:05:34,480
Speaker 1: that they may need somewhere to go eventually, and if

1208
01:05:34,520 --> 01:05:39,720
Speaker 1: you love them, then maybe think about keeping them at

1209
01:05:39,800 --> 01:05:43,080
Speaker 1: least partly at arm's length in your life.

1210
01:05:43,240 --> 01:05:45,000
Speaker 3: That's going to be a line on the Christmas movie.

1211
01:05:48,040 --> 01:05:50,640
Speaker 4: We hear it over and over again, and I'm happy

1212
01:05:50,720 --> 01:05:53,000
Speaker 4: to hear you reiterate it because I think it does

1213
01:05:53,080 --> 01:05:56,520
Speaker 4: seem to really remain true throughout every group and every

1214
01:05:56,680 --> 01:05:58,240
Speaker 4: type of weird fucking belief.

1215
01:05:59,440 --> 01:05:59,920
Speaker 3: It really does.

1216
01:06:00,320 --> 01:06:03,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I'm sorry to beak cliche, but I'm happy

1217
01:06:03,520 --> 01:06:05,280
Speaker 1: to be part of a chorus. I guess. No.

1218
01:06:05,440 --> 01:06:06,800
Speaker 4: I mean it's nice to hear it pertaining to this

1219
01:06:06,840 --> 01:06:09,880
Speaker 4: particular subculture as well, because it is such a scary

1220
01:06:10,160 --> 01:06:14,560
Speaker 4: and you know, seemingly prevalent and growing subculture.

1221
01:06:14,640 --> 01:06:16,440
Speaker 2: And I guess it's a subculture that we're going to

1222
01:06:16,520 --> 01:06:18,560
Speaker 2: need men to really step up and do some of

1223
01:06:18,600 --> 01:06:19,400
Speaker 2: the dirty work.

1224
01:06:19,800 --> 01:06:22,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is what kind of sucks is. I think

1225
01:06:22,400 --> 01:06:25,680
Speaker 1: a lot of the work on this, at least the

1226
01:06:25,840 --> 01:06:29,040
Speaker 1: early really good work was done by women, and I

1227
01:06:29,120 --> 01:06:33,040
Speaker 1: think it is fantastic, and I recognize that women have

1228
01:06:33,160 --> 01:06:36,560
Speaker 1: a lot to contribute to this. Sorry, this sounds really

1229
01:06:36,640 --> 01:06:39,800
Speaker 1: weird like, but we have a unique contribution to make. However,

1230
01:06:40,360 --> 01:06:42,720
Speaker 1: what I was going to say is a it shouldn't

1231
01:06:42,720 --> 01:06:46,280
Speaker 1: all be on women to solve misogyny. Obviously, be a

1232
01:06:46,360 --> 01:06:47,840
Speaker 1: lot of these guys are not going to listen to

1233
01:06:47,920 --> 01:06:51,160
Speaker 1: women exactly, And I think that there is a degree

1234
01:06:51,240 --> 01:06:52,800
Speaker 1: to which men will have to step up, as you

1235
01:06:52,920 --> 01:06:57,880
Speaker 1: say again, to sort this shit out. And I think

1236
01:06:58,040 --> 01:07:00,800
Speaker 1: that it's really it's going to have to be an

1237
01:07:00,880 --> 01:07:04,320
Speaker 1: all genders kind of vibe. But yes, men have a

1238
01:07:04,360 --> 01:07:08,440
Speaker 1: responsibility in this direction as well, and some of them

1239
01:07:08,440 --> 01:07:12,520
Speaker 1: are doing really, really good work. And actually, the Credent

1240
01:07:12,600 --> 01:07:14,960
Speaker 1: Coalition that I have been part of with the November

1241
01:07:15,040 --> 01:07:19,920
Speaker 1: guys is a lot of them are guys showing what

1242
01:07:20,720 --> 01:07:24,160
Speaker 1: good male role models can look like and are trying

1243
01:07:24,200 --> 01:07:26,640
Speaker 1: to do the work to provide the community and provide

1244
01:07:26,680 --> 01:07:31,480
Speaker 1: the spaces that allow boys to find healthy, productive outlets

1245
01:07:31,760 --> 01:07:33,280
Speaker 1: for hard.

1246
01:07:33,120 --> 01:07:35,000
Speaker 3: Feelings, baseball and movies.

1247
01:07:35,080 --> 01:07:37,200
Speaker 4: Here's the point at which I proposed to you to

1248
01:07:37,480 --> 01:07:38,400
Speaker 4: keep doing your YouTube.

1249
01:07:38,880 --> 01:07:43,560
Speaker 1: Okay, your proposal is noted. I have not done a

1250
01:07:43,600 --> 01:07:47,360
Speaker 1: YouTube in about six years, that is correct.

1251
01:07:47,440 --> 01:07:48,440
Speaker 3: I did note that.

1252
01:07:48,640 --> 01:07:53,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, I will consider it again. I appreciate the vote

1253
01:07:53,200 --> 01:07:53,720
Speaker 1: of confidence.

1254
01:07:54,440 --> 01:07:57,760
Speaker 4: And where do people find your work or the organization

1255
01:07:57,840 --> 01:07:59,760
Speaker 4: you work for, whatever you'd like to share these days.

1256
01:07:59,640 --> 01:08:04,640
Speaker 1: I want I think I'm at Tim Squirrel, but without

1257
01:08:04,840 --> 01:08:08,360
Speaker 1: any vowels, I think is where I'm at these days. Okay,

1258
01:08:09,200 --> 01:08:11,280
Speaker 1: but I used to be on Twitter, I'm not anymore.

1259
01:08:12,520 --> 01:08:14,880
Speaker 1: If you look me up on Google, you will probably

1260
01:08:14,920 --> 01:08:16,720
Speaker 1: find some way of contacting me in the way that

1261
01:08:16,840 --> 01:08:19,439
Speaker 1: Lola did. Actually, I didn't know why email was that

1262
01:08:19,520 --> 01:08:20,160
Speaker 1: easy to find.

1263
01:08:20,840 --> 01:08:27,479
Speaker 3: Oh, I remember if you look hard enough. Amazing. Thank

1264
01:08:27,520 --> 01:08:30,200
Speaker 3: you so much, Tom, This is a really cool conversation.

1265
01:08:30,479 --> 01:08:32,240
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me. This has been really,

1266
01:08:32,280 --> 01:08:32,679
Speaker 1: really fun.

1267
01:08:34,000 --> 01:08:38,880
Speaker 4: Thank you to Tim Squirrel for coming on Megan. Of

1268
01:08:38,960 --> 01:08:41,240
Speaker 4: course I have to ask you if you think that

1269
01:08:41,439 --> 01:08:43,320
Speaker 4: you would join the Manisphere.

1270
01:08:43,960 --> 01:08:44,160
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1271
01:08:44,160 --> 01:08:47,880
Speaker 2: I think if I was a man who was down

1272
01:08:47,960 --> 01:08:50,080
Speaker 2: on my luck and super lonely, I would be very

1273
01:08:50,120 --> 01:08:52,439
Speaker 2: susceptible to a group like that.

1274
01:08:53,040 --> 01:08:55,320
Speaker 4: The reason I asked him if he would ever join

1275
01:08:55,479 --> 01:08:58,559
Speaker 4: was because I've talked to a good amount of guys

1276
01:08:58,720 --> 01:09:01,360
Speaker 4: who've been like, Yeah, if I had stayed on the

1277
01:09:01,479 --> 01:09:03,400
Speaker 4: YouTube path that I was on when I was younger,

1278
01:09:03,840 --> 01:09:06,280
Speaker 4: I totally could have ended up on that road, Like

1279
01:09:06,439 --> 01:09:10,919
Speaker 4: the resentment was there, the loneliness was there, the isolation,

1280
01:09:11,160 --> 01:09:15,479
Speaker 4: you know. So I think it can happen to anyone

1281
01:09:15,600 --> 01:09:16,760
Speaker 4: who's Yeah, yeah, I.

1282
01:09:16,800 --> 01:09:20,400
Speaker 2: Think it would be a really nice little coat hanger

1283
01:09:20,680 --> 01:09:24,280
Speaker 2: to hang my resentments and problems on and just be

1284
01:09:24,439 --> 01:09:25,760
Speaker 2: like it's them.

1285
01:09:26,479 --> 01:09:27,639
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.

1286
01:09:27,760 --> 01:09:31,000
Speaker 4: And as an update, I did speak with my date

1287
01:09:31,400 --> 01:09:34,080
Speaker 4: about him using the term, and we joked about it

1288
01:09:34,160 --> 01:09:36,240
Speaker 4: and I told him we talked about it on this podcast,

1289
01:09:36,280 --> 01:09:37,120
Speaker 4: and I thought it was funny.

1290
01:09:37,520 --> 01:09:42,320
Speaker 3: He is not an insul cool. I know everyone was

1291
01:09:42,760 --> 01:09:45,360
Speaker 3: burning to know ledge of my seat. No, that's good

1292
01:09:45,400 --> 01:09:47,800
Speaker 3: to know. That's good to know. The guy with the

1293
01:09:47,800 --> 01:09:49,760
Speaker 3: poster on the back of the door still might be that.

1294
01:09:50,800 --> 01:09:53,360
Speaker 4: He's actually a nice guy. He's just he's just a

1295
01:09:53,400 --> 01:09:56,120
Speaker 4: little misled. He's a very nice man. Oh my god,

1296
01:09:56,240 --> 01:09:58,840
Speaker 4: he's my friend and sol apologist over here. I'm just

1297
01:09:58,880 --> 01:10:01,759
Speaker 4: kidding it, Okay, So yeah, I would be an unsolved probably,

1298
01:10:01,800 --> 01:10:02,160
Speaker 4: I don't know.

1299
01:10:02,400 --> 01:10:04,320
Speaker 3: Maybe, I mean i'd probably grow out of it, but.

1300
01:10:04,800 --> 01:10:07,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, oh me at sixteen if I found

1301
01:10:07,240 --> 01:10:10,040
Speaker 4: likely like that for girls total in selling, Yeah, yeah.

1302
01:10:10,439 --> 01:10:12,680
Speaker 4: The guy at the record store down the street did

1303
01:10:12,720 --> 01:10:14,400
Speaker 4: not want to date me and I was pissed about

1304
01:10:14,400 --> 01:10:15,080
Speaker 4: it totally.

1305
01:10:15,280 --> 01:10:17,679
Speaker 3: Yeah. All right, well, thanks for listening y'all.

1306
01:10:18,080 --> 01:10:21,120
Speaker 2: Come back next week and as always, remember to follow

1307
01:10:21,240 --> 01:10:23,360
Speaker 2: your gut, watch out for radi flat.

1308
01:10:23,800 --> 01:10:26,479
Speaker 3: And never ever trust me by.

1309
01:10:28,560 --> 01:10:31,920
Speaker 4: This has been an exactly right production hosted by me Lola.

1310
01:10:31,680 --> 01:10:35,519
Speaker 3: Blanc and Me Megan Elizabeth. Our senior producer is Gee Holly.

1311
01:10:35,840 --> 01:10:37,639
Speaker 3: This episode was mixed by John Bradley.

1312
01:10:37,800 --> 01:10:41,080
Speaker 2: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain, and our guest booker

1313
01:10:41,240 --> 01:10:42,280
Speaker 2: is Patrick Kottner.

1314
01:10:42,600 --> 01:10:44,920
Speaker 3: Our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

1315
01:10:45,240 --> 01:10:49,280
Speaker 2: Trust Me as executive produced by Karen Kilgareth Georgia Hartstark

1316
01:10:49,320 --> 01:10:50,280
Speaker 2: and Danielle Kramer.

1317
01:10:50,520 --> 01:10:52,759
Speaker 4: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me podcast

1318
01:10:52,960 --> 01:10:55,040
Speaker 4: or on TikTok at trust Me coult podcast.

1319
01:10:55,439 --> 01:10:58,480
Speaker 2: Got your own story about cults, extreme belief, our manipulation,

1320
01:10:58,880 --> 01:11:01,680
Speaker 2: Shoot us an email at trust mepod at gmail dot com.

1321
01:11:01,920 --> 01:11:04,800
Speaker 4: Listen to trust Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1322
01:11:04,960 --> 01:11:06,480
Speaker 4: or wherever you get your podcasts.