1 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:07,960 Speaker 1: This is Bloombird Law with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio. 2 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:11,760 Speaker 1: Because I see half the companies in the state, I 3 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,920 Speaker 1: know where this market is going. I believe better than 4 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 1: one of the top time people who are seen in 5 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 1: the inside of every single crypto company. Kyle Roach was 6 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 1: a fast rising star in the niche field of cryptocurrency law, 7 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:31,840 Speaker 1: and in trying to woo potential investors, Roch bragged about 8 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:35,280 Speaker 1: his bold litigation strategy and the case that put him 9 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:37,959 Speaker 1: in his fledgling law firm on the map, a one 10 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 1: million dollar judgment against a self proclaimed bitcoin inventor hundremillion dollars. 11 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 1: So I now take a hundred million dollars and I 12 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 1: go to the court and I say, hey, Court, I 13 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:50,839 Speaker 1: got a hundred billion dollars for these hundians hunt there, 14 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 1: give me give me thirty millions, and then I will administer. 15 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: The problem was that Roche didn't know he was secretly 16 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 1: being recorded, and when the videos of some of his 17 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:11,959 Speaker 1: other boats were anonymously posted online, his fall was spectacularly swift. 18 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:20,160 Speaker 1: I deal with making sure that the SEC has the 19 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 1: SEC n C SEC have other magnets to go out there. 20 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 1: Joining me is Bloomberg Law reporter Justin Wise. Justin Roche 21 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 1: was barely five years out of law school when all 22 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:35,679 Speaker 1: this happened. How did he rise so fast as a lawyer. 23 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:39,319 Speaker 1: So as cryptocurrency starts to kind of take off and 24 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:42,560 Speaker 1: a lot of companies start to develop and mature, the 25 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 1: same thing happens with the legal market. More lawyers are 26 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 1: involved in it, there are more disputes in the courts 27 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 1: taking place, and a lot of novel legal theories being tested. 28 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 1: And Kyle Roche was one of those people. He founded 29 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 1: a law firm in twenty nineteen with a couple other 30 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 1: folks that wanted to really specialize in cryptocurrency law and 31 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 1: not just advising companies, but also having a class action 32 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 1: practice that would take on those companies that were allegedly 33 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:14,240 Speaker 1: perhaps breaking the law or violating security laws. And they 34 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:17,400 Speaker 1: had some big cases that they were taking on. So, 35 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:20,360 Speaker 1: as you mentioned, he founded his firm in twenty nineteen, 36 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 1: and by this year it was really thriving in a 37 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:26,120 Speaker 1: lot of respects. They were working on a lot of 38 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 1: different cases, some of which had been geared up for 39 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:32,639 Speaker 1: trials in the coming years. And you know, he was 40 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 1: making a name for him in his firm, So tell 41 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 1: us about the case that a little about the case 42 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 1: that put them on the map. That litigation involved a 43 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:44,840 Speaker 1: case against Craig Right. They represented the state of Craig 44 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:47,800 Speaker 1: Rights alleged former business partner, and Craig Right is a 45 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 1: man who's actually claimed to be the person who developed 46 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:53,639 Speaker 1: big coin. So the case that they ended up taking 47 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:57,240 Speaker 1: up was claiming that Craig Right's former business partner and 48 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:00,120 Speaker 1: the estate was who they were representing was ent tho 49 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:02,600 Speaker 1: to half a cash of bitcoin that they mind together 50 00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 1: in assets early years. And this bitcoin that they mind 51 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 1: together in these early years now worth millions billions actually, 52 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 1: and a federal jury in Florida cleared Right in December 53 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:17,799 Speaker 1: twenty one of claims including fraud and that but did 54 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 1: order him to pay a one hundred million dollar judgment 55 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 1: for the unlawful seizure of intellectual property tied to his 56 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:27,000 Speaker 1: and his alleged form of business partners a state. So 57 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 1: a hundred million dollar judgment, And it was a big 58 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:33,679 Speaker 1: case because it involved this kind of idiosyncratic figure like 59 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:35,839 Speaker 1: Craig Wright, who has claimed to be the person who 60 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 1: developed bitcoin. A lot of people don't believe that claim. 61 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:41,119 Speaker 1: But because of that gave him a lot of publicity. 62 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 1: There was a big trial in December and they got 63 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 1: a hundred million dollar judgment and to their minds, the 64 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 1: way that they touted it was that it was a 65 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 1: precedent setting case and they celebrated as such. He arrives 66 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 1: in London barely five years out of law school, and 67 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 1: he's looking to line up investors for litigation crowdfunding start up. Right. So, 68 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 1: in addition, Kyle Roach was hoping to start this company 69 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 1: called Rival, which would essentially be in ways that you 70 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 1: might know litigation finance, where certain investment firms or litigation 71 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:20,600 Speaker 1: finance firms will help fund the litigating of the lawsuit 72 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 1: for plaintiffs firm. Uh. He wanted to do that in 73 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 1: a sense, but on the blockchain, so giving retail investors 74 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:32,159 Speaker 1: of crypto the chance to bet on a lawsuit and 75 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:36,159 Speaker 1: to help perhaps finance a lawsuit on the blockchain. That 76 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:38,800 Speaker 1: was at least the idea. And he goes to London 77 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:43,599 Speaker 1: with hopes of getting a venture capitalist, a Norwegian eventful 78 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:46,920 Speaker 1: capitalist named Kristen obar Hansen who was based in London, 79 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:49,960 Speaker 1: the hopes of getting him to you know, be receptive 80 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:52,920 Speaker 1: to it and to write down a check that would 81 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 1: help the funding of getting this thing off the ground. 82 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 1: What kind of statements did he make in this meeting 83 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 1: that he had ad Was it just pumping himself up? 84 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:05,599 Speaker 1: So they really ranged, as you mentioned, I think there 85 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:08,840 Speaker 1: was a level of being brash and being in front 86 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:12,120 Speaker 1: of an investor and trying to woo the crowd, but 87 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:16,119 Speaker 1: it also got into this territory where he really began 88 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:19,479 Speaker 1: to explain this relationship that he had with this blockchain 89 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:24,120 Speaker 1: startup called able Labs, and these leaked recordings show him 90 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 1: voicing an apparent strategy to target able Labs his competitors 91 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 1: by using litigation, by using class action lawsuits that are 92 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 1: supposedly on behalf of investors but may actually be an 93 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:38,480 Speaker 1: underhanded way of helping able lapse. That is what he 94 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 1: says in these videos. He's also recorded disparaging jurors and 95 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 1: class members and saying other things about how his job 96 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:49,600 Speaker 1: is to find other magnets for US regulators to go 97 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:53,279 Speaker 1: after instead of his clients. So those comments were the 98 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:57,160 Speaker 1: ones that set off the fallout. Justin Kyle Roche didn't 99 00:05:57,200 --> 00:06:01,239 Speaker 1: realize that he was being video o taped. He didn't 100 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 1: find out until months later when this crypto leaks site 101 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:09,320 Speaker 1: put it out there right, So he goes to London 102 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:12,719 Speaker 1: in late January, and ten months later they are released 103 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 1: by this website named crypto leaks. And you know, with 104 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 1: the caveat, was still unclear who is behind the website 105 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 1: crypto leaks, but it posts in late August and it 106 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 1: includes this long post with about twenty five different videos 107 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 1: spliced in between text loving out Kyle Roach's time in 108 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:34,840 Speaker 1: London two different settings, once in a conference room in 109 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:38,520 Speaker 1: Kristin Oga Hanssen's office in London, and others at this 110 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 1: bustling restaurant in London. And the videos lay out what 111 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 1: I previously said, Kyle Rose talking about himself as a lawyer, 112 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:50,279 Speaker 1: talking about his relationship with this company named Able Labs, 113 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 1: and also talking about how he uses the court system 114 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:55,840 Speaker 1: to help Table Labs. And no one knows at this 115 00:06:55,960 --> 00:07:00,200 Speaker 1: point even who recorded those. That is where we get 116 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:04,599 Speaker 1: into really messy territory. After the videos were published, Kyle 117 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 1: Roche posts an online statement a few days later on 118 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 1: the website Medium claiming that Kristin ager Hansen, this Norwegian 119 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 1: entrepreneur who runs a private equity firm, was behind it. 120 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 1: He also claims that Christian ago Hansen was working for 121 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 1: a crypto firm named Definity, which is actually a defendant 122 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 1: in an action that Roch's firm filed. Now he didn't 123 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 1: give any evidence to support that claim, and his law 124 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 1: firm has also made that claim, but it's still not 125 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:37,920 Speaker 1: clear who was behind them. Christo ago Hansen has said 126 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 1: to me that a business consultant who had first reached 127 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:45,720 Speaker 1: out to him about potential opportunities in the blockchain space 128 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:48,760 Speaker 1: when he set up the meeting with Kyle Roche and 129 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 1: people from Ava Labs. He claims that this man was 130 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 1: behind the recordings and has claimed that he has not 131 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 1: been able to get in touch with him since, and 132 00:07:56,640 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 1: that he also thinks that the name that this business 133 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 1: consultant provided maybe an alias. So it gets into really 134 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 1: really messy territory from there. Has it been alleged or 135 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 1: proven in any way that this was an orchestrated takedown 136 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 1: of Roche. I think it's clear that we can say 137 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 1: this was an orchestrated takedown of Roche. What gets less 138 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 1: clear as who was behind it. I think you can 139 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 1: tell that Kyle Roche was in London and was being 140 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:29,880 Speaker 1: secretly recorded with the goal of publishing those recordings to 141 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:35,199 Speaker 1: make him look bad. It was sort of a spectacular downfall. 142 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:39,040 Speaker 1: Tell us what happened in a nutshell. The recording has 143 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 1: come out in late August, less than two months later, 144 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 1: Roche is out of his law firm. His law firm 145 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 1: has changed its name to erase any link to him. 146 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:50,800 Speaker 1: He has lost his role in a number of different 147 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 1: crypto class actions. The first crypto lawsuit his firm filed 148 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 1: in twenty nineteen was this market manipulation suit against the 149 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 1: crypto exchange bitfin x and it's a phil It tether 150 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:03,160 Speaker 1: which is behind the tether stable coin. They had been 151 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 1: litigating for about three years up until October, and a 152 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 1: New York judge actually kicked the firm off the case 153 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:14,320 Speaker 1: in response to these videos and requests from not just 154 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:17,600 Speaker 1: the defendants but also roaches co council. There were a 155 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:19,679 Speaker 1: couple of other law from working with them on the case, 156 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:22,360 Speaker 1: and they requested that the firm be kicked off the 157 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 1: case to avoid, in their words, a side show. Just 158 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 1: a few days later, the firm cut links to Kyle 159 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:31,840 Speaker 1: Roach in what appears to be an attempt to move 160 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:35,080 Speaker 1: on from this saga and to avoid more Domino's fallen. 161 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 1: Is the field of cryptocurrency law particularly cut throat compared 162 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:45,320 Speaker 1: to other areas of law. You know, that's a really 163 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:49,840 Speaker 1: good question. And I think as this new industry has emerged, 164 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:52,959 Speaker 1: it has a lot of brash figures, and it has 165 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 1: a lot of people moving fast and breaking things, and 166 00:09:56,320 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 1: it's bound to lead to some fights. And I think 167 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 1: from the angle that I'm looking into, what I can 168 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:07,199 Speaker 1: tell you is that there has been a huge surge 169 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 1: in litigation involving the cryptocurrency space. Some would say that 170 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:15,440 Speaker 1: it's very much akin to any industry that gets more mature, 171 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:17,840 Speaker 1: it's going to have to deal with more litigation. But 172 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 1: you know, if you just look at the number of 173 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 1: securities class actions that have been filed against cryptocurrency companies 174 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:26,200 Speaker 1: in the last two years, it is nothing compared to 175 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:28,960 Speaker 1: what it was like maybe five years ago. So I 176 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 1: think in those senses, it's really led to a lot 177 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 1: of hostilities between some different folks in different parts of 178 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:40,240 Speaker 1: the industry, or even branches that are off the industry, 179 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 1: such as the legal one and this crypto leak site. 180 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 1: Still no one knows who's behind it. It's very unclear. 181 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 1: The website was registered with an anonymous domain in May, 182 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:57,360 Speaker 1: and as I mentioned, Kyle Roach and his former law 183 00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 1: firm have drawn some connections from publicly available evidence to 184 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 1: draw a connection between crypto Leaks and the crypto firm Definity, 185 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:12,200 Speaker 1: which is behind the Internet Computer blockchain and the i 186 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 1: c P token. Now, their claims are that every story 187 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:20,080 Speaker 1: on crypto leaks has been related to Definity in the 188 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:23,199 Speaker 1: i c P token, and have drawn some other links 189 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 1: between Kristin ager Hansen, who has reportedly had a history 190 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 1: of secretly recording folks. So that is their claim. What 191 00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 1: we are going to probably find out more though, because 192 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 1: as I mentioned, wiss former firm file the lawsuits against Deffinity, 193 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 1: and they have made those claims in court filings in 194 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 1: that lawsuit against Definity. Now Definity has yet to respond, 195 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 1: but they are due to respond by tomorrow and then 196 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:54,560 Speaker 1: there will be a hearing scheduled in January. There's perhaps 197 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:56,680 Speaker 1: more that we may be able to find out in 198 00:11:56,720 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 1: the coming weeks and months. As you said, he was 199 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:03,480 Speaker 1: listed from his own firm. He's down, but he's not out, 200 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 1: is he He's not out. He has established his own 201 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:11,320 Speaker 1: solo practice and has some individual matters that he's remaining 202 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 1: to work on. According to the doctorates, it seems that 203 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 1: he's not completely gone away. He's certainly off maybe a 204 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 1: lot of the more high profile cases that he was 205 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:24,439 Speaker 1: working on. But you know, for that matter, that lawsuit 206 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:27,559 Speaker 1: we mentioned at the outset against Craig Wright, the self 207 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:31,440 Speaker 1: proclaimed bitcoin inventor, that is on appeal now and he is, 208 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 1: along with his former firm, are buying to remain counsel 209 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 1: in that case. Rights counsel has pushed for their disqualification. 210 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:41,320 Speaker 1: He's one of at least five defendants who have pushed 211 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 1: for not just roches but his his entire firms disqualification 212 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:50,720 Speaker 1: from representing its party in the case. So he's certainly 213 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:53,560 Speaker 1: not going away, and it's perhaps time maybe the best 214 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:56,080 Speaker 1: thing on his side. Thanks so much, Justin. It's a 215 00:12:56,160 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 1: great story. That's Bloomberg Law reporter Justin Wise. Former President 216 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:05,960 Speaker 1: Donald Trump has announced another White House run while facing 217 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 1: a slew of legal troubles, with potential criminal indictments and 218 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 1: maybe a civil trial ord to interrupting any campaign. However, 219 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 1: on Tuesday, federal judges dismissed two lawsuits against him, one 220 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 1: by his niece Mary Trump and the other by his 221 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:24,559 Speaker 1: former attorney Michael Cohen joining me to discuss these is 222 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:28,840 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Legal reporter Eric Larson. What was his niece, Mary 223 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:32,080 Speaker 1: Trump suing him over? So? Mary Trump had had filed 224 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:36,760 Speaker 1: the lawsuit in accusing Donald Trump and his siblings Robert 225 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 1: Trump and Maryanne Trump of basically defrauding her out of 226 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 1: her share of the family's fortune through a series of 227 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 1: alleged schemes that spanned several years and involved her inheritance 228 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 1: from her father. They acted as fadutiaries for her when 229 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:56,680 Speaker 1: her father passed away, and so she claims that she 230 00:13:56,800 --> 00:14:01,280 Speaker 1: was supplied for years with fake documents, false documents, tax returns, 231 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:05,079 Speaker 1: financial disclosures, things like that to make her believe that 232 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:08,560 Speaker 1: her share in the family business was worth much less 233 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 1: than it was, so that when a big family settlement 234 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:14,559 Speaker 1: happened in two thousand one to resolve various legal disputes, 235 00:14:14,679 --> 00:14:17,079 Speaker 1: she ended up selling her share for what she says 236 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 1: was tens of millions of dollars less than what it 237 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 1: was really worth. Do we know how much she got 238 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 1: from that settlement. We don't. At least I'm not sure 239 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 1: how much she got from it. But they had quite 240 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 1: a large obviously a large operation with the Trump's family, 241 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:35,239 Speaker 1: lots of real estate um interests involving hundreds of apartments, 242 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 1: and you know, large property isn't with shopping centers and 243 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:41,880 Speaker 1: things like that. So it was a pretty complex group 244 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 1: of assets that they sort of referred to as their 245 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 1: mini empire, you know, in court papers revealed that's one 246 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:49,760 Speaker 1: of the things they called it. So it was a 247 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 1: pretty complex operation. She had a minority share in it, 248 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 1: and it was significant enough that she claims that the 249 00:14:57,280 --> 00:15:01,280 Speaker 1: amount that they devalued through deceiving her was worth tens 250 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 1: of millions of dollars, potentially more than seventy acres of 251 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 1: land in New York City. I'd like to know what 252 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 1: that was worth. So why did why did the judge 253 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 1: dismiss it? Well, the judge decided that Donald Trump and 254 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 1: the estate of Robert Trump, who passed away after the 255 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:21,400 Speaker 1: suit was filed, and that Marian Trump had correctly argued 256 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:24,120 Speaker 1: that the two thousand one settlement agreement that I mentioned 257 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:29,040 Speaker 1: earlier had explicitly released any of Mary Trump's potential future 258 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 1: claims arising from this whole dispute. You know, the judge 259 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:35,760 Speaker 1: says it was unambiguous that it released them from all 260 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 1: future potential claims. Of course, Mary Trump and her lawyers 261 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 1: argued that that was really kind of void, considering her 262 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 1: a claim that they had specifically deceived her and lied 263 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 1: to her for years, and her lawyer argued that it 264 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:50,920 Speaker 1: was clear that the deception was intended to rip her 265 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:54,880 Speaker 1: off essentially, and that therefore the contract releasing that from 266 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 1: claims wasn't valid. But the judge said that there was 267 00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 1: no language in the contract that specifically said that Donald 268 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:03,800 Speaker 1: Trump and Robert Trump and Marian Trump needed to be 269 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 1: truthful to her. So that was kind of unusual, But 270 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 1: that's why the judge said he dismissed it. Unusual is 271 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:11,480 Speaker 1: one way of putting it. He said, the settlement didn't 272 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 1: mandate the elder Trump's to be truthful. Quote, if plaintiff 273 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 1: did not wish to forego suing on fraud she might 274 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 1: discover in the future, she could have insisted that the 275 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 1: releases be conditioned on the truth and accuracy of the 276 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 1: financial information provided by defendants, right. And you know, I'm 277 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:30,160 Speaker 1: not a lawyer, but it seemed like maybe what the 278 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:33,040 Speaker 1: judge was getting at is that specific language should have 279 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 1: been put it in in there, saying, you know, something along 280 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:37,720 Speaker 1: the lines of all of this is, you know, based 281 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:40,280 Speaker 1: on the statements being true or things like that. I'm 282 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 1: not sure what exactly the judge was referring to, but 283 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 1: you know, Mary Trump's lawyer, ROBERTA. Kaplan, quite skilled litigator. 284 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 1: You know, she's planning to appeal this. She said she's 285 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:53,440 Speaker 1: going to argue that there is enough evidence or claims 286 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 1: in the complaint to get around its release of all claims, 287 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 1: you know, including her claim that Trump and his siblings 288 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 1: sort of threatened to withhold health insurance to one of 289 00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:07,000 Speaker 1: Mary Trump's young family members who are suffering an illness 290 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:10,080 Speaker 1: to try to twist her arm and agree to this settlement, which, 291 00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:12,880 Speaker 1: of course the elder Trump's have all denied doing anything 292 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:15,119 Speaker 1: like that. But the claims are in there and the complaints. 293 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:17,240 Speaker 1: Mary Trump claims she was sort of forced into this 294 00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 1: and she was also deceived, and so they're going to 295 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 1: try to get an appeals course to see this is differently, Eric, 296 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 1: is the timing of this decision a little odd? The 297 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:29,719 Speaker 1: motion has been pending for quite a long time, and 298 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:32,200 Speaker 1: then the judge hands down the decision on the same 299 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 1: day that Trump has said he's going to announce another 300 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:39,520 Speaker 1: run for president. I mean, it was certainly at least 301 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:42,720 Speaker 1: a strange coincidence. I do know from speaking with Mary 302 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:46,679 Speaker 1: Trump's lawyer over the years that she has been waiting 303 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 1: very anxiously for this decision on the motion that dismissed 304 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:52,480 Speaker 1: and has been saying for quite some time that the 305 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 1: decision was long overdue. So the judge, I'm not aware 306 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:57,960 Speaker 1: of the judge ever saying anything about timing, like and 307 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:00,360 Speaker 1: I'm gonna wait to issue decision for such and such 308 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 1: political reason. You know, nothing like that was ever said. 309 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:05,399 Speaker 1: It just sort of never came. So for it to 310 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:08,120 Speaker 1: be issued, uh, you know on that same day, of course, 311 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:10,280 Speaker 1: did sort of stand out. But you know, there's been 312 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 1: all kinds of questions in the courts with Trump being 313 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:15,879 Speaker 1: involved in so much litigation, about whether or not judges 314 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 1: decisions could you know, influence some politics or things like that. 315 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:21,320 Speaker 1: Of course, we're waiting for the Justice Department to decide 316 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 1: whether or not it might you know, charge Donald Trump 317 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:27,240 Speaker 1: over January six or over the documents issue with mar Lazo. 318 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 1: So there's so much politics involved in everything legal related 319 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:32,439 Speaker 1: to Trump. I guess it wouldn't really surprise me. But 320 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 1: Mary Trump's lawyer definitely said that this took way too long, 321 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:38,840 Speaker 1: especially given the age of these defendants and the facts. 322 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:41,120 Speaker 1: She specifically said in her statement to me, she called 323 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:44,160 Speaker 1: out the fact that Trump is now running for president again, which, 324 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:47,080 Speaker 1: in her view, she seems to believe that this decisions 325 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 1: should have been issued sooner rather than later, to give 326 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:52,159 Speaker 1: the case a chance to move forward before he's actually 327 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:55,439 Speaker 1: running for president again. Did they do any discovery do 328 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:58,680 Speaker 1: you know in the case before the motion to dismiss. 329 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:01,119 Speaker 1: I don't believe so. I could be wrong in that, 330 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:04,360 Speaker 1: so I'm not exactly sure. I know that that usually 331 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:07,639 Speaker 1: kicks up after a motion to dismiss. But there was 332 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:12,400 Speaker 1: already so much documents available because of course Mary Trump 333 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:15,960 Speaker 1: had been a source and a secret source, you could say, 334 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:18,880 Speaker 1: for the New York Times is two thousand eighteen expose 335 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 1: on Trump's taxes, and a lot of those documents from 336 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:24,399 Speaker 1: that two thousand one settlements and and all kinds of 337 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 1: other records she obtains and gives the New York Times, 338 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 1: and those records are what underlie her her claims about fraud. 339 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:34,959 Speaker 1: So that is why, you know, maybe as far as 340 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 1: discovery is concerned, a lot of documents are already out there. 341 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 1: But I'm not sure how far they got online. Now 342 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 1: let's just untangle. There are several lawsuits between Mary Trump 343 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:48,240 Speaker 1: and former President Donald Trump. First of all, there was 344 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:52,200 Speaker 1: a lawsuit trying to stop her from writing that tell 345 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 1: All book. She won that, Yeah, she won that. I 346 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 1: don't believe Donald Trump was specifically defended in that. I 347 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 1: think that Robert Trump, before he passed away, believe that 348 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:04,520 Speaker 1: he filed that suit. But of course, you know, Donald 349 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:07,159 Speaker 1: Trump would have been maybe involved behind the scenes or whatnot. 350 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:09,400 Speaker 1: There there was a considered effort to stop this book 351 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 1: from being published. She prevailed in that. The book went out, 352 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:16,040 Speaker 1: and she's been a fierce critic of her uncle ever 353 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:18,200 Speaker 1: since then, you know, going on TV and on Twitter 354 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 1: and things like that. So she did win that. Now 355 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:24,240 Speaker 1: she's lost this one, But there is still another remaining case, 356 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:27,879 Speaker 1: and that's Donald Trump's lawsuit against her, accusing her of 357 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:32,159 Speaker 1: violating the confidentiality clause of that two thousand one family 358 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:36,359 Speaker 1: settlement by being a source for the New York Times article. 359 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:38,399 Speaker 1: And the suit also names the New York Times by 360 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:41,240 Speaker 1: the way, So that case has been moving along pretty 361 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 1: slowly like the other one, and hopefully it'll it'll be 362 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:47,240 Speaker 1: moving along soon. I think there might be a hearing 363 00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:49,960 Speaker 1: schedule in that case now for next month. She has 364 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:53,119 Speaker 1: a motion to dismiss in that case pending that's correct, 365 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:55,560 Speaker 1: and she argues that it was her her right to 366 00:20:56,440 --> 00:21:00,200 Speaker 1: provide these documents that because she had been defraud did. 367 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:02,440 Speaker 1: The New York Times of course, argues that it's the 368 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:05,879 Speaker 1: First Amendment right to produce the document that it did produce, 369 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:07,960 Speaker 1: you know, winning the Polticer price. So that that article 370 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:10,879 Speaker 1: shows how much public interest there was in Donald Trump's taxes, 371 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 1: and that actually remains an area of concerned for many people. 372 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:17,199 Speaker 1: So very interesting case, potentially even more interesting than the 373 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:19,520 Speaker 1: one that was just dismissed. So it'll be interesting to 374 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:22,920 Speaker 1: see how far Donald Trump goes on that. ROBERTA. Caplan 375 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:26,680 Speaker 1: her lawyer, she's also a Gene Carol's lawyer. Does she 376 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:29,600 Speaker 1: have a lot of cases against Donald Trump? And is 377 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 1: there a reason? Well, you could say that she's a 378 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 1: fierce critic of Donald Trump. And I believe Egen Carroll had, uh, 379 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:42,399 Speaker 1: you know, made her serious allegations of rape against Donald Trump, 380 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:44,879 Speaker 1: and then when he denied it in crude terms, she 381 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:47,800 Speaker 1: sued him for defamation. And I believe that Mary Trump 382 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:50,679 Speaker 1: was aware of that case and read about it, and 383 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:52,719 Speaker 1: I believe that may have been why she ended up 384 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:54,840 Speaker 1: reaching out to ROBERTA. Caplan because she wanted her to 385 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:58,879 Speaker 1: represent her as well. So yeah, there's definitely UM some 386 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:03,760 Speaker 1: criticism there. She also represents a handful of investors who 387 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:07,240 Speaker 1: have an appending civil fraud suit filed against Donald Trump 388 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:10,640 Speaker 1: and his elder children and his company UM, alleging that 389 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:14,040 Speaker 1: he tricks them into investing in a very troubled multi 390 00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:17,480 Speaker 1: level marketing company that he endorsed for years on his 391 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:20,040 Speaker 1: celebrity apprentice show before he was president, and a lot 392 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:23,200 Speaker 1: of people invested in that multi level marketing company and 393 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 1: lost a lot of money. And they claimed that Donald 394 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:28,640 Speaker 1: Trump never revealed that he was being paid for these 395 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 1: endorsements and just was lying by saying he believed in 396 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:35,359 Speaker 1: their products, which included, you know, a desktop video phone 397 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:37,080 Speaker 1: that was really clunky and he said was going to 398 00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:39,800 Speaker 1: be the future of communication, and you know, it was 399 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 1: already on its way out the door because of smartphones. 400 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:45,360 Speaker 1: So ROBERTA. Kaplan is running that case as well. It's 401 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:48,000 Speaker 1: hard to keep track of the cases. The e Gene 402 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 1: Carol case was a deposition of Trump ordered in that case, 403 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 1: a deposition was ordered and he had been questions and 404 00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 1: he answered questions under oath in that case. Just recently, 405 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:03,920 Speaker 1: Doing know anything about what he said? I assume was denials. No, No, 406 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 1: we don't know anything about that. Both sides are very 407 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:10,360 Speaker 1: tight lips about anything that is said in deposition. So 408 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:12,639 Speaker 1: that's not terribly surprising. But if it ever does go 409 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 1: to trial, I think that, you know, some of that 410 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:18,760 Speaker 1: that information could come out interesting now from you know, 411 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:23,960 Speaker 1: one Trump suit to another. Michael Cohen, of course, Trump's 412 00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:29,160 Speaker 1: former attorney had sued Trump, claiming that he retaliated against him. 413 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:32,440 Speaker 1: It's a little complicated. Tell us about it, well, Michael Cohen, 414 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:35,720 Speaker 1: of course, you know, pleaded guilty to crimes, including a 415 00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:38,920 Speaker 1: campaign finance crimes related to those hush money payments to 416 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:42,400 Speaker 1: Stormy Daniels before Trump was elected in two thousand and sixteen. 417 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 1: So he pleaded guilty to that were sentenced to three years. 418 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:47,719 Speaker 1: He ended up getting out a little early because of 419 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:50,600 Speaker 1: COVID um and going to home arrest. But while he 420 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 1: was locked up, he was writing a book, I tell 421 00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:57,600 Speaker 1: all book about Donald Trump. And when Cohen was released 422 00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:00,719 Speaker 1: from prison due to to COVID he claims that he 423 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 1: was thrown back in prison and into solitary confignment for 424 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:08,879 Speaker 1: about two weeks because Trump wanted to silence him from 425 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 1: writing this book. He essentially was presented with the document 426 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:15,080 Speaker 1: saying signed this agreeing to never not speak to the 427 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 1: media or write a new books and you can stay 428 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:23,359 Speaker 1: out of prison. Um like a movie, You're right. So anyway, 429 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,520 Speaker 1: he ended up filing a legal action from behind bars, 430 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:30,240 Speaker 1: you know, habeas corpoise action, and and a judge sided 431 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:32,720 Speaker 1: with him in very strong terms, said that it was 432 00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:36,680 Speaker 1: improper what it happened, it was retaliation, and let him out. 433 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 1: So then Cohen sued the government, sued Trump former Attorney 434 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:45,720 Speaker 1: General will William Barr and accused them of retaliating against 435 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:49,159 Speaker 1: him illegally. So that suit has been pending for a while, 436 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 1: and that suit was also just tossed up. Yeah, why 437 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:56,000 Speaker 1: did the judge toss it out? Because he said that 438 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:59,919 Speaker 1: the complaint alleged is an egregious violation of constitutional right 439 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,080 Speaker 1: by the executive branch, nothing short of the use of 440 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:06,960 Speaker 1: executive power to lock up the president's political enemies for 441 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:10,160 Speaker 1: speaking critically of him. So tell us why in light 442 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:13,640 Speaker 1: of that the judge still felt he had to dismiss 443 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 1: the suit right, and that quote really sums up the 444 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:20,320 Speaker 1: judge's decision. He thought what happened to Michael Cohen was 445 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:23,160 Speaker 1: pretty awful, but he said that his hands were essentially 446 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:26,160 Speaker 1: tied because the U. S. Supreme Court in recent years 447 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 1: has been chipping away at this right that had been 448 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:33,119 Speaker 1: established under previous Supreme Court president to sue law enforcement 449 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:36,959 Speaker 1: for wrongdoing. So I'm not sure exactly how every one 450 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 1: of the cases has chipped away at that right. It's 451 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:41,320 Speaker 1: called the Bibbins claim. That's the name of the sort 452 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:45,160 Speaker 1: of landmark case that was involved. And in recent years 453 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:47,720 Speaker 1: they've just the Supreme courts is sort of chipped away 454 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:50,760 Speaker 1: and when it's appropriate to sue the government in this 455 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:53,639 Speaker 1: way over a law enforcement action like that. And I 456 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 1: think that, as with a lot of things you see, 457 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 1: it's um you know, the Supreme Court changing in some ways. 458 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:01,560 Speaker 1: They're saying this just isn't role of the courts unless 459 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:05,480 Speaker 1: Congress creates this right. So basically they're saying, if there's 460 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:08,439 Speaker 1: it's right to sue over these sort of wrongdoings by 461 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:12,359 Speaker 1: law enforcement, then Congress should create that right explicitly in 462 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:15,680 Speaker 1: the instead of relying on Supreme Court President to create it. Yeah, 463 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:18,200 Speaker 1: I don't even know what's left of Bivins anymore after 464 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:23,600 Speaker 1: the recent decisions of the Court. But get another Michael 465 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:27,919 Speaker 1: Cohne suit he won before the Appeals Court that he 466 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 1: can sue Trump to cover the millions of dollars in 467 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 1: legal fees that he incurred from defending against investigations into 468 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,440 Speaker 1: his work for Trump because the real estate firm stopped 469 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:44,240 Speaker 1: paying his legal bills. So that's another suit that's going 470 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:47,440 Speaker 1: forward here. And I think that, you know, there's probably 471 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 1: a lot of different types of employment contracts where employees 472 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:52,880 Speaker 1: are you know, get caught up in various legal troubles 473 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:55,520 Speaker 1: for whatever reason, and they expect or hope that their 474 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:58,480 Speaker 1: employer is going to pay those legal fees. So in 475 00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:00,640 Speaker 1: a way, that lawsuit is kind of like a standard 476 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 1: one you might expect to see, except that it involves 477 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:06,280 Speaker 1: Michael Cohen and the Trump organization. So Mr Cohen was 478 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,160 Speaker 1: pretty pleased about that um and getting that news right 479 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:11,640 Speaker 1: about the same time that his other case was thrown out. 480 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:14,080 Speaker 1: So it's kind of a consolation price there, I guess. 481 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:16,680 Speaker 1: But I'm sure that the Trump organization is going to 482 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:21,040 Speaker 1: continue to fight this very fiercely. And let's talk about 483 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:23,879 Speaker 1: one more Trump suit. Eric Donald Trump is trying to 484 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:27,280 Speaker 1: avoid paying more than one million dollars in legal fees 485 00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:30,919 Speaker 1: and cost to Hillary Clinton and dozens of others. First, 486 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 1: why did he sue them? So? He sued Hillary Clinton 487 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 1: and the Democratic Party and a couple of dozen other 488 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:43,960 Speaker 1: individuals and entities, everyone that was sort of tangentially involved 489 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:47,080 Speaker 1: in the Russia investigation into Trump during his single term 490 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:50,760 Speaker 1: in office. He alleged that they basically all conspired a 491 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:54,359 Speaker 1: conspiracy led by Hillary Clinton and other top Democrats in 492 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 1: her campaign and in the d n C conspired to 493 00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:01,560 Speaker 1: undermine his presidency with a fake rush which Hunt investigation. 494 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:04,080 Speaker 1: So he spelled it all out in this complaint. It 495 00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:07,600 Speaker 1: was really long. Essentially was filed under a civil version 496 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:11,679 Speaker 1: of the racketeering laws normally used against organized crime, and 497 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:15,000 Speaker 1: it had all the grievances from the Russian investigations spelled 498 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,760 Speaker 1: out and there everything from the Steel dossier to Fusion GPS. 499 00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:20,720 Speaker 1: You know, anyone who followed that news at that time 500 00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:24,000 Speaker 1: would see every every name and entity in there, all 501 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:27,640 Speaker 1: named defendants. They filed a motion to dismiss that just 502 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:30,600 Speaker 1: picked a part the complaints saying how it failed to 503 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:33,200 Speaker 1: put together a conspiracy and that a lot of the 504 00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:37,120 Speaker 1: claims they said were not really backed by anything like facts, 505 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,560 Speaker 1: but just sort of assertions or theories. And the judge 506 00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:44,440 Speaker 1: in Florida Federal Judge dismissed the case in September, and 507 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:46,840 Speaker 1: Trump was given a chance to amend the complaint, which 508 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:48,960 Speaker 1: he did, but as far as the judge was concerned, 509 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 1: the amended complaint was no better and it was had 510 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:57,000 Speaker 1: in fact, wasted everyone's time because one of the defendants, 511 00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 1: just one of them, a man named Charles Dolan, a 512 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 1: Democratic political portis who worked on Clinton's campaign and lots 513 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:06,520 Speaker 1: of Democratic campaigns, filed a motion for sanctions against Trump lawyers, 514 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 1: and the judge just recently granted the motion and ordered 515 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:12,480 Speaker 1: Trump lawyers to pay sixteen thousand dollars in legal fees 516 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 1: and cost to Charles Dolan, plus fifty thousand dollars to 517 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 1: the court as an additional slap on the wrist. But 518 00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:21,120 Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton and all the other defendants have filed the 519 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:24,920 Speaker 1: joint motion for sanctions that even bigger, totaling over one 520 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:28,560 Speaker 1: million dollars in fees and costs, So that motion for 521 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:31,720 Speaker 1: sanctions is pending and the judge who will decide on 522 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:34,440 Speaker 1: it has clearly already decided that this case was a 523 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:37,400 Speaker 1: real stinker. He said it was filed for political reasons, 524 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:40,080 Speaker 1: that it had no basis in fact, and he really 525 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:44,160 Speaker 1: faulted the lawyers specifically for being involved in it. I 526 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:46,960 Speaker 1: don't know how you're keeping up with all these cases, Eric, 527 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:51,560 Speaker 1: and all the different permutations. Thanks so much. That's Eric Lawson, 528 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Legal Reporter,