1 00:00:02,640 --> 00:00:13,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, Welcome to the Bloomberg Surveillance Podcast. I'm Tom Keene 2 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 1: Jai Ley. We bring you insight from the best in economics, finance, investment, 3 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 1: and international relations. Find Bloomberg Surveillance on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, 4 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 1: Bloomberg dot Com, and of course on the Bloomberg Joann 5 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: Farrell and Tom Keene on the American banks, and there's 6 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: no better place to be than with Gerard Cassidy of 7 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 1: RBC Capital Markets. Gerard, we're just talking about the minting 8 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 1: of money. You look at operating and come on an 9 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:43,840 Speaker 1: annual basis of so many banks, and it sure looks 10 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 1: like minting money. Is that the right phrase, Tom? I 11 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 1: think is correct. In fact, if you look at the industry, 12 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 1: this will be the fourth consecutive year of record profitability. Now, 13 00:00:56,560 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: granted we have the lower tax rates that have contributed 14 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 1: to that, but even when you take those out, we 15 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 1: are going into our fourth year of record profitability for 16 00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:10,560 Speaker 1: the banking industry. The most interesting comes since from the 17 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 1: Bank of American Lending Business this morning. Gerard. Clearly higher 18 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:18,200 Speaker 1: rates are translating into a high night interest marchin at 19 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:21,959 Speaker 1: some of these big lenders in America. Clearly, higher rates 20 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 1: are translating into higher interest income. None of this, though, 21 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 1: seems to be translating into stock price out performance. Why not, Gerard? 22 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:34,759 Speaker 1: You you you framed it properly, and I would suggest them. 23 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:39,040 Speaker 1: What we hear from many investors today is the expression 24 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 1: late cycle, and they're concerned that the U. S economy 25 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 1: is not going to be able to maintain this growth 26 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 1: and therefore, what do I need to own a bank? 27 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 1: If the US economy grows the way we think it will, 28 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 1: similar to the way it grew after the Kennedy tax 29 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 1: cuts in the sixties and the Reagan tax cuts in 30 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 1: the eighties, I think you'll see investor has come on 31 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:03,800 Speaker 1: board to the banks very shortly here. So, Jerard, the 32 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 1: loan growth that you and I have been talking about 33 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:08,359 Speaker 1: for quite a few quarters, now, are you slowly seeing 34 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:12,960 Speaker 1: it come through? We are for the industry. What's interesting 35 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:14,959 Speaker 1: is that if you look at the weekly data comes 36 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 1: out of every Friday afternoon, this past week, it was 37 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 1: up around four and a half percent year of a 38 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:22,400 Speaker 1: year growth. That's up from about two percent at the 39 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 1: beginning of the year, So you're seeing a creep up. However, 40 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 1: amongst the biggest banks, the top twenty five banks. That 41 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 1: growth is still on a year of a year basis 42 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 1: in the low two percent range, but the smaller banks 43 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 1: are growing loans close to ten percent over a year, 44 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:39,320 Speaker 1: so that there's a real market share battle going on. 45 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:42,480 Speaker 1: Well within the market share battle is the word that 46 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 1: I think Gerard, you wrote about it about nine. Scale. 47 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:51,680 Speaker 1: Scale is nothing. Come on, scale is the merger grab deposits, 48 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 1: cut costs. Right, your scale is time. I think you're 49 00:02:56,120 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 1: spot on now. I'd throw in from four or wasn't 50 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 1: as much about technology as it is today. So the 51 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 1: technology spend is also so Bank of America five years 52 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:08,679 Speaker 1: so now I got on listed a two and eight 53 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 1: thousand bodies. Maybe I'm guessing off the top of my 54 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 1: head it used to be two. I don't know where's 55 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:18,079 Speaker 1: that number in five years or ten years. If they 56 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 1: continue to grow there they're done with their you know, 57 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 1: significant downsizing from the crisis as we know, um now 58 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 1: they're actually adding people and as they continue to grow organically. 59 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 1: Remember our banking sector and went through an enormous consolidation 60 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 1: as a result of the Clinton President Clinton signing National 61 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 1: in Estate Banking in the early nineties. This bank, Bank 62 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 1: America has over a tem percent deposit market share. They're 63 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:51,240 Speaker 1: prohibited from acquiring any depository now they have to grow organically, 64 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 1: and that's what they're doing. It's quite interesting that we're 65 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 1: talking about competition to issue more loansome, Gerard, at a 66 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 1: time when Marcus, the unit of Colman Sacks, is pulling 67 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 1: back on its targets for next year. What do you 68 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 1: make of that? What's the signal that comes from that. 69 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:09,760 Speaker 1: I think under the new leadership at Goldman UH under 70 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 1: David Solomon, he's taken a step back, wants to make 71 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:16,800 Speaker 1: sure that they're going in the right direction, and I 72 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 1: think the Marcus pullback is part of that thinking. Um 73 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:24,600 Speaker 1: I believe that when we see the new Goldman saxon 74 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:28,680 Speaker 1: about six months, there will be a more comprehensive lending 75 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 1: product than not just a Marcus product. But that being said, 76 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 1: I think Goldman, you know, jumped into consumer lending, which 77 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:39,800 Speaker 1: is a very competitive area, and they're probably now want 78 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:42,160 Speaker 1: to reassess to make sure that this is the area 79 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 1: they want to go in. You mentioned the new Goldman Sacks. 80 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:46,479 Speaker 1: What's the new Goldman Sacks gonna look like, Erard? What 81 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 1: is it? I think they have, um, some sort of 82 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:53,039 Speaker 1: look that is going to be more similar to the 83 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 1: JP Morgan Universal Bank. Look, I believe you're going to 84 00:04:56,839 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 1: see less emphasis on trading, more faces on a total 85 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:06,239 Speaker 1: financial solutions to their corporate and commercial customers, and they'll 86 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 1: be more of a commercial bank. So you know you're 87 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:11,719 Speaker 1: gonna write a forty page like you know, into the 88 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 1: end of the year memo whatever. I'm sure you're working 89 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 1: on it already now. And all of that is trying 90 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 1: to game the next merger. And I know what you're 91 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:21,479 Speaker 1: gonna tell me, and your lawyers have told you you 92 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:25,040 Speaker 1: can't talk about that. Okay, guess what you're gonna talk 93 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:29,280 Speaker 1: about it? What flavor of bank will be part of 94 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 1: the combinations, who will be the combinator, and who will 95 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:39,039 Speaker 1: be the comin combinat Tom, I think you really have 96 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:41,839 Speaker 1: put your finger on it, because that is the one 97 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 1: piece that's missing from the banking sector. Large bank mergers, 98 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 1: we see them coming. There's some regulatory issues that still 99 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:52,240 Speaker 1: need to be a will will you think they'll be 100 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 1: finishing Those will be addressed by the first quarter of 101 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 1: next year. So can we see a US BANCORPS and 102 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:01,680 Speaker 1: of BB and T looked emerge with other large banks 103 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 1: or could we ever do a merger of vehicles in Ohio? 104 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:07,840 Speaker 1: Do you put a fifth third in a key corps together? Honey? Right, 105 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 1: And that's what we need to see, and I think 106 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 1: that's coming on the board. It's going to take a 107 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 1: little time. I mean, John, there was a point where 108 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:18,919 Speaker 1: Gerard Cassidy was daily, hourly on the streets of Boston 109 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:21,520 Speaker 1: and you could turn around three hundred and sixty degrees 110 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:24,120 Speaker 1: and see seven bank towers, and then all of a 111 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:26,839 Speaker 1: sudden it was four bank towers, and then it was 112 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 1: one name. What was the final name of bank, like 113 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:32,920 Speaker 1: Fenway Banking or something like that. I mean, everybody merged 114 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:35,640 Speaker 1: with everybody else, and it all became Bank of America. 115 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:38,119 Speaker 1: We have a moment of silence here for Fleet Bank, 116 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 1: A moment of silence for how you framed M and 117 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:46,160 Speaker 1: A a combanate tour and accompany. Yeah, that's story, British. 118 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 1: I have not heard that one before. We're talking about Wait, 119 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:54,160 Speaker 1: I can't concentrate today. The Duchess Sussex with child. I 120 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:56,920 Speaker 1: was so happy You've gone fifty four minutes without even 121 00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:03,919 Speaker 1: talking about it. We're not doing it, Tom A couple then, no, 122 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 1: no Gerard Banks, Tom banks we do in Banks Edwards, 123 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:14,240 Speaker 1: you stop it, Come on your kissidy, help me out here. 124 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 1: You always name the first kid after the richest grandfather, right, 125 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 1: that's Card and Roll, So it's got to be Charles, right, 126 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 1: Who wins? Inning seasoned Gerard, I would say, so far, 127 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:31,800 Speaker 1: what we're seeing, the JP Morgan numbers were strong. Bank 128 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 1: America's numbers today are also very strong. So and in 129 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:39,200 Speaker 1: the even city. So who wins in the The universal 130 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 1: bank model appears to be outperforming right now. The regional 131 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 1: bank model. We only have P and C so far 132 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 1: in the regionals, and their numbers came in a little 133 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 1: light on long growth. But we'll see what happens with 134 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 1: the rest of the regional banks. But right now, the 135 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 1: universal bank models put up good numbers here in the 136 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 1: third quarter. Did you pick for the next twelve months? Still? 137 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 1: I think so, John, I would stick with Bank America. 138 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 1: If you believe that the U. S economy is going 139 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 1: to grow as fast as we do, Bank America's very 140 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 1: well positioned to capture that. Plus, remember these banks are 141 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 1: still giving back excess capital. In Bank America is of 142 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 1: the universal banks is giving bank the least amount of 143 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:21,880 Speaker 1: capital relative to the city JP Morgan Wells and I 144 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 1: think they're gonna up that number in the c CAR 145 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 1: two thousand nineteen. Jug Cassidy, thank you so much with 146 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 1: the RBC Capital UH markets. You spoke with our Benjamin 147 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:38,719 Speaker 1: Harvey and instabule running all of our Bloomberg News operation 148 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:42,680 Speaker 1: UH in Turkey UH and out of that part of 149 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 1: the Middle East earlier and now without question or interview 150 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:49,080 Speaker 1: of the day and this on the uproar over the 151 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 1: disappearance of Mr Kashogi UH and as the Turks have said, 152 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:56,520 Speaker 1: the murder of Mr Kuschogi as well. John Svakiankists joins us. 153 00:08:56,760 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 1: He has been on the show any number of times 154 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 1: with a Golf Research Center Foundation, their economics research director. John, 155 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:06,640 Speaker 1: I have visited your office is in Riad. You are 156 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 1: a student of the royal family. Does um does the 157 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 1: Does the prince have the support of his royal family? 158 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 1: I think he has a support of the royal family, 159 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 1: and I also think he does have the support of 160 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:27,680 Speaker 1: his father, and that's why the father decided that he 161 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:31,680 Speaker 1: has to send a personal envoy to Turkey, and that 162 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 1: was the governor of the Western Province, Prince Khalat Alfasal 163 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 1: And at the same time, they have agreed to investigate 164 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 1: the matter of the Saluadis themselves and begin an investigation 165 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 1: on the issue of how Jamal Hashoji has disappeared and 166 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:52,600 Speaker 1: what's going on. If the Turks say that there is audio, 167 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 1: there are images, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, does Saudi Arabia accede 168 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:01,840 Speaker 1: to those items of evidence or do they have to 169 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 1: find their own evidence. It's a very good question. I 170 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 1: think that it will be difficult for the Saudis too 171 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 1: demonstrate that they have convincing evidence. To the contrary, if 172 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:20,640 Speaker 1: the Turks do share this evidence with the wider media, 173 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:23,520 Speaker 1: and at the same time, it could be that there 174 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:27,680 Speaker 1: is an agreement, because if things continue as is, things 175 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:30,560 Speaker 1: are going to heat up and both sides are going 176 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 1: to begin to reciprocate. And by both sides I mean 177 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:38,320 Speaker 1: the West, the US, UK, France, UM so Saudi Arabia 178 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 1: needs to show and demonstrate clearly that they are looking 179 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 1: into this affair and they're trying to find solutions and 180 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:50,680 Speaker 1: um find answers to the many questions of how he disappeared. John, 181 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:53,959 Speaker 1: let's have the ugly conversation of leverage. The President of 182 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:57,840 Speaker 1: the United States said he's prepared to take action. Saudi 183 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 1: Arabia has hardly stood back. They say it will also 184 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:04,959 Speaker 1: avowed threat that they vow to retaliate um and talk 185 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:08,920 Speaker 1: about their standing in the global economy, John, what does 186 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 1: action and retaliation look like and what kind of leverage 187 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 1: does Sauly Arabia have to ensure that the kind of 188 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:21,600 Speaker 1: action the United States takes isn't that harmful to the kingdom? Right? 189 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:26,959 Speaker 1: I think, Jonathan, that if things do continue in this 190 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 1: heated fashion, we've seen already an editorial by Saudi, who 191 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:35,719 Speaker 1: is very close to the center of power to kill 192 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:39,160 Speaker 1: the hail who did say that oil could be used 193 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 1: as a weapon. And of course God forbid if this 194 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:45,200 Speaker 1: happens at this point when the global economy is going 195 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:50,440 Speaker 1: through some first reverberations of challenges in terms of growth, 196 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 1: we see oil prices at a hundred fifty or two 197 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:55,600 Speaker 1: hundred dollars a barrel. I don't think that the US 198 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 1: will take that quite lightly, and it could very well 199 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:04,120 Speaker 1: then italiate and say, look, business comes second, and we're 200 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:07,280 Speaker 1: going to have a general embargo, and then Saudi Arabia 201 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:09,679 Speaker 1: is found in a position similar to that of Russia. 202 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:12,080 Speaker 1: I don't think we're going to get there. I think 203 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:15,679 Speaker 1: that there will be cooler heads that dominate both in 204 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 1: Saudia and the rest of the world. And I think 205 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 1: at the end um the perpetators or the people involved 206 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 1: in the possible event of murdering this journalist could be 207 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 1: found guilty and given to international justice. Again, this is 208 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 1: all speculation, well, the alleged murder of this journalist that 209 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 1: we are discussing at the moment, it's just one of 210 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 1: a range of issues that the Crown Prince has opened 211 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 1: up for the international stage to question. And I wonder John. 212 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:47,679 Speaker 1: Over the last couple of years, the Crown Prince has 213 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:51,079 Speaker 1: gone on a fantastic charm offensive with several leaders across 214 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 1: the developed world and many multinational companies as well. How 215 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:57,199 Speaker 1: much harm has been done with this specific incidents on 216 00:12:57,280 --> 00:13:01,839 Speaker 1: the international stage for Saudi standing well, there is no 217 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:05,959 Speaker 1: doubt that when you have a major conference taking place 218 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 1: literally next week and many of the global leaders businessmen 219 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 1: who are planning to attend, including Jamie Diamond, have decided 220 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 1: not to do so, it is a blow to Saudi 221 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:23,079 Speaker 1: Arabia's image making to the rest of the world, and 222 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 1: that has to be taken quite Seriously, mistakes are made 223 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 1: all the time, and the reform is excellent. The change 224 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:32,880 Speaker 1: that is happening in Saudi Arabia is very much welcomed 225 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:35,920 Speaker 1: over the last few years. But a blunder like this 226 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 1: should not curtail and hold back what Saudi Arabia can attain, 227 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 1: and so I do believe that cooler heads will prevail. John, 228 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. Chiankis Golf Research with the Golf 229 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:54,839 Speaker 1: Research Center Foundation, and now for our interview of the 230 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 1: day within Bloomberg News. Vivian near him is out of 231 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:01,720 Speaker 1: the University in Earth his three and holds court in Riod, 232 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:06,040 Speaker 1: which is a challenging assignment at any time, but evermore 233 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 1: so right now. Vivian joins us from Riad. Vivian, what 234 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:14,000 Speaker 1: has been the reaction of Saudi officials, what has been 235 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 1: the reaction of the domestic and elite media in Saudi 236 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 1: Arabia to these announcements by the Prince, by the King 237 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 1: and by the government. Well up until today we had 238 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 1: seen a very firm narrative that Jamal Hashoji, you know, 239 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 1: as prominent Saudi journalist, to his last scene entering the 240 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 1: Saudi consulate in Istanbul, had left the consulate shortly after 241 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 1: he entered, and they had continued to reiterate that narrative 242 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 1: despite repeated statements from Turkish authorities that they believed that 243 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 1: Hashoji had been murdered inside the consulate. And we've seen, 244 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:52,680 Speaker 1: you know, a great amount of resistance in Saudi media 245 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 1: and a great amount of resistance from Saudia's who say 246 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 1: that they do not trust the Turkish statements, and many 247 00:14:57,920 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 1: people feel that this is an attack on Saudi Arabi 248 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:03,000 Speaker 1: it it can't possibly be true, um, And there's been 249 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 1: quite a lot of pushback. UM. We saw that shift 250 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 1: a bit today with an announcement from an anonymous Saudi 251 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 1: official that the kingdom has actually begun an internal investigation 252 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 1: into the disappearance of hush Ogi. Now, um, I mean 253 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 1: that's a bit subtle, but what it basically shows is 254 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:22,640 Speaker 1: that they have started to look inwards as well, and 255 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:26,200 Speaker 1: so they're considering another narrative that perhaps didn't just walk 256 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 1: out of the consulate shortly after he entered. Vivian, can 257 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 1: you explain for people that may not be following this 258 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 1: as closely as you are or we are, what are 259 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:40,240 Speaker 1: the implications for this for US Saudi relations? Right? I mean, 260 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 1: this has turned out to be a much bigger story 261 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 1: than many people thought it would be. At the start. 262 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 1: You know, Jamal Hushogi was very well known, UM among 263 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 1: people who knew Saudis into New Saudi Arabia. But I 264 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 1: don't think anyone expected that it was going to have 265 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 1: quite so many consequences in the business world and for 266 00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:59,760 Speaker 1: the Saudi economy. UM. And it's testing the really long 267 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:03,120 Speaker 1: running times between Saudi Arabia and UH in the United States. 268 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:06,720 Speaker 1: Was a US resident UM, and the US has been 269 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 1: demanding answers from Saudi Arabia. And meanwhile, there's been quite 270 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 1: a strong reaction from the business community. There's a very 271 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 1: massive investment conference that's coming up in Riad the early 272 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 1: later this month, and we've seen really big names pulling 273 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 1: out of it, including Nami Diamond, UM and Richard Branson 274 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 1: just saying we're not coming Vivian the distinction here. And 275 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 1: I understand the delicacies of you being domiciled in Ria 276 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 1: as we speak. I don't know if you're aware, but 277 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 1: twenty nine minutes ago, the President of the United States, 278 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:37,760 Speaker 1: let me get this accurately. I got to do a 279 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 1: refresh on the computer. Twenty nine minutes ago the President 280 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:46,000 Speaker 1: put out a tweet where it is language from Saudi 281 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 1: Arabia quote to our Saudi Arabian citizen unquote. And you 282 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 1: just stated, as many others have stated, that Mr Kashogi 283 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 1: was an American citizen. Can he be both? Is he 284 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:02,120 Speaker 1: one is the other? Where does that sit within Saudi 285 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 1: Arabia right now? So he was a U s residence 286 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:09,280 Speaker 1: but not a US citizen. UM. He was actually a 287 00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:12,160 Speaker 1: saudiast citizen who had been living in a self opposed 288 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:15,280 Speaker 1: exile for about a year. So he left the kingdom 289 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:18,520 Speaker 1: under fears that he would be detained there or something 290 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:20,600 Speaker 1: like that, and he had moved to the US and 291 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 1: was residing there with within this is his disappearance. What 292 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:28,920 Speaker 1: will the internal probe be? I mean? Is it a 293 00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:31,680 Speaker 1: police probe? Is it a special probe? Do we have 294 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 1: any idea from your reporting of who who will be 295 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 1: the who of the probe? So what we were told 296 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 1: is that the Saudi King Salmon himself ordered over the 297 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 1: weekend that this probe begin and it will be done 298 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 1: by the Saudi public prosecutor, who reports directly to the king. UM. 299 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 1: So we don't know necessarily what that will entail. We 300 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 1: were told that it will be very speedy, that they've 301 00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 1: been told to do as quickly as possible, and that 302 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:01,920 Speaker 1: we could hear some sort of announcement within days of 303 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:09,080 Speaker 1: what they conclude. Vivian, why is the probe itself significant? Well, 304 00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:11,080 Speaker 1: I think it's that bit. But it shows they are 305 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:15,640 Speaker 1: rethinking or reconsidering, um, the previous narrative which they had 306 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 1: really strongly stuck to, which was that absolutely nothing happened, 307 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:23,119 Speaker 1: you know, to at the consulate and we had absolutely 308 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:26,480 Speaker 1: nothing to do with this UM. This disappearance, the fact 309 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:29,359 Speaker 1: that they are sort of, you know, potentially looking inwards, um, 310 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 1: you know, looking for the story what could have happened, 311 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:37,440 Speaker 1: It could show that they might be perhaps willing to 312 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:40,240 Speaker 1: make some sort of partial admission of guilt. Analysts are 313 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 1: saying that could then still absolve higher authorities, or they 314 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 1: could perhaps open up the way for them to blame 315 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:50,280 Speaker 1: rogue elements within the state for anything that might have happened. 316 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 1: It's still up in the air, and it's too early 317 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 1: to say what the fate is of Hashog. They're not 318 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:58,560 Speaker 1: admitting it publicly yet UM or saying anything publicly yet 319 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 1: about that, but it basically is a sign that they 320 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 1: are no longer sticking to this really you know, tense 321 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:08,160 Speaker 1: narrative that he went in and he went out. Vivian 322 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 1: Just finally, you've previously talked written about Turkey and uh 323 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:16,200 Speaker 1: their role in this. Can you just elaborate there a 324 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:20,440 Speaker 1: little bit? Yeah, I mean that's a complicated relationship between 325 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:22,720 Speaker 1: Turkey and Saudi Arabia. Um. They are both you know, 326 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 1: regional powers. They don't always get along. Um. You know, 327 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 1: they do have diplomatic relations. It's not as bad as 328 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:30,879 Speaker 1: it is with other countries in the region. But their 329 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:35,159 Speaker 1: tense you know, Turkey has traditionally supported a particular kind 330 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:38,359 Speaker 1: of political Islam that the Saudi government you know, believes 331 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:42,120 Speaker 1: to be a danger to their security and stability. Um. 332 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:45,200 Speaker 1: And Turkey has sided with a Thought um in this 333 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:47,680 Speaker 1: recent dispute between Thought and the other Gulf states, which 334 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:50,920 Speaker 1: Saudi Arabia also is very offended by. So naturally, when 335 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:53,239 Speaker 1: these kind of you know, anonymous leaks started coming out 336 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:56,920 Speaker 1: from Turkish authorities accusing Saudi Arabia of these very grizzly allegations, 337 00:19:57,359 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 1: a lot of Saudia's were immediately distroy full of that. 338 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:02,720 Speaker 1: You know, Turkey is not our friend. We can't trust 339 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:05,000 Speaker 1: with her thing. Vivian, thank you so much for joining 340 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:07,320 Speaker 1: us today and short notice. Vivian ner Um with that 341 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:09,879 Speaker 1: question the article today for Bloomberg News. I'll get it 342 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:13,880 Speaker 1: out in social on Saudi Arabia setting up some form 343 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:17,320 Speaker 1: of investigation and the disappearance of Mr Kushogi as well. 344 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:25,680 Speaker 1: Vivian ere Um with Bloomberg News in Gary Gensler is 345 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:28,960 Speaker 1: of course we know him as the former head of 346 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:33,600 Speaker 1: the Commodity Futures Trading Commission or better known as the 347 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:37,960 Speaker 1: c f TC, former Under Secretary of the Treasury for 348 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 1: Domestic Finance as well as for financial markets, former Goldman 349 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:48,159 Speaker 1: Sachs executive and currently at the Media Center at the 350 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 1: m I T at the Media Lab. Gary, thanks very 351 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 1: much for your being here and for your patients. We 352 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:57,680 Speaker 1: were talking about debt just before President Donald Trump was speaking, 353 00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:00,760 Speaker 1: and I want to really try to get you to 354 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 1: crystallize that should we be concerned about all of the 355 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 1: government debt, corporate debt and individual debt that has been created. 356 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 1: And it looks like interest rates are at least moving up, 357 00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 1: not down. How's that good for people that are in debt? 358 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:21,720 Speaker 1: I think that the high level of debt that we 359 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:25,320 Speaker 1: have in America these last ten years. It competes with 360 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 1: the high level debt we had in the nineteen twenties, 361 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:30,480 Speaker 1: and so just that it's about three and a half 362 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 1: times the economy. Three sixty percent of our economy was 363 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:40,480 Speaker 1: about seventy trillion dollars of corporate, government and household debt. 364 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 1: We've done some good things in the last ten years. 365 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 1: There's a little less household debt as mortgage debt has 366 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:48,639 Speaker 1: come down after the housing bubble, but we've backfilled and 367 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:51,520 Speaker 1: we have a lot more government debt and corporate debt. 368 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 1: So I think it's something to be aware of. We 369 00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:58,639 Speaker 1: normally have lower levels of debt than we've had the 370 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:03,680 Speaker 1: last ten years. Well, does that make it more concerning 371 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:07,640 Speaker 1: if there were to be an economic downturn or whether 372 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:10,159 Speaker 1: there were to be some shock to the you know, 373 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:15,480 Speaker 1: economic system that then creates a crisis. UH debt does 374 00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:21,080 Speaker 1: provide a lot of opportunity for UH businesses to innovate, 375 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 1: for individuals to buy that home and send their kids 376 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:27,879 Speaker 1: off to college. But we have too high level of 377 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 1: student debt, for instance, And yes, in downturns than debt 378 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:35,880 Speaker 1: cuts the other way, it's great on the upside, it's 379 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:39,119 Speaker 1: rough on the downside, Gary, I want to talk about 380 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:41,680 Speaker 1: the golden sex management. If you don't want to answer this, 381 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 1: I understand that you may want to step aside here. 382 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:45,359 Speaker 1: But you are one of the few people on the 383 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 1: planet that have actually lived the shift from banking m 384 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 1: and A over to thick over to trading and all. 385 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:54,400 Speaker 1: You're one of the very few people it's actually done 386 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:56,760 Speaker 1: with a lot of people blather about but then on 387 00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:59,479 Speaker 1: the clue what they're talking about. How big a shift 388 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 1: is from the smooth banking world over to rough and 389 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:06,920 Speaker 1: trumble trading where you could enjoy watching the bid walk 390 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 1: away in seconds. Well, there is a difference. I started 391 00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:12,720 Speaker 1: in the merger and acquisition area at Coman Sacks and 392 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:14,520 Speaker 1: then I was honored to be asked to go over 393 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:17,639 Speaker 1: to the fixed income and currency trading. What do they 394 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:20,200 Speaker 1: take you into a room and say we've got bad news, Gar, 395 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,359 Speaker 1: How does that work? No? No, there was there was 396 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,400 Speaker 1: a time when, uh, there was. Some of us younger 397 00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:29,480 Speaker 1: partners were asked, would we be willing to take the 398 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,959 Speaker 1: risk and move around? But you're right, the time horizons 399 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 1: are shorter a merger transaction you might be negotiating Vermonts 400 00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:40,879 Speaker 1: and the markets move in seconds or nano seconds, and 401 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:47,960 Speaker 1: so um uh there is a different uh time horizon. Um. 402 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 1: But the people that when I was there twenty plus 403 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 1: years ago, the people on the trading side were excellent 404 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:58,639 Speaker 1: and they they allowed me to distill the modern the 405 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 1: modest uproar of Mr Salomon taking over and he's not 406 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:05,959 Speaker 1: like those guys. How do you how do you distill 407 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:09,639 Speaker 1: that well? In any firm, even if it's not a 408 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:13,480 Speaker 1: wall street, there's multiple cultures and in what you're highlighting 409 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:16,480 Speaker 1: is there's the trading culture and the banking culture, and 410 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:20,240 Speaker 1: sometimes it ebbs and flows. And even at Godman Sachs 411 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:24,360 Speaker 1: when I was there, it was initially the bankers John Weinberg, 412 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:28,200 Speaker 1: John Whitehead and led the firm, and then Bob Rubin 413 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:32,040 Speaker 1: and others who are excellent from the trading side, you know, 414 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:35,560 Speaker 1: ascended and and help lead the firm and guide the firm. 415 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:39,359 Speaker 1: So it ebbs and flows. Gary Yes, I mentioned in 416 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:42,920 Speaker 1: the introduction your senior advisor and director at the m 417 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,959 Speaker 1: I T Media Lab. Plus you're a senior lecture at 418 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:49,919 Speaker 1: the Sloane School of Management at m i T. Your course, 419 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:54,600 Speaker 1: you teach a course on blockchain technology, is it standing 420 00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 1: room only? Sometimes it's blockchain and money money, and uh 421 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,160 Speaker 1: M I T community is very engaged in this subject. 422 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:05,880 Speaker 1: Of course, it's M I T. And we're really trying 423 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:08,720 Speaker 1: to find ground truth how much of this technology that 424 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:13,120 Speaker 1: underlines bitcoin can really be used to change the world 425 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 1: of finance or medical records or supply chains and in 426 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,280 Speaker 1: just quickly in the class, in the course that you teach, 427 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:23,399 Speaker 1: is there one thing you want or recommend that the 428 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:26,600 Speaker 1: students take away from so that they can further their understanding. 429 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:30,120 Speaker 1: Because it's a topic with a lot of supposed experts, 430 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,399 Speaker 1: So I'm really trying to teach ground truths that they 431 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,919 Speaker 1: have critical reasoning skills to sort of separate the hype 432 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:41,320 Speaker 1: and the maximalists that say will solve every problem and say, well, 433 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:45,879 Speaker 1: how will this actually be applied, this database technology to 434 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:49,879 Speaker 1: move something of value money on the internet without a 435 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:53,480 Speaker 1: central bank or commercial bank. How how can that technology 436 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:57,160 Speaker 1: actually be used as a catalyst for change and ultimately 437 00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,640 Speaker 1: for them to be entrepreneurs and start their businesses. Um 438 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:04,639 Speaker 1: So critical reasoning skills. This has been wonderful. Thank you 439 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:06,800 Speaker 1: so much, Thank you so much for having me here. 440 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:09,639 Speaker 1: Wide ranging. I thought he was gonna say that the 441 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:12,440 Speaker 1: blockchain technology makes it easier for the money to leave 442 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:16,680 Speaker 1: Tom Keane's pocket and got over the blood chain. We 443 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 1: want to protect Tom. No, it'll be it's a huge debate, 444 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:22,480 Speaker 1: won't Gary Gunster, Thank you so much. I know you're 445 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:27,240 Speaker 1: off to you now here at Bloomer the former chairing 446 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:29,720 Speaker 1: of the CFTC, among other duties, and of course this 447 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 1: public service to the Nation and Treasury a few years ago. 448 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:38,480 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg Surveillance podcast. Subscribe and 449 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:43,960 Speaker 1: listen to interviews on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, or whichever podcast 450 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 1: platform you prefer. I'm on Twitter at Tom Keane before 451 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:52,520 Speaker 1: the podcast. You can always catch us worldwide. I'm Bloomberg Radio.