1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vandercamp. I'm a mother of five, 2 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:10,240 Speaker 1: an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah Hartunger. 3 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 1: I'm a mother of three, a practicing physician and blogger. 4 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 1: On the side, we are two working parents who love 5 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 1: our careers and our families. Welcome to best of both worlds. 6 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, 7 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:25,800 Speaker 1: and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping 8 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:28,360 Speaker 1: out long term career goals. We want you to get 9 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 1: the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds. 10 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:37,520 Speaker 1: This is Laura. This is episode two hundred and eighty nine, 11 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 1: airing in mid February of twenty twenty three. Sarah is 12 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 1: going to be interviewing Nick Sonenberg, who is an expert 13 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:47,600 Speaker 1: on business systems and organization. He's the author of the 14 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:50,040 Speaker 1: book Come Up for Air, which is how to stop 15 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 1: drowning and over Work. And we are big fans of 16 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 1: not drowning and overwork, so looking forward to that. But first, 17 00:00:57,520 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 1: a little bit of a best of both worlds announcement 18 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 1: before we get into the topic of not doing overwork. Sarah, 19 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:07,280 Speaker 1: you are recording in a slightly different position than you 20 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 1: normally are. Yes, our loyal listeners will remember that Laura 21 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:16,840 Speaker 1: and I discussed that we both record in our closets 22 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 1: in very uncomfortable positions. I was using my husband's end 23 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:23,440 Speaker 1: table and a chair, so I was always kind of 24 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:25,960 Speaker 1: twisted and my legs didn't fit under said table, and 25 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:28,120 Speaker 1: my microphone was often like falling off because it wasn't 26 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:31,840 Speaker 1: a very large table, and Laura was on the floor 27 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 1: and also mentioning a lot of back pain. So we 28 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 1: felt like it was probably time to see what we 29 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 1: can do with these small spaces. Closets are excellent for 30 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 1: recording because you can have lots of clothes in there 31 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:47,800 Speaker 1: that are absorbing sound and you can block out a 32 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 1: lot of outside sound. But so our solution was we 33 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 1: shoved tiny desks into our closet, not even that tiny actually, 34 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 1: so I wouldn't say I have a huge closet, but 35 00:01:57,720 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 1: it's like a smallish walk in closet, and I was 36 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 1: able to shove and Ikia desk to the back a 37 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 1: full on chair. We do not have an outlet in 38 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 1: this closet, but it's okay because I'm able to stretch 39 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:11,519 Speaker 1: the cord around to the outlet right outside the closet door. 40 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 1: And I am so comfortable. I'm so excited, Like I 41 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:17,680 Speaker 1: feel like this is a new era in podcasting for me. 42 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:23,640 Speaker 1: We are finally taking ourselves seriously after lo these many 43 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 1: years of recording. Yeah, I'm excited to not be sitting 44 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:29,239 Speaker 1: on the floor. Mine is more of a makeshift kind 45 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:31,399 Speaker 1: of thing. I just I was like, well, I don't 46 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 1: even want to go like find a desk. It's a 47 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: small space anyway, so it would have been hard to 48 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:40,320 Speaker 1: do a traditional desk, even though, like IKI, a small one. However, 49 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 1: there's lots of random material around this house. I found 50 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 1: a what must be an old like dining table leaf 51 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 1: I think that the previous owner must have abandoned somewhere, 52 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:53,800 Speaker 1: and then another like shelf that was also abandoned. I 53 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 1: stacked those on top of these kind of magazine file containers. 54 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 1: I don't know if anyone knows is what they're like 55 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 1: from pottery barn or something. They've kind of tan colored anyway, 56 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 1: two of them with the two wooden things stacked on 57 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:12,240 Speaker 1: top of it. I'm sitting on a bench that was 58 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 1: my bench for my old keyboard, and it's working. It's 59 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:21,359 Speaker 1: sort of the right height, I guess, and I haven't 60 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:25,919 Speaker 1: entirely figured out the microphone placement thing. Yet my microphone 61 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:29,240 Speaker 1: for before Breakfast is on one side of where i'd 62 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 1: put my computer, so I'm kind of looking back this 63 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 1: way for that and the microphone that I used for 64 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 1: Best of both worlds because it works differently with going 65 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:39,839 Speaker 1: through the laptop. It's all complicated anyway. I've had bad 66 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 1: sound quality attempting to do switching microphones. But it's on 67 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 1: the left side, so you know, I turned my head 68 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:50,840 Speaker 1: backway and forth. It'd be nice to have a microphone 69 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 1: like right over the laptop, but I haven't quite figured 70 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 1: out how to make that work yet. One of these 71 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 1: that will perhaps be the next project. Well, I didn't 72 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: realize you had like figured it out, a solution, a 73 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 1: creative solution, like more and more so than me. And 74 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 1: by the way, I didn't even buy this desk. It 75 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 1: was just like in our bedroom and I just had 76 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 1: to drag it into the closet. That's right. Sometimes you 77 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 1: know it's funny. We it was in our Pebbles in 78 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:16,719 Speaker 1: the Shoe part of that episode of Things. We were 79 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:19,040 Speaker 1: upgrading or not upgrading, as the case may be, and 80 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 1: we were talking about how something can be annoying you 81 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:25,600 Speaker 1: for a long time, and the solution can be very 82 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:28,240 Speaker 1: very easy. Like I mean, in Sarah's case, she was 83 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:31,599 Speaker 1: literally moving a desk a couple of feet and she 84 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:34,159 Speaker 1: just hadn't done it. I don't know. It's an interesting 85 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:35,720 Speaker 1: question why we don't do it. I don't know. I 86 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:38,479 Speaker 1: think both of us have personalities that we have a 87 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:42,719 Speaker 1: very strong ability to just make do with whatever the 88 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 1: situation is, which you know has its upsides, probably has 89 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 1: its downsides as well, in the sense of my chronic 90 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 1: back pain and Sarah trying to figure out how to 91 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 1: not knock her microphone off. But here we are, so 92 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:59,479 Speaker 1: yay yay, speaking of making things better. So Sarah does 93 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 1: an interview here with nick Son and bar about coming 94 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:05,479 Speaker 1: up for air. Do you read a lot of business books, Sarah? 95 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 1: I feel like I didn't used to. I mean, I 96 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 1: have always loved the personal development sphere kind of unapologetically, 97 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 1: whereas probably where I discovered you in the first place. 98 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:19,359 Speaker 1: So I mean, I have no qualms about that, but 99 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 1: I kind of steered away from those that were more 100 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 1: business y just because I didn't feel like they applied 101 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 1: to me necessarily. But I think once I officially went 102 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 1: part time and kind of gave myself permission to think 103 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:31,240 Speaker 1: of my creative work as a more legitimate business. I've 104 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 1: been more drawn to those. I recently really enjoyed Free 105 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 1: Time by Jenny Blake, and I have on my next 106 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:42,719 Speaker 1: to my desk a book called Life Changing Workshops, which 107 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 1: I don't know if it's good or not because I 108 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:45,719 Speaker 1: haven't read it yet. Because I'm hoping that I can 109 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:49,159 Speaker 1: make my workshops life changing, so that would be good. 110 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:50,719 Speaker 1: I was drawn to come up for air because I 111 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 1: felt like it was a topic that you know, it 112 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:56,840 Speaker 1: was really an emphasis on efficiency, but it sounded like 113 00:05:56,839 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 1: it would be relevant for all types of environments, those 114 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 1: of us who work in a field like medicine that's 115 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 1: more action oriented, as well as those in small businesses 116 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:07,719 Speaker 1: or you know, even solo proprietorships or those who work 117 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:10,040 Speaker 1: in the corporate world. So it felt like it kind 118 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:13,719 Speaker 1: of crossed. It wasn't specific to any one of those audiences. Yeah, 119 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:16,039 Speaker 1: because I mean you were mentioning there's some challenges that 120 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 1: we all deal with. I mean, you know, regardless of 121 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:19,680 Speaker 1: what kind of work you're doing, it's how do you 122 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 1: communicate efficiently? Right? And he talks about that and systematizing. 123 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:27,559 Speaker 1: I guess that was what I took away from this. Yeah, 124 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:30,720 Speaker 1: a lot of systemization, like you know, making sure you 125 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 1: capture the work you create in a logical and very 126 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:37,240 Speaker 1: organized way so that you don't end up having to 127 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:40,080 Speaker 1: reinvent the wheel ways to have effective meetings. Was a 128 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 1: really nice section. He goes through email and we have 129 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:46,040 Speaker 1: a lot of aligned philosophies there. So yeah, it was useful. 130 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 1: I think the book is really interesting in the conversation 131 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 1: we had was fun. So I think you guys will 132 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:52,480 Speaker 1: enjoy this episode. Awesome. Well, let's go ahead and hear 133 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:54,279 Speaker 1: what Nick has to say about how we can all 134 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:57,359 Speaker 1: come up for air. Well, I am so excited to 135 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 1: welcome Nick Sonnenberg on the Best of both worlds Old. 136 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:03,360 Speaker 1: He is an entrepreneur, a writer, and a founder CEO 137 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:07,279 Speaker 1: of Leverage, which is an leading operational efficiency consultancy, and 138 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 1: he also just published a fascinating book called Come Up 139 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 1: for Air, what he calls a practical guide to go 140 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 1: from drowning and work to freeing up an extra business 141 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 1: day per week for everyone on your team. Welcome Nick, 142 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 1: Thanks for having me on the show. So my first 143 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 1: question to you is why did you decide to write 144 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:28,119 Speaker 1: Come Up for Air. I mean, we all know work 145 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:32,239 Speaker 1: has its issues, but there are a great deal many 146 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 1: business books out there with different philosophies and promises from 147 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:39,120 Speaker 1: the four hour work week to know anything beyond that. 148 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 1: So I'm curious, like, what made you feel like you 149 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 1: had something really new and exciting to say? What were 150 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 1: you trying to accomplish with Come Up for Air? Yeah, no, 151 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 1: it's a great question. Well, for one, I felt that 152 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 1: the world needed a book like this. There are books 153 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:58,720 Speaker 1: like for Our Work Week or Getting Things Done, and 154 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 1: those were kind of the classic, but those are more 155 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:05,119 Speaker 1: individual productivity books. Right There really hasn't yet been any 156 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 1: kind of impactful book around how teams or organizations can 157 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 1: be productive. And it's a nuance, but it's a very 158 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 1: distinct difference between individual productivity and team productivity. And I 159 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 1: wrote the book for myself and my team so that 160 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 1: I could have kind of a guidebook for them on 161 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 1: how to operate. I wrote it because ultimately my mission 162 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 1: is I want to save millions of hours of people's time, 163 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:31,840 Speaker 1: and I want people to be able to work on 164 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:34,600 Speaker 1: things that give them joy or tap into their unique ability. 165 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 1: And I think that this book can really help with that. 166 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 1: And also I know what it's like to be drowning 167 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:45,080 Speaker 1: and work. My story is we grew very quickly in 168 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 1: the early days, and one day my business partner came 169 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:50,839 Speaker 1: up to me while we were working in a coworking space, 170 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:53,200 Speaker 1: tap me on the shoulder and said he's leaving. He 171 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 1: didn't give me two weeks or two days notice. He 172 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 1: gave me two minutes notice. And at that point, when 173 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 1: we separated the way we ran the company, he was 174 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:04,320 Speaker 1: people facing and I was non people facing. So it 175 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:06,640 Speaker 1: was a complete disaster because no one knew who I 176 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 1: was because the way we had split it up, and 177 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:13,000 Speaker 1: early on we were a freelancer marketplace, not operational efficiency 178 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:15,920 Speaker 1: consulting and training like we do now. But during that time, 179 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 1: and I don't need to go into the details, but 180 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 1: it was very difficult. We lost forty percent of revenue 181 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:24,720 Speaker 1: in a three month period. More than half of our 182 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:27,680 Speaker 1: team members left. Also in that period, before I know what, 183 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:29,959 Speaker 1: I'm cashing out my four oh one K, my dad's 184 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:32,000 Speaker 1: taking a second mortgage on the house to loan us 185 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:35,560 Speaker 1: money for payroll, and you know, there I am kind 186 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 1: of the only person now running the company, and we 187 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:40,600 Speaker 1: had one hundred and fifty contractors on the team at 188 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 1: that point, and I had to make a decision do 189 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:44,840 Speaker 1: I bankrupt the company or do I try to clean 190 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:47,200 Speaker 1: up the mistakes. We had done some things right because 191 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 1: we grew really quickly, but we had all this operational 192 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 1: debt that we were sitting on that was making it 193 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 1: very hard and very complex, and so ultimately I decided 194 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:58,079 Speaker 1: to stick it out. You know, we owed about three 195 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 1: quarters of million dollars of debt to people. I thought 196 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 1: it was wrong to screw them out of it, and 197 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:04,560 Speaker 1: I did see a path to cleaning things up, and 198 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 1: so over time, I just started late nights, seven days 199 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 1: a week cleaning this company up, and I just started 200 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:13,120 Speaker 1: seeing kind of what it was taking to clean it up. 201 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:15,200 Speaker 1: You know that you we needed to clean up how 202 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 1: we communicated as a team. I wasn't able a couple 203 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 1: of clicks to know who was working on what. So 204 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:23,719 Speaker 1: I needed to clean up the planning. And then I 205 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:26,440 Speaker 1: knew that we had all this knowledge. I'd already spent 206 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 1: a lot of time documenting my ex business partner's knowledge. 207 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 1: Otherwise we definitely wouldn't have not survived that. But I 208 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:37,640 Speaker 1: started seeing this pattern of these three buckets, and people 209 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 1: started reaching out to me asking me to consult them. 210 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 1: And I worked with Tony Robbins, I worked with poopery, 211 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 1: I worked with small find I've worked with a bunch 212 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 1: of doctors' offices. I worked with financial advisors. And it 213 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 1: didn't matter if you were a small medical practice or 214 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:56,319 Speaker 1: you were Tony Robbins. Everyone had kind of very similar issues. 215 00:10:56,360 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 1: You needed to clean up how you communicated, how you planned, 216 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 1: and then all the resource and so ultimately the core 217 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 1: of leverage started being training and consulting on those things. 218 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:10,560 Speaker 1: And ultimately the pattern was just so strong. This stuff 219 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 1: was helping just everyone, regardless of size or industry. So 220 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 1: I decided that a book would be a great way 221 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:19,439 Speaker 1: to get the message out and help a lot of 222 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:23,720 Speaker 1: people stop drowning. And work totally makes sense, drowning work, 223 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:26,320 Speaker 1: And I don't want that for anyone. Yes, no, that 224 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:28,439 Speaker 1: totally makes sense. And I say that as someone who 225 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 1: is definitely is a fan of like your Tim Ferriss 226 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:34,920 Speaker 1: and David Allen, especially a man that I like, you know, 227 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 1: I've read his books like many many times, so really 228 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 1: interesting to hear how like you're right, your stuff goes 229 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 1: from the individual to how do we make a system 230 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:47,760 Speaker 1: that doesn't break individuals and that can succeed more long term. 231 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:50,840 Speaker 1: So I wanted to talk about communication first because that 232 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 1: was your first like piece of the trio, And my 233 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:58,440 Speaker 1: question was not necessarily about how we can best communicate 234 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 1: because personally, yeah, I feel like I have a fairly 235 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:04,239 Speaker 1: well honed sense of like when should we use synchronous 236 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:06,920 Speaker 1: methods and when should we use asynchronous matches? Although I 237 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:09,079 Speaker 1: can have you review with our audience what those means. 238 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:12,400 Speaker 1: But my real question is how do we get others 239 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:16,720 Speaker 1: on board with this without coming off as curmudgeonly or 240 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:20,839 Speaker 1: unpleasant Because my personal pet peeve and my husband will 241 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:24,200 Speaker 1: say that I'm probably overly sensitive to this is like 242 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 1: I get very irritated when people use synchronous methods for 243 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 1: things that really should be asynchronous. And I think it's 244 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 1: very disrespectful because it's a way of saying, Hey, my 245 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:35,120 Speaker 1: time's important, because I want this info for you right now, 246 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:36,640 Speaker 1: but I don't care what you're doing. I'm going to 247 00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:40,199 Speaker 1: interrupt you. So I guess, A, what are those things 248 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 1: for the audience? And B how do we help others 249 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 1: to get on board with appropriate usage without making any 250 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:50,320 Speaker 1: It's a great question. So let's just clarify for the listeners. 251 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 1: The difference between synchronous just means you're doing it simultaneously 252 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 1: at this moment in time, right. So like this conversation 253 00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 1: right now is synchronous, like we put time, I'm on 254 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 1: our calendar to hop on this video call and we're 255 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:08,680 Speaker 1: recording this live, right Versus asynchronous is I put something 256 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:12,840 Speaker 1: somewhere and when you have time later you go and 257 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:15,440 Speaker 1: look in that drawer and you go and look at it, right. 258 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:20,960 Speaker 1: So asynchronous just means there's kind of this I'm going 259 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:22,800 Speaker 1: to put this here and then when you have time 260 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:25,080 Speaker 1: go and look at it. And so there's a time 261 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 1: and a place for both. For example, if you have 262 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:32,240 Speaker 1: a performance issue with a team member, you don't want 263 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:38,320 Speaker 1: to asynchronously tell them over Slack or email or something like, hey, 264 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:41,480 Speaker 1: you're doing a really bad job and you know maybe 265 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:44,320 Speaker 1: we're going to fire you right like, that requires a 266 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 1: live conversation where it can be both ways. And also 267 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 1: facial expression and tonality and all those things make a difference. 268 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 1: So there are times and places where synchronous is great, 269 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 1: or you want to do a brainstorming session and it 270 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 1: does require all this back and forth kind of wrap 271 00:13:59,880 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 1: it back and forth. That's great for synchronous, but there's 272 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:06,680 Speaker 1: a lot of things that could be asynchronously. Hey, whenever 273 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:10,400 Speaker 1: you have time, I need this report, or when you 274 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:13,320 Speaker 1: have time, take a look at this PDF that I 275 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:15,080 Speaker 1: put together and tell me if it looks good, right, 276 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:18,440 Speaker 1: or I have an idea for something like that's not 277 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 1: super urgent. And so I think it's the responsibility of 278 00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:25,560 Speaker 1: the business owner and entrepreneur to set boundaries and also 279 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:30,200 Speaker 1: set up systems so that people can be asynchronous. For example, 280 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:33,840 Speaker 1: we have a policy at Leverage that if something's not urgent, 281 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:37,800 Speaker 1: don't slack it, meaning like don't like peing someone right now, 282 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 1: add it to next week's agenda. We use a tool 283 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 1: called a sauna to house those agendas. And you were 284 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 1: just talking about David Allen. He's got a great quote 285 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 1: that your brain it's for having ideas, not holding ideas. 286 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 1: So you need to give people places to put things. 287 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 1: Otherwise they need to dump it out of their head. 288 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 1: And so whatever is their mode of doing that, which 289 00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:59,040 Speaker 1: might be synchronous, is how they'll do it. So you 290 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 1: need to give them a framework and a place to 291 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 1: dump those things. So you need to show them, hey, 292 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 1: we use agendas at this company, and you know we 293 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 1: have also an sop or a policy that if it's 294 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 1: not urgent, it can wait till next week and we 295 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 1: have a meeting. Go and add it to this agenda. 296 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 1: You also need to have in your culture that you 297 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 1: run meetings with agendas at that point though, so you 298 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:24,680 Speaker 1: need to have kind of some standard operating procedures that 299 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 1: you tell people upfront during the onboarding and training when 300 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 1: you hire them. You have to reinforce it. You have 301 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 1: to give tough love when people fall off the wagon, 302 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 1: which inevitably they will, that you kindly point them in 303 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:40,400 Speaker 1: the direction of you know, in the future. This is 304 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:43,800 Speaker 1: how we've all aligned on doing things, and it's a 305 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 1: never ending process. Like it's constant reinforcement. It's not going 306 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 1: to be perfect, but you know, you can get pretty close. 307 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 1: I love the emphasis on make sure you have a 308 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 1: really good bucket for people to put those things, because 309 00:15:56,840 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 1: I think sometimes my mistake is not maybe emphasizing too much, 310 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:03,160 Speaker 1: like the ough that didn't need to be a text, 311 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 1: but okay, well where does it need to be right, Like, 312 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 1: please add it to my staff messages, I promise I 313 00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 1: check those every single day. I clear them out every 314 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 1: single day so it won't get missed, to make sure 315 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 1: you clarify exactly where that message should go if it 316 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 1: should not be in a synchronous fashion. So that's a 317 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:21,360 Speaker 1: really really good point. All right. Email so speaking of 318 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 1: your brain is for having ideas and not holding them. 319 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 1: I think email is for processing inputs and not collecting them. 320 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe I'm just in a very David 321 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 1: Allen esque mode today, but you do talk about inbox 322 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:36,760 Speaker 1: zero in your book, and I love it, And in fact, 323 00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 1: you even said like, oh, you can have twenty things 324 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 1: in there because they're like your active things. And I'm like, no, 325 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:43,520 Speaker 1: I actually believe in zero, like getting to actual zero, 326 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:45,520 Speaker 1: because I still don't want to collect them. They're like 327 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:49,040 Speaker 1: they probably belong somewhere else. So talk a little bit 328 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 1: about that, and has that been a challenge to, like 329 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:56,320 Speaker 1: you supervise many individuals in your company. Have you been 330 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 1: able to help them achieve inbox zero? Is there a 331 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 1: lot of pushback? Why is it so unpopular as an idea? 332 00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:06,480 Speaker 1: I mean, wellt the if you don't know the concept 333 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:10,280 Speaker 1: inbox zero basically just is a methodology, so that when 334 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:13,879 Speaker 1: you look at your email and you're managing your email, 335 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:17,399 Speaker 1: you have I consider it to be not exactly zero, 336 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:21,200 Speaker 1: but like twenty thirty something manageable. And I don't distinguish 337 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:24,639 Speaker 1: between read or unread. It's any email in your inbox, 338 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 1: you know. Most people have tens of thousands, or I've 339 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 1: seen hundreds of thousands, And the benefit of it is 340 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:34,080 Speaker 1: it can save you so much time and stress looking 341 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:38,199 Speaker 1: at and also not just time stress, but there's opportunities 342 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 1: that I see every single time. Every single time my 343 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 1: team works with someone on this, they always discover some 344 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 1: gem of an email that slips through the cracks because 345 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 1: they just don't have a good system to make sure 346 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:55,679 Speaker 1: that they're you know, filing and dealing with all their 347 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 1: email properly. And email is a tricky one because you've 348 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:02,120 Speaker 1: been us using it for decades. It's the only tool 349 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:04,639 Speaker 1: that's been around for decades. Slack and Asana, notion and 350 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:06,399 Speaker 1: all these other tools that I talked about in the 351 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:10,359 Speaker 1: book are all relatively new. So people have adopted bad 352 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:13,720 Speaker 1: behavior with email. A lot of people are sensitive about 353 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:15,440 Speaker 1: how they use their email and think that they've got 354 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 1: a good system, and so I think in general it's 355 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 1: important that people have a student mindset and that they're 356 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:24,879 Speaker 1: always open to a better way. And as long as 357 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:27,919 Speaker 1: people have that mindset and they kind of follow are 358 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:30,800 Speaker 1: open minded to reading kind of my RAD system reply 359 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 1: archive deffer that I lay out in the book, I 360 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:36,960 Speaker 1: can guarantee that you'll like that better than pretty much 361 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:39,679 Speaker 1: any system that you're following. I've just seen. We've just 362 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 1: done this thousands of times and seen the impact of 363 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:45,720 Speaker 1: three to five hours a week on average that you 364 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:49,120 Speaker 1: can save if you actually process email properly. I think 365 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:50,919 Speaker 1: that the most important thing is to have a student 366 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:53,680 Speaker 1: mindset and to always be looking for a better way 367 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:57,240 Speaker 1: with email. People have been using it for decades. They 368 00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 1: think that they've got a good system, but vperience. I've 369 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:02,600 Speaker 1: just seen three to five hours a week back per 370 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:06,879 Speaker 1: person when they follow the RAD system. So that stands 371 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 1: for a reply archive and defer. And it's the benefit 372 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:15,560 Speaker 1: though of email versus cleaning up other tools. One, it's 373 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 1: a tool that's the most commonly used tool that everyone 374 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 1: uses constantly. You can save a ton of time quickly, 375 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:25,639 Speaker 1: and it doesn't require that much training, Like in a 376 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:28,679 Speaker 1: few hours, you can get your email under control and 377 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 1: probably The biggest difference is all these other collaboration tools 378 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:37,719 Speaker 1: require everyone to be on the same page. Like take Slack, 379 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:40,359 Speaker 1: take us on, and take these tools. People need to 380 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 1: be using it kind of in a similar way for 381 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 1: it to work. Like if you don't know how to 382 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 1: use slack, or you don't know when to put something 383 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 1: in a channel, or you don't know when to use it, 384 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 1: I'm not going to get that much benefit. It's like 385 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:54,399 Speaker 1: what's the value of a cell phone. If I'm the 386 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:56,119 Speaker 1: only one that owns the cell phone, I have no 387 00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:58,639 Speaker 1: one to talk to. But with email, even if you 388 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 1: don't use email properly, and we're on the same team, 389 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:03,640 Speaker 1: but I use it properly, I will still get the benefit. 390 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:06,960 Speaker 1: And so when you show people the benefit, like everyone 391 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:09,920 Speaker 1: wants to save time. No one likes to be overworked 392 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:13,880 Speaker 1: and overstressed. So you know, once you kind of kind 393 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:17,120 Speaker 1: of promise them that and showed them very quickly kind 394 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:19,080 Speaker 1: of what that feeling is like to look at a 395 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 1: clean inbox with nothing in it, It's a pretty easy sell. 396 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 1: I love it. Well, We're going to take a very 397 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:27,440 Speaker 1: quick ad break and be back to talk about meetings. 398 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:43,919 Speaker 1: Speaking of efficiency and saving time, all right, we are back, 399 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:46,719 Speaker 1: and you had a really nice section and come up 400 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:53,280 Speaker 1: for air on meetings that really emphasized exactly how expensive 401 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:57,320 Speaker 1: they are from a financial and time standpoint, and ways 402 00:20:57,359 --> 00:20:59,440 Speaker 1: in which we can make sure that not to use 403 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:03,119 Speaker 1: your company names, we can leverage that time effectively to 404 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 1: really make the most of it. So can you talk 405 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:08,920 Speaker 1: a little bit about your best practices for meetings? Yeah, 406 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:12,000 Speaker 1: I mean meetings is another massive expense, similar to email. 407 00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:14,880 Speaker 1: I mean, when you think about how much a meeting costs, 408 00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 1: you take your you know, all the hourly rates of 409 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 1: everyone in that meeting, times the length of that meeting. 410 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:23,959 Speaker 1: It's one of the biggest expenses in businesses. I think 411 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 1: I was reading a stat that it was like, I 412 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:29,439 Speaker 1: don't know, one hundred billion dollars or something worth of 413 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:32,439 Speaker 1: meetings last year. It's something crazy fifty billion or one 414 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:36,439 Speaker 1: hundred billion. It's something on that order of magnitude. And 415 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:38,919 Speaker 1: it's not that hard to clean it up. If you 416 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 1: don't know what your hourly rate is, just take your 417 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:44,400 Speaker 1: salary and divide it by approximately two thousand. There's two 418 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:48,399 Speaker 1: thousand hours in a year that you work roughly, and 419 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:50,720 Speaker 1: so if you're a one hundred dollars an hour person. 420 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:52,679 Speaker 1: Someone else is a fifty dollars an hour person, and 421 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:54,960 Speaker 1: the two of you do an hour call, it's one 422 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:57,639 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty dollars call. So the more people you 423 00:21:57,640 --> 00:21:59,960 Speaker 1: add to it, the longer the meeting is, the more expense. 424 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:02,159 Speaker 1: If it is, so, it's important that you get the 425 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:05,600 Speaker 1: most out of those times. It's just too easy now 426 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:08,720 Speaker 1: to just throw things on the calendar and lose track 427 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:12,399 Speaker 1: of actually how expensive those calls are. And so the 428 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:15,080 Speaker 1: ways to reduce a meeting reduce the number of people, 429 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:17,879 Speaker 1: reduce the frequency. You know, does this meeting need to 430 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 1: be weekly? Could it be bi weekly or monthly? Does 431 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:23,560 Speaker 1: it even need to happen in the first place? You 432 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:25,800 Speaker 1: know a lot of meeting. Could this be done asynchronously? 433 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:28,879 Speaker 1: Does it have an agenda? You know, you want to 434 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:31,600 Speaker 1: make sure that the meetings have an agenda. You're accomplishing 435 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:34,960 Speaker 1: what you need to accomplish, you're documenting decisions, you're documenting 436 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:38,840 Speaker 1: action items. And then lastly, can you just reduce the 437 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:41,520 Speaker 1: length of the meeting? And so there's this kind of 438 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 1: there's this other interesting concept where that I talk about 439 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:47,720 Speaker 1: in the book, which is it's not just about saving 440 00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 1: time it's about optimizing time and how time isn't linear. 441 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:54,200 Speaker 1: That nine am on a Monday is way more valuable 442 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:57,000 Speaker 1: than six pm on a Friday after one hundred zoom 443 00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 1: calls for the week and you're in the back of 444 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:01,639 Speaker 1: an uber and you don't have your your laptop with you, 445 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:05,240 Speaker 1: So that nine am on Monday time slot might be 446 00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:07,679 Speaker 1: the most valuable time slot of the whole week. You 447 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 1: maybe have relaxed for the weekend, woke up early, worked out, 448 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 1: feel great, and your brain's at a full horse power 449 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 1: at nine am on a Monday, and so you want 450 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 1: to make sure that you're maximizing your calendar and your 451 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:24,200 Speaker 1: precious time around when your brain is at full horse power. 452 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:26,960 Speaker 1: So even if you could reduce an hour long meeting 453 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:30,480 Speaker 1: from nine to ten on a Monday to forty five minutes, 454 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 1: and you make it from nine to nine to forty five, 455 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:35,240 Speaker 1: that fifteen minutes that you're fring up might be the 456 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:37,959 Speaker 1: equivalent of two hours like in terms of like what 457 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 1: you can accomplish with how fresh your brain is. So 458 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 1: try to think about can you reduce the length of 459 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:46,960 Speaker 1: the meetings? Is there anything that you guys are talking 460 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:49,640 Speaker 1: about that could have been done asynchronously. So I'm not 461 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:52,320 Speaker 1: saying that you need to cancel the meeting, but if 462 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:54,680 Speaker 1: there's fifteen minutes of the meeting that people are just 463 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:59,200 Speaker 1: kind of giving report outs, you know, showing some document 464 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 1: that they've put together and explaining it, that portion of 465 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:06,600 Speaker 1: the meeting could have been done asynchronously, and then on Friday, 466 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 1: in the back of an uber, when you're not doing 467 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 1: anything that great, you could watch the video of those 468 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 1: report outs. You could have a policy where people have 469 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:17,199 Speaker 1: to watch it in advance of the Monday meeting. And 470 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:20,679 Speaker 1: now come Monday, you've just freed up fifteen minutes a 471 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,719 Speaker 1: very valuable time for everyone that now they can go 472 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:27,480 Speaker 1: and do higher level work. And now you're better utilizing 473 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:29,199 Speaker 1: the back of that uber where you're not going to 474 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:31,960 Speaker 1: be doing anything that great anyway. And it doesn't have 475 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:33,359 Speaker 1: to be the back of an uber. You could be 476 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:35,560 Speaker 1: maybe you want to go for a walk and get 477 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 1: some vitamin D or something. I don't know, but thinking 478 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:41,680 Speaker 1: about not just saving time, but optimizing time and what 479 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:46,280 Speaker 1: parts of your meeting could be asynchronous. It requires no tools, 480 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:48,159 Speaker 1: it's not that hard of a concept to wrap your 481 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:51,800 Speaker 1: head around, and it can make a significant impact. Totally 482 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:55,119 Speaker 1: makes sense. I also, I mean this is very adjacent 483 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:58,640 Speaker 1: to that, But your discussion of workloads and calculating that 484 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:02,240 Speaker 1: and looking at how many hours people actually have to 485 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:05,960 Speaker 1: do work when you subtract the time spent with admin 486 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 1: and time spent in meetings, talk a little bit about that, 487 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:11,439 Speaker 1: because I think that's very much in line with a 488 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:14,959 Speaker 1: lot of what Laura does, and especially in that there 489 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 1: are executives who may say, oh, I work one hundred 490 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:20,159 Speaker 1: hours a week or whatever it is, but then you know, 491 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,480 Speaker 1: you recognize that, like, well, how many of those hours 492 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:24,639 Speaker 1: are actually spent like creating or actually doing work, and 493 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:26,200 Speaker 1: how many of them are in meetings, and how many 494 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 1: of them are like organizing the work, doing work about work, 495 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:33,160 Speaker 1: et cetera. So talk a little bit about your findings there. Yeah, Well, 496 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:35,560 Speaker 1: I cite in the book there's a lot of research 497 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:39,000 Speaker 1: done about work about work. A SAUNA put out a 498 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:42,399 Speaker 1: report and it's like fifty eight percent of people's time 499 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 1: they found is work about work. That's going on a 500 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:49,240 Speaker 1: scavenger hunt looking for a document that wasn't well organized, 501 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 1: that's trying to coordinate to have a meeting and find 502 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:57,040 Speaker 1: times that everyone's free. That's you know, processing kind of 503 00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:00,879 Speaker 1: your inbox when you actually look at the amount of 504 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:03,640 Speaker 1: time someone has to do that new initiative. You want 505 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,359 Speaker 1: to launch a new website, you want to write an 506 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:08,679 Speaker 1: article for something, whatever it is that you want to do, 507 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:11,080 Speaker 1: and you're trying to figure out, well, how much can 508 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 1: I bite off this week. Most people totally don't estimate 509 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:18,120 Speaker 1: how much they can actually accomplish in a week because 510 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:21,159 Speaker 1: they're not considering how much of this work about worktime 511 00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:23,639 Speaker 1: or what I call my book admin time you have. 512 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,000 Speaker 1: So say your target is to work a forty hour week, 513 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 1: you don't actually have forty hours to do any of 514 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:34,360 Speaker 1: these new initiatives. You have forty hours less. You're pre 515 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:37,239 Speaker 1: committed meetings. So look at your calendar. If you've got 516 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:39,800 Speaker 1: ten hours of meetings for the week, well that forty 517 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 1: just became thirty, right, But maybe it takes you another 518 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 1: twenty hours just to process all of your messages. Maybe 519 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:51,200 Speaker 1: you're just getting bombarded with Slack messages and Asana messages 520 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 1: and emails, and so if that's the case, you're only 521 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 1: left with ten hours remaining to do that website or 522 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,879 Speaker 1: to do that blog. So again that's not rocket science, 523 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:05,719 Speaker 1: but I think most people aren't considering their true bandwidth 524 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:08,920 Speaker 1: is what their target is, less meetings and less the 525 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 1: admin time. And in medicine there's such a parallel to that, 526 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:15,480 Speaker 1: right because we all go to med school to want 527 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 1: to spend time with patients and make them feel better 528 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:19,800 Speaker 1: and talk to them and figure out their stuff, and 529 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:22,560 Speaker 1: then you recognize it actually spends so much time, just 530 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:26,600 Speaker 1: like reordering new prescriptions and changing the lab orders and 531 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 1: documentation taking up a huge chunk of what you're doing, 532 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 1: and moving a clinic takes like you know, oh my god. 533 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,680 Speaker 1: It is very a lot of parallels in the medical world, 534 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:39,280 Speaker 1: as I'm sure there are in multiple industries. So definitely 535 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 1: something interesting to talk about. Even the third part of 536 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 1: my book, on the resource part, where I talk about 537 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 1: the importance of documenting process, I cite a surgeon that 538 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:50,440 Speaker 1: wrote the book The Checklist Manifesto and how errors and 539 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:54,200 Speaker 1: surgical rooms went down like ninety something percent once checklists 540 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,240 Speaker 1: started getting put into the surgical rooms. A tool gool 541 00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,080 Speaker 1: on it. Yes, I love that book. That's a great 542 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:02,240 Speaker 1: book for anybody in any kind of process centric field, 543 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:04,920 Speaker 1: whether it's medicine or if you I think their stuff 544 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:07,040 Speaker 1: is based on aviation but anything where there's a lot 545 00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:10,479 Speaker 1: of processes. Well, my last question, and that is actually 546 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:13,440 Speaker 1: related to kind of this scavenger hunt that you just mentioned. 547 00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:17,119 Speaker 1: If you are starting from a mess, you are in 548 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:19,320 Speaker 1: a company that's been there for a while, and maybe 549 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 1: you're even your division, you recognize that like nothing's documented anywhere, 550 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:25,440 Speaker 1: and if anyone were to leave, it would be like 551 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 1: an unmitigated disaster. How would you start cleaning it up? 552 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:34,560 Speaker 1: Because it's not a small undertaking necessarily, with anything, kind 553 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:36,360 Speaker 1: of you eat the elephant one bite at a time, 554 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 1: take one process and just try to get that right. 555 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:42,320 Speaker 1: With anything, You're better off doing one thing really right 556 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:46,520 Speaker 1: than trying to, like half ass, you know, start touching 557 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,720 Speaker 1: a bunch of different things. So whatever process is the 558 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:52,680 Speaker 1: most broken, the most critical of the business, just focus 559 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:56,080 Speaker 1: on that, get that one good, and then move on 560 00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 1: to the next. Awesome. Well, this has been at so 561 00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:02,240 Speaker 1: much much fun. I did not warn you in advanced Nick, 562 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:03,960 Speaker 1: and I apologize for that, But we do like to 563 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:06,360 Speaker 1: share a love of the week every week, and I 564 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:08,480 Speaker 1: feel like you mentioned so many things that you love 565 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:09,960 Speaker 1: in your book that if you can't think of one, 566 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:13,120 Speaker 1: I can probably come up with one. But I will 567 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 1: give you mine first, and then that'll give you time 568 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:19,600 Speaker 1: to think of yours. Okay, So mine is how in Gmail? 569 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:23,680 Speaker 1: They Gmail has figured out how to identify promotions and 570 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:28,240 Speaker 1: social and then your regular inbox and automatically organizes them. 571 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,560 Speaker 1: I find this tool super, super helpful. I recently figured 572 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:33,600 Speaker 1: out that I could make my we have a Patreon 573 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:35,440 Speaker 1: for best of both worlds, and those messages were actually 574 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:37,520 Speaker 1: coming into my primary inbox. And even though I love 575 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 1: reading those messages, like I don't want them in my 576 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 1: primary inbox, and you can actually tell Gmail like no, 577 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:44,920 Speaker 1: actually those go into social and it fixed it. And 578 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:48,120 Speaker 1: it just makes archiving and cleaning out so much easier 579 00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,960 Speaker 1: with things being automatically categorized like that. So I love 580 00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 1: that feature of Gmail and gmailger is it an amazing technology? Now? 581 00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:58,240 Speaker 1: Like how smart some of these tools can be. I 582 00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:01,320 Speaker 1: would say, mine, I'll just piggyback off you in Gmail. 583 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:03,520 Speaker 1: And we talk about this in the book, but most 584 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:06,680 Speaker 1: people aren't utilizing the snooze feature in Gmail. There's that 585 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:09,800 Speaker 1: little clock icon or an email can magically leave your 586 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:13,240 Speaker 1: inbox and then magically come back on the date that 587 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:15,560 Speaker 1: you want it to come back, and that's the defer 588 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:19,640 Speaker 1: part of RAED and that's a really critical, powerful feature 589 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:24,080 Speaker 1: that is underutilized. Yeah, that's a really good point. I've 590 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:26,240 Speaker 1: used the delay send, but I have not really made 591 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:28,840 Speaker 1: use of snooze, And it does kind of make sense 592 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:31,000 Speaker 1: because there's certain things that instead of writing yourself a note, 593 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:33,280 Speaker 1: you can just pin yourself with it with the same message. 594 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:36,480 Speaker 1: So or it could be, you know, driving directions to 595 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 1: some appointment and it's in a month, what are you 596 00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:40,200 Speaker 1: going to do with that email? It doesn't need to 597 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:41,920 Speaker 1: sit there for a month. You just need to come 598 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:44,239 Speaker 1: back the morning of that appointment, right. Or you want 599 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:47,120 Speaker 1: to write to someone and if you don't hear back 600 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:48,840 Speaker 1: from them in a week, you want it to you 601 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:50,840 Speaker 1: want to know. But if they write back to you 602 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:52,760 Speaker 1: on day three, you want to know on day three. 603 00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:55,960 Speaker 1: So snoozing will deactivate the sooner of the date that 604 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,680 Speaker 1: you put or an update to the thread. So it's 605 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:03,080 Speaker 1: a really critical part of getting to inbox zero. Totally 606 00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:05,800 Speaker 1: makes sense. That is awesome. Well, thank you so much 607 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:08,720 Speaker 1: for coming on. Tell our listeners the best places where 608 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,800 Speaker 1: they can find you remind them of the full book title, 609 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 1: and also the websites where you can get all the 610 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:16,640 Speaker 1: resources that go along with it. You can go and 611 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,120 Speaker 1: check out my new book, Come Up for Air. We 612 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:21,960 Speaker 1: have a website, come upfair dot com. We have a 613 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:25,000 Speaker 1: bunch of free resources. You can go there and see 614 00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:27,840 Speaker 1: where to buy the book. We have some special offers 615 00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,959 Speaker 1: for buying it for your team. Ultimately, this is all 616 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:34,120 Speaker 1: about team productivity and you want your team to all 617 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:36,680 Speaker 1: speak the same language. And then if you need extra 618 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:39,640 Speaker 1: help and you need help on training or consulting with 619 00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:43,600 Speaker 1: any of your systems, Get Leverage dot com is the 620 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 1: training and consulting company that we run that helps people 621 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 1: with operational efficiency. Awesome, Well, thank you so much. This 622 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:53,240 Speaker 1: has been so much fun to chat about all things productivity, 623 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:57,880 Speaker 1: efficiency and teamwork. Thanks for having me. Well, that was awesome. 624 00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 1: Thank you Sarah and Nick for that conversation. This week's 625 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:05,160 Speaker 1: question comes from someone who is in a demanding graduate 626 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 1: program and feels overscheduled already just with her course load. 627 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:12,920 Speaker 1: She is living on her own, so she's doing all 628 00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:14,680 Speaker 1: the chores in her house, and she says she doesn't 629 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:16,720 Speaker 1: have a lot of disposable income right now, is sort 630 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:19,440 Speaker 1: of the natural way that graduate school tends to work. 631 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:21,840 Speaker 1: But she says she has a question about setting goals 632 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:25,040 Speaker 1: and boundaries in her particular graduate program, that she is 633 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:29,560 Speaker 1: frequently told to be optimizing on networking and socializing, as 634 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,160 Speaker 1: that is one of the big upsides of her prestigious school. 635 00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:35,480 Speaker 1: The downside is, of course, that she has limited energy 636 00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:37,520 Speaker 1: and she has big demands on her time in the 637 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:40,520 Speaker 1: force a form of a very demanding course load. So 638 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:43,480 Speaker 1: you know, she's thinking that networking is a trade off 639 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,920 Speaker 1: with understanding the course material more deeply. So she's asked 640 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:50,520 Speaker 1: us for any tips or suggestions on how to balance 641 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,360 Speaker 1: making the most of the learning experience that she's getting 642 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:57,240 Speaker 1: there while not neglecting building her network. So Sarah, go 643 00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:01,640 Speaker 1: for it. Yeah, I thought this was an interesting question. 644 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:04,840 Speaker 1: I love that she used the word boundaries in her 645 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:08,080 Speaker 1: question because to me, that's key to the answer. This 646 00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:10,800 Speaker 1: is one of those almost like false choice type of 647 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:15,320 Speaker 1: dichotomies here, like how can I both network and you know, 648 00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:18,360 Speaker 1: do this deep academic work. And I think you have 649 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:20,400 Speaker 1: to decide, well, how much how much is kind of 650 00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:23,720 Speaker 1: like the minimal acceptable networking time and see if you 651 00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:26,320 Speaker 1: can create like a templative sort for yourself, like maybe 652 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:29,520 Speaker 1: one weeknight and one weekend event that's just one example, 653 00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:31,400 Speaker 1: I don't know exactly what you want your schedule to 654 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 1: be prioritizing free events since you mentioned finances, and if 655 00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:38,600 Speaker 1: you know that your calendar is going to, you know, 656 00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:40,440 Speaker 1: have those two times blocked off, then the rest of 657 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 1: the time is a lot of time to get all 658 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 1: of that academic work done. And I do think that 659 00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:48,720 Speaker 1: thinking of it is a finite thing to check off, 660 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:50,880 Speaker 1: like Okay, I'm gonna network twice a week, rather than 661 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:53,160 Speaker 1: some nebulous expectation that like, oh, I'm supposed to be 662 00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:56,000 Speaker 1: networking all the time, will kind of help you reframe 663 00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 1: the task to something that's that's manageable. I also was thinking, 664 00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:01,920 Speaker 1: may maybe there are some areas where the networking might 665 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:04,680 Speaker 1: overlap with the academic work, like a study group. Perhaps. 666 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:07,760 Speaker 1: I'm sure that's something you've thought of. But networking doesn't 667 00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:09,840 Speaker 1: only have to happen late at night in fancy bars, 668 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:13,839 Speaker 1: so you know, embrace other opportunities as well. Absolutely, I 669 00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:16,200 Speaker 1: totally agree that it doesn't have to just happen in 670 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:18,319 Speaker 1: fancy bars. And I would throw out here that there 671 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:19,920 Speaker 1: are one hundred and sixty eight hours in a week. 672 00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:22,840 Speaker 1: There is time to study, there is time to interact 673 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:25,600 Speaker 1: with other human beings and probably do your chores and 674 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:28,080 Speaker 1: sleep as well, So you know, might want to plot 675 00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:30,640 Speaker 1: that out roughly when you plan to do all those things. 676 00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:32,680 Speaker 1: But I just want to kind of throw out here 677 00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:35,319 Speaker 1: that networking. I think we need to have a bit 678 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,440 Speaker 1: of a mindset shift here about networking. You know, a 679 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:40,040 Speaker 1: lot of people are like, oh, I need to network more, 680 00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:41,920 Speaker 1: and we have this idea that's like you go to 681 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,120 Speaker 1: an event and you collect business cards or I guess 682 00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:46,640 Speaker 1: these days LinkedIn contacts or like snink up your phone 683 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:48,640 Speaker 1: or whatever it is. You know, back in the old day, 684 00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:51,720 Speaker 1: we were walking around with those little pocketfuls of business 685 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:55,160 Speaker 1: cards that you hand out. But it's absolutely not just 686 00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:57,439 Speaker 1: about that, and even you know, sometime those things tend 687 00:34:57,440 --> 00:34:59,000 Speaker 1: not to be all that effective. Or like going to 688 00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:01,880 Speaker 1: happy hours, it can be fun, but like it's loud, 689 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:03,480 Speaker 1: you're not really going to be talking that much with 690 00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:07,280 Speaker 1: individual people on anything deep. So the goal of networking 691 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:10,400 Speaker 1: is not about collecting the business cards. It's about having 692 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:14,319 Speaker 1: people who think you are amazing and who in the 693 00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:18,080 Speaker 1: future will be actively looking for ways to work with you, right, 694 00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:21,160 Speaker 1: That is the goal. Like the people who are like, hey, 695 00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:23,240 Speaker 1: if you're ever looking for a job. Call me first. 696 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:25,240 Speaker 1: People will be like, we've got to do something together 697 00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:27,440 Speaker 1: in the future. People who are seeking you out, that 698 00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:30,840 Speaker 1: is what you want, And so that means that a 699 00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:33,600 Speaker 1: study group is better than a bar because you're getting 700 00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:36,319 Speaker 1: to know those people really well and you're working on 701 00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:39,440 Speaker 1: projects to gather and so they're getting a sense of 702 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:41,480 Speaker 1: how amazing you are and that they do want to 703 00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:45,080 Speaker 1: keep up this relationship long term. You can also look 704 00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:48,320 Speaker 1: for ways to do things that you'd normally do with others, 705 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,919 Speaker 1: Like can you exercise with class lights? Maybe you find 706 00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:54,839 Speaker 1: two other people in this program who want to do 707 00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:58,000 Speaker 1: early morning walks along the river with you. Not that 708 00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:01,600 Speaker 1: I'm giving away where she's at school. There's lots of 709 00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:04,520 Speaker 1: rivers and lots of rivers this particular one people walk 710 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:06,719 Speaker 1: along all the time. So you go and walk along 711 00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:10,200 Speaker 1: the river with your classmates at this place. You know, 712 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,480 Speaker 1: you could like, I presume you are eating lunch probably 713 00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:15,920 Speaker 1: between classes, Like, you know, you've got your morning class 714 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:18,719 Speaker 1: in an afternoon seminar. You have to eat. Where are 715 00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:21,319 Speaker 1: you eating? Like, you can make a plan to meet 716 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:23,880 Speaker 1: up with someone to eat together. You know, these are 717 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:25,760 Speaker 1: just the things you can do in order to nurture 718 00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:30,560 Speaker 1: those relationships with your classmates, even absent the idea of 719 00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:35,000 Speaker 1: spending X number of hours in bars each week. Love it, 720 00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:37,840 Speaker 1: love it all right? Well, anyway, this has been best 721 00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:41,600 Speaker 1: of both worlds. Sarah was interviewing Nick Sonenberg on how 722 00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:44,239 Speaker 1: we are coming up for air not drowning and overwork. 723 00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:46,720 Speaker 1: We will be back next week with more on making 724 00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:51,480 Speaker 1: work and life fit together. Thanks for listening. You can 725 00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:55,000 Speaker 1: find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com or at 726 00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:58,480 Speaker 1: the Underscore shoe Box on Instagram, and you can find 727 00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:02,680 Speaker 1: me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has been 728 00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:06,080 Speaker 1: the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join us next 729 00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:09,240 Speaker 1: time for more on making work and life work together.