Speaker 1: Of the law and order franchises. SVU is considered especially watchable.
Speaker 2: We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the
Speaker 2: vicious felonies. These episodes are based on.
Speaker 3: These are our stories, done done.
Speaker 1: Hello, Hello, Hello, and welcome to That's Messed Up, an
Speaker 1: SVU podcast. I'm Kara Klank and.
Speaker 2: I'm Liza Traeger. We chat SVU True Crime. We have
Speaker 2: celeb guests and at first we do a little chit chatting,
Speaker 2: a little chit chat. What's up, Carol?
Speaker 1: Not much recovering from my B day. I had a
Speaker 1: great time and thanks for everybody who wished me well
Speaker 1: on the Instagram and everything. That was really nice and
Speaker 1: made me feel good. And then I went to dinner
Speaker 1: with my husband and we went to this I went
Speaker 1: to this place. Like you know how everybody's like talking
Speaker 1: now about like quiet quitting, like doing the bare minimum.
Speaker 1: Like the hostess at the restaurant last night was like
Speaker 1: quiet resigning, Like she was like handing in her resume.
Speaker 1: She could not have given less of a shit. Like
Speaker 1: when she was like the name and I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: it's under care, it's undercare, clank or whatever, she was like, okay, right,
Speaker 1: this way, and happy birthday to whoever, because there was
Speaker 1: like a note that it was someone's birthday in the thing.
Speaker 1: She just goes happy birthday to whoever, and.
Speaker 2: Like kept walking. I was like, girl, well it's so funny.
Speaker 2: One of my friends she was saying, she's like this
Speaker 2: quiet quitting. It's like fuck you to capitalism and the establishment.
Speaker 2: But what people don't realize is like you're affecting regular
Speaker 2: people just like you, Yeah, like you being shit, I
Speaker 2: mean not a host like who cares, but in terms
Speaker 2: of like not doing certain work, like it affects regular people,
Speaker 2: Like you're fucking up people's lives. Well yeah, and if
Speaker 2: you don't want to do your job. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And I was also like watching this video on like
Speaker 1: NPR's Instagram from this woman that's like yeah, and like
Speaker 1: also a lot of people of color like don't have
Speaker 1: the option, like women and people of color who get
Speaker 1: paid less and don't like have the same opportunities for advancement,
Speaker 1: like they actually have to do one hundred and twenty
Speaker 1: percent of work or they are not eligible for like
Speaker 1: you know, promotions and moving forward. So it's a little
Speaker 1: bit quiet quitting sometimes I think a little bit of
Speaker 1: a but.
Speaker 2: It's also a fake I think it's a fake word
Speaker 2: created by like the newspapers or something, because it also
Speaker 2: seems like a normal thing where it's like you shouldn't
Speaker 2: be having to work above and beyond what you're supposed to,
Speaker 2: like you should clock out at five and live your life.
Speaker 2: And so it's not about quiet quitting. It's about like
Speaker 2: shifting boundaries. But also like if you don't fill out
Speaker 2: a form like our friends, like a bunch of stuff
Speaker 2: with our friends. Loans were like at the hands of
Speaker 2: someone who like refused to look at the screen or
Speaker 2: look at the right email, and you have to and
Speaker 2: it's like you are fucking up regular people. Yeah, you
Speaker 2: can't do it. Yeah, Plus you work at a bullshit job.
Speaker 2: If you're selling Coca cola, no one cares. If you're
Speaker 2: in charge of people's loans getting forgiven, you better snap
Speaker 2: to it. Yeah, you better work.
Speaker 1: But I also like read I also read this study
Speaker 1: this morning that was in my week. I get like
Speaker 1: a daily newsletter from this place Axios that I read
Speaker 1: every morning, and they had like a whole study about
Speaker 1: it that said, like like quiet quitting, whatever you want
Speaker 1: to call it, just doing your job to what is
Speaker 1: expected of you and not going beyond is kind of
Speaker 1: universally approved by like young people right now. And it's
Speaker 1: across ages. It's I mean, it's I'm sorry, it's across race,
Speaker 1: it's across a political affiliation. It's like in the high
Speaker 1: seventies to the eighties, it's like like everyone's saying it
Speaker 1: percent between seventies and eighty percent of people are saying like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I just want to do like what is expected of
Speaker 1: me and no more.
Speaker 2: And so that's kind of yeah, because we've been tricked
Speaker 2: to be like little hamsters in a wheel and it's
Speaker 2: just like it's all tricks, and I think people should
Speaker 2: not be like doing or I hate I hate when
Speaker 2: people are proud of like I never missed a day
Speaker 2: of work. I'm like, you shouldn't tell people that, Yeah,
Speaker 2: you're a loser.
Speaker 1: You never heard the day of work, so that you
Speaker 1: came to work with a cold, you got other people sick, like,
Speaker 1: there's no way you.
Speaker 2: I didn't even go there. I just went like go
Speaker 2: to the beach. No.
Speaker 1: I know that too.
Speaker 2: I don't care as much about the sickness. But that
Speaker 2: was wild thinking about like the nineties and people be
Speaker 2: like we gotta go or even me, Remember I did
Speaker 2: your show, Remember when you were running the show at
Speaker 2: bar Lubitch and I had as to other spots and
Speaker 2: I was like sitting in a pot.
Speaker 1: You were like I was hanging in the corner and
Speaker 1: you were like, gotta do my spot. And I was like, Liza,
Speaker 1: We're okay, you can just go home. And you were like, yeah,
Speaker 1: but I'm up at the store after this or something.
Speaker 2: But they also were like, yeah, you don't. Can you
Speaker 2: not do that again? And I was like, for sure,
Speaker 2: I've just been trained in this other thing and visiting,
Speaker 2: you know, like everything matters. I don't know. Yeah, Like
Speaker 2: but I fully had the flu and then I was
Speaker 2: bedridden for like a week in my airbnb there. This
Speaker 2: was years ago.
Speaker 1: But well, my thing was that I would never call
Speaker 1: in sick to go to I would just go into
Speaker 1: work sick so that I could use sick days for
Speaker 1: fake days, like I would be like, I'm so sick today,
Speaker 1: I can't make it in on the days that I
Speaker 1: wanted to just like go horrible or around.
Speaker 2: You go in sick, but then you go I'm not
Speaker 2: feeling good.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you go to show your face and then you're like.
Speaker 2: But I've said this before. I think on the pod
Speaker 2: the best way to get out of work is pink I.
Speaker 2: No one wants to be around pink I. No one.
Speaker 2: Everyone's discussing it by.
Speaker 1: It so contagious, But you have to like what do
Speaker 1: you do? Do you rub your eye a bunch and
Speaker 1: then like wants evidence, no one cares you. Go, hey,
Speaker 1: I have pink eye.
Speaker 2: I could come in with an eye patch and then
Speaker 2: they just stay high clicking with an eye patch. What
Speaker 2: I don't want you? What don't want you? But yeah,
Speaker 2: I saw a chart today. I don't know if it
Speaker 2: was a real chart. It was on Twitter, but it
Speaker 2: was a guy saying like that if your goals in
Speaker 2: life are like money, fame, youth, whatever, like it's a
Speaker 2: bottomless pit of agony and you'll never be satisfied. And
Speaker 2: so there needs to be more things in your life
Speaker 2: that you're looking for, not just like salary and job position.
Speaker 2: And I always say this and the chart said it,
Speaker 2: but it's like time. People don't get free. Time is
Speaker 2: like the most valuable thing on this fucking planet. And
Speaker 2: I think the people that are so like money, money, money,
Speaker 2: I hate my family. I have to make money like
Speaker 2: they don't understand being like chiller about it, but like
Speaker 2: free time is the greatest thing. I think that you
Speaker 2: can have time to know.
Speaker 1: I barely have any That was nice about my birthday yesterday,
Speaker 1: Like I had a few free hours in the afternoon
Speaker 1: and I just went and had wine with Lisa and
Speaker 1: it was like really nice. I never get to do
Speaker 1: anything like that, Like I never have free time, so
Speaker 1: it was nice.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just feel the boomers think they're the greatest
Speaker 2: generation because they killed the Nazis, and I'm not devaluing that,
Speaker 2: thank you so much. I think the Russians had a
Speaker 2: lot to do with it too, but they are truly
Speaker 2: the worst. Like they created every bad thing in our society,
Speaker 2: like fake foods, microwave working all the time. Yeah, the mutes,
Speaker 2: all of that stuff, like the boot like you gotta
Speaker 2: buy a house and do this and do that and
Speaker 2: do this, and you have to do it this, so
Speaker 2: it's like all the boom and then ruining it for
Speaker 2: everyone else being like, well I did it, so you
Speaker 2: gotta do it, so I'm gonna make it harder for you.
Speaker 2: I mean, they are the worst.
Speaker 1: I didn't know the Boomers killed the Nazis. My parents
Speaker 1: are boomers and they were born like the year that
Speaker 1: the Nazis went down.
Speaker 2: Oh is the not or did the Nazi killers give
Speaker 2: birth to the boomers? I think that's what it is. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's what it is.
Speaker 1: But what are they? What were they?
Speaker 2: What's the greatest generation? The greatest generation? That's what it is.
Speaker 1: The fucking, the fucking self centeredness of that name. Like, wow,
Speaker 1: you're just the greatest generation. That's it.
Speaker 2: That's because of the not. Yeah, they killed the Nazis
Speaker 2: and then when they came home, no therapy. I mean, oh,
Speaker 2: this will obviously quickly go into the patriarchy all of
Speaker 2: that there. But yeah, it's it's weird. But it's also
Speaker 2: weird to talk about any of this because, like you said,
Speaker 2: a lot of people don't even have the opportunity to
Speaker 2: not you know, to like think about self care, you
Speaker 2: know what I mean? Right, like se people are just
Speaker 2: working so many jobs. But I don't know. I do
Speaker 2: want to say this morning, I was woken up very
Speaker 2: very early by the beautiful Highland Park parents oh tweets.
Speaker 2: They were so loud and I was getting upset, and
Speaker 2: then I was like just go look at them and
Speaker 2: When I stepped outside and looked at them, I was
Speaker 2: instantly smiling.
Speaker 1: Oh, that's nice.
Speaker 2: They're so pretty. It seems special. It seems like such
Speaker 2: a special treat to see, like green and red birds.
Speaker 2: I don't know, they're just really pretty. But they're so loud.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's a lot of them. It's wild. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they're in Pasadena too. There's like the Pasadena parrots. I
Speaker 1: don't know if they're no one crew.
Speaker 2: No, it's it is the Pasadena parrots. But I call
Speaker 2: them the Highland.
Speaker 1: Park I think there's Highland Park parrots too.
Speaker 2: I mean we have our I see them. I see
Speaker 2: them here. Yeah, if they're here, But I don't know
Speaker 2: what to tell you. Do you ever hear that that
Speaker 2: was because of a fire at a pet store? We
Speaker 2: talked about this before, Yeah, I talk about it all
Speaker 2: the time.
Speaker 1: Is that what happened?
Speaker 2: Yeah, they escaped the pet store fire, got it. I
Speaker 2: mean there's theories that it could also be like a
Speaker 2: smuggling situation gone wrong, a lah wildlife oh episode, and
Speaker 2: all these birds escaped. But I like the idea of
Speaker 2: escaping the pet shops surviving and they were endangered, like
Speaker 2: they were only a captivity type bird and then they've
Speaker 2: just like taken over another while our neighborhoods and wildlife,
Speaker 2: just like the little bird found in that girl's purse
Speaker 2: in wildlife. Yeah, the macaw, the spicks macaw. Yeah, we did.
Speaker 2: We did recently have our live show in LA. We're
Speaker 2: in the time machine, you know, at this point it'll
Speaker 2: be long gone. But we had a good time at
Speaker 2: our live show. Thank you to everybody that came out
Speaker 2: in LA and San Diego. Good times.
Speaker 1: If you guys are interested, we're touring all over the place. Washington,
Speaker 1: d C. On the sixteenth of October, Charlotte on the seventeenth,
Speaker 1: Raleigh on the eighteenth, Atlanta on the nineteenth, and then Huntsville,
Speaker 1: Alabama on the twenty second, and Nashville on the twenty third.
Speaker 1: So come on out and see us. That's messed uplive
Speaker 1: dot com are our ticketinos.
Speaker 2: And I said I was going to take a break
Speaker 2: from getting tattooed, but I do kind of want to
Speaker 2: get tattooed in Nashville.
Speaker 1: Oh, that's a fun idea. There's a couple artists that
Speaker 1: I like, And you said you wanted a Halloween tattoo.
Speaker 2: And they would be they would make me very good
Speaker 2: Halloween tattoos. I don't know what I'm gonna do. I
Speaker 2: also want to really cursive sexy L.
Speaker 1: But oh my god, that I was so obsessed with
Speaker 1: the cursive L growing up, Like when I was a kid,
Speaker 1: I used to just draw them constantly and I just
Speaker 1: was like, I love the L. I love the capital L,
Speaker 1: like cursive, and I'm would draw it all the time and
Speaker 1: be like, I'm gonna marry someone with the last name
Speaker 1: that begins with L. And I did, and then I
Speaker 1: didn't take his last name, so I don't get to
Speaker 1: write that beautiful L out No.
Speaker 2: Ella's definitely the Curse of La is gorgeous. Yeah, ol
Speaker 2: is like it's just starts so many great words. Yeah yeah,
Speaker 2: because I think getting like love or lucky tattooed is
Speaker 2: like kind of gay in the bad way I'm saying it.
Speaker 2: But an L can mean it all, you know what
Speaker 2: I mean? Yeah, that's how I feel. And Lisa, like
Speaker 2: you can't get Lisa, but you can get it now. Yeah, lollipops, lions,
Speaker 2: It's just like all great.
Speaker 1: Things, listeria. Yeah, like just everything good.
Speaker 2: Because I know I was thinking of another thing and
Speaker 2: the only thing that came to my Oh, lemonade.
Speaker 1: Delicious, lysol clean.
Speaker 2: My mom would love that.
Speaker 1: Okay, do you want to get going. We've got a
Speaker 1: great episode for you guys today, So don't go anywhere,
Speaker 1: all right. We are doing one of the best episodes,
Speaker 1: I think, a real barn burner, like they really wanted
Speaker 1: you to forget the maloney had gone away and they
Speaker 1: give you an episode like this. This is season thirteen.
Speaker 1: This is Double Strands, Season thirteen, episode four, uh from
Speaker 1: way back in twenty eleven, and we open on Ballerina
Speaker 1: stretching very center stage vibes. A girl goes up to
Speaker 1: a blonde girl and is like, congratsung it the solo
Speaker 1: or like whatever it is. And the blonde girl is
Speaker 1: her name is Gillian Alexi, and I knew I recognized
Speaker 1: her when I looked her up. She's been in Damages.
Speaker 1: But do you remember she was in The Americans and
Speaker 1: she was one of Matthew Reese's undercovers, but then she
Speaker 1: kind of fell in love with like the Middle Eastern
Speaker 1: guy that she was undercover, like seducing, and then he
Speaker 1: kills her. Do you remember when Matthew Reese has to
Speaker 1: go help like break her body and put it into
Speaker 1: a suitcase. On the Americans, this blonde woman because she
Speaker 1: got too she like she decided to like go. She
Speaker 1: was obsessed with the guy. She was like surveiling and
Speaker 1: then he killed her like in a he like choked
Speaker 1: her to death while he was in the room next door. Anyway,
Speaker 1: crazy episode of the Americans. And this girl is is
Speaker 1: that is her from that? So I remembered her from
Speaker 1: that and she is very excited to show off her
Speaker 1: moves and she can't wait to show everybody what she
Speaker 1: can do. And the girl's like, honey, you're on Broadway now,
Speaker 1: bitch is better bow down. And so we find out
Speaker 1: that these are like Broadway dancers. And so we see
Speaker 1: through the window while they're stretching at the bar someone
Speaker 1: it's like a huge you know, front storefront window that
Speaker 1: they're at somehow at their ballet studio, and there's a
Speaker 1: man across the street taking photos of her. Uh oh,
Speaker 1: not good. The next thing we see is this woman
Speaker 1: in her ballet outfit still and like a hoodie, walking
Speaker 1: alone at night on an extremely dark, empty street. I'm
Speaker 1: not trying to victim blame, but not a great idea.
Speaker 1: And someone gives her a whole like, oh, you look
Speaker 1: prettier when you smile. Bullshit, and she's kind of like
Speaker 1: ignoring him. But then he says Danielle, He says her name,
Speaker 1: and she like turns around like, holy shit, how does
Speaker 1: this creep know my name? Just as she turns around,
Speaker 1: this fucking guy ambushes her, pushes her against a fence,
Speaker 1: and we see he's got a knife in his hand.
Speaker 1: In the next scene, we see a pretty graphic sexual
Speaker 1: assault happening in a wooded area. There's a bike nearby,
Speaker 1: and the guy keeps telling her like, look at my face,
Speaker 1: look at my face, so now, which is terrible because
Speaker 1: it's horrible.
Speaker 2: Well, not only all of that, but if they're trying
Speaker 2: to get away with a crime, you don't want the
Speaker 2: victim to look at your face.
Speaker 1: I know, it's very Again, we're not trying to tell
Speaker 1: people how to get away with crimes, but these guys
Speaker 1: are dumb. In the next scene, she is reporting her
Speaker 1: experience to Benson. They're sitting on a park bench and
Speaker 1: Danielle is like, I should have just smiled, and Benson's like, na, girl,
Speaker 1: you did everything right. You survived, which is the Benson mantra,
Speaker 1: I know.
Speaker 2: But every time I hear Benson say that, now, I
Speaker 2: just remember you talking about that cat, like Mittens, you
Speaker 2: did everything you can survive.
Speaker 1: You did everything you could Mittens. So yeah, So she
Speaker 1: basically is giving the mitten speech to Danielle and she's like,
Speaker 1: I've never seen this guy before, but he knew all
Speaker 1: about me. He was wearing late text gloves. Benson's like,
Speaker 1: did you notice any tattoos or anything? And she's like,
Speaker 1: he had kind of like a tai chi thing on
Speaker 1: his neck. And this peaks Rollin's interest. And remember Rollins
Speaker 1: is like four episodes into the show's new She's the
Speaker 1: new gal okay, and she butts In, which you know,
Speaker 1: live does not like and you can see it all
Speaker 1: over her face and she's like, wait, what kind of
Speaker 1: tattoo was it? And she was like, you know, black
Speaker 1: and white and she was like, oh, the yin yang
Speaker 1: and she was like, yeah, that's what it was. Did
Speaker 1: he say anything and she's like, yeah, he said tell
Speaker 1: me you love me, mommy, And this is really getting
Speaker 1: Rollins going. She's like obsessed and she's like, okay, how
Speaker 1: did he get away? And the girl goes on a
Speaker 1: bike and then Benson is like, can you excuse us
Speaker 1: for a second, pulls Rollins aside and lectures her about
Speaker 1: how in New York, I don't know how you do
Speaker 1: it down South, girly, but up here only one of
Speaker 1: us does the intake so we don't overwhelm the victim.
Speaker 1: And Rollins is like, I know this is insane, but
Speaker 1: I know this guy. I know this purp. We had
Speaker 1: a guy with the same momo down in Georgia, a
Speaker 1: serial rapist who stalks his victims, has the same tattoo,
Speaker 1: would say tell me you love me, Mommy lives Like
Speaker 1: that's kind of a stretch, and Rollins is like, maybe
Speaker 1: it is, or maybe this guy's in New York City.
Speaker 1: Dunt dune credits. Indeed, yeah a lot. So now we're
Speaker 1: at the precinct and Amanda's giving everyone the lowdown. They
Speaker 1: called this guy the Atlantic Coast rapist down in Georgia.
Speaker 1: He was a white male in his thirties with a
Speaker 1: yin yang tattoo who attacked women in Georgia, Maryland, in Virginia.
Speaker 1: He's a classic power reassurance serial rapist and there were
Speaker 1: fifteen rapes over nine years. But then nothing in the
Speaker 1: last three years, so they thought he was either locked
Speaker 1: up or dead. All his victims were young, fit, athletic women.
Speaker 1: There was always a bike planted in the woods. His
Speaker 1: first four rapes. He didn't wear a condom, so they
Speaker 1: do have his DNA, and he also left a partial
Speaker 1: print on like a screwdriver in one of his attacks.
Speaker 1: And the kicker, this guy loves blondes. It's like not
Speaker 1: even like a preference, it's an obsession. And so Benson
Speaker 1: enters telling them how Danielle did the perfect thing. She
Speaker 1: pulled out a bunch of this guy's hair with the
Speaker 1: roots attached and she kept it so okay. So the sketch,
Speaker 1: he's like, hope you don't mind, Captain, I brought in Fujiita.
Speaker 1: So we find out that Fujiita is this freelance artist
Speaker 1: who does straight up, like moody charcoal portraits of these perps,
Speaker 1: Like it's not the like weird guy with badis that
Speaker 1: looks like every single thing like this guy does, Like
Speaker 1: there's light on their faces. It's like full portraits. So
Speaker 1: you're gonna get an ID from this guy, even though
Speaker 1: Munch is like, oh, he's so expensive, as if he's
Speaker 1: paying for it. And so when Benson tacks it to
Speaker 1: the board, you immediately see that on this drawing, like, oh,
Speaker 1: that's tr Knight from Grey's Anatomy, Like you can you can,
Speaker 1: like we haven't seen the actor yet, but you can
Speaker 1: tell it's this guy. And I think like tr Knight
Speaker 1: kind of controversially left Gray's Anatomy because he thought it
Speaker 1: was like after he came out as gay, and he
Speaker 1: thought Shonda Rhymes was like cutting his screen screen time.
Speaker 1: I'm not really a Grays person, but I did discover
Speaker 1: looking up tr Night's biography that his husband is a
Speaker 1: ballet dancer, so a tie in anyway. Munch and Finner
Speaker 1: on the show Street, we see this guy's face is
Speaker 1: all over New York. It's like up on screens, it's
Speaker 1: on newspapers, and Munch is like, for some reason going
Speaker 1: on this big brother rant about the violation of civil liberties,
Speaker 1: like they're going to take our DNA at birth and
Speaker 1: like put it in a library and YadA YadA, and
Speaker 1: like Iced Tea is like, yeah, like only criminals would
Speaker 1: care about that, and Munch is like, or people who
Speaker 1: care about civil liberty. He's like, you know, gets into
Speaker 1: his conspiracy theory. Shit, and then Munch is like, also
Speaker 1: putting this guy's face out there. Now, we're going to
Speaker 1: have to manage all these crackpot calls that we get.
Speaker 1: So we cut to the precinct. The phones are ringing
Speaker 1: off the hook. Munch is on the phone with some
Speaker 1: looney tune who like is telling her him that it's
Speaker 1: a black man, and she's like, it's a white man,
Speaker 1: and Munch is like, it's a white man and hangs up.
Speaker 1: And then uh, He's like, can someone take over for me?
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go chew glass. I really miss him? And
Speaker 1: they see, uh, they see a blonde woman has just
Speaker 1: arrived at us for you, and she's looking kind of nervous.
Speaker 1: So in a way, in a crackpot a bad word.
Speaker 1: I don't think crackpot is a bad word. I think
Speaker 1: it's crackhead. That's about.
Speaker 2: Well, we can call people crackpots.
Speaker 1: Man, we I think he said crackpot, because that's not
Speaker 1: I'm just wondering if we need to make crackpot merch
Speaker 1: like I love it. It says a crackpot is an
Speaker 1: eccentric or foolish person. So it's not even about it's
Speaker 1: not about somebody who has like a like a mental issue,
Speaker 1: health issue.
Speaker 2: Right, crackpot, that's her new word, crackpot.
Speaker 1: The word is fairly derogatory, but I don't think it's
Speaker 1: well that's what it says. Is it offensive. I don't
Speaker 1: think it's about someone having mental health issues. So anyway,
Speaker 1: So Benson and Rollins are interviewing this young blonde woman
Speaker 1: and her name is Lana. She says she was attacked
Speaker 1: two months earlier in Morningside Park but she never reported uh,
Speaker 1: and then she saw his face on the news that
Speaker 1: morning and recognize the neck tattoo. So now, as the
Speaker 1: interview continues, we hear Benson and Laana talking, but what
Speaker 1: we're seeing is tr Night, the actor, teaching his six
Speaker 1: year old son how to throw a baseball. He looks
Speaker 1: very clean, He's in like a suit and he's like,
Speaker 1: here's how you hold the grip, buddy. And we see
Speaker 1: a woman behind with a friend and they're taping him
Speaker 1: on her cell phone and Lana is confirming that he
Speaker 1: said the same thing that tell me you love me
Speaker 1: mommy line. They show her a photo that the mom
Speaker 1: sends in from the park as a tip, and she's like,
Speaker 1: that's him. So boom, boom, boom. We've got some id's already.
Speaker 1: Now we're talking to park Mom who was taking the
Speaker 1: video and her friend. And the one of these women
Speaker 1: is named Darlene Violet, and I used to do She
Speaker 1: used to run these casting sessions in New York that
Speaker 1: were like pay to play. Did you ever hear about these, Lisa,
Speaker 1: Like before I had before I had a manager and
Speaker 1: agent and I was just doing comedy. Like a friend
Speaker 1: told me about these. It was like, yeah, you like,
Speaker 1: go and you can. You can audition for these casting
Speaker 1: directors but they get paid, and it's like it's I
Speaker 1: don't think it's like necessarily a legit practice and I
Speaker 1: don't know how much ever comes out of it. But
Speaker 1: I would go and like, do these like auditions, and
Speaker 1: I would like audition for I was like, I just
Speaker 1: want to do comedy stuff. But then I would get
Speaker 1: and they'd be like, here is a scene from a
Speaker 1: movie about a CIA agent and you're hanging out of
Speaker 1: a helicopter and I'm like, yeah, this is not what
Speaker 1: I wanted to be doing, but okay, So anyway, I
Speaker 1: know this woman Darlene Violet, and they are like yep.
Speaker 1: He started bringing his boy to the park this summer
Speaker 1: and our kids play together. He lives across the street
Speaker 1: from Darlene, so now we've got his exact address. And
Speaker 1: now they are at the home of Gabriel and Janie Thomas,
Speaker 1: and Gabriel is walking home with his son, and when
Speaker 1: the cops reveal themselves, Gabriel is pumped as shit. He's
Speaker 1: like shaking their hands. He's being extremely cordial for a
Speaker 1: potential rapist. They show him the front page of the
Speaker 1: paper and he's like, oh, that's got to be a mistake.
Speaker 1: And then his wife comes out and is like, honey,
Speaker 1: what's going on. And they're like, well, we just want
Speaker 1: to know where your husband was two nights ago, and
Speaker 1: she says, oh, home with us, home with his family,
Speaker 1: and he goes, yeah, except for I went out for
Speaker 1: a bike ride at nine o'clock and I ride by
Speaker 1: myself and I don't take my phone. I just take
Speaker 1: like a little bit of cash, and like that's it.
Speaker 1: So again, very suspiciously forthcoming for a rapist. And he
Speaker 1: says he doesn't need a lawyer and offers to go
Speaker 1: to the station to answer questions. No problem at the precinct.
Speaker 1: Tomorrow's like, I don't know, Rolins, your boy seems like
Speaker 1: he's playing it pretty cool for like you know, someone
Speaker 1: who's guilty, Like he doesn't even need a lawyer. He
Speaker 1: said he didn't want a lawyer, and Rollins is like, oh, really,
Speaker 1: he's already got one. And it's Sherry West. And we
Speaker 1: know Sherry West as a very forgettable blonde Ada. In
Speaker 1: season twelve, she was in four episodes as the Ada,
Speaker 1: and now she is back in season thirteen as a
Speaker 1: defense attorney. So now Gabriel is about to do a
Speaker 1: lineup and Rollins is throwing shade at Sherry West, like,
Speaker 1: if you get this guy off, you're worth the money
Speaker 1: they're thrown at you. And this is the first time
Speaker 1: we've kind of really seen a lineup from inside of
Speaker 1: the lineup room. I feel like maybe we have like
Speaker 1: I've never seen before where we're in there and like
Speaker 1: Finn is there going all right, step forward now, step
Speaker 1: back now, step forward, step back, and then you hear
Speaker 1: five knocks and then ice t tells them to go
Speaker 1: pick up their ten bucks down the hall, except number
Speaker 1: five you stay, and that's obviously Gabe. So I just
Speaker 1: hadn't seen it. Like, so inside of the lineup you know,
Speaker 1: and Gabriel is like still so confused. He's like, what's
Speaker 1: going on? And Finn's like, you should have stayed down South, dude,
Speaker 1: your game was not ready for the big city. Two
Speaker 1: of your rape victims just idd you, and the guy
Speaker 1: Gabriel is incredulous, like he cannot believe it. And that's
Speaker 1: the end of Act one, and now the top of
Speaker 1: Act two, Daddy Craigan and the gang are talking to
Speaker 1: Sherry and she's like, you've got the wrong guy. And
Speaker 1: Tomorrow is like, all right, let me go in and
Speaker 1: talk to Gabriel and get his side of the story,
Speaker 1: and Rollins is like, I would love to take the confession.
Speaker 1: Like Rollins is hyped on getting into a room with
Speaker 1: this guy, and Sherry's like, if you go in there
Speaker 1: with your minds made up, which is basically what they
Speaker 1: do ninety nine percent of the time on this show
Speaker 1: and in real life, she goes, I will advise him
Speaker 1: to shut up. And so Craigan asked Sherry, like, give
Speaker 1: us a minute, and we see more of Rolins, like
Speaker 1: thirsty as hell to nail this guy, and she's like
Speaker 1: and they're like, look, calm down, we're waiting on the
Speaker 1: DNA and the fingerprint, and she's just like, put me
Speaker 1: in coach, like, let me take a run at. And
Speaker 1: while we're waiting, Craigie gives her a little taste of
Speaker 1: Manhattan's view and tells Benson tomorrow to take the lead
Speaker 1: rollins you watch with me. So she gets benched and
Speaker 1: she's not happy, but she's like, whatever you say, Captain.
Speaker 1: So in interrogation, Gabriel is like, I'm squeaky clean, you guys.
Speaker 1: I've got like nothing, I've only got parking tickets or whatever.
Speaker 1: And they're like, what about this domestic in ninety four
Speaker 1: and he's like, that was an argument with a college
Speaker 1: girlfriend her a neighbor called the cops. It was fifteen
Speaker 1: years ago. It's not a big deal. And you do
Speaker 1: see him get a little bit angry. He's like, I'd
Speaker 1: like to look up what your guys backgrounds, you know,
Speaker 1: And we find out that he is a pharmaceutical rep.
Speaker 1: He just got a promotion and he moved to New
Speaker 1: York City in June, and he moved there from Geneva, Switzerland,
Speaker 1: which is where he's lived for the past three years,
Speaker 1: because that's where his company's headquartered. Before that, he was
Speaker 1: a sales rep in Georgia, South Carolina, and Maryland, and
Speaker 1: he's like, they're like, we're going to need your employment
Speaker 1: records because, as we know and they know, he's just
Speaker 1: put himself at the place of every single rape that's happened.
Speaker 1: And he's like, yeah, take my employment records, anything you need.
Speaker 1: He's still being extremely helpful coming out of the room.
Speaker 1: Benson's like he had the opportunity to exclude himself, but
Speaker 1: he didn't. And Amarro's like, I thought he was supposed
Speaker 1: to be obsessed with blondes. He hasn't even noticed. Rawlin's
Speaker 1: it's like, okay, is that shade And she's like no, no, no,
Speaker 1: he likes submissives, like I'm too strong for him or whatever.
Speaker 1: And Craigan's like, let's just go check out the work records.
Speaker 1: Guys like go go, let's dot our eyes and so
Speaker 1: so now the gang is all gathered around in the
Speaker 1: workroom and Novak's there too, and they're figuring out that
Speaker 1: Gabriel's whereabouts line up exactly with every attack, like every
Speaker 1: place that he was is a place where there was
Speaker 1: a rape. And then there were no rapes in Switzerland
Speaker 1: that they know of, Craigan's asking Interpol. Kraigan loves to
Speaker 1: ask Interpol. Interpol's probably not getting back to them about this.
Speaker 1: And then he came back to New York City and
Speaker 1: there's been two rapes in three months, and they found
Speaker 1: in his bike bag a screwdriver and a knife, which
Speaker 1: fits the m O and Amarro's like, yeah, that's also what,
Speaker 1: like every bicyclist has in their bike bag. I didn't
Speaker 1: really know what bicyclists had a knife in their bag,
Speaker 1: but I guess you know, it is New York. Anyone
Speaker 1: else think it's weird? He just offered that all up,
Speaker 1: Like Tomorrow's like, why would he just tell us all that?
Speaker 1: And Novak's like, is he always like this because he's
Speaker 1: new too, right, Amorrow's like a new guy also, and
Speaker 1: then Live gets an alert on her tiny twenty eleven
Speaker 1: iPhone and boom, the DNA is a match to the
Speaker 1: first four victims and Danielle. Because Danielle got the root,
Speaker 1: so we're able to link to these first four rapes
Speaker 1: where he forgot to wear a condom. So Rollin says,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna call my captain in Atlanta and tell him
Speaker 1: the good news, and she's like grinning, But I'm like,
Speaker 1: isn't that Harry Hamlin who like assaulted you that you
Speaker 1: hate your captain? But Craigan compliments Rollins on a job
Speaker 1: well done. But you can see by Amorrow's face that
Speaker 1: like something about this is not sitting right for him.
Speaker 1: So he goes and sees Gabriel in holding and he says,
Speaker 1: Gabriel tells Tomorrow like the DNA results have to be wrong,
Speaker 1: like something is up here, And Tomorrow's like, is there
Speaker 1: anything you want to tell me? Something you didn't want
Speaker 1: your wife to know or maybe you didn't want to
Speaker 1: say in front of you pretty attorney. And he says no,
Speaker 1: and Tomorrow's like, look, I saw these girls, Like he's
Speaker 1: basically saying, like they're all hot, like maybe they sent
Speaker 1: you mixed signals. And I think that's kind of what
Speaker 1: makes it tough to know if we like Tomorrow, because
Speaker 1: when he says stuff like that, you can't always tell
Speaker 1: if he's like just playing the purp or if he
Speaker 1: kind of believes that shit a little bit, like no.
Speaker 2: He's a t women can sells no he is.
Speaker 1: But sometimes I think that's why people are are on
Speaker 1: and off about Tomorrow because sometimes He's like, I don't know.
Speaker 1: The girls seem pretty into it.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: Sometimes he does say shit like that, but yes, there's
Speaker 1: no way that there can be mixed signals that lead
Speaker 1: to being raped at knife point. Let's get that out
Speaker 1: of the way. And he says, I've never even seen
Speaker 1: any of these victims before. That's what Gabriel says. He's like,
Speaker 1: I don't even know who they are. I've never seen them.
Speaker 1: And Tomorrow immediately plays the kid card. He's like, if
Speaker 1: you ever want to see Luke ever again, tell me
Speaker 1: everything right now. I'll make sure you do time in
Speaker 1: New York where they can visit you. And Gabriel's like,
Speaker 1: I will not do anything. I will not admit to
Speaker 1: something I didn't do. And guess what, your rapist is
Speaker 1: still out there, and Amarro cuffs him. I don't really
Speaker 1: know why he's cuffing, and maybe to take him to arrayment.
Speaker 1: So now we're at arraiment and Gabriel pleads not guilty
Speaker 1: and Novak's like, no, son, there's DNA, and Sherry's like
Speaker 1: this is a family man, and the judge is like, yeah, sorry,
Speaker 1: you are going to Rikers, sir. It does not matter
Speaker 1: that you have a family, and Gabriel is like exchanging
Speaker 1: looks with his wife and she looks pissed. Then he's
Speaker 1: like pleading with her like, Jane, I didn't do this,
Speaker 1: I didn't do this, like and she's like, I mean
Speaker 1: the wife looks like DNA. Don't lie, pal, that's like
Speaker 1: what the look in her eyes says. So Amaro and
Speaker 1: Finn are now at like the processing area, I think
Speaker 1: where they're like about to take him to Rikers, and
Speaker 1: they're talking sports or some shit with one of the
Speaker 1: cops and then another cop comes running in and he's like,
Speaker 1: we got a bleeder. We got a bleeder. And they
Speaker 1: go and they find Gabriel in the holding cell, bleeding
Speaker 1: out on the floor in his court clothes, having cut
Speaker 1: his wrists. And now Mar's like, you're gonna be okay,
Speaker 1: You're gonna be okay, and he's like, you tell my wife,
Speaker 1: I never raped anyone. Tell my son. So that is
Speaker 1: his like what he what we think could be his
Speaker 1: dying last words, is that he did not commit these crimes.
Speaker 1: And then Finn screams for a medic and that is
Speaker 1: the very dramatic end to that act. Next up we
Speaker 1: see Amaroon Benson talking to a doctor outside of a
Speaker 1: hospital room. We see Gabriel through the window. It looks
Speaker 1: like he made it, and the doctor says, I haven't
Speaker 1: done a PsychEval yet, but he's lost a lot of blood,
Speaker 1: and Benson goes, yeah, we've seen this, like if a
Speaker 1: guy finally gets caught takes the easy way out. But
Speaker 1: now Janey, his wife, is at his bedside and he's
Speaker 1: asking like, well, what did you tell Luke And she's like,
Speaker 1: I told him you were on a long business trip.
Speaker 1: And he's like very furious, like rattling his like his
Speaker 1: cuffs on the bed of the hospital and being like,
Speaker 1: I can't believe you think I could do this, And
Speaker 1: she's like I'm sorry, but it's like who could blame her?
Speaker 1: Like there is DNA like he was in all the
Speaker 1: places where it happened. It doesn't look great. And how
Speaker 1: many women have we seen on like Oxygen and in
Speaker 1: true crime podcasts who are like I never saw a
Speaker 1: thing coming and he was a great husband and whatever,
Speaker 1: like the BTK Killer How to Wife the whole time,
Speaker 1: Ted Bundy's girlfriend ten Buddy had a girlfriend the whole time,
Speaker 1: Like it's not impossible for you to be married to
Speaker 1: someone you didn't know the truth about. So anyway, Amaro
Speaker 1: is trying to figure out a way that this guy's innocent.
Speaker 1: He asked the doctor like, is there any way this
Speaker 1: guy could have like committed these crimes with no awareness
Speaker 1: of it? She says, I've never seen it, but there
Speaker 1: are psychiatrists who would say yes, and those are the
Speaker 1: ones he's going to hire to go on the stand.
Speaker 1: And they're like, what about the suic's side attempt as
Speaker 1: a way to bolster in insanity defense? And she said,
Speaker 1: we had a guy once try to chew his arm
Speaker 1: off to convince the jury that he was crazy, and
Speaker 1: guess what, it worked, So who knows, you know. And
Speaker 1: the wife comes out and Benson tries to talk to
Speaker 1: her about Gabriel and like saying, I think he's going
Speaker 1: to be okay, and she's like, spare me that bullshit.
Speaker 1: You don't care about Gabriel, And she's just saying kind
Speaker 1: of like what I was just talking about, Like I
Speaker 1: can't believe I was married to someone for fifteen years.
Speaker 1: I never saw any signs of this, And Benson's like,
Speaker 1: you know, true pet predators are really masterful at covering
Speaker 1: their tracks, and Janie's crying and saying his crimes make
Speaker 1: her sick, but she can't leave him. He has no
Speaker 1: Family's an only child, and his parents died within six
Speaker 1: months of each other when he was in college. And
Speaker 1: then she tells this whole story about how she had
Speaker 1: a miscarriage one time and Gabriel was right by her side,
Speaker 1: never even took time to wash the makeup off, and
Speaker 1: they're like, what do you mean makeup? And she's like,
Speaker 1: it was Halloween. He was in Captain Jack outfit and
Speaker 1: his eyeliner ran when he cried, and so there, of
Speaker 1: course that's like ding ding ding alarm bells for tomorrow.
Speaker 1: He's like, Halloween of what year? And Tomorrow is like,
Speaker 1: obviously onto something and it was Halloween of two thousand
Speaker 1: and three. So now Amorrow is outside at some kind
Speaker 1: of like food cart flirting with Sherry Rest's Sherry West.
Speaker 1: It looks like a waffle truck maybe, and he's asking her, like,
Speaker 1: you got any alternate theories of these crimes, and she's like,
Speaker 1: what are you gloating? And then Amorrow's like, I think
Speaker 1: you should look into Halloween of two thousand and three.
Speaker 1: We got a man in two places at the same time.
Speaker 1: So now at the precinct, Amorrow looks kind of tired
Speaker 1: and stressed, and Munch goes, what's bugging you, new guy?
Speaker 1: I just I do miss Munch. I feel like Lisa
Speaker 1: and I have talked about this, but there's not as
Speaker 1: much funniness in the show since Munch went away, and
Speaker 1: he just can't believe that this guy. Tomorrow just can't
Speaker 1: believe that this guy could play him like that because
Speaker 1: he kind of really believes the guy, and he's like,
Speaker 1: why am I feeling this way that he's innocent when
Speaker 1: it's so clear he's guilty. Munch is like, I missed
Speaker 1: the days where we didn't rely on DNA. We went
Speaker 1: with our gut, and I would say I think a
Speaker 1: lot of wrongfully incarcerated people who have been exonerated by
Speaker 1: DNA do not miss those days, mister Munch. I know
Speaker 1: that that's like a fun thing, but DNA is usually
Speaker 1: pretty correct. So now Amorrow is talking to DNA tech
Speaker 1: Susan Chung, who is played by Karen sen Lee, and
Speaker 1: this is her first episode out of nine episodes she
Speaker 1: plays as this character, but she has also played two
Speaker 1: other one time roles on SVU episodes, and more recently,
Speaker 1: she played Christine Chang, the evil trafficker in The Counselor
Speaker 1: It's Chinatown episodes. So she is all over SVU this woman,
Speaker 1: but this is her first role as Susan Chung and
Speaker 1: she has been in nine episodes as her. And she's
Speaker 1: telling Tomorrow, there's no way this idea is not legit.
Speaker 1: There's too many matching points. It would be virtually impossible.
Speaker 1: There's like not enough people existing in New York that
Speaker 1: could make it that there's another person that this belongs to.
Speaker 1: And Tomorrow is like, yeah, but there's been like DNA
Speaker 1: lab scandals lately where people are trying to pad conviction rates,
Speaker 1: and she goes so all four labs in different states,
Speaker 1: including Hours, one of the best in the country, conspired
Speaker 1: together to take Gabriel down. You got a motive, and.
Speaker 2: It's like, loll come on tomorrow, like you look really dumb.
Speaker 1: You look so dumb right now?
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 1: In Cragan's office, Amarro walks in with some interesting info.
Speaker 1: The victim from the Halloween assault says her rapist had
Speaker 1: a chip tooth and a long abdominal scar. Gabriel has
Speaker 1: perfect teeth and he was one hundred miles away that
Speaker 1: night at Johns Hopkins, and there are witnesses that say
Speaker 1: he never left, and Amorro's like someone could have planted
Speaker 1: his DNA and Craigan is like, and what stopped after
Speaker 1: the fourth rape? Like that's kind of you're pushing it.
Speaker 1: And Craigan's like he can can tell that Tomorrow's really invested.
Speaker 1: And the Halloween things seems suspicious. So what do we
Speaker 1: know about the family. Benson and Tomorrow go to find
Speaker 1: out at the hospital. Gabriel tells them that he's an
Speaker 1: only child as far as he knows, and they're like what,
Speaker 1: and he's like, I was adopted, and he says he's
Speaker 1: never contacted his biological mom because he was never interested.
Speaker 1: And he tells them that his adoptive parents were great
Speaker 1: people and he was raised right because he thought that
Speaker 1: they were trying to, like, you know, say that he
Speaker 1: was traumatized by his adoption and that's why he committed
Speaker 1: these crimes. And so now we're at a halfway house
Speaker 1: in Trenton, New Jersey, and there's a woman sitting at
Speaker 1: a table just ripping butts indoors and there's a huge
Speaker 1: ashtray next to her like that's her full time job,
Speaker 1: is smoking SIGs inside and she tells them how she
Speaker 1: got pregnant seventeen around nineteen seventy five or seventy six.
Speaker 1: She couldn't even take care of herself, let alone two babies.
Speaker 1: And they're like, wait, twins, dun dun, dun dunn, here
Speaker 1: we go. If the name of the episode didn't give
Speaker 1: you a little hinty hint, we're getting to it now.
Speaker 1: And she goes. Benson goes, so they didn't go to
Speaker 1: the same home, and the woman goes, yeah, back then
Speaker 1: they separated identical some crazy experiment, but they paid me
Speaker 1: a lot. Have you seen the documentary or heard of
Speaker 1: the documentary Three Identical Strangers?
Speaker 2: You know it? Bitch watched it on a Delta fly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's this, This is it basically like at
Speaker 1: this I think those guys were a little bit older.
Speaker 1: Maybe they were separated in like the sixties, but.
Speaker 2: And filled with tragedy. I mean, there's like ethics and
Speaker 2: science and experiments and you don't get to just like
Speaker 2: take and separate babies and see what happens like these
Speaker 2: those three men were.
Speaker 1: Fucked, yeah, very traumatized, and it's just like you're not
Speaker 1: allowed to kind of like take people away from the
Speaker 1: only family.
Speaker 4: Well, and the other.
Speaker 2: Case that we covered with the twins, you know, the
Speaker 2: gender twins cutting off a dick and seeing what happens. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I forgot. Yeah, yeah, there was more like.
Speaker 1: Using twins as experiments is very unethical, for sure.
Speaker 2: Super ethical. I did mention Delta. I don't know if uh.
Speaker 2: This weekend at one of my shows, there was a
Speaker 2: Delta pilot in the audience. It was exciting. I walked
Speaker 2: on stage and pointed at him and went, I'm Diamond bitch,
Speaker 2: and it was fun. But the cops were actually called
Speaker 2: that show. There was like hecklers, a full fight like
Speaker 2: we saw like cops. Yeah, because this guy was heckling
Speaker 2: one of my friends and wouldn't stop. So the security
Speaker 2: was like, hey, you gotta stop, and he wouldn't. And
Speaker 2: then it was a full like I went to just
Speaker 2: get paid and I came back and a guy was
Speaker 2: shoved against a wall two security guards that are all
Speaker 2: x NYPD, just like a full punch knockout, and then
Speaker 2: the cops said to be there and asked all these
Speaker 2: questions after it was Jesus, it was really wild. New York.
Speaker 1: Never a dull moment.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So anyway, Yeah, that waitress during right after the fight,
Speaker 2: this comic was like, Okay, my set will be back.
Speaker 2: I'll get them back. A waitress dropped a whole tray.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, just walk off stage.
Speaker 1: Forget it. Forget it. Call that subtle wash. So this
Speaker 1: woman says, this biological mom says that she has heard
Speaker 1: from one of the twins, and she's heard from Brian,
Speaker 1: and he came to visit her twenty years ago. She
Speaker 1: doesn't know where he is, but she says, I read
Speaker 1: about him in the paper. He had it tough because
Speaker 1: it turned out that Brian's adopted parents the mother killed
Speaker 1: the father, drugged him and burned him in front of Brian.
Speaker 1: And she's like, I think it happened in Richmond, maybe Norfolk,
Speaker 1: so it's somewhere in Virginia. And then he came to
Speaker 1: see her again a couple months after the trial, and
Speaker 1: he was looking for a relationship and she said, I
Speaker 1: already gave him up once. He should have taken the hint.
Speaker 1: So she's not exactly mom material. And she definitely told
Speaker 1: him that he had a twin, and he said he
Speaker 1: always knew something was missing, so and.
Speaker 2: That mom is such a bitch, Like she's like, ah right,
Speaker 2: the violins are playing. I don't give us yeah yeah,
Speaker 2: yeah care. He has this brother and someone was burnt
Speaker 2: in front of him at Hugh and he's like John
Speaker 2: Mira's vibes.
Speaker 1: He's not asking for like money, He's just like, hey,
Speaker 1: could we like maybe visit once in a while and
Speaker 1: have a relationship. And she's like not interested. I've got
Speaker 1: some more cigarettes to smoke. I really have to go.
Speaker 1: So now we're getting the low down on the whole
Speaker 1: murder of Brian's adopted dad. It was nineteen ninety two.
Speaker 1: The mom got the death penalty, and that Brian's name
Speaker 1: is Brian Smith and Munch is like, good luck with that,
Speaker 1: and there's got to be a million Brian Smiths. Iced
Speaker 1: Tea is like, oh no, there's one hundred and twenty
Speaker 1: six Brian Smiths in New York. And Rollins is like, guys,
Speaker 1: they're twins. Let's check out the birthday. So they find
Speaker 1: one match and this is a guy who was a
Speaker 1: provisional for the Parks Department. He started that job this year.
Speaker 1: As the photo downloads, we see bump bum bump, bump, bump,
Speaker 1: bump bum. It is tr Night again. It is the
Speaker 1: same fucking guy. There is an identical Twins situation happening here,
Speaker 1: and the squad is shook Amorrow, like, let's go get
Speaker 1: this guy, and Craigan's like, we gotta fill in Novak.
Speaker 1: There's some issues here, hold on, like cause you know,
Speaker 1: there's all kinds of I don't know, not double jeopardy,
Speaker 1: but like different kinds of reasonable doubt things so that
Speaker 1: they have.
Speaker 2: To check on.
Speaker 1: So Amara is like giving Rollins kind of like and
Speaker 1: I told you so face, and Rollin's just just like,
Speaker 1: I mean, who could have imagined that?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like obviously she's a dumb bitch for other reasons,
Speaker 2: but like, how you're right, Like how do we know
Speaker 2: that there's a hidden double Twins somewhere? Right?
Speaker 1: And we've seen plenty of like buttoned up guys, but
Speaker 1: I mean, Amaro just had a feeling about this guy.
Speaker 1: And so they go see Novak and she's fucking lit up.
Speaker 1: She's like this is the definition of reasonable doubt, Like
Speaker 1: this is fucked Like, we're never gonna be able to
Speaker 1: get anyone on these rapes now. And they're like, no,
Speaker 1: Brian's plan has been to frame his twin. He's followed
Speaker 1: him city to city and she's like, yeah, but like,
Speaker 1: we cannot prove which one did it if they have
Speaker 1: the same DNA and like the same tattoo and like
Speaker 1: identification from victims. And they're like, what if we catch
Speaker 1: Brian in the act. Let's let him think that Gabriel's
Speaker 1: on the loose again. And then Lovak's like what and
Speaker 1: terrorize New York City And they're like, we set a
Speaker 1: trap and we've got the perfect.
Speaker 2: Little blondie to do it. Rollins is like, put me
Speaker 2: in the game.
Speaker 1: So in court, I.
Speaker 2: Wonder if Rollins knew that this would be the beginning
Speaker 2: of her long stretch of being bait.
Speaker 1: I meantly bait. I feel like she's probably one of
Speaker 1: the only detectives that can like jog continuously in the
Speaker 1: park for a long time. She's so in shape. So
Speaker 1: in the in court, the judge is releasing Gabriel on
Speaker 1: two hundred and fifty thousand dollars bail. He's kind of like,
Speaker 1: on second thought, I do release you on bail. It's
Speaker 1: because we've already seen him be denied bail, so now
Speaker 1: he's getting out on two hundred and fifty k bail
Speaker 1: and you're confined to the state of New York and
Speaker 1: you have to continue psych treatment. And so now in
Speaker 1: holding Gabriel is very confused talking to Tomorrow. He's like,
Speaker 1: if I'm free, why am I not at home? Like
Speaker 1: what's going on? My lawyer won't even tell me what's
Speaker 1: going on? And Tomorrow is like, you'll know everything once
Speaker 1: we have it sorted out, just like sit tight, and
Speaker 1: he's like, do I have any choice? And the answer
Speaker 1: is no, you don't. Okay. So now the top of
Speaker 1: the final act, we are on Rollin's jogging through Central
Speaker 1: Park with her perky little ponytails swaying in the breeze,
Speaker 1: and she's asking through an earpiece, like do we have
Speaker 1: eyes on him? So we're watching this trap in motion.
Speaker 1: Amorrow is nearby and he's like, you know, he's been
Speaker 1: watching you for four days and all he's done is
Speaker 1: snap a few picks. Maybe you're not his type after all,
Speaker 1: and Rollin's okay, yeah, She's like fuck you. She's like,
Speaker 1: I'm your type for Amorro. And so Rollins stops to
Speaker 1: stretch and we see Brian staring at her and he does.
Speaker 1: He is the same as tier Nite, but he's got
Speaker 1: like more of like a sort of emo haircut, and
Speaker 1: he does look like he's wearing eyeliner. I don't know
Speaker 1: if that's real, but he has like a darker under
Speaker 1: eye situation, and they think she's hooked him. He starts
Speaker 1: following her on his bike, and Tomorrow's also on a
Speaker 1: bike following, but then he like runs into a nanny
Speaker 1: and that completely throws his entire thing off track and
Speaker 1: he loses Rollin's and she's still jogging and I'm like, wow,
Speaker 1: this must have been a very exhausting scene because I'm
Speaker 1: sure they shot it more than ones. And she's like
Speaker 1: NonStop jogging. Maybe it's because I just hate running that
Speaker 1: this is really triggering me. And Tomorrow asks her to
Speaker 1: update her location, but all we hear is static and
Speaker 1: he and then we see her like jogging through a tunnel.
Speaker 1: We see him right behind her. She can obviously feel
Speaker 1: him right behind her, and then just coming out of
Speaker 1: the tunnel, he skids his bike right in front of her,
Speaker 1: stops her, knocking her to the ground, and like before
Speaker 1: we know it, he's on top of her with a
Speaker 1: knife to her neck and Rollins is like, so so down,
Speaker 1: so down. I'll give you what.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think she's scared, Like is this going to
Speaker 2: be traumatizing for her? Or is this just like, oh,
Speaker 2: part of the job, Like that's what I was wondering.
Speaker 1: I think it's like at the time, she's probably just
Speaker 1: like running on adrenaline and is like, I know I
Speaker 1: can talk this guy out of it, or I can
Speaker 1: like stop this guy until someone comes to help me.
Speaker 1: You know, it is kind of wild. This is all
Speaker 1: happening in broad daylight too, Like I feel like it
Speaker 1: seems most of the attacks have been at night, but
Speaker 1: this one is broad daylight, and it's hard to find
Speaker 1: places in Central Park where there's truly like nobody in
Speaker 1: the middle of the day, like it's very populated, but
Speaker 1: you know, here they are. And Amanda's like, I got that,
Speaker 1: like it's okay, it's okay, I'll give you.
Speaker 2: What you want or whatever.
Speaker 1: And he's like, look at me, like doing the same
Speaker 1: kind of shit, like look in my eyes, and Tomorrow
Speaker 1: finally gets there surprises him. When he sees Tomorrow, he
Speaker 1: like looks up and then Rollins punches him across the
Speaker 1: face and gets him off of her then Amorrow jumps
Speaker 1: on him and just starts punching the fuck out of
Speaker 1: this guy, and Rollins is like, enough enough, and then
Speaker 1: afterwards she's like and then eventually, you know, he gets
Speaker 1: off of him, and she's like, what the fuck, Tomorrow,
Speaker 1: are you like trying to blow this case? Like stop
Speaker 1: with your stabler bullshit? We just got rid of one stabler,
Speaker 1: we don't need another one. So at the precinct, Rollins
Speaker 1: is like begging to be able to question this dude,
Speaker 1: which Novak is like, in no way is that going
Speaker 1: to happen, Like he had just attacked you, and a
Speaker 1: defense attorney will have that completely thrown out, like anything
Speaker 1: you say to him. So then we're in interrogation with
Speaker 1: Brian and he's trying to say, oh, she came on
Speaker 1: to me, like in the tunnel like and Finn's like,
Speaker 1: oh really, so why the knife, Like we've got you dude,
Speaker 1: like you don't like whip out a knife when a
Speaker 1: woman comes on to you. And so Brian says, you
Speaker 1: don't even know the half of it. And he says,
Speaker 1: but I will only talk to her the blonde, so
Speaker 1: and Finn's like there's no way, and he goes okay, lawyer,
Speaker 1: so he knows what's up. He lawyers up the second
Speaker 1: that they don't let him talk to his little girlfriend
Speaker 1: and they're outside talking to Novak about it and everything,
Speaker 1: and they're like, so if he doesn't talk to the blonde,
Speaker 1: he walks and Benson like pushes for Rollins to get
Speaker 1: allowed in there, and then they allow it. So she's
Speaker 1: in there now and he's like, you look so much
Speaker 1: prettier when you smile, like he does that to her
Speaker 1: and it's like, ugh, I think like that should be
Speaker 1: in a legal phrase. And now Rollins is laying down
Speaker 1: her signature flirtatious interrogation style. This is where we're seeing
Speaker 1: the beginning of it, right, And she's like, I've been
Speaker 1: wanting to talk to you for a while. I'm a
Speaker 1: Southern girl. I named you.
Speaker 2: I've been obsessed with you, like I always thought I
Speaker 2: was your type.
Speaker 1: Like it's a whole thing. She's really going in laying
Speaker 1: it on thick, and he's like, hell, yeah, you're my type.
Speaker 1: And she's like you're the best and he's like I
Speaker 1: am the best and it's freaky, and then she's like
Speaker 1: he's like, but you teased me in the park. And
Speaker 1: he's like, oh, like all the other girls. And the
Speaker 1: guy's like, oh, no, that was my brother, Like he
Speaker 1: kind of knows, like he's walking the line of like,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm awesome at what I do, but also
Speaker 1: I didn't do anything. And then she explains that the
Speaker 1: whole follow your brother in pin rapes on him theory,
Speaker 1: and he's like no, no, no, you said that. That's
Speaker 1: not me. And then she goes, why don't you lift
Speaker 1: up your shirt and he's like what. She goes, lift
Speaker 1: up your shirt for me, baby, I want to show
Speaker 1: you something. So she's really like laying it on thick
Speaker 1: and he lifts it up and we see the scar
Speaker 1: that other victims have talked about and she's like, yeah, see,
Speaker 1: the thing is your twin doesn't have that scar and
Speaker 1: he also doesn't have a chip tooth, and we have
Speaker 1: victims that saw both of those. And he's like it
Speaker 1: was dark. Witnesses make mistakes, you know that. And she
Speaker 1: presses him on that Halloween rape and is like, you
Speaker 1: know what, your brother was one hundred miles away that
Speaker 1: night with witnesses. And she brings up the screwdriver with
Speaker 1: the fingerprint and she's like, that's kind of sloppy work
Speaker 1: for you. And she's like, cause you you know, twins
Speaker 1: have the same DNA but different fingerprints, So like, once
Speaker 1: we get that fingerprint back comparing it to yours, it's
Speaker 1: not going to look good for you. But you knew
Speaker 1: that and that's why you started wearing gloves. And so
Speaker 1: she starts talking about how he had it so hard
Speaker 1: in his life and he was with this kind of
Speaker 1: crazy family where there was this murder and Gabriel had
Speaker 1: this nice family, great parents. Now he's married, with a
Speaker 1: good job and a beautiful son, and like that's not fair.
Speaker 1: And then she brings up what his biological mother said
Speaker 1: about giving him up and about him not taking the
Speaker 1: hint the first time, and he's like, she's a drunk
Speaker 1: whore who cares, and Rollins is like, well, she sure
Speaker 1: made time to take care of Gabriel. She made sure
Speaker 1: he got a good home, she sent him birthday cards.
Speaker 1: Like I don't think any of that's true, but like she's,
Speaker 1: you know, she's leaning into it, and he insists. He's like, no,
Speaker 1: I had good parents. I had good parents, and Rollin's
Speaker 1: is like, yeah, dude, your mom's a murderer. Like so
Speaker 1: it don't try to like run that game on me.
Speaker 1: And he insists that it didn't break him, and she
Speaker 1: says that would break anyone, and she's she really gets
Speaker 1: it's like vulnerable with him and is like, I just
Speaker 1: think no one's ever really listened to you. I want
Speaker 1: to hear your whole story, not just these mistakes. I've
Speaker 1: got all night. I'm not leaving you, and she says,
Speaker 1: look at me, look at my face, like kind of
Speaker 1: repeats his words to him, and that's like the next
Speaker 1: that's the last we see of like this horny little
Speaker 1: interrogation scene with Rollins, and we cut to Gabriel in
Speaker 1: his holding cell and they tell him it's over. You're free,
Speaker 1: and he's like what happened? Like what is going on?
Speaker 1: And then Amaro's like, we found the guy and they
Speaker 1: lead him to the two way glass where they show
Speaker 1: him his twin brother inside the whole, inside the interrogation room.
Speaker 1: He's obviously shocked. He's like, I didn't know, and then
Speaker 1: Amarro goes he did, And that's Dick Wolf Baby a
Speaker 1: complete classic in my opinion.
Speaker 2: Damn no, it's an amazing episode, and even though I've
Speaker 2: seen it so many times, I'm stressed every time I
Speaker 2: watch it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm like, come on, why do you think he
Speaker 1: did that? Like he like the whole thing was based
Speaker 1: on framing his brother for it, So like, why do
Speaker 1: you think he did that that Halloween one? Like, if
Speaker 1: you know your brother's one hundred miles away, why did
Speaker 1: you do that?
Speaker 2: Well? Maybebe if he did arriage was a.
Speaker 1: Last minute thing and he didn't know they were going all.
Speaker 1: But did they drive one hundred miles to Johns Hopkins?
Speaker 1: I guess so it's a great hospital. You're right, that's
Speaker 1: probably what happened.
Speaker 2: I didn't say it. You just talked to yourself. I
Speaker 2: did not even say anything. But also, maybe he is
Speaker 2: super calculated. But then like, let's say he sees a hottie. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and a crime of opportunity opportunity versus like planning. So
Speaker 2: but I'm also basing on the true crime that I'm
Speaker 2: thinking of, where he didn't there was no rhyme and reason,
Speaker 2: So like, you know, maybe the urge is just too
Speaker 2: big to murder and slash.
Speaker 1: I mean, race, I cannot wait to hear about this.
Speaker 1: I have no idea about this.
Speaker 2: Well, there's a couple case. Everything is nuts. It's as
Speaker 2: nuts as the episode. Let's let's do that. We'll get
Speaker 2: into the commercial. We'll see you soon. Okay, we are back.
Speaker 2: There's two cases, and I love that.
Speaker 1: I love when they just mash up two cases perfectly
Speaker 1: into one beautiful SVU omelet.
Speaker 2: I think these are well mixed. I mean, obviously the
Speaker 2: twin case is overwhelming, but then the other one has
Speaker 2: lots of stuff and it's they're both really really fucked.
Speaker 2: The other case had a name, you know what I mean,
Speaker 2: the East Coast Rapists. So yeah, it's like, if you
Speaker 2: have a name that means I guess you're there, should
Speaker 2: be prolific with a negative connotation. Yeah, because you've got
Speaker 2: our famous, notorious notorious there we go, all right. So
Speaker 2: the first case is Darren Fernandez case. And in two
Speaker 2: thousand and one, Darren Fernandez attempted to break into an
Speaker 2: apartment in Dorchester, which is a neighborhood in Boston. Dorchester. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and he smashed the window to get inside. Amateur move
Speaker 2: because the person now inside is alerted that someone broke
Speaker 2: their window. And also he cut himself and left blood
Speaker 2: everywhere as he fled. So and when the police found
Speaker 2: him in like a chase, he was still bleeding, So
Speaker 2: the police analyzed the DNA from the broken glass they found,
Speaker 2: and he was a match for genetic material found in
Speaker 2: two unsolved sexual assault cases, both of which were committed
Speaker 2: within a few blocks of the apartment Fernandez had tried
Speaker 2: to break into. Fernandez was convicted of attempted breaking and
Speaker 2: entering and also eventually convicted of one of the sexual assaults.
Speaker 2: So then the other cases, though they only had DNA evidence,
Speaker 2: no other evidence, and that's obviously a huge issue because
Speaker 2: his DNA matched his twin brother, Damien. So how do
Speaker 2: you convict someone for a thing where the only evidence
Speaker 2: is DNA. So there was DNA found on the pillowcase,
Speaker 2: and it could be either brother, even though the other
Speaker 2: brother is like chill, But again it's the reasonable doubt situation.
Speaker 2: And so also so during the first assault, the victim
Speaker 2: noticed the tattoo that his brother did not have, so
Speaker 2: it was easier to convict, and the tattoo said twins
Speaker 2: with a z oh my God. So the second assault,
Speaker 2: though no witnesses or accomplices or fingerprints, and then Darren
Speaker 2: nor Damien had an alibi to cover the time of
Speaker 2: the assault of that one, so it was just kind
Speaker 2: of difficult, and the police couldn't place either brother at
Speaker 2: the scene of the crime, and the DNA that damned
Speaker 2: Darren in the other trial had only established reasonable doubt
Speaker 2: in this one, and so the case went to trial
Speaker 2: anyways in two thousand and four. The jury, after four
Speaker 2: days of deliberation, could not decide, and it was a
Speaker 2: hung jury in a mistrial.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2: Then there was a second trial several months later in
Speaker 2: two thousand and five, which also ended up in a
Speaker 2: hung jury and a mistrial. But those deadlocked cases the
Speaker 2: victim did not testify about the tattoo, and the jurors
Speaker 2: were never told about Darren's earlier conviction. THESS tattoo is huge.
Speaker 2: Why would that not be it? No, there's like so
Speaker 2: many of it is. It's strange, Oh my god, go on,
Speaker 2: but we hear this shit all the time where it's
Speaker 2: like people's past arm brought up. Yeah, things just it.
Speaker 2: It's people, human errors, people do bad jobs or don't care,
Speaker 2: like don't think about it, or something was suppressed like
Speaker 2: I don't fucking know. Yeah. The prosecution brought up now though,
Speaker 2: that Darren was working as a painter near where the
Speaker 2: assault occurred, but that again is still not enough. So
Speaker 2: two thousand and six, Holy shit, Fernandez goes on trial
Speaker 2: for a third time, and this time the prosecution for
Speaker 2: the first time was able to present evidence that they
Speaker 2: weren't able to before, which was that he had committed
Speaker 2: four break ins in this in the victim's neighborhood within
Speaker 2: a year and convicted of one sexual assault too. In
Speaker 2: August of two thousand, the victim of that assault, who
Speaker 2: did not testify at the previous two trials, took the
Speaker 2: stand this time around to highlight the similarities of her
Speaker 2: attack that like shared with the case. Damian Fernandez also
Speaker 2: testified at all the trials and that he was in Worcester,
Speaker 2: Worcester worst I knew it wors just tester as a
Speaker 2: sauce right. Damien Fernandez testified at all the trials that
Speaker 2: he was in wor Worcester what is Worcester Worster where
Speaker 2: he lived during the time of the attack. The jury
Speaker 2: finally returned with a guilty verdict, and five years after
Speaker 2: his initial arrest, Darren Fernandez was sentenced to fifteen to
Speaker 2: twenty years in jail on top of the ten to
Speaker 2: fifteen year sentence he was already serving for that first
Speaker 2: assault that they were able to convict on. He won't
Speaker 2: begin serving the second sentence until he has finished serving
Speaker 2: his first sentence. And then some article I found this
Speaker 2: has nothing to do with anything. What if conjoined twins
Speaker 2: commit a crime? What do you do?
Speaker 1: Like, only one of the twins does the crime?
Speaker 2: Yeah, like, what if you're at a bar and you're
Speaker 2: conjoined by whatever body part? Use your imaginations and.
Speaker 1: Then one of them smacks someone with a beer bottle stabs? Yeah,
Speaker 1: what did you do? I have no idea. That is wild.
Speaker 1: He's a great question.
Speaker 2: Conjoined episode. So I guess the next case is the
Speaker 2: bigger case since there's more info.
Speaker 1: So this is just like Darren. Darren had the twins tattoo,
Speaker 1: Like Darren was the one that did it.
Speaker 2: Damien. Damien is just the guy.
Speaker 1: Damien's just like I didn't do anything, but I guess
Speaker 1: I like, but he just his existence is providing reasonable
Speaker 1: doubt for his brother who's a criminal.
Speaker 2: Wow. Yeah, so it wasn't like two shady brothers or
Speaker 2: someone helping, or that Darren even did this maliciously to
Speaker 2: frame the brother or any adoption. I think he's just
Speaker 2: like a criminal, and it's just hard to prosecut if
Speaker 2: the DNA is the only evidence you have, if there's
Speaker 2: double the DNA out in the world.
Speaker 1: Do you know Jermaine Fowler is a twin?
Speaker 5: No?
Speaker 2: I didn't.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's a twin and his brother, his twin brother
Speaker 1: has gone to jail. And I think he's made like
Speaker 1: a lot of jokes about this too, like that his
Speaker 1: brother could be like committing crimes like and getting him
Speaker 1: busted for shit. I think I think I've seen Jermaine
Speaker 1: do that material.
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's like not as dramatic as the episode,
Speaker 2: but it's just the existence of twins does fuck shit up? Yeah. Now,
Speaker 2: this next case that s you found inspiration, I would say,
Speaker 2: is the Aaron H. Thomas case aka the East Coast Rapist.
Speaker 2: Born in August of nineteen seventy one. Thomas, of course
Speaker 2: the son of an officer. Okay, so he's a DC
Speaker 2: officer's kid whose nickname is Big Don. And then the
Speaker 2: mom was a career Geico employee, which is like such
Speaker 2: a like a brand name that's not it could be
Speaker 2: like she worked in insurance that they had to write
Speaker 2: that she worked at Geico, and then they're like fifteen
Speaker 2: minutes or more could save you money on your car insurance.
Speaker 2: And this is like, uh, this research was actually really
Speaker 2: annoying to do. And there's a lot there's so many
Speaker 2: dates and crimes. This is a really like notorious psychopath.
Speaker 2: So lots of dates, lots of different things, lots of
Speaker 2: conflicting information, but like in some things, they said that
Speaker 2: Aaron's father was a doting father figure, fun loving companion,
Speaker 2: but then also jealous, violent, prone to sneak out at
Speaker 2: night and pray on the vulnerable and hide his actions
Speaker 2: from everyone, like what okay, But also Thomas recalls being
Speaker 2: beat with like thick police uniform belts and his father
Speaker 2: like slamming him into walls and stuff. So like, I
Speaker 2: don't know, I guess that's like most abusive people. They're
Speaker 2: like nice sometimes and then full yeah, lunatics. Some family
Speaker 2: members described the screaming matches like lots of screaming matches,
Speaker 2: constant turmoil in the childhood, and they the brothers and
Speaker 2: like the family said that Aaron Thomas was like a
Speaker 2: class clown, fun like silly kid. But then his brother,
Speaker 2: who's this military guy, was like, excuse me, no, he
Speaker 2: was a volatile child. And always found his way into
Speaker 2: trouble and then like he was it's like he was
Speaker 2: oblivious to any consequences. And then they go into this
Speaker 2: thing where it's like, I can't believe they call this
Speaker 2: guy a class clown and funny. He beat a kid
Speaker 2: with a chain from a playground swing. Once he super
Speaker 2: glued his brother's hands to his bed, and sometimes he
Speaker 2: would sneak sleeping pills and like poison his brothers with
Speaker 2: sleeping pills to see what happened. He one time start
Speaker 2: lit fireworks indoors and started a fire. He tried drowning
Speaker 2: the family dog. So to me, it's just like strange.
Speaker 2: They're like, yeah, it was a fun family life, good dad.
Speaker 2: Actually he beat me with a belt, and then it's like, oh,
Speaker 2: class clown es, and then it's like, okay, he drowned.
Speaker 2: He almost drowned the family dog. And the brother said
Speaker 2: it was always something that he had lack of control
Speaker 2: and odd behavior, and as a teen he spent two
Speaker 2: weeks at a psychiatric facility after setting a girl's hair
Speaker 2: on fire. Oh my god, he said, accidentally. But it's
Speaker 2: like what, yeah.
Speaker 1: Not with that record of other things that you've done
Speaker 1: that doesn't really ring true.
Speaker 2: It's just hard because like we're obviously compassionate to kids,
Speaker 2: and juvenile detention sucks and the system is so fucked.
Speaker 2: But then it's also like, why was this guy ever
Speaker 2: let out of anything? Mm hmm. He's doing all the
Speaker 2: classic things that like criminals doing, like sociopaths. It's like,
Speaker 2: it's just, yeah, some people are like but he was.
Speaker 2: He's street smart, tough, physically chiseled, and unpredictable, or is
Speaker 2: his vibe. He also found love, of course, he had
Speaker 2: a girlfriend, like obviously he really bonded with her son.
Speaker 2: And the girlfriend said all the time that though he
Speaker 2: had a nearly insatiable sex tribe, and if you didn't
Speaker 2: give it to him, he took it. And she said
Speaker 2: that to the Post, the Washington Post, and sometimes when
Speaker 2: she was able to fend off his advances, he would
Speaker 2: leave for hours, and now she thinks that that's when
Speaker 2: he would go rape. So yeah, gosh. Three of his
Speaker 2: rapes were actually within a half mile from where the
Speaker 2: couple lived in Forestville in nineteen ninety seven, and then
Speaker 2: three other rapes were near their other home in Alexandria
Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety nine and he's a careless guy. He
Speaker 2: left DNA at thirteen different locations, which I think just
Speaker 2: like shows how bad police are. Like so much DNA everywhere,
Speaker 2: because this is the nineties, DNA was used. Yeah, this
Speaker 2: isn't like nighttime. Stalker guy loved One said that he
Speaker 2: hinted several times he had done terrible things, but was
Speaker 2: never specific when pressed further. So he committed a number
Speaker 2: of rapes in Maryland, Virginia, Connecticut, and Rhode Island since
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety six, and then even earlier. They just haven't
Speaker 2: caught him. But he claims that he started attacking people
Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety two ninety three, but the ones that
Speaker 2: he's charged for from nineteen ninety seven on. His crimes
Speaker 2: span nearly half of his life and gripped the region
Speaker 2: with fear that comes from knowing there's an unknown man
Speaker 2: lurking in the darkness, attacking strangers who were doing everyday
Speaker 2: tasks like walking home from work, waiting for a bus,
Speaker 2: moving out of an apartment, or even sleeping in their
Speaker 2: own bed. And the rapes began when Thomas was a
Speaker 2: young man living in a burnt out pet store in Forestville,
Speaker 2: and he called it a joyless addiction, like he couldn't stop,
Speaker 2: and then compulsion.
Speaker 1: It's like he has to do it, but he's like
Speaker 1: not even getting anything out of it.
Speaker 2: No, And later on, like in the trials and all
Speaker 2: of that, the mom remembers like to his sisters and stuff,
Speaker 2: she would be like, be careful, don't walk home and
Speaker 2: all this, and then she realized that like her son
Speaker 2: was who she's been scared of all these years. So
Speaker 2: like while telling her daughter, like don't walk home through
Speaker 2: the park at night, it was to protect her from,
Speaker 2: oh my gosh, her fucking brother. And so I thought
Speaker 2: that was pretty eerie, Like just like you're you're so
Speaker 2: scared of this kill like rapist and it's your fucking son.
Speaker 2: He said, there's no happiness. You're going after something that
Speaker 2: in the end makes you feel like garbage. He talked
Speaker 2: a lot to the Washington Post. He's a real chatty
Speaker 2: kathy but also delusional. I can't pinpoint this guy, really.
Speaker 2: He said he didn't know the victims, that they didn't
Speaker 2: know him, and even though he ruined these women's lives
Speaker 2: and they remember the attacks and very vivid and horrifying
Speaker 2: detail to him, he's like, I don't even remember their faces.
Speaker 2: He's like, I don't have any true memories.
Speaker 1: So he's like the opposite of like all these guys
Speaker 1: we've seen that are like, oh, yeah, my first crime
Speaker 1: was this place. I remember the girl exactly. Like the
Speaker 1: guys that really like fantasize about like the actual crime itself.
Speaker 1: This guy feels like it was just like a compulsion. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he's not even remembering anything about it.
Speaker 2: Wow. No, And later he goes, I didn't really even
Speaker 2: hurt them. I didn't try to, Like he really is
Speaker 2: like diluted. He's like, I love helping people, like he
Speaker 2: is sick. But his first attack that was linked by
Speaker 2: DNA occurred February nineteenth, nineteen ninety seven, in Forrest, Phille,
Speaker 2: when he was riding a ten speed bicycle. He pulled
Speaker 2: up alongside a twenty five year old woman who was
Speaker 2: walking home from her job at a fast food restaurant.
Speaker 2: He started chatting her up, and then he pulled out
Speaker 2: a gun and forced her into the nearby woods and
Speaker 2: raped her. And what's extra interesting about him and sometimes
Speaker 2: he wouldn't even use guns. It would be like umbrella
Speaker 2: like umbrella handles and ripped off things that felt like guns.
Speaker 2: But weren't. Yeah, so people were scared and thought it
Speaker 2: was a real gun, but it would just be like
Speaker 2: plastic pieces off of other things. So how he started,
Speaker 2: you know, he was living in this pet store at
Speaker 2: that was abandoned and bird down because he was kicked
Speaker 2: out of his parents' house in Fort Washington. So he
Speaker 2: was homeless, jobless and penniless and living in this pet
Speaker 2: store and you don't know, he saw sex worker walking
Speaker 2: down the street, he got her attention, and then again
Speaker 2: it's like the classic. He basically like would find people
Speaker 2: in more public spaces, lure them into the woods, and
Speaker 2: then rape. And he said he felt like an animal,
Speaker 2: but he didn't care. So throughout his like it's not
Speaker 2: a career. Throughout his spree, he straight up adducted. He
Speaker 2: like raped a woman who was in the process of
Speaker 2: moving from her Lesberg apartment. He bound her with rope,
Speaker 2: threatened her with a screwdriver before stealing her clothes and
Speaker 2: leaving her naked and on top of the screwdrivers. He
Speaker 2: used handguns, knives, broken bottles, and then like the fake weapons.
Speaker 2: On four occasions he attacked more than one victim. In
Speaker 2: the same incident, he began targeting women along Fairfax County's
Speaker 2: Route one corridor, a busy area of strip malls and
Speaker 2: apartment at buildings, and then continued to Leesburg and then
Speaker 2: again in Fairfax and Prince George Counties. In two thousand
Speaker 2: and six, after four years of no known attacks, a
Speaker 2: young girl in Cranston, Rhode Island, saw a stranger poking
Speaker 2: his head through a sliding glass door that led to
Speaker 2: like the back deck, and then he ran away, but
Speaker 2: the DNA left behind matched this rapist. Oh shit, so
Speaker 2: it was about to happen. But I don't really know
Speaker 2: what made him run away, but he ran away, but
Speaker 2: the evidence was there. The following January, Thomas raped a
Speaker 2: New Haven woman as her infant son slept in a
Speaker 2: crib in the same room. And then this one's really
Speaker 2: really fucked up. He in two thousand and nine, on Halloween,
Speaker 2: attacked three teenage tricker treaders in Prince William County, Virginia,
Speaker 2: which was the last in a string of at least
Speaker 2: thirteen attacks linked to him throughout like all of these states.
Speaker 2: The attack on Halloween, he took his girlfriend's car and
Speaker 2: she assumed he was just running errands, and then the
Speaker 2: rapist forced three teenage trick or treats into the woods
Speaker 2: at gunpoint and sex and it was a fake gun
Speaker 2: and sexually assaulted two of them, but the third one
Speaker 2: was able to frantically text and call for help. And
Speaker 2: one victim told the post that she was praying and
Speaker 2: she was like, I thought I was gonna die. I
Speaker 2: mean they straight up like you could tell, like they
Speaker 2: had to drop their trick or treating bags of candy,
Speaker 2: Like this is how young they were. They were just
Speaker 2: like out getting candy and had to like leave their
Speaker 2: candy behind to be ushered into the woods and this
Speaker 2: like fucked up thing. And after the girl called for
Speaker 2: help and texted, Thomas heard a lot of footsteps and
Speaker 2: realized like, oh, people are coming, so but he was
Speaker 2: able to get away. He straight up like cops were
Speaker 2: all over swarming and he just calmly like walked away
Speaker 2: and got into his car and drove away from the scene. Jesus, yeah,
Speaker 2: he just like chill, and he went back to his
Speaker 2: girlfriend's apartment and went to sleep. Was not affected. He
Speaker 2: would attack women and then he would watch the news
Speaker 2: for coverage of his rapes. So in the late nineteen
Speaker 2: nineties he were members reading about a man on a
Speaker 2: bicycle attacking women, and he would be like, wow, I'm
Speaker 2: the man on the bike Psycho.
Speaker 1: He told them, it's truly wild because it's like you
Speaker 1: don't remember the attacks, you don't remember the specifics, but
Speaker 1: then you like want to look up so that you
Speaker 1: can have this weird sense of like fame in your
Speaker 1: own head. That's so strange.
Speaker 2: No, he is strange. He's not like anyone we've really had,
Speaker 2: or he's like an amalgamation, like he's like a lot
Speaker 2: of different pieces, but nothing really clicks, because we've had
Speaker 2: other people who refuse, who like refuse to acknowledge how
Speaker 2: horrific what they did was. Yeah, but he admitted to
Speaker 2: doing it, like I don't. And then it's like he
Speaker 2: couldn't stop, but he didn't care, and then he would
Speaker 2: go to sleep but like to watch it like it
Speaker 2: is kind of pretty strange. He told The Washington Post
Speaker 2: that his attacks emerged from his time as a desperate
Speaker 2: homeless person, and that's what gave him all of these
Speaker 2: urges because he felt lonely and lost. And I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 2: when I'm lonely and lost, they eat fast food, Like
Speaker 2: I don't know if like you have to go raping
Speaker 2: and living in burnt out pets.
Speaker 4: Yes.
Speaker 2: He actually spoke to the Washington Post a lot and
Speaker 2: was very open. He admitted to faking a split personality
Speaker 2: for a while. At first he blamed it on this
Speaker 2: guy named Irwin who lived inside of him, and then
Speaker 2: he said, I was just making that up. Oh wow,
Speaker 2: He said he knew what he was doing all along,
Speaker 2: and he knew it was wrong. March fourth, twenty eleven,
Speaker 2: he was arrested in New Haven, Connecticut, and he immediately
Speaker 2: told police that he had the right man, but wanted
Speaker 2: to dispute what he read about the case in the
Speaker 2: newspapers in the internet. So there were just details he
Speaker 2: wasn't really happy with, but he admitted to doing all
Speaker 2: these killings. They were able to arrest him because they
Speaker 2: matched his DNA to a discarded cigarette butt. A tip
Speaker 2: came in from someone who knew the suspect, and the
Speaker 2: authorities secretly picked up one of his discarded butts he
Speaker 2: so then they found out that he was a thirty
Speaker 2: nine year old trucker. When they took him into custody
Speaker 2: in New Haven, the detectives predicted this case would be
Speaker 2: solved through a tip because they had, like they already
Speaker 2: cleared hundreds of suspects by this point, like hundreds of
Speaker 2: people were cleared. They were really investigating, and they just
Speaker 2: like needed a tip. And forensic files is like this too,
Speaker 2: Like it's usually not even detective work.
Speaker 1: It's like a tip.
Speaker 2: It's one tip. You heard about the one where like
Speaker 2: a couple was fighting, so the woman called and was like, actually,
Speaker 2: I know my ex killed someone. I got into a fight,
Speaker 2: and she was like, I'm going to fucking turn you in,
Speaker 2: and then she turned him in. Fuck.
Speaker 1: No, Yeah, it was It's.
Speaker 2: A fun one. Fairfax Detective John Kelly said he had
Speaker 2: long suspected it was a trucker because a lot of
Speaker 2: the attacks were near truck stops and it would have
Speaker 2: matched like the route traveling up and down Interstate ninety five.
Speaker 2: March fifth, twenty eleven, Jaylor's reported that he tried to
Speaker 2: hang himself in jail, but it didn't work, and then
Speaker 2: again he said that he just couldn't find work or
Speaker 2: a place to stay, and that's why he started doing
Speaker 2: it around nineteen and twenty. But even though he was
Speaker 2: admitting things, he's still delusional and said to the post.
Speaker 2: I just went to a woman, scared her and she
Speaker 2: gave me sex.
Speaker 1: Like I don't know, but yeah, like he doesn't understand
Speaker 1: like how it works.
Speaker 2: Detrimental it is because he doesn't even remember shit about it.
Speaker 2: He's not even getting pleasure from it in any way.
Speaker 2: It's like not like yeah, so since it doesn't affect him,
Speaker 2: he doesn't realize how it affects these victims or something.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's just like looking at it is like purely transactional,
Speaker 1: like like he robbed someone for like their purse or something.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: Yeah. He admitted that he would walk the streets notice
Speaker 2: good locations that would be good for an attack, scouting
Speaker 2: escape routes, and taking advantage of an opportunity when a
Speaker 2: woman would come along. He said he would jump out
Speaker 2: and take the women from the sidewalk into the woods,
Speaker 2: and that matches like many given accounts given by the victims.
Speaker 2: He would trail these women and learn about their personal
Speaker 2: lives and then attack them at night. And then he
Speaker 2: said he just couldn't stop because I figured it out,
Speaker 2: like wow, it's that easy, and so it like really
Speaker 2: seemed easy to him, So that's why he didn't want
Speaker 2: to stop. Aaron said that it was a relief that
Speaker 2: he was arrested because he really didn't like living the
Speaker 2: life that he was living and it would be an
Speaker 2: end to his sickness. But it's also bullshit because after
Speaker 2: the media was like intense, he would stop for a
Speaker 2: while or he would change his appearance. So he did
Speaker 2: try to evade arrest. So for him to be like, oh,
Speaker 2: thank god, finally am caught is like, well, yeah, he
Speaker 2: tried to not be caught. He would also commit these
Speaker 2: when he was mad about other shit in life, So
Speaker 2: he did have a sunde and he went nuts and
Speaker 2: like went on a rampage after he was charged in
Speaker 2: an incident when he smashed his girlfriend's bathroom window after
Speaker 2: a domestic assault at the house. There was always like
Speaker 2: something that kind of sparked him to go commit these
Speaker 2: crimes in his life that he couldn't handle. Not to
Speaker 2: minimize all this, but it's like such a trend on
Speaker 2: the internet to be like just go to therapy, Like
Speaker 2: why aren't men just going to therapy? Like why are
Speaker 2: you doing this? Authorities chose Prince William County to prosecut
Speaker 2: Thomas first because it was the jurisdiction where the most
Speaker 2: recent attack occurred, and it was the most brazen. The
Speaker 2: three teenage trigger treats from Halloween two thousand and nine
Speaker 2: really kind of shocked everyone, so that's where they decided
Speaker 2: to do it. He pled guilty to abducting and raping
Speaker 2: a woman who was in the process of moving out
Speaker 2: of Releasburg apartment. He was sentenced to two life terms
Speaker 2: in prison on top of the more than three life
Speaker 2: sentences for the Halloween two thousand and nine attacks. So
Speaker 2: they gave him like so many life sentences they couldn't
Speaker 2: stop and they wanted to do it in Virginia because
Speaker 2: there's no parole in Virginia at all. But also if
Speaker 2: you have five life sentences sentences, then yeah, they're going
Speaker 2: to be up for parole anywhere. So like March first,
Speaker 2: twenty thirteen, he was sentenced to three life terms in
Speaker 2: prison plus an additional eighty years for the Halloween attacks,
Speaker 2: which he pled guilty to in November twenty twelve. So
Speaker 2: he ended up being indicted on six counts of first
Speaker 2: degree rape and multiple related charges from other places, which
Speaker 2: total fifty four charges. At least.
Speaker 1: He pleaded guilty to everything and didn't make like these
Speaker 1: poor victims like go through trials, you know, tiny silver
Speaker 1: lining time it is.
Speaker 2: But a lot of the victims did speak at the sentencing. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: and that's when he said he like realized for the
Speaker 2: first time that maybe there were effects to his crimes,
Speaker 2: but not until the sentencing thing. So then in June
Speaker 2: twenty fifteen, he pled guilty to three more rapes that
Speaker 2: happened between nineteen eighty seven and two thousand and one
Speaker 2: and got more life terms. And like I said, it's
Speaker 2: like really complicated, there's just so much. And then Wikipedia
Speaker 2: there is a chart of seventeen victims and their like stats, location, weapon,
Speaker 2: and like what happened in the attack. So if you
Speaker 2: wanted to just see like a very simple graph of
Speaker 2: the victims and details, I would suggest going to that Wikipedia.
Speaker 2: And a lot of the victims I noticed were black,
Speaker 2: and I wonder if that, like only two weren't, And
Speaker 2: I do wonder if that's why it took so long
Speaker 2: to catch the guy.
Speaker 1: And he is black as well, right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: I just wonder if they were white, if it would
Speaker 2: be quicker.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because he was really at large for like fifteen
Speaker 1: years with a lot of DNA out there before they
Speaker 1: got him or like fourteen years.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I mean, I guess you can't do paternal
Speaker 2: like I'm sure his dad's DNA was in the system.
Speaker 2: I don't know, and he was at that psychiatric facility
Speaker 2: as a kid, Like, you don't fingerprint and DNA people
Speaker 2: when they burn a girl's hair on fire.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: So that's where Munch would come in saying, yeah, you
Speaker 1: can't take everybody's fingerprints and big brother them and all
Speaker 1: that blah blah blah.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And then Thomas told Circuit Court Judge Thomas D.
Speaker 2: Horn that he needs help and treatment to figure out
Speaker 2: why and how I ended up like this. I have
Speaker 2: to be punished, and I know I need to be punished.
Speaker 2: So that's that. Horn. The jud was very poetic and
Speaker 2: he said that in quotes, what you did to her
Speaker 2: is the same as if you had taken a knife
Speaker 2: and drive it right through her heart. Instead you drove
Speaker 2: it right through her soul. So wow, a poetic judge.
Speaker 2: And then another added weird thing is that when the
Speaker 2: detectives left the room after interrogating him, he said out
Speaker 2: loud to himself, oh shit, you ain't never coming out,
Speaker 2: so he knew that. Yeah, And we also have to
Speaker 2: remember that his memory is so unclear and he's so
Speaker 2: careless and wild out there, like with all these committed
Speaker 2: crimes that surely there's probably others that aren't reported, and
Speaker 2: like so many pieces and parts of this puzzle that
Speaker 2: will remain unknown, according to Major Mike Strahan, head of
Speaker 2: Prince George's Police Criminal Investigation Division. So he's like, yeah,
Speaker 2: there's just so many probably victims, pieces evidence all over that.
Speaker 2: But he's in jail. He's never getting out.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I don't see somebody with like from what
Speaker 1: you've told me, I don't see somebody like this ever
Speaker 1: being rehabilitated or ever.
Speaker 2: You know. No, And he's like a liar, Like we
Speaker 2: have all these different types of people, but he is careless, wild.
Speaker 2: There's no rhyme or reason he's not I don't know
Speaker 2: if I would say not smart, but like leaving evidence places.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but and wild that he just didn't get caught
Speaker 1: for so long, like really because he was doing things
Speaker 1: it seems like willy nilly, just like in a bad mood,
Speaker 1: going out and committing crimes, you know, and then walking
Speaker 1: right into the car and driving away calmly from a
Speaker 1: forest preserve after being the one that did it, And
Speaker 1: it's like, what is it because these women were black?
Speaker 1: Like yeah, or was it really a super hard case
Speaker 1: and they couldn't figure it out?
Speaker 2: But it's like you knew he was a trucker. You
Speaker 2: went through hundreds of people and couldn't find him. I
Speaker 2: don't know, Yeah, maybe he was good at it, maybe
Speaker 2: the careless like it's kind of it's like, it's not
Speaker 2: like this, but sometimes when you don't know fantasy football
Speaker 2: and you play, you just end up doing really well.
Speaker 1: Like I don't know, yeah, oh, I mean I like
Speaker 1: we'll do I'll like do pools like that based on
Speaker 1: the colors of uniforms and like I'll end up winning
Speaker 1: at the office pool and everyone's like fuck you, you know,
Speaker 1: because I'm just like, I don't know, I like the
Speaker 1: light blue.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but if you want more, he talked to the
Speaker 2: Washington Posts a lot, and I'm actually shocked we don't
Speaker 2: know more about him because so many victims. Yeah, but
Speaker 2: and he had a name, you know, like usually when
Speaker 2: someone has a nickname for killing, we get more attention.
Speaker 2: But I don't know, but I do think that as
Speaker 2: you did a good job taking two of these equally
Speaker 2: in a good way. I don't know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, they took a lot from both to both cases.
Speaker 1: Thanks for looking into both of those cases. And we
Speaker 1: have a great guest. Everybody, don't go anywhere, all right, everybody.
Speaker 1: Today's guest is an actor who can be seen all
Speaker 1: across the Law and Order Extended universe. She's played a
Speaker 1: judge on Original Recipe, a dead body on Criminal Intent,
Speaker 1: the deceptive Christine Chang on SVU. And that's only a
Speaker 1: few of them, but you know her from today's episode
Speaker 1: and several others as DNA tech Susan Chang. Please enjoy
Speaker 1: our chat with Karen Senlee.
Speaker 2: We're so happy you're here.
Speaker 1: Hi, Kan, so happy I have you do? You do
Speaker 1: a lot of podcasts?
Speaker 4: No, this will be the first ever.
Speaker 2: Wow, you're on our second podcast. You're our second podcast, virgin.
Speaker 2: I hope that you enjoy this experience. It should be
Speaker 2: pretty painless. So did you know, like so you would
Speaker 2: you were like a Law and Order staple.
Speaker 1: You've been in all Like you've been in four of
Speaker 1: the franchises. You've been like you were a couple parts
Speaker 1: on SVU and then you came back to start the
Speaker 1: role as Susan Chung with this episode Double Strands, and
Speaker 1: you know, like going into this one where you were
Speaker 1: playing Susan Chung the DNA expert, that you were going
Speaker 1: to be recurring or did they just keep bringing you back.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 4: You never know what they're gonna do. So it's always
Speaker 4: a nice surprise when they say are you available on
Speaker 4: such and such a date range, you know, and you
Speaker 4: go yes, absolutely, and then you try to clear everything
Speaker 4: out of the way and you hope that actually happens. Sure.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I really love that character. She's kind of funny
Speaker 2: and dry, and she brings like some lightness to the crimes.
Speaker 2: You know, it's science. It's sadness that she does make
Speaker 2: us laugh.
Speaker 6: Okay, Yeah, I do love when she's just like, really,
Speaker 6: this is a conspiracy, okay, like it really puts uh,
Speaker 6: really puts old Danny Pino in his place.
Speaker 4: No, sweet, sweet guy, sweet guy?
Speaker 2: Is he sweet?
Speaker 4: Yeah? Yeah? There? You know, all these folks are nice,
Speaker 4: you know, they really are, and it's it's just sort
Speaker 4: of like they're there to do a job that also
Speaker 4: just relax. You know. Kelly Kiddish even has her dog there. Yeah,
Speaker 4: you know, and you know, she's got a guitar when
Speaker 4: she's not doing anything and she just hangs out. So
Speaker 4: you know, they make it their home, you know, in
Speaker 4: the in the holding areas. So because she put in
Speaker 4: long hours and you don't know if you're going to
Speaker 4: see your pooch in a while.
Speaker 2: Yeah, who did you get most excited to see on set?
Speaker 4: Well, Marishka is both exciting and intimidating at the same time.
Speaker 2: I can imagine Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, because she just
Speaker 2: is such a pro y.
Speaker 4: You know, it's in her bones, in her blood, and
Speaker 4: just her presence. Everybody's got to bring up their a game,
Speaker 4: you know. And she's also really generous too. She's very
Speaker 4: open and really like she's going to give you everything
Speaker 4: she's got and wants the same from you. So it
Speaker 4: really does bring out the best in everybody who's working
Speaker 4: around her. Honestly. Yeah, it really sets the tone of
Speaker 4: the of the show.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, we wanted to talk I mean, we
Speaker 1: obviously want to talk about this episode double strands, but
Speaker 1: we really want to talk about like your whole all
Speaker 1: your roles on the show, and we were we couldn't
Speaker 1: believe we've already covered this episode Counselor's Chinatown. But you
Speaker 1: played this iconic villain, Christine Cheng in Counselor's Chinatown, and
Speaker 1: you've got to have like a you got to have
Speaker 1: like sort of a big monologue and like a big
Speaker 1: moment going against Marishka, like an interrogation. So how we
Speaker 1: just wanted to ask about that, like what was that out?
Speaker 2: Like it was?
Speaker 4: It was really interesting because I'll let you know, Warren
Speaker 4: Light all right, he wrote a play called No Foreigners
Speaker 4: Beyond This Point, and it kind of touched on some
Speaker 4: of the issues that actually is in the play. In
Speaker 4: her monologue about being in China. He went back to
Speaker 4: China to teach English before it really was open, and
Speaker 4: so some of the experience of being in a communist world.
Speaker 4: He brought into that script a little bit sort of
Speaker 4: like an acknowledgement of the kind of persecution people were
Speaker 4: going through. So if there's a little hint of that
Speaker 4: in there, you know, when she talks about how she
Speaker 4: had to come what what you know, kind of obstacles
Speaker 4: she had to overcome to get here and why she left.
Speaker 4: You know, so because it's of course a repressive country
Speaker 4: and there's a lot of persecution of teachers in those days,
Speaker 4: so there's just that little hint. But then of course
Speaker 4: she doesn't do exactly the right thing, so it really
Speaker 4: it was bag you know, that's a tribute to that experience.
Speaker 4: I think think in that character that you know, people
Speaker 4: from China experiencing that kind of world and then coming
Speaker 4: to the States. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: He was there for about a little over a year,
Speaker 4: and it was around the time that the Gang of
Speaker 4: Four was being arrest They had been arrested, so it's
Speaker 4: just after the Cultural Revolution and they were brought up
Speaker 4: on charges. Chenka Amatstong's wife was on trial. Wow, big
Speaker 4: deal in those days, and everything was censored. Of course
Speaker 4: you had one television. You had the trial on TV,
Speaker 4: and everybody was, you know, watching what was going to happen.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and she is such a dynamic character because she
Speaker 1: has that experience in that struggle. But then also it's like,
Speaker 1: but now you're keeping other people down, you know, like
Speaker 1: now you're exploiting people.
Speaker 4: Well it was the accountant, the accountant, right, my fault.
Speaker 2: But also just like it the it's like a twisted
Speaker 2: character too, because she is doing this monologue knowing she's
Speaker 2: going to get off She's like, I'll make you think it.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's really masterful. It's really fun. And you
Speaker 2: got to be arrested, like at a big event, and
Speaker 2: that's kind of a bingo card moment we like to
Speaker 2: call when we're at like a fancy, fancy event and
Speaker 2: the cops come in to get you. That was fun.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah. And oh, by the way, the man who
Speaker 4: plays my husband in that as his name is Henry Yuck.
Speaker 4: He was also in the play oh book that Warren
Speaker 4: Light wrote. Yeah. Oh, so he was sort of like
Speaker 4: bringing back some of the crew that he knows from
Speaker 4: theater because you know, he's very you know, I want
Speaker 4: to say faithful, committed to the theater community here in
Speaker 4: New York. I mean he wrote plays side Man.
Speaker 1: Yeah no, And I remember in Pandemic there was this
Speaker 1: whole interview with him where he said, we're going to
Speaker 1: try to give as many actor theater actors out of
Speaker 1: work theater actors.
Speaker 2: Jobs on SVU as we can. So I know that's
Speaker 2: like a big Really.
Speaker 4: We're in the theater community are very grateful for him.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no. I mean Lisa and I love to talk
Speaker 1: about how when we go to theater in New York.
Speaker 1: We love looking at everybody's bios, like seeing who's been
Speaker 1: on SVU, like, you know, so a big link between
Speaker 1: those two worlds.
Speaker 2: Did you start in the theater? Do you do theater?
Speaker 4: I did? I did. I started a small theater group.
Speaker 4: I actually took an acting class. I moved from modern
Speaker 4: dance to theater because I wanted to speak, yeah, and
Speaker 4: try on different shoes because I actually was really shy
Speaker 4: when I was young, very very shy, and so it
Speaker 4: kind of had a way of helping me kind of
Speaker 4: come out of myself, you know, and just sort of
Speaker 4: explore the world. So add a little you know, theater
Speaker 4: group where we built the sets, painted stage, managed lighting
Speaker 4: the whole nine yards.
Speaker 5: That was my.
Speaker 4: Apprenticeship before I ended up going into more film, television
Speaker 4: and that sort of thing. Yeah, but I still go
Speaker 4: back to theater whenever, you know, it comes up and
Speaker 4: there's there might be a play. I'll be coming up
Speaker 4: in the in January.
Speaker 1: So okay, awesome, Oh but you can't you can't say yet.
Speaker 4: Well, you know, I haven't been officially offered.
Speaker 1: The job, Okay, so I'll just like I'll just say out.
Speaker 4: You know, there are several theater companies in New York
Speaker 4: that have really nurtured Asian American actors. Pan Asian Repertory
Speaker 4: Theater is one. They're the probably the oldest My Theater
Speaker 4: Company and NATCO National Asian American Theater Company. So if
Speaker 4: you are looking for some Asian talent, those are the
Speaker 4: places to go. They are doing wonderful classical works and
Speaker 4: new works, and that is where the incubator is. And
Speaker 4: they also MAYE also has a writers group, so many
Speaker 4: of those writers are now having their works produced not
Speaker 4: only in New York but regionally, which is telling me
Speaker 4: America is accepting and open to Asian American stories all
Speaker 4: over and not just New York Lower East Side.
Speaker 1: That's awesome. Yeah, thank you for shouting out those groups.
Speaker 1: I'm sure because our listeners will. We have a lot
Speaker 1: of leaders see that out. Yeah, totally.
Speaker 4: Well, you know, I'll plug once upon a Korea time
Speaker 4: right now. Okay, that's playing at La Mama.
Speaker 1: Oh amazing.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and that's MAYI. So check them out because you're
Speaker 4: going to find some really fine actors out there, a
Speaker 4: lot of good talent. Yeah, And I'm self thrilled because
Speaker 4: this is you know, you're talking about a couple of generations,
Speaker 4: a generation of actors where you know, in the i'd
Speaker 4: say sixties and seventies, Asian actors couldn't get an agent
Speaker 4: because there wasn't enough work. They're just like they didn't
Speaker 4: want to represent you because they couldn't get you work.
Speaker 4: But that has changed over the last i'd say ten
Speaker 4: fifteen fifteen years. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we talked to B. D. Wong and he was saying, how,
Speaker 2: you know, being in productions that are all Asian or so,
Speaker 2: it's so incredible, but then it also makes them angry
Speaker 2: because it's like, why can't this be happening all the time?
Speaker 2: And so he talked about how it's this double edge
Speaker 2: like good and frustrating thing.
Speaker 4: We talked about it with him. But you know, it's
Speaker 4: changing slowly but surely, and I think it's, you know,
Speaker 4: a nice kind of evolution.
Speaker 2: Well, I want to know, you've been a Judge and
Speaker 2: Emmy all these different kind of iconic parts. What would
Speaker 2: you like to come back to SVU or Law and
Speaker 2: Order as if you got to come back again?
Speaker 4: Oh boy, you know part.
Speaker 5: Of that, Well, it's always fun to play the sort
Speaker 5: of the bad bad guy, you know, And uh, but
Speaker 5: I don't mind having a steady job, even if it
Speaker 5: is just the you know, but they're all all challenging,
Speaker 5: and you know, I also was a dead body.
Speaker 2: No, my gosh, no, what episode?
Speaker 4: That was my very first Law and Order.
Speaker 1: Original criminal criminal.
Speaker 4: Yeah. It was called shin Wazari and I am the
Speaker 4: person who is murdered and they have to solve my murder.
Speaker 2: Where where were you shot this?
Speaker 4: We shot this in Chinatown on a very hot day. Uh,
Speaker 4: lots of people around. And I'm walking along the street
Speaker 4: with my child and we're shopping and I suddenly see
Speaker 4: a man who I recognize as being sort of a murderer.
Speaker 4: I want to say, yeah, a murderer during Tiana men
Speaker 4: that period of time. And so I start to run
Speaker 4: towards him, and I didn't trying to get somebody's attention
Speaker 4: to stop him because he was sort of, you know,
Speaker 4: a bad guy, and and I lose him in the crowd,
Speaker 4: so I give up. I start walking back and I
Speaker 4: get my child and I try to call my husband,
Speaker 4: and two seconds later, I get shot in the back.
Speaker 1: Oh no, oh my god.
Speaker 4: So I'm lying on the ground and Vincent Dianafrio is like, Okay,
Speaker 4: what's happening here, you know, but they they try and
Speaker 4: solve my murder out of that. That first That was
Speaker 4: my very first episode, that.
Speaker 2: Episode wildly okay. I'm usually I see you all day,
Speaker 2: but I've seen that one.
Speaker 1: So you okay. So but there's a whole scene where
Speaker 1: they're looking over your dead body, like you're lying there dead,
Speaker 1: because we haven't talked to anybody who's played a dead
Speaker 1: body quite yet, and I would. I just very I've
Speaker 1: always thought I was a kid been interested in like
Speaker 1: the breathing, Like do you when they yell action, do
Speaker 1: you just like hold your breath for as long as
Speaker 1: you can or breathe shallow or what you?
Speaker 2: Okay?
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I was face down, that's number one, okay.
Speaker 4: And they put a cloth to protect me because it's
Speaker 4: kind of dirty on city streets and when and also,
Speaker 4: you know, the interesting thing is I had never been
Speaker 4: shot before, so they had a squib on my person
Speaker 4: so that the explosion would burst out. Oh okay, So
Speaker 4: it's all timing and everything. So they shoot me, and
Speaker 4: of course I fall face down and that's where my
Speaker 4: body is. They're discovering me. So when they do do
Speaker 4: a little bit of a pan it's it's really brief. Yeah,
Speaker 4: you're basically trying to hold as still as possible, but
Speaker 4: because I am face down, it's a little easier to breathe. Yeah,
Speaker 4: you know sort of yeah, yeah, yeah, but it was
Speaker 4: really interesting. I've never had that attached to me in
Speaker 4: my back and.
Speaker 1: So explain what that is because I think I know,
Speaker 1: but I just we explain like what that is, Like
Speaker 1: it's a little like vest or something that you wear
Speaker 1: under your clothes.
Speaker 4: I think it was like some kind of patch okay
Speaker 4: that bursts on a signal so that while you're not
Speaker 4: actually being shot with a propellant, sure there's an explosion
Speaker 4: that will give you the impression that you've a person
Speaker 4: has been shot.
Speaker 2: And the squib is like on a remote or something
Speaker 2: so that they press it and it goes, Oh, how
Speaker 2: many takes did you get?
Speaker 4: I think we did just one one and done well,
Speaker 4: so we hear that was it? You know. Yeah, these
Speaker 4: guys are so such a pro that everything's really quick.
Speaker 4: You're lucky if you get three shots through, you know,
Speaker 4: three takes in a scene. Yeah, it's it's really quick,
Speaker 4: and that everybody's got to be on their game and
Speaker 4: really paying attention to what's going on. So, you know,
Speaker 4: I I often tell younger actors like, just be aware,
Speaker 4: be very on your mark, and pay attention watch what's
Speaker 4: being happen. You know. I sort of like try to
Speaker 4: mentor people and go, this is what it's going to be,
Speaker 4: you know, that's the way TV is. Stage is going
Speaker 4: to be really different because you get to play around
Speaker 4: and move around. But camera work is very specific and
Speaker 4: you really have to kind of learn how to play
Speaker 4: to a camera what's going on around you. And it's
Speaker 4: more challenging when you're outdoors than in a set, and
Speaker 4: even within a set there are always you know, other
Speaker 4: challenges as well. So there's limitations of space, space kinds
Speaker 4: of things. But you have a lot of distractions on
Speaker 4: in the in the city noise for one, a lot
Speaker 4: of moving parts, people going by. When I tell you,
Speaker 4: China Town is a very tough place to shoot because
Speaker 4: older Chinese people will not take anybody telling him you
Speaker 4: can't go here because we're shooting. They just will not
Speaker 4: listen to you. They'll just walk on through and your
Speaker 4: SHOT's going to be like okay, hold yeah. So I
Speaker 4: feel sorry for the pas that have to kind of
Speaker 4: control the crowds.
Speaker 2: Have you ever had a standout moment with the public
Speaker 2: interfering or doing anything wild?
Speaker 4: No? No, But but I will say one very funny story.
Speaker 4: This is like way back in the days when I
Speaker 4: was starting out and I was doing background work. I
Speaker 4: did two long fu oh okay, and the scene was
Speaker 4: We're at a nightclub and the guys are all gathering.
Speaker 4: This is including Robin Williams. Okay. But and I forget
Speaker 4: the name of the guy now who's deceased anyway, Patrick Swayzey,
Speaker 4: Patrick Swayzey. So we're on a little break and we're
Speaker 4: exiting the building and I'm walking down this set of
Speaker 4: stairs and the crowd outside has gathered and they're just worring, roaring,
Speaker 4: and I'm like, oh, and I didn't realize he was
Speaker 4: behind me and they were roaring for him, and I'm like,
Speaker 4: what's going on? So, if you want to say, the
Speaker 4: reaction was really I kind of got some of his.
Speaker 1: You got to feel that swayze blow for a minute. Well,
Speaker 1: so you you described like how the SVU set you know,
Speaker 1: she sets the tone, and a lot of people have
Speaker 1: told us that, Like, but since you've been on like
Speaker 1: now OC and criminal intent and original do you see
Speaker 1: like a difference between the sets when you go to
Speaker 1: do and I know it's been like different time periods
Speaker 1: and things change, but like, do you see a difference
Speaker 1: when you like bop from show to show you know what?
Speaker 4: Not really because the family is very you know, they
Speaker 4: trade a lot of people, so they know each other
Speaker 4: really well, you know, and it's all familial. They know
Speaker 4: they're where, what they have to do, what not to do,
Speaker 4: and it's it's quite an operation. I I it's incredible,
Speaker 4: you know. I don't know if anybody's ever seen the
Speaker 4: call sheet.
Speaker 2: Let us see the cat.
Speaker 4: This is a call sheet from that day. I'm such
Speaker 4: a memento person. So this is the call sheet. Wow, okay,
Speaker 4: And this is how many people are involved.
Speaker 1: I know, it's like wild and our listeners can't see
Speaker 1: this obviously, but it is like there's people, I mean people, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, And.
Speaker 4: And it keeps the city alive. This is like one
Speaker 4: of the major you know, income streams for the city.
Speaker 4: And when when COVID hit, it was like, oh my god,
Speaker 4: we're talking about an entire industry that's going to be
Speaker 4: like so mess up, you know. So yeah, this is
Speaker 4: one day, one day.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Are there other things you have stolen from the set
Speaker 2: from a mento?
Speaker 1: Huge theft?
Speaker 2: No, no, no, I'm a mental person too, so I'm wondering.
Speaker 2: I always like to grab a sign or something.
Speaker 4: No, but I did get the suit from Chinatown. It's
Speaker 4: Chinatown counselor. I was doing that suit that I wore. Yeah,
Speaker 4: and it's a really beautiful suit, the sort of plumish
Speaker 4: kind of Yeah. Yeah, it's really lovely.
Speaker 2: Have you worn it?
Speaker 4: Oh? Yes, Oh, I've wanted for other auditions when they're
Speaker 4: looking for someone high powered. Yeah, it totally fits the bill. Yeah.
Speaker 2: We have a classic question we actually have been asked
Speaker 2: for a while. What are your go to craft serve snacks? Oh?
Speaker 4: Yeah, oh gosh, it's always gonna be Cheetos.
Speaker 2: Yes, even with the dust. Yeah, it's bold. I like
Speaker 2: that Cheetos.
Speaker 4: And when they had Crafty in the morning, my go
Speaker 4: to breakfast would be a grilled cheese with tomato and bacon.
Speaker 1: Oh yum.
Speaker 4: That was like that'll hold me for quite a while.
Speaker 4: But now now we don't know that kind of it's
Speaker 4: all boxed whatever number one, two, three or four. You know,
Speaker 4: it's sort of sort of sad that way. It's like,
Speaker 4: oh gosh, I kind of missed those days.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I wonder if it's going to go back now
Speaker 2: that things are getting a little bit more.
Speaker 1: Calm COVID wise, Who knows.
Speaker 4: I'm sure, yeah, you know, money, Yeah, I think if
Speaker 4: that's gonna happen, it's not gonna be for a while, honestly,
Speaker 4: you know. And there they've sort of gotten used to
Speaker 4: now the setup of how to make things a little
Speaker 4: bit more efficient in terms of all that. So it'll
Speaker 4: be a while if that does ever come.
Speaker 2: Back, you know.
Speaker 4: Yeah, we all just adapting.
Speaker 2: That's it.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So aside from the play, that is maybe any other
Speaker 1: any other projects coming up that you are working on or.
Speaker 4: Well, there's a group called Hedge Pig Ensemble and they're
Speaker 4: in Brooklyn and they are trying to bring attention to
Speaker 4: people to plays that are rarely done, and they have
Speaker 4: been doing readings of plays that are in the cannon.
Speaker 4: And so I just shot a short scene from a
Speaker 4: play called and the Soul Shower Dance, and it takes
Speaker 4: place in the nineteen thirties and it's an immigrant family,
Speaker 4: Japanese immigrant family Japan working in the farm in California.
Speaker 4: So it has just a little bit a slice of
Speaker 4: history in it, and it was a play that Pan
Speaker 4: Asian rep had actually done years ago. But it's one
Speaker 4: of those plays that gives an insight into what it
Speaker 4: was like for immigrants of that time. So that's one
Speaker 4: little thing that that I just shot.
Speaker 2: Amazing.
Speaker 4: There's a Law and Order Organized crime where Susan Chung
Speaker 4: is Actually it makes another appearance. I know that'll be
Speaker 4: coming up sometime in September. It's part of the there.
Speaker 2: The premiere is it the three crossover event?
Speaker 4: There's a crew that's.
Speaker 1: The premiere.
Speaker 2: Okay, how everybody keep their eyes peeled for you on
Speaker 2: the premiere episode?
Speaker 4: And you know, the heartbreaking thing is we were shooting
Speaker 4: the first day back from their break, Okay, that's when
Speaker 4: we shot it. And the next day was that the
Speaker 4: day that guy got shot?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah.
Speaker 4: I was like, oh my god. You know, I couldn't
Speaker 4: imagine that happening on the day that we were starting,
Speaker 4: you know, and it actually was the day after. So
Speaker 4: it's a little a little scary of what we're going
Speaker 4: through in terms of guns in the city. Yes, no, yeah,
Speaker 4: but anyway, so that's going to be the Crossover.
Speaker 2: That's all right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're gonna keep it Eye the Crossover. Susan Chung
Speaker 1: is back, okay, but you're in the OC part of
Speaker 1: the crossover or the s V part of it, the
Speaker 1: OC the OC okay.
Speaker 4: Yeah. So now I've I guess I've done all of
Speaker 4: them in some to some degree.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know what, the Law and Order original
Speaker 1: was back. I'm sure they're gonna be knocking on your
Speaker 1: door for that again. Like you're just you're just like
Speaker 1: up on the wall of the casting people's office. I think, Well, Lisa,
Speaker 1: do you have any more questions? I feel like this
Speaker 1: was awesome. I mean, thank you so much, Thank you
Speaker 1: so much for taking the time to talk to us.
Speaker 4: Oh, it was great. It was a lot of fun.
Speaker 4: Thank you so much for asking.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I hope your first podcast was okay, beautie, Yeah,
Speaker 2: she was so sweet. Given work plugging all yeah, all
Speaker 2: that Asian American stuff. Guys, goes check that out if
Speaker 2: you're in New York. She has got the hook up.
Speaker 1: What do we think double Strands a classic? I don't
Speaker 1: really know that. There's a whole lot of post mortem
Speaker 1: we can do, Like, hey, if you're a twin twins
Speaker 1: should be illegal. Yeah, if you're an identical twin, just
Speaker 1: like keep an eye on what your fucking twin is doing.
Speaker 1: But I guess it's like if you don't know you
Speaker 1: have an identical twin, I don't know what you're supposed
Speaker 1: to do to stop them from framing you for murder.
Speaker 2: Also, I think we have learned something. Stop doing experiments
Speaker 2: on twin baby, Yeah, triplet's let them live, Okay, Yes.
Speaker 1: That shit's fucking like that I did so weird.
Speaker 2: Well, there's just ethics and experiments, and you need consent,
Speaker 2: Like there are standards and practices. You can't just like
Speaker 2: take a baby. And I guess the parents can have
Speaker 2: the legal right, but they shouldn't. They shouldn't be able
Speaker 2: to like put their childs to be experimented on. We
Speaker 2: did when I was a sociology major. We went to
Speaker 2: the schools and did experiments on the children without their
Speaker 2: knowledge through like activities, like we set up games and activities,
Speaker 2: but then we studied the way they behaved and then
Speaker 2: did a thing about it. But we pretended it was
Speaker 2: just fun in games, that we were just chilling.
Speaker 1: Well, the mom in this episode, I think ethics aren't
Speaker 1: really a huge part of her life, and I think
Speaker 1: she just wanted the sweet sweet cash from giving her
Speaker 1: kids away, so she made it happen. But yeah, like
Speaker 1: I don't know, in that movie Three Identical Strangers, they
Speaker 1: really kind of made it seem like, I don't know,
Speaker 1: there was like some anti Semitism. There was a little
Speaker 1: bit of anti Semitic stuff. Again it's the doctor who
Speaker 1: like separated those triplets though I felt like in that
Speaker 1: doc but there was like a weird vibe.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but everyone hates Jews, so it's like you could
Speaker 2: say that about everything truly. So, but I have met
Speaker 2: certain women throughout my life. Throughout my life that like
Speaker 2: want to marry a Jew. Like I remember someone had
Speaker 2: a mazoza necklace and I was like, oh my god,
Speaker 2: I didn't realize you're Jewish. It's like I'm not, but
Speaker 2: I'm trying to marry a Jewish man. And so like
Speaker 2: there are there is a subsect of I think people
Speaker 2: that want to I didn't know that.
Speaker 1: That was like that was like a fetish for something.
Speaker 1: So Jewish women, well.
Speaker 2: I don't even know if it's like just straight up fetish,
Speaker 2: but it's like I think they hear good things about
Speaker 2: Jewish men, like they're nice to their mothers. They can
Speaker 2: you know, like, yeah, they're calm. Yeah, they're not going
Speaker 2: to fight like that unless they're Hasidic. Then it's like truly,
Speaker 2: you know, put a woman in a wig and shut up.
Speaker 2: So it depends how jew you want to go.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that off with the Hasidic.
Speaker 2: I haven't read the article. I should read it. The
Speaker 2: Times did a huge piece about the Hasidic schools and
Speaker 2: how they're like failing the children but also using public
Speaker 2: grant money. Yeah, and then not teaching their children's skills.
Speaker 1: They would just like kids that don't know how to read. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's like not good, not good.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't read did you read it?
Speaker 1: I didn't read it, but I've been here. I've been
Speaker 1: hearing people talk about it and like, you know, I've
Speaker 1: been seeing comments on it and everything.
Speaker 2: I just wonder what the solution is. I mean, they
Speaker 2: shouldn't be able to take public money. I mean nothing
Speaker 2: religious should exactly exactly.
Speaker 1: That's what I was just going to say. I was like,
Speaker 1: I have a solution.
Speaker 2: If you don't want your kids to read, that's fine,
Speaker 2: but my money should not be going to you. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but your kids should be taken away from you. That's abuse?
Speaker 2: Is that not abuse? Like not giving your kids like
Speaker 2: a full chance at education? Is that not?
Speaker 4: Like?
Speaker 2: How? Yeah?
Speaker 1: But I don't know, like like sometimes like some of
Speaker 1: the sects of that are so closed off that it's
Speaker 1: like they can claim their homeschooling like you know, I
Speaker 1: don't know what they're.
Speaker 2: That should be illegal too.
Speaker 1: But what we can do is just say no more,
Speaker 1: you don't get any more funds from the state, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just I mean, it's honestly, I just want
Speaker 2: to be so dumb. I just want to be so dumb,
Speaker 2: like the weight of the world. Just sometimes it's like
Speaker 2: it's just fucked.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: It's like people are mad at the student loans or
Speaker 2: like anything or like children getting free lunch. But then
Speaker 2: we're like the Catholic Church got pp pp whatever loans.
Speaker 2: I have to pay back my small business loan I
Speaker 2: didn't get. I didn't qualify for the PPE. I had
Speaker 2: a SBA, So I owe all my money back that
Speaker 2: I got from COVID. Oh really, yeah, for my small business.
Speaker 2: But you can do it on a payment plan or something.
Speaker 1: It's not going to like oh yeah.
Speaker 2: The interest. It's not predatory. It's not like student loans,
Speaker 2: Like the interest is not predatory at all, and I
Speaker 2: think I'll be able to pay it off pretty quickly,
Speaker 2: but like it's still it's just not It's just like
Speaker 2: the things that as a call sure that is like
Speaker 2: people have issues with, or what the media is like
Speaker 2: telling you to have issues with, are just so non
Speaker 2: consequential to Like I don't know, the Catholic Church getting millions,
Speaker 2: millions of dollars. It's like, fucked, it's crazy.
Speaker 1: I feel like there should not be any money given
Speaker 1: to any religion and for anything.
Speaker 2: Absolutely not, Like you choose to be religious, you get
Speaker 2: no government money.
Speaker 1: They already get tax breaks, Like that should be enough.
Speaker 2: That should be the gift, you know, you get to
Speaker 2: follow the reptions. Yeah, and they're using the money for
Speaker 2: just court cases. I don't know. It's just like weird
Speaker 2: what we decide to be mad at or not. And
Speaker 2: that's what I mean, Like I want to be happy,
Speaker 2: go lucky, chill, enjoy my life, grateful, and then like
Speaker 2: one thing will be said and then I just spiral
Speaker 2: into like yeah, fuck, what do you do? What do
Speaker 2: you do?
Speaker 1: Like it would be so easy, Yeah, if you were
Speaker 1: just like a super stupid person that just didn't process
Speaker 1: anything going on around you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would love that. I would love to just
Speaker 2: be like being on Summer House Like that seems great.
Speaker 2: I love to just go to things they don't even
Speaker 2: care about recycling on Summerhouse. Who cares they do whatever? Wait,
Speaker 2: why did you bring up recycling?
Speaker 1: Oh, just like you know, the planet ending and like,
Speaker 1: you know, like the shit we've talked about before.
Speaker 2: I'm just joking. Well, it's just funny you said that
Speaker 2: because they do recycle at the end of every party,
Speaker 2: and we watch them recycle.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I never watched the show. I'm sot
Speaker 1: Summer House. I stand corrected. I know you guys are
Speaker 1: recycling icons, and I apologize.
Speaker 2: They're just always picking up the cans after the party.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but do you think they're chatting about Ukraine? Do
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? Like, I don't think they're
Speaker 1: I don't really think they're getting into that kind of
Speaker 1: shit at Summerhouse. I think that that's a sort of
Speaker 1: a fun zone.
Speaker 2: No, but I've probably talked about this before. I mean,
Speaker 2: I think any of our consistent listeners will have to
Speaker 2: just know that we will be repeating things. But you
Speaker 2: watch the MTV show back in the day called Rich Girls, Right, Yeah,
Speaker 2: I think so. I don't have a super clear memory
Speaker 2: on it, but I think I watched it, so it
Speaker 2: meant a lot to me. Casey's nodding, so it was
Speaker 2: Tommy one of Tommy.
Speaker 1: Hill, He'll figure okay, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: And then her friend was less rich, but like her
Speaker 2: dad owned like a luggage company and it was like
Speaker 2: luggage wears, and they were out to lunch or dinner
Speaker 2: and they were getting drunk and stuff. But they were
Speaker 2: just talking about like I mean, people in the Midwest,
Speaker 2: they don't wear cargo pants for like fashion, but they
Speaker 2: need the pockets because they're in the fields working. And
Speaker 2: I loved.
Speaker 1: That they need those loops for their hammers. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: love that.
Speaker 2: That's so funny. But I don't know, but I'm sure
Speaker 2: that happens to all of that. But we're also getting
Speaker 2: more information than we're supposed to, Like we shouldn't be
Speaker 2: thinking about all.
Speaker 1: Dated with information. The twenty four hour news cycle is
Speaker 1: the devil.
Speaker 2: Like I don't know, I shouldn't know everything that's happening,
Speaker 2: but it's like everywhere you look, there's just like catastrophes
Speaker 2: and then we're you know, but then we gotta be happy. Yeah,
Speaker 2: all right, well we don't have anything.
Speaker 1: At least you don't have an evil twin who was
Speaker 1: trying to frame you for multiple rapes. So also, even
Speaker 1: if you think you didn't do it, and you know
Speaker 1: you one hundred percent are innocent, get a lawyer.
Speaker 2: Get a lawyer. Stop going to talk to the.
Speaker 1: Top dot hops alone. Don't do it.
Speaker 2: I got nothing to hide. Get a lawyer. It's just
Speaker 2: like ridiculous tr and night being such. Also, don't get
Speaker 2: neck tattoos if you're being casual. Yeah, fucking eight ball
Speaker 2: on his neck? Was that like? What? Oh? No, yyanyang?
Speaker 2: It was a yin yang.
Speaker 1: A neck tattoo is wild. Let's get into our what
Speaker 1: would Sister Peg Do? Segment?
Speaker 2: Guys.
Speaker 1: This is our weekly segment where we direct you towards
Speaker 1: a book, an organization, a article, something to help you
Speaker 1: learn a little bit more about what we talked about
Speaker 1: in today's episode. And for today's What would Sister Peg Do,
Speaker 1: we'd like to point you to a really interesting article
Speaker 1: in The New York Times about the recent advancements in
Speaker 1: DNA testing. And the article is called one twin committed
Speaker 1: the crime, but which one a new DNA test can
Speaker 1: finger the culprit. I don't really like it when we
Speaker 1: use finger in that way, but this is a good
Speaker 1: resource and it's written by Carl Zimmer. It explores some
Speaker 1: new DNA sequencing techniques that could potentially pinpoint genetic mutations
Speaker 1: in DNA that would allow for scientists to differentiate between
Speaker 1: identical twins. So pretty interesting and hopefully we won't have
Speaker 1: any more double strand situations going forward with this new technology.
Speaker 1: But an interesting article. It will be in our show notes.
Speaker 1: It will be also, as always on our Instagram under
Speaker 1: the what would Sister peg do the WWSPD highlight where
Speaker 1: we save all of those little babies.
Speaker 2: All right, thank you so much for that. And next
Speaker 2: week's episode will be Maternal Instincts. That's season seventeen, episode six.
Speaker 2: We're pumped you guys, listen watch along with us, and
Speaker 2: we'll see you next week. I that's messed up as
Speaker 2: an exactly write production. If you have compliments you'd like
Speaker 2: to give us, or episodes you'd like us to cover,
Speaker 2: shoot us an email it that's messed uppod at gmail
Speaker 2: dot com. Follow the podcast on Instagram. At That's Messed
Speaker 2: Up Pod and on Twitter at Messed Up Pod, and
Speaker 2: follow us personally at Kara Klank and at Glitter Cheese.
Speaker 1: As always, please see our show notes for sources and
Speaker 1: more information.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much to our producer Kacy O'Brien, and
Speaker 2: to our mixer John Bradley and our guest booker Patrick Cotner,
Speaker 2: and to Henry Kaperski for our theme song and Carly
Speaker 2: gen Andrews for our artwork.
Speaker 1: Thank you to our executive producers Georgia hard Start, Karen Kilgareff,
Speaker 1: Daniel Kramer, and everybody at Exactly Right Media.
Speaker 2: Dun dun