1 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:08,479 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and you're listening to stuff Moa 2 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:25,160 Speaker 1: Never told You Wealth listeners. It happened. I finally got 3 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 1: summoned for jury duty. I don't know how. I've never 4 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 1: been summoned before, but I haven't, and a part of 5 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 1: me thinks I'm still at jury duty. It really was 6 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:40,320 Speaker 1: impressively dull. Anyway, if you've never been or aren't entirely 7 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:43,880 Speaker 1: sure what it entails, it's mostly a lot of waiting. 8 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 1: There is finding out bias um listening to lawyers, to 9 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 1: the judge present the case, but a lot of waiting, 10 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 1: and you aren't allowed to use any electronic devices once 11 00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 1: you're in the courtroom. So I overheard my fellow jurors 12 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:03,400 Speaker 1: get to talk talking about true crime and how much 13 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 1: they love true crime. It was so cool to see 14 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:09,679 Speaker 1: a big lift for lawyers and defendants. Now, true crime 15 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 1: has never been my thing, but my friends love it 16 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 1: and it kind of jumps started this whole podcast thing. 17 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 1: If you think about cereal and women make up a 18 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:23,959 Speaker 1: decent chunk of that audience. For answers as to why 19 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 1: let's revisit this classic episode. Welcome to Stuff Mob Never 20 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:39,399 Speaker 1: Told You from how stup works dot Com. Hello, and 21 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:42,200 Speaker 1: welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline, And 22 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:46,480 Speaker 1: for our second Halloween themed episode of this year, we 23 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 1: are going to, rather than talking about the supernatural, talk 24 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:54,920 Speaker 1: about scary things in the real world, which to me 25 00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 1: are much scarier. Well, yeah, because they can actually jump 26 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 1: out and get you, exactly like racist costumes could jump 27 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 1: out and get you too. But yes, but we're going 28 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 1: to talk about women in true crime and specifically why 29 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:13,680 Speaker 1: women are so drawn to this genre. And this first 30 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:17,639 Speaker 1: caught my eye with a Time magazine article in September 31 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:25,239 Speaker 1: about the meteoric rise of Investigation Discovery, which full disclosure. 32 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:28,840 Speaker 1: Investigation Discovery is part of the How Stuff Works in 33 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:36,919 Speaker 1: Discovery Communications family of networks, and it's all centered around 34 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 1: true crime shows. Yeah. It's taking what is sometimes like 35 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:45,200 Speaker 1: a late night you know TV watching binge, and it's 36 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 1: putting it on twenty four hours a day. And it 37 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:52,800 Speaker 1: actually launched back in two thousand eight and two thousand nine, 38 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:57,240 Speaker 1: it earned the tagline of your Guilty Pleasure. Yeah, and 39 00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:00,560 Speaker 1: that with that tagline alone, you can see how the 40 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:03,240 Speaker 1: channel is already in two thousand nine, starting to queue 41 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:07,640 Speaker 1: into its more female audience, and now it is the 42 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:11,640 Speaker 1: fastest growing network for women and the eighth most popular 43 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:15,799 Speaker 1: cable channel among women to fifty four. And don't worry, 44 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 1: this is not going to be a major advertorial all 45 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 1: episode long for Investigation Discovery. But that is huge and 46 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:28,959 Speaker 1: notable growth. Yeah, and I mean even just recently it's 47 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:33,519 Speaker 1: it's really jumped up by Investigation Discovery or i D 48 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 1: showed a forty increase over the eighteen to forty nine 49 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 1: year old female viewer demographic, making it number four in 50 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 1: daytime delivery. So it's not anymore just like creepy crime 51 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 1: shows that you watch late at night with who's the 52 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 1: guy on Unsolved Mysteries that I watched as a Robert Walt, No, 53 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 1: that's the other one. Anyway, I watched it as a child, 54 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:57,120 Speaker 1: and it scared me so much, but I couldn't stop 55 00:03:57,160 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 1: watching it. I wasn't allowed to watch those kinds of 56 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 1: face was creepy and the screen was creepy because there 57 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:07,280 Speaker 1: was like a fog machine all the time. Yeah. So, 58 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 1: but anyway, it's taking that fear and just spanning it 59 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 1: over a whole day. Well in the daytime delivery is 60 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 1: also significant because that's why in the Time magazine headline 61 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 1: it asked a question, is true crime the new soap 62 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:24,039 Speaker 1: opera for women because we're watching it and not just 63 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 1: at night, but also during the day, and for those 64 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 1: of you who might not be familiar with I D shows, 65 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 1: it includes things like On the Case with Polizon, Final Witness, 66 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:37,920 Speaker 1: Wives with Knives, and then it kind of goes on 67 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 1: from there. You get the general gist of it. Yeah, 68 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of shows featuring women, both 69 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 1: in the criminal component and as the victim, a lot 70 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 1: of them having to do with uh, well, I'll just 71 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:55,120 Speaker 1: say that the stereotype of like shows about you know, 72 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 1: women going crazy and killing their husbands and stuff like 73 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:01,600 Speaker 1: that exists for a reason. Yeah. But the question is, though, 74 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 1: especially for those shows that aren't so much about the 75 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:09,720 Speaker 1: woman as a killer crazzed killer, but instead where the 76 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 1: woman is often the victim of a male perpetrator, why 77 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 1: some people wonder would we be so drawn to watching 78 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:20,719 Speaker 1: that almost putting ourselves in the place of that woman 79 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 1: who might be, you know, in the case of being 80 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:26,360 Speaker 1: stalked or in some horribly abusive relationship, or who's who 81 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:30,360 Speaker 1: ends up being murdered. And some scholars and also TV 82 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 1: execs suspect that it has to do with the fact 83 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 1: that with a lot of these true crime shows, it's 84 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 1: not just a glamorization of violence that's going on, but 85 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:45,200 Speaker 1: the fact that brings it full circle a lot of 86 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 1: times to that perpetrator being arrested. Right, it's telling the 87 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:54,239 Speaker 1: full story. You're getting that satisfying conclusion. And as Brad 88 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 1: Bushman points out he's a communications and psych professor at 89 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:01,680 Speaker 1: Ohio State University, it focuses as much on the consequences 90 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 1: as the violent act itself. It's not just talking about 91 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:09,160 Speaker 1: how some some poor victim is being killed or assaulted. 92 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 1: It is also focusing on actual justice. And he also 93 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 1: talks about how women are increasingly comfortable with the genre itself, 94 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 1: citing an uptick in quote unquote violent female role models 95 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 1: in the media and changing societal norms. He's saying that, 96 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 1: you know, it used to be socially unacceptable for women 97 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 1: to engage in such behavior, both the committing violent crimes 98 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 1: and even being interested in violence. Yeah, and Jane Latman, 99 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:41,280 Speaker 1: who is Investigation Discoveries head of Development, told Time Magazine 100 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 1: that she thinks that watching these shows offers a quote 101 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:52,480 Speaker 1: unquote cathartic journey for the female viewer that actually makes 102 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 1: us feel safer in the end because it brings you 103 00:06:56,760 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 1: face to face with those true crimes that happened, brings 104 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:05,120 Speaker 1: you face to face with these perpetrators, and then we 105 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 1: see them arrested and brought to justice. And so she 106 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 1: says it helps people kind of feel like, Okay, I 107 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 1: can go to bed and I'm not going to check 108 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 1: my door ten times. And similarly, Sarah Cauzozak, who's the 109 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 1: head of production for I D says that women might 110 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 1: also like it because it makes them feel comforted that, 111 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 1: by comparison to all these crazy plotlines going on, their 112 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 1: families have to be normal. Yeah. I mean, you know, 113 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 1: the worst my mother does is drunk Facebook message me 114 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:40,440 Speaker 1: or like text me from the department store, and so 115 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 1: I get a string of like ten texts and everything's 116 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 1: misspelled and and and it's confusing. But she hasn't murdered anyone. There, 117 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 1: you go, that's good because yeah, a lot of these yeah, 118 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 1: they do focus on family sagas, and so by comparison, 119 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 1: my family is pretty tame. But Henry Schlife, who became 120 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 1: I D S President back into thousand nine, had previously 121 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 1: run Court TV, which has a similar bent, and he 122 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 1: said that what we learned there, and certainly what you 123 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 1: can see here, is that women really love not just 124 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 1: the crime and justice genre, but the storytelling and puzzle 125 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 1: solving all around it. It feels very neat and tidy 126 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 1: when you're watching one of those shows. I don't watch 127 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 1: them because I will get sucked in. Um. I have 128 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 1: a friend who like obsessively goes howm it just like 129 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 1: turns on crime shows and watches them all night long. 130 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 1: I would not be able to sleep probably, But yeah, 131 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 1: I I tend not to want to get sucked in. 132 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:37,200 Speaker 1: But I do agree that they are tied up very nicely. 133 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:39,240 Speaker 1: You feel a sense of order in the world when 134 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 1: you when you watch these narratives happen. Yeah. And even 135 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:47,560 Speaker 1: though Investigation Discovery is a relatively new network, um and 136 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 1: we've had shows in the past, things like Unsolved Mystery 137 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:54,199 Speaker 1: and Court TV in a different kind of way we 138 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 1: had We've had true crime on TV for a while, 139 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:00,840 Speaker 1: but not in the two fourth seven kind of format 140 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 1: of I D. But of course, this true crime genre 141 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:08,520 Speaker 1: and its appeal to women has been around a lot 142 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 1: longer in the form of true crime books. Yeah, just 143 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:17,080 Speaker 1: like women are the biggest audience for romance novels. We 144 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:22,640 Speaker 1: are also the largest buyers of mystery books and suspense thrillers. 145 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 1: And as Gene Merley points out in her book The 146 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 1: Rise of True Crime, this genre, especially in the written form, 147 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:33,600 Speaker 1: has been around for a very long time, and she 148 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:36,199 Speaker 1: says that what looks like voyeurism or thrill seeking may 149 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:41,960 Speaker 1: actually mask the gut level human desire to comprehend the irrational. Yeah, 150 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:44,040 Speaker 1: and if you are a fan of true crime, I 151 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 1: do want to plug Jean Merley's book because it is 152 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:51,679 Speaker 1: fascinating to take a deeper look into this appeal and 153 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 1: how it coincides with violence and society. Um So, she 154 00:09:56,640 --> 00:10:01,079 Speaker 1: talks about how modern true crimes earliest appearance is made 155 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 1: in the Detective magazine in the nineteen forties and fifties. 156 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:09,840 Speaker 1: Although in the nineteenth century we had depictions that distance 157 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:14,320 Speaker 1: the killer through the language of monstrosity, we already have 158 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 1: you know, they're obviously like more violent texts that are 159 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:20,080 Speaker 1: going on before the nineteen forties and fifties, but the 160 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:24,960 Speaker 1: language of it evolves. Right, it's the whole scary person 161 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:28,679 Speaker 1: standing in the shadows, that whole distancing, it's it's not 162 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:32,720 Speaker 1: your husband or your cousin who's coming and assaulting you 163 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 1: or hurting you and your family. It's some crazy, psychopathic other. 164 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:40,920 Speaker 1: And then this develops, and in the early twentieth century 165 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 1: we have Edmund Pearson's whose popular murder narratives used more 166 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:49,679 Speaker 1: of a self mocking, almost sarcastic tone to his crime stories, 167 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:53,200 Speaker 1: which then gives way to the hard boiled style of 168 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 1: crime fiction, which found its way into the narratives of 169 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:59,840 Speaker 1: the thirties and forties. And with the hard boiled style, 170 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:05,000 Speaker 1: which is really distinct to American crime writing, it brings 171 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:10,440 Speaker 1: those true crime aspects to the forefront. It gets gritty, 172 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 1: there's graphic sex and violence. You often have sordid urban 173 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:20,480 Speaker 1: backgrounds and fast paced, slangy dialogue. Yeah. And then in 174 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 1: the nineteen sixties we start to see a very interesting 175 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 1: parallel two things going in opposite directions. Crime narratives around 176 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 1: this time end up running counter two issues that are 177 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 1: emerging in society, things like civil rights feminism. Because you 178 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:40,840 Speaker 1: have a genre, a narrative that is intensely gendered in 179 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 1: its appeal but very misogynist in its subject matter. But 180 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:48,240 Speaker 1: it also, on top of this, avoids any discussion of 181 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 1: race and multiculturalism, and in terms of what's meant by 182 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:56,960 Speaker 1: misogynist subject matter, it's continually the pattern of placing the 183 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:00,319 Speaker 1: woman as the victim and usually being drawn in by 184 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:04,959 Speaker 1: these men's charms. And so some more feminist scholars too 185 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:10,640 Speaker 1: will will look at true crime as being very misogynistic. Um, 186 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:14,200 Speaker 1: but it's also a reflection of in a response to 187 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:19,200 Speaker 1: arise in violent and seemingly random crime that starts to 188 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 1: escalate in the sixties and then throughout the seventies, eighties, 189 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:27,000 Speaker 1: and nineties, there's this enormous anxiety in American culture about 190 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:30,559 Speaker 1: a specific type of crime that was interpreted as an 191 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:35,760 Speaker 1: indicator of a widespread and irreversible decline in the care, compassion, 192 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 1: and regard for others. It's like, as society was becoming 193 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 1: almost more distanced from itself, this coldness set in, and 194 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 1: so we have the rise of terms like psychopath and 195 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:54,960 Speaker 1: sociopath to indicate the monster that first emerged in those 196 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:59,959 Speaker 1: earlier nineteenth century texts. Yeah, it becomes uh more clear 197 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:02,880 Speaker 1: or for readers to try to use that term, that 198 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:06,959 Speaker 1: mothering term of a psychopath or sociopath to indicate, Okay, well, 199 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 1: this is the scary person they obviously are not normal. 200 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:11,960 Speaker 1: They don't have a conscience, so they are bad. There's 201 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:15,200 Speaker 1: more of a black and white distinction there. And simultaneously 202 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:20,600 Speaker 1: you can see this evolution from true crime making sense 203 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:24,200 Speaker 1: of things like the Manson killings. When you have these 204 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 1: books coming out in the seventies and then in the 205 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:29,200 Speaker 1: eighties and nineties, it's as though true crime takes on 206 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:34,960 Speaker 1: almost an educational tech. Whereas Jean Merley points out, all 207 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 1: of a sudden, these consumers of true crime books are 208 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 1: able to talk about details of forensics work, profiling, and 209 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:46,800 Speaker 1: highly technical aspects of criminology. People can talk about blood 210 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 1: spatter patterns and things like that. Yeah, but I mean 211 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 1: that's where we get the terms crime porn. I mean 212 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:55,200 Speaker 1: that that people talk about when they talk about these 213 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 1: kinds of shows, because you start getting it moves from 214 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:02,000 Speaker 1: the serials and books of the thirties and forties and 215 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:05,680 Speaker 1: fifties into television shows featuring all of this stuff, and 216 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 1: it shows close ups of bruises and blood splatter, and people, 217 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 1: particularly women, just can't get enough. And and part of 218 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:18,600 Speaker 1: it is like we have this rise of a celebrity culture, 219 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 1: and so a lot of these sociopathic others you know, 220 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 1: these killers become their own sort of crazy celebrity figures. 221 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean, take Manson alone. It's there are 222 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 1: still people who are followers of Manson because of the 223 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 1: notoriety that he received, even in two thousand thirteen. There's 224 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 1: still people out there. And we're about to delve into 225 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 1: the appeal of true crime to women specifically, but before 226 00:14:46,800 --> 00:15:00,640 Speaker 1: we do, let's take a quick break. So clearly, the 227 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:04,440 Speaker 1: enduring popularity of true crime and it's expansion from magazines 228 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 1: to books to television really does pray a lot on 229 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 1: societal fears, maybe changes in the domestic sphere, all of 230 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 1: the different societal changes that have been going on in 231 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 1: the past fifty years. But what is it more specifically 232 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 1: about this appeal to women. I mean, we've talked about 233 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 1: ideas that maybe we like watching these shows because there's Catharsis, 234 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:33,760 Speaker 1: we like to see justice, we like to feel more 235 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 1: normal in our day to day by comparison um. But 236 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 1: Laura Browder wrote a study called Dystopian Romance, True Crime 237 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 1: and the Female Reader, and what she did for it 238 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 1: was really just talked to a number of true crime addicts, 239 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 1: specifically true crime books, right, and she found that Uh. 240 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 1: It boiled down to the fact that many of these readers, 241 00:15:57,320 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 1: from all different types of backgrounds, they had, all different 242 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:03,280 Speaker 1: types of professions, typically read these types of books to 243 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:08,200 Speaker 1: help themselves cope with this overarching patriarchal article violence that 244 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 1: they have encountered in the past and that they fear 245 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:13,440 Speaker 1: still in the present. Because we talked about how, you know, 246 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 1: like the shows in particular, it ties it up all 247 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 1: nice and tidy, and so you feel you feel better 248 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 1: and more reassured that everything is going to be okay. Well, 249 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 1: these women that she talked to are using these books 250 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 1: kind of in the same way, reading about this terrible 251 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:31,040 Speaker 1: crime that happens, how it is solved, but also trying 252 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:33,320 Speaker 1: to get out of it something along the lines of 253 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 1: what do I do in that situation? They're actually kind 254 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:38,840 Speaker 1: of seeking answers from it. Yeah, And when you think 255 00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 1: about women's fear of violence, there is a counterintuitive aspect 256 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:48,320 Speaker 1: to it, because research shows that we fear becoming victims 257 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 1: of violent crime more than men, even though excluding things 258 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 1: like rape and sexual assault, men are more likely to 259 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:59,640 Speaker 1: be involved in violent crime. And on top of that, 260 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:03,200 Speaker 1: and study found that women are more turned off by 261 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:09,480 Speaker 1: thoughts of gory experiences, which adds to me another fascinating 262 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:14,359 Speaker 1: dimension to this true crime appeal because in a way, 263 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:18,360 Speaker 1: it's it's this direct violation of a taboo because we're 264 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:22,080 Speaker 1: not supposed to, you know, be into violence. We are 265 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:24,919 Speaker 1: turned off by gore, we are afraid of on So 266 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:27,760 Speaker 1: why why would we why would we want to confront 267 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 1: it in such a way. And so, yeah, there's this 268 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 1: idea that it helps us get into the mind of 269 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:36,719 Speaker 1: who our potential attackers might be, so that if that 270 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 1: happens in the real world, then we'll know how to escape, 271 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:44,920 Speaker 1: right But she points out that as you know, reassured 272 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:48,080 Speaker 1: us that might make you feel as the reader, you know, 273 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:50,359 Speaker 1: you still will never be able to get into the 274 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:54,080 Speaker 1: minds of random crazy killers because that's just what they're 275 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 1: gonna do. Random crazy killers are going to randomly, crazily 276 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 1: kill people, and there's not much that you know, you 277 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:04,200 Speaker 1: can do. It's like you're building a bomb shelter underneath 278 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 1: your house and filling it with spam, that kind of thing. 279 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:12,479 Speaker 1: But nevertheless, because it's presented as true crime, it is 280 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:18,959 Speaker 1: the reality of those situations happening that really pulls a 281 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 1: lot of women in. There was one woman who told 282 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:24,320 Speaker 1: Browder why would anyone read fiction when the reality is 283 00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:27,800 Speaker 1: so much more extreme? And she talks about how true 284 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:32,679 Speaker 1: crime books usually will involve photographs of the killer and 285 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 1: the victim, and sometimes both of them together if they 286 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 1: had been a couple, for instance, and uh, and there's 287 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:43,119 Speaker 1: also speaking of uh, you know, the man killing the 288 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:45,399 Speaker 1: woman and if they had been a couple. There is 289 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:48,160 Speaker 1: a lot of sex that gets tied up with true 290 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 1: crime as well, and for some readers, in reading true crime, 291 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:57,960 Speaker 1: women vicariously experience kinky sex and violence and survive. And 292 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 1: that is also an a feel to some women. Yeah, 293 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:05,240 Speaker 1: that's that's actually a really interesting point. And and she 294 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:08,399 Speaker 1: does h links. She links these books and this genre 295 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:12,639 Speaker 1: not only to the taboo of looking at porn, but 296 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:16,400 Speaker 1: kind of you know, where that romance novel that they 297 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:19,840 Speaker 1: picked up at the drug store leaves off. So you know, 298 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:22,880 Speaker 1: a lot of times this this true crime, these these 299 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 1: terrible crimes that are written about happen among families or 300 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 1: among couples, and so you know, she she has this 301 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:32,120 Speaker 1: narrative of okay, well, so you read the romance novel 302 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:35,359 Speaker 1: where the dominant man, you know, swoops in on his horse. 303 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:38,320 Speaker 1: You know, Fabio comes in and he marries the princess 304 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 1: or whatever. But then what happens after the domineering man 305 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:45,600 Speaker 1: comes in? What happens when Fabio turns out of the 306 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:50,280 Speaker 1: Ted Bundy right, exactly. Yeah, And she talks about how, 307 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:54,960 Speaker 1: in contrast to romance novels that culminate in marriage, true 308 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 1: crime culminates in punishment. And that's the satisfaction gleaned of 309 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:04,360 Speaker 1: seeing these men whom the female protagonists might have been 310 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:07,439 Speaker 1: madly in love with. At some point, you know, we 311 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:11,240 Speaker 1: see him brought to justice somehow, hopefully. Right. Oh. Yeah, 312 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:12,600 Speaker 1: A lot of the women she talked to, you said, 313 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:16,360 Speaker 1: they stopped reading when he got sentenced or whatever. Yeah, 314 00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:18,639 Speaker 1: they don't care what happens. As long as he's behind bars, 315 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:22,919 Speaker 1: then that's fine. And in addition to sexual politics that 316 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 1: are going on within these books, there obviously are as 317 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 1: we have implied, plenty of gender politics to dissect as well. 318 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:36,119 Speaker 1: For instance, Broughder notes how there was a boom in 319 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:39,040 Speaker 1: true crime that paralleled the rise of the women's movement 320 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 1: in the seventies. Yeah, and then she focuses a lot 321 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:47,960 Speaker 1: also on one true crime narrative in which the killer 322 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:50,720 Speaker 1: was a woman and not only was the killer a woman, 323 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 1: but she killed her children, so already that's two strikes 324 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:59,200 Speaker 1: against gender norms. And she focuses a lot on people's 325 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 1: percept sans of that woman and how she was so 326 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:07,920 Speaker 1: much less sympathetic because of the fact that she wasn't 327 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:12,000 Speaker 1: playing gender right basically, and other scholars point out that, 328 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 1: you know, this style of book, the style of writing 329 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:18,360 Speaker 1: lets you be kind of an armchair killer. So whoever 330 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 1: the killer is, particularly if it's female like it lets 331 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:24,719 Speaker 1: us act out or or imagine the things that we 332 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:28,720 Speaker 1: would never do in reality. But here in that particular case, 333 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:32,560 Speaker 1: for instance, when the killer is a killer because she 334 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:35,439 Speaker 1: has killed her children all of a sudden, that is 335 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:40,360 Speaker 1: so much less palatable to the reading audience. And that's 336 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:43,240 Speaker 1: one reason why, perhaps in a more recent study that 337 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:47,680 Speaker 1: came out in also looking at why women are drawn 338 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:51,399 Speaker 1: to true crime novels, um women consider true crime books 339 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:57,400 Speaker 1: more appealing when the victims are female, rather than if 340 00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:01,200 Speaker 1: you are reading about a female murderer or sociopath or psychopath, 341 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 1: whatever kind of path. Yeah, and a lot of that 342 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:07,440 Speaker 1: goes back to what we touched on as far as 343 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:12,119 Speaker 1: women being able to put themselves in that vulnerable woman's 344 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 1: position and gain tips. It's like being able to try 345 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 1: to keep an eye out learning what you can, learning 346 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:22,400 Speaker 1: those fitness relevant tips to keep your own self safe 347 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:25,359 Speaker 1: if you were ever to happen to get in a 348 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:28,159 Speaker 1: situation like this. But at the same time, there is 349 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:32,359 Speaker 1: something that scholars call the fear victimization paradox, which is 350 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:38,080 Speaker 1: that mismatch of our elevated rates of fear that something 351 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 1: is terrible is going to happen to us, that we 352 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:45,720 Speaker 1: are going to be assaulted, murdered, etcetera versus how men 353 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:49,399 Speaker 1: are far more likely to be the victims of violent crime. 354 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:53,639 Speaker 1: But still at the same time, some caution that the 355 00:22:54,760 --> 00:23:00,320 Speaker 1: escalated true crime media saturated environment that we are living 356 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:02,959 Speaker 1: in where if you turn on the news, it's a 357 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:05,240 Speaker 1: lot of violent crime. If you turn on you know, 358 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:09,760 Speaker 1: obviously investigation Discovery, it's crime to four seven. And then 359 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:12,720 Speaker 1: if you're also reading these books, it's kind of everywhere 360 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 1: that there's a problem with it almost turning it into fiction. 361 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:23,919 Speaker 1: There is a distancing effect when when we look at 362 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:27,960 Speaker 1: the statistics, there are you know, crimes that are happening 363 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:31,120 Speaker 1: specifically to women, and we also to have to talk 364 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:34,119 Speaker 1: about the fact that a lot of times, not just 365 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:37,439 Speaker 1: in true crime, but also in news stories that we 366 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:42,960 Speaker 1: hear about with women as victims, it's always white women. 367 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:46,040 Speaker 1: For the most part, it's white middle class women, whereas 368 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:51,879 Speaker 1: crimes against women of color are severely under reported. Yeah, 369 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:56,120 Speaker 1: I I those are all incredible points, because, Yeah, when 370 00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:58,919 Speaker 1: you're sitting there on your comfy couch with your popcorn 371 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 1: or whatever, and you're watching a show about some grizzly murder, 372 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:06,400 Speaker 1: it is easy, especially if you're watching a marathon of it. 373 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,439 Speaker 1: It is so easy to sink into that feeling of 374 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 1: like I'm safe, it's fine, you know, this is this 375 00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:18,400 Speaker 1: is just entertainment, and so it completely distances us from 376 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:23,959 Speaker 1: actual statistics of sexual violence. Yeah, and specifically, you know, 377 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:26,679 Speaker 1: one in five women is raped, nearly twice that have 378 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:31,679 Speaker 1: experienced rape, physical violence, or stalking, and sexual assault rates 379 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:35,359 Speaker 1: are higher for black women than white women, according to 380 00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 1: the Office on Violence against Women in the National Institute 381 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:42,879 Speaker 1: of Justice. Specifically, the rate of intimate partner violence against 382 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 1: black women is about twice that for white women, with 383 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:51,399 Speaker 1: economic distress hugely proportionate to violence. And instead, what we 384 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:55,440 Speaker 1: hear from these shows are anecdotes and twisted lessons about 385 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 1: violence and crime all starring white women, and the attackers 386 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,920 Speaker 1: are depicted it is strangers, and don't worry because forensics 387 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:06,639 Speaker 1: science will solve everything. But when you look at the 388 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 1: reality of these situations, that's just not the case. Typically 389 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:13,120 Speaker 1: it is someone the attacker is someone the woman knows intimately, 390 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:16,439 Speaker 1: whether it's a family member or a close friend, and 391 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 1: often those attackers are the attacks themselves are not reported, 392 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 1: and the attackers don't go to jail. Yeah, and this 393 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:27,760 Speaker 1: is kind of a side note, but in Gertrude Stein 394 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 1: actually wrote about this for the New York Tribune in 395 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 1: an article called American Crimes and How They Matter, and 396 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:36,760 Speaker 1: she said, there are only two kinds of crime that 397 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:39,960 Speaker 1: people care about, the crime hero and the crime mystery. 398 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,160 Speaker 1: All the other crimes everybody forgets as soon as they 399 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:45,760 Speaker 1: find out who did them. And if we fast forward 400 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:51,200 Speaker 1: that too today, it really is almost that blown up 401 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:54,919 Speaker 1: out of proportion, because it's almost as though our crimes 402 00:25:54,920 --> 00:26:01,960 Speaker 1: are becoming dehumanized and victims become characters, and everything is 403 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:05,320 Speaker 1: so formulate to the point to where it's always the 404 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:09,359 Speaker 1: same cast of characters, looking the same and in the 405 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:14,960 Speaker 1: same socio economic class, where that's a very unrealistic snapshot 406 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:19,360 Speaker 1: of what true crime is truly. Yeah, and I mean 407 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:23,480 Speaker 1: it is. I don't want to take away anyone's television 408 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:25,960 Speaker 1: or anything, but it is too bad that a lot 409 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:30,680 Speaker 1: of the time shows like this, networks like this, Uh, 410 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:34,480 Speaker 1: they attract so many eyeballs, and that means that eyeballs 411 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 1: are not going to your local news, They're not going 412 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:42,160 Speaker 1: to your newspaper. So you're less aware almost and and 413 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 1: you know, maybe you're not. But I worry that maybe 414 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:47,760 Speaker 1: people are less aware of the actual crime that's going 415 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:49,840 Speaker 1: on in their own community, the stuff that they really 416 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:54,440 Speaker 1: need to worry about, versus things that are more abstract. 417 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:57,119 Speaker 1: And I do have to well, we do have to 418 00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:01,679 Speaker 1: give props to Investigation Discovery for some self awareness of this, 419 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:06,440 Speaker 1: because they do promote educational things in terms of teaching 420 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:11,400 Speaker 1: women about crime, risk and safety and domestic violence. But 421 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 1: I do want to know from true crime fans out 422 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:17,840 Speaker 1: there what the appeal is and whether or not it 423 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:20,359 Speaker 1: makes you feel less safe, because for me, if I 424 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:23,560 Speaker 1: want to watch a scary movie, it's gonna be something 425 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:27,320 Speaker 1: along the lines of a zombie because I know that 426 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:30,160 Speaker 1: that's not going to happen to me and I can 427 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 1: deal with that, but stranger danger kind of things, that 428 00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:38,840 Speaker 1: sort of true crime it terrifies me because that's the 429 00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:40,920 Speaker 1: stuff that gets in my head of oh no, there 430 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:44,720 Speaker 1: actually could be someone out there who wants to do 431 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 1: horrible things to me. So I'm not in the demographic 432 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 1: that the I'm not in that female audience of true 433 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 1: crime addiction me neither. I I I if I'm gonna 434 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:03,440 Speaker 1: watch watch something about crime, I would rather watch, honestly, 435 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:06,800 Speaker 1: like Law and Order s v U. Which is already 436 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:12,840 Speaker 1: about horrific subject matter, but that is completely completely fake exactly. 437 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:16,720 Speaker 1: There's that that distancing factor in there. But as was it. 438 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:20,120 Speaker 1: Browder pointed out in her study, a lot of these 439 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:24,840 Speaker 1: women who were the most drawn into true crime had 440 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:27,920 Speaker 1: been victims of crime, right, And I could totally see 441 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 1: how watching it or reading it and reliving it in 442 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:37,160 Speaker 1: that sense could be therapeutic. Yeah, give you a sense 443 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:39,960 Speaker 1: of control over it, try to find answers as to 444 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 1: why it happens to other people. Yeah, and camaraderie for 445 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:47,400 Speaker 1: victims who survive and are okay after that. So, I mean, 446 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 1: it's it's a it's a highly nuanced drama. It's not 447 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:53,600 Speaker 1: just violence. And gore, and that's it. There's a lot 448 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,840 Speaker 1: of stuff tied up with it when you start to 449 00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:01,320 Speaker 1: untangle all of these different social element its gender politics, 450 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:05,800 Speaker 1: sexual politics, which is one thing that the two thousand 451 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 1: ten study that got a lot of press um looking 452 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:12,160 Speaker 1: at why women are obsessed with true crime it got 453 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:16,840 Speaker 1: some criticism because it completely neglected the sexual politics aspect. 454 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:19,920 Speaker 1: No one wants to say that, Well, some women might 455 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 1: like it in the same way that we like romance 456 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 1: novels for the kink. Here aspects of it too. So 457 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:30,720 Speaker 1: here's Yeah, there's a lot of a lot of taboos 458 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:34,960 Speaker 1: being violated in true crime books. Yeah, so this is 459 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:37,440 Speaker 1: where we want to hear from you. Send us an 460 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:41,240 Speaker 1: email at mom Stuff at Discovery dot com, and we 461 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,520 Speaker 1: have some listener mail for you. But before we read it, 462 00:29:44,760 --> 00:30:00,880 Speaker 1: we have a quick break and now back to our letters. So, Caroline, 463 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 1: I have a letter here from a listener who would 464 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,240 Speaker 1: like to remain anonymous. So I am going to call 465 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:10,960 Speaker 1: this listener Bert. Bert is not his or her name. 466 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:16,640 Speaker 1: So Bert writes, hello, female identified human persons, just listen 467 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,640 Speaker 1: to what's the difference between gender and sects? And had 468 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,160 Speaker 1: a couple of things to share when I first started 469 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:25,160 Speaker 1: working in healthcare fifteen years ago, I encountered a baby 470 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:29,040 Speaker 1: born with ambiguous genitalia. I didn't really understand how this 471 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:32,160 Speaker 1: could be unclear until I saw the quote unquote down 472 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:35,640 Speaker 1: below bits and it really was hard to call. This 473 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 1: baby was born to very traditional parents from another culture, 474 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:42,840 Speaker 1: and they were very distraught. You mentioned picking names, but 475 00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:45,920 Speaker 1: what about telling the rest of your family. Usually it's 476 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 1: a boy or it's a girl is the first thing 477 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,280 Speaker 1: that happy dad shouts when he comes into the waiting room. 478 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:54,360 Speaker 1: But in these cases, what can you say. In this 479 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 1: particular case, there was a significant cultural pressure to produce 480 00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:02,280 Speaker 1: a son or air, so this ambiguous quote unquote situation 481 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:05,920 Speaker 1: was just about intolerable. The baby was a pre meat 482 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:07,720 Speaker 1: in state at the hospital for about a month, but 483 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:11,120 Speaker 1: had very few visitors, including only rare visits for mom 484 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,320 Speaker 1: and dad. The last I heard was that they were 485 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:15,880 Speaker 1: waiting for a DNA test, but as you know, that 486 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:19,480 Speaker 1: still doesn't guarantee the child will want to identify himself 487 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:22,400 Speaker 1: herself as the sex that best matches the d n A. 488 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:25,960 Speaker 1: I pray the parents didn't feel pressured to perform assignment 489 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,520 Speaker 1: surgery too early, and that the child is now a 490 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:34,280 Speaker 1: healthy and happy team. So thanks Anonymous Burt for sharing 491 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:38,480 Speaker 1: that experience, and if you have experiences to share with us, 492 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:41,120 Speaker 1: you know where to email us. Mom Stuff at discovery 493 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:43,040 Speaker 1: dot com is where you can send your letters. You 494 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:45,440 Speaker 1: can also find us on Facebook and messages there, or 495 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:48,480 Speaker 1: follow us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcasts, and we 496 00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:51,120 Speaker 1: are also on Instagram. You're gonna want to check out 497 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 1: all of our Halloween snaps we got. You can follow 498 00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:58,160 Speaker 1: us at stuff mom Never Told You, and we have 499 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:01,480 Speaker 1: some hilarious Halloween eos check out as well on our 500 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:05,400 Speaker 1: YouTube channel. It's YouTube dot com slash stuff mom Never 501 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:11,520 Speaker 1: Told You, and don't forget to subscribe for more on 502 00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:14,000 Speaker 1: this and thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff 503 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:23,720 Speaker 1: works dot com