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Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 2: I do believe that autism does come from vaccines.

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Speaker 1: There's no vaccine that is safe and effective. Robert F.

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Speaker 1: Kennedy Junior has spent decades spreading his anti vax beliefs,

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Speaker 1: and his debunk theory that vaccines cause autism is just

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Speaker 1: one of the dizzy number of health conspiracy theories he's

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Speaker 1: advanced over the years. Some others that chemicals in the

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Speaker 1: water can cause children to turn transgender, that school shootings

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Speaker 1: are caused by antidepressants, that Wi FI causes cancer, and

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Speaker 1: that AIDS is not caused by HIV. And President elect

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump has picked Kennedy to control the world's largest

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Speaker 1: public health agency as Health and Human Services Secretary.

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Speaker 2: We want you to come up with things and ideas

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Speaker 2: and what you've been talking about for a long time.

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Speaker 2: And I think you're going to do some unbelievable thing.

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Speaker 2: Nobody's going to be able to do it like you.

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Speaker 1: And that's just what health experts are afraid of, that

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Speaker 1: Kennedy will be able to do some unbelievable things, things

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Speaker 1: detrimental to the health of Americans. By making good on

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Speaker 1: his promises that are based on junk science and debunked theories.

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Speaker 1: If confirmed, Kennedy will control an agency with a massive reach,

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Speaker 1: from providing health insurance for nearly half the country to

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Speaker 1: overseeing research of vaccines, diseases, and cures, to regulating the

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Speaker 1: medications found in our medicine cabinets and inspecting the foods

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Speaker 1: that end up in our cupboards. Joining me is healthcare

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Speaker 1: attorney Harry Nelson of Leech Tishman Nelson Hardiman Harry, just

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Speaker 1: how much power does the Health and Human Services Secretary have?

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Speaker 3: So?

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Speaker 4: As Secretary of Health and Human Services, r K would

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Speaker 4: actually oversee the whole seri of federal agencies that are

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Speaker 4: health related, the primary ones being the Food and Drug Administration,

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Speaker 4: The SEA is part of Health and Human Services before

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Speaker 4: Nationalist due to Health and Center for Disease Control, and

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Speaker 4: also the Center for Medicare and Medicaid Services CMS, which

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Speaker 4: which regulates most federal spending. He also would oversee a

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Speaker 4: whole series of federal funding the clinics under various other

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Speaker 4: federal health programs for family planning, and a whole series

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Speaker 4: of other things that are kind of adjacent cities to

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Speaker 4: major agencies.

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Speaker 1: It's hard to know where to start, because he has

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Speaker 1: advanced so many conspiracy theories related to health over the years.

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Speaker 1: Let's start with vaccines, because he's one of the most

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Speaker 1: famous anti vaxers in the country, and he said just

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Speaker 1: in July, there's no vaccine that is safe and effective.

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Speaker 1: He's repeatedly said that vaccines cause autism. He's also said

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Speaker 1: recently that he won't take vaccines away from Americans. But

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Speaker 1: what can he do? You know?

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Speaker 4: Health and Human Services really is the federal agency that

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Speaker 4: manages public trust in vaccine programs. It's responsible for vaccine rollouts.

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Speaker 4: There's also a Financial Institute of Health and Zennifer disease Control,

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Speaker 4: kind of these key federal agencies that are really responsible

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Speaker 4: for putting out good information about vaccines. And so the

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Speaker 4: idea that someone who has been an active proponent of

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Speaker 4: vaccine misinformation, you know, is going to be in charge

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Speaker 4: as a little or shocking, and certainly the ability of

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Speaker 4: his expressed beliefs to become part of federal policy or

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Speaker 4: to at least interfere with getting vaccines out there, potentially

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Speaker 4: with funding for vaccines and for just sort of distribution

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Speaker 4: is somewhat terrifying.

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Speaker 1: Are any of his theories about vaccines, are any of

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Speaker 1: them based in reality.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I haven't studied every single thing he said,

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Speaker 4: but it's much to keep track of that very public

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Speaker 4: about some very active misinformation. And it just seems to

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Speaker 4: me that he has such a complete distrust for pharma. Certainly,

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Speaker 4: I don't think we should just say that the pharmaceutical

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Speaker 4: industries are perfect, but he has allowed that broad distrust

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Speaker 4: he has for everything about the pharmaceutical industry to basically

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Speaker 4: lead him to the belief that vaccines are just essentially

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Speaker 4: some kind of a racket that are actually causing problems

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Speaker 4: in the world. And it's a crazy position. It's not

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Speaker 4: a position that is defensible by reference to any evidence.

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Speaker 1: I mean, with vaccine rates slipping, haven't we seen some

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Speaker 1: outbreaks of measles and other diseases that had previously been

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Speaker 1: stamped out.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, we've seen that. We've seen, actually, yeah, a return

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Speaker 4: of all kinds of diseases that had largely been suppressed

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Speaker 4: and eradicated are coming back. Measles is a good example.

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Speaker 4: There's no question that vaccine usage overall in the United

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Speaker 4: States is found that more and more parents are choosing

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Speaker 4: not to vaccinate their kids. You know, he's been a

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Speaker 4: persistent promoter of this debunkt heor that vaccines are linked

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Speaker 4: to autism, particularly like the chemical cinerosol, And so there's

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Speaker 4: no question that he's causing the anti vax position to

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Speaker 4: seem to have credibility in the public mind, even though

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Speaker 4: it has absolutely no evidence and has been thoroughly debunked.

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Speaker 1: So even though he says he's not going to take

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Speaker 1: vaccines away, the co chair of Trump's transition team recently

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Speaker 1: said Kennedy wanted to access federal health data with the

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Speaker 1: goal of proving vaccines or unsafe and pulling them from

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Speaker 1: the market. What would he have to do to undo

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Speaker 1: the approval of an already approved vaccine.

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Speaker 4: I think it's not going to be an easy path

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Speaker 4: for him to disrupt approval of vaccines or frankly any drugs.

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Speaker 4: He can certainly, you know, install leadership and convene task

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Speaker 4: forces that are sort of tasked with exploring you know,

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Speaker 4: fraud or exploring problems with vaccines, But there is actually, thankfully,

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Speaker 4: a process of review at the FDA that will be

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Speaker 4: dragged out and will not allow for this decision to

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Speaker 4: be made quickly. There would have to be presentation of evidence.

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Speaker 4: So I think he can start this and he can

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Speaker 4: generate a lot of headlines for it, but I actually

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Speaker 4: have trouble believing that he'll actually be able to advance

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Speaker 4: the process, at least based on what we know now

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Speaker 4: about vaccines and the scent to which they have been

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Speaker 4: positively transformative of public health in nearly every case.

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Speaker 1: Don't drug makers also have a lot of influence in

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Speaker 1: Congress with the money they've spent.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I think it was very interesting. RFK

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Speaker 4: put out a couple of weeks before the election a

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Speaker 4: sort of statement to pharmaceutical industry and to anyone who's

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Speaker 4: lobbied for them, that they should watch out, they should

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Speaker 4: save their records, and they should know he would be

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Speaker 4: coming for them if Trump won. So it certainly is

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Speaker 4: not a good time to be a pharmaceutical lobbyist, at

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Speaker 4: least from the standpoint of an RFK led FDA. But

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Speaker 4: there's no question that the pharmaceutical industry is one of

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Speaker 4: it's not the most powerful lobby and we've seen the

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Speaker 4: way that the United States has protected inflated pricing, for example,

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Speaker 4: for pharmaceuticals, even as prices are lower throughout the rest

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Speaker 4: of the world. By limiting the ability of the government

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Speaker 4: to negotiate prices. That's just one example. We've seen a

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Speaker 4: very cozy relationship between the federal government and the pharmaceutical

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Speaker 4: industry for the most part, and I do think that

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Speaker 4: this signals a new shift. That's all you have to

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Speaker 4: do is watch the stock prices of pharmaceuticals and you

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Speaker 4: can see a lot of people are worried.

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Speaker 1: So over the weekend at an event, Kennedy said on

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Speaker 1: January twenty first, six hundred people are going to walk

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Speaker 1: into the offices at NIH and six hundred people are

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Speaker 1: going to leave. Can he just wholesale fire six hundred people?

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Speaker 4: So there's a distinction in the agencies between people who

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Speaker 4: hold political positions that are recognized to be specific political

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Speaker 4: appointment and then the long time sort of staff at

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Speaker 4: lower levels. So yeah, this business that he talked about

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Speaker 4: about firing six hundred people at the National Institue to

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Speaker 4: Health and replacing with new people, it seems excessive. Clearly,

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Speaker 4: the Trump administration and under Kensey's leadership, could absolutely replace

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Speaker 4: all the political appointments. And I don't know the exact number,

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Speaker 4: but I suspect those are in the dozens, but not

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Speaker 4: in the hundreds, and that the real question will be

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Speaker 4: whether agency staff further down below in non political roles,

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Speaker 4: you know, are going to want to be around and

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Speaker 4: be part of an administration and are going to stick

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Speaker 4: around to resist what's going to happen, or whether they're

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Speaker 4: just going to think the time is right to get out.

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Speaker 4: But I don't think he can YouTube this unilaterally.

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Speaker 1: After vaccines. Another one of Kennedy's big targets is getting

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Speaker 1: rid of fluoride in the water. There has been floride

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Speaker 1: in the water in the US since nineteen forty five,

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Speaker 1: So explain what it does.

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Speaker 4: For decades and decades we've had florida in the water

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Speaker 4: to promote dental health, like it's been seen as something

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Speaker 4: that an essential kind of way to change dentile health,

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Speaker 4: to make children's teeth stronger. It's always been seen as

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Speaker 4: something that was a positive sign and a sign of

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Speaker 4: advanced development. RFK has now been making arguments again without evidence,

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Speaker 4: that florid in the water is causing arthritis, it is

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Speaker 4: causing bone cancer, is causing neurodevelopmental disorders. He has all

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Speaker 4: kinds of theories which again are unproven. Generally, florid in

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Speaker 4: the water has been seen as really a sort of

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Speaker 4: prophylactic way to get American kids to make sure their

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Speaker 4: teeth are strong, prevent tooth to k and the idea

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Speaker 4: that it has all these secondary effects is really it's

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Speaker 4: part of this whole unproven area of medicine where there

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Speaker 4: are plenty of theories. You can always find a doctor

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Speaker 4: an alternative medicine approach that will, you know, argue that

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Speaker 4: that's actually the problem, but there's no support for it whatsoever.

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Speaker 4: So he is going to have ignore his power through CDC.

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Speaker 4: Whether he's actually going to be able to, you know,

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Speaker 4: single handedly have florid removed from the public water is unlikely.

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Speaker 4: I think there's too many the state public health authorities,

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Speaker 4: and this is such an established part of US public

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Speaker 4: water supply policy that it's hard to imagine he's actually

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Speaker 4: gonna advance do anything here other than certainly erode public

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Speaker 4: support for something that's been uncontroversial.

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Speaker 1: He wrote on social media on January twenty, the Trump

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Speaker 1: White House will advise all US water systems to remove

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Speaker 1: fluoride from public water. But it's the states right who

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Speaker 1: have control over the fluoride in the water exactly.

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Speaker 4: It's public health authorities at the state level, So his

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Speaker 4: ability to remove fluoride from all these locally regulated water

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Speaker 4: systems is extremely limited. The only power that he really

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Speaker 4: has with the Center for Disease Control and the extent

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Speaker 4: that his policies are shared by any allies that the

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Speaker 4: PPA is to really change policy on this issue in

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Speaker 4: terms of setting standards, for example, for what our state

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Speaker 4: fluoride levels. But again, this is one of those areas

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Speaker 4: where you know, floride has been widely embraced by all

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Speaker 4: public health organizations as having enormous benefits in preventing to Hey,

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Speaker 4: if you go back to the pre florid era of

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Speaker 4: the kind of dental problems that people had, it becomes

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Speaker 4: very clear why this was like a really a transformative

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Speaker 4: in terms of improving dental health. So it's hard to

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Speaker 4: believe he may undermine public support for it. He could

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Speaker 4: try to, if he really was successful, he could sort

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Speaker 4: of try to change some federal standards on this, but

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Speaker 4: as a practical matter, most states and counties and other

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Speaker 4: local authorities are going to probably stand pat and we're

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Speaker 4: not going to see any change in the floride in

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Speaker 4: US water.

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Speaker 1: Coming up next on The Bloomberg Lawn Show, I'll continue

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Speaker 1: this conversation with healthcare attorney Harry Nelson. What about Robert

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Speaker 1: Kennedy's Make America Healthy Again movement? I'm June Grass. So

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Speaker 1: when you're listening to Bloomberg, President elect Donald Trump is

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Speaker 1: tapping Robert F. Kennedy Junior to run the Department of

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Speaker 1: Health and Human Services, a move that would elevate a

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Speaker 1: prominent vaccine skeptic and pharmaceutical industry critic to the top

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Speaker 1: roll on federal health policy. Kennedy has advanced a host

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Speaker 1: of unorthodox views on public health, most notably questioning the

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Speaker 1: safety and efficacy of vaccines during the COVID nineteen pandemic.

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Speaker 1: He called the shots a crime against humanity and compared

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Speaker 1: them to the Nazi Holocaust.

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Speaker 2: They're going to have the right to compel unwanted medical

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Speaker 2: interventions on us. We you know the Nazis did in

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Speaker 2: the camps.

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Speaker 1: I've been talking to healthcare attorney Harry Nelson. Harry Kennedy

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Speaker 1: has been making a lot of threats. He's also threatened

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Speaker 1: to throw out entire departments of the FDA.

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Speaker 4: Throwout so FDA is with healthyy reservices, so he will

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Speaker 4: have significant control and the ability to appoint leadership. There

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Speaker 4: there's a lot of really interesting questions. The one that

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Speaker 4: interests me the most is actually, you know, the issue

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Speaker 4: of for pristones. Ordinarily, we have seen that historically drug policy,

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Speaker 4: which drug is get approved has not been a politicized process.

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Speaker 4: But the exception has been the abortion drug myth of Priystone,

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Speaker 4: which is now being used in the vast majority of

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Speaker 4: abortions in the US and has been distributed since the

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Speaker 4: first Trump administration and early Biden administration, has been distributed

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Speaker 4: by telemedicine, creating a new level of privacy and access.

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Speaker 4: So there was an effort to try to block it,

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Speaker 4: and Supreme Court turned it away, was not interested in

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Speaker 4: interfering with the FDA. But now the question becomes canon

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Speaker 4: RFA led FDA actually begin an effort to restrict access.

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Speaker 4: So that's a really important question. And also to me,

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Speaker 4: the question is really interesting is the scent to which

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Speaker 4: rf case owned positions on abortions seems to be much

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Speaker 4: more open and permissive in contrast to some of the

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Speaker 4: other people around President Trump. So who's going to control

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Speaker 4: that process of appointments is super interesting, and I do

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Speaker 4: think we're going to see potentially a newly politicized process,

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Speaker 4: certainly on this drug and possibly on others. One thing

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Speaker 4: that's really really interesting is peptides and stem cells and

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Speaker 4: other kinds of therapies that are also under FDA that

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Speaker 4: are currently very restricted. We've seen, by the way, the

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Speaker 4: number one weight loss drug in America these days, ozembic

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Speaker 4: with Govi Munjaro, whateveryone to call it is the Eli,

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Speaker 4: Lilly and nov Noordous versions of pet sides, which are

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Speaker 4: strings of amino acid in the human body, and the

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Speaker 4: SEA has not allowed under its existing rules pepsides to

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Speaker 4: be distributed legally unless they go through very very expensive

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Speaker 4: drug approval, so RFK one of the more interesting parts

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Speaker 4: of his policy to me is his threat to open

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Speaker 4: up peptide, to open up greater stem cell therapies. These

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Speaker 4: are areas where there's a lot of controversy again about

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Speaker 4: how effective these things are. There seems to be a

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Speaker 4: significant amount of and up public demands for drugs, and

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Speaker 4: it's also a really interesting area to watch on federal policy.

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Speaker 4: It's one of those areas where there clearly are things

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Speaker 4: being distributed in the alternative medicine community, in longevity medicine,

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Speaker 4: for example, that are kind of not legal at the

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Speaker 4: moment that could become much more widely available. So a

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Speaker 4: really interesting area to watch.

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Speaker 1: What happens to the National Institutes of Health under RFK.

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Speaker 1: When he was running for president, he said he'd tell

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Speaker 1: the NIH to pause drug development and infectious research disease

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Speaker 1: for eight years and instead focus on chronic diseases. And

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Speaker 1: among the advances that were supported by money from NIH

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Speaker 1: are a medication for opioid addiction, a vaccine to prevent

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Speaker 1: cervical cancer, and many new cancer drugs. Kennedy has criticized

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Speaker 1: ANIH for not doing enough to study the role of

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Speaker 1: vaccines in autism.

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Speaker 4: So it's terrifying that he, you know, is talking about

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Speaker 4: potentially limiting ongoing funding of clinical research for drugs. We

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Speaker 4: are on the precipice of because of the funding of

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Speaker 4: the nationals due to health and supporting clinical trials making

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Speaker 4: funding available, We're on the precipice of all kinds of

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Speaker 4: really incredible in my practice, I hear, you know, just

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Speaker 4: little pieces of the puzzle, but new cancer drug for example,

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Speaker 4: that are in development and coming on the market. So

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Speaker 4: he has enormous power over the National of Health that

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Speaker 4: is the primary channel of how funding occurs for pharmaceutical research,

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Speaker 4: and you know, doctors around the country and around the

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Speaker 4: world are really you know, getting their research funded through

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Speaker 4: this agency, So his ability to stop that funding is

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Speaker 4: a little bit scary. It's nationalist due to health is

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Speaker 4: actually I think it's something like twenty five to thirty

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Speaker 4: different actual institution and centers working on different health issues.

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Speaker 4: And his ability to shift the priorities entirely from again

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Speaker 4: what has been a really until now a political process

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Speaker 4: of just really trying to support good science is scary.

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Speaker 4: It's hard to see where the funding would be picked

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Speaker 4: up if NIH funding was really cut in the way

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Speaker 4: that he is talking about.

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Speaker 1: You've said scary and terrifying a couple of times. What

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Speaker 1: do you think is the worst possible thing that can

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Speaker 1: happen if he takes office.

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Speaker 4: I do think that, you know, if RSK was actually

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Speaker 4: allowed to fully influence through his various appointments and his

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Speaker 4: budget advocacy, to really bring to a halt the fundamental

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Speaker 4: infrastructure that is powering scientific research on drug development, that's

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Speaker 4: certainly on the list. But for me, I think probably

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Speaker 4: the scariest thing is just getting to a place where

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Speaker 4: where public distrust of a floor out of the water

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Speaker 4: of vaccines, of these very established pillars of our health

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Speaker 4: system are actually genuinely open to question. I think we're

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Speaker 4: kind of living in this era when you know, the

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Speaker 4: things that we took as true are under attack, and

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Speaker 4: to me, RF case potential to really take that to

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Speaker 4: another level and to push his sort of crackpot ideas

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Speaker 4: into mainstream acceptance is probably the single worst thing that

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Speaker 4: I can think of.

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Speaker 1: Will he face any problems with Trump's whole deregulatory agenda.

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Speaker 4: I think that Kennedy's positions are all over the map,

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Speaker 4: and there are places where he is pushing for kind

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Speaker 4: of expansive permission. But fundamentally, I do think that his

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Speaker 4: focus on, you know, taking away some of the restrictions

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Speaker 4: that the pharmaceutical industry has placed through FBA and other

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Speaker 4: sources is in alignment with the Trump administration. I think

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Speaker 4: that part of the strategy that will you know, align

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Speaker 4: with the irregulation is taking away rules like the Food,

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Speaker 4: Drug and Cosmetic Act that have really limited the extent

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Speaker 4: to which you know, different products can be in the market.

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Speaker 4: So there is a place where Trump's uh focus on

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Speaker 4: deregulation and Kennedy's agenda, do a ligne, and I think

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Speaker 4: those are probably the places he's like to be most successful.

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Speaker 1: What about his make America Healthy Again goal? I mean,

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Speaker 1: is there anything good about what he's trying to do.

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Speaker 4: Look, I think there is a positive aspect, you know,

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Speaker 4: to his campaign for kind of addressing systemic issues in

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Speaker 4: terms of exercise and wellness. Again. You know, RFK has

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Speaker 4: positioned some of these things as if there was like

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Speaker 4: a conspiracy between the pharmaceutical industry and the government to

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Speaker 4: block people from general wellness. But I do think he

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Speaker 4: could be a positive voice in the biggest picture. You

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Speaker 4: know that the US health system is the one that

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Speaker 4: sends the most for the worst outcomes in advanced industrialized country.

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Speaker 4: We have one of the least healthy populations in the world,

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Speaker 4: and that, by the way, that goes across all income levels.

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Speaker 4: And so I think that RFK, if there's a positive

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Speaker 4: to his approach and this Make America Healthy campaigns, it

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Speaker 4: would be good to have someone in leadership who would

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Speaker 4: promote prementitive health, exercise, a diet, and there's more that

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Speaker 4: we could do in that area if we could actually

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Speaker 4: move the needles than anyplace else. So in that respect,

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Speaker 4: I do think urk has some positive aspects to his

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Speaker 4: broad messaging.

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Speaker 1: Last month, Kennedy threatened on social media to fire FDA

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Speaker 1: employees for quote aggressive suppression of a host of unsubstantiated

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Speaker 1: products and therapies, including stem cells, psychedelics, some of the

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Speaker 1: discredited covid era treatments you were talking about before, And

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Speaker 1: raw milk. I've been hearing a lot about raw milk.

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Speaker 1: What's up with that?

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Speaker 4: So the raw milk has become a really fascinating issue.

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Speaker 4: You know, our k has become the huge promoter of it.

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Speaker 4: But the real story on raw milk, there's a whole

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Speaker 4: community again generally that's historically been on the fringes that

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Speaker 4: believe that pasteurization of milk is sort of destroying health

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Speaker 4: benefits and that raw milk is healthy. And the FDA

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Speaker 4: has been completely intolerant of raw milk, even though there

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Speaker 4: has been a growing demand for it. By the way, historically,

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Speaker 4: in the era before we began pasteurizing milk, you know,

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Speaker 4: bacterian milk used to kill thousand children every year. But

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Speaker 4: what's fascinating is that this issue has really gotten traction,

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Speaker 4: and it seems that a piece of it relates to

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Speaker 4: the Amish community in the Dutch Country in Pennsylvania who

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Speaker 4: were angered in the early Biden administration by a lawsuit

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Speaker 4: that the FDA brought where they tried to shut down

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Speaker 4: a milk factory that was serving the Amish community and

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Speaker 4: men in Nite community with raw milk. And so the

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Speaker 4: anger was picked up on by some of the Trump

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Speaker 4: activists who went and registered this whole group that had

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Speaker 4: historically not voted that apparently came out over whel It's

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Speaker 4: not entirely to support the Trump campaign. I'm still waiting

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Speaker 4: to find the actual number of how many votes, but

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Speaker 4: I believe it was in the tens of thousands of

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Speaker 4: votes for Trump related to raw milk. So rfk, he's

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Speaker 4: always got that on his list of places where the

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Speaker 4: government needs to stand down, and it's very likely that

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Speaker 4: we are going to see FDA certainly enforcement. It's not

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Speaker 4: actual rules changed to make it easier to produce and

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Speaker 4: distribute raw milk, and it really was something. When we

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Speaker 4: see the actual vote count in Pennsylvania, it may be

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Speaker 4: that the Trump campaigns win there was directly tied to,

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Speaker 4: you know, fighting the government on raw milk. So I

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Speaker 4: expect that will be a sort of significant story to

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Speaker 4: come out of leadership. If RFK is confirmed he has.

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Speaker 1: No medical background whatsoever. Is that unusual? I mean, what

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Speaker 1: are the qualifications usually for a director of HHS.

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Speaker 4: You know, we have seen a lot of public health

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Speaker 4: as a sort of standard. There have been non posicians

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Speaker 4: who also were important public health leaders. It would be

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Speaker 4: a new thing to have someone who has absolutely no

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Speaker 4: professional background and no training whatsoever in either medicine or

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Speaker 4: public health in this role, and to have someone who's

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Speaker 4: fame in it is really for taking prominently positions as

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Speaker 4: a layperson. So, you know, I don't think this is

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Speaker 4: the only unusual Trump appointment, but certainly we have not

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Speaker 4: seen any PEUS appointment to Health and Human Services that

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Speaker 4: came so completely out of left field in terms of

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Speaker 4: no connection to medicine, no connection to public health.

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Speaker 1: And though Kennedy has promised to make America healthy again,

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Speaker 1: there's a picture of him that's circulating on Trump's plane

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Speaker 1: with a McDonald's Big Matt and a Coca Cola on

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Speaker 1: the table in front of him. He's seated next to

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Speaker 1: a group which includes Trump and Elon Musk. Thanks so much, Harry.

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Speaker 1: That's Harry Nelson of Leech Tishman Nelson Hardiman Coming up

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Speaker 1: Trump's pick for Manhattan US Attorney This is Bloomberg. Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump's plans for the Justice Department have been a lightning

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Speaker 1: rod for months, and his choice of brash lawmaker Matt

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Speaker 1: Gates as Attorney General has sparked a political firestorm, probably

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Speaker 1: the most controversial of his picks, But Trump's selection for

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Speaker 1: another top position in the Justice Department is not engendering

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Speaker 1: much controversy. He's tapping former regulator Jake Clayton to be

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Speaker 1: the U s Attorney for Manhattan. The US Attorney's Office

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Speaker 1: for the Southern District of New York is one of

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Speaker 1: the most high profile offices in the country and often

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Speaker 1: called the Sovereign District for its independent streak. The Manhattan

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Speaker 1: US Attorney is sometimes referred to as the Sheriff of

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Speaker 1: Wall Street because the office is famous for tackling complex

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Speaker 1: financial cases. Joining me is Bloomberg Legal reporter Ava Benny

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Speaker 1: Morrison Jay Clayton. He has no experience in criminal law.

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Speaker 3: Tell us about him that makes it. J Clayton an

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Speaker 3: unusual pick to lead the puberin District of New York

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Speaker 3: US Attorney's office. He was a former Regulator. He was

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Speaker 3: the chair of the SEC under the first transp administration,

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Speaker 3: and he's been a corporate lawyer for a very long time.

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Speaker 3: Most recently he's been at Sullivan and Cromwell and he

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Speaker 3: is also on the board of directors for Apollo. But yes,

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Speaker 3: a number of people have pointed out that he doesn't

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Speaker 3: have a history with the office. He's never been a

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Speaker 3: line prosecuted before, and usually veterans of SDNY uppicked to

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Speaker 3: lead that institution.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that is considered the premier US attorney's office

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Speaker 1: in the country. Being Manhattan US attorney is sort of

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Speaker 1: like the top of the pick. If you want to

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Speaker 1: be a US attorney, tell us about that office.

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00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:51,520
Speaker 3: Yes, exactly. So, the Southern District of New York is

439
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:55,560
Speaker 3: widely regarded as the most impactful, the most powerful law

440
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:59,199
Speaker 3: enforcement office outside of Washington, DC. The leaders of that

441
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:02,120
Speaker 3: office go on on to big law firms all over

442
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:05,679
Speaker 3: the country. They go onto even more senior roles within

443
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 3: the government to lead the SBI, etc. So it is

444
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:14,240
Speaker 3: quite a coveted role, and all eyes were on who

445
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:17,200
Speaker 3: Trump was going to nominate to fill that seat. After

446
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:20,400
Speaker 3: his election wins on November five, there was a little

447
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:23,639
Speaker 3: bit of anxiety about who would be in contention. I

448
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 3: think we have to consider some of the issues that

449
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:30,639
Speaker 3: arose in the first Trump administration. That first administration chewed

450
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:34,919
Speaker 3: through two US attorneys the Southern District. One, Pre Bahara,

451
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 3: was fired along with about fifty other US attorneys around

452
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:42,960
Speaker 3: the country when Trump's office. The second, Jeff Burman, he

453
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:46,760
Speaker 3: was forced to step down after some ongoing and long

454
00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 3: standing tensions with Trump's Justice Department officials in DC. Burman's

455
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 3: actually written a memoir about his time at the office

456
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:59,399
Speaker 3: and described being put under pressure and having to withstand

457
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 3: as from DC to interfere in some of those investigations.

458
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 3: So you can understand why current and former prosecutors in

459
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:10,119
Speaker 3: the SDY community were a bit anxious about who Trump

460
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:10,960
Speaker 3: was going to name.

461
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:15,040
Speaker 1: Clayton is he may not fit the pattern of former

462
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,919
Speaker 1: SDNY chiefs, but he's not someone who'd be considered a

463
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:23,560
Speaker 1: controversial pick. I imagine the prosecutors there wouldn't have any problem

464
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:25,160
Speaker 1: with him being the US attorney.

465
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 3: Exactly after Trump announced that he wanted j. Clayton to

466
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:33,560
Speaker 3: serve as SDNY US Attorney, I reached out to a

467
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:37,359
Speaker 3: few sources, and the resounding feedback was, We're relieved it

468
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 3: could have been worse. Yes, he's not an alarm of

469
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:42,600
Speaker 3: the office, which would have given us some comfort, but

470
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:45,720
Speaker 3: he is certainly the next best thing. He's well regarded

471
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:48,639
Speaker 3: by people at Sullivan and Cromwell, in the legal community,

472
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:51,960
Speaker 3: and by former colleagues at the SEC. It's spoken to

473
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 3: a number of people who describe him as a talented

474
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:57,879
Speaker 3: leader and a responsible regulator. So I think that, you know,

475
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 3: even though it's kind of bucking this convention in not

476
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 3: appointing someone who has been an STMY prosecutor before, there

477
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:07,440
Speaker 3: is a little bit of relief that Jay Clayton has

478
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,800
Speaker 3: been put forward for that role. And also people made

479
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 3: the point that, yes, he might not have their prosecution experience,

480
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 3: but he will more than likely surround himself in the

481
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 3: STI leadership team with people who are very experienced, who

482
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:23,560
Speaker 3: know that office inside out, who have been led prosecutors,

483
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:28,200
Speaker 3: and who know how their bread and butter work, national security,

484
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:31,440
Speaker 3: a public corruption, white collar crime, how it works.

485
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:35,160
Speaker 1: And ava Trump had picked him to be the US

486
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:37,800
Speaker 1: Attorney for the Southern District before tell us what happened.

487
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 3: Yes, during the first Trump administration, Jay Clayton was actually

488
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:47,960
Speaker 3: put forward as a contender for the Manhattan US Attorney position. Now,

489
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:51,080
Speaker 3: he didn't get very far because he found himself in

490
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:53,800
Speaker 3: the middle of a political standoff between the US Attorney

491
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:57,320
Speaker 3: at the time, Jeff Furman, and the Trump administration. Jeff

492
00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 3: Furman refused to stand so J. Clayton could be kind

493
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 3: of parachuted into the role, and eventually Berman did step down,

494
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 3: but only when he was assured that his deputy, Audrew Strauss,

495
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 3: could serve in that position. So Clayton certainly missed out

496
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 3: that time. But from what we've heard from people who

497
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,600
Speaker 3: know him, he has been keen to return to government

498
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 3: this time around. His name had been bandied around as

499
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 3: a contender for either the attorney general position in DC

500
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 3: or for Treasury Secretary. So it was a little bit

501
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 3: of a surprise last week when Trump announced that he

502
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:37,520
Speaker 3: was actually going to nominate j. Clayton to be SDNY

503
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 3: US Attorney.

504
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:41,960
Speaker 1: All the US attorneys resign when a new president comes in.

505
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 1: Any information about what the current Manhattan US Attorney, Damien Williams,

506
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 1: is going to do.

507
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 3: We don't know what Damien Williams is planning to do.

508
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,960
Speaker 3: You're right, it's inevitable that he will be asked to

509
00:29:56,040 --> 00:30:00,120
Speaker 3: leave or resign on his own terms, along with the

510
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 3: the US Attorneys appointers under the Biden administration. I think

511
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:06,959
Speaker 3: there's a lot of interest in what he plans to

512
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 3: do next. You know, he's overseen some huge cases while

513
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 3: he's been at SDMY, the prosecution of New York Mayor

514
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 3: Eric Adams, our KAGOS founder Bill Huang, not to mention

515
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 3: the multi billion dollar Ford at FTX. So yeah, it

516
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:24,959
Speaker 3: would certainly be very interesting to see what he chooses

517
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 3: to do next.

518
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,240
Speaker 1: And Trump has picked two of his personal lawyers for

519
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 1: important roles in the Justice Department.

520
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:36,560
Speaker 3: Outside of sd Andy. Trump has also wasted no time

521
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 3: in putting forward the names of people that he wants

522
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 3: to serve in other top Justice Department roles. Among them

523
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:47,280
Speaker 3: are his two personal criminal defense attorneys, Todd Blanche and

524
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:51,040
Speaker 3: Amil Both they represented him during his hush money trial

525
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:51,960
Speaker 3: in New York.

526
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 1: And Trump has also appointed the lawyer who argued the

527
00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:01,120
Speaker 1: presidential immunity case for him at the Supreme Court to

528
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 1: be the Solicitor General of the United States. So he's

529
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:07,800
Speaker 1: keeping his former defense lawyers employed is one way I

530
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 1: guess to look at it. And all these appointees will

531
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 1: have to work with Matt Gates if he's confirmed as

532
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:15,560
Speaker 1: Attorney General.

533
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:19,479
Speaker 3: Definitely, it felt like Matt Gates came out of left field.

534
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:23,480
Speaker 3: He certainly wasn't in the name of contenders that were

535
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:27,360
Speaker 3: being bandied around to the Attorney general position, and it

536
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:31,600
Speaker 3: created a bit of heightened anxiety among the semi community

537
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 3: about who would then be selected to lead this really

538
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 3: powerful and impactful law enforcement office. So one of the

539
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 3: challenges I think that Jay Clayton will face as Manhattan

540
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 3: ust Attorney is how he balances that relationship with main

541
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 3: Justice and with someone like Matt Gates, who will be

542
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:53,600
Speaker 3: in the most powerful position in the Justice Department. That

543
00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 3: all said, Matt gay tastic get confirmed at least in

544
00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 3: theory by the Senate, and you know, there are some

545
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 3: issues about his history. Mixingwell reported that he was investigate

546
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:09,360
Speaker 3: father Justice Department for sex trafficking, though charges were never laid.

547
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:13,840
Speaker 3: So it's certainly setting up to be quite a colorful

548
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 3: and explosive Senate confirmation hearing. If it goes down that route.

549
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:21,680
Speaker 1: The Senate confirmation hearings will probably be some for the books.

550
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 1: Thanks so much, Eva, That's Bloomberg Legal reporter Eva Benny Morrison,

551
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 1: and that's it for this edition of The Bloomberg Law Show.

552
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 1: Remember you can always get the latest legal news on

553
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 1: our Bloomberg Law Podcast. You can find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

554
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 1: and at www dot bloomberg dot com slash podcast Slash Law,

555
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 1: And remember to tune into The Bloomberg Law Show every

556
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 1: weeknight at ten pm Wall Street Time. I'm June Grasso,

557
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 1: and you're listening to Bloomberg