WEBVTT - A Tragedy in Texas: Mistakes Part 2 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:15.796 Bushkin. 0:00:20.076 --> 0:00:21.956 Many years ago, I was on the board of a 0:00:21.996 --> 0:00:25.196 think tank called the RAND Corporation out in Los Angeles. 0:00:25.876 --> 0:00:29.756 It was one of the coolest things I've ever done. 0:00:29.996 --> 0:00:32.596 RAND does all kinds of work on healthcare and energy 0:00:32.636 --> 0:00:35.276 in the environment, and most of all they consult with 0:00:35.356 --> 0:00:38.436 the Air Force, which meant from time to time various 0:00:38.476 --> 0:00:41.636 Air Force dignitaries would come and brief us. And they 0:00:41.636 --> 0:00:46.196 were two I've never forgotten. The first was a four star. 0:00:46.076 --> 0:00:47.476 General named David Goldfein. 0:00:48.156 --> 0:00:51.396 From twenty sixteen to twenty twenty, he was Chief of Staff, 0:00:51.836 --> 0:00:55.636 the highest military post in the Air Force. Here's a 0:00:55.716 --> 0:00:58.836 Dave goldfiend story that sums him up. I was once 0:00:58.916 --> 0:01:01.636 in an elevator with him at some conference and we 0:01:01.636 --> 0:01:04.556 were all locked in conversation with the conference host, and 0:01:04.596 --> 0:01:06.276 there was a man in the corner of the elevator 0:01:06.436 --> 0:01:09.716 who clearly worked for the hotel, older guy in a 0:01:09.756 --> 0:01:13.476 maintenance uniform who I'm ashamed to say we all treated 0:01:13.556 --> 0:01:18.236 like he was invisible, except for General Goldfin, who stopped 0:01:18.236 --> 0:01:22.956 the conversation, reached over, shook the man's hand. Hi, I'm 0:01:23.036 --> 0:01:27.356 Dave Goldfein. How is your day? In my experience, most 0:01:27.436 --> 0:01:30.636 powerful people do not notice the anonymous maintenance guy in 0:01:30.676 --> 0:01:35.196 the corner. Second memorable person who came to RAND when 0:01:35.196 --> 0:01:38.676 I was there the Secretary of the Air Force, Heather Wilson, 0:01:39.116 --> 0:01:42.116 the political appointee who runs the service along with the 0:01:42.196 --> 0:01:45.876 chief of Staff. I met Heather Wilson almost ten years 0:01:45.876 --> 0:01:48.236 ago now, and my friends will back me up on this. 0:01:48.676 --> 0:01:52.716 I have not stopped talking about her. In my perfect universe, 0:01:53.076 --> 0:01:56.396 Heather Wilson would run for president. I don't care which party, 0:01:56.516 --> 0:01:59.236 it doesn't matter. And if she did, not only would 0:01:59.276 --> 0:02:02.716 she win easily, but she would restore everything about that 0:02:02.836 --> 0:02:09.156 office that has been damaged over the past generation. And 0:02:09.236 --> 0:02:11.956 we decided to look at some consequential mistakes people have 0:02:12.036 --> 0:02:15.476 made for this mini series. I remembered something that happened 0:02:15.716 --> 0:02:18.316 back when Wilson and Goldfein were running the Air Force, 0:02:18.876 --> 0:02:23.116 a tragedy that unfolded in Texas, and a story about 0:02:23.156 --> 0:02:25.796 the mistake at the center of it, or more accurately, 0:02:26.196 --> 0:02:29.756 a story about how to respond to a mistake, and 0:02:29.796 --> 0:02:34.716 I wanted to share it with you. My name is 0:02:34.716 --> 0:02:38.556 Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to Revisionist History, my podcast about 0:02:38.556 --> 0:02:43.716 things overlooked and misunderstood. This is my conversation with doctor 0:02:43.756 --> 0:02:53.796 Heather Wilson and General Dave Goldfinfore. 0:02:50.076 --> 0:02:50.436 We go on. 0:02:51.276 --> 0:02:53.876 I remember you were in you were in the same 0:02:53.916 --> 0:02:55.396 Air Force Academy class. 0:02:55.916 --> 0:02:59.156 Yeah, we started at the Air Force Academy on the 0:02:59.236 --> 0:03:02.316 same day. I'm in the class of nineteen eighty two, 0:03:02.876 --> 0:03:05.196 and we didn't know each other really well as cadets 0:03:05.236 --> 0:03:10.076 in our careers, cross paths several times after graduating from 0:03:10.116 --> 0:03:12.916 the academy, but we came back together at the end 0:03:12.956 --> 0:03:17.716 of our our federal careers as Service Secretary and in chief. 0:03:17.796 --> 0:03:20.556 So in some ways our values were formed at the 0:03:20.596 --> 0:03:22.316 same institution at the same time. 0:03:22.436 --> 0:03:25.636 Yeah, now I will I will add that one of 0:03:25.716 --> 0:03:29.956 us graduated in four years, became a Rhodes scholar, congresswoman, 0:03:30.516 --> 0:03:34.276 started her own company, became university president and secretary, and 0:03:34.316 --> 0:03:35.396 one of us didn't. 0:03:36.956 --> 0:03:40.516 You were how datas did something useful? 0:03:40.596 --> 0:03:40.796 Dave? 0:03:41.716 --> 0:03:44.156 How far down in the graduating class were you, Dave? 0:03:44.196 --> 0:03:44.836 I've forgotten. 0:03:45.356 --> 0:03:47.276 Well, I will tell you that I was part of 0:03:47.316 --> 0:03:49.316 the group that made the top half possible. 0:03:51.676 --> 0:03:55.636 But you said something just then. I keep calling you, Dave. 0:03:55.636 --> 0:03:56.956 I should call you General Golfing. 0:03:57.156 --> 0:03:58.436 No, please call me Dave. 0:03:58.676 --> 0:04:02.276 Okay, So I just want to why do you guys 0:04:02.316 --> 0:04:04.076 just I don't know which one of you wants to start? 0:04:04.636 --> 0:04:07.636 Tell me how this all, When, when this began, how 0:04:07.676 --> 0:04:09.676 it began, how you found out about it, go from there. 0:04:09.996 --> 0:04:11.836 It was one of the worst days is still probably 0:04:11.876 --> 0:04:14.716 the worst day in my professional life. So it was 0:04:14.756 --> 0:04:18.596 a Sunday in November twenty seventeen. I was in the 0:04:18.676 --> 0:04:23.956 upstairs of my row house in Virginia. I got a 0:04:23.956 --> 0:04:28.956 call from the Inspector General and he said, I don't 0:04:28.996 --> 0:04:31.716 know if you're watching TV, but there's been something terrible 0:04:32.036 --> 0:04:34.036 that's happened in Sutherland Springs. 0:04:33.716 --> 0:04:34.836 Texas overnight. 0:04:34.916 --> 0:04:37.916 The quiet town of Sutherland Springs, Texas trying to come 0:04:37.956 --> 0:04:42.116 to grips with the nation's latest horrific mass shooting. More 0:04:42.156 --> 0:04:45.796 than two dozen people were killed during Sunday services at 0:04:45.796 --> 0:04:49.396 the small Baptist church, the victims ranging in age from 0:04:49.436 --> 0:04:53.116 five to seventy two years old. We also learned a 0:04:53.116 --> 0:04:56.196 short time ago that between twelve and fourteen of the 0:04:56.236 --> 0:04:58.436 dead are children. 0:04:59.156 --> 0:05:01.996 And I of course immediately went on and found out 0:05:01.996 --> 0:05:07.116 what was going on. Someone walked into a church in 0:05:07.196 --> 0:05:12.636 Sutherland Springs, Texas and open fire and killed when he 0:05:12.756 --> 0:05:15.396 was twenty six people. In the end, it was just awful. 0:05:16.156 --> 0:05:19.756 We are told now that the parents of the shooter's 0:05:19.836 --> 0:05:23.836 ex wife worshiped here. They were not at church yesterday. 0:05:24.716 --> 0:05:29.316 The Inspector General General Samsayid said, we're not sure, but 0:05:29.436 --> 0:05:32.876 we think he was an airman and even more than that, 0:05:34.996 --> 0:05:39.636 he may have been dishonorably discharged for a violent offense 0:05:39.756 --> 0:05:43.916 while on active duty. And we might have failed to 0:05:43.956 --> 0:05:47.796 inform the FBI, which would have if there was a 0:05:47.836 --> 0:05:50.036 way to put somebody on a list so they can't 0:05:50.036 --> 0:05:50.756 buy a weapon. 0:05:52.756 --> 0:05:54.156 And so Dave. 0:05:53.996 --> 0:05:56.716 And I talked that Sunday afternoon. We agreed we would 0:05:56.756 --> 0:05:59.396 meet at nine o'clock in the morning in our conference 0:05:59.476 --> 0:06:03.716 room and find out the facts and then and take 0:06:03.756 --> 0:06:07.396 it from there. But it was awful. It was just awful. 0:06:08.396 --> 0:06:13.276 Yeah. So you know, as it all came together, most 0:06:13.276 --> 0:06:15.236 important thing for us was to sort of get as 0:06:15.236 --> 0:06:17.996 many facts as we could that we when we gathered 0:06:17.996 --> 0:06:21.996 the people on Monday, to get everybody together. 0:06:22.716 --> 0:06:25.316 And it was so when we got together at nine 0:06:25.316 --> 0:06:29.596 o'clock in the morning, the Inspector General General say confirmed 0:06:29.596 --> 0:06:32.996 that yes he was an airman, Yes he had been 0:06:33.076 --> 0:06:36.916 convicted of a violent offense while on active duty, and 0:06:36.956 --> 0:06:39.876 that the service had failed to inform the FBI and 0:06:39.876 --> 0:06:42.316 put him on the list so he couldn't buy a weapon. 0:06:44.636 --> 0:06:46.516 And then you think it you know, you think at 0:06:46.556 --> 0:06:50.876 that point it can't get worse, but it did because 0:06:51.596 --> 0:06:54.916 the next thing we found out in that meeting was 0:06:54.956 --> 0:06:58.556 that the Defense Department Inspector General had done a review 0:06:59.156 --> 0:07:04.196 three years earlier of whether all of the services were 0:07:04.236 --> 0:07:08.756 appropriately notifying the FBI and putting people on them you know, 0:07:08.836 --> 0:07:13.836 can't by a weapon list, and said there were problems. 0:07:14.196 --> 0:07:18.596 So we had been told that the system didn't work. 0:07:19.156 --> 0:07:22.356 There was an audit finding, and we didn't fix it. 0:07:23.516 --> 0:07:25.916 So it was not a good day. 0:07:27.196 --> 0:07:30.596 So you have we have a case of somebody who 0:07:31.236 --> 0:07:35.956 is dishonorably discharged for a violent offense, and what's the 0:07:36.116 --> 0:07:40.076 internal mechanism in which the way that case is dealt 0:07:40.116 --> 0:07:41.276 with within the Air Force. 0:07:41.356 --> 0:07:49.156 When systems screw up, when when things fail, it's usually 0:07:49.196 --> 0:07:52.196 not because of somebody intended to make a mistake. Is 0:07:52.316 --> 0:07:56.356 because you know, the person who did that job moved on, 0:07:56.676 --> 0:08:00.436 or nobody wrote down the procedures, or people weren't adequately trained, 0:08:00.876 --> 0:08:02.996 and the way it was supposed to work in the 0:08:03.076 --> 0:08:07.156 service is that a felony offenses. Unlike minor offenses, felony 0:08:07.196 --> 0:08:10.276 offenses are handled by the Office of Special Investigations and 0:08:10.316 --> 0:08:14.756 a military prosecutor. Once there is a conviction, it should 0:08:14.876 --> 0:08:18.436 have been reported on a system by that Office of 0:08:18.476 --> 0:08:22.676 Special Investigations to the FBI and then it is closed 0:08:22.716 --> 0:08:26.516 out and you know, put on file. That didn't happen. 0:08:27.276 --> 0:08:30.916 And so it was a combination of systems and processes 0:08:30.996 --> 0:08:36.756 and training and uh, and it wasn't done right. And 0:08:37.036 --> 0:08:40.596 we were told that in advance when the d D 0:08:40.756 --> 0:08:43.916 Inspector General did an audit of all of the all 0:08:43.956 --> 0:08:46.196 of the services, and in fact that the Air Force 0:08:46.196 --> 0:08:48.436 had been doing it, doing better on it than the 0:08:48.436 --> 0:08:52.356 other services. But that didn't matter. We still knew we 0:08:52.436 --> 0:08:54.756 had a problem and we'd fail to fix it. 0:08:59.676 --> 0:09:02.516 We'll be right back with more of my conversation with 0:09:02.636 --> 0:09:19.956 General Goldfein and doctor Wilson. After you get that call, 0:09:20.596 --> 0:09:24.156 doctor Wilson, who do you call? Who's your first call? 0:09:24.316 --> 0:09:24.796 Is it Dave? 0:09:25.916 --> 0:09:28.596 My first call usually was to Dave. Now we also 0:09:28.756 --> 0:09:30.836 talked to the General Counsel and so forth. It was 0:09:30.876 --> 0:09:33.076 actually out of town, as I remember on that day, 0:09:33.516 --> 0:09:35.996 but one of the things, and this is one of 0:09:35.996 --> 0:09:39.196 the things about our relationship is service secretary in chief. 0:09:39.556 --> 0:09:43.636 The chief has an obligation to give his best military 0:09:43.636 --> 0:09:48.756 advice to the civilians appointed to run the department. As 0:09:48.796 --> 0:09:50.996 a secretary, there's nothing that says that you have an 0:09:50.996 --> 0:09:53.956 obligation to ask for it. But I generally did a 0:09:54.036 --> 0:09:57.596 much better job when I asked for it, because Dave 0:09:57.636 --> 0:09:59.836 Goldfeen may be a much better secretary. 0:10:00.596 --> 0:10:04.676 You said you guys were shaped by the same values, 0:10:04.756 --> 0:10:07.076 and this is a really important part, and I want 0:10:07.076 --> 0:10:08.556 you to talk a little bit before we go on. 0:10:08.596 --> 0:10:10.116 I want you to talk about it. What do you 0:10:10.236 --> 0:10:10.876 mean by that? 0:10:11.396 --> 0:10:14.996 So each service has a set of core values that 0:10:15.076 --> 0:10:19.396 are infused into every member of the institution, normally during 0:10:19.436 --> 0:10:23.876 basic training and then reinforced throughout their time in service. 0:10:24.596 --> 0:10:26.636 And so you could go to each service and find 0:10:26.676 --> 0:10:29.796 those core values. For us, it's integrity, service, and excellence. 0:10:30.516 --> 0:10:34.596 And so you know, integrity first is how we're taught 0:10:34.636 --> 0:10:38.676 to approach all things. So you know, in terms of 0:10:38.756 --> 0:10:42.436 how we approach this, it started off with ownership because 0:10:42.716 --> 0:10:45.796 we needed to ensure that we were true to the 0:10:45.876 --> 0:10:49.236 values of the institution and that we were representing the 0:10:49.236 --> 0:10:54.836 institution correctly as its leaders, and so integrity first, service 0:10:54.916 --> 0:10:58.316 before self, meaning that we you know, we look at 0:10:59.036 --> 0:11:03.036 this opportunity to lead as a gift that's offered by 0:11:03.036 --> 0:11:05.956 those who were privileged to serve, and each day we 0:11:05.996 --> 0:11:08.556 asked the question, are we worthy of that trust and 0:11:08.596 --> 0:11:11.636 competence not only of the airman that we were privileged 0:11:11.676 --> 0:11:14.236 to lead, but also the American people that entrusted us 0:11:14.236 --> 0:11:19.796 with their sons and daughters. And so those core values drive, 0:11:20.276 --> 0:11:23.276 you know, how we choose to handle things throughout our careers. 0:11:24.076 --> 0:11:28.116 I would say on the integrity first part. Once on 0:11:28.196 --> 0:11:31.996 that Monday morning, we knew the truth. We knew that 0:11:32.076 --> 0:11:34.596 he had been an airman, We knew that he had 0:11:34.596 --> 0:11:37.836 been convicted of a violent crime, and we knew that 0:11:37.916 --> 0:11:40.716 we should have reported at to the FBI, and we didn't. 0:11:41.036 --> 0:11:44.276 Those were facts we knew by Monday morning. And as 0:11:44.316 --> 0:11:46.276 I said, our general counsel was out of town, but 0:11:46.316 --> 0:11:48.796 there was a more junior lawyer around the table there 0:11:49.116 --> 0:11:52.196 and everybody was just man was just a somber meeting. 0:11:52.756 --> 0:11:54.676 But the lawyer when we kind of went around the 0:11:54.676 --> 0:11:56.116 table and said, all right, what do you think we 0:11:56.116 --> 0:12:00.036 should do next? On this one? It was very often 0:12:00.076 --> 0:12:02.476 that Dave and I came from things from a slightly 0:12:02.476 --> 0:12:06.316 different perspectives. You know, we we'd see different things, and 0:12:06.636 --> 0:12:10.036 I think we made better decisions because ste sharpened steel. 0:12:10.156 --> 0:12:13.636 We'd engage a lot with each other, but in this one, 0:12:13.676 --> 0:12:16.036 there was no daylight between us. From the very beginning, 0:12:16.436 --> 0:12:18.956 we knew the truth and we thought we needed to 0:12:19.076 --> 0:12:22.956 just say it, and so we made a decision at 0:12:22.996 --> 0:12:26.916 that meeting that we would release a statement by late 0:12:26.956 --> 0:12:29.916 that morning. We gave them a deadline of eleven. I 0:12:29.996 --> 0:12:31.836 think it took us till one. It always takes a 0:12:31.876 --> 0:12:35.836 little longer, but to say, to say what we knew, 0:12:36.036 --> 0:12:39.356 and we also thought that that would allow our institution 0:12:40.196 --> 0:12:45.196 to focus on fixing the problem rather than denying it 0:12:45.436 --> 0:12:50.116 or delaying things, or trying to duck accountability. And David 0:12:50.156 --> 0:12:53.196 and I also did a press conference or press availability 0:12:53.276 --> 0:12:57.156 with the Pentagon media the following morning, which was you know, 0:12:57.236 --> 0:13:01.996 that wasn't fun. But some ways, when we just said 0:13:02.036 --> 0:13:03.836 these are the facts as we know them, and this 0:13:03.916 --> 0:13:05.996 is what we're doing to fix the problem, what could 0:13:05.996 --> 0:13:08.396 they ask? You know, we weren't going to deny things. 0:13:08.436 --> 0:13:13.076 It was really unpleasant, but it was the truth, and 0:13:13.116 --> 0:13:16.196 I think Dave and I were both committed to just 0:13:16.236 --> 0:13:22.796 telling the truth. Well, good afternoon, Paps open up with 0:13:22.876 --> 0:13:27.876 a couple of remarks. The offenses for which the shooter 0:13:27.956 --> 0:13:32.316 in Texas was court martialed should have been reported, and 0:13:32.516 --> 0:13:34.956 that's why we launched a full scale review of this 0:13:35.276 --> 0:13:39.676 case and all others like it. Since Sunday night, the 0:13:39.716 --> 0:13:42.636 Air Force Inspector General has talked to about one hundred 0:13:42.676 --> 0:13:47.116 people involved in this case. We are looking at all 0:13:47.116 --> 0:13:51.156 of our databases and if we have problems that we find, 0:13:51.396 --> 0:13:52.876 we'll fix them. 0:13:53.196 --> 0:13:55.636 David, you can you can you give us your memory 0:13:55.636 --> 0:13:56.596 of that press conference? 0:13:58.116 --> 0:14:03.036 Yeah, so, you know, it's uh. I think we both 0:14:03.116 --> 0:14:07.916 expected to get, you know, really tough questions and we 0:14:07.916 --> 0:14:12.436 were prepared, you know, to own up. But it was, 0:14:12.516 --> 0:14:17.596 like Heather said, right once we opened up with hey, 0:14:17.596 --> 0:14:21.516 we own this. You know, we we the United States 0:14:21.556 --> 0:14:25.596 Air Force goofed this up, and we as the leaders, 0:14:25.676 --> 0:14:28.836 represent the institution that guped this up. And so we 0:14:28.956 --> 0:14:32.196 take ownership and our focus is now on ensure that 0:14:32.196 --> 0:14:34.716 we understand all the facts and we are going to 0:14:34.756 --> 0:14:37.396 fix this to ensure that it can never happen again. 0:14:38.516 --> 0:14:41.636 Once we started off with that statement, you really could 0:14:41.636 --> 0:14:43.356 have sort of felt the air go out of the room. 0:14:43.516 --> 0:14:47.116 And then the questions at that point were just more 0:14:47.156 --> 0:14:51.716 about detail, and I don't remember getting any really pointed, 0:14:52.196 --> 0:14:56.956 you know, attacks or questions. It was more okay, well 0:14:56.956 --> 0:14:58.596 tell us what you know about this, and how are 0:14:58.636 --> 0:15:01.396 you going to handle that? And so I think that, 0:15:02.436 --> 0:15:05.636 you know, my recollection of it was it accomplished what 0:15:05.676 --> 0:15:08.676 we were hoping it would accomplish, which was taking ownership. 0:15:09.796 --> 0:15:12.156 One of the things that somebody around that table on 0:15:12.236 --> 0:15:14.436 Monday morning said was, well, you know, you and the 0:15:14.516 --> 0:15:16.876 Chief weren't the leaders of the Air Force at the 0:15:16.916 --> 0:15:21.516 time this prosecution happened and they failed to report. And 0:15:21.596 --> 0:15:24.636 both Dave and I had the same reaction was that 0:15:24.756 --> 0:15:29.476 doesn't matter. We represent the institution. And Dave couldn't take 0:15:29.516 --> 0:15:33.156 the four stars off of his shoulders anymore than I 0:15:33.156 --> 0:15:37.156 could take the Airmen symbol off of my lapel. When 0:15:37.236 --> 0:15:40.836 you are the leader, you own the institution and you 0:15:41.036 --> 0:15:45.396 represent the institution, and you have to take ownership for 0:15:45.676 --> 0:15:50.676 the institution and lead it forward. And so the fact 0:15:50.716 --> 0:15:53.916 that it didn't happen on our watch, that's no excuse. 0:15:55.956 --> 0:15:58.356 We're not going to make an excuse. We're not going 0:15:58.436 --> 0:16:02.436 to say it was somebody else's problem. 0:16:02.516 --> 0:16:19.396 We'll be right back. What happens next. 0:16:19.596 --> 0:16:23.676 You have this press conference, You've you've told the world 0:16:23.836 --> 0:16:26.116 we're looking into We're going to go over every single case, 0:16:26.556 --> 0:16:28.836 make sure we've done the right thing, but we still 0:16:28.876 --> 0:16:30.796 have the aftermath. 0:16:31.476 --> 0:16:34.996 In Texas, this was a this was a bedroom community 0:16:35.036 --> 0:16:38.116 for Randolph Air Force Base, and then some of the 0:16:38.236 --> 0:16:42.916 victims were the family of an airman who was deployed overseas, 0:16:43.196 --> 0:16:46.756 and Dave took the lead on that part, and I'll 0:16:46.836 --> 0:16:47.836 let him tell that part. 0:16:49.276 --> 0:16:52.956 So we reached out to the community and because there 0:16:53.036 --> 0:16:57.836 was a series of funerals they were holding, and reached 0:16:57.836 --> 0:17:00.996 out to the mayor of San Antonio, Ron Nuremberg at 0:17:01.036 --> 0:17:05.596 the time, and asked if it would be appropriate and 0:17:05.636 --> 0:17:09.236 it would be acceptable for me to travel to the 0:17:09.276 --> 0:17:13.716 San Antonio and attend the funeral in uniform representing the service, 0:17:14.196 --> 0:17:18.916 knowing that we were, you know, we were responsible for 0:17:18.996 --> 0:17:21.996 everything we've been talking about. Because I wanted to make 0:17:22.036 --> 0:17:26.196 sure that we weren't contributing to any increased pain by 0:17:26.316 --> 0:17:29.196 me being there, and I offered to also come into 0:17:29.316 --> 0:17:31.556 the entire if that's what they preferred, and they said, no, 0:17:31.596 --> 0:17:37.196 we'd appreciate if you would be here in uniform. So 0:17:37.876 --> 0:17:39.956 I met with the mayor first and we talked about, 0:17:40.036 --> 0:17:42.196 all right, how do we ensure that this is not 0:17:42.436 --> 0:17:45.076 just you know, once and done, that we have a 0:17:45.116 --> 0:17:48.916 long term commitment to this community. As the community works 0:17:48.916 --> 0:17:52.436 to recover from this tragedy, how do we ensure the 0:17:52.436 --> 0:17:55.236 Air Force is continually plugged in for the long term. 0:17:55.356 --> 0:17:57.716 So that was what the agenda working out with the mayor. 0:17:59.276 --> 0:18:03.476 Tell me more about going to that funeral, you're how 0:18:03.476 --> 0:18:05.316 did you feel on the flight down? 0:18:06.316 --> 0:18:09.796 Well, it was I knew that we had airman that 0:18:09.956 --> 0:18:14.036 was deployed and several members of his family. This is 0:18:14.076 --> 0:18:18.756 a young airman. Several men member of his families were 0:18:18.836 --> 0:18:22.836 killed and we were going to be several, yes, members 0:18:22.876 --> 0:18:26.876 of his extended family because a member again. Sutherland Springs 0:18:26.916 --> 0:18:29.796 is a bedroom community for Randolph Air Force Base, which 0:18:29.836 --> 0:18:33.356 is one of our largest Air Force training bases. So 0:18:33.476 --> 0:18:36.076 the number of people that come through Randolph, that's probably 0:18:36.116 --> 0:18:39.716 one of the most traveled bases. So when you talk 0:18:39.756 --> 0:18:44.236 to airman right and ask them of their common experiences, 0:18:44.756 --> 0:18:46.956 many of them will share a period of time when 0:18:46.956 --> 0:18:49.356 they went through Randolph Air Force Base or Lackland Air 0:18:49.356 --> 0:18:52.756 Force Base in San Antonio. So San Antonio is known 0:18:52.756 --> 0:18:58.076 as Military City, USA. Is one of the the monikers 0:18:58.116 --> 0:19:02.036 that it's used because there's so much military. You can't 0:19:02.036 --> 0:19:04.436 go to the airport in San Antonio without seeing a 0:19:04.556 --> 0:19:07.276 large number of young airmen who are who are arriving 0:19:07.316 --> 0:19:11.356 for basic training or leaving, and so you know, on 0:19:11.396 --> 0:19:15.996 the way down, I'm traveling in uniform to Military City, USA, 0:19:17.956 --> 0:19:21.116 and I'm going to meet with this airman. And having 0:19:21.236 --> 0:19:26.556 had the unfortunate opportunity to meet with a lot of 0:19:27.436 --> 0:19:30.716 airman and families over the course of my career, especially 0:19:30.756 --> 0:19:32.916 in the two years I was the Air Component Commander 0:19:32.956 --> 0:19:36.356 for Central Command where we lost a number of soldier, sailors, 0:19:36.396 --> 0:19:40.356 airman Marines while I was there. I'd had experience with 0:19:40.396 --> 0:19:46.516 handling the tragedy of death and talking with the families, 0:19:47.036 --> 0:19:49.356 and so I had a good sense of what I 0:19:49.476 --> 0:19:53.436 was stepping into. I'll never forget, you know, going to 0:19:53.476 --> 0:19:58.316 the funeral and I met with the pastor of the church, 0:19:58.436 --> 0:20:03.236 Frank Pomeroy, and it continually remains perhaps one of the 0:20:03.236 --> 0:20:08.876 most profound spiritual moments that I had as chief. When 0:20:09.876 --> 0:20:13.876 you know, Pastor Pomeroy stood up and started off by 0:20:13.916 --> 0:20:16.756 asking us if we would pray for the shooter and 0:20:16.836 --> 0:20:21.836 his family, and he did so while his fourteen year 0:20:21.876 --> 0:20:25.276 old daughter was in a casket because she they had 0:20:25.316 --> 0:20:29.756 lost her in the shooting. I don't know if there's 0:20:30.836 --> 0:20:35.036 a better example of spiritual courage, right we forgive those 0:20:35.076 --> 0:20:37.716 who trespass against us. I don't know that we're going 0:20:37.796 --> 0:20:41.476 to find a better example of that. And so being 0:20:41.516 --> 0:20:45.596 there for that airman, being there for those families was, 0:20:46.876 --> 0:20:53.716 you know, both profound and also I think every time 0:20:53.916 --> 0:20:58.156 there's a setback or a failure in an institution, it's 0:20:58.196 --> 0:21:01.036 an opportunity for the leaders to teach the next generation 0:21:01.436 --> 0:21:04.956 how to handle failure because we all get knocked down. 0:21:05.596 --> 0:21:10.316 All institutions have failures. The question is not whether you're 0:21:10.356 --> 0:21:12.396 going to fail. The question is how do you handle 0:21:12.396 --> 0:21:16.036 it when you do fail? Do you take ownership? Do 0:21:16.116 --> 0:21:18.916 you step up? Do you get back up? And do 0:21:18.956 --> 0:21:22.236 you teach the next generation of leaders how to handle 0:21:22.276 --> 0:21:25.996 failures so that they can be more prepared when it 0:21:26.116 --> 0:21:28.476 comes to them, because it's going to come to them. 0:21:30.556 --> 0:21:34.116 My concern on this particular one was would there be 0:21:34.156 --> 0:21:39.996 a hostile reaction by the community to my being there, 0:21:40.196 --> 0:21:42.996 because it's a hostile reaction not to me, but a 0:21:43.036 --> 0:21:46.436 hostile reaction to Ni States Air Force. And there was 0:21:46.436 --> 0:21:51.276 none of that. It was a welcoming opening. Sutherland Springs 0:21:51.356 --> 0:21:54.036 is an incredible community. And again I go back to 0:21:54.956 --> 0:21:58.276 Pastor of Frank Pomeroy, who is just an incredible and 0:21:58.356 --> 0:22:02.836 incredible spiritual leader. I think he set the tone for 0:22:03.036 --> 0:22:05.676 all of us when he asked us to pray for 0:22:05.876 --> 0:22:06.596 the shooter. 0:22:07.596 --> 0:22:11.356 And there was there wasn't a hostile reaction because you 0:22:11.476 --> 0:22:11.996 showed up. 0:22:14.036 --> 0:22:17.676 I don't know how much of it was, because I 0:22:17.716 --> 0:22:20.116 think it was more we were all there for the 0:22:20.156 --> 0:22:25.956 same purpose, right. I was not there to do anything 0:22:25.996 --> 0:22:28.396 other than I mean, I didn't sit in I didn't 0:22:28.396 --> 0:22:31.196 sit in the front road. They tried to, you know, 0:22:31.396 --> 0:22:32.836 move me up to the front row, and I said, no, 0:22:32.956 --> 0:22:36.956 I'm I'm part of this community today, and so I 0:22:37.036 --> 0:22:39.916 want to sit with the community, and I'd like to 0:22:39.956 --> 0:22:42.436 sit in an area that is, you know, with the 0:22:42.476 --> 0:22:47.596 families that are represented here. And and so this was 0:22:47.676 --> 0:22:52.036 not a you know, we made a point. I made 0:22:52.036 --> 0:22:55.316 a point of my team. I said, uh, do not 0:22:55.916 --> 0:22:58.916 please make this a big protocol event for the Chief 0:22:58.916 --> 0:23:03.676 of Staff of the Air Force. This is Dave Goldfing 0:23:04.356 --> 0:23:08.996 coming here to show my respect, my love for these families, 0:23:09.436 --> 0:23:11.796 and to represent the institution that let them down. 0:23:13.316 --> 0:23:14.436 M hm hm. 0:23:15.396 --> 0:23:16.996 So I don't think I could have done that. First 0:23:16.996 --> 0:23:19.276 of all, I think Dave was Now there's a when 0:23:19.316 --> 0:23:22.036 people think about the American Air Force, they don't think 0:23:22.076 --> 0:23:25.876 about somebody in civilian clothes the secretary. They think about 0:23:27.196 --> 0:23:29.756 our uniform military And so I think Dave was the 0:23:29.836 --> 0:23:32.436 right one to represent us there, and he and I 0:23:32.516 --> 0:23:35.836 talk about this. I also think I'm not sure I 0:23:35.876 --> 0:23:38.796 could have done what he did. I mean, it was 0:23:38.836 --> 0:23:42.876 it was just pretty amazing as. 0:23:42.716 --> 0:23:45.676 A leader to do that. 0:23:45.916 --> 0:23:48.316 But I don't mean with the humility that he did it, 0:23:48.356 --> 0:23:52.156 because he's that way. But just the whole thing's just 0:23:52.316 --> 0:23:53.796 so incredibly heartbreaking. 0:23:55.476 --> 0:24:00.716 M One last question. It's such an extraordinary story. 0:24:01.796 --> 0:24:06.116 Can you reflect on what this ought to teach us, 0:24:07.036 --> 0:24:08.956 what this taught you, and what this ought to teach 0:24:08.996 --> 0:24:11.036 us about what a leader is. 0:24:12.476 --> 0:24:16.036 You know, there's a variety of lessons I think woven 0:24:16.076 --> 0:24:18.076 into this. I actually had to go up to Capitol 0:24:18.116 --> 0:24:22.316 Hill and testify in front of the Senate several months 0:24:22.356 --> 0:24:28.476 after this happened, and anybody who testifies in front of 0:24:28.156 --> 0:24:30.876 the Senate needs to be prepared, to be grilled, to 0:24:30.876 --> 0:24:35.316 get really hard questions. And I've had harder questions on 0:24:35.396 --> 0:24:41.236 more benign topics than I did on that day. And 0:24:41.316 --> 0:24:43.756 I think part of it was because I did in 0:24:43.796 --> 0:24:46.636 my opening statement pretty much what Dave and I had 0:24:46.676 --> 0:24:50.596