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Speaker 1: Bushkin.

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Speaker 2: Many years ago, I was on the board of a

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Speaker 2: think tank called the RAND Corporation out in Los Angeles.

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Speaker 2: It was one of the coolest things I've ever done.

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Speaker 2: RAND does all kinds of work on healthcare and energy

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Speaker 2: in the environment, and most of all they consult with

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Speaker 2: the Air Force, which meant from time to time various

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Speaker 2: Air Force dignitaries would come and brief us. And they

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Speaker 2: were two I've never forgotten. The first was a four star.

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Speaker 1: General named David Goldfein.

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Speaker 2: From twenty sixteen to twenty twenty, he was Chief of Staff,

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Speaker 2: the highest military post in the Air Force. Here's a

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Speaker 2: Dave goldfiend story that sums him up. I was once

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Speaker 2: in an elevator with him at some conference and we

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Speaker 2: were all locked in conversation with the conference host, and

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Speaker 2: there was a man in the corner of the elevator

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Speaker 2: who clearly worked for the hotel, older guy in a

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Speaker 2: maintenance uniform who I'm ashamed to say we all treated

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Speaker 2: like he was invisible, except for General Goldfin, who stopped

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Speaker 2: the conversation, reached over, shook the man's hand. Hi, I'm

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Speaker 2: Dave Goldfein. How is your day? In my experience, most

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Speaker 2: powerful people do not notice the anonymous maintenance guy in

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Speaker 2: the corner. Second memorable person who came to RAND when

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Speaker 2: I was there the Secretary of the Air Force, Heather Wilson,

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Speaker 2: the political appointee who runs the service along with the

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Speaker 2: chief of Staff. I met Heather Wilson almost ten years

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Speaker 2: ago now, and my friends will back me up on this.

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Speaker 2: I have not stopped talking about her. In my perfect universe,

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Speaker 2: Heather Wilson would run for president. I don't care which party,

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Speaker 2: it doesn't matter. And if she did, not only would

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Speaker 2: she win easily, but she would restore everything about that

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Speaker 2: office that has been damaged over the past generation. And

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Speaker 2: we decided to look at some consequential mistakes people have

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Speaker 2: made for this mini series. I remembered something that happened

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Speaker 2: back when Wilson and Goldfein were running the Air Force,

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Speaker 2: a tragedy that unfolded in Texas, and a story about

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Speaker 2: the mistake at the center of it, or more accurately,

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Speaker 2: a story about how to respond to a mistake, and

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Speaker 2: I wanted to share it with you. My name is

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Speaker 2: Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to Revisionist History, my podcast about

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Speaker 2: things overlooked and misunderstood. This is my conversation with doctor

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Speaker 2: Heather Wilson and General Dave Goldfinfore.

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Speaker 1: We go on.

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Speaker 2: I remember you were in you were in the same

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Speaker 2: Air Force Academy class.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we started at the Air Force Academy on the

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Speaker 3: same day. I'm in the class of nineteen eighty two,

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Speaker 3: and we didn't know each other really well as cadets

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Speaker 3: in our careers, cross paths several times after graduating from

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Speaker 3: the academy, but we came back together at the end

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Speaker 3: of our our federal careers as Service Secretary and in chief.

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Speaker 3: So in some ways our values were formed at the

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Speaker 3: same institution at the same time.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, now I will I will add that one of

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Speaker 4: us graduated in four years, became a Rhodes scholar, congresswoman,

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Speaker 4: started her own company, became university president and secretary, and

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Speaker 4: one of us didn't.

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Speaker 1: You were how datas did something useful?

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Speaker 4: Dave?

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Speaker 2: How far down in the graduating class were you, Dave?

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Speaker 2: I've forgotten.

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Speaker 4: Well, I will tell you that I was part of

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Speaker 4: the group that made the top half possible.

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Speaker 2: But you said something just then. I keep calling you, Dave.

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Speaker 2: I should call you General Golfing.

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Speaker 4: No, please call me Dave.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So I just want to why do you guys

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Speaker 2: just I don't know which one of you wants to start?

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Speaker 2: Tell me how this all, When, when this began, how

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Speaker 2: it began, how you found out about it, go from there.

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Speaker 3: It was one of the worst days is still probably

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Speaker 3: the worst day in my professional life. So it was

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Speaker 3: a Sunday in November twenty seventeen. I was in the

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Speaker 3: upstairs of my row house in Virginia. I got a

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Speaker 3: call from the Inspector General and he said, I don't

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Speaker 3: know if you're watching TV, but there's been something terrible

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Speaker 3: that's happened in Sutherland Springs.

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Speaker 1: Texas overnight.

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Speaker 5: The quiet town of Sutherland Springs, Texas trying to come

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Speaker 5: to grips with the nation's latest horrific mass shooting. More

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Speaker 5: than two dozen people were killed during Sunday services at

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Speaker 5: the small Baptist church, the victims ranging in age from

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Speaker 5: five to seventy two years old. We also learned a

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Speaker 5: short time ago that between twelve and fourteen of the

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Speaker 5: dead are children.

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Speaker 3: And I of course immediately went on and found out

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Speaker 3: what was going on. Someone walked into a church in

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Speaker 3: Sutherland Springs, Texas and open fire and killed when he

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Speaker 3: was twenty six people. In the end, it was just awful.

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Speaker 5: We are told now that the parents of the shooter's

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Speaker 5: ex wife worshiped here. They were not at church yesterday.

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Speaker 3: The Inspector General General Samsayid said, we're not sure, but

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Speaker 3: we think he was an airman and even more than that,

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Speaker 3: he may have been dishonorably discharged for a violent offense

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Speaker 3: while on active duty. And we might have failed to

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Speaker 3: inform the FBI, which would have if there was a

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Speaker 3: way to put somebody on a list so they can't

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Speaker 3: buy a weapon.

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Speaker 1: And so Dave.

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Speaker 3: And I talked that Sunday afternoon. We agreed we would

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Speaker 3: meet at nine o'clock in the morning in our conference

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Speaker 3: room and find out the facts and then and take

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Speaker 3: it from there. But it was awful. It was just awful.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. So you know, as it all came together, most

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Speaker 4: important thing for us was to sort of get as

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Speaker 4: many facts as we could that we when we gathered

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Speaker 4: the people on Monday, to get everybody together.

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Speaker 3: And it was so when we got together at nine

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Speaker 3: o'clock in the morning, the Inspector General General say confirmed

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Speaker 3: that yes he was an airman, Yes he had been

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Speaker 3: convicted of a violent offense while on active duty, and

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Speaker 3: that the service had failed to inform the FBI and

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Speaker 3: put him on the list so he couldn't buy a weapon.

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Speaker 3: And then you think it you know, you think at

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Speaker 3: that point it can't get worse, but it did because

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Speaker 3: the next thing we found out in that meeting was

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Speaker 3: that the Defense Department Inspector General had done a review

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Speaker 3: three years earlier of whether all of the services were

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Speaker 3: appropriately notifying the FBI and putting people on them you know,

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Speaker 3: can't by a weapon list, and said there were problems.

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Speaker 3: So we had been told that the system didn't work.

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Speaker 3: There was an audit finding, and we didn't fix it.

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Speaker 3: So it was not a good day.

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Speaker 2: So you have we have a case of somebody who

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Speaker 2: is dishonorably discharged for a violent offense, and what's the

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Speaker 2: internal mechanism in which the way that case is dealt

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Speaker 2: with within the Air Force.

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Speaker 3: When systems screw up, when when things fail, it's usually

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Speaker 3: not because of somebody intended to make a mistake. Is

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Speaker 3: because you know, the person who did that job moved on,

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Speaker 3: or nobody wrote down the procedures, or people weren't adequately trained,

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Speaker 3: and the way it was supposed to work in the

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Speaker 3: service is that a felony offenses. Unlike minor offenses, felony

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Speaker 3: offenses are handled by the Office of Special Investigations and

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Speaker 3: a military prosecutor. Once there is a conviction, it should

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Speaker 3: have been reported on a system by that Office of

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Speaker 3: Special Investigations to the FBI and then it is closed

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Speaker 3: out and you know, put on file. That didn't happen.

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Speaker 3: And so it was a combination of systems and processes

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Speaker 3: and training and uh, and it wasn't done right. And

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Speaker 3: we were told that in advance when the d D

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Speaker 3: Inspector General did an audit of all of the all

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Speaker 3: of the services, and in fact that the Air Force

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Speaker 3: had been doing it, doing better on it than the

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Speaker 3: other services. But that didn't matter. We still knew we

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Speaker 3: had a problem and we'd fail to fix it.

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Speaker 2: We'll be right back with more of my conversation with

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Speaker 2: General Goldfein and doctor Wilson. After you get that call,

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Speaker 2: doctor Wilson, who do you call? Who's your first call?

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Speaker 1: Is it Dave?

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Speaker 3: My first call usually was to Dave. Now we also

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Speaker 3: talked to the General Counsel and so forth. It was

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Speaker 3: actually out of town, as I remember on that day,

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Speaker 3: but one of the things, and this is one of

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Speaker 3: the things about our relationship is service secretary in chief.

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Speaker 3: The chief has an obligation to give his best military

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Speaker 3: advice to the civilians appointed to run the department. As

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Speaker 3: a secretary, there's nothing that says that you have an

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Speaker 3: obligation to ask for it. But I generally did a

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Speaker 3: much better job when I asked for it, because Dave

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Speaker 3: Goldfeen may be a much better secretary.

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Speaker 2: You said you guys were shaped by the same values,

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Speaker 2: and this is a really important part, and I want

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Speaker 2: you to talk a little bit before we go on.

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Speaker 1: I want you to talk about it. What do you

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Speaker 1: mean by that?

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Speaker 4: So each service has a set of core values that

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Speaker 4: are infused into every member of the institution, normally during

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Speaker 4: basic training and then reinforced throughout their time in service.

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Speaker 4: And so you could go to each service and find

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Speaker 4: those core values. For us, it's integrity, service, and excellence.

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Speaker 4: And so you know, integrity first is how we're taught

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Speaker 4: to approach all things. So you know, in terms of

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Speaker 4: how we approach this, it started off with ownership because

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Speaker 4: we needed to ensure that we were true to the

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Speaker 4: values of the institution and that we were representing the

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Speaker 4: institution correctly as its leaders, and so integrity first, service

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Speaker 4: before self, meaning that we you know, we look at

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Speaker 4: this opportunity to lead as a gift that's offered by

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Speaker 4: those who were privileged to serve, and each day we

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Speaker 4: asked the question, are we worthy of that trust and

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Speaker 4: competence not only of the airman that we were privileged

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Speaker 4: to lead, but also the American people that entrusted us

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Speaker 4: with their sons and daughters. And so those core values drive,

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Speaker 4: you know, how we choose to handle things throughout our careers.

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Speaker 3: I would say on the integrity first part. Once on

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Speaker 3: that Monday morning, we knew the truth. We knew that

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Speaker 3: he had been an airman, We knew that he had

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Speaker 3: been convicted of a violent crime, and we knew that

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Speaker 3: we should have reported at to the FBI, and we didn't.

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Speaker 3: Those were facts we knew by Monday morning. And as

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Speaker 3: I said, our general counsel was out of town, but

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Speaker 3: there was a more junior lawyer around the table there

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Speaker 3: and everybody was just man was just a somber meeting.

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Speaker 3: But the lawyer when we kind of went around the

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Speaker 3: table and said, all right, what do you think we

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Speaker 3: should do next? On this one? It was very often

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Speaker 3: that Dave and I came from things from a slightly

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Speaker 3: different perspectives. You know, we we'd see different things, and

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Speaker 3: I think we made better decisions because ste sharpened steel.

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Speaker 3: We'd engage a lot with each other, but in this one,

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Speaker 3: there was no daylight between us. From the very beginning,

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Speaker 3: we knew the truth and we thought we needed to

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Speaker 3: just say it, and so we made a decision at

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Speaker 3: that meeting that we would release a statement by late

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Speaker 3: that morning. We gave them a deadline of eleven. I

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Speaker 3: think it took us till one. It always takes a

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Speaker 3: little longer, but to say, to say what we knew,

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Speaker 3: and we also thought that that would allow our institution

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Speaker 3: to focus on fixing the problem rather than denying it

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Speaker 3: or delaying things, or trying to duck accountability. And David

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Speaker 3: and I also did a press conference or press availability

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Speaker 3: with the Pentagon media the following morning, which was you know,

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Speaker 3: that wasn't fun. But some ways, when we just said

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Speaker 3: these are the facts as we know them, and this

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Speaker 3: is what we're doing to fix the problem, what could

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Speaker 3: they ask? You know, we weren't going to deny things.

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Speaker 3: It was really unpleasant, but it was the truth, and

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Speaker 3: I think Dave and I were both committed to just

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Speaker 3: telling the truth. Well, good afternoon, Paps open up with

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Speaker 3: a couple of remarks. The offenses for which the shooter

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Speaker 3: in Texas was court martialed should have been reported, and

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Speaker 3: that's why we launched a full scale review of this

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Speaker 3: case and all others like it. Since Sunday night, the

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Speaker 3: Air Force Inspector General has talked to about one hundred

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Speaker 3: people involved in this case. We are looking at all

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Speaker 3: of our databases and if we have problems that we find,

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Speaker 3: we'll fix them.

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Speaker 2: David, you can you can you give us your memory

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Speaker 2: of that press conference?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so, you know, it's uh. I think we both

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Speaker 4: expected to get, you know, really tough questions and we

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Speaker 4: were prepared, you know, to own up. But it was,

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Speaker 4: like Heather said, right once we opened up with hey,

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Speaker 4: we own this. You know, we we the United States

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Speaker 4: Air Force goofed this up, and we as the leaders,

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Speaker 4: represent the institution that guped this up. And so we

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Speaker 4: take ownership and our focus is now on ensure that

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Speaker 4: we understand all the facts and we are going to

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Speaker 4: fix this to ensure that it can never happen again.

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Speaker 4: Once we started off with that statement, you really could

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Speaker 4: have sort of felt the air go out of the room.

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Speaker 4: And then the questions at that point were just more

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Speaker 4: about detail, and I don't remember getting any really pointed,

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Speaker 4: you know, attacks or questions. It was more okay, well

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Speaker 4: tell us what you know about this, and how are

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Speaker 4: you going to handle that? And so I think that,

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Speaker 4: you know, my recollection of it was it accomplished what

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Speaker 4: we were hoping it would accomplish, which was taking ownership.

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Speaker 3: One of the things that somebody around that table on

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Speaker 3: Monday morning said was, well, you know, you and the

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Speaker 3: Chief weren't the leaders of the Air Force at the

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Speaker 3: time this prosecution happened and they failed to report. And

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Speaker 3: both Dave and I had the same reaction was that

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Speaker 3: doesn't matter. We represent the institution. And Dave couldn't take

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Speaker 3: the four stars off of his shoulders anymore than I

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Speaker 3: could take the Airmen symbol off of my lapel. When

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Speaker 3: you are the leader, you own the institution and you

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Speaker 3: represent the institution, and you have to take ownership for

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Speaker 3: the institution and lead it forward. And so the fact

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Speaker 3: that it didn't happen on our watch, that's no excuse.

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Speaker 3: We're not going to make an excuse. We're not going

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Speaker 3: to say it was somebody else's problem.

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Speaker 1: We'll be right back. What happens next.

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Speaker 2: You have this press conference, You've you've told the world

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Speaker 2: we're looking into We're going to go over every single case,

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Speaker 2: make sure we've done the right thing, but we still

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Speaker 2: have the aftermath.

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Speaker 3: In Texas, this was a this was a bedroom community

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Speaker 3: for Randolph Air Force Base, and then some of the

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Speaker 3: victims were the family of an airman who was deployed overseas,

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Speaker 3: and Dave took the lead on that part, and I'll

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Speaker 3: let him tell that part.

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Speaker 4: So we reached out to the community and because there

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Speaker 4: was a series of funerals they were holding, and reached

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Speaker 4: out to the mayor of San Antonio, Ron Nuremberg at

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Speaker 4: the time, and asked if it would be appropriate and

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Speaker 4: it would be acceptable for me to travel to the

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Speaker 4: San Antonio and attend the funeral in uniform representing the service,

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Speaker 4: knowing that we were, you know, we were responsible for

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Speaker 4: everything we've been talking about. Because I wanted to make

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Speaker 4: sure that we weren't contributing to any increased pain by

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Speaker 4: me being there, and I offered to also come into

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Speaker 4: the entire if that's what they preferred, and they said, no,

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Speaker 4: we'd appreciate if you would be here in uniform. So

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Speaker 4: I met with the mayor first and we talked about,

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Speaker 4: all right, how do we ensure that this is not

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Speaker 4: just you know, once and done, that we have a

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Speaker 4: long term commitment to this community. As the community works

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Speaker 4: to recover from this tragedy, how do we ensure the

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Speaker 4: Air Force is continually plugged in for the long term.

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Speaker 4: So that was what the agenda working out with the mayor.

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Speaker 2: Tell me more about going to that funeral, you're how

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Speaker 2: did you feel on the flight down?

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Speaker 4: Well, it was I knew that we had airman that

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Speaker 4: was deployed and several members of his family. This is

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Speaker 4: a young airman. Several men member of his families were

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Speaker 4: killed and we were going to be several, yes, members

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Speaker 4: of his extended family because a member again. Sutherland Springs

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Speaker 4: is a bedroom community for Randolph Air Force Base, which

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Speaker 4: is one of our largest Air Force training bases. So

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Speaker 4: the number of people that come through Randolph, that's probably

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Speaker 4: one of the most traveled bases. So when you talk

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Speaker 4: to airman right and ask them of their common experiences,

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Speaker 4: many of them will share a period of time when

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Speaker 4: they went through Randolph Air Force Base or Lackland Air

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Speaker 4: Force Base in San Antonio. So San Antonio is known

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Speaker 4: as Military City, USA. Is one of the the monikers

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Speaker 4: that it's used because there's so much military. You can't

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Speaker 4: go to the airport in San Antonio without seeing a

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Speaker 4: large number of young airmen who are who are arriving

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Speaker 4: for basic training or leaving, and so you know, on

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Speaker 4: the way down, I'm traveling in uniform to Military City, USA,

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Speaker 4: and I'm going to meet with this airman. And having

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Speaker 4: had the unfortunate opportunity to meet with a lot of

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Speaker 4: airman and families over the course of my career, especially

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Speaker 4: in the two years I was the Air Component Commander

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Speaker 4: for Central Command where we lost a number of soldier, sailors,

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Speaker 4: airman Marines while I was there. I'd had experience with

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Speaker 4: handling the tragedy of death and talking with the families,

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Speaker 4: and so I had a good sense of what I

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Speaker 4: was stepping into. I'll never forget, you know, going to

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Speaker 4: the funeral and I met with the pastor of the church,

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Speaker 4: Frank Pomeroy, and it continually remains perhaps one of the

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Speaker 4: most profound spiritual moments that I had as chief. When

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Speaker 4: you know, Pastor Pomeroy stood up and started off by

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Speaker 4: asking us if we would pray for the shooter and

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Speaker 4: his family, and he did so while his fourteen year

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Speaker 4: old daughter was in a casket because she they had

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Speaker 4: lost her in the shooting. I don't know if there's

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Speaker 4: a better example of spiritual courage, right we forgive those

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Speaker 4: who trespass against us. I don't know that we're going

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Speaker 4: to find a better example of that. And so being

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Speaker 4: there for that airman, being there for those families was,

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Speaker 4: you know, both profound and also I think every time

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Speaker 4: there's a setback or a failure in an institution, it's

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Speaker 4: an opportunity for the leaders to teach the next generation

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Speaker 4: how to handle failure because we all get knocked down.

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Speaker 4: All institutions have failures. The question is not whether you're

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Speaker 4: going to fail. The question is how do you handle

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Speaker 4: it when you do fail? Do you take ownership? Do

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Speaker 4: you step up? Do you get back up? And do

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Speaker 4: you teach the next generation of leaders how to handle

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Speaker 4: failures so that they can be more prepared when it

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Speaker 4: comes to them, because it's going to come to them.

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Speaker 4: My concern on this particular one was would there be

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Speaker 4: a hostile reaction by the community to my being there,

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Speaker 4: because it's a hostile reaction not to me, but a

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Speaker 4: hostile reaction to Ni States Air Force. And there was

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Speaker 4: none of that. It was a welcoming opening. Sutherland Springs

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Speaker 4: is an incredible community. And again I go back to

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Speaker 4: Pastor of Frank Pomeroy, who is just an incredible and

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Speaker 4: incredible spiritual leader. I think he set the tone for

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Speaker 4: all of us when he asked us to pray for

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Speaker 4: the shooter.

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Speaker 1: And there was there wasn't a hostile reaction because you

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Speaker 1: showed up.

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Speaker 4: I don't know how much of it was, because I

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Speaker 4: think it was more we were all there for the

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Speaker 4: same purpose, right. I was not there to do anything

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Speaker 4: other than I mean, I didn't sit in I didn't

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Speaker 4: sit in the front road. They tried to, you know,

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Speaker 4: move me up to the front row, and I said, no,

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Speaker 4: I'm I'm part of this community today, and so I

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Speaker 4: want to sit with the community, and I'd like to

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Speaker 4: sit in an area that is, you know, with the

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Speaker 4: families that are represented here. And and so this was

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Speaker 4: not a you know, we made a point. I made

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Speaker 4: a point of my team. I said, uh, do not

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Speaker 4: please make this a big protocol event for the Chief

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Speaker 4: of Staff of the Air Force. This is Dave Goldfing

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Speaker 4: coming here to show my respect, my love for these families,

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Speaker 4: and to represent the institution that let them down.

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Speaker 1: M hm hm.

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Speaker 3: So I don't think I could have done that. First

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Speaker 3: of all, I think Dave was Now there's a when

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Speaker 3: people think about the American Air Force, they don't think

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Speaker 3: about somebody in civilian clothes the secretary. They think about

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Speaker 3: our uniform military And so I think Dave was the

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Speaker 3: right one to represent us there, and he and I

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Speaker 3: talk about this. I also think I'm not sure I

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Speaker 3: could have done what he did. I mean, it was

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Speaker 3: it was just pretty amazing as.

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Speaker 1: A leader to do that.

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Speaker 3: But I don't mean with the humility that he did it,

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Speaker 3: because he's that way. But just the whole thing's just

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Speaker 3: so incredibly heartbreaking.

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Speaker 1: M One last question. It's such an extraordinary story.

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Speaker 2: Can you reflect on what this ought to teach us,

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Speaker 2: what this taught you, and what this ought to teach

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Speaker 2: us about what a leader is.

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Speaker 3: You know, there's a variety of lessons I think woven

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Speaker 3: into this. I actually had to go up to Capitol

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Speaker 3: Hill and testify in front of the Senate several months

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Speaker 3: after this happened, and anybody who testifies in front of

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Speaker 3: the Senate needs to be prepared, to be grilled, to

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Speaker 3: get really hard questions. And I've had harder questions on

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Speaker 3: more benign topics than I did on that day. And

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Speaker 3: I think part of it was because I did in

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Speaker 3: my opening statement pretty much what Dave and I had

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Speaker 3: done the day after it happened, which was to own

402
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Speaker 3: it and to tell the Senate what we were doing

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Speaker 3: to fix it. And I, of course had met individually

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Speaker 3: with the Senators, mostly the Senators and House members most

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Speaker 3: directly affected. I remember we had a wonderful Director of

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Speaker 3: Legislative Affairs, General Steve Bash, he called him Bash. He

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Speaker 3: was a B two pilot, very experienced in legislative affairs

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Speaker 3: and an aviation and he was sitting behind me in

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Speaker 3: his very stoic way as he did as a two star,

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Speaker 3: and helped prepare me. He had been there Monday morning,

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Speaker 3: sitting through the meetings. He had gone with me to

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Speaker 3: the Hill for all of the one on ones. He

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Speaker 3: had been involved in all of this, and he was

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Speaker 3: he was a very straight guy, very professional guy. And

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Speaker 3: when we walked out of that hearing, he said, you know,

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Speaker 3: Madam's secretary, I learned something today that's pretty strong statement

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Speaker 3: coming from a two star with all of his experience.

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Speaker 3: I said, well, what's that bash? He said, The result

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Speaker 3: of today's hearing wasn't decided today. It happened in the

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Speaker 3: twenty four hours after the incident, when you and the

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Speaker 3: chief took ownership. And by taking ownership, by owning failure,

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Speaker 3: we not only allowed the institution to focus on fixing

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Speaker 3: the problem and focusing on the future rather than on

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Speaker 3: kind of trying to mess around and deny the past.

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Speaker 3: But it also you know, sometimes when institutions screw up,

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Speaker 3: they get sued or their just claims or whatever. And yes,

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Speaker 3: the government did get sued. The Air Force got sued

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Speaker 3: by the families of the victims. But for it as

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Speaker 3: the institution, the families also were. If we had denied responsibility,

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Speaker 3: the relationship between the communities and the service would have

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Speaker 3: been completely different. And because it would have been you know,

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Speaker 3: range linked difference with lawyers talking to lawyers, and it

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Speaker 3: would not have allowed them to heal either. And so

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Speaker 3: I think it mattered to the institution to be able

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Speaker 3: to say, okay, when things get screwed up, the best

436
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Speaker 3: thing to do is to own it and fix it

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Speaker 3: even when it really hurts. And it's also the best

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Speaker 3: for the people who have been impacted by the failure.

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Speaker 4: I'll share with you that I've come to believe over

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Speaker 4: the years that the journey to becoming an inspirational servant

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Speaker 4: leader is a journey that actually never ends. I'm still

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Speaker 4: not the servant leader I want to be, but I'm

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Speaker 4: working on it. And I think if we ever get

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Speaker 4: to a point where we plant the flag as leaders

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Speaker 4: and believe we've figured it all out and got it

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Speaker 4: all maybe that's a pretty good indication of it's time

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Speaker 4: to retire, because we stop learning, we stopped listening, we

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Speaker 4: stop growing as leaders. And so, you know, leadership as

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Speaker 4: a servant leader is a gift, and it's a gift

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Speaker 4: that's offered by those you're privileged to lead, and you've

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Speaker 4: got to earn and re earn that gift every single day.

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Speaker 4: And you earn trust and confidence as a leader over weeks, months,

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Speaker 4: and years, but it can be lost in a single

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Speaker 4: moment of indiscretion or bad decision making or bad behavior.

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Speaker 4: And so for us, there was an opportunity that was

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Speaker 4: presented for us to teach that next generation of leaders

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Speaker 4: what servant leadership looks like. And so perhaps part of

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Speaker 4: the you know, the positive outcome of this incredibly terrible

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Speaker 4: tragedy for these families in this community is there's a

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Speaker 4: there's a story here that can help the next generation

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Speaker 4: when they face something similar and how to step up

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Speaker 4: as leaders and take ownership.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to change what I said at the beginning.

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Speaker 2: I don't just want Heather Wilson to run for president.

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Speaker 2: I want the two of them on the ticket. Doesn't

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Speaker 2: matter which party, doesn't matter which order. Wilson and Golfing

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Speaker 2: are Goldfing and Wilson. Wilson and Golfing in twenty twenty

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Speaker 2: eight to remind us.

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Speaker 1: What real leadership looks like.

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Speaker 2: If you want to know more about the two of them,

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Speaker 2: they wrote a wonderful book together, Get Back Up Lessons

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Speaker 2: in Servant Leadership. Links to the book are in our

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Speaker 2: show notes. Revisionist History is produced by Nina Bird, Lawrence

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Speaker 2: Lucy Sullivan, and Ben Nadafh Haffrey. Our editor is Karen Schakerji,

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Speaker 2: fact checking by Angelie Mercado. Our executive producer is Jacob Smith.

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Speaker 2: Engineering by Nina Bird Lawrence Owen Miller and Sarah Bugeer.

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Speaker 2: Original music by Luis Guerra, Sound design and mastering by

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Speaker 2: Jake Gorsky. I'm Malcolm Gladwell, coming next week on our

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Speaker 2: Mistakes series.

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Speaker 1: He's like, YO, I need you to make a record,

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Speaker 1: and I said what he said, make a record with

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Speaker 1: j Low and put jaw on it and make it

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Speaker 1: a duet