1 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:06,120 Speaker 1: What do you do when life doesn't go according to 2 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:09,719 Speaker 1: plan that moment you lose a job, or a loved one, 3 00:00:10,240 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 1: or even a piece of yourself. I'm Brookshields and this 4 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: is now What, a podcast about pivotal moments as told 5 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 1: by people who lived them. Each week, I sit down 6 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:23,800 Speaker 1: with a guest to talk about the times they were 7 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 1: knocked off course and what they did to move forward. 8 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 1: Some stories are funny, others are gut wrenching, but all 9 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 1: are unapologetically human and remind us that every success and 10 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 1: every setback is accompanied by a choice, and that choice 11 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:45,640 Speaker 1: answers one question, now What. 12 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 2: I will tell you one of the best episodes of 13 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:54,760 Speaker 2: TIV that I always think about. You did an episode 14 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 2: of Law and Order criminal Intent. I did along where 15 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 2: you played the sort of metaverse of what people would 16 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:04,839 Speaker 2: have presumed as you, but you had there's this moment 17 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:08,280 Speaker 2: where you are so angry. It is one of the best, 18 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 2: like five minutes of television. It's one of my favorite episodes. 19 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:14,279 Speaker 2: Whenever it comes on, I'm like, this is the Brookshields episode. 20 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 2: I've got to watch it. 21 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:18,200 Speaker 1: Oh God, well, thank you. That was so long ago, 22 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:22,640 Speaker 1: and that was one of the most difficult shoots I 23 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:26,120 Speaker 1: have ever been on. And it was four in the morning. 24 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:30,240 Speaker 1: It was freezing. I waited. They kept me waiting all day. 25 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:33,080 Speaker 1: It was funny that when I jump in the water, 26 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 1: I had those little those chicken cutlets to fill out 27 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:40,119 Speaker 1: my bikini top. Oh, and I dove in the water 28 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:42,760 Speaker 1: and the chicken cutlet came out and floated to the top. 29 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:43,759 Speaker 2: Oh my goodness. 30 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 1: The director was like, you might want to put that back. 31 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 1: My guest today is Stacy Abrams. Stacy is a politician, 32 00:01:56,600 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 1: an activist, a policy expert, and a fiction writer who's 33 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 1: penned more than a dozen books, including her latest, Rogue Justice. 34 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:09,720 Speaker 1: I first heard of Stacy in twenty eighteen, when she 35 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:15,799 Speaker 1: was the groundbreaking Democratic nominee in Georgia's governor's race. Since then, 36 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:19,959 Speaker 1: I have watched her become a national political figure, an 37 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:24,520 Speaker 1: essential voice in the battle against voter suppression, and a 38 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 1: true inspiration to millions of young people. She's had massive 39 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 1: wins and a few very public losses, but her resilience, intellect, 40 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 1: and dedication to her beliefs are undeniable. I am so 41 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 1: happy she agreed to join me, and hope that you 42 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 1: enjoy our conversation as much as I did. Here is 43 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 1: Stacy Abrams. Well welcome Stacy Abrams. Thank you so much 44 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:53,400 Speaker 1: for coming on the show. 45 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:56,839 Speaker 2: I am honored. This is really a privilege. 46 00:02:57,040 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. I think the privilege is really, really, 47 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 1: really really mine. I always like to just start with 48 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:07,720 Speaker 1: how you see yourself and how you would describe yourself. 49 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:10,360 Speaker 1: So who is Stacy Abrams? 50 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 2: I've once described myself I am a reality show waiting 51 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 2: to happen. So I've had this extraordinary opportunity to try 52 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 2: most of the things. I imagine my mom said, she said, 53 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 2: you don't want to be a jack of all trades 54 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 2: and a master of none. And when she said it, 55 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:33,639 Speaker 2: what she intended was Stacy kind of picked two or 56 00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 2: three things. What I heard was master everything. That's what 57 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 2: stuck with me. So I've spent my life really trying 58 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 2: to learn as much as I can to do the 59 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 2: things I want, but not to just glancingly do it, 60 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 2: to really dig deep and be good at it. I 61 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:56,120 Speaker 2: think of myself as a problem solver, someone who regardless 62 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 2: of what the problem is, regardless of the field, regardless 63 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 2: of the issue, with the exception of dating, because I 64 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 2: haven't figured out how to solve that problem. I see 65 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:07,760 Speaker 2: myself as someone who can find answers, and answers are 66 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 2: rarely in the first place you look, and so you've 67 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 2: got to be open to and able to look in 68 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 2: multiple places. And so that's how I see myself. 69 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 1: What was your childhood like? What kind of a child 70 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:20,680 Speaker 1: were you? In addition to that. 71 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:23,600 Speaker 2: I grew up in southern Mississippi. I am the second 72 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 2: of six kids. My oldest sister is three years older, 73 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 2: so we're all very close, and we lived in a 74 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:33,359 Speaker 2: small house, so we were all physically very close. My 75 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 2: mom was a librarian, my dad was a shipyard worker. 76 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 2: We didn't have very much in material resources, but my 77 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 2: mom and dad were always very intentional about us never 78 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:48,480 Speaker 2: feeling a lack of and the corollary to that was 79 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:50,920 Speaker 2: that they also raised us with a very strong sense 80 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 2: of obligation that your job is to serve that no 81 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:57,159 Speaker 2: matter how little we had, someone had less. And so 82 00:04:57,560 --> 00:04:59,039 Speaker 2: the lights might be off at home, but my parents 83 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 2: would take us to a soup kit to volunteer, or 84 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:04,320 Speaker 2: we didn't have running water, but they were going to 85 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:07,960 Speaker 2: have us volunteering at a nursing home because they never 86 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 2: wanted us to see our material space as justifying our 87 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:15,680 Speaker 2: lack of obligation and commitment to others. 88 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:18,680 Speaker 1: Wow, and that's so. I mean, it's one thing to 89 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 1: tell your family and your kids to do this or 90 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:25,479 Speaker 1: make them go somewhere, but to instill it in them 91 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:30,240 Speaker 1: by example as well. Were they a religious Were you 92 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:32,560 Speaker 1: in a religious household? Oh? 93 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 2: Yes, So my parents were both from very strong religious backgrounds. 94 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:40,560 Speaker 2: And indeed, when I was fifteen, my parents accepted their 95 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:43,719 Speaker 2: call to the ministry and we moved from Mississippi to 96 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:47,480 Speaker 2: Georgia because they both did their Masters of Divinity at 97 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:50,800 Speaker 2: Emory University at the age of forty to become United 98 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:53,719 Speaker 2: Methodist ministers. Working full time with six kids, my older 99 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:56,080 Speaker 2: sister was the only one who was out of high school, 100 00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 2: and so we never had the excuse of not doing 101 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 2: stuff because my mom were like, we went to grad 102 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 2: school at forty, so shut out. 103 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:07,760 Speaker 1: You're a slacker. What about your peers now, your peers 104 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:11,599 Speaker 1: at that time, where they did they struggle financially? Yeah? 105 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 2: So where I grew up in Mississippi, absolutely, we lived 106 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 2: on South Street. But the way I describe it as 107 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:19,240 Speaker 2: we lived on South Street and North Street, they got 108 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 2: really exotic names. The further the closer you got to 109 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 2: the middle class side of town, the fancier the names got. So. 110 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:30,560 Speaker 2: But again, when you grow up in a middle class community, 111 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 2: lower income community, you're usually surrounded by people of similar circumstances, 112 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 2: which makes those circumstances regular. But I what I credit 113 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 2: my parents for was that they never again, they never 114 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:48,359 Speaker 2: permitted us to wallow. It was never a question of 115 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 2: what we had or didn't have. It was a question 116 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:52,919 Speaker 2: of what were you willing to do, what did you 117 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:54,240 Speaker 2: work for, what did you need? 118 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:56,920 Speaker 1: Well, it's also that the type of you know, there 119 00:06:56,920 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 1: are people that define themselves as victims and it starts 120 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 1: to set the precedence for who they are. But kids 121 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:07,839 Speaker 1: aren't born with that. So if they see there was 122 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:11,400 Speaker 1: affluence because there was love and support and safety and 123 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 1: joy and education being truly a key to a future. 124 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 2: Absolutely. I mean for my parents it was very much. 125 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 2: We had three jobs, go to church, go to school, 126 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 2: take care of each other. I don't I will say 127 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:33,120 Speaker 2: it this way. I know there are those who understand 128 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 2: their victimization and they hold to it. I don't think 129 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:42,240 Speaker 2: it's inappropriate to know that you have been victimized or 130 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 2: targeted by a system because If you don't know, you 131 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 2: can't try to change it. The issue is do you 132 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 2: stay there? Do you stay clinging to the victimization as 133 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:56,720 Speaker 2: a justification for not taking action, or do you use 134 00:07:56,760 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 2: it as a galvanizing force. My parents grew up as 135 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 2: teen during the Civil Rights movement, and they saw it 136 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 2: as a call to action. They were denied their citizenship. 137 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 2: My dad was arrested when he was fourteen for registering 138 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:15,720 Speaker 2: black people to vote, and my grandfather was conscripted into 139 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 2: the army for the Korean War and World War Two, 140 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 2: but never allowed to vote in an election. When he 141 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 2: came home from fighting abroad, his kids couldn't go to 142 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:27,880 Speaker 2: the colleges where he and my grandmother worked, and so 143 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 2: they had every right to acknowledge their victimhood and their victimization. 144 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 2: But what they refused to do is let it define 145 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:39,560 Speaker 2: how they would shape their lives, other than using it 146 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:44,880 Speaker 2: as a galvanizing force and sometimes a roadmap to what 147 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 2: they wanted for the next generation. 148 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 1: When do you think that you actually really saw the 149 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:51,679 Speaker 1: system for what it was. 150 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 2: Oh, I was very young. I was in first grade. 151 00:08:56,520 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 2: I was already reading, I was fairly advanced, and I 152 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:04,720 Speaker 2: was bored. I was bored to tears in my class, 153 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 2: and they wouldn't I get in trouble for reading too much. 154 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 2: And it took another teacher to tell my parents I 155 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 2: was being held back because they were waiting for two 156 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:18,080 Speaker 2: young white girls to catch up with me. And it 157 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 2: wasn't because they were worried about my socialization. I was 158 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 2: first grade, second grade and saw the same thing. It 159 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 2: was they didn't want the precedent of moving me and 160 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 2: not moving these other girls. 161 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:30,319 Speaker 1: That's unthinkable, but it was, you know. 162 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 2: And I was. I was aware of the fact that 163 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 2: I was chastised. I didn't know the politics of it. 164 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:40,680 Speaker 2: My parents found out and I was then very quickly 165 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:42,960 Speaker 2: moved into the second grade. It was very scary because 166 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 2: no one told me what was happening. The principal came 167 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 2: and got me from class and took me outside because 168 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:50,680 Speaker 2: we had trailers, and you know, only the big kids 169 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:52,960 Speaker 2: went outside to the trailers. I'm the first grade, and 170 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 2: so I walked out to this trailer and I'm fairly 171 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:57,640 Speaker 2: certain I'm going to die. I'm like, I don't know 172 00:09:57,679 --> 00:09:59,680 Speaker 2: what happened out here, but it's not what I'm supposed 173 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:03,840 Speaker 2: to see. And then the trailer door opens and there's 174 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:07,719 Speaker 2: this tall, beautiful woman who looks like an angel, and 175 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 2: the sun is beaming down because it's Mississippi and it's 176 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:14,080 Speaker 2: you know, the fall. And she smiles at me and 177 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:16,720 Speaker 2: her name is Missus Blakesley, and she invites me into 178 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 2: the trailer and I'm like, oh, thank God, I'm not 179 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 2: going to die. But that was how I moved from 180 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:24,439 Speaker 2: first grade to second grade. 181 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:29,959 Speaker 1: That's incredible. I mean, you're you're clearly extraordinarily intelligent and 182 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 1: very smart, and you incredibly astute even as a little person, 183 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 1: and you've become a real role model for so many 184 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 1: women in particular and particularly young women. Did you have 185 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:51,720 Speaker 1: any people that you really looked up to or icons 186 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 1: when you were a child that you. 187 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:58,959 Speaker 2: Taught you not necessarily? I mean they're my mom, of course, 188 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 2: my dad, my grandmother and grandfather, my paternal grandparents we 189 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 2: were very close to. I got a chance to know 190 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 2: my grandmother, my maternal grandmother well, and my great grandmother. 191 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:12,600 Speaker 2: We called her Moomoo, who to me was the most 192 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:15,920 Speaker 2: resilient human I'd ever met. She used to joke that 193 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:19,200 Speaker 2: we would when we would be visiting her house, we 194 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 2: would watch baseball on the radio because she couldn't afford 195 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:27,439 Speaker 2: a television. She was the daughter of sharecroppers, and even 196 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 2: though she had a television, you only turned the TV 197 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:31,960 Speaker 2: on for like special occasions. But we would sit in 198 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 2: her front room and watch baseball on the radio, which. 199 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 1: Was it's kind of amazing. 200 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 2: It was just it was it was exciting and it 201 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:45,840 Speaker 2: was fun. But I grew up surrounded by people who 202 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:50,679 Speaker 2: believed that they were entitled to more, believe they were 203 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 2: responsible for working for more, and believe they should create 204 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 2: a path for others to get more. I knew about 205 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:02,720 Speaker 2: the icons of the civil rights movement, icons and politics. 206 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:04,959 Speaker 2: I you know, I watched a lot of Dynasty in 207 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:07,199 Speaker 2: General Hospital as a child, so you know. 208 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:10,680 Speaker 1: Those covered your bass I did. 209 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:15,040 Speaker 2: But what I extracted from it, and I think, you 210 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:18,960 Speaker 2: know this, what you extract from your experiences, it's filtered 211 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:22,719 Speaker 2: through your sense of self. How do I use what 212 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 2: I'm learning? How do I use what I'm doing to 213 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 2: solve problems either problems that I have, problems that others have, 214 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:32,240 Speaker 2: problems no one knows about. And there weren't a lot 215 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 2: of people who looked like me who were talked about 216 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:37,720 Speaker 2: in that vein when I was growing up and That's 217 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:41,319 Speaker 2: one of the reasons I've been so assertive about where 218 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:44,559 Speaker 2: I stand and what I want because I didn't have 219 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:48,199 Speaker 2: people who looked like me or came from my experiences 220 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 2: who could do so. 221 00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 1: Was there a seminal moment in which you decided to 222 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 1: pivot towards politics and how did that come about in 223 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 1: your life? 224 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:09,720 Speaker 2: I saw it less as a pivot and more as 225 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:13,559 Speaker 2: an evolution. So if you go back to solving problems, 226 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:16,440 Speaker 2: I think poverty is a moral I think it is 227 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:20,840 Speaker 2: economically inefficient. I think it is solvable. And if you 228 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:23,559 Speaker 2: look at all the pieces the facets of my life, 229 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 2: whether it's being a tax attorney or a writer or 230 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:32,600 Speaker 2: an organizer, everything I've done in my mind is shaping 231 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 2: how I can tackle this problem because it has a 232 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:39,160 Speaker 2: corporate side to it, has a public sector side to it, 233 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:41,000 Speaker 2: has a non profit side to it. So I've always 234 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 2: tried to operate in all of those dimensions. But I 235 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 2: reached sort of a plateau where the next set of 236 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 2: changes that I needed to see, I did my best 237 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 2: to get other politicians to do it for me. I 238 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:56,680 Speaker 2: was their lawyer, I worked on their campaigns. Many of 239 00:13:56,720 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 2: them did what they could, but there were there are 240 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:03,960 Speaker 2: institutional and structural impediments, especially in the South, to exercising 241 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:06,440 Speaker 2: political power. And while I could get young people to 242 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:10,120 Speaker 2: vote and worked on voter voter rights and democracy, I 243 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:14,560 Speaker 2: could work for politicians and draft legislation. All of those 244 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 2: things had me as a supplicant to others trying to 245 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:21,480 Speaker 2: get them to do and so standing for office myself, 246 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 2: whether it was when I stood for office in the 247 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 2: when I was a student at Spelman, or when I 248 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 2: ran for office in two thousand and six, it was 249 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:32,240 Speaker 2: because I'd reached the inflection point where I could no 250 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 2: longer ask someone else to do it. I needed to 251 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 2: be the one to do it myself. And being the 252 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:44,040 Speaker 2: candidate versus being the campaign manager or the supporter or 253 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 2: the lawyer was just the shift in where my role was. 254 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 2: It was never a shift in what my goal was. 255 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:54,200 Speaker 1: Oh wow. And then so in twenty eighteen, when you 256 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 1: first round for governor in Georgia, there was a lot 257 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:03,080 Speaker 1: a lot of the narrative really centered around the novelty 258 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 1: of you just as a candidate. But you'd had a 259 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 1: very long career before that. Were there any experiences that 260 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:13,720 Speaker 1: you felt were extremely formative? 261 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 2: When I stood for a leader in twenty ten, and 262 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:21,280 Speaker 2: I ran to be the minority leader or the leader 263 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 2: of the Democrats in the House days after we'd lost 264 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:27,920 Speaker 2: every state wide election. We had fewer members in the 265 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 2: House than since reconstruction, and we were at the lowest 266 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:34,560 Speaker 2: ebb of political power in our one hundred and thirty 267 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 2: in like one hundred and thirty years. And so I'm like, hey, 268 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 2: I want to be in charge of all this. I 269 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 2: want to be at the top in the nator. But 270 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:45,760 Speaker 2: for me it was so critical because no one thought 271 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 2: you could do anything when you feel so exhausted that 272 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 2: possibility is almost extinguished. That to me is the prime 273 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 2: opportunity to figure out what's next, because you don't have 274 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 2: a choice. And coming in the caucus was in debt, 275 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 2: the party was in debt. The following year, when redistricting 276 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 2: was done after the census, we lost even more seats, 277 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 2: and so I presided over an even smaller caucus than 278 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 2: I started with. And so it made me take all 279 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 2: of these lessons that I'd learned as an entrepreneur. How 280 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:25,960 Speaker 2: do you take the little money that someone's willing to 281 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 2: invest in you and stretch it, as you know, as 282 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:31,520 Speaker 2: far as you can how do you use the rules 283 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:35,240 Speaker 2: that they've written to stymy you to your advantage. So 284 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:37,720 Speaker 2: I would find rules that were written, you know, on 285 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:39,840 Speaker 2: the capitol. I was known because I read every bill 286 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:42,600 Speaker 2: and I knew what we could do and what we 287 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 2: couldn't do. And so every year as leader, I would 288 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 2: find some you know, hidden gem and use it to 289 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 2: bolster our visibility. The very next year they would change 290 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 2: the rules to eliminate it. But by doing that it 291 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 2: was so important because as an entrepreneur, I need to 292 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:00,680 Speaker 2: do that. I needed to do that. As a writer, 293 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:04,600 Speaker 2: I could craft a vision for what I thought should happen, 294 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:09,119 Speaker 2: and I could write our story. As a politician, I 295 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:12,119 Speaker 2: knew how to talk to people and get them to 296 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 2: buy in to what seemed like an impossible task. And 297 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:20,600 Speaker 2: as an organizer, I realized that you can't win elections 298 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:22,920 Speaker 2: if people can't vote for you. So I work to 299 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:24,919 Speaker 2: make certainly got more people registered to vote. 300 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 1: Well, I mean talk about not taking no for an answer. 301 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 1: It's just it's miraculous that you know, what's that scene 302 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:36,200 Speaker 1: when it's like dumb and dumber or something, and my 303 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:38,480 Speaker 1: one it's like, I would never date you if you 304 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:40,480 Speaker 1: were the last person on the face of the earth, 305 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:43,400 Speaker 1: and you had and he's saying, so you're saying, there's 306 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:45,959 Speaker 1: a chance, a chance, there's a chance. You know, you 307 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:48,679 Speaker 1: just find that I'm just are yours are shocked that 308 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:53,040 Speaker 1: more people don't think like you do. No, I don't. 309 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:55,640 Speaker 2: I actually I really don't think about things that way. 310 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 2: I focus on what can I control, what can I do. 311 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:03,280 Speaker 2: I've always jokingly called myself a stoic, and then I've 312 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:06,920 Speaker 2: done more reading. You know, I've read Marcus Aurelius's meditations. 313 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:10,000 Speaker 2: I've given more thought to stoicism, and one of the 314 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:13,720 Speaker 2: principles is that you can only live your life. You 315 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:17,440 Speaker 2: can't do You can't make anyone else do or be anything. 316 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:21,360 Speaker 2: I can't make people vote for me, I can't make 317 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:24,320 Speaker 2: people like me. I can't make them hire me, I 318 00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 2: can't make them date me. I can't make them read 319 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:28,920 Speaker 2: my books. But what I can do is put out 320 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:31,879 Speaker 2: the best product, be the best person, do the best work, 321 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 2: and trust that my efforts are sufficient for what I 322 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 2: can do, and then after work as hard as I 323 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 2: can to convince them that their choices could change if 324 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 2: they only knew more information. 325 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 1: So when you did not become governor in twenty eighteen, 326 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 1: which was shocking. And we'll get to the bigger issue 327 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 1: about voters. But with that attitude, how did that attitude 328 00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:00,480 Speaker 1: apply to what it felt like with that loss? What 329 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:02,200 Speaker 1: did you say to yourself. 330 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:08,200 Speaker 2: That I didn't get the job, but the work still remained. 331 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:12,640 Speaker 2: You're not entitled to win an election, but you're responsible 332 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 2: for the work you said you were going to do. 333 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:18,760 Speaker 2: And the work didn't suddenly end because my campaign ended. 334 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:23,160 Speaker 2: And so I pivoted and created fair Count or sorry 335 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:26,160 Speaker 2: for a fight, which was on democracy. Fair Count, which 336 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:28,639 Speaker 2: actually focused on the census, because that harkened back to 337 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 2: when I became leader. And the reason we've lost so 338 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:34,439 Speaker 2: many seats was that we had an undercount and the 339 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 2: census of communities of color, and so I made certainly 340 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 2: created an organization to improve the census. And then all 341 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:42,680 Speaker 2: of this is because people want better policies for their lives. 342 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 2: So I created an organization called the Southern Economic Advancement 343 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 2: Project or SEEP, and so I created this constellation of 344 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:51,320 Speaker 2: groups to do this work. And that goes to my 345 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 2: point about the way I approached things. Yes, we have 346 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:58,040 Speaker 2: different sectors, the corporate sector of the public sector, of 347 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:02,760 Speaker 2: the nonprofit sector inhabit all three sectors, and it's disconcerting 348 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:05,840 Speaker 2: to people who think, well, you should be here or 349 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 2: you were there. No, our lives are intersected by those sectors. 350 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:12,440 Speaker 2: Why shouldn't If they can come and affect me, why 351 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 2: can't I affect that? Well? 352 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:15,760 Speaker 1: Well, also, you can't act. You can't live in a 353 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:18,679 Speaker 1: silo and act in a silo because it's not as 354 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:19,560 Speaker 1: effective at all. 355 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 2: And there are lessons to be learned from all of 356 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:23,680 Speaker 2: those places. There are lessons to be learned. There are 357 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:28,240 Speaker 2: ways that things intersect and connect and influence that may 358 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:33,880 Speaker 2: not be visible but are valuable. And so after twenty eighteen, yeah, 359 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:37,160 Speaker 2: I mean I was angry for I like to say, 360 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 2: you know, I did the stages of grief and I 361 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:42,960 Speaker 2: really enjoyed anger. I hunkered down for you. But then 362 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:45,199 Speaker 2: I was like, Okay, what can anger do for me? 363 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:49,120 Speaker 2: Anger can galvanize you or can paralyze you? And I 364 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:52,679 Speaker 2: use the platform. I mean, it angered a lot of 365 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:56,920 Speaker 2: people that I use the platform of failure to proclaim 366 00:20:57,119 --> 00:21:00,359 Speaker 2: a victory. But for me, victory is not about the 367 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:02,359 Speaker 2: people who get what they want. Victories about the people 368 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 2: who don't know that they are entitled to more, that 369 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:08,959 Speaker 2: they have the right to more. And so you know, 370 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:11,879 Speaker 2: I would go and talk to voters who were denied 371 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:15,160 Speaker 2: the right to voter communities, who felt disenfranchised. I'm like, look, 372 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:17,880 Speaker 2: we won. We made them talk about this, we made 373 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:20,879 Speaker 2: them fight. That's a victory. It may not be the 374 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:25,480 Speaker 2: seminal victory we sought, but it is a valuable one, nonetheless, 375 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:30,359 Speaker 2: because if we only measure our success by one ring 376 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:35,119 Speaker 2: or one championship, we disregard all of the things that 377 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 2: happened in between. And for most of us, we're never 378 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:39,520 Speaker 2: e get that thing, so that thing can't be the 379 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 2: only metric of our progress. 380 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 1: Now about voter suppression. That became a very impertinent fight 381 00:21:56,800 --> 00:22:01,840 Speaker 1: for you, and rightfully so, you were directly affected by it. 382 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:07,000 Speaker 1: But how pervasive is voter suppression in this country? 383 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:13,720 Speaker 2: It is wildly, remarkably and stubbornly pervasive. Voter suppression is this, 384 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:17,639 Speaker 2: can you register and stay on the rolls? Can you 385 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 2: cast a ballot? And does your ballot get counted? That 386 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:26,600 Speaker 2: suppression anytime the state takes action to impede one of 387 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:31,679 Speaker 2: those parts. That is the definition of suppression. Now we 388 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 2: are used to in our historical understanding to see suppression 389 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:42,120 Speaker 2: as someone physically blocking you with guns or billy clubs 390 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:46,000 Speaker 2: or hoses. But voter suppression was also denying women the 391 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:49,240 Speaker 2: right to vote until the nineteen twenties. It was denying 392 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:51,360 Speaker 2: young people the right to vote until nineteen seventy six. 393 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:53,600 Speaker 2: It was denying black people the right to vote. It 394 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 2: was denying Native Americans their citizenship in this country until 395 00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 2: the twentieth century. It is close a precinct in a 396 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:05,399 Speaker 2: county that is twenty miles wide when you don't have 397 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:10,639 Speaker 2: public transportation. It is telling people that they can only 398 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 2: vote if you are a student. If you happen to 399 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:16,480 Speaker 2: have a form of ID, you can't get because the 400 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 2: laws won't allow you to secure it. I don't have 401 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:22,960 Speaker 2: an issue with and people often reduce voter suppression to 402 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 2: voter idea, but let me use that as an example. 403 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:29,800 Speaker 2: Voter identification has always been the law. The question is 404 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 2: not do you have to have ID? It is what 405 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:35,680 Speaker 2: ID do you have to have? And is that ID 406 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:40,360 Speaker 2: reasonably accessible to the vast majority of the population, or 407 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 2: are there rules being put in place to limit that 408 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:48,200 Speaker 2: access to exclude certain communities. If you are a disabled 409 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 2: person in the United States of America. You face voter 410 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:56,280 Speaker 2: suppression in every single election. If you are a person 411 00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 2: of color, if you are young, if you are poor. 412 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:04,160 Speaker 2: There are pediments, and our mission as a democracy should 413 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 2: be to remove those impediments. I want you to vote 414 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:09,080 Speaker 2: for my party when you get in the booth, but 415 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:10,520 Speaker 2: my job is to get you in. 416 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 1: I'm going to ask my girls to what extent they 417 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:17,760 Speaker 1: are cognizant of all of this. You know, I don't 418 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:21,480 Speaker 1: hear it in there in the conversation enough, and it's 419 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 1: making me feel sort of ignorant about that because it's 420 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 1: very easy to maintain that ignorance. 421 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:32,359 Speaker 2: Well, it's designed that way. The system is not designed 422 00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 2: for easy access. Let's remember, at the inception of this nation, 423 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 2: only white men who owned land were actually considered voting citizens. 424 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:46,160 Speaker 2: Every other group that has gotten access to the right 425 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 2: to vote has never actually had a constitutional right to vote. 426 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:53,639 Speaker 2: We simply can't be excluded because of who we are, 427 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:56,600 Speaker 2: what we look like, where we're from. Part of the 428 00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:01,440 Speaker 2: success of suppression is to make it so complicated that 429 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:03,560 Speaker 2: you just get exhausted thinking about it, to make it 430 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 2: seem overwhelming so you don't think you can fight it, 431 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:09,359 Speaker 2: or to make it so insidious you think it's your fault. 432 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:12,000 Speaker 2: The other side is going to say, well, it's not 433 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:14,160 Speaker 2: as bad as they pretend, and these are just common 434 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 2: sense rules. Anytime someone starts with its common sense, it's 435 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:21,800 Speaker 2: because they want you to get distracted and they want 436 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:24,840 Speaker 2: to bring down your temperature. I don't let my temperature 437 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:27,439 Speaker 2: come down because someone tells me I don't have the 438 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:30,879 Speaker 2: right to be riled. But I'm also not going to 439 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:34,000 Speaker 2: be so angry that I lose the ability to think 440 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:35,880 Speaker 2: about what comes next. 441 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:39,680 Speaker 1: You are also, I want to just switch to this other, 442 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:45,280 Speaker 1: very prolific career, which is your writing. You have always written, 443 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:49,840 Speaker 1: you said, and you wrote a number of books, including 444 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:54,199 Speaker 1: several under the pen name Selena Montgomery. I'd love to 445 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:56,360 Speaker 1: know how you picked that name, but also how did 446 00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:00,359 Speaker 1: that career come about writing? 447 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:03,560 Speaker 2: I've always loved writing, and I wrote my first novel 448 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:06,080 Speaker 2: when I was twelve, called A Diary of Angst. My 449 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:08,080 Speaker 2: mother is the only other person who's ever read it. 450 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 2: She had it bound for me when I was in 451 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:11,840 Speaker 2: my thirties as a Christmas present, just to remind me 452 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 2: of just how obnoxious I was as a twelve year old. 453 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 1: Diary of angst come on, like, kosis doesn't even work. 454 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:23,600 Speaker 1: It was not even enough genius. 455 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 2: I believe, I believe the word is insufferable. But so 456 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 2: when I was in law school, I wanted I was 457 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 2: writing a novel based on my ex boyfriend's dissertation. He 458 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 2: was a chemical physicist. I'm like one of five people 459 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:40,080 Speaker 2: other than his board that read it, and I was like, ooh, 460 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 2: he could do all of these really interesting things. He 461 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:46,520 Speaker 2: discovered these chemical properties, and I was expounding on what 462 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 2: it could what could happen. He was like, oh, can't 463 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:50,440 Speaker 2: do any of that. He's like, that's just far fetched. 464 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:52,199 Speaker 2: I'm like, you have no imagination. This is why we 465 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:54,320 Speaker 2: broke up. It was a bad breakup. So in the 466 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 2: book he's actually in prison for the rest of his life. 467 00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:59,560 Speaker 2: That was my petty revenge. But this goes to your 468 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 2: point early about not taking no So I wanted to 469 00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:05,680 Speaker 2: write a spy novel. I used to I loved espionage. 470 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,960 Speaker 2: I used to watch James Bond and you know, I 471 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 2: mentioned General Hospital, Anna Davaine and Robert Scorpio, and I 472 00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 2: really wanted to do a spy novel. But women at 473 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,200 Speaker 2: in the late nineties, publishers did not believe that women 474 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:21,320 Speaker 2: wrote or read spy novels, so there were no espionage 475 00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:24,800 Speaker 2: authors and I was told no, and so I thought, well, 476 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 2: if you're not going to publish it as a spy novel, 477 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:29,159 Speaker 2: I'll just make my spies fall in love and call 478 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:32,399 Speaker 2: it a romance novel. And so I wrote Rules of 479 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 2: Engagement as a romance because instead of taking no, I 480 00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:37,439 Speaker 2: was like, Okay, I'm going to write this book. Someone's 481 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,000 Speaker 2: going to read it. I just have to give it 482 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,520 Speaker 2: a name. And when I decided to write Romance, it 483 00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:45,000 Speaker 2: was the same time I was writing a treatise on 484 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:49,840 Speaker 2: the operational dissonance of the earned income tax exemption, which, yeah, 485 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 2: nobody cares about that. So you can publish romance under 486 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 2: a pseudonym. You cannot publish tax articles under a pseudonym. 487 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:01,520 Speaker 2: And no one wanted to read Romance by Alan Greenspan, 488 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,600 Speaker 2: so I had to come up with a pseudonym. And 489 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:07,680 Speaker 2: I was watching an A and E biography of Elizabeth 490 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:11,200 Speaker 2: Montgomery at like two in the morning, and I loved 491 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:13,680 Speaker 2: her last name, and you know, her evil alter ego 492 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:17,960 Speaker 2: I'm bewitched was Serena, her cousin Samon Serena. I was like, 493 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:20,520 Speaker 2: I don't like Serena, but I like my l so 494 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 2: I became Selena Montgomery, and that's how Selena was born. 495 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 1: I love that, Oh, I love that so much. So 496 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:31,040 Speaker 1: in your new book, Rogue Justice, this is the second 497 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:34,359 Speaker 1: correct it's the second story that's following the adventures of 498 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:39,880 Speaker 1: Avery Keen. Now, how much of yourself is in Avery. 499 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 2: Avery's a lawyer. Avery has a really good memory. Avery's 500 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:47,720 Speaker 2: family grapples with drug addiction, which is something that my 501 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:51,480 Speaker 2: family has dealt with and is an important conversation for me. 502 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 2: I do love chess, and I do like poker and 503 00:28:56,200 --> 00:29:00,480 Speaker 2: card games. I have never been responsible for Aupreme Court 504 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 2: justice in a comatose state, and I have never been 505 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 2: the center of international intrigue and pursued by a nemesis. 506 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 2: So we diverged there. Although some might say some of 507 00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:14,240 Speaker 2: my elections have had. 508 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:18,840 Speaker 1: Some elements a nemesis, I would think it falls under 509 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:19,480 Speaker 1: that category. 510 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:22,760 Speaker 2: Now I love best about Avery. She has these So 511 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:28,000 Speaker 2: Avery solves problems, she uses what she has, she finds 512 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 2: others who can add to it. And so she's got 513 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:34,400 Speaker 2: this group of friends who are emblematic of friends that 514 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 2: I have. And she knows that it's not her job 515 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 2: to fix everything, but it's always her job to do 516 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:43,920 Speaker 2: something that's great. 517 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 1: I mean, it's a great character, and it seems to 518 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:50,440 Speaker 1: me the way you approach your life. And now it 519 00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:54,719 Speaker 1: has been optioned already the two books, probably right, how 520 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:57,400 Speaker 1: much of that, I mean, people don't know this. I 521 00:29:57,640 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 1: have a little bit of an idea of it. But 522 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,800 Speaker 1: how much of of the process or will you be 523 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:02,640 Speaker 1: involved in? 524 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,400 Speaker 2: So I'm a producer, I'm actually right now we're going 525 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:08,720 Speaker 2: through the development process. So I read the notes when 526 00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 2: it comes back from the studio. I'm not the writer. 527 00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 2: The writer is an exceptional young woman. She allows me 528 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 2: to interfere, but I'm respectful of the fact that I'm 529 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:22,680 Speaker 2: not the screenwriter, not the teleplay writer. But I am 530 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 2: the architect of the story in terms of Avery is 531 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:29,200 Speaker 2: going to live for a while. She's got more stories 532 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 2: to tell, and so part of my job in this 533 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:37,000 Speaker 2: process is to both help shape backstory but also to 534 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:39,280 Speaker 2: really think through what is her arc look like? And 535 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:41,440 Speaker 2: it may diverge from the books, but I just want 536 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:43,720 Speaker 2: to make sure that the character on the page and 537 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:47,959 Speaker 2: the character on the television screen come from the same person. 538 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:52,160 Speaker 1: I always like to ask our guests this because the 539 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:54,640 Speaker 1: show is called now What, and it's about those sort 540 00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,280 Speaker 1: of now what moments that make you stop in your 541 00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:00,760 Speaker 1: tracks and really say like, oh God, now, how what 542 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:04,640 Speaker 1: do I do? Are there any now what moments in 543 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:06,680 Speaker 1: your life that stand out? 544 00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:10,920 Speaker 2: Most people would assume a now what moment for me 545 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:16,240 Speaker 2: would come from not winning an election, but those, while important, 546 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 2: you're not entitled to win, and you always have to 547 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:25,200 Speaker 2: prepare yourself for not getting the job. The one for 548 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:29,680 Speaker 2: me that was more seminole was it happened when I 549 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:34,680 Speaker 2: was in college and I broke up with Oh, I 550 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:36,960 Speaker 2: broke up, I broke up nothing, he broke up with me, 551 00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:42,600 Speaker 2: and the rather aggressive insults to me about why we 552 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:44,960 Speaker 2: were breaking up, mainly that I was too ambitious and. 553 00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 1: That's all about him. 554 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:49,960 Speaker 2: Well, but it's stun because you know, you're eighteen nineteen 555 00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:53,400 Speaker 2: and the guy you think you've woven all these fantasies 556 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,680 Speaker 2: around telling you you're not enough. And so I went 557 00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:01,160 Speaker 2: into a computer lab and did this spreadsheet. And people 558 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:03,000 Speaker 2: talk about the spreadsheet because of what's on it, But 559 00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:06,200 Speaker 2: what always matters to me was that in that moment, 560 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:09,640 Speaker 2: instead of buying into his narrative, about who I was. 561 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:14,480 Speaker 2: I decided to write a narrative about what I could be, 562 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:18,080 Speaker 2: And whether I get all of the things that I 563 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:21,600 Speaker 2: am visioned for myself is not the point. Then, Now, 564 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:23,960 Speaker 2: what moment for me is the moment I realized I 565 00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:28,440 Speaker 2: didn't have to be shaped by his sense of my deficits, 566 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:31,040 Speaker 2: that I was going to be shaped by my sense 567 00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:34,600 Speaker 2: of my possibility, and that all of the things I do, 568 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:37,719 Speaker 2: whether I get them or not, is not the point. 569 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:40,800 Speaker 2: The point is do I give my best effort? Do 570 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:44,120 Speaker 2: I try? And to your point about imagination, do I 571 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:50,720 Speaker 2: imagine such an extraordinary world that these things could be true? 572 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:56,320 Speaker 1: That was the incomparable Stacy Abrams. If you're looking for 573 00:32:56,440 --> 00:33:01,320 Speaker 1: a good read, do not miss her latest book, Rogue Justice. 574 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,120 Speaker 1: As for me, I'm taking a few weeks to wrap 575 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:07,600 Speaker 1: up some exciting projects and spend some time with my family, 576 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:10,600 Speaker 1: But I'll be back soon with another batch of new episodes, 577 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:13,560 Speaker 1: So keep an eye out on your podcast feed, and 578 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:18,240 Speaker 1: as always, thank you for listening. Now. What with Burke 579 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:22,200 Speaker 1: Shields is a production of iHeartRadio. Our lead producer and 580 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:26,760 Speaker 1: wonderful showrunner is Julia Weaver. Additional research and editing by 581 00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:32,320 Speaker 1: Darby Masters and Abu zafar Our. Executive producer is Christina Everett. 582 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:35,200 Speaker 1: The show is mixed by Baheed Fraser.