1
00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:03,200
Speaker 1: People are being assured over and over again that women

2
00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:09,080
Speaker 1: are the problem.

3
00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:10,960
Speaker 2: There are no Girls on the Internet. As a production

4
00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:18,520
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative, I'm Bridgie Toad and this

5
00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:23,360
Speaker 2: is there are No Girls on the Internet. Last week,

6
00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:27,040
Speaker 2: Apple and Google Play both took down Andrew Tate's at

7
00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:31,360
Speaker 2: the Real World formerly Hustler's University. Andrew Tate has been

8
00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:34,640
Speaker 2: grifting a generation of young men and boys into making

9
00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:39,080
Speaker 2: him rich by stoking their anxieties, anger, and fears. His

10
00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:42,840
Speaker 2: content is dangerous. But it's not just Tate. An entire

11
00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:46,720
Speaker 2: ecosystem of extremist content creators in what's commonly known as

12
00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:50,640
Speaker 2: the manosphere are gamifying the Internet to line their pockets

13
00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:53,159
Speaker 2: and putting all of us at risk in the process.

14
00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:58,480
Speaker 1: So the manosphere is this umbrella term that a lot

15
00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:04,080
Speaker 1: of different misogynists, activists, commentators kind of fall unders, whether

16
00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:07,880
Speaker 1: that be someone like a men's rights activists, a pickup artist,

17
00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:13,480
Speaker 1: a blogger, a podcaster, pretty much anyone whose main deal

18
00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:17,640
Speaker 1: is misogyny that falls under the manosphere.

19
00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:22,600
Speaker 2: Justin Horowitz has been researching viral extremist influencers with Media

20
00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:26,280
Speaker 2: Matters since twenty twenty, so a lot of this content

21
00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:30,200
Speaker 2: really seems to prey on the fears in vulnerabilities of

22
00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:33,360
Speaker 2: young men, like you're not working out as hard as

23
00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:35,160
Speaker 2: all the other men around you, or you're never going

24
00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:36,600
Speaker 2: to get a date, or you spend a lot of

25
00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:39,720
Speaker 2: time alone at home instead of being out. Why is that?

26
00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:45,679
Speaker 1: I think that that is a great gateway to get

27
00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:49,800
Speaker 1: to talk about misogyny and hate and to push extremism.

28
00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:53,760
Speaker 1: So something like fitness content or something like whether that

29
00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:57,120
Speaker 1: be gambling or even gaming some of these manosphere influencers

30
00:01:57,240 --> 00:01:59,960
Speaker 1: are involved in. It is just a way to get

31
00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:03,640
Speaker 1: people to log on to subscribe to their content so

32
00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:07,960
Speaker 1: that they can push further extremism and further misogyny down

33
00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:11,120
Speaker 1: the road. And kind of going off what you just said,

34
00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:15,000
Speaker 1: a lot of these manosphere influencers do talk about sort

35
00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:19,080
Speaker 1: of the real fears that men are experiencing, so things

36
00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:25,600
Speaker 1: like financial instability or rejection dating advice. There's not a

37
00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:29,440
Speaker 1: lot of influencers that speak to these real fears of

38
00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:32,359
Speaker 1: young men that are outside the manosphere. So I think

39
00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:37,200
Speaker 1: that young men are particularly interested in these influencers because

40
00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:39,840
Speaker 1: there's not that many to choose from, and when these

41
00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:42,560
Speaker 1: are the ones that are available, that's who they'll that's

42
00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:43,920
Speaker 1: who they'll spend their time listening to.

43
00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:48,560
Speaker 2: Unfortunately, that's such a bummer because there are men and

44
00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:52,880
Speaker 2: women and all kinds of folks who make content about

45
00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:56,080
Speaker 2: like for young people, right, But the content that we

46
00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:58,680
Speaker 2: get that we see amplified on social media is never

47
00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:01,959
Speaker 2: the person who's making a podcast digging into the doing

48
00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:06,000
Speaker 2: a thoughtful dig int about like the nuances of dating

49
00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:08,200
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty three for young men, or the realities

50
00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:11,360
Speaker 2: of economic stability like that would be content that people

51
00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:13,160
Speaker 2: would be looking for. I think there's like a like

52
00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:16,720
Speaker 2: a thirst for it, and there are people making thoughtful

53
00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:19,640
Speaker 2: content about that, but they certainly do not enjoy the

54
00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:22,600
Speaker 2: exposure or the reach, or the or the platforms like

55
00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:25,399
Speaker 2: people making Manosphere content. Why is that?

56
00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:30,280
Speaker 1: I think that a lot of the manosphere content oftentimes

57
00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:33,160
Speaker 1: the first and like the first thing people are seeing

58
00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:37,480
Speaker 1: are these very viral moments. So what they're seeing are

59
00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:42,119
Speaker 1: these TikTok clips of someone saying something that is extremely misogynist.

60
00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:44,800
Speaker 1: But maybe they'll have someone that is there to give

61
00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:47,320
Speaker 1: a retort. But that's just one way to get people

62
00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:50,000
Speaker 1: sort of involved or get their eyes on it. So

63
00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:55,320
Speaker 1: these Manosphere these manosphere influencers, they just have a they're

64
00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:58,160
Speaker 1: honestly very They're very good at the Internet. And it's

65
00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:01,360
Speaker 1: the same way that Andrew Tape was able to, you know,

66
00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:04,360
Speaker 1: make sure that everybody on the Internet knew who he was.

67
00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:07,160
Speaker 1: You know, he was the most googled person last year.

68
00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:10,640
Speaker 1: They're just very good at being able to play the

69
00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:12,720
Speaker 1: Internet game, play the virality game.

70
00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:18,039
Speaker 2: These creators are gamifying our Internet landscape by cranking out

71
00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:22,280
Speaker 2: moments designed for social media virality and incentivizing their followers

72
00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:25,400
Speaker 2: to share them online. As part of Andrew Tate's real

73
00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:29,159
Speaker 2: world app, Tape promises that subscribers who pay fifty dollars

74
00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:32,040
Speaker 2: a month for the app can make millions by reposting

75
00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:35,120
Speaker 2: his clips on social media sites. That's why platforms like

76
00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:39,360
Speaker 2: TikTok are flooded with his toxic, harmful messages. More and

77
00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:41,960
Speaker 2: more of these creators, like the Fresh and Fit podcast

78
00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:45,240
Speaker 2: and the Whatever podcast are doing similar things. It's like

79
00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:46,919
Speaker 2: an ecosystem of toxicity.

80
00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:50,640
Speaker 1: Honestly, it's really impressive and it's kind of scary as well.

81
00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:55,000
Speaker 2: It is scary, especially with Andrew Tate. I mean, what

82
00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:57,839
Speaker 2: like something that I see a lot with when it

83
00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:02,120
Speaker 2: comes to these podcasts. I used in quotes because as

84
00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:05,520
Speaker 2: a podcaster, I have some like issues with how they're

85
00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:08,040
Speaker 2: pod Well, well that's either here nor there. But you know,

86
00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:11,760
Speaker 2: it'll be these viral moments where they'll get you know,

87
00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:13,760
Speaker 2: like Fresh and Fit does this a lot. Well, they'll

88
00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:16,440
Speaker 2: where they'll they'll have a black woman on the show

89
00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:20,280
Speaker 2: seemingly just to degrade and humiliate her. And maybe this

90
00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:23,240
Speaker 2: woman will shrink and sit silently while they do this,

91
00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:26,520
Speaker 2: maybe she will say something back, maybe she will storm out.

92
00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:30,560
Speaker 2: But that clip on social media will get such big engagement.

93
00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:34,640
Speaker 2: And even if you are someone who finds these views

94
00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:36,919
Speaker 2: a borrent, you're still looking at them. They're still getting

95
00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:38,720
Speaker 2: your eyeballs. Is that sort of what you mean by

96
00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:41,560
Speaker 2: the way they're able to play social media algorithms to

97
00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:45,320
Speaker 2: ensure that their content is always getting that high engagement,

98
00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:46,760
Speaker 2: and thus we're going to see more and more of it.

99
00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:49,920
Speaker 1: Yes, that is exactly what I mean. They are able

100
00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:53,200
Speaker 1: to find that ten second clip of them degrading someone

101
00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:55,880
Speaker 1: or making sure that they look a fool, just so

102
00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:58,039
Speaker 1: that they can get people's eyes on them and then

103
00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:00,640
Speaker 1: give them a follow, And then you go to their

104
00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:02,919
Speaker 1: actual podcast and you see it's three hours long of

105
00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:06,040
Speaker 1: horrible misogyny. Like I said, it is really just like

106
00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:08,680
Speaker 1: a gateway. Some of these viral clips are just a

107
00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:12,480
Speaker 1: gateway to get people more involved in the manosphere community.

108
00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:15,039
Speaker 1: And I saw it, like you said, with Fresh and Fit.

109
00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:20,039
Speaker 1: There are other podcasts like the whatever dating podcast huge

110
00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:23,680
Speaker 1: on TikTok. My colleague Sophie and I recently did a

111
00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:25,960
Speaker 1: piece on them as well. It's pretty much a Fresh

112
00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:29,160
Speaker 1: and Fit knockoff. But you know, it's just they are

113
00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:32,919
Speaker 1: on twist on it. But they really got our attention

114
00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:35,840
Speaker 1: at Media Matters because of their viral moments that we

115
00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:37,880
Speaker 1: were seeing on TikTok that was just popping up in

116
00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:38,839
Speaker 1: our feeds.

117
00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:42,520
Speaker 2: God, it's interesting that these are often like dating or

118
00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:46,120
Speaker 2: lifestyle podcasts because I don't know how to put this,

119
00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:50,400
Speaker 2: but I had so. I was home over the weekend

120
00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:52,279
Speaker 2: and I was spending time with a family member who

121
00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:56,520
Speaker 2: I was really surprised to learn enjoys Andrew take content

122
00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:58,000
Speaker 2: and I was like, what is it that you like

123
00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:00,520
Speaker 2: about him? He was like, well, I just see the

124
00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:02,920
Speaker 2: clips on social media, like the clips on Instagram where

125
00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:05,320
Speaker 2: he's driving a Bugatti and he's talking about how important

126
00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:07,200
Speaker 2: it is to grind. And he was saying, how like

127
00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:10,040
Speaker 2: nobody's really giving that message today that it's important to grind.

128
00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:11,360
Speaker 2: I was like, well, I don't know about that, but

129
00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:12,880
Speaker 2: and then I was like, oh, so do you listen

130
00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:15,080
Speaker 2: to his podcast tape speech and he was like no,

131
00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:17,280
Speaker 2: I tried to. It's like three hours long of him

132
00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:19,880
Speaker 2: rambling and like, none of that appeals to me. And

133
00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:23,920
Speaker 2: I found it so interesting that this person in my life,

134
00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:26,640
Speaker 2: who I think of as like a smart with it person,

135
00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:30,040
Speaker 2: was taken by these short clips to the point where

136
00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:33,160
Speaker 2: they would defend this person not having dived deeper into

137
00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:35,520
Speaker 2: any of their longer form content or and had tried

138
00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:37,560
Speaker 2: to but could not get through it, Like, is that

139
00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:38,360
Speaker 2: by design?

140
00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:42,240
Speaker 1: I do think it's by design. I think that parasocial

141
00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:47,160
Speaker 1: relationships with these Manosphere influencers are created very easily. I

142
00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:50,000
Speaker 1: don't think that it takes a lot of content for

143
00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:52,640
Speaker 1: you to feel a connection with some of these influencers.

144
00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:55,480
Speaker 1: And I don't think that is specific to the Manosphere.

145
00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:58,080
Speaker 1: I think that can happen with any sort of TikToker

146
00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:01,280
Speaker 1: or someone you're following online. But I think that what

147
00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:04,240
Speaker 1: a lot of these manuscript fear influencers are trying to

148
00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:07,800
Speaker 1: do is they want you to become who they are, right,

149
00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:10,080
Speaker 1: so they say, I'm an alpha male. You want to

150
00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:12,600
Speaker 1: be a high value man. And what you want to

151
00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:14,800
Speaker 1: do is you want to become a high value man,

152
00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:17,760
Speaker 1: you should be an alpha male. So what people are

153
00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:20,400
Speaker 1: doing is they're looking up to these people. It becomes

154
00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:23,640
Speaker 1: very very easy to defend someone when you want to

155
00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:24,040
Speaker 1: be them.

156
00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:27,440
Speaker 2: Creators like Andrew Tate are notorious for being really good

157
00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:30,520
Speaker 2: at getting around bands On social media platforms, content that

158
00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:34,040
Speaker 2: uses dog whistles or codes are not always detected, and

159
00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:37,400
Speaker 2: even when individual creators are banned, their followers can still

160
00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:40,200
Speaker 2: post their content. This is how take gets around being

161
00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:42,880
Speaker 2: banned from pretty much every social media platform out there

162
00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:47,000
Speaker 2: except Twitter. When Elon Musk took over Twitter, he let

163
00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:49,640
Speaker 2: Andrew Tate back on the platform, and the two sometimes

164
00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:52,920
Speaker 2: publicly interact. And when Musk was touting payments for people

165
00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:56,920
Speaker 2: who post on Twitter, Andrew Tate proudly bragged that he

166
00:08:57,000 --> 00:09:00,520
Speaker 2: got twenty thousand dollars. What's also interesting to me is

167
00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:02,440
Speaker 2: the role that you say social media plays in this.

168
00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:05,120
Speaker 2: Some of these influencers like Andrew Tait, who was famously

169
00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:07,760
Speaker 2: banned from like all platforms, like I don't even think

170
00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:11,199
Speaker 2: I don't even think he's on Pinterest, like and then

171
00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:14,000
Speaker 2: he was famously not just let back on when Elon

172
00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:16,600
Speaker 2: Musk took over at Twitter, but as of last week

173
00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:19,920
Speaker 2: being paid like twenty thousand dollars to stay on Twitter

174
00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:23,120
Speaker 2: and make content. Other influencers that you've that you've written about,

175
00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:26,240
Speaker 2: like sneak O. These are people who have technically been

176
00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:29,880
Speaker 2: banned from platforms, yet I see their content all the time.

177
00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:30,920
Speaker 2: What's going on there?

178
00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:34,960
Speaker 1: Honestly, it's a lot of bannovation, I'll say that. So

179
00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:37,800
Speaker 1: a lot of these tech platforms they are not good

180
00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:41,000
Speaker 1: at knowing who is evading their bands, and you know,

181
00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:44,200
Speaker 1: people at Media Matters we write about these kind of bannovations,

182
00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:47,760
Speaker 1: but it's also about some of these influencers are going

183
00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:51,840
Speaker 1: to these like all platforms we're talking about like Rumble

184
00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:55,720
Speaker 1: of course, Parlor when that was a thing, Gab, all

185
00:09:55,760 --> 00:10:00,880
Speaker 1: of the Twitter knockoffs, all Twitter, the of those. But

186
00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:06,000
Speaker 1: people are bringing their audiences from these mainstream platforms. Let's

187
00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:08,680
Speaker 1: say sneak O was brought back on Twitter, he can

188
00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:11,079
Speaker 1: tell all of his Twitter followers to go follow him

189
00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:14,040
Speaker 1: on Rumble, which is like a you know, knock off

190
00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:17,679
Speaker 1: YouTube pretty much for the alright. And what they can

191
00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:21,000
Speaker 1: do is they can build huge audiences on these platforms

192
00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:23,920
Speaker 1: and then they can find other influencers that are on Rumble,

193
00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:26,120
Speaker 1: and then it just kind of becomes this rabbit hole

194
00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:29,199
Speaker 1: that people go down. Once you're on Rumble, you can

195
00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:33,440
Speaker 1: find all these other Rumble influencers. So it's it's really

196
00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:36,079
Speaker 1: about a way to get like all of your followers

197
00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:38,880
Speaker 1: into one place. And like, these influencers are really good

198
00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:41,400
Speaker 1: at that. They're really good at getting their followers to

199
00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:42,400
Speaker 1: do what they want them to do.

200
00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:45,760
Speaker 2: It's it's I mean, I hate to give them any credit,

201
00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:48,600
Speaker 2: but it is a very effective strategy because I see

202
00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:51,120
Speaker 2: them all the time and I'm always like, I thought

203
00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:53,120
Speaker 2: they banned you, I thought they got rid of you.

204
00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:55,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, They're like a pesky little bug that you just

205
00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:56,800
Speaker 1: cannot get rid of.

206
00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:00,880
Speaker 2: It's not just Andrew Tate. More and more content creators

207
00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:04,440
Speaker 2: are making similar content in Andrew Tate's image. Some of

208
00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:07,400
Speaker 2: them like Sneako, who got to start making Call of

209
00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:10,520
Speaker 2: Duty content on YouTube before jumping to the platform. Rumble,

210
00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:13,080
Speaker 2: you might not have heard of. But even if you

211
00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:15,600
Speaker 2: haven't heard of them. It's likely that your little brother

212
00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:18,839
Speaker 2: or a little cousin probably has. We talk a lot

213
00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:22,720
Speaker 2: about Tate, and rightly so, he's like the most googled person.

214
00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:25,080
Speaker 2: But you've done a really great job of mapping out

215
00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:28,760
Speaker 2: the entire ecosystem of the of men's rights influencers. Who

216
00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:30,920
Speaker 2: are some of the major players that folks might not know.

217
00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:36,920
Speaker 1: So we talked about sneak O. He's definitely He kind

218
00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:38,840
Speaker 1: of started as like a man on the street interview

219
00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:42,480
Speaker 1: type of TikToker, doing kind of YouTube videos when he

220
00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:45,400
Speaker 1: was younger, and then made his way into the manosphere.

221
00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:48,480
Speaker 1: Another person that I've been writing about recently who have

222
00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:50,920
Speaker 1: actually noticed has gotten a lot of pick up recently

223
00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:55,000
Speaker 1: was h Pearl Davis. She goes by just pearly things online.

224
00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:58,720
Speaker 1: She's a men's rights influencer or I guess she would

225
00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:02,320
Speaker 1: just call herself a manospear influencer of some sort, and

226
00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:04,760
Speaker 1: she's been getting a lot of attention recently as the

227
00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:08,360
Speaker 1: female Andrew Tate. Who else have I written about? Let's

228
00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:11,439
Speaker 1: see Aiden Ross, who was one of the biggest Twitch streamers.

229
00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:13,720
Speaker 1: He recently has moved over to kick which is kind

230
00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:17,600
Speaker 1: of a twitch knockoff that's owned by Steak, which is

231
00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:23,599
Speaker 1: a crypto gambling organization. And then there's the Whatever podcast,

232
00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:25,280
Speaker 1: as I talked about before, which is kind of like

233
00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:29,800
Speaker 1: fresh and fit Jonathan Hogwood, who's another men's rights activist. Honestly,

234
00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:33,719
Speaker 1: there are so many Andrew Tait knockoffs that they are

235
00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:36,880
Speaker 1: almost hard to map out. At this point, I feel

236
00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:40,360
Speaker 1: like every time I jump online, I'm finding someone else

237
00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:43,760
Speaker 1: that is saying the same thing to their followers, and

238
00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:46,640
Speaker 1: it is just full blown misogyny. And you know, I'll

239
00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:50,160
Speaker 1: check one week and they'll have a significant amount of followers,

240
00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:52,640
Speaker 1: and then I'll check their follower count the next week

241
00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:55,360
Speaker 1: and they've just blown up. These people are just gaining

242
00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:58,000
Speaker 1: followers at like very rapid speeds.

243
00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:00,560
Speaker 2: Let me ask you this, So I've known the same

244
00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:03,680
Speaker 2: thing that a lot of these influencers. They'll start by

245
00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:06,760
Speaker 2: doing funny pranks or man on the street or video

246
00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:10,640
Speaker 2: game live streaming, and then kind of dovetail into misogyny

247
00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:14,160
Speaker 2: and then some of them will like explode. How much

248
00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:18,280
Speaker 2: of that do you think is just kind of playing

249
00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:20,680
Speaker 2: to what works, like being like, oh, when I was

250
00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:24,320
Speaker 2: just doing X, I wasn't really getting traction when I

251
00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:29,360
Speaker 2: started dipping into misogyny, anti semitism, conspiracy theories, women and

252
00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:32,840
Speaker 2: Jewish people are the root of your problems. Women don't

253
00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:35,560
Speaker 2: deserve rights. I got a lot more traction. I'm going

254
00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:37,199
Speaker 2: to keep working. What works? How much? If it? Do

255
00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:38,920
Speaker 2: you think is just like a marketing tactic.

256
00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:41,960
Speaker 1: I think you've hit the nail on the head. I

257
00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:45,840
Speaker 1: really think that misogyny gets clicks. I think that hating

258
00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:50,280
Speaker 1: women gets clicks. I think being an anti Semite unfortunately

259
00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:54,240
Speaker 1: gets clicks as well. I think that these are definitely

260
00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:57,199
Speaker 1: strategies that people can turn to when they've run out

261
00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:00,640
Speaker 1: of options. You know, doing a prank video, being a TikToker,

262
00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:03,480
Speaker 1: depending on your content will only get you so far.

263
00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:07,160
Speaker 1: And this is definitely a road that people see. And

264
00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:11,360
Speaker 1: not only that, but it's also profitable. So the manosphere

265
00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:15,480
Speaker 1: in general, there's oftentimes a monetary aspect. So what are

266
00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:19,480
Speaker 1: these people selling. They're always selling something, whether that's masculinity

267
00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:24,360
Speaker 1: lessons or dating advice, advice on how to go viral,

268
00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:29,360
Speaker 1: anything like that. You know, the people that are in it,

269
00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:31,960
Speaker 1: they are in it for themselves. They are not really

270
00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:35,120
Speaker 1: trying to help these men become high value men or

271
00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:36,920
Speaker 1: whatever they say that they're trying to help them become

272
00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:40,480
Speaker 1: They are trying to make money, get followers, and market themselves.

273
00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:43,040
Speaker 2: I mean, it's a grift, it's a scam like that.

274
00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:47,520
Speaker 2: That's the thing that really it troubles me. Like this

275
00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:50,560
Speaker 2: is when I was having this long, long as debate

276
00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:53,720
Speaker 2: with my family member last week this past weekend about

277
00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:57,000
Speaker 2: Andrew Tate, I was surprised that he was not able

278
00:14:57,000 --> 00:14:59,600
Speaker 2: to see what a clear and obvious grift this person

279
00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:03,160
Speaker 2: is running. This person is telling is stoking on the

280
00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:08,000
Speaker 2: fears and vulnerabilities which may be very real of the

281
00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:12,320
Speaker 2: community of young men who legitimately feel like forgotten, unseen.

282
00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:16,440
Speaker 2: He is stoking those things to enrich himself personally. And

283
00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:20,200
Speaker 2: I guess, like, how do people not see it for

284
00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:21,720
Speaker 2: the grift that it is, Like, how does it? How

285
00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:24,120
Speaker 2: is it so effective? But it's like, clearly he is

286
00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:26,440
Speaker 2: trying to take your money. He doesn't actually care about

287
00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:30,400
Speaker 2: you being a high value man or actually like seeing

288
00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:33,120
Speaker 2: you and the vulnerabilities that you have. He's interested in

289
00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:34,440
Speaker 2: fattening his pockets.

290
00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:36,960
Speaker 1: I think then it goes back to what I was

291
00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:39,960
Speaker 1: saying before, where there are really just so few influencers

292
00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:42,640
Speaker 1: that are speaking to these fears of young men that

293
00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:46,440
Speaker 1: it is like it is completely oh, like the the

294
00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:48,440
Speaker 1: idea that people are doing it for the money, it's

295
00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:52,520
Speaker 1: just overshadowed. I think people are people become extremely cutly,

296
00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:57,800
Speaker 1: they become such committed followers to these influencers that you know,

297
00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:00,360
Speaker 1: they look past the bad they look past the money

298
00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:04,280
Speaker 1: that they're giving, they look past the horrible misogyny. And

299
00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:06,640
Speaker 1: some people, when they are fans, they know that what

300
00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:09,320
Speaker 1: these people are saying is wrong and dangerous and putting

301
00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:13,160
Speaker 1: like the real lives of women in particular, like they're

302
00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:17,360
Speaker 1: making a lot, they're making women's lives more dangerous because

303
00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:20,480
Speaker 1: they think that they're helping them in some way. They're

304
00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:23,080
Speaker 1: trying to like improve their lives and for people when

305
00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:25,720
Speaker 1: if they haven't had someone to talk to, or they

306
00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:28,080
Speaker 1: haven't had someone that felt like there was really like

307
00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:31,720
Speaker 1: speaking to their soul, like they're willing to look past

308
00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:33,680
Speaker 1: those things, and it really.

309
00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:38,800
Speaker 2: Makes me sad because what they're selling them is so shitty.

310
00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:43,960
Speaker 2: Like somebody who made good content about women and men

311
00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:46,840
Speaker 2: and gender and sexuality and dating in twenty twenty three,

312
00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:51,360
Speaker 2: someone who was actually meaningfully seeing these people and speaking

313
00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:53,520
Speaker 2: to their concerns I think would be great. I think

314
00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:56,200
Speaker 2: what makes me upset is that they flood the space

315
00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:59,080
Speaker 2: with such garbage, so people who actually are making that

316
00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:01,440
Speaker 2: content really can't get a foothold because who's going to

317
00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:03,560
Speaker 2: listen to somebody who is making a nuanced point about

318
00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:06,760
Speaker 2: gender and dating when you can watch this very exciting

319
00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:10,679
Speaker 2: video of a black woman's being degraded and then storming

320
00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:13,280
Speaker 2: off of a podcast set right, and you know, I

321
00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:20,840
Speaker 2: think it really creates this false world where in heterosexual relationships,

322
00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:24,040
Speaker 2: men and women are constantly at odds that like, people

323
00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:27,320
Speaker 2: don't have relationships that are based on mutual respect, seeing

324
00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:29,840
Speaker 2: each other, wanting to support each other. The only kind

325
00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:32,040
Speaker 2: of relationship that exists between a man and a woman

326
00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:35,320
Speaker 2: is one that is built on, you know, breaking the woman,

327
00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:38,520
Speaker 2: her being submissive, you being dominant, when in reality, people

328
00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:42,159
Speaker 2: who have healthy relationships are not obsessed with the particulars

329
00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:44,000
Speaker 2: in this way, Like this is not like I don't

330
00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:45,879
Speaker 2: know anybody who has a relationship like that, and that

331
00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:49,040
Speaker 2: is certainly not a relationship to strive for. Yet they

332
00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:51,720
Speaker 2: are presenting to a whole generation of young people, but

333
00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:54,320
Speaker 2: this is the only kind of relationship that you can

334
00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:55,760
Speaker 2: have and it's just not true.

335
00:17:56,920 --> 00:17:59,119
Speaker 1: I mean traditional gender roles. I mean that that just

336
00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:02,239
Speaker 1: kind of oftentimes will take out the whole part of

337
00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:05,640
Speaker 1: like important communication. You know, if you if your job

338
00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:07,199
Speaker 1: is to do this, my job is to do that,

339
00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:10,760
Speaker 1: and like that's how it's gonna be. Oftentimes, it's just

340
00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:15,800
Speaker 1: not gonna work that way. It'll just it's so outdated

341
00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:20,119
Speaker 1: the gender roles that they're pushing that it just, like

342
00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:22,120
Speaker 1: you said, it doesn't really make sense and it doesn't work.

343
00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:25,439
Speaker 1: I'd wish that I could like point to more like

344
00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:29,240
Speaker 1: influencers that are creating content about dating and that are

345
00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:31,720
Speaker 1: kind of creating content that would be kind of the

346
00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:34,919
Speaker 1: opposite of manosphere content. But like, off the top of

347
00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:36,960
Speaker 1: my head, I can't think of any obviously because I

348
00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:40,840
Speaker 1: work in this space. But it's it's it's it's just

349
00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:43,800
Speaker 1: sad to see that. It feels like when men are

350
00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:46,679
Speaker 1: looking for a role model or someone to look up to,

351
00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:50,520
Speaker 1: it just feels like there's just one type of role

352
00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:52,359
Speaker 1: model online that they can find.

353
00:18:55,520 --> 00:19:10,399
Speaker 2: Let's take a quick break at our back. It's not

354
00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:14,200
Speaker 2: just men. There are women creating misogynistic content on social

355
00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:18,040
Speaker 2: media too. While Andrew Tate was in custody being investigated

356
00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:22,080
Speaker 2: for running a trafficking ring in Romania. H Pearl Davis,

357
00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:26,360
Speaker 2: or just Pearly Things filled the gap and spiked in popularity,

358
00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:30,720
Speaker 2: sometimes called the female Andrew Tate. Business Insider reported that

359
00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:34,080
Speaker 2: Pearl's YouTube audience grew fifty percent in the three months

360
00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:37,080
Speaker 2: since Tate was detained, and that our subscriber base jumped

361
00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:40,080
Speaker 2: from around eight hundred thousand to one point three million

362
00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:43,600
Speaker 2: while Tate was in custody. On her merch store, Pearl

363
00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:46,159
Speaker 2: sells shirts that say women shouldn't vote.

364
00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:49,159
Speaker 1: I think you would actually be surprised. I think that

365
00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:52,520
Speaker 1: there is a small sector within the manosphere where there

366
00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:57,160
Speaker 1: are women viewing extreme misogyny against other women. I think

367
00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:01,960
Speaker 1: that men in particular think that if a woman says it,

368
00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:04,960
Speaker 1: they can repeat it. If a woman is talking bad

369
00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:08,080
Speaker 1: about women and saying extreme misogyny, they can just say

370
00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:09,520
Speaker 1: it more casually, almost.

371
00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:10,639
Speaker 2: You know.

372
00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:13,120
Speaker 1: I've been following Pearl for quite a while. I feel

373
00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:14,840
Speaker 1: like I've been following her since she was just a

374
00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:18,160
Speaker 1: TikToker and she was just constantly getting banned on TikTok,

375
00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:21,600
Speaker 1: And now I'm seeing articles written about her within really

376
00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:24,000
Speaker 1: the last week where people are saying she's the new

377
00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:27,760
Speaker 1: female Andrew Tape, and I think that part of it.

378
00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:31,159
Speaker 1: This is just my opinion. I think that the media

379
00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:33,360
Speaker 1: is picking up on her because they like to see

380
00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:37,040
Speaker 1: women attack each other. I think that is you know,

381
00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:41,000
Speaker 1: when you have someone like just pearly things talking bad

382
00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:43,160
Speaker 1: about women, they're like, oh, yeah, this is definitely something

383
00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:45,600
Speaker 1: we should cover, but we're not talking about the actual

384
00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:50,000
Speaker 1: reality of it. Like I said before, that you know,

385
00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:54,439
Speaker 1: her dangerous misogyny is still putting the lives of women

386
00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:57,920
Speaker 1: in danger. You know, it's just as bad as something

387
00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:00,320
Speaker 1: that Andrew Tate was saying. You know, it's just out

388
00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:01,280
Speaker 1: of someone else's mouth.

389
00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:04,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've noticed that too. Like another kind of like

390
00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:08,560
Speaker 2: right wing influencer type, Candice Owen, people love it when

391
00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:11,800
Speaker 2: she says something bad about black people because she's a

392
00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:14,480
Speaker 2: black woman, and so like, I do think there's something

393
00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:20,439
Speaker 2: that like is even outside of these right wing media circles,

394
00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:25,000
Speaker 2: in more traditional or legacy media, I think that there

395
00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:29,600
Speaker 2: is something just irresistible about that framing of like, well,

396
00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:32,240
Speaker 2: this woman doesn't think that women should have rights, and

397
00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:34,800
Speaker 2: she's a woman and she's saying it. Like, I think

398
00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:38,520
Speaker 2: you're absolutely right that there's something they've identified that is

399
00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:42,000
Speaker 2: clicky or buzzy about that, and it'll always make headlines.

400
00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:44,840
Speaker 1: It's the same thing about when you have like this

401
00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:48,840
Speaker 1: group Gayze against groomers attacking the LGBT community. You know,

402
00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:51,399
Speaker 1: it's like, well, they're getting all of this media pickup

403
00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:55,480
Speaker 1: just because they're queer people attacking other queer people. I

404
00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:57,119
Speaker 1: feel like it kind of falls in kind of the

405
00:21:57,160 --> 00:21:57,960
Speaker 1: same formula.

406
00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:02,320
Speaker 2: There another hallmark of this kind of content the grind

407
00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:05,480
Speaker 2: set mentality. The grindset is kind of a catch all

408
00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:08,479
Speaker 2: for all of the trades and interests supposedly embodied by

409
00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:12,159
Speaker 2: the high value alpha male. So when creators like Andrew

410
00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:15,000
Speaker 2: Tate or Fresh and Fit all for their followers paid

411
00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:18,320
Speaker 2: coaching to become these high value men. It runs the

412
00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:22,600
Speaker 2: gamut from content about fitness or real estate, stocks and cryptocurrency.

413
00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:24,679
Speaker 2: It might seem kind of all over the place to

414
00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:28,320
Speaker 2: an outsider, but they're selling the shortcut to an entire lifestyle.

415
00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:31,720
Speaker 2: Something that I've noticed about the content of folks like

416
00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:35,240
Speaker 2: Fresh and Fit Andrew Tat especially, is it so much

417
00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:37,960
Speaker 2: of the topics are all over the place, Like they

418
00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:41,480
Speaker 2: talk a lot about crypto, which I always found so interesting.

419
00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:44,880
Speaker 2: Is it just that crypto is sort of synonymous with

420
00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:47,840
Speaker 2: young people who are very much online and they're just

421
00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:50,000
Speaker 2: trying to give them what they want or there's something

422
00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:51,200
Speaker 2: else going on there.

423
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:55,040
Speaker 1: You know. I think crypto trading is like part of

424
00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:57,639
Speaker 1: the grind set, right, So it's like, what are we

425
00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:00,560
Speaker 1: doing to make money? How can we make money fastest

426
00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:03,119
Speaker 1: way possible? And how can we do it efficiently and

427
00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:06,000
Speaker 1: be alpha males while doing it. So I just feel

428
00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:09,159
Speaker 1: like cryptocurrency kind of falls into the world of the

429
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:13,120
Speaker 1: manosphere because it's all about doing something quickly and doing

430
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:16,560
Speaker 1: something big. I think those are just two aspects of

431
00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:19,639
Speaker 1: the manosphere that are just like, you know, you can

432
00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:23,880
Speaker 1: kind of apply that to like anything, making money, meeting girls, dating,

433
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,280
Speaker 1: and I think cryptocurrency, you know, I think it's just

434
00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:28,600
Speaker 1: hot and trendy, and I think that's just kind of

435
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:30,680
Speaker 1: like where it's fallen recently.

436
00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:32,760
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I love how you put that that

437
00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:35,560
Speaker 2: it's just doing something. It's the grindset of doing something

438
00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,880
Speaker 2: quick and big. I think that that's something that all

439
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,600
Speaker 2: of this content kind of has in common, this idea

440
00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:45,400
Speaker 2: that there is a cheat code to life, that there's

441
00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:47,520
Speaker 2: a cheat code that's going to get you rich. There's

442
00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:49,440
Speaker 2: a cheat code that's going to get you fit, there's

443
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:52,399
Speaker 2: a cheat code that's going to get you beloved by women,

444
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:57,720
Speaker 2: sexual prowess, social like, social power. You can just gamify

445
00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:01,280
Speaker 2: it and if you have that figured it out, you

446
00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:02,719
Speaker 2: just don't have the right cheat code. Like, I think

447
00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:04,280
Speaker 2: that it's all kind of wrapped up in that.

448
00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:07,560
Speaker 1: I really like that term cheat code. That's not something

449
00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:10,119
Speaker 1: I've used in this, but I think that, you know,

450
00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:12,320
Speaker 1: the whole idea of the red pill, so being like

451
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,440
Speaker 1: women are the root of all evil, you know, understanding

452
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:18,840
Speaker 1: that women are the reason I'm not financially stable, women

453
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:20,840
Speaker 1: are the reason I'm not dating the women are the

454
00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:22,760
Speaker 1: reason of so and so and so and so for

455
00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:26,560
Speaker 1: whatever you know, poor man's problems he has. I think

456
00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:29,280
Speaker 1: that that is also sort of a mental cheat code

457
00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:31,879
Speaker 1: to be like, these are the reasons I'm not happy,

458
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:34,399
Speaker 1: you know, it's because of women. And I think that

459
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:37,480
Speaker 1: that's just kind of another way to sort of understand

460
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,640
Speaker 1: the framing when it comes to just like the mentality

461
00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:40,960
Speaker 1: of it.

462
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:43,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, I think back to when I

463
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:47,680
Speaker 2: was a young person going through my first breakup. I

464
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:50,399
Speaker 2: just like all most young people do. I had like

465
00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:54,880
Speaker 2: one bad breakup that sort of defined part of my life,

466
00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:59,000
Speaker 2: and what I turned to was like the Cure records

467
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:04,119
Speaker 2: and really bad poetry. What makes me sad now is

468
00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:09,280
Speaker 2: that there is this entire, well oiled digital machine that

469
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:12,639
Speaker 2: will when they find a vulnerable young person who is

470
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 2: in that moment of like, oh you're you're heartbroken, they

471
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:17,760
Speaker 2: will find that young person and be like, oh, the

472
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:19,720
Speaker 2: reason why you feel this way, think about how bad

473
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:22,439
Speaker 2: you feel, it's because of women, right like, And you

474
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,080
Speaker 2: can build an entire identity and ethos around the fact

475
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:27,680
Speaker 2: that women are the source for your pain, for why

476
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:29,720
Speaker 2: you're not feeling good, while you're not succeeding, while you

477
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:33,520
Speaker 2: don't have money, whatever whatever the thing is. And you know,

478
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:35,840
Speaker 2: I don't think I don't think this kind of content

479
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,920
Speaker 2: is new, But what I think is new is that

480
00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 2: young people all have a device in their hands that

481
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:43,879
Speaker 2: connect it to them so instantly, and that content is

482
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:47,200
Speaker 2: not just there, it's also amplified by social media platforms

483
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:50,080
Speaker 2: who are getting rich off of it. It's algorithmically, you know,

484
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:52,440
Speaker 2: surfaced for them, and it kind of makes me feel

485
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:57,720
Speaker 2: like they don't necessarily have a lot of tools when

486
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:00,800
Speaker 2: they're young to steer away from that content because it's

487
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:03,680
Speaker 2: such a pull. I bet yeah.

488
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,840
Speaker 1: I really think that Like if you're you know, giving

489
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:09,159
Speaker 1: the example that you gave your heartbroken, and you're a

490
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:12,080
Speaker 1: man and you just went through a devastating heartbreak, and

491
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:14,879
Speaker 1: you pops up on your TikTok feeds sneak, o refresh

492
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,800
Speaker 1: and fit talking about like why women break men's hearts,

493
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,399
Speaker 1: and it's like the next five tiktoks that are coming up,

494
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:23,840
Speaker 1: you're on the manosphere tag or whatever you're looking at.

495
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:26,480
Speaker 1: You know that is really going to draw people in.

496
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:29,880
Speaker 1: And I think that is constant stimulation, and people are

497
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:32,920
Speaker 1: being assured over and over again that women are the problem,

498
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:35,040
Speaker 1: I think is what it is. Especially if you're looking

499
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:37,719
Speaker 1: for that kind of content or like your algorithm has

500
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:39,600
Speaker 1: picked up that you're interested in that kind of content,

501
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:41,639
Speaker 1: You're just going to get the same talking points and

502
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,159
Speaker 1: the same misogyny over and over again, and it's just

503
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:45,560
Speaker 1: going to draw you further into it.

504
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 2: And I just I mean, what responsibility do you think

505
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:52,439
Speaker 2: that social media platforms have to keep that from happening,

506
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:53,600
Speaker 2: especially to young people.

507
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:58,119
Speaker 1: I think they need to have more terms of service

508
00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:01,480
Speaker 1: when it comes to extremistygny. Honestly, I feel like a

509
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:06,720
Speaker 1: lot of times they are pretty lax. Places like TikTok

510
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:10,360
Speaker 1: or obviously Twitter or you know, any sort of social media.

511
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:15,160
Speaker 1: They just don't have the kind of specificity that they

512
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 1: really need to have to keep women safe on the Internet.

513
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:20,120
Speaker 2: Do you feel it's getting worse.

514
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:26,040
Speaker 1: On some platforms, Yeah, I mean I feel like maybe,

515
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:29,879
Speaker 1: well maybe it's not getting worse, but the bad actors

516
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:32,440
Speaker 1: are getting better at it. I'll say that I feel

517
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:36,679
Speaker 1: like sometimes they're able to really talk around things. I

518
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:39,159
Speaker 1: think that some of the bad actors are able to

519
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 1: you know, know what gets viral to sort of draw

520
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,879
Speaker 1: people in. And I think that the social media platforms,

521
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 1: you know, they still want to make money and they

522
00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 1: don't want to see some of their biggest actors taken off.

523
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 1: I think that's I think that's an unfortunate reality, is that,

524
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:57,879
Speaker 1: you know, if you have someone that's bringing in a

525
00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:00,200
Speaker 1: lot of attention to a lot of clicks, they don't

526
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:01,080
Speaker 1: want to ba them.

527
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:03,160
Speaker 2: And if you're Elon Musk, maybe you'll give them twenty

528
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 2: thousand dollars and thus incentivize the next misogynistic hate monger

529
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:10,800
Speaker 2: to get big on the platform and say hey, I

530
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:13,119
Speaker 2: could do that. I can say misogynistic things into a

531
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 2: microphone money please exactly.

532
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:17,400
Speaker 1: If it's getting clips, then there you go.

533
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:20,439
Speaker 2: So you talked about how some of these bad actors

534
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:24,040
Speaker 2: are pretty good about like coding things so that they

535
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:26,399
Speaker 2: stay on the right side of these terms of service.

536
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:29,639
Speaker 2: I saw something in a social media feed. It was

537
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:33,200
Speaker 2: Nick flint Has on the Freshian Fit podcast and they

538
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:36,159
Speaker 2: were talking about JQ, and I was like, what the

539
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:38,880
Speaker 2: fuck is JAQ? Then I read your piece and I

540
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 2: was like the Jewish question. Then I saw the host

541
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:45,960
Speaker 2: of Fresh and Fit saying he basically bragged, saying that

542
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:48,840
Speaker 2: you know, we're the biggest platform that's talking about the JQ.

543
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 2: No one else will do it. What's going on here?

544
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 2: Like what is that?

545
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:58,680
Speaker 1: This is straight up Nazi shit And I am being

546
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:02,240
Speaker 1: dead serious. When you bring Nick Quentis into it, you

547
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:04,600
Speaker 1: know he is a neo Nazi. He's a white supremacist

548
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:08,600
Speaker 1: and a Holocaust denier. They have been talking Nick Quentas

549
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:11,200
Speaker 1: and Freshman Fit four months about getting together and doing

550
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 1: this collaboration. So this was kind of the precipice of

551
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 1: them making of working together to make sure that they

552
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 1: can do this like hours an hour's long stream. There

553
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:23,680
Speaker 1: was even a video that was going around of Nick

554
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 1: doing a Nazi pile in the Fresh and Fitz studio

555
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 1: and they're talking about the Jewish Question. This is, you know,

556
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 1: the same thing that Adolf Hitler was talking about when

557
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 1: he was like, what do we do about the Jews?

558
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 1: And like you said, the hosts were saying, we're the

559
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 1: only podcast that's talking about the Jewish Question. It's extremely

560
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 1: extremely scary stuff to see and something that you know

561
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 1: is extremely well codd You know, a clip like that

562
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 1: where they're just talking about the JQ, something like that

563
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 1: could probably go on to TikTok because their algorithms might

564
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:00,080
Speaker 1: not pick it up. Maybe they would pick up if

565
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 1: someone did like a hashtag Nick quentas or something like that,

566
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:07,520
Speaker 1: but it'll just direct people. They'll direct people back to Rumble,

567
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 1: which is where you can see these hour long streams.

568
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:12,960
Speaker 2: I'm glad that you put it that way. Back when

569
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 2: Kanye West and Nick Quintes went to visit Trump, I

570
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 2: did an interview with Robert Evans, who makes the podcast

571
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 2: Behind the Bastards, who's all about all of these shitheads,

572
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:24,720
Speaker 2: and that was the point that he made too, which

573
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 2: is that Nick Fuentes is a Nazi. Like some of

574
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:31,160
Speaker 2: these other characters, they kind of dance around it. They

575
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 2: you know, you could sort of be like, oh, they're

576
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 2: trolling maybe, but he's not in that camp, and so

577
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 2: that like when you are platforming him, you're doing a

578
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 2: very different thing and you're sending a very different, clear

579
00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:44,480
Speaker 2: signal about what you're about.

580
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,080
Speaker 1: I completely agree. I think that when you make the

581
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 1: decision to platform Nick quentas you are drawing a line

582
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 1: in the sand, you are saying, I am willing to

583
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 1: put a Nazi onto my show, and I'm listening and

584
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 1: I will hear him out. So someone like Pearl just

585
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 1: pearly things. As we talked about a couple of months ago,

586
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 1: she had him on her show.

587
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 2: Nick fuent has actually inspired Pearl so much that she

588
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 2: made an entire anti semitic song about it. When Pierce

589
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 2: Morgan confronted Pearl about it on his television show, here's

590
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 2: how she responded.

591
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 3: I mean, the point was more about cancel culture and

592
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 3: people getting kicked off of social media. If you finished

593
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:24,600
Speaker 3: the song, it was more about like, you can't talk

594
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:27,680
Speaker 3: about this topic without being canceled by the left. And

595
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 3: the right. I don't really have a strong opinion either way.

596
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 1: And she obviously got a lot of backlash. She took

597
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 1: the videos down, she put the videos back up, she

598
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 1: defended him, she went back and forth, but she ended

599
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 1: the place she ended up. She ended up being like,

600
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:43,080
Speaker 1: I believe in free speech, so I would host him

601
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:46,000
Speaker 1: again something like that. It's just ridiculous, and I think

602
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:50,320
Speaker 1: that it is so so dangerous the manosphere in general,

603
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 1: but then to bring Nazism and neo Nazianism into it,

604
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,960
Speaker 1: I mean, it is just like two very scary, dangerous

605
00:31:57,960 --> 00:31:58,680
Speaker 1: worlds colliding.

606
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:01,239
Speaker 2: What are some of the real world impacts of this,

607
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 2: because I'm certainly sure somebody listening is like, it's just

608
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,640
Speaker 2: young people saying naughty words on the Internet. It doesn't

609
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 2: really mean anything. What is the real world impact?

610
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:13,880
Speaker 1: Well, you know, the manosphere in general does not live

611
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:19,040
Speaker 1: in a vacuum. SOS. Major misogyny and extreme misogyny has

612
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 1: led to real world violence. People like Elliott Rodgers, who

613
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:27,480
Speaker 1: is an in cell mouth shooter. Obviously many attacks against women.

614
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 1: Gamergate in twenty fifteen, when members when female members of

615
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:36,600
Speaker 1: the video game community were attacked, sent death threats and

616
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:40,040
Speaker 1: rape threats. These are all just examples of ways that

617
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 1: the manosphere has, you know, come into the real world

618
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 1: and has become a serious danger to people and has

619
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 1: affected real people's lives.

620
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, just this week, I was reading on

621
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:56,320
Speaker 2: Twitter about a man who had posted a picture of

622
00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 2: him and his wife and said, I think it was

623
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:01,000
Speaker 2: a tweet that was like, oh, I went Columbia and

624
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 2: I married, I came back with a wife. And that

625
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 2: person is now being accused of murdering his wife. And

626
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 2: you go to his Twitter page and it's all Andrew

627
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:12,560
Speaker 2: Tait stuff. And I'm not saying that there's like there's

628
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:15,120
Speaker 2: a deep like a deep connection, because we don't know.

629
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 2: It's still something that they're investigating. But I have to

630
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 2: imagine that somebody who is absorbing content from an influencer

631
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:25,120
Speaker 2: who is saying all of these things about how women

632
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:27,480
Speaker 2: haven't deserve rights, how if a woman is raped she

633
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 2: bears some responsibility, like all of this stuff, I can't

634
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:33,240
Speaker 2: imagine how that is not creating a less safe world

635
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:36,400
Speaker 2: for everybody, women especially, but also for the men who

636
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 2: absorb this content.

637
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:42,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I do think that it is making men think that,

638
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 1: you know, violence is sometimes an answer when Nick was

639
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:50,720
Speaker 1: on Pearl's show, he downplayed domestic abuse. You know, so

640
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 1: if you're someone who is easily influenced by like bad

641
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:58,520
Speaker 1: actors or figures or the kind of content you're taking in,

642
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 1: you know, these are people who are quick to violence

643
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 1: and quick to like you know, call up arms. You know,

644
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:11,400
Speaker 1: these are very scary people who are associated with people

645
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:16,440
Speaker 1: that have you know, been convicted of violent acts pretty much,

646
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:20,640
Speaker 1: people that are gropers that have followed Nick Fuentas. There

647
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:23,719
Speaker 1: have been like multiple instances of these people being charged

648
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 1: for you know, dangerous and violent apps.

649
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:42,719
Speaker 2: More after a quick break, let's get right back into it.

650
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 2: Tate and people like him make contents specifically and explicitly

651
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 2: targeting kids. Before it was deleted from the app stores,

652
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:53,920
Speaker 2: Tate's app The Real World said it was appropriate for

653
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:57,160
Speaker 2: ages for and up. He even boasts about having a

654
00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 2: six year old subscriber. Similarly, in avieral video of sneak

655
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:04,240
Speaker 2: O meeting a handful of his fans who are boys,

656
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,279
Speaker 2: maybe age eight or nine, one of them gleefully tell

657
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 2: sneak O fuck all women, while another says all gay

658
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:13,400
Speaker 2: should die. What is content like this doing to a

659
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:17,120
Speaker 2: generation of young men? It's really scary, and I read

660
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:21,479
Speaker 2: about how Andrew Tate's content. I read a piece about

661
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:24,640
Speaker 2: how teachers in schools like people who work with young people,

662
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:29,360
Speaker 2: his content specifically is causes. It's leading to disruptions where

663
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 2: you know, young men will who like Andrew Tate, will

664
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:38,319
Speaker 2: start bringing his content into the classroom, and it just

665
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:42,160
Speaker 2: creates a very unsafe, chaotic environment, especially for like the young,

666
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:44,399
Speaker 2: like like young kids, elementary school kids.

667
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:48,239
Speaker 1: So Insider had a report, it was a couple of

668
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 1: months back now, and it said that there was an

669
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:55,160
Speaker 1: eleven year old who was repeating Andrew tait content and

670
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:57,719
Speaker 1: who was pretty much saying that he like idolized him.

671
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:01,240
Speaker 1: I do think that, you know, when people are looking

672
00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:04,040
Speaker 1: up to these these like people like Andrew Tat or

673
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:05,719
Speaker 1: even Nick Quentas. I think you're going to see it

674
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:09,200
Speaker 1: in schools, You'll see it with young young people. And

675
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:11,880
Speaker 1: you know Nick Fuentas, I've watched plenty of his streams.

676
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:16,080
Speaker 1: Sometimes he speaks directly to the high schoolers that are

677
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:18,319
Speaker 1: listening to his show, so to kind of give you

678
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:22,040
Speaker 1: an idea of like how young this is going. These influencers,

679
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:25,000
Speaker 1: they and bad actors that they know who's listening and

680
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:30,080
Speaker 1: it's it's young kids, and it's very impressionable, susceptible young people.

681
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:35,560
Speaker 2: And I have I have this theory, and I would

682
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:38,359
Speaker 2: love to know your thoughts that, even if you are

683
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:41,719
Speaker 2: not somebody who likes Andrew Tate, would ever subscribe to

684
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:45,120
Speaker 2: a Fresh and Fit, wouldever be watching Nick Fuentez. The

685
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:48,840
Speaker 2: way that these clips have taken of these people speaking

686
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:51,600
Speaker 2: have taken over social media, whether or not you follow

687
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:53,360
Speaker 2: them like I see them and I obviously don't like

688
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 2: these people. I think that that is trickling down into

689
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:01,240
Speaker 2: wider society. So even people who don't think of themselves

690
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 2: as like men's rights types, they might be absorbing, casually

691
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:09,399
Speaker 2: absorbing some of these attitudes without even really realizing it,

692
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:11,840
Speaker 2: because they are so ubiquitous on our platforms. What do

693
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:12,480
Speaker 2: you think about that?

694
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:16,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I could see I could definitely see that. I

695
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:18,839
Speaker 1: think that if it's showing up in your TikTok feed enough,

696
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:21,160
Speaker 1: you know, it's just getting into your subconscious I mean

697
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:24,600
Speaker 1: maybe that sounds a little conspiracy theory of me, but

698
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 1: I do feel like it's it's coming into you know,

699
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:32,840
Speaker 1: the Overton window for what we think is like misogyny

700
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:35,000
Speaker 1: feels to be shifting a little bit. You know, it's

701
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 1: just something that you feel in the air. Obviously it's

702
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:40,120
Speaker 1: not something that I can like point to exactly, but

703
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:42,440
Speaker 1: it's sometimes you just you just feel it. And I

704
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:44,400
Speaker 1: think that's kind of what you were describing as well.

705
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:49,320
Speaker 1: It's just something that you know, you can just tell

706
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:52,560
Speaker 1: in the way that people talk. Yes, in the last

707
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:56,200
Speaker 1: like couple of years, and it's it's kind of what

708
00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:58,400
Speaker 1: got me interested in the manosphere too. I mean, it

709
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:01,200
Speaker 1: was just like it's something I felt in my own

710
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 1: life and it's something that I was seeing online and

711
00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 1: I think as a gay man, I see it in

712
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:11,800
Speaker 1: my community a lot, a lot of misogyny, and it's like, honestly,

713
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:14,960
Speaker 1: within the last year or two, it's like it's what

714
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:18,360
Speaker 1: some gay in might think is funny, honeously honestly just

715
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:21,560
Speaker 1: ends up being like hurtful to women or like could

716
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 1: end up just being dangerous. And I just think that's

717
00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:24,440
Speaker 1: part of it as well.

718
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:27,680
Speaker 2: How did you get into caring about and researching and

719
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:28,840
Speaker 2: following this kind of content?

720
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:32,279
Speaker 1: So first I was just doing extremism, So I was

721
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:36,920
Speaker 1: really mostly just following obviously normal right wing media. I

722
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 1: was following Steve Bannon, when I first started at Media Matters,

723
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:43,120
Speaker 1: and then I got particularly interested in a Quintus. And

724
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:47,480
Speaker 1: then I think that as my TikTok algorithm started to

725
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:49,799
Speaker 1: change and shift a little bit, I started to get

726
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:53,439
Speaker 1: Manosphere content, and I think I just kind of fell

727
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:55,840
Speaker 1: into it too. I was like, who are these people

728
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 1: and how do they why do they keep showing up

729
00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 1: on my feed and why or do they have so

730
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:03,719
Speaker 1: many likes and follows? And I feel like that's kind

731
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:06,799
Speaker 1: of what first, like initially kind of threw me into it.

732
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:11,239
Speaker 1: And I also started to follow Aiden Ross as I

733
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:14,160
Speaker 1: was talking about the streamer and him and Andrew Tate

734
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:19,160
Speaker 1: have like this serious, very strange romance, and that's honestly

735
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:22,840
Speaker 1: what brought me over to kind of like the hate

736
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:24,520
Speaker 1: speech world of it all as well.

737
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:29,920
Speaker 2: Okay, so what is it like following this, because I mean,

738
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:32,879
Speaker 2: I have a separate TikTok account that I use for

739
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:36,440
Speaker 2: like following nonsense just so that my personal TikTok account

740
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:38,680
Speaker 2: will not be all nonsense when I'm just trying to

741
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:41,000
Speaker 2: watch TikTok's. What has it been like for you personally

742
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:42,600
Speaker 2: to have to like be mired in all this all

743
00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:42,959
Speaker 2: the time?

744
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:47,080
Speaker 1: You know it can be really hard some days. I

745
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:49,920
Speaker 1: feel like for me, after working at Media Matters for

746
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:52,160
Speaker 1: nearly three years, I've like really found a good way

747
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:55,680
Speaker 1: to pace myself kind of taking in this content. I

748
00:39:55,719 --> 00:40:00,040
Speaker 1: think that, honestly, as a gay Jewish man, seeing a

749
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:02,719
Speaker 1: lot of the anti Semitism and a lot of the

750
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 1: homophobia and anti Pride month stuff has really been the

751
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:09,919
Speaker 1: hardest for me. I do think that it's really about

752
00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:12,879
Speaker 1: pacing yourself when it comes to how I can kind

753
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:16,000
Speaker 1: of handle all of it. I also just think that

754
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:19,760
Speaker 1: the manosphere in particular, I feel like is very reactionary

755
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:22,560
Speaker 1: to the moment, which means it's just like very fast paced.

756
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:26,040
Speaker 1: There's always something new happening. The world of kind of

757
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:28,640
Speaker 1: extremism feels a little bit slower, So I feel like

758
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:32,840
Speaker 1: also just making sure that you know, I have people

759
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:35,840
Speaker 1: on my team that if I can't handle something or

760
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:40,440
Speaker 1: things are just happening too quickly, there are other colleagues

761
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:42,000
Speaker 1: of mine that I feel like I can really hand

762
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:43,719
Speaker 1: it off to and I can really trust them with

763
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 1: the content and the research as well.

764
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:49,400
Speaker 2: I'm glad you feel like you have that support. I'm interested,

765
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:53,120
Speaker 2: do you see all of this stuff that's kind of connected,

766
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 2: like the anti Pride stuff, is that sort of connected

767
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:58,440
Speaker 2: to the manosphere stuff, Like is this all linked in

768
00:40:58,480 --> 00:40:59,279
Speaker 2: some way in your mind?

769
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 1: Absolutely? I really think that, especially in this last year,

770
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:10,440
Speaker 1: the manosphere like they dove head first into the anti

771
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:14,160
Speaker 1: lgbt Q rhetoric and the anti trans rhetoric. There was

772
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:16,919
Speaker 1: a day in June where Andrew Tate thought it would

773
00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:19,840
Speaker 1: be so hilarious to be like, I'm a trans woman

774
00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:24,640
Speaker 1: and then just started tweeting constantly all day about being trans.

775
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:27,759
Speaker 1: It was really disgusting and something that I think you

776
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:32,320
Speaker 1: would really only find on Elon Musk's Twitter. And another

777
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 1: horrible example Sneako, who we were talking about before, he

778
00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:42,239
Speaker 1: wrote the words Pride month on a shooting target and

779
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:46,360
Speaker 1: then went outside with automatic rifles and they were shooting

780
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:49,400
Speaker 1: at it, him and a couple of his buddies. So

781
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:53,720
Speaker 1: it is just it is just really extreme, the anti

782
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:58,000
Speaker 1: LGBTQ rhetoric is it is honestly from the manosphere. Some

783
00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:01,040
Speaker 1: of the some of the more scary stuf that I've seen.

784
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:03,000
Speaker 1: It is it is really hard to see.

785
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:07,879
Speaker 2: Shit is so fucked up, And you know, I don't

786
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:09,480
Speaker 2: know how you feel about this. The way that I have.

787
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:11,960
Speaker 2: What I've been sort of saying is that even for

788
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:16,440
Speaker 2: people who have a problem with trans people or queer people,

789
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:19,960
Speaker 2: most people aren't doing this like this, Like this is

790
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:23,040
Speaker 2: such a different thing. Taking the time out of your

791
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 2: day to write Pride month on a target and then

792
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:29,279
Speaker 2: go film yourself shooting at it or filming yourself demolishing

793
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:32,759
Speaker 2: a target Pride section. That is not normal. And I

794
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:35,640
Speaker 2: think that the thing that worries me is that it's

795
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:39,719
Speaker 2: signaling to people that, oh, this is normal behavior like

796
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:42,279
Speaker 2: this is if you if you have a problem with

797
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:46,040
Speaker 2: queer people or trans people, this is an appropriate way

798
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:50,359
Speaker 2: to to deal with that. And I think that there

799
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:52,400
Speaker 2: are plenty of people who probably do have problems with

800
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:55,040
Speaker 2: trans people and queer people, but this is such a

801
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:57,360
Speaker 2: different thing, Like I feel like they're telling these people

802
00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:01,759
Speaker 2: that this is an appropriate way to suppress whatever bigotries

803
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:03,719
Speaker 2: that you have, And that's what really scares me.

804
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:07,560
Speaker 1: I do think that people like Sneako, when they do

805
00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:09,720
Speaker 1: like a stunt like that, it is to get clicks.

806
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:11,960
Speaker 1: But I also think it's normalizing it as well. I

807
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:14,759
Speaker 1: think it's exactly what you described. I think that they

808
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:17,200
Speaker 1: are thinking, like, oh, if this is funny, and Sneako

809
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:19,640
Speaker 1: can do it, then like it's cool if I do

810
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:22,400
Speaker 1: it as well, or if someone wants to, you know,

811
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:25,359
Speaker 1: pretend to be a trans person online just to mock

812
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:27,759
Speaker 1: them then and if your haid is getting a bunch

813
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:29,759
Speaker 1: of clicks, then like yeah, sure why I can do

814
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:34,560
Speaker 1: that as well. And also Perl just pearly things as well,

815
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:39,239
Speaker 1: has been she plays or semi professional volleyball. I think

816
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:42,120
Speaker 1: over in England that I think that's her full time

817
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:45,239
Speaker 1: job outside of being a commentator. And she's been like

818
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:48,360
Speaker 1: fighting with them about her anti trans rhetoric and it

819
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 1: has really only made her anti LGBT rhetoric like so

820
00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:57,560
Speaker 1: much worse. I think that people like her they are

821
00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:02,520
Speaker 1: just like so so angry. She has so much anger,

822
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:04,920
Speaker 1: and people like Andrew t they are they have so

823
00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 1: much anger, and like you just wonder where it comes from.

824
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:10,120
Speaker 1: And like sometimes it's just so obvious that it's not

825
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:13,120
Speaker 1: actually towards the LGBT community, but that's where they're putting it,

826
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:17,279
Speaker 1: and it's it's ridiculous and it's dangerous and scary. As

827
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:18,400
Speaker 1: I've said a couple of times.

828
00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:20,239
Speaker 2: Oh my god, that's I've noticed the same thing is

829
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:23,600
Speaker 2: like there are plenty of things that I don't like

830
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:29,160
Speaker 2: in society. I don't dedicate my time to like obsessing

831
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:31,839
Speaker 2: over the it in this way. And also like some

832
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:34,200
Speaker 2: of the Andrew Tate and Fresh and Fit, Like there's

833
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:36,680
Speaker 2: two clips that stick in my mind of them, like

834
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:41,160
Speaker 2: ranting like Andrew Tate ranting about how like he doesn't

835
00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:43,640
Speaker 2: eat breakfast because he starts his day with caffeine and

836
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:46,400
Speaker 2: and nicotine and hate running through his veins, and like

837
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:49,880
Speaker 2: there's this clip of I think it's I'm blanking the

838
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:54,399
Speaker 2: host's name, but like screaming into the microphone about how

839
00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:58,080
Speaker 2: when he was playing too many, too many video games,

840
00:44:58,120 --> 00:44:59,960
Speaker 2: women didn't give him the time of day and how

841
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:03,960
Speaker 2: that was so horrible. It's like they have such deep,

842
00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:08,880
Speaker 2: clear reservoirs of hate and anger. And also they're telling people,

843
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:11,880
Speaker 2: don't you want to be like me? Not really like

844
00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:14,000
Speaker 2: I want to wake up and have a nice breakfast.

845
00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:15,640
Speaker 2: I don't want to start my day with hate and

846
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:17,640
Speaker 2: pain and caffeine and nicotine. I actually would love to

847
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:20,000
Speaker 2: have a nice breakfast that actually sounds nice. Do I

848
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:24,279
Speaker 2: want to be foaming into a microphone viewing hate and

849
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:26,640
Speaker 2: anger about all the women who've done me wrong? Not

850
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:29,319
Speaker 2: really that actually doesn't seem appealing. And so it's very

851
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:32,000
Speaker 2: interesting how so much of their ethos, like you said,

852
00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:34,959
Speaker 2: is based around be like me, but they don't actually

853
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:37,080
Speaker 2: seem very happy, and in fact quite the opposite.

854
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:42,200
Speaker 1: I'm like, aren't you guys exhausted? Like watching you guys?

855
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:46,520
Speaker 1: I'm exhausted like being that angry all the time, and like,

856
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:48,680
Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know what it's getting for

857
00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:51,640
Speaker 1: you guys, but like I just it shocks me, It

858
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:52,440
Speaker 1: really does.

859
00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:58,440
Speaker 2: And I just think it it's shocking, and it presents

860
00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:02,080
Speaker 2: like for young men, like they can have a different

861
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:04,440
Speaker 2: kind of life, They can have different kinds of relationships,

862
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:10,320
Speaker 2: they can have meaningful, fulfilling relationships based on communication, trust, honesty, openness,

863
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:12,880
Speaker 2: respects and all of that, Like that is possible for everybody,

864
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:16,000
Speaker 2: and I just think it presents such an empty worldview

865
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:19,000
Speaker 2: that in the end traps them as well. We talk

866
00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:21,160
Speaker 2: a lot rightly about the ways that this kind of

867
00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:23,480
Speaker 2: content is a danger for women, which it is, but

868
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:25,759
Speaker 2: it's also such a danger to these men who are

869
00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:28,319
Speaker 2: being sold alive that this is all they can have,

870
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:30,840
Speaker 2: when in reality, they can have so much more. The

871
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:33,839
Speaker 2: world is so much more open and available to them

872
00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:36,799
Speaker 2: having a different kind of experience. But this content and

873
00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:41,400
Speaker 2: this dynamic just keeps them trapped, probably miserable and ultimately

874
00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:42,560
Speaker 2: lacking an agency.

875
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:46,160
Speaker 1: And I just think poor, Yeah, it is draining their

876
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:48,880
Speaker 1: bank accounts as well. They think that they're getting so

877
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:50,600
Speaker 1: much out of it that they really just don't.

878
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:53,960
Speaker 2: Oh my god, if, like I wrote a piece for

879
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:58,560
Speaker 2: the Nation about fresh and fits like online school, if

880
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:01,280
Speaker 2: you're sending these grifters six hundred dollars a month, please

881
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:04,759
Speaker 2: do like that money would be so much better spent elsewhere.

882
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:09,920
Speaker 1: I completely agree. I mean, when when the example that

883
00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:11,880
Speaker 1: you're trying to follow is Andrew Tate, who was like

884
00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:16,240
Speaker 1: literally running in MLM, You know, you'd think that people

885
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:18,399
Speaker 1: would know better, but you know they don't.

886
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:21,480
Speaker 2: Why does so much of this content take off in

887
00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:24,799
Speaker 2: the podcast space? Like why do all these people have podcasts?

888
00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:28,560
Speaker 2: Even if their podcast is like them with six people

889
00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:30,399
Speaker 2: in a room and they're just videotaping it and they're

890
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:33,399
Speaker 2: calling it a podcast. It's a a pet peeve of mind.

891
00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:36,560
Speaker 2: What is it about the podcast space that draws these

892
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:37,319
Speaker 2: charlatans in.

893
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:40,520
Speaker 1: I think that if you can put a microphone in

894
00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:43,160
Speaker 1: front of someone that means that they are allowed to

895
00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:46,080
Speaker 1: speak their mind any which way that they want. And

896
00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:49,239
Speaker 1: I don't think that's actually reality, but I think that

897
00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:53,920
Speaker 1: with that setup, it lends itself to that kind of

898
00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:56,719
Speaker 1: rhetoric and that kind of critique and that kind of

899
00:47:57,200 --> 00:48:01,560
Speaker 1: discussion and discourse something like fresh and fit where there's

900
00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:05,479
Speaker 1: like twelve microphones on the table, Like this really isn't

901
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:09,200
Speaker 1: how a podcast is working. Like I assume most people

902
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:11,160
Speaker 1: that are watching it are watching it for like the

903
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:15,279
Speaker 1: video form, So I just think that the podcast of

904
00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:18,200
Speaker 1: it all, I'll say, the podcast format out of it

905
00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:22,560
Speaker 1: all really just like it's lending itself to to, you know,

906
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:26,959
Speaker 1: a format which lends itself to a specific specific type

907
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:27,520
Speaker 1: of discourse.

908
00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:29,560
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I could talk all day. This is

909
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:33,520
Speaker 2: like such a such a thing with me. Where the

910
00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:36,520
Speaker 2: look of a podcast, yeah, where there's like twelve microphones.

911
00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:38,640
Speaker 2: First of all, that is too many fucking people to

912
00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:40,839
Speaker 2: be on a podcast. It's so like already just to

913
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:43,480
Speaker 2: tell you something's going on. But the thing on TikTok

914
00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:47,200
Speaker 2: that really gets a lot of traction is, yeah, headphones

915
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:50,440
Speaker 2: and microphone that might not even be plugged in, Like

916
00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:55,560
Speaker 2: the aesthetic of I'm having serious discourse or like I'm

917
00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:57,440
Speaker 2: going to tell you how I really think in an

918
00:48:57,440 --> 00:48:59,840
Speaker 2: intimate way. I think that a lot of these influencers

919
00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:05,680
Speaker 2: are able to rely on the aesthetic of podcasts and

920
00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:10,120
Speaker 2: what that brings to push their horrible messages out in

921
00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:13,080
Speaker 2: a way that kind of shields them from criticism, I believe,

922
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:15,160
Speaker 2: because if it was just somebody in their car making

923
00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:18,359
Speaker 2: this video, you'd be like, who's this nobody next? But oh,

924
00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:20,880
Speaker 2: he's got a microphone and headphones. Let's listen to what

925
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:22,720
Speaker 2: he's got to say.

926
00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:25,600
Speaker 1: Right. If he has a microphone in front of him,

927
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:28,439
Speaker 1: then I should maybe be taking him seriously. I think

928
00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:32,040
Speaker 1: is the thought that these people have, Like if I

929
00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:34,719
Speaker 1: have a big, fancy yetni mic or whatever I have,

930
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:38,960
Speaker 1: and I got my big, expensive over the head earphones on,

931
00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:43,080
Speaker 1: then like this person might mean something. This person has

932
00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:45,680
Speaker 1: the ability to put a podcast out, and maybe that

933
00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:48,920
Speaker 1: would also carries some weight to it. I feel like

934
00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:53,360
Speaker 1: sometimes when I'm watching these smaller like right wing media

935
00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:56,719
Speaker 1: figures that are doing podcasts for my job, I'm like,

936
00:49:57,920 --> 00:50:01,120
Speaker 1: is there are they uploading this anywhere? Or they just

937
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:04,200
Speaker 1: like click start on photo booth and like sit in

938
00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:07,279
Speaker 1: front of their microphone and just kind of like run

939
00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:10,600
Speaker 1: with it. I actually don't know. I would love sometimes

940
00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:12,160
Speaker 1: I would love to see people set up.

941
00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:15,439
Speaker 2: No, I have definitely one hundred percent seen TikTok clips

942
00:50:15,440 --> 00:50:17,480
Speaker 2: where it's like that I know that that mic is

943
00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:19,719
Speaker 2: not on. I know it's not on. That is just

944
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:22,360
Speaker 2: a prop to make us, to make us feel some

945
00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:26,279
Speaker 2: kind of way about what you're saying. Absolutely so, justin

946
00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:29,880
Speaker 2: if let's say that somebody listening has somebody in their

947
00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:33,200
Speaker 2: life kind of asking for selfish reasons, because I apparently

948
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:36,040
Speaker 2: do have somebody in my life who is watching this

949
00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:37,920
Speaker 2: kind of content and you're worried about them. Do you

950
00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:40,040
Speaker 2: have any tips for how we might approach that.

951
00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:46,439
Speaker 1: I think the finding good content to replace the bad

952
00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:48,560
Speaker 1: content is a great place to start when it comes

953
00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:51,960
Speaker 1: like talking about masculinity. I also think that being able

954
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:55,440
Speaker 1: to show people the worst parts of these influencers is

955
00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:58,120
Speaker 1: a really important aspect. So kind of like your family

956
00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:00,960
Speaker 1: member where they're like, oh, well, I see I see

957
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:02,960
Speaker 1: the grindset of it all. I see him like smoking

958
00:51:02,960 --> 00:51:05,400
Speaker 1: his cigars. It's like, okay, but do you do you

959
00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:12,080
Speaker 1: see him talking about you know, hitting women or talking

960
00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:16,239
Speaker 1: bad about the LGBTQ community. I think that what is

961
00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:19,360
Speaker 1: important is kind of talking to the values of the

962
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:24,680
Speaker 1: people that are watching these influencers that maybe you can

963
00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:27,760
Speaker 1: hit on in a different way. So if your family

964
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:31,800
Speaker 1: member cares about LGBTQ rights, if your family member cares about,

965
00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:37,000
Speaker 1: you know, violence against women, it's you know, directing the

966
00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:40,560
Speaker 1: attention towards different aspects of these influencers that maybe they

967
00:51:40,560 --> 00:51:43,680
Speaker 1: don't see on TikTok or they don't see directly online,

968
00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:46,160
Speaker 1: but are definitely there if you sit and listen and

969
00:51:46,160 --> 00:51:47,560
Speaker 1: do a little bit of research.

970
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:50,000
Speaker 2: That's really good advice. And I think the point about

971
00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:54,400
Speaker 2: like replacing the content that they're currently consuming with something

972
00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:55,960
Speaker 2: else is such a good one. And I think it

973
00:51:56,000 --> 00:52:00,359
Speaker 2: really speaks to have like that bad actor and their

974
00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:05,960
Speaker 2: ability to seize gaps in information and content because you know,

975
00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:09,480
Speaker 2: I'm probably like you, I'm part of like coalitions and

976
00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:13,120
Speaker 2: panels about like how we speak to different groups. And

977
00:52:13,719 --> 00:52:15,719
Speaker 2: one that comes up time and time again is like

978
00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:21,239
Speaker 2: this entire generation of disaffected young people, a lot of

979
00:52:21,239 --> 00:52:24,440
Speaker 2: whom are men that were just not speaking to right,

980
00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:28,279
Speaker 2: Like nobody is actually in a meaningful way seeing them

981
00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:30,520
Speaker 2: speaking to their issues. At least they don't feel that way,

982
00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:33,840
Speaker 2: and the people who are getting their ears and eyes

983
00:52:34,040 --> 00:52:37,279
Speaker 2: are these charlatans with a dangerous message. And so I

984
00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:39,480
Speaker 2: do think part of it is being all of us

985
00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:43,000
Speaker 2: who make content being a little bit better about making content.

986
00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:47,120
Speaker 2: That helps so that these bad actors are not able

987
00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:49,760
Speaker 2: to seize these massive gaps where there is no content

988
00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:50,479
Speaker 2: filling that gap.

989
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:53,480
Speaker 1: I really like that idea. It really comes down to

990
00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:56,600
Speaker 1: like the messaging, like who is the messaging for? And

991
00:52:56,640 --> 00:52:58,640
Speaker 1: I feel like a lot of that when it comes

992
00:52:58,680 --> 00:53:01,400
Speaker 1: to like political messaging, is like we're really aiming towards

993
00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:04,120
Speaker 1: this one demographic, whether that be young people or like

994
00:53:04,960 --> 00:53:08,000
Speaker 1: older voters or someone like that. But I feel like

995
00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:12,200
Speaker 1: when it comes down to it, when we're creating content

996
00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:17,000
Speaker 1: and we're being you know, influencers, these influencers, I don't

997
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:19,600
Speaker 1: think that there are a lot of people out there

998
00:53:19,640 --> 00:53:22,440
Speaker 1: that their initial thought is I want to do I

999
00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:24,520
Speaker 1: want to do good things for young men. I don't

1000
00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:26,759
Speaker 1: think that people really I don't think that's something that

1001
00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:29,840
Speaker 1: people really think of right off the bad and maybe

1002
00:53:29,880 --> 00:53:33,239
Speaker 1: that just needs to be you know, looked at from

1003
00:53:33,239 --> 00:53:35,399
Speaker 1: a different lens. I don't I'm not totally sure how

1004
00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:38,160
Speaker 1: to get people to how to get people there. I

1005
00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:40,520
Speaker 1: guess I don't know how to get the message across

1006
00:53:40,560 --> 00:53:42,680
Speaker 1: and get the message out. It feels it feels like

1007
00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:45,759
Speaker 1: an important fight and something we can talk about in

1008
00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:48,279
Speaker 1: circles and circles, but I'm not sure what the next

1009
00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:51,560
Speaker 1: step would always be to get people to create better

1010
00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:54,000
Speaker 1: content that can replace the bad content.

1011
00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:56,480
Speaker 2: When you think about the future of where we are

1012
00:53:56,520 --> 00:53:59,520
Speaker 2: with this kind of content and our discourse more generally online,

1013
00:53:59,600 --> 00:54:03,080
Speaker 2: are you hopeful? Are you where are you at?

1014
00:54:04,880 --> 00:54:09,280
Speaker 1: Not hopeful? I think that these bad actors are getting

1015
00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:16,080
Speaker 1: better and better at what they do, and I see,

1016
00:54:15,040 --> 00:54:20,359
Speaker 1: I see, I see people like you and me who

1017
00:54:20,480 --> 00:54:24,439
Speaker 1: are you know, doing the work to point it out

1018
00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:27,000
Speaker 1: and talk about it. But I think that there needs

1019
00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:30,279
Speaker 1: to be more people like us, especially men like me,

1020
00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:33,600
Speaker 1: who are willing to call it out. I think that

1021
00:54:33,960 --> 00:54:36,880
Speaker 1: I think it would be great if there were more,

1022
00:54:37,400 --> 00:54:40,279
Speaker 1: you know, people in the queer community, people that are

1023
00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:44,320
Speaker 1: men that are willing to you know, speak up. I

1024
00:54:44,719 --> 00:54:46,680
Speaker 1: feel like I'm not seeing it if I'm being honest,

1025
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:47,919
Speaker 1: and that that makes me sad.

1026
00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:54,840
Speaker 2: Got a story about an interesting thing in tech. I

1027
00:54:54,960 --> 00:54:56,799
Speaker 2: just want to say hi, you can we just said

1028
00:54:56,800 --> 00:54:59,560
Speaker 2: hello at tangodi dot com. You can also find transcripts

1029
00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:02,000
Speaker 2: with today's vote at tengoiti dot com. There Are No

1030
00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:04,160
Speaker 2: Girls on the Internet was created by me Bridget Tod.

1031
00:55:04,520 --> 00:55:07,960
Speaker 2: It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. Jonathan Strickland

1032
00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:10,719
Speaker 2: is our executive producer. Tarry Harrison is our producer and

1033
00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:14,480
Speaker 2: sound engineer. Michael Almado is our contributing producer. I'm your host,

1034
00:55:14,560 --> 00:55:17,359
Speaker 2: Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate

1035
00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:21,120
Speaker 2: and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,

1036
00:55:21,239 --> 00:55:23,560
Speaker 2: check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

1037
00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:24,520
Speaker 2: get your podcasts.