1 00:00:04,200 --> 00:00:06,560 Speaker 1: Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Marko Wood Show 2 00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:10,320 Speaker 1: on iHeartRadio. My guest today is Liz Wolfe. Liz is 3 00:00:10,320 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: an associate editor at Reason. She writes the daily Reason Roundup. 4 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:16,200 Speaker 1: You can get it every morning in your inbox, and 5 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:19,680 Speaker 1: she hosts the show just asking questions. So nice to 6 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: have you on. 7 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:22,480 Speaker 2: Liz, Carol, It's so good to see you again. 8 00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:25,479 Speaker 1: It's really really good to see you too. You have 9 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:27,639 Speaker 1: become a mom since the last time I saw you 10 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 1: in person, which is quite a big change. And your 11 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:33,200 Speaker 1: son is just the cutest. How's that going. 12 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:37,200 Speaker 2: It's the best thing ever. I am very, very eager 13 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:40,360 Speaker 2: to try to exceed your record of three kids. I 14 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 2: am in awe of moms who have a whole brood, 15 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 2: and I hope to join their rank someday. I feel 16 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:47,839 Speaker 2: like you're playing on easy mode to some degree when 17 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:50,519 Speaker 2: you just have a youton child. But I also live 18 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 2: in New York City and I consider that to be 19 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:56,959 Speaker 2: basically playing on hard mode compared to most other peoples. 20 00:00:57,000 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 2: So I feel like it's a little bit of a 21 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:00,400 Speaker 2: mixed bag here. 22 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 1: Well, I'll tell you, I think having one wasn't super hard. 23 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 1: Having two almost killed me, But having three was the 24 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:11,880 Speaker 1: easiest of all of it, because they're just entertaining each other. 25 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:14,319 Speaker 1: And by the time you have the third, theoretically the 26 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 1: first and the second can you know, sort of take 27 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:19,680 Speaker 1: care of the third a little bit. Three is the 28 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:23,000 Speaker 1: magic number, I would say, I mean three plus. Anything 29 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 1: past three, but one or two is still kind of tough. 30 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 1: You need to be doing a lot of the entertaining 31 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:31,039 Speaker 1: and the parenting and the taking care of them when 32 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:32,400 Speaker 1: you could just kind of hand it off to the 33 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 1: older children. The more kids you have. 34 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:37,760 Speaker 2: Well, as a libertarian, I believe in economies of scale, 35 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 2: and so there's something really frustrating about only having one kid. 36 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:43,839 Speaker 1: I need to scale this enterprise. It's going so well. 37 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:46,760 Speaker 1: We can definitely add more. We need more division of labor, 38 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 1: more specialization in the household. We've got it under control totally. 39 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:53,560 Speaker 1: And the thing is if you space them correctly, you 40 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 1: can I think three years that's what we have is 41 00:01:56,600 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 1: good because you can hand down the crib and the 42 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:02,280 Speaker 1: high chain and you know, the the car seats and 43 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:05,280 Speaker 1: stuff like at the exact right time to not you know, 44 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:08,359 Speaker 1: not need new ones. Do it too soon though, and 45 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 1: you're gonna need two high chairs and two cribs. 46 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 2: And yeah, you can stack them on top of each other, though, 47 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 2: right you can. 48 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:14,800 Speaker 1: It works. 49 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 2: I mean, Carol, I feel like you've long been an 50 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 2: inspiration for me, especially because raising three kids in New 51 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 2: York City, which you know you were doing up until 52 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 2: the pandemic, attempted to make everybody's life hell, and you. 53 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 1: Made the rational decision to escape. 54 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:31,640 Speaker 2: But it's the thing that I struggle with is like, 55 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 2: if I want to have three or four or even 56 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 2: like five kids, like the the Hannah's Children vision, Like 57 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 2: what is the way to get them all on and 58 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:43,000 Speaker 2: off the subway? Frequently I kind of don't understand from 59 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 2: like a people wrangling standpoint, how the mechanics of that 60 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:49,240 Speaker 2: works when you're dealing with like rush hour trains. 61 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:52,360 Speaker 1: I think you end up putting the older kids in 62 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 1: charge of like, Okay, you're getting these two, I'm getting 63 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:58,680 Speaker 1: these two. Let's do it. Also, I love the idea 64 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:01,239 Speaker 1: of you having five kids because you say I'm an inspiration. 65 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 1: You are such an inspiration. You are quite young, and 66 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 1: you have your act so together, you know what, you believe, 67 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 1: you are in a great marriage, you know, and you 68 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:15,399 Speaker 1: have a child already, And I just I think you're 69 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 1: wonderful and like so advanced and such an inspiration to 70 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 1: I think young people everywhere. Oh, I want you to 71 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:26,919 Speaker 1: go on the road and tell people how to do it. Well. 72 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 1: The problem is like, dispositionally, I don't want to tell 73 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 1: people how to live their lives at the same libertarian 74 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:36,200 Speaker 1: but what I did anyway, you know it's possible. 75 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 2: I mean, I think the thing that's really frustrating to 76 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 2: me is like it feels like people live in this 77 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 2: world of buying it like very false choices and binary 78 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 2: where it's like either you have to be full on 79 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 2: feminist girl mossing it up and wait until you're forty 80 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 2: five to have kids and make sure you freeze your eggs, 81 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 2: or you have to be like barefoot and pregnant eternally 82 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 2: in the kitchen. And to me, this's just like it's 83 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 2: such a pointless conversation that people have surround troud wifery 84 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 2: and motherhood because like, this isn't actually how people operate 85 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:07,800 Speaker 2: in the wild, right. I have a job. I also 86 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 2: have a child who I spend a lot of time with. 87 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 2: There are lots of people who have these sort of 88 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 2: hybrid arrangements, and there are also lots of people who 89 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:17,840 Speaker 2: maybe they have one vision for the timeline that these 90 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:20,040 Speaker 2: things will happen at. But then, I mean, your story 91 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 2: is I think definitely a point like a story in 92 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 2: this favor where it's like, you don't know on what 93 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 2: so now timeline things are going to pan out for you. 94 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 2: And how frustrating and frankly disrespectful for people to be 95 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:35,720 Speaker 2: told that, like, oh, well, you're doing it wrong if 96 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 2: in fact there's a bunch of circumstances where like it's 97 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:41,280 Speaker 2: actually quite prudent to wait until you're in a good partnership, 98 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:44,279 Speaker 2: ideally a good you know, covenantal marriage before you begin 99 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:46,600 Speaker 2: to bring a bunch of children into the mix. And like, 100 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 2: for lots of people, it seems like the coupling upside 101 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 2: of things is happening later and later, and they're not 102 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 2: feeling stable and secure in that. I'm a little bit 103 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:56,920 Speaker 2: less sympathetic to the oh, the finances aren't in order 104 00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 2: type of argument, because I think people kind of don't 105 00:04:59,839 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 2: re lize how inexpensive having a child can be and 106 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:06,680 Speaker 2: how you don't necessarily have to have, you know, every 107 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:09,480 Speaker 2: child in their own room or every child going to 108 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:13,000 Speaker 2: a for your ivy league institution, like you have a 109 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:16,039 Speaker 2: lot of options beyond that, and people are unimaginative with 110 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:20,039 Speaker 2: their sense of what having a child actually entails. And 111 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:22,680 Speaker 2: I think that our parenting culture suffers because of that, 112 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:24,920 Speaker 2: because we believe that it has to be so much 113 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 2: more complex with you know, five summer camps that all costs, 114 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:30,119 Speaker 2: you know whatever, three thousand and four thousand dollars apiece 115 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 2: for every kid, and it's like, well, no, wonder, it 116 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:36,920 Speaker 2: seems unfathomably expensive, But that's negotiable. That's something that's optional. 117 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 2: And I wish more young women didn't feel shame about 118 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:42,719 Speaker 2: the timeline or trajectory that they're on, but did do 119 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:45,600 Speaker 2: a little bit more rethinking, Like it's not necessarily as 120 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 2: binary as work or quit. It's not necessarily as binary 121 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 2: as have your finances perfectly an order or be destitute. 122 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:53,280 Speaker 2: There's a lot of range that a lot of people 123 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 2: are working. 124 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:57,040 Speaker 1: With, absolutely, and your whole economy is of scale thing too, 125 00:05:57,240 --> 00:05:59,160 Speaker 1: a lot of the things that people think is going 126 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 1: to cost you know, you don't buy five cribs, You 127 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 1: buy the one crib and you pass it down. And 128 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:06,159 Speaker 1: I heard one time somebody says something like, oh, you know, 129 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:08,159 Speaker 1: I grew up poor, We grew up with hand me downs, 130 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 1: and I was like, I don't know how rich I 131 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 1: need to be that my kids are not going to 132 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:14,920 Speaker 1: be wearing each other's hand me down. It's like you are. 133 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:17,680 Speaker 1: They're all wearing each other's hand me downs forever. Like 134 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 1: it's definitely like, oh, you need a new pair of cleats, 135 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:21,680 Speaker 1: Let's go see if your brother has an old pair. 136 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:25,360 Speaker 1: And that's how I think it's supposed to go. You're 137 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 1: so right, though, And I think about this a lot. 138 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 1: Where people are just maybe it's because of the online 139 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:32,920 Speaker 1: culture and they think that you could put everything neatly 140 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:36,720 Speaker 1: into a box of you know, girl boss or trad wife, 141 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:40,360 Speaker 1: but most people are a some combination. And just because 142 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 1: you think your life is going to go a certain 143 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:45,720 Speaker 1: way doesn't mean it will. I when I got married, 144 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:47,360 Speaker 1: our plan was I was going to be a stay 145 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 1: at home mom, and then I opened an unrelated business, 146 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 1: and then I got into journalism, and you know, you 147 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:56,040 Speaker 1: just don't know where life is going to take you, 148 00:06:56,080 --> 00:06:59,160 Speaker 1: so you can't have what you're doing in this moment 149 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 1: be or a identity. And I think that's the thing 150 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 1: that people don't understand. They're scrambling around for like what 151 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:06,800 Speaker 1: am I going to be? Well, maybe just don't think 152 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:08,360 Speaker 1: of it like that, Maybe think about what you're going 153 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 1: to going to do instead, And it's it's a tougher 154 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 1: ask because what am I going to be? Sort of 155 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 1: gives you the roadmap, but nobody is just that one thing. 156 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 2: You know. The Drake album More Life, hmm, this is 157 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:26,360 Speaker 2: I feel like my mantra and probably yours too, Like 158 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 2: both of us have a little bit of this, like 159 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 2: this antsiness, this eagerness to like stick our hands in 160 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 2: a million different parts, even if we're overextended, like I've 161 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 2: always had this. 162 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, Iggy Pop puts it as like luss for life 163 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 1: right in right, it's Rake World, It's more Life. 164 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 2: But there's a little bit in the sense of just 165 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 2: like you know, it's it. I think there's this narrative 166 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 2: out there that's like, once you have a child, your 167 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 2: life is over. Your life must be and say goodbye 168 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 2: to going out and to the fancy restaurants and to 169 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:54,760 Speaker 2: parties with your friends, and you know, forget about throwing 170 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 2: a house party ever again. You really have to step 171 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 2: into this, you know, different state of and in some 172 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 2: ways it's true, right, because you can't do cocaine and 173 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 2: stay out till I am if you. 174 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 1: Have a newborn that you need to nurse, right like obviously, yeah, 175 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 1: but until I become a toddler. 176 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 2: At least, you know, yeah, then you and the toddler 177 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 2: can be on the exact same But there's something so 178 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 2: frustrating about like having maintaining a lust for life, maintaining 179 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 2: a sense of more, a sense that you know, I 180 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 2: am infinitely capable and that my life isn't over and 181 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 2: I'm not waiting for some other stage to begin. But 182 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 2: these things can coexist at once. You know, your child 183 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 2: can be beautifully fit in to your sort of normal life. 184 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 2: You will have to change some components, and your values 185 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 2: and priorities might change. That's all like an appropriate and 186 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:47,679 Speaker 2: very healthy thing. That's also just something that naturally happens 187 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:50,559 Speaker 2: as we grow up and as we age. But it's 188 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:52,680 Speaker 2: always been really frustrating to me that people have this 189 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 2: like stupid kind of sad narrative that sells woman short. Yeah, 190 00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 2: that's this one of like, oh, well, you know, now 191 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:01,680 Speaker 2: you're just releive to the status of mother. It's like 192 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 2: I am mother, and I am also a whole bunch 193 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:06,199 Speaker 2: of other things I wants. Yeah, I think my child 194 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 2: is well served by me doing. 195 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 1: That absolutely, and that lust for life, I think the 196 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:13,960 Speaker 1: older you get, it's so easy to lose it. It's 197 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 1: so easy to stop listening to music, for example. I 198 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:18,679 Speaker 1: think that that's something that a lot of women hit 199 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 1: a certain age and they don't listen to new music anymore, 200 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 1: or even old music, just kind of don't do it. 201 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:25,959 Speaker 1: I went through a phase of that myself for sure, 202 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 1: But you know, loving everything and wanting to be part 203 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:32,720 Speaker 1: of everything. I don't think you need to hit an 204 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 1: age where you're no longer in the mix and you're 205 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 1: just relegated to this one thing. I love your point 206 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 1: of view on this, and I'm not kidding. I think 207 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:44,040 Speaker 1: you should be touring the country speaking to young women. 208 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 1: You can give them the libertarian like. You don't have 209 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:48,920 Speaker 1: to follow what I'm saying, but maybe do it. 210 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 2: Maybe this is the better way. 211 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:52,719 Speaker 1: Maybe you know, maybe you vote for this. 212 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 2: Oh okay, I'm so close to being an America expert, 213 00:09:56,040 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 2: which is what I've termed somebody who's visited all fifty states. 214 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 2: So I do kind of want to come up with 215 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 2: an excuse to go on across country to that, mostly 216 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:06,680 Speaker 2: because I need to knock off the Dakotas and I 217 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 2: don't know how to do this, and it seems selfish 218 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 2: to drag my entire family on a North Dakota South 219 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 2: Dakota vacation that they definitely don't want to go on, 220 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 2: just so I can check this box. 221 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 1: I don't know if that's selfish, but I literately I 222 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 1: feel so close. 223 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 2: I'm a completionist, a geographic completionist, and there's something really exciting, 224 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 2: even though obviously, you know, I don't fully know every 225 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 2: nook and cranny of America. You know, I was just 226 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:32,199 Speaker 2: in Maine, but I only saw a tiny little portion 227 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 2: of Maine for just a few days at a time. 228 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 2: But there is still something really beautiful about feeling like 229 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 2: I have a taste of every single region, every single state. 230 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:42,080 Speaker 2: You know. I've spent a little of time chatting with 231 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:44,719 Speaker 2: people or eating their food, and I don't know, I 232 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 2: think a lot of New Yorkers have this like obnoxious 233 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 2: and I say this about myself because I live in Queens. 234 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:51,960 Speaker 2: They have this obnoxious view of like New York is 235 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:54,600 Speaker 2: the center of the New Years, as we could ever compare. 236 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:59,679 Speaker 1: It's almost like a small town. Yeah, like thinking I know, 237 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 1: I know, I was such. I was so like that, 238 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 1: Like why would I go anywhere else? I'm in New 239 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 1: York on my worst days, I think I am that. 240 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 1: But I do also think, like, you know, being. 241 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:13,719 Speaker 2: Deliberate about cultivating an appreciation for like what is there 242 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 2: to love in Oklahoma? Like what's the Alabama? Turns out 243 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 2: there's actually a lot. And I feel like, I this 244 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:22,800 Speaker 2: is really dorky. But I feel as though I have 245 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:26,560 Speaker 2: this like patriotism that swells up within me and I 246 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:29,599 Speaker 2: can experience it and indulge it through travel. And I 247 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 2: think that's a good thing because libertarians are sometimes so 248 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:35,319 Speaker 2: dispositionally oriented toward burn it all down. 249 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 1: I was not gonna say, you're sounding a little conservative. 250 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:45,320 Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, I think I do have legitimate, like 251 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:48,679 Speaker 2: appreciation for this thing that we call the American Project 252 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:52,439 Speaker 2: and for you know what the Framers and the founders intended. 253 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 2: One of the ways that I realize that or sort 254 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:58,360 Speaker 2: of live that out is by you know, hopping on 255 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 2: a plane and going and eating a bun to clams 256 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:03,200 Speaker 2: and oysters in Maine, you know, just over a two 257 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 2: day trip or whatever. Or my husband I have road 258 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 2: trip between New York and Texas like twelve times, and 259 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:10,520 Speaker 2: we take a different route every time. That's awesome in 260 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:12,680 Speaker 2: part so that we can see, like what's going on 261 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 2: in this new place, but this also results in a 262 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 2: lot of like, oh crap, we're in the middle of 263 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 2: Ohio and we have nothing to do. 264 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:21,760 Speaker 1: We're so bored, right, Yeah, it's it's tough. Ohio is tough, 265 00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:26,680 Speaker 1: my sister, I'm least from Ohio. I shouldn't. I shouldn't. 266 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:29,199 Speaker 1: I shouldn't randomly insult Ohio like that. 267 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:32,320 Speaker 2: I think. My favorite place that I've stumbled across so 268 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 2: far is like the Gulf Coast of Alabama, Like Fair Hope, 269 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:39,199 Speaker 2: Alabama is has an intense, like Marti gra culture, which 270 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 2: I really enjoy and appreciate. And then also just like 271 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:44,840 Speaker 2: I don't know, based off of my random walking around, 272 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:47,840 Speaker 2: like seems like a very high proportion of lesbians convered 273 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:48,720 Speaker 2: to straight people. 274 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:51,080 Speaker 1: Okay, who knew? 275 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:54,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, sort of like a cutely outdoorsy, very good community vibes, 276 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 2: pretty good food scene, Like I don't know. I was 277 00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 2: kind of shocked to discover that it would actually, I think, 278 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:02,079 Speaker 2: be a place I could see myself living. 279 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break and be right 280 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 1: back on the Carol Marcowitch Show. Another possible idea for you, 281 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 1: because again we have that thing where we're doing a 282 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:16,600 Speaker 1: million things at the same time. I something like a 283 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 1: travel I don't know site that does kind of underrated 284 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 1: places or places you might not have heard of. I 285 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 1: could see you being very good at that. Like again, 286 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 1: it could go hand in hand with your Let me 287 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 1: tell the children what they should be doing, and I can. 288 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 2: Tell the adults where they should be visiting. The problem is, 289 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 2: I think the kids these days like the Zoomers. They 290 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 2: don't listen to me. I feel even though I'm I 291 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 2: was born in nineteen ninety six. I think I'm technically 292 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:45,280 Speaker 2: a zoomer, depending on how you calculate it. I feel 293 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:47,839 Speaker 2: so woefully out of touch. I think in part because 294 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 2: I did everything on a sort of like you know, 295 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 2: slightly yah faster timeline, and so I feel also like 296 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 2: my cohort, like I feel strongly like disillusion slightly ironic millennial, 297 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:01,520 Speaker 2: which I'm not saying is a good thing, Like I 298 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 2: wish I would assume or they seem better. 299 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know the millennials. I used to be 300 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 1: pretty tough on them, you know, because I'm a Generation X. Yeah, 301 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 1: they're the generation right under you. The generation under you 302 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 1: is always the worst, right, But I feel like the 303 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 1: millennials got you know, a little bit too much complaining, 304 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:24,480 Speaker 1: especially for me. They're far far better than this new 305 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 1: you know gen z thing. I apologize Millennials. I really 306 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 1: didn't mean it. 307 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 2: Well, everyone got so mad at them for all the 308 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:37,160 Speaker 2: avocado toast and sort of the frivolous spending. But then 309 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 2: now it looks a little bit silly because it was like, 310 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:41,720 Speaker 2: for a while, we truly did have such like a 311 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 2: VC cash infusion into a lot of these sort of 312 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 2: sharing economy and kick economy businesses, and you know, we 313 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:51,000 Speaker 2: should have just probably spent less time doing sort of 314 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:54,360 Speaker 2: dumb think pieces criticizing them for their choices, and more 315 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 2: time just waiting for these businesses to end up not 316 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 2: profitable or end up being really really bad models, because 317 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 2: I mean, people got a little bit overhyped and the 318 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 2: bubble burst, and we could have just let the cycle 319 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 2: run its course, and instead we felt the need to 320 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 2: just like hector other choices. 321 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 1: I did hector that much. Again, I'm sorry, Millennials, what 322 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 1: do you worry about. 323 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 2: What do I worry about? I think the main thing 324 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 2: right now is the future that is brought into existence 325 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 2: by reproductive tech. And I mean more than just IVF. 326 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 2: I mean IVM and IVG, the sort of new incarnations 327 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 2: of that, the more advanced technology that may come to 328 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:43,520 Speaker 2: replace IVF. But I also mean like gene editing of 329 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 2: embryos and the ways in which this sort of warps 330 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 2: what family life means, and the types of choices that 331 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 2: women are expected to make. So not the types of 332 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 2: choices that are available to women, but I'm worried a 333 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 2: little bit about, like what happened and when companies start 334 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 2: incentivizing women to freeze their eggs and to engage some 335 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 2: of these technologies in an effort for them to basically 336 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 2: push off their child bearing years until way later, to 337 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:14,080 Speaker 2: the point where okay, well, in some sense, it's nice 338 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 2: for a woman who's in her forties or fifties to 339 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 2: be able to have children that she might have thought 340 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:21,520 Speaker 2: she was unable to have. But in another sense, it's 341 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 2: a lot harder to raise those kids into the healthy 342 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 2: parenting culture when your parents are dying or you're in 343 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 2: the elder care stage of life. Fore, you no longer 344 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 2: have a support system because Frank fifty five is a 345 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 2: little late to be having a toddler. That's right if 346 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 2: you're a woman, and I worry a little bit. 347 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 1: Man. My husband always says, you know, having kids is 348 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 1: a young man's game, and he's right. It's not easy 349 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 1: to chase around a toddler. And I always say, you 350 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 1: know these people who are like, oh, mc jagger had 351 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 1: a baby at eighty, you know eighty, Like you're not 352 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 1: mc jagger, you don't have a staff like I got 353 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 1: a McJagger. 354 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 2: I also get the sense that mc jagger is on 355 00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:59,040 Speaker 2: the more eryle side, Like I don't get the sense 356 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 2: that he has any difficulties with conception. I would. Yeah, 357 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:06,200 Speaker 2: It's it's sad to me that there's been this cultural 358 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:09,040 Speaker 2: narrative that we I think the fourth wave feminism has 359 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 2: taught women that you can basically, you know, you know, 360 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:15,119 Speaker 2: wait and see, like hold on, wait, like focus on 361 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 2: other things, have your fun, have your career, wait, wait, wait, 362 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:20,359 Speaker 2: it's always there, and it's like it really is not, 363 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:23,880 Speaker 2: and that you might be setting yourself up for heartaches 364 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:26,160 Speaker 2: that you're not really anticipating whether that heart itch comes 365 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:29,359 Speaker 2: in the form of struggles with conception or miscarriage, or 366 00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:32,879 Speaker 2: you know, the awfulness of being sandwiched between taking care 367 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:34,640 Speaker 2: of a toddler and dealing with older care. 368 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 1: Sure, just not being there for your kids as they 369 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 1: get older. I'm forty seven. We have three kids. I 370 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 1: wish we had a fourth. I do, but you know, 371 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:46,679 Speaker 1: we never we stopped at three, that was it. But 372 00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:49,399 Speaker 1: I would never be like, oh, let's let's do this now. 373 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:52,199 Speaker 1: Just had to have a baby at forty seven. I 374 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:54,960 Speaker 1: know people do it, God bless them. But my mom 375 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:58,439 Speaker 1: my in laws are so involved in being with my kids. 376 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 1: We get to like travel and do our work stuff 377 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 1: that we wouldn't get to do without them. And I 378 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:06,399 Speaker 1: don't know how I would do it if I had 379 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:08,440 Speaker 1: to have a baby right now, and it would be 380 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:12,240 Speaker 1: a real difficulty and I would miss so much of 381 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:13,920 Speaker 1: their life. Yeah. 382 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:17,919 Speaker 2: I think people do a good job of anticipating the benefits, 383 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:20,639 Speaker 2: but sometimes a pretty poor job of anticipating the risks 384 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 2: and the costs. And it's hard, right because if that 385 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:27,120 Speaker 2: is the only option available to people, right, I don't 386 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:29,720 Speaker 2: want to deny them that option. I'm worried sort of, 387 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:32,280 Speaker 2: you know, thinking not on the micro level, but more 388 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:35,399 Speaker 2: on the macro level, like if parents today already feel 389 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 2: beleaguered and like our parenting culture has sort of a 390 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 2: deep rot within, especially in the big city urban course. 391 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 2: I don't think that pushing it off and making it 392 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 2: even more clinical than before is the thing that we'll 393 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:51,359 Speaker 2: serve as a corrective to this cultural issue. And in fact, 394 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:54,320 Speaker 2: I fear it really making it worse. And it takes 395 00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 2: a lot for our libertarian to say that. I mean, 396 00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:57,800 Speaker 2: I think this is where my Catholicism is. 397 00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:01,919 Speaker 1: Coming up a conservative as you get older currently on 398 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 1: this issue, I mean completely, You can definitely see my Catholicism, 399 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:09,360 Speaker 1: you know, creeping in here, and I will make no apologies, 400 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 1: right yeah, but it really is something that keeps me 401 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:16,480 Speaker 1: up at night and something where you can never give 402 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:20,080 Speaker 1: this advice in a way that makes somebody feel like 403 00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:24,120 Speaker 1: you're indicting or condemning their choices. But at the same time, 404 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:26,960 Speaker 1: I really really wish people thought a little bit more 405 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 1: deeply about this. I agree. Yeah, We're going to take 406 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:33,200 Speaker 1: a quick break and be right back on the Carol 407 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 1: Marcowitch Show. What advice would you give your sixteen year 408 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:43,400 Speaker 1: old self? Like, what would you tell yourself to do differently, 409 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:46,600 Speaker 1: or maybe not to do differently, maybe to do the same. 410 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 2: I think my very clear answer, my clear verdict is 411 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:56,480 Speaker 2: you will enter college and you will hate it. Drop out, 412 00:19:56,560 --> 00:20:03,000 Speaker 2: cut your losses. I would probably counsel myself to, you know, 413 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 2: only go for like a year or so, get a 414 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:08,199 Speaker 2: sense of ensuring that you're like ensuring that you know 415 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:11,399 Speaker 2: what it's all about, and really make sure. Like I 416 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:14,879 Speaker 2: think that going and dropping out would probably be better 417 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 2: for me than not going at all, because I would 418 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 2: have a sense of what I'm foregoing, and I would 419 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:23,520 Speaker 2: also have a sense of I think, motivation, like there 420 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:27,800 Speaker 2: would be a fire lit beneath me. To avoid that 421 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:31,320 Speaker 2: sort of environment, I went to college at William and Mary, 422 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:34,840 Speaker 2: and I entered in twenty fourteen, the fall that the 423 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:37,919 Speaker 2: Rolling Stone Repokes story was out and the beginning of 424 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:41,159 Speaker 2: a lot of crazy social justice in sanity and me 425 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:43,600 Speaker 2: too related insanity and you know, the era of Title 426 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:48,240 Speaker 2: nine due process violating campus kangaroo courts, and it felt 427 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:51,919 Speaker 2: like an environment that was full on in a social 428 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:54,640 Speaker 2: justice frenzy. It was an environment where as a writer, 429 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:56,639 Speaker 2: you know, I got sort of like soft canceled on 430 00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 2: campus and was extremely unpopular because of the things that 431 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:02,360 Speaker 2: I was writing, and it was also just, I think, 432 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:05,919 Speaker 2: a pretty unintellectual environment. And you couple that with the 433 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:09,520 Speaker 2: fact that college is so obscenely expensive and my parents 434 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 2: gave me some money to pay for it, but I 435 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:13,960 Speaker 2: was also expected to, you know, commit a fair amount 436 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:15,239 Speaker 2: of money to pay for it. So it was not 437 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:18,120 Speaker 2: just like a spend whatever you want type scenario. Far 438 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 2: from it, and I felt I just remember feeling like 439 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 2: this is a bad deal. I care about learning, I 440 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:30,239 Speaker 2: love learning, I'm deeply curious, but this feels like an 441 00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:34,679 Speaker 2: environment that is just it's about brainwashing, it's about intellectual conformity, 442 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:37,440 Speaker 2: and you really get punished if you deviate from the herd. 443 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 2: And I wish i'd like fully embrace the autodidact life 444 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 2: and move to like Mexico and just compact it to 445 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:46,840 Speaker 2: Spanish immersion legitimately, like yeah, I speak a little bit 446 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 2: of Spanish, but not super well. And I wish I'd 447 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:52,720 Speaker 2: really gone all in on that and just been focused on, 448 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:55,760 Speaker 2: like in my free time, almost the will hunting approach 449 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:57,919 Speaker 2: of like all you need is a library card, that's it, 450 00:21:58,240 --> 00:21:58,680 Speaker 2: go read. 451 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:02,959 Speaker 1: I love that. I hope that more kids take a 452 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:05,439 Speaker 1: different path. It's very hard, you know. I know with 453 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 1: my own kids, like when I'm like, maybe you don't 454 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 1: go to college, like, oh, we're going to college, Like 455 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:13,439 Speaker 1: they're just in their own heads. They're they're in for 456 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:16,240 Speaker 1: the experience, they're not trying to deviate from it. But 457 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:19,639 Speaker 1: I hope if my kids enter and don't feel like 458 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:21,119 Speaker 1: they belong there or feel like they want to do 459 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:23,480 Speaker 1: something else, I hope that they take that path. 460 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 2: Well, It's something I think about so much, like I wish, 461 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:29,919 Speaker 2: I hope that I have the balls to stick to 462 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:32,160 Speaker 2: my guns here. That's a really mixed metaphor. I hope 463 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 2: I have the balls to stick to my guns here 464 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 2: when my son, you know, is eighteen, But I really 465 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,640 Speaker 2: want to present a full array of options to him 466 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:42,960 Speaker 2: and to all future kids where it's like, you could 467 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:46,040 Speaker 2: choose trade school, you could choose a four year college 468 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:48,960 Speaker 2: so you know, figure out some ways to pay for it, buddy, 469 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:52,480 Speaker 2: you could choose some sort of other creative path. But 470 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 2: at the age of maybe seventeen, not the age of 471 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:57,400 Speaker 2: twenty two or twenty three, the age of like seventeen, 472 00:22:57,640 --> 00:22:59,159 Speaker 2: you need to be thinking what is it that I 473 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:02,479 Speaker 2: am uniquely gifted that and what are the waste that 474 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:04,399 Speaker 2: I can make money with that? And it doesn't have 475 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:06,639 Speaker 2: to you don't have to have a perfectly sketched out plan, 476 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:10,840 Speaker 2: and you know things can change on you. But I 477 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:14,640 Speaker 2: just find this whole trend of like people will bankroll 478 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,159 Speaker 2: their kids college educations, and their kids will be an 479 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 2: undecided major and declared major until they're twenty one or 480 00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:23,719 Speaker 2: twenty two, and the kid wastes a bunch of money 481 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 2: and then they graduate and they still don't really know 482 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,679 Speaker 2: what they want to do. And look, I love iterative processes. 483 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 2: I'm all for trial and error, but like, come on, 484 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:34,879 Speaker 2: this is a rescue for wasting money and wasting time. 485 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:36,919 Speaker 2: And I just don't think we parents need to be 486 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:39,399 Speaker 2: guiding children to not permit them to do that. 487 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 1: Totally. Well, I've loved this conversation. You are just one 488 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:48,160 Speaker 1: of my absolute favorites. End us here with your best 489 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 1: tip for my listeners on how they can improve their lives. 490 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:55,680 Speaker 2: Okay, play like a child. Next time you see a trampoline, 491 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 2: please go jump on it. Next time you see the ocean, 492 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:02,200 Speaker 2: run into it time kids or having a monkey bar 493 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:05,560 Speaker 2: contest like you enter, I just think that you know 494 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:08,639 Speaker 2: the Twitter meme is like go out and touch grass 495 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 2: and it's like no, actually, just like start playing again. People, 496 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 2: get off of your damn screens and just embrace the tactile, beautiful, 497 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:19,719 Speaker 2: risky world out there. And I just I guarantee it 498 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:21,280 Speaker 2: will do good things to your soul. 499 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:24,359 Speaker 1: I love it. She is Liz will sign up for 500 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:27,600 Speaker 1: a reason. Roundup, check out just asking questions. Thank you 501 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 1: so much for coming on, Liz. 502 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:30,800 Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Carol, It's always a pleasure. 503 00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:33,440 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for joining us on the Carol Marco 504 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:36,000 Speaker 1: Which show. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.