Speaker 1: You're listening to Asia Centric from Bloomberg Intelligence, the podcast
Speaker 1: that pulls back the curtain on global business so you
Speaker 1: can invest better across the Asia Pacific rim. I'm John
Speaker 1: Lee in Hong Kong.
Speaker 2: And I'm Katehmitriyeva with Bloomberg News, also in Hong Kong.
Speaker 2: India has been a bright spot globally this year as
Speaker 2: the fastest growing large economy in the world, but second
Speaker 2: quarter data last week showed there are some cracks emerging.
Speaker 1: The economy was broadly expected to slow later this year,
Speaker 1: and there are signs that it's already beginning as consumers
Speaker 1: and government spending pullback. While some economists were surprised by
Speaker 1: the lower than expected growth, at least one analyst has
Speaker 1: been bearish on the India story for a few years.
Speaker 2: Yes. Joining us this week is Miguel Chanko, Chief Emerging
Speaker 2: Asia Economist at Pantheon Macroeconomics. Welcome Miguel, Thanks.
Speaker 3: Guys, thanks for having Megail.
Speaker 2: You've been more critical than peers on India's economy for
Speaker 2: a few years now. Your outlook on GDP is the
Speaker 2: lowest among economists in our survey. Why is that? What
Speaker 2: leads you to that view.
Speaker 3: I think one of the main reasons is sort of
Speaker 3: an overestimation of how fast India is really growing. So
Speaker 3: if you go back to the last FISCO year, for example,
Speaker 3: so India supposedly grew by eight point something percent, right
Speaker 3: if I were to ask you, so for example, I'm
Speaker 3: the questionnaire here in you two or the guests, if
Speaker 3: I were to ask you, how much of that eight
Speaker 3: percent actually came from private consumption? In you main growth engine?
Speaker 3: What percentage of proportion will you put to that eight percent?
Speaker 1: At over half.
Speaker 3: Less than thirty percent? Okay, So over half of what
Speaker 3: contributed to India's supposedly strong eight percent growth rate last
Speaker 3: year came from a component in GDP called statistical discrepancies.
Speaker 3: So that's essentially the difference between the GDP by expenditure
Speaker 3: approach versus the GDP by industry calculation. So on the
Speaker 3: expenditure side, this unaccounted residual accounted for fifty two percent
Speaker 3: of growth last year. For me, looking at the numbers,
Speaker 3: that's not something tangible I can hang on to India's
Speaker 3: growth story. You know, I'm trying to forecast different avenues
Speaker 3: of growth consumption, government spending, investment, exports, and import forecasting
Speaker 3: statistical discopmancies is not is a false errand and something
Speaker 3: that's not really reflective of real economic activity on the ground.
Speaker 3: So this huge boost from this sort of statistical noise
Speaker 3: essentially flattered much of growth story last risk of year,
Speaker 3: and it masked a lot of the weakness underneath, one
Speaker 3: of them being private consumption, which grew about four percent
Speaker 3: less BISK of year. No one wants to talk about this,
Speaker 3: but four percent private suffering growth in India is the
Speaker 3: weakest it's been in a decade plus if we sort
Speaker 3: of exclude the COVID year. So you know, the slowdown
Speaker 3: in India that we're seeing now is really because this boost,
Speaker 3: this lift and flattery from statistical discrepancies is now starting
Speaker 3: to come out of the headline GDP growth numbers, and
Speaker 3: that's sort of revealing an underlying weakness.
Speaker 1: Mcguirl, Could you flesh out more of this statistical discrepancy?
Speaker 1: Like what is it? Can you possibly explain it in
Speaker 1: layman terms?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I wish I could, but officially it's
Speaker 3: like I said, it's a difference between if you measured
Speaker 3: GDP by expenditure, so that's GDP you know, looking at
Speaker 3: components like private consumption, investment, government spending. That's one measure
Speaker 3: of GDP. Right, The measure of GDP is GDP by industry,
Speaker 3: So if you look at agriculture, manufacturing services, that's so
Speaker 3: that's the output side. So in India is some a
Speaker 3: quirky national account system. There is normally a small difference
Speaker 3: between the two. Normally they match, but in the last
Speaker 3: fiscal year there was quite a big difference. And this
Speaker 3: difference is represented as statistical discrepancies in the expenditure approach,
Speaker 3: and this accounted for, like I said, as fifty two
Speaker 3: percent of the growth UH in the last VESCO year,
Speaker 3: which again, like I said, it's nothing tangible that we
Speaker 3: can hold on too. So if you were, you know,
Speaker 3: banking on eight percent growth when fifty percent of that
Speaker 3: was driven by this noise in the GDP numbers, then yes,
Speaker 3: call me skeptical, call me bearersh I'm just looking at
Speaker 3: what I can actually hang my hat on, which is,
Speaker 3: you know, the concrete aspects of GDP by expenditure, consumption, investment,
Speaker 3: and a lot of this were weak last VESCAL year
Speaker 3: and are still somewhat relatively subbuted this fistical year at
Speaker 3: least in Q one.
Speaker 2: Has that been always the case where there's sort of
Speaker 2: the statistical discrepancies coming in, or was it just the
Speaker 2: case that last year was just the biggest we've seen.
Speaker 3: It's one of the biggest sort of discrepancies that I've seen.
Speaker 3: At least if you go back forty years before COVID,
Speaker 3: this component has gone down to share a GDP, which
Speaker 3: is a good thing because you know, measuring economic activity
Speaker 3: has become a bit more accurate over the course of
Speaker 3: history of a course of that time. But since COVID,
Speaker 3: there's been like an increase in this component's impact on GDP,
Speaker 3: at least headline GP since twenty twenty. So we're seeing
Speaker 3: this somewhat worrying trend. Maybe there's changes in the structure
Speaker 3: of being this economy that are not being captured or
Speaker 3: what have you. But yeah, at least in terms of
Speaker 3: the growth story, last year's statistical discrepancy contribution was one
Speaker 3: of the highest I've seen in many years.
Speaker 2: Does the gross value add get rid of that? I
Speaker 2: know there's two readings. India is an interesting economy. We
Speaker 2: don't just have GDP, we also have GVA. Does that
Speaker 2: get rid of some of that noise because economists do
Speaker 2: typically see the GVA as a better reading because it
Speaker 2: strips out the effects of transfer payments for taxes and subsidies,
Speaker 2: and that was actually above forecasts for Q two for example.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it does no wig, but even within that measure
Speaker 3: that the transfer and subsidies bits contributed quite significantly last
Speaker 3: year's growth story. Again, what does that mean for economic activity? Minimal?
Speaker 3: So if you look at what's tangible we can actually
Speaker 3: forecast and compare against monthly high frequency numbers. It was
Speaker 3: tangible that for me has been disappointing about INDUS growth stories.
Speaker 2: Up.
Speaker 3: Yes I've been very snoy but because really I've just
Speaker 3: tried to focus on what actually concrete that's happening in
Speaker 3: the economy based on India's national accounts, I'm not trying
Speaker 3: to These numbers are there for everyone to see. And
Speaker 3: it's quite funny like sort of maybe six or nine
Speaker 3: months ago when when this whole issue is that this
Speaker 3: while discrepancies became something that even the Chief Economic Advisor
Speaker 3: of India had to address at one point because it
Speaker 3: was so egregious that lift that that of the headline
Speaker 3: that he had to come out saying this is just
Speaker 3: sort of you know how India's GP growth headline is calculated,
Speaker 3: and it's a component that meaner birds and ebbs and flow,
Speaker 3: so there is a recognition that it's imperfect. But yeah,
Speaker 3: obviously the mainstream story is still how India is one
Speaker 3: of the main performers in the world, and that sort
Speaker 3: of seems to grab the most media attentionet and rightly so.
Speaker 3: But for me who has to look into the detail
Speaker 3: detail has been worrying in that respect.
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Speaker 1: lot of people who look at India are used to
Speaker 1: this eight percent growth. Do you think it's been overstated
Speaker 1: and what's the real underlying growth in your view?
Speaker 3: I think underlying growth over the last eighteen months or
Speaker 3: so it's been probably around six percent, and we're starting
Speaker 3: to see someone that convergence now right with that's left
Speaker 3: from systems coming out of the picture. Like I said,
Speaker 3: private consumption in the last fiscally was four percent, which
Speaker 3: is one of the weakest out turns annual alternasi've seen
Speaker 3: in years, stripping out the COVID hits. So underlying momentum
Speaker 3: is far below the sort of seven to eight percent
Speaker 3: rates we've seen before the most recent GTP numbers came
Speaker 3: out because the components of GDP that are like said,
Speaker 3: tangible have been a lot weaker than the headline suggests.
Speaker 2: Can we walk through those components, Like when you're looking
Speaker 2: at the accounts for India, if we're looking at consumer spending,
Speaker 2: a business investment FDI, what are you seeing in those sectors?
Speaker 3: I think certainly one of the bright spots over the
Speaker 3: last few years or so has been investment. You know,
Speaker 3: there's been a real strong momentum in that since COVID,
Speaker 3: and even though there's been somewhat of a moderation over
Speaker 3: the last few quarters, investment still is the main outperformer.
Speaker 3: Looking at the domestic picture, obviously government spending entered somewhat
Speaker 3: of a lull because the election, and like I said,
Speaker 3: prodic consumption has performed historically weak. That aside, though the
Speaker 3: more recent print of seven percent was quite respectable, and
Speaker 3: that sort of matches with some of the consumer services
Speaker 3: that we're seeing in the RPI, where spending intentions are
Speaker 3: starting to take back up again again. If you were
Speaker 3: sort of rank where much of the real growth and
Speaker 3: momentum has been coming from in India, domestically, at least,
Speaker 3: i'd say investment has been the star performer, followed by
Speaker 3: in close second and third sort of disappointing government spending
Speaker 3: and private consumption numbers. In terms of the external side,
Speaker 3: exports have had a fairly good run since since COVID,
Speaker 3: and that's true for a lot of emerging markets in Asia,
Speaker 3: maybe not so much China, but yeah, exports have also
Speaker 3: been quite punchy, if somewhat rocky over the that speak horders,
Speaker 3: but still you know, sort of setting record highs even
Speaker 3: after adjusting for seasonal noise. So exports has in quite
Speaker 3: a strong component of the Indian growth story. And if
Speaker 3: you delve more deeply into that as well, Indian exports
Speaker 3: of services have really boomed since COVID, and it's probably
Speaker 3: one sort of underreported aspect of the numbers we tend
Speaker 3: to as as economists as reporters focus on what's you know,
Speaker 3: reported on a regular basis, and that's mostly sometimes merchandise
Speaker 3: trade numbers. But Indian services exports have really grown substantially
Speaker 3: over the last few years and are now starting to
Speaker 3: compete with merchandise exports in terms of size, which is
Speaker 3: great because that's a fast growing sector. You know, in
Speaker 3: the IT and BPO side, that can really help not
Speaker 3: just with things like the root pea stability, but also
Speaker 3: in general trans of econome activity. It's an industry for
Speaker 3: the future. Sure what is included in.
Speaker 2: That you said it and what other industries are leading
Speaker 2: within that? With services exports.
Speaker 3: VPO, so business process outsourcing say IT services and BPO
Speaker 3: services are typically what account for most of indist service exports.
Speaker 3: Similar sort of with the Philippines in that space where
Speaker 3: IT services and BPO services because of the English language
Speaker 3: skills that sort of trently globally from both Indian and
Speaker 3: Philippines that they've been sort of the main players in
Speaker 3: Asia in this space.
Speaker 1: Is that what Infosys does Companies like.
Speaker 3: That, Yeah, essentially, but are far more diversified than that
Speaker 3: for sure, But yeah, that's one of their business areas
Speaker 3: is that.
Speaker 2: Potentially threatened by artificial intelligence? Are we seeing any potential
Speaker 2: risk there, like this one bright spot or one of
Speaker 2: the bright spots in the economy. Is there a risk of,
Speaker 2: for example, these call centers no longer requiring people being
Speaker 2: taken over by bots or chats. What are your thoughts.
Speaker 3: I'm no expert on AI, but I could definitely see
Speaker 3: that happening, especially at the early stage of any consumer
Speaker 3: facing interaction, right where you kind of filter out what's
Speaker 3: urgent and what can be resolved by simple queries. I
Speaker 3: suspect that we could see some replacement there, especially with
Speaker 3: smaller simple customers service questions. But yeah, we've get to
Speaker 3: see it, at least we get to see it in
Speaker 3: the numbers in terms of service exports. But yeah, sure,
Speaker 3: sort of three five years down the line, I wouldn't
Speaker 3: be surprised if there's some job lost there because of AI.
Speaker 1: Do you expect GDP growth to slow in the coming
Speaker 1: quarters ahead? Especially you sort of mentioned the consumer demand,
Speaker 1: how it's waning in factories are slowing. What are the
Speaker 1: signs right now in the data and the real economy.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I definitely expect to see GDP growth that continue slowing.
Speaker 3: We have forecasts of around the high six percent over
Speaker 3: the next few quarters and sort of turning down to
Speaker 3: the low six early next year and high fives late
Speaker 3: twenty twenty five. So yes, essentially I expect consumer demander
Speaker 3: main fairly sluggish. Yes, we had a good growth print
Speaker 3: for the most recent report, but consumers are still very
Speaker 3: much under pressure in the economy because I feel look
Speaker 3: at the state of their household balance sheets is still
Speaker 3: very much under pressure and much of the minimum moment
Speaker 3: we've seen in consumption has been driven by debts, which
Speaker 3: I don't think is sustainable. There was a huge increase
Speaker 3: in households borrowing sort of during the post COVID reopening period,
Speaker 3: and we're now starting to see this rollover quite sharply investment. Yes, again,
Speaker 3: as I mentioned previously, it has been one of the
Speaker 3: strong points of the India's economy, but I don't really
Speaker 3: expect us to continue, especially in an environment where monetary
Speaker 3: policy is likely to remain quite tight. So we've sort
Speaker 3: of started to see now the in terms of corporate borrowing,
Speaker 3: it hasn't been as strong as as consumer debt, and
Speaker 3: I expect some of the momentum that's left in corporate
Speaker 3: borrowing to start coming down as well as as the
Speaker 3: RBI's industry has from twenty two to twenty twenty three
Speaker 3: start to filter through more to the real economy. So yes,
Speaker 3: in terms of private domestic land, which is what you
Speaker 3: know been broken down to that. It's that's consumption and investment,
Speaker 3: the main, real, big parts of Indias economy. I expect
Speaker 3: these two main areas to cool over the next few years.
Speaker 3: I'm not expecting a crash. Don't get me wrong, right,
Speaker 3: I am bearish on India, but it's not like I'm
Speaker 3: expecting it to be a doomsday scenario. We're in a
Speaker 3: cyclical slowdown and technically these two things will get affected
Speaker 3: by type Monte policy type fiscal policy or Titanic fiscal policy,
Speaker 3: and there's no escaping that.
Speaker 2: I'm curious how much pushback do you get from clients
Speaker 2: or internally on this view.
Speaker 3: Quite a bit, because no one wants to mess with
Speaker 3: India as the drawling of the em side, right, and
Speaker 3: there's a lot of money now the stark market has
Speaker 3: gone gangbusters, and obviously I'm up against that narrative. A
Speaker 3: lot of people tend to lose if I'm right, you know,
Speaker 3: so I don't mind it that. I don't mind that argument. Normally,
Speaker 3: all I have to do is point them to the
Speaker 3: actual statistics. And like I said, fifty two percent of
Speaker 3: growth last FASCO year was from patistical disturpancies. If you
Speaker 3: want to bank on that, that's up to you.
Speaker 1: I don't, yeah, because like, if India grows at the
Speaker 1: low six percent level, look, it's still okay compared to
Speaker 1: any other country. But there's such high exp for India.
Speaker 3: Yes they are, And I'm still really bullish long term
Speaker 3: structurally about Indian growth story. So like I said, typically,
Speaker 3: yes I am on downbeach side, but structurally, India has
Speaker 3: a lot going for it as compared to most em countries.
Speaker 3: You know, it's it's demographic dividend story is still very
Speaker 3: much alive and kicking. There's so much potential for labor
Speaker 3: to move. So forget you know, the increase in the
Speaker 3: workforce over the next few years. The workforce now, and
Speaker 3: there's so much untaped potential there because a lot of
Speaker 3: them are still engaged in agriculture based on the best estimates,
Speaker 3: a lot of that can still move to manufacturing services
Speaker 3: where you know, higher productive areas I'm still very bullish
Speaker 3: about the structural story of India being a democracy more
Speaker 3: stable long term. Yes, it's MESSI but it's more stable
Speaker 3: long term. And you know, high saving, straight high investment
Speaker 3: rates historically is still very much a factor now that's
Speaker 3: going for it. So yeah, yes, I am bullish long term.
Speaker 3: Structurally the story is still very solid. I'm not denying that.
Speaker 3: But tyclically, I think people are sort of underestimating the
Speaker 3: scope of the sharpness of technical slow down over these
Speaker 3: next few years.
Speaker 2: What does that mean more broadly for competition with China?
Speaker 2: For example, We've seen this narrative play out. China's economy
Speaker 2: is structurally slowing, I think, faster than a lot of
Speaker 2: economists had expected. We're not seeing any signs of increased
Speaker 2: fiscal spending to boost that or change that picture. And
Speaker 2: India is also now slowing as well. Does this sort
Speaker 2: of narrow the gap maybe a little bit between those
Speaker 2: two countries, Yeah.
Speaker 3: A little bit, but you kind of have a squint
Speaker 3: to see it. I guess the difference is in scale, right,
Speaker 3: So China is a seventeen point something jillion dollar economy,
Speaker 3: India is three point five at least last year, and
Speaker 3: a seventeen point five trillion dollar economy growing at five
Speaker 3: percent versus a three point five trillion dollar economy at
Speaker 3: seven percent, there's still no match to that. So even
Speaker 3: even the Chinese headline growth is lowered, I looked at
Speaker 3: the numbers on this yesterday. Roughly speaking, in real terms,
Speaker 3: China's growth is producing a new Thailand and Philippines every year.
Speaker 3: In real terms, India's growth Indians growth, Yes, it's at
Speaker 3: a higher seven percent, save a seven eight percent, but
Speaker 3: from a much lower base of a three point five
Speaker 3: trillion to ole economy isn't even producing a whole Vietnam.
Speaker 3: So if you look at that in those terms of
Speaker 3: real you know, dollar output in fishing and justine terms,
Speaker 3: how much these two economists are growing, all Chinese is
Speaker 3: adding to the world economy four times more than what
Speaker 3: India is just because of scale. So yes, there is
Speaker 3: some ketchup there, but again, like I said, you have
Speaker 3: to squint to see it, and it'll probably be retired
Speaker 3: by then. When when when in India actually does ketchup?
Speaker 3: Because it's going to take a long time and the
Speaker 3: scale difference is just so vast that yes, there's ketchup,
Speaker 3: But it's it's minimal.
Speaker 1: Go just to further discuss this point in the relationship
Speaker 1: with China, a lot of people talk about China plus
Speaker 1: one and how India is a big beneficiary, and we've
Speaker 1: seen companies like Apple slow down their production in China
Speaker 1: and produce more in India. Are we starting to see
Speaker 1: these come through in the numbers like the economic GDP numbers.
Speaker 3: It's hard to say, because I mean, yes, yes, I'm
Speaker 3: aware of that trend, and it does benefit India sectorally
Speaker 3: at some level. But if you look at manufacturing as
Speaker 3: a share of GDP and yeah, it's been fairly constant
Speaker 3: around seventeen percent over the last few years. So if
Speaker 3: I was to see a material boost in that story
Speaker 3: of you know, China plus one benefiting the likes of India,
Speaker 3: then I I'd really want to see shares of manufacturing,
Speaker 3: shares of export merchandise export grow as a percentage of
Speaker 3: the economy relative to where they were before. But I mean,
Speaker 3: in this is just one of the main beneficiaries of
Speaker 3: this sort of diversification away from China. Most of this
Speaker 3: is still largely benefiting countries in Asian so you know,
Speaker 3: Vietnams for example, prime beneficiary of the Chinnel plus one story.
Speaker 3: I'd say what's sort of underappreciated on the India side
Speaker 3: is that there are a lot of reasons why companies
Speaker 3: are hesitating to invest more in India in this space.
Speaker 3: So the labor law still remain very strict. As I
Speaker 3: mentioned previously, a lot of the workforce is still tied
Speaker 3: up in agriculture and a lot of that constraint is
Speaker 3: policy based, right. So for example, India has a very
Speaker 3: well known minimum support system for agricultural prices which basically
Speaker 3: guarantee farmers you know who plant rice and wheat and
Speaker 3: what have you, guaranteed income un their produce. Why would
Speaker 3: someone who's forming, who has this risable for lack of
Speaker 3: a better term, take the risk of moving into a
Speaker 3: different sector if they have a guaranteed income, because the
Speaker 3: government in India really supports the agricultural sector to that degree. So, yes,
Speaker 3: there is potential for India to be a bigger player
Speaker 3: in global trade and manufacturing because of the Chinnel plus
Speaker 3: one story, but there are a lot of policy reasons
Speaker 3: why India probably won't read the benefit as fast as
Speaker 3: say others like Vietnam or in Southeast Asia.
Speaker 2: I want to ask about the implications for macro policy
Speaker 2: of slower economy, especially after the second quarter data missed
Speaker 2: even the central bank estimates. Do you see the RBI
Speaker 2: moving faster as a result of that? What are your
Speaker 2: expectations for when they'll start cutting rates?
Speaker 3: I mean, i'd like to think so else my forecasts
Speaker 3: are wrong. So we were sort of above consensus in
Speaker 3: their respect that we expect fifty basis points of cuts
Speaker 3: from DARBA this year, whereas consensus at the moment last
Speaker 3: time I checked at least was twenty five bas points,
Speaker 3: so's not too far. But we're expecting the arbited to
Speaker 3: cut much sooner, so from the October meeting. And yes,
Speaker 3: i'd like to think that because Q two from the
Speaker 3: physically your perspective, Q one missed the RBI's seven point
Speaker 3: one or seven point two forecasts, that they'll start looking
Speaker 3: more into supporting growth. But from what I read about
Speaker 3: what the governor said a few days ago, they already
Speaker 3: have a ready mid excuse for y Q one missed, right,
Speaker 3: so they're blaming the election for it. It sounds like
Speaker 3: there's still no real appetite in the RBI to eat
Speaker 3: monetary policy anytime soon. But I think essentially the RBA
Speaker 3: has been behind the curve in terms of easing because
Speaker 3: we've had core inflation now that that's been historically low
Speaker 3: in India for a number of months, and that's really
Speaker 3: what no RB should be focusing on that because that's
Speaker 3: where the headline wage will eventually converge and follow going forward.
Speaker 3: So yes, I'd like to think that we'll see some
Speaker 3: easing in the immediate future in terms of the RIIS policy,
Speaker 3: But it sounds like, at least from the most recent
Speaker 3: rhetoric from the governor, that they've got ready mid excuse
Speaker 3: why not? Why why do stand pat at least in
Speaker 3: the next meeting?
Speaker 2: Why didn't inflation take hold in India as much as
Speaker 2: in other countries, even neighboring countries.
Speaker 3: Well, much of why India sort of shielded from twenty
Speaker 3: twenty three is because there's been an implicit fix on
Speaker 3: prices in India. So a lot of the all retail
Speaker 3: side to pump prices and stuff is still very much
Speaker 3: managed by huge state owned companies. And yes, India the
Speaker 3: government itself won't say that, you know, we've held prices
Speaker 3: pretty much frozen since the invasion of Ukraine two years ago.
Speaker 3: But that's basically what's happening, what's been happening. So India
Speaker 3: never really felt this huge jump in energy prices the
Speaker 3: same way a lot of economies in the EM space did.
Speaker 3: So that's one big difference. Secondly, India has also been
Speaker 3: one of the main beneficiaries quote unquote to say of
Speaker 3: the scarcity and resource So India blocked wheat if you
Speaker 3: go back two years ago, India blocked wheat exports to
Speaker 3: help the in domestic in fission situation. That at the
Speaker 3: expense of inflation elsewhere. Of course, same thing with rice
Speaker 3: last year. You know, India has been a bit more
Speaker 3: protectionist on the agri side, which has helped to manage
Speaker 3: the domestic mastecture. But like I said, at the expense
Speaker 3: of you know, higher inflation elsewhere where, other countries' injuries
Speaker 3: and our net reed borders of these commodities.
Speaker 2: That could be a whole other conversation fiscal policy, protectionist
Speaker 2: policy versus monetary policy, and controlling inflation.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, it's been an educational discussion on India the way
Speaker 1: it accounts for its GDP and potential cyclical slowdown going forward.
Speaker 1: Thanks Miguel for coming on the show.
Speaker 3: Thank you very much guys for having me. It's been
Speaker 3: a pleasure.
Speaker 1: I'm John Lee in Hong Kong.
Speaker 2: I'm Katadmitriyeva, also in Hong Kong.
Speaker 1: This podcast was produced by Clara Chen and you've been
Speaker 1: listening to the Asia Centric podcast