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Speaker 1: Warning, This podcast contains spoilers for Batman, for The Batman,

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Speaker 1: for various Batman movies, live action films and animation, and

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Speaker 1: probably some Batman comics and Batman the Animated series. If

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Speaker 1: you don't want to be spoiled on various Batman properties,

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Speaker 1: be careful and beware when you enter here. But thanks

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Speaker 1: for listening anyway, Fertile. Hello by is Jason Concepcio, and

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Speaker 1: welcome to next Ry Vision, the Crooked podcast where we

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Speaker 1: dive deep into your favorite shows, movies, comics, and pop culture.

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Speaker 1: This is a continuation of last week's Batman episode. Lots

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Speaker 1: of Batman, Batman, Batman, the Batman Conversations. We're going to

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Speaker 1: with news on previously on, with the trailer release for

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Speaker 1: Obi Wan and more. Rosie Knight and I are gonna

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Speaker 1: have a really fun discussion about our top five Batman

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Speaker 1: movies slashed adaptions. We're gonna be loose with that part

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Speaker 1: of it. And in the hive Mind we talked to

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Speaker 1: Batman executive producer, Hollywood Legend comics historian Michael Uslin, the

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Speaker 1: person who is singularly responsible in many ways for bringing

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Speaker 1: Batman to the screen. Every Batman adaptation that you've seen

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Speaker 1: is likely the work of Michael Uslin. And in the endgame,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna be ranking. Let the pearls hit the floor.

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Speaker 1: Let the pearls hit the flow. We're gonna be ranking

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Speaker 1: our top Thomas and Martha Wayne Murders. But first joining

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Speaker 1: us today writer comics creator extraordinaiy the Great Rosie Night, Rosie,

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Speaker 1: how are you?

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Speaker 2: I'm doing good. I'm so excited. This is such a

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Speaker 2: cool episode.

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Speaker 1: Really really bad bad. Okay, let's get to the news first. Up,

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Speaker 1: Warner Brothers is moving around their release dates. They are

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Speaker 1: changing release dates for The Flash for Aquaman, The Lost Kingdom,

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Speaker 1: and more, and this is mainly due to the fact

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Speaker 1: that the previous release dates came into conflict with the

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Speaker 1: release of the long awaited Avatar Too. People are clamoring

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Speaker 1: in the streets for Avatar Too. They're saying, where is

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Speaker 1: the newest Avatar? Every time I go outside, people are

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Speaker 1: quoting lines, those iconic lines from Avatar, you know the

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Speaker 1: ones I'm talking about. There's so many quotable lines from

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Speaker 1: that first movie, which is right there at top of mind,

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Speaker 1: so present in our pop culture even today. The films

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Speaker 1: that are being moved include DC League of super Pets

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Speaker 1: is going from May twentieth July twenty ninth, The Flash

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Speaker 1: November fourth to June twenty third, twenty twenty three. Aquaman

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Speaker 1: in the Lost Kingdom is December sixteenth to March seventeenth,

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty three. This was the movie that was schedule

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Speaker 1: against the world, beating the long awaited Avatar. Too. Wonka,

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Speaker 1: in which the tagline being this Wonka fucks, starring Timothy Chellame,

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Speaker 1: goes from March seventeenth, twenty twenty three to December fifteenth.

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Speaker 1: Shazam Fury the Gods December sixteenth, and then Folks Make two.

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Speaker 1: The Trench has been slated for August fourth, twenty twenty three.

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Speaker 1: Any reactions to this and I know that you can't

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Speaker 1: wait for Avatar tous It's all you talk about, Rosie.

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Speaker 2: Wait to never see Avatartu. My Avatar feelings run deep.

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Speaker 2: I'm sad I have to wait so long to see Aquaman.

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Speaker 2: I love at the first Aquaman movie, as I really

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Speaker 2: want to see the second one. I think it's fine

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Speaker 2: that this is happening. This is the nature of these

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Speaker 2: kind of things. But I do think it's really interesting

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Speaker 2: because they recently released that big you know, the World

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Speaker 2: needs Heroes trailer, and they're showing it before Batman here,

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Speaker 2: they're showing it after Batman in Europe, and it's like

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Speaker 2: in twenty twenty two, the world needs heroes, and it's

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Speaker 2: like all three of these movies that just got moved

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Speaker 2: to next year. So I guess next year the one

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Speaker 2: of these hears. But I am excited that Shazam is

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Speaker 2: going to actually get moved up to be this year's

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Speaker 2: Christmas movie because I actually I love Shazam. So now

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Speaker 2: Shazam will be opening against avata Io. Yeah, I will

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Speaker 2: be buying it to get to Shazam to plumt my flag.

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Speaker 1: Making it a Christmas movie I think is the right

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Speaker 1: idea up next to social media? Was it tizzy today

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Speaker 1: with the surprise release of the first teaser trailer for

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Speaker 1: Disney Plus's Obi Wan Kenobi, which stars Ewan McGregor in

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Speaker 1: the titular role, repraising his role as young Obi Wan

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Speaker 1: from the prequels. First of all, duel, Oh, the Fates

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Speaker 1: is in the trailer, so that's all I needed, uh,

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Speaker 1: And a lot of Star Wars Rebels material here, and boy,

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Speaker 1: the Inquisitors here, and the Grand Inquisitor is here. This.

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Speaker 1: I got really really excited your reaction, Rosie.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, first of all, everyone who ever got

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Speaker 2: a score from John Williams is just so fucking lucky.

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Speaker 2: I think about it all the time. It doesn't matter

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Speaker 2: what movie it is. It doesn't matter if there was

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Speaker 2: a trailer recently released for a franchise I'm not so

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Speaker 2: bothered about anymore rhymes with Gary Trotter, and that trailer

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Speaker 2: had a John Williams thing, and I was like, you

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Speaker 2: lucky motherfuckers, and You're just like, yes, Like this is

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Speaker 2: so great. Jeweler Fate's amazing, really excited to see all

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Speaker 2: the Sith inquisitor stuff. That's some of the best stuff.

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Speaker 2: I think that we'll definitely talk about this more. But

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Speaker 2: you mentioned like Rebels. Definitely check out those animated series

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Speaker 2: and the Vader comic, which we talk about a lot,

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Speaker 2: that has a lot of inquisitorious kind of stuff if

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Speaker 2: you want to brush up, and if you're wondering who

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Speaker 2: those creepy new Sith were in the trailer.

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Speaker 1: And then finally, this was not on our outline, but

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Speaker 1: we should talk about it because you were texting me

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Speaker 1: recently that a certain MCU movie is filming close to

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Speaker 1: your house. Yes, no spoilers, okay, I think, but tell

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Speaker 1: us what you know.

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Speaker 2: So it was reported on in the news that Amman

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Speaker 2: Quantumania was filming in the LA area, and that is true,

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Speaker 2: and it's true. There were some very cute pictures of

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Speaker 2: Scott Lang. It looks like they were basically using the

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Speaker 2: streets where they were filming as a as a front

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Speaker 2: for San Francisco and what I the way it looked

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Speaker 2: from the photos that I've seen that people took was

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Speaker 2: kind of like Scott is famous, So that seems to

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Speaker 2: be the one thing we can tell from it. It's

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Speaker 2: like Scott's famous now and Paul Rud's doing some cute

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Speaker 2: faces and everyone's okay. But it was incredibly cool to

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Speaker 2: see all the set up over the weekend and just

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Speaker 2: it was just really fun, Like didn't see any stars

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Speaker 2: or anything.

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Speaker 1: What was the fake production name of it?

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Speaker 2: Okay, it's so this has actually been publicly shard.

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Speaker 1: So I'm okay, So.

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Speaker 2: I'm not worried about breaking it. But in case you

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Speaker 2: didn't know, it's dust Bunny, which is so cute and

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Speaker 2: I love it and that that's really cool. They film

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Speaker 2: a lot in La so it's really easy to find

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Speaker 2: out kind of what's going on. But that was really

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Speaker 2: that was a really exciting one. And yeah, dust Bundy

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Speaker 2: dust Bunny is such a cute shooting name for that movie.

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Speaker 1: All right, up next the Airlock. We are stepping out

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Speaker 1: of the airlock and into the world of all things,

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Speaker 1: the Dark Night, the Caped Crusader, the world's greatest detective Batman.

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Speaker 1: It is time, Rosie to rank our top five Batman adaptations,

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Speaker 1: whatever that means to you, taking the comics, putting them

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Speaker 1: on TV, putting them in the movies, whatever the case

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Speaker 1: may be, our top five. Are you ready?

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Speaker 2: I'm ready?

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Speaker 1: Oh gosh, Okay, who should go first? I'll go first? Okay,

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Speaker 1: My number one Batman adaptation is is gosh, I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: have to say The Dark Knight. I just think that

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Speaker 1: Heath Ledger is electric in the movie there. He obviously

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Speaker 1: redefined the Joker for a whole generation of movie fans,

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Speaker 1: was influenced the way the Joker was depicted in DC

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Speaker 1: comics after that turned into a scarred, mauled mess, and

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Speaker 1: in fact, like every comics incarnation of the Joker has

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Speaker 1: in some way been impacted by Heath Ledgers incredible performance.

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Speaker 1: It's my favorite Batman movie. I was blown away watching it.

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Speaker 1: I remember vividly when they released, like I think it

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Speaker 1: was like the first five minutes of the heist portion,

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Speaker 1: the first five minutes of the movie online with the

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Speaker 1: Joker robbing the Mafia bank and then double crossing all

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Speaker 1: of the mobsters, and I was just like, man, I

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Speaker 1: cannot wait for this movie. I vividly remember working as

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Speaker 1: a waiter when Batman Begins came out. We were doing

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Speaker 1: a gig at the Philadelphia Museum and this guy who

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Speaker 1: I was working with was just like, Batman Begins, Man,

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Speaker 1: that's it. It changed everything about what we know about

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Speaker 1: Batman in the movie. He just could not stop talking

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Speaker 1: about it, and I was like, and then I saw

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Speaker 1: it and I was like, yeah, this is good. And

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Speaker 1: then The Dark Knight came out and I was blown away.

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Speaker 1: It felt like a moment in time at the time,

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Speaker 1: also with the kind of like security versus freedom conversation

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Speaker 1: that was also happening in the broader culture. But I

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Speaker 1: just loved it, and I still love the movie.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's it's one of the its. It's

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Speaker 2: such an unbelievable cultural touchstone, and they you know that

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Speaker 2: came out in two thousand and eight, the same year

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Speaker 2: The Iron Man came out, and that is just like

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Speaker 2: an unbelievable kind of changing point for how superheros and

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Speaker 2: cinema would interact. That I am going to shock a

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Speaker 2: lot of people. None of the Nola movies are actually

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Speaker 2: in my top five, but I'm really good. Yeah, I know,

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Speaker 2: I'm really glad you brought up because it is like,

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Speaker 2: that is the movie, that's like the movie that changed

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Speaker 2: the way that Hollywood saw superheroes.

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Speaker 1: That is the only Nolan Batman spoiler that is in

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Speaker 1: my top five. Rosie, who's your number one A Batman movie?

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Speaker 2: I ranked this like a week ago and it was different,

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Speaker 2: but it mine changes a lot. Right now, I'm back

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Speaker 2: to the classic Batman eighty nine. Okay, that's definitely that's

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Speaker 2: it for me. Like my earliest memory of like being

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Speaker 2: a two year old and sitting in my uncle's house.

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Speaker 2: He lived in this high rise, and I remember I

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Speaker 2: was really high up looking out the window, and in

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Speaker 2: the reflection of the window, I could see the scene

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Speaker 2: where the Joker falls in the acid, and it felt

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Speaker 2: so scary, And that is like the earliest memory I

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Speaker 2: have That's a movie that's really defined my love of cinema.

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Speaker 2: We're going to be speaking to Michael uslan Later, who

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Speaker 2: was the producer who fought to get that made. That

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Speaker 2: was one of the stories that made me want to

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Speaker 2: be involved in film and make film. I think heat

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Speaker 2: and his such a brilliant Batman. I don't know if

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Speaker 2: he's my I love Robert Pattinson's Batman so much, so

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Speaker 2: I'm definitely going in between on my faves at the moment.

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Speaker 2: But Keaton is brilliant. The suit, that design of the

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Speaker 2: yellow Batman logo with the black on top, that you

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Speaker 2: would never believe it, but that didn't exist until that movie.

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Speaker 2: It seems so synonymous. But that was a branding thing,

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Speaker 2: you know. So I think that was incredible. You know,

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Speaker 2: that was another turning point for the space of fandom

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Speaker 2: and comic books in cinema. It became the biggest movie

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Speaker 2: of all time at the time. It was Yeah, I

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Speaker 2: just I love that movie so much. I rewatch it.

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Speaker 2: Jack Nicholson obviously didn't even get into that. I quote

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Speaker 2: it all the time. Incredible stunt work. Philip tan who

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Speaker 2: is just like an absolute stunt icon. He's in that movie.

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Speaker 2: He was the stunt coordinator on that movie The Joker

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Speaker 2: Gang The Jackets they have I still live to own

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Speaker 2: one of those. Like I think it's one of the

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Speaker 2: coolest movies ever made. Like when I watch it, I

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Speaker 2: feel like, this is so cool.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, and I remember as a just like the merch

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Speaker 1: being everywhere, like just Batman hats, Batman shirts, Batman stuff, Batman, Batman, Batman.

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Speaker 1: It was. It was huge, and it was one of

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Speaker 1: those movies that like people saw two and three and

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Speaker 1: four times in the theater. I still love it. It's

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Speaker 1: on my top five list, and and in fact we'll

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Speaker 1: get to that in a second. But my so my

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Speaker 1: second movie is now I'm changing it. God fuck it, Okay,

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Speaker 1: a change my second My number two is nineteen eight

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Speaker 1: nine Batman. It's it's great, It's just great. Nicholson is

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Speaker 1: absolutely incredible. Michael Keaton, I recall at the time they're

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Speaker 1: being Keaton was known as a comedic actor. At the time,

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Speaker 1: I think he was coming off of Beetlejuice, which was

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Speaker 1: a very broad, sinister but in a funny, humorous way

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Speaker 1: kind of character, and there was a lot of there

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Speaker 1: was a there's a lot of doubt that he could

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Speaker 1: play Bruce Wayne slash Batman and he did it. He

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Speaker 1: did it. He has a real intensity in the eyes.

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Speaker 1: I love his Bruce Wayne in a lot of ways,

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Speaker 1: you know, other than Pattinson. In a lot of ways,

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Speaker 1: Michael Keaton is the most compelling Bruce Wayne he has.

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Speaker 1: It's Bruce Wayne.

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Speaker 2: He is. And also he laid the path for the

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Speaker 2: patents and Bruce Wayne, because one of the best moments

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Speaker 2: in that movie, you know, is when he's like, you

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Speaker 2: want to get crazy, Like he's he's a crazy Bruce Wayne.

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Speaker 2: He knows that he's aware of how weird it is

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Speaker 2: to dress up as a bat to scare people. And then,

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Speaker 2: like you said, the intensity in his eyes. I love

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Speaker 2: his Bruce Wayne. I love the you know, the the

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Speaker 2: black turtle neck which is now so synonymous with Batman,

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Speaker 2: and and yeah, he's just he's such a great Bruce

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Speaker 2: Wayne and a great Batman.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. He had an ability to be very very still

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Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden explode with the energy

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Speaker 1: that was really really compelling. And then when he did.

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Speaker 1: He doesn't do it a lot, but there are like

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Speaker 1: funny moments in his Batman films, and he just fully

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Speaker 1: has the arsenal of comedic tools to go to that

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Speaker 1: place too. I absolutely love it. Who's your number two?

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Speaker 2: My number two currently is actually the Batman. Matt Reeves

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Speaker 2: is the Batman.

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Speaker 1: We have a very we might as well. We might

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Speaker 1: as well keep talking about it because it's my number three. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so let's just talk about all.

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Speaker 2: You know what, this is a movie that I didn't

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Speaker 2: expect to love the way that I was gonna love it.

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Speaker 2: I think it's absolutely manages to feel very familiar and

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Speaker 2: based in the comics, but also fresh and unique and

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Speaker 2: deeply strange, which I think is so powerful. I think

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Speaker 2: the weirdness of the movie that ensemble cast. I think

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Speaker 2: Robert Pattinson is brilliant Batman. I love the weirdo, new

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Speaker 2: young Batman. I love not seeing Bruce as the playboy.

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Speaker 2: Like obviously, when you cast Christian Bale post American psycho

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Speaker 2: that is the you think that is the only Bruce Wayne.

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Speaker 1: That's like so.

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Speaker 2: Spot But I'd never really considered this idea of Bruce

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Speaker 2: as the interior, strange, reclusive Lona. That is so interesting,

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Speaker 2: and it almost plays on these kind of like Batman Beyond,

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Speaker 2: It almost plays on these different versions of Batman that

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Speaker 2: we've seen, and we talked extensively about that last week.

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Speaker 2: But I love how it takes from the animated stuff,

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Speaker 2: how it takes so deeply from the comics. I just

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Speaker 2: I think it's so great. I ranked this as my

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Speaker 2: first best movie last week. My top five has always changed,

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Speaker 2: but right now it's it's solidly there under eighty nine.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so that is my third. Let's go to your

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Speaker 1: number three. Your number three.

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Speaker 2: My number three is Batman Returns. I absolutely love this movie.

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Speaker 2: A This is like for me. I was born in

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Speaker 2: nineteen eighty eight, so for me, this was really like

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Speaker 2: the Batman movie of my childhood that I mostly Batman

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Speaker 2: eighty nine was my early memory and I remember it

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Speaker 2: and I watched it, but it was very scary, but

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Speaker 2: I was like a goth like emo kid, and I

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Speaker 2: definitely blame Batman Returns for that, like that whole aesthetic

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Speaker 2: I love. I love Michelle Fifi for as Catwoman in

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Speaker 2: that movie. I love the penguin is so brilliant. There's

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Speaker 2: just so much greatness. And you talk about that humor

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Speaker 2: of Keaton, and I think that is so there in

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Speaker 2: that movie, Like, yeah, the relationship between him and Selena

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Speaker 2: in that movie is so fun and weird and twisted.

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Speaker 2: I love the production design that to me is like

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Speaker 2: the timber and esthetic at its best, where it's this

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Speaker 2: kind of haunting carnival strangeness.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Christopher Walking in one of his truly strangest fucking

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Speaker 1: roles of all time.

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Speaker 2: Also randomly just invented a new villain. Like that's the

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Speaker 2: absolute tenacity. If you did that now, people would be like,

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Speaker 2: what's wrong with you? But back then they're like, here's

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Speaker 2: Max Shrek.

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Speaker 1: Danny DeVito in a lot of ways is kind of

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Speaker 1: like the iconic Oswald Copplepot and Michelle Pfeiffer. The the

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Speaker 1: clip of her on the set of Batman Returns whipping

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Speaker 1: the heads of the mannequins off in full patent leather

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Speaker 1: catwoman costume and causing the crew to erupt into cheers.

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Speaker 1: It goes semi viral basically every time they become new

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Speaker 1: Batman something, an iconic clip, a really fun movie. That's

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Speaker 1: a great pick. For my fourth pick, I am going

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Speaker 1: to pick the animated version of Batman. You're one. I

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Speaker 1: think it's if you'd want that Batman origin story and

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Speaker 1: you've seen Batman begins do yourself a favorite. Go watch

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Speaker 1: either pick up Batman Year one, Frank Miller, David Masziw, Jelly.

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Speaker 1: It's one of the landmark graphic novels, slash trades, slash

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Speaker 1: limited series in all of comics, not just the Big Two,

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Speaker 1: not just DC. It's great, great, great, great, great, featuring

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Speaker 1: some of the best art that you will ever see

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Speaker 1: in your entire life. But if you want to watch

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Speaker 1: it with moving pictures, go ahead and watch the animated version.

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Speaker 1: All the writings there. It's super fun. It's on HBO

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Speaker 1: Max right now if you have that. It's just one

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Speaker 1: of my favorite Batman stories of all time.

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Speaker 2: I just think it's a really great pick because I

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Speaker 2: think that the DC animated universe as we know it,

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Speaker 2: where they've done these more like standalone movies, has been

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Speaker 2: very popular. But actually I do think that the animated

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Speaker 2: adaptations are like a secret gem that a lot of

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Speaker 2: people haven't discovered. There's you know, this Dark Knight Returns,

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Speaker 2: like they even.

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Speaker 1: Did a flash point Listen. There's a ton of iconic

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Speaker 1: DC stories that if you can't get to a comic

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Speaker 1: job you like and you want to just watch them

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Speaker 1: in animated form. There're a lot of them. There, there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of them.

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Speaker 2: What is your fourth my fourth one, So I'm really

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Speaker 2: showing my tastes is so much.

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Speaker 1: I love it. My Batman Forever.

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Speaker 2: No, it's actually Batman and Robin, which is my preferred

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Speaker 2: I love I love jos Shchumacher. I think he's like

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Speaker 2: an absolute icon. I truly, truly stand by the fact

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Speaker 2: that Batman and Robin is like a brilliant Batman movie.

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Speaker 2: I think the costuming, the production design, the that's my

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Speaker 2: favorite version of Gotham, the the neon, huge giant statues,

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Speaker 2: gothic art deco, craziness. It's it's like reading a really

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Speaker 2: wild silver age comic. It's like Dick Spran come to life.

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Speaker 2: It's it feels so much like Batman. And I I

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Speaker 2: know that that is so controversial and people have a

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Speaker 2: lot of feelings about these movies, but I promise you

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Speaker 2: go and watch that movie and you will have fun.

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Speaker 2: Whatever else you feel about, you will have fun. Umer

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Speaker 2: Thumb and Poison, Ivy iconic, honest watch Nega, mister Freeze unbelievable. Uh,

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Speaker 2: you have everyone, Vivica Vivica Fox. That's that's mister Freeze's

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Speaker 2: right hand man. Like this is such a fun Chris

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Speaker 2: o'donald and George Clooney having the most like Homo a riot,

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Speaker 2: hilarious fun.

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Speaker 1: Like very we're right now Cooney Clooney later would would

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Speaker 1: bespirch the badsuit in hilarious fashion, but like this cast

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Speaker 1: is amazing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Movie.

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Speaker 1: And despite what what are esteemed guest Michael Uslin will

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Speaker 1: say later about the kind of can't be bang wow

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Speaker 1: flavor of Batman, it must be said, though we are

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Speaker 1: very inured to a dark and gritty Batman story these days,

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Speaker 1: the kind of can't be very colorful depiction of Batman

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Speaker 1: was for a long time the tone of Batman, not

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Speaker 1: just like in the Schumacher movies, but in the comic Seno.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and in Batman sixty sixt you or something else

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Speaker 2: I think is really cool about this movie is if

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Speaker 2: you really love Batman, especially if you got into it

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Speaker 2: through the animated stuff or you've read a lot of

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Speaker 2: the comics and collections, Batman and Robin actually has like

368
00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:44,520
Speaker 2: an unbelievable amount of really deep cut DC characters in

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Speaker 2: it as kind of like setting set pieces and stuff.

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Speaker 2: Even the person who is integral in Poison Ivy and

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Speaker 2: Bain's creation is the villain from Swamp Thing, and there's

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Speaker 2: lots of fun comic bookie things. I just put that

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Speaker 2: movie on and you will have fun. That's my promise

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Speaker 2: to you.

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Speaker 1: Okay, my final movie is you know what. It's very tough,

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Speaker 1: but I'm going to say the TV version Batman sixty

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Speaker 1: six the television show, because is it dated?

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Speaker 2: Yes?

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Speaker 1: Does it hold up in the sense of entertaining in

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Speaker 1: the same way that a movie, a modern Batman telling

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Speaker 1: it holds up? No? Not really. Does Caesar Romero refuse

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Speaker 1: to shave his mustache and thus have his mustache poking

383
00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:38,240
Speaker 1: out from below the Joker makeup? Of course he does.

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Speaker 1: That said, Is the bat Computer one of the campyest,

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Speaker 1: weirdest things you've ever seen? Yes? That said. When I

386
00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:52,000
Speaker 1: was a child, they would rerun that show on like

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Speaker 1: some channel, I want to say, like WPIX Channel eleven

388
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Speaker 1: or something like that, like in the afternoons after I

389
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Speaker 1: got home for school, and I would just watch it,

390
00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:02,440
Speaker 1: watch it, watch it, watch it, watch it all the time.

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Speaker 1: This is pre comics, you know. The Hanna Barbera of

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Speaker 1: Justice League and Batman show also was a big part

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Speaker 1: of my kind of like comics introduction before actually buying comics.

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Speaker 1: But like the Batman sixty six TV show I watched

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Speaker 1: a lot of when I was a kid, and I

396
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Speaker 1: really liked it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's actually like one of the most influential Batman

398
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Speaker 2: storytelling devices of all time as well, like who we

399
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Speaker 2: Know as the Rogues Gallery for Batman now is entirely

400
00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:36,240
Speaker 2: based on that show. The Riddler had been in three

401
00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:39,320
Speaker 2: issues before he was on Batman sixty six. Catwoman had

402
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:41,639
Speaker 2: not been in the comics for twelve years before that

403
00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:44,439
Speaker 2: show because of the Comics Code of America. Yeah, it

404
00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:48,320
Speaker 2: really defined the Riddler, like the way that we see him,

405
00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:51,080
Speaker 2: and it really defined a lot of the ideas of

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Speaker 2: what we see as Batman for bat and for worse,

407
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Speaker 2: you know. But I think it's so fun, and especially

408
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Speaker 2: like Eartha kit as Catwoman is just.

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Speaker 1: Oh man the voice oh will never will never leave

410
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Speaker 1: my mind.

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00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:05,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, unbelievable. Like that's another show where I'm just like,

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00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:08,440
Speaker 2: seek it out. You will have fun and you'll also

413
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:12,160
Speaker 2: find out about a lot of weird, deep cut Batman law.

414
00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:15,000
Speaker 2: I rewatched that show quite regularly because it's so fun

415
00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:17,080
Speaker 2: and there will still be stuff where I see a

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00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:20,000
Speaker 2: villain in an episode and a new antagonist, and I'll

417
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:21,359
Speaker 2: be like, wait, that's not from and I look it

418
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:23,080
Speaker 2: up and it's from the comics and it's from some

419
00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:25,879
Speaker 2: issue I never heard of or it got introduced later.

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Speaker 2: It's kind of a treasure trove for Batman fans.

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Speaker 1: I completely agree. What is your final one?

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Speaker 2: So my final one is going to be Batman that

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Speaker 2: animated series.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's great.

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Speaker 2: It's you know, it's it's arguably maybeat it objectively the

426
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:45,080
Speaker 2: best Batman adaptation of all time. Like subjectively, this is

427
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Speaker 2: my list, but I think a lot of people of

428
00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:51,040
Speaker 2: our generation, of younger generations, of older generations, like they

429
00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:55,960
Speaker 2: know the worth and quality of that show. Like that

430
00:23:56,080 --> 00:24:00,119
Speaker 2: show changed the way people perceived Batman. It added this

431
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:05,920
Speaker 2: huge texture to the story, the retro futuristic technology, the

432
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:11,320
Speaker 2: exploration of Batman and Bruce as character studies, all the

433
00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:15,560
Speaker 2: different iconic designs, you know, the work of Bruce, Tim

434
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:19,200
Speaker 2: and Pauldini to absolute creative icons in the space of Batman.

435
00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:23,000
Speaker 2: That is one of the most rewatchable cartoons of all time.

436
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:24,880
Speaker 2: And if you've never sat down and watched it, you'll

437
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:27,760
Speaker 2: just be blown away. There's a beautiful HD remaster that's

438
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:30,000
Speaker 2: available to stream at the moment. I believe it's on

439
00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:35,160
Speaker 2: HBO Max and it is just so bloody good and.

440
00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:38,919
Speaker 1: Also much like the X Men animated series of the nineties,

441
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:41,879
Speaker 1: the great thing about Batman the Animated series is you

442
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:48,280
Speaker 1: get like iconic Batman stories from the entire cannon up

443
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:50,919
Speaker 1: to that point, done in this really kind of like

444
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 1: bite size half hour animated style that is really fun.

445
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:59,800
Speaker 1: You will learn a lot about the canon of Coval

446
00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:02,520
Speaker 1: from watching Batman the Animated series.

447
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:06,480
Speaker 2: They even have like a Dark Knight returns, the darkest

448
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,879
Speaker 2: kind of Batman. They do this like imagined version of that.

449
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:12,320
Speaker 2: So that's such a brilliant point and it's one of

450
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:14,480
Speaker 2: the things I love the most about those ninety shows,

451
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,560
Speaker 2: whether it's X Men, Spider Man, this is this compressed

452
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:21,480
Speaker 2: little looks at these incredible arcs that have shaped the

453
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:24,360
Speaker 2: nature of these characters, and animated series is probably.

454
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:27,000
Speaker 1: The best at well, that's it. Those are top five

455
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:33,120
Speaker 1: Batman adaptations. Up next, Hive Mind with special guests Michael Uslin.

456
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:51,480
Speaker 1: We are honored today to be joined by producer extraordinaire

457
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:58,760
Speaker 1: comics historian Michael Uslin, who has a very unique and

458
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:04,679
Speaker 1: indeed singular relationship with the character Batman and a really

459
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:08,399
Speaker 1: unique again singular perspective in what it took to bring

460
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 1: Batman to the screen. Michael Uslin, thank you for joining

461
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:13,720
Speaker 1: us on X ray Vision.

462
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,240
Speaker 3: It is a pleasure to be here. We do have

463
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 3: a special relationship me and Batman. I can reveal for

464
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:23,000
Speaker 3: the first time here the big secret. I do wear

465
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:28,280
Speaker 3: Batman under roost and Batman wears Michael Usland under rus

466
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:30,840
Speaker 3: So you know that kind of a relationship.

467
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:34,359
Speaker 1: Mike, I wonder if you could take us back to

468
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 1: how exactly it came to be that you, as a

469
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 1: twenty something year old, managed to obtain from DC Comics

470
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:48,320
Speaker 1: the film rights to Batman and the right to negotiate

471
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:52,680
Speaker 1: those rights with with with Film studios. How did that

472
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:54,640
Speaker 1: happen at that tender age.

473
00:26:55,160 --> 00:27:03,680
Speaker 3: It's impossible, It's inconceived unless unless you said it in

474
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,680
Speaker 3: the context of its times. So I'm going to take

475
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:09,040
Speaker 3: you way back for a moment. Feel free to jump

476
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 3: in and come once again start talking about Batman. I

477
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:15,880
Speaker 3: could go on and on, but the story pretty much

478
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:19,200
Speaker 3: begins on a cold night in January nineteen sixty six.

479
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:22,080
Speaker 3: I am a teenage comic book geek. I am one

480
00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:24,919
Speaker 3: of the original members of comic book fandom as it

481
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:28,840
Speaker 3: was organizing. I attended the world's first ever comic book convention,

482
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 3: which was in a fleabag hotel in New York City.

483
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 1: Yes, the famous, famous, famous event.

484
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:37,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, very famous event. There were two hundred of us

485
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:41,200
Speaker 3: at the first comic con. It was a different time.

486
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:43,880
Speaker 3: By the time I graduated high school, I had over

487
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 3: thirty thousand comic books dating back to nineteen thirty six.

488
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 3: So know who you're dealing with.

489
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:53,360
Speaker 1: Before you get started. Let me could I just ask

490
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:57,160
Speaker 1: what was you know? I think more people are familiar

491
00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:00,159
Speaker 1: with comics culture, what it means to be a and

492
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:03,199
Speaker 1: of comics. Now, what did it mean in the fifties

493
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:05,440
Speaker 1: to be a comics nerd?

494
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 3: It was subversive, and I missed that dearly. It has

495
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 3: become so mainstream. I missed the subversiveness. Understand. At the

496
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:16,600
Speaker 3: time I was a little kid, Frederick Wortham and Seduction

497
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:20,480
Speaker 3: of the Innocent was in the limelight. Comic books were

498
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:23,240
Speaker 3: being blamed as being the sole cause of the post

499
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 3: World War two rise of juvenile delinquency in America. Probably

500
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:29,920
Speaker 3: there weren't more than three other friends of mine who

501
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:32,040
Speaker 3: were allowed to read comic books or bring them into

502
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:36,200
Speaker 3: the house. There were comic book burnings taking place reminiscent

503
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:39,800
Speaker 3: of Nazi Germany everywhere from Saint Louis to Jersey City.

504
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 3: And that was the atmosphere. The other part of the

505
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:45,680
Speaker 3: atmosphere back then is comic book reading, comic books, and

506
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:48,320
Speaker 3: collecting comic books. If you were twelve and up, was

507
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 3: considered the most uncool thing on the I'd go to

508
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:56,480
Speaker 3: the drug store to buy comic books and I was

509
00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 3: at fourteen or fifteen, and they'd look at me like

510
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:04,719
Speaker 3: I was some sort of sociopath. And god, you know,

511
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 3: in high school, the girls, if they found out when

512
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 3: I was fifteen, sixteen, seventeen that I was still collecting

513
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 3: and reading comic books, I was what I call date challenged.

514
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:18,920
Speaker 3: That's what it was like. And you know what, I

515
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 3: almost threw in the towel in seventh grade as I

516
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:25,360
Speaker 3: discovered girls and I was getting my attentions were being diverted,

517
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 3: and I began to feel that I was outgrowing comic books.

518
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:33,080
Speaker 3: And then bingo, here comes stan Lee and Steve Dicko

519
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:37,120
Speaker 3: and Jack Kirby and the marvel Age, and all of

520
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 3: a sudden I felt like comic books were starting to

521
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 3: grow up with me, and then came things like Neil

522
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 3: Adams and Denny O'Neill and Darker Batman and green Land

523
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:50,640
Speaker 3: and Green Arrow and Dead Man and my god, you know,

524
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:53,479
Speaker 3: if you asked me what were the greatest comic books

525
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 3: ever made, it was that group of Fantastic fours with

526
00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 3: Galactus and so Black, after This Man, this Monster. You know,

527
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 3: this was incredible stuff. So I stuck with my comic

528
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 3: books and felt they had stuck with me, and that

529
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 3: was how the journey really took place. But that's what

530
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:14,320
Speaker 3: it was like in the fifties and sixties.

531
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:18,200
Speaker 1: And so then getting the Batman, getting the Batman rights

532
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 1: again as a how old were you when you managed

533
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 1: to do this?

534
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 3: I was twenty eight when I bought the rights to Bag.

535
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:25,360
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh.

536
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 3: Yeah.

537
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:30,880
Speaker 2: And you'd been involved in comic scholarship and being a

538
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:33,000
Speaker 2: comics historian. So could you talk a little bit about

539
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 2: that space and kind of that journey from fan to

540
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 2: academic to producer.

541
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 3: Oh okay, so you want the whole journey, you know it.

542
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:46,920
Speaker 3: I didn't realize your show was eight hours long. So

543
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 3: let's get cracking. So I'll take you back to January.

544
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:53,920
Speaker 3: I think it was January twelfth, nineteen sixty six. I'm

545
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 3: a hardcore comic book fan, understand that by that time

546
00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 3: I had already met Bill Finger twice.

547
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:00,360
Speaker 1: O wow wow.

548
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 3: And I am probably one of only two people alive

549
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:07,280
Speaker 3: today who met Bill Finger. Bill Finger sat with me

550
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 3: in a sketchy bar in that fleabag hotel in New

551
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 3: York City the morning of that first comic con and

552
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 3: told me how Batman was created. Wow, like, oh my god.

553
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:20,200
Speaker 3: You know, and I got to be friendly with Bob

554
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 3: Kane over the years, and Jerry Robinson was one of

555
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 3: my close friends and mentors. Jerry co created Joker, Rob

556
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 3: and Alfred and many of the villains. So I got

557
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:33,400
Speaker 3: all this stuff straight from the horse's mouths. And so

558
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 3: it's now January nineteen sixty six. I have been waiting

559
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 3: for months for this night because the Batman TV show

560
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 3: was premiering. My anticipation was over the top. The show starts,

561
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:48,880
Speaker 3: Oh my god, look at this animation. It kind of

562
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 3: looks like Bob Kane Jerry Robinson art. Hey, it's in color. Oh,

563
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:56,160
Speaker 3: you know, somebody spending a lot of money. These sets

564
00:31:56,160 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 3: are extravagant. Look at the Batmobile. It's really cool. Twenty

565
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 3: minutes in it hits me. Oh my god, this is

566
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 3: a comedy, right, I have made a joke out of Batman.

567
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:14,680
Speaker 3: The whole world is laughing at Batman and that just

568
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 3: killed me. So that night, at the end of that show,

569
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 3: in our basement den, I made a vow, just like

570
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:27,160
Speaker 3: young Bruce Wayne once made a vow, except he made

571
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 3: his vow over the bloody bodies of his parents. My

572
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:32,400
Speaker 3: parents were safe upstairs, and.

573
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, you made your You made your vow over the

574
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 1: unshaved mustache of Caesar Romero, the choke under the joke

575
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 1: make up.

576
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 3: Excuse me while I knocked my head against the wall,

577
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 3: I met Caesar Romero, and that's another story. Yeah. So,

578
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 3: so I promised myself that somehow, someday, some way, I

579
00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 3: would show the whole world what the true Batman was like,

580
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:02,840
Speaker 3: the guy created in nineteen thirty nine by Bull Finger

581
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:05,360
Speaker 3: and Bob Kane as a creature of the night stalking

582
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 3: disturbed criminals, and that these new words that were popping

583
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,000
Speaker 3: up in front of everybody in society, I would find

584
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:17,640
Speaker 3: a way to remove them. Pal zapp and wham and

585
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 3: that's been the hardest thing of all, probably, so that

586
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 3: was the vow. I look for any opportunity to get

587
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:27,400
Speaker 3: my foot in the door into the comic book industry,

588
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:30,360
Speaker 3: the movie or the animation industry. But folks, I'm a

589
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 3: blue collar kid from New Jersey. My dad was a Stonemason,

590
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 3: my mom was a bookkeeper. I did not come from money.

591
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 3: I couldn't buy my way into Hollywood. I didn't have

592
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 3: any relatives in Hollywood. I didn't know anybody in Hollywood.

593
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 3: So how do you jump the grand canyon? The answer

594
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 3: began when I was a junior at Indiana University in Bloomington, Indiana.

595
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 3: It was the early seventies and a time of great

596
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:57,480
Speaker 3: experimentation on college campuses. And that's all I am going

597
00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:02,920
Speaker 3: to say on that. Let me simply add that to

598
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 3: try to stay with the times, I you offered an

599
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 3: experimental curriculum department, And the concept was if you had

600
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:13,480
Speaker 3: an idea for a course that had never been taught

601
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:16,240
Speaker 3: in school before in college and could get the backing

602
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:18,319
Speaker 3: of a department on campus, you then had the right

603
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 3: to appear before a dean and a panel of professors

604
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:23,640
Speaker 3: and pitch it. If they accepted it, even though I

605
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:26,839
Speaker 3: was just a junior, I could still teach it on

606
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:30,160
Speaker 3: campus for three hours of credit. So I said, well,

607
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:33,080
Speaker 3: the world has never seen a college course on comic books.

608
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 3: So I wrote up acyllabus comic books is a legitimate

609
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:40,160
Speaker 3: American art form, is indigenous to this country as jazz.

610
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:44,319
Speaker 3: That comic books reflect a changing American culture because they've

611
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 3: published every Wednesday since the mid nineteen thirties, and show

612
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:53,759
Speaker 3: our lives, our philosophies, our biases, and our prejudices like

613
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,759
Speaker 3: works in front of a mirror. And lastly, that superheroes

614
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:00,960
Speaker 3: had become our modern day mythology. My thesis was the

615
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:03,759
Speaker 3: ancient gods of Greece, Roman Egypt all still exists, except

616
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:06,520
Speaker 3: today they wear spandex and capes. So I went to

617
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 3: the folklore department and I pitched them, and God bless

618
00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:14,839
Speaker 3: doctor Henry Glassie. He said, he said, you're absolutely right.

619
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:17,239
Speaker 3: It doesn't matter if we call them Mao Wolf or

620
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 3: Ulysses or Superman. It's stories of brave heroes battling the

621
00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 3: demons and dragons of the day. And you could call

622
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 3: them King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table,

623
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 3: or the Avengers or the Justice League it's all the same.

624
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 3: I'll vacuum. So I appear before the Dean and he

625
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:36,400
Speaker 3: takes one look at me with my hair down to

626
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:39,040
Speaker 3: my shoulders, wearing a Spider Man T shirt and says,

627
00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:41,320
Speaker 3: so you're the fellow who wants to teach a course

628
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:42,959
Speaker 3: on funny books.

629
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:44,879
Speaker 1: At my university.

630
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, I knew I was in deep trouble. So I

631
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:51,600
Speaker 3: then launch into the first pitch of my career. He

632
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:53,759
Speaker 3: lets me speak for about two minutes and cuts me off.

633
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:56,359
Speaker 3: He says, mister euseland stop. He says, come on, give

634
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:58,920
Speaker 3: me a break. I read comic books when I was

635
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:01,040
Speaker 3: a little kid. I read every issue with Superman I

636
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:03,839
Speaker 3: could get my hands on. But all comic books are

637
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:09,680
Speaker 3: are cheap entertainment for little children, nothing more, nothing less.

638
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:14,239
Speaker 3: And I reject your theory. So this became my life

639
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 3: changing moment because I could have bowed my head and

640
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:20,760
Speaker 3: defeat and picked up my funny books and left the room,

641
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:23,680
Speaker 3: and instead, figuring I had absolutely nothing to lose, I

642
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:25,880
Speaker 3: stood my ground. I said, Dean, may I ask you

643
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:29,680
Speaker 3: two questions? He said, that's Anthony on. I said, are

644
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 3: you familiar with the story of Moses? And he looked

645
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:33,920
Speaker 3: at me like I was nuts, and he says, yeah.

646
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:37,279
Speaker 3: So I said, so, Dean, very very briefly, could you

647
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,880
Speaker 3: just summarize the story of Moses for me and me?

648
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:43,279
Speaker 3: He does. I don't know what game you're playing here,

649
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:45,960
Speaker 3: miss Jusland, but I'll play this with you. He said.

650
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:49,200
Speaker 3: The Hebrew people were being persecuted, their firstborn were being slain.

651
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:52,120
Speaker 3: Hebrew couple placed their infant son in a little wicker

652
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:54,680
Speaker 3: basket and send them down the River Nile. There is

653
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:57,600
Speaker 3: discovered by an Egyptian family that raised them as their

654
00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:00,200
Speaker 3: own son. When he grows up and learned of his

655
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 3: true heritage, he becomes a great hero.

656
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:04,600
Speaker 1: Bum bu bu bu bum b b bum bum b.

657
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:13,640
Speaker 3: Except back then there was no soundtrack. There was no Superman,

658
00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:17,640
Speaker 3: Nick do honor. So I said, could you summarize the

659
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:19,480
Speaker 3: story of Superman for me? He said, you read the

660
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:22,320
Speaker 3: comic books, And he said, you know, planet Crypton was

661
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:24,600
Speaker 3: about to blow up. A scientist and his wife places

662
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:26,600
Speaker 3: their infant son in a little rocket ship and send

663
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:29,200
Speaker 3: them to Earth. There is discovered by the Kent and

664
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:32,240
Speaker 3: then he stops, stares at me for what I swear

665
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:37,600
Speaker 3: was an eternity, and says, your course is accredited, and

666
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:40,400
Speaker 3: I became the world's first college professor of comic books.

667
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:40,799
Speaker 2: Wow.

668
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:44,359
Speaker 3: So the next important thing that happened. I go back

669
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 3: to my apartment and I am ecstatic that I pulled

670
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 3: this off. So I called my mom back in New

671
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 3: Jersey to tell her, and she says, Michael, you could

672
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:56,279
Speaker 3: have the greatest creative ideas in the world, but if

673
00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:58,920
Speaker 3: you don't market them, and if you don't market yourself,

674
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 3: no one will ever know about it.

675
00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:06,279
Speaker 1: Mom, very forward thinking. Yeah, thanks Mom, Yeah.

676
00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:08,760
Speaker 3: Oh my mom. Man. She was the mother, as opposed

677
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 3: to all my friends' mothers, who actually sat down and

678
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:13,879
Speaker 3: read comic books when I was a little kid, and said,

679
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:16,879
Speaker 3: there was nothing wrong with these if you keep them

680
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:19,440
Speaker 3: neat in your room, and if you promise me you'll

681
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 3: read books, magazines, and newspapers and not just these things,

682
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:26,160
Speaker 3: you can keep your collection. Greatest deal I've ever made

683
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:29,960
Speaker 3: in my life, better than the DC Batman deal. So

684
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:32,480
Speaker 3: I said, Mom, I'm a junior, I have no money.

685
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:34,839
Speaker 3: I'm in Bloomington, Indiana. What am I supposed to do?

686
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:36,680
Speaker 3: She goes, you're a smart boy, You'll think of something.

687
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:39,400
Speaker 3: So the only thing I could think of was I

688
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 3: picked up a telephone, figuring I had nothing to lose again,

689
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 3: and I called United Press International, which back then was

690
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:48,440
Speaker 3: as big a news and to get as the Associated Press.

691
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:52,080
Speaker 3: I asked to speak to a reporter and this poor

692
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:54,800
Speaker 3: guy gets on the phone and I started screaming at him.

693
00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:58,840
Speaker 3: So what's wrong with you? You're not doing your job?

694
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:01,680
Speaker 3: He said? Excuse? He goes, what are you talking about?

695
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:03,400
Speaker 3: I go, what am I talking about? Are you kidding me?

696
00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:06,439
Speaker 3: I just heard there's a course on comic books being

697
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:10,480
Speaker 3: taught at Indiana University. Aren't you telling me? As a

698
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:13,000
Speaker 3: taxpayer in this state, they're using my money to teach

699
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:17,520
Speaker 3: our children comic books. This is outrageous. This must be

700
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:20,320
Speaker 3: a communist plot to subvert the youth of America. And

701
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:22,759
Speaker 3: I slam down the phone. It took this fella three

702
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:25,240
Speaker 3: days to find out if there really was such a course.

703
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:29,000
Speaker 3: Who was the lunatic teaching it? He tracked me down.

704
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:31,759
Speaker 3: Does an article with photographs, It's a third of a

705
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:35,960
Speaker 3: page long, gets picked up by virtually every newspaper North America,

706
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:38,200
Speaker 3: a bunch in Europe. And my phone starts ringing and

707
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:42,200
Speaker 3: never stops. I'm invited on radio and TV talk shows.

708
00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 3: I never taught one class that wasn't filled with television

709
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:49,960
Speaker 3: cameras and reporters NBC Nightly News, the CBS Evening News.

710
00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:53,440
Speaker 3: Two weeks go by, and that was the day. I

711
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:56,440
Speaker 3: get two phone calls that day. First phone call is

712
00:39:56,480 --> 00:40:02,319
Speaker 3: this exuberant male voice. Hi, is this my Yeah? Hi?

713
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:05,880
Speaker 3: I'm Mike. This is stan Lee from Marvel Comics Leader.

714
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:12,120
Speaker 3: I call this my Burning Bush moment. I was talking

715
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:14,640
Speaker 3: to my god, he said, Mike. Everywhere I look, I'm

716
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:16,920
Speaker 3: seeing you on TV. I'm reading about your newspapers. What

717
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:19,200
Speaker 3: you're doing is great for the whole comic book industry.

718
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:23,520
Speaker 3: How can I help you? That began my relationship with

719
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 3: stan Lee, who went from being my idol to my mentor,

720
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:28,880
Speaker 3: from my mentor to my friend, from my friend to

721
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:31,600
Speaker 3: my creative associate. And then I had the honor of

722
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:34,600
Speaker 3: being one of the producers of his memorial at Growland's

723
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:37,840
Speaker 3: Chinese Theater in Hollywood, and we gave him the sendoff

724
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:41,200
Speaker 3: he would have loved. Two hours later, the phone rings

725
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:44,839
Speaker 3: and it's a very quiet male voice, adult voice, mister

726
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:47,480
Speaker 3: euseland my name is Sol Harrison. I'm Vice president of

727
00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:51,279
Speaker 3: DC Comics in New York City, he said, we've been

728
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:53,880
Speaker 3: listening to on the radio and reading about you in magazines.

729
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:56,799
Speaker 3: You are a very innovative young man. We'd like to

730
00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:58,920
Speaker 3: fly you to New York City and discuss ways we

731
00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:05,400
Speaker 3: might be able to work together there. Okay, geek, dream

732
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:08,080
Speaker 3: come true. I'm in New York. They offer me a

733
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:11,600
Speaker 3: job at DC Comics. They I'll be working there summers,

734
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:13,879
Speaker 3: and they put me on retainer when I go back

735
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:17,600
Speaker 3: to India. Oh wow, you know, jump in the Grand canyon.

736
00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 3: All you can do is look for the doors that

737
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:22,600
Speaker 3: are open just that much and shove your foot in.

738
00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 3: Whenever you see an opportunity, you sit back on the couch,

739
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:29,719
Speaker 3: on the damn couch and wait for the world to

740
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:33,759
Speaker 3: come to you. Yeah, it's a misguided a sense of

741
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:36,920
Speaker 3: self entitlement. You've got to get up. You've got to

742
00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:39,759
Speaker 3: pursue your passion. You've got to push it. You've got

743
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 3: to knock on doors till your knuckles bleed. That's what

744
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:44,920
Speaker 3: I learned. The Batman movie franchise is built on my

745
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:46,520
Speaker 3: bloody knuckles.

746
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:46,200
Speaker 2: Yeah.

747
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:49,520
Speaker 3: So that's how it all began. And that was the

748
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:51,040
Speaker 3: start of it, and that was the start of my

749
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:56,640
Speaker 3: relationship with DC Comics. This May will be fifty years. Wow.

750
00:41:56,719 --> 00:41:58,080
Speaker 3: So they started working at DC.

751
00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 1: Unbelievable. Then us take us from there to Batman nineteen

752
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:06,280
Speaker 1: eighty nine. How'd you get the rights? How did Michael

753
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 1: Uslin become the point man between DC Comics and Hollywood

754
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:12,760
Speaker 1: and now Warner Brothers?

755
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:15,800
Speaker 3: All right, now, I'm going to tell you that the true,

756
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:20,680
Speaker 3: mysterious story of how this happened. I'm working at DC.

757
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:24,000
Speaker 3: It's my first week. It's like six o'clock at night.

758
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:26,080
Speaker 3: I'm getting ready to head back to New Jersey when

759
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:29,719
Speaker 3: I hear screaming coming from down the editorial hall. I

760
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 3: go running down. I thought somebody was being killed. It

761
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:33,360
Speaker 3: was Denny O'Neill.

762
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:34,080
Speaker 1: Wow.

763
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:37,279
Speaker 3: And Denny, who was like one of my two most

764
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:40,560
Speaker 3: favorite writers, screaming favorite writers of the Silver Age and

765
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:44,840
Speaker 3: Bronze Age, and a great editor. He was editing The

766
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:47,400
Speaker 3: Shadow at the time, which was one of my favorite

767
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:52,120
Speaker 3: comic So I go, Denny, what's wrong? Are you okay?

768
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:55,120
Speaker 3: He says no, I'm not okay. I go what happened?

769
00:42:55,400 --> 00:43:00,800
Speaker 3: He goes, well, you know, Carmine Infantino, the publisher, canceled

770
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:06,719
Speaker 3: the Shadow Book and the sales were off. I said, okay,

771
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:10,280
Speaker 3: he goes, but they just got in the latest sales

772
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:14,080
Speaker 3: report and sales have spiked, so they restated the book

773
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:17,240
Speaker 3: on the schedule, and in order to keep the printing

774
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 3: press schedule, I have to have a completed script by tomorrow.

775
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 3: And I said, you don't have a script. He says,

776
00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:28,359
Speaker 3: I don't have a script. I don't even have an

777
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:31,200
Speaker 3: idea for a shadow story. I said, Denny, I have

778
00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:33,759
Speaker 3: an idea for a shadow story. He said, you did.

779
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:42,520
Speaker 3: I didn't, of course, So what that door was opened

780
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:44,560
Speaker 3: that book? So I shoved my foot and he says, right,

781
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:46,600
Speaker 3: come in, sit down, Sit down, and goes, what's your

782
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:51,600
Speaker 3: idea for a shadow story? I go, well, you're going

783
00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:56,520
Speaker 3: to love it. It's really good. And the wheels are turning

784
00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:58,840
Speaker 3: in my head. I said, you know, my girlfriend and

785
00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:02,000
Speaker 3: I just came back from Niagara Falls recently, and we

786
00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:04,239
Speaker 3: learned that back in the thirties and forties, when the

787
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:07,240
Speaker 3: Shadows stories are set, people were going over the falls

788
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:09,919
Speaker 3: and barrels and walking across the falls on tight ropes.

789
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:12,920
Speaker 3: I said, Danny, picture the shadow battling a bad guy

790
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:15,480
Speaker 3: at night on a tight rope over Niagara Falls. But

791
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:18,000
Speaker 3: the searchlight's going He goes, Michael, that's a great visual,

792
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:21,400
Speaker 3: it's a great cover. But what's this story about? I said, well,

793
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:25,400
Speaker 3: I'm glad you asked me that question. The story is

794
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:32,680
Speaker 3: about smuggling and what are they smuggling. Well, they are

795
00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:40,239
Speaker 3: smuggling drugs. He goes, Michael, what's the creative part of it?

796
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:44,040
Speaker 3: What makes it different than all other smuggling stories, said Danny,

797
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:46,799
Speaker 3: I've been saving this for the last part because it's

798
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:50,719
Speaker 3: the best part. They were going over the falls back

799
00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:54,520
Speaker 3: then in barrels, false bottoms in the barrel, that's where

800
00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:56,879
Speaker 3: they put the drugs. They go over the Canadian side,

801
00:44:56,920 --> 00:44:58,960
Speaker 3: they wash up onto the American side. That's how they're

802
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:02,160
Speaker 3: getting it through. He says. Now that's creative. He says, Michael,

803
00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:04,040
Speaker 3: can you have a full script on my desk by

804
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:07,120
Speaker 3: six o'clock tomorrow night? I said, no problem, He says,

805
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:09,760
Speaker 3: go do it. I'm now a writer for DC Comics.

806
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:13,920
Speaker 3: Thank you very much. I pull an all nighter the

807
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:16,800
Speaker 3: next day by six pm. I turn in that script.

808
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:20,600
Speaker 3: Two weeks later, I'm walking down the holes again, hair

809
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:24,320
Speaker 3: down to the shoulders. You know, hippie Michael, who's walking

810
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:27,480
Speaker 3: toward me, but arguably the most important editor in the

811
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:31,600
Speaker 3: history of comics. Julie Schwartz, now Julie for ye who

812
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:35,960
Speaker 3: do not know, was the editor who was the architect

813
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 3: of returning Batman to his roots in the seventies. He

814
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:42,319
Speaker 3: is the one who gave us the Silver Age, Flash,

815
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:47,600
Speaker 3: Green Lantern, Hawkman, Justice League, Adam and the list goes

816
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:52,160
Speaker 3: on and on. And Julie was a curmudgeon. I you

817
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:55,040
Speaker 3: got to know him, he was a marshmallow. But outwardly,

818
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:58,000
Speaker 3: you know, he was like that. So I'm walking toward him.

819
00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:02,359
Speaker 3: He goes, hey, kid, Yes, Julie, he goes, I read

820
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:07,440
Speaker 3: your shadow script. I said, you did. He goes, yeah,

821
00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:08,960
Speaker 3: it didn't stink.

822
00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:13,040
Speaker 1: Here you go, wow, thank you.

823
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:15,160
Speaker 3: So much, He said, had you like to take a

824
00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:19,280
Speaker 3: shot at writing Batman? Who? I still get the chills.

825
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:22,040
Speaker 3: This dream I had since I was eight years old

826
00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:25,120
Speaker 3: to one day write Batman comics came true and I

827
00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:26,839
Speaker 3: had a chance to write them with my old pal

828
00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:30,920
Speaker 3: Bobara Zakis. We wrote Detective Comics, which, in light of

829
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:34,760
Speaker 3: this week's movie, I'm very proud to absolutely I've gotten

830
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:40,200
Speaker 3: that comics. But if Detective Comics, and when that first

831
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:43,719
Speaker 3: issue came out, through all my tears and there were

832
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:48,120
Speaker 3: a lot of tears. I panicked. I said, oh my god,

833
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:49,920
Speaker 3: this dream I had since I was eight came true.

834
00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:52,480
Speaker 3: I don't have a dream anymore. I need a new dream.

835
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:54,759
Speaker 3: And it took ten minutes for the epiphany to hit.

836
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:58,440
Speaker 3: And I remembered back to that cold night in January

837
00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:01,480
Speaker 3: sixty six, and I said, Okay, I'm going to get

838
00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:04,040
Speaker 3: the rights to Batman, the movie rights, and I'm going

839
00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:06,920
Speaker 3: to make dark and serious Batman movies and show the

840
00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:10,440
Speaker 3: world the true Batman. So I go back to Saul Harrison,

841
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:14,239
Speaker 3: who now has become the president at DC Comics. This

842
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:16,680
Speaker 3: is the man who meant toward me in and was

843
00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:20,960
Speaker 3: very fatherly toward me. I loved Saul, and I said, Saul,

844
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:23,279
Speaker 3: I want to buy the rights to Batman and make

845
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:27,080
Speaker 3: dark and serious Batman movies. He looked like the poster

846
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:35,040
Speaker 3: of Home Alone. It was Michael, for God's sake, don't

847
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:40,560
Speaker 3: do this. Don't you understand? Since Batman went off the

848
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:44,960
Speaker 3: air in television, the brand is as dead as a dodo.

849
00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:46,080
Speaker 3: That's a quote, folks.

850
00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:47,880
Speaker 1: Wow, what year was this about?

851
00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:50,239
Speaker 3: This was nineteen seventy nine.

852
00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:57,200
Speaker 1: Gosh, so post post DC implosion and Batman off the air.

853
00:47:57,440 --> 00:47:59,759
Speaker 1: Since that time, and really yeah, like in terms of

854
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:03,799
Speaker 1: like the popular consciousness, certainly there was the Batman, there

855
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:05,719
Speaker 1: was a Hannah Barbera stuff, but there wasn't a lot

856
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:07,879
Speaker 1: out there that people could latch onto.

857
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:11,879
Speaker 3: There was the Hannah Barbarian filmation cartoons which were coming

858
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:15,719
Speaker 3: already at an end or coming to an end. He said,

859
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:18,040
Speaker 3: don't do this. I don't want to see you lose

860
00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:22,600
Speaker 3: your money. I said, yeah, but saw nobody's ever made

861
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:26,239
Speaker 3: a dark and serious comic book superhero movie before. This

862
00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:29,600
Speaker 3: could be like a whole new form of entertainment. He said,

863
00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:32,040
Speaker 3: is there any way I can talk you out of this?

864
00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:37,520
Speaker 3: I said no. He shook his head. He goes, this

865
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:42,960
Speaker 3: is another quote, okay, schmoozel. And that began a six

866
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:47,360
Speaker 3: month negotiation, during which time I realized I couldn't be

867
00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:49,600
Speaker 3: representing myself in this deal because I would have said

868
00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:53,040
Speaker 3: yes to anything. And I found a Batman partner. He

869
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:56,520
Speaker 3: was my dad's age. He was a legend in the

870
00:48:56,520 --> 00:49:00,759
Speaker 3: movie business. Is named Benjamin Melniker Ben God Bless Ben.

871
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:04,919
Speaker 3: He started working at MGM in late nineteen thirty nine,

872
00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:07,320
Speaker 3: a hell of a year for MGM and for movies

873
00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:11,320
Speaker 3: in general. He began as general counsel at MGM, became

874
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:15,160
Speaker 3: head of their Anti trust division and personally negotiated the

875
00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:18,760
Speaker 3: Paramount Consent Decree of nineteen forty eight with the Attorney

876
00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:22,440
Speaker 3: General of the United States. The studios had to divest

877
00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:23,880
Speaker 3: themselves of their movie theaters.

878
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:27,200
Speaker 2: I'm starting to understand how you got the deal, but

879
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:29,560
Speaker 2: you have the infamous deal.

880
00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:35,839
Speaker 3: So Ben put together the deals at MGM for Ben

881
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:40,240
Speaker 3: Hurb Doctor Javago two thousand and one, a Space Odyssey.

882
00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:44,200
Speaker 3: He negotiated with Colonel Tom Parker to bring Elvis Presley

883
00:49:44,239 --> 00:49:47,759
Speaker 3: to MGM. He did Gigi and all those musicals. He

884
00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:50,040
Speaker 3: was chairman of their film selection committee and on the

885
00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:53,960
Speaker 3: parent board at Low's. All divisions reported to Ben, remind

886
00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:56,319
Speaker 3: me to tell you the story one day when Joe

887
00:49:56,360 --> 00:49:59,680
Speaker 3: Barbera from Hannah Barbera when we were at a meeting

888
00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:04,360
Speaker 3: and Joe and Ben reconnected and Joe Barbara broke into tears.

889
00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:08,279
Speaker 3: I mean, it was an amazing, amazing moment to witness.

890
00:50:08,719 --> 00:50:13,520
Speaker 3: But anyway, Ben became my partner and after six months

891
00:50:13,520 --> 00:50:16,279
Speaker 3: of negotiation, which gave us just enough time to raise

892
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:19,840
Speaker 3: the money we needed to raise. On October third, nineteen

893
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:25,120
Speaker 3: seventy nine, we formed bat Film Productions, and we signed

894
00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:29,760
Speaker 3: the contract with DC, paid the money, and then I said,

895
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:32,480
Speaker 3: now my life's going to be a piece of cake.

896
00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:36,840
Speaker 3: I'm going to go out to Hollywood. Every studio is

897
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:39,640
Speaker 3: going to line up at my door. Everybody's going to

898
00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:43,360
Speaker 3: see the potential here for sequels and toys and games

899
00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:47,160
Speaker 3: and animation. This will be a breeze. I was turned

900
00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:50,680
Speaker 3: down by every single studio and any major in Hollywood.

901
00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:54,000
Speaker 3: I was told it was the worst idea they ever heard.

902
00:50:54,280 --> 00:50:54,480
Speaker 2: Wow.

903
00:50:54,719 --> 00:50:58,040
Speaker 3: I was told repeatedly, I was out of my mind

904
00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:02,640
Speaker 3: that you can't make dark superheroes, you can't make serious

905
00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:05,000
Speaker 3: comic book movies. And for God's sake, no one's ever

906
00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:07,399
Speaker 3: made a movie based on an old TV series. It's

907
00:51:07,480 --> 00:51:08,239
Speaker 3: never been done.

908
00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:11,759
Speaker 1: So, even coming off of the success of Donner's Superman,

909
00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:14,319
Speaker 1: there was no belief in Hollywood zeria belief.

910
00:51:14,360 --> 00:51:17,400
Speaker 3: Well, okay, let's go back into a context story here.

911
00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:21,239
Speaker 3: Fat I got seriously straight from the horse's mouth at

912
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:23,879
Speaker 3: the top of the food chain of Warner Communications way

913
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:27,000
Speaker 3: back when that the only reason they bought DC Comics

914
00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:29,480
Speaker 3: was to get their hands on Superman. Wow, because they

915
00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:32,640
Speaker 3: felt Superman was the only character in the comic book

916
00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:36,760
Speaker 3: world of sufficient value to be made into a blockbuster movie,

917
00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:40,200
Speaker 3: and nothing else in the DC Library or anything Marvel

918
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:44,280
Speaker 3: had the ability to do that, so nothing else had value.

919
00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:47,600
Speaker 3: But that was the times we were living in. And

920
00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:50,839
Speaker 3: that's one of the reasons I wound up being rejected

921
00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:54,240
Speaker 3: by every studio in Mini Major because who was running

922
00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:57,480
Speaker 3: the studios and the agencies then? It was that generation

923
00:51:58,200 --> 00:52:01,920
Speaker 3: were all adults at the time worth them in suginity.

924
00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:02,839
Speaker 1: Right, there are comics.

925
00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:06,000
Speaker 2: These are disposable things that don't have any value, that

926
00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:08,279
Speaker 2: are made to be cheap and get gone rid of,

927
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:10,600
Speaker 2: and nobody remembers them, and they.

928
00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:14,120
Speaker 3: Look down their noses at the creators they really did.

929
00:52:14,200 --> 00:52:14,360
Speaker 2: You know.

930
00:52:14,440 --> 00:52:17,319
Speaker 3: Stan used to tell me a story. He said, you know,

931
00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:21,000
Speaker 3: back in the fifties and through the mid sixties, he

932
00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:24,120
Speaker 3: would go to some fancy schmancy cocktail party in Manhattan

933
00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:27,600
Speaker 3: and there'd be people around. You'd get into a conversation

934
00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:30,200
Speaker 3: and they would go, so, mister Lee, what do you do,

935
00:52:31,120 --> 00:52:32,600
Speaker 3: And he said he would look at them and say,

936
00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:35,280
Speaker 3: I'm a writer, and then he would quickly excuse himself

937
00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:38,279
Speaker 3: and walk away. But they would follow him and they go, oh,

938
00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:41,240
Speaker 3: you're a writer, what do you write? And he said,

939
00:52:41,840 --> 00:52:44,719
Speaker 3: I write children's literature. And then you quickly turn around

940
00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:47,680
Speaker 3: and walk away, and they would follow them and they say, well,

941
00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:50,439
Speaker 3: what kind of children's literature do you write? He said,

942
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:53,360
Speaker 3: I write comic books, and then they all walked away.

943
00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:58,600
Speaker 3: That's what it was like. So that's the context of

944
00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:03,239
Speaker 3: it all. Dick's Superman really didn't count in that room,

945
00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:08,560
Speaker 3: and uh, I learned that the hard way. So there

946
00:53:08,680 --> 00:53:13,560
Speaker 3: was there was no interest. My two favorite rejections. One

947
00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:18,320
Speaker 3: was from a studio that said, Michael, you're nuts. Batman

948
00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:21,920
Speaker 3: and Robin will never be successful as a movie because

949
00:53:22,840 --> 00:53:27,520
Speaker 3: the movie that's out now, Robin and Marion hasn't done well.

950
00:53:28,080 --> 00:53:32,120
Speaker 3: Now you're too young to remember.

951
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:35,920
Speaker 1: I've seen it. Sean Connery, Yeah, I've seen it.

952
00:53:35,920 --> 00:53:39,439
Speaker 3: It's an aging Robin hood and Maid Marion's story. All right.

953
00:53:39,719 --> 00:53:42,279
Speaker 3: So I walked down in that meeting, picking up my

954
00:53:42,320 --> 00:53:44,719
Speaker 3: funny books and just getting the hell out of that room.

955
00:53:45,239 --> 00:53:48,680
Speaker 3: And periodically, over the next ten years, I would go

956
00:53:48,719 --> 00:53:50,279
Speaker 3: to the top of a mountain and sit in a

957
00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:52,560
Speaker 3: lotus position and ponder what this guy said.

958
00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:57,239
Speaker 2: They have the same name, all right, I know.

959
00:53:57,360 --> 00:54:01,200
Speaker 3: What the studio turned it down because they both had

960
00:54:01,239 --> 00:54:03,760
Speaker 3: the word Robin and the title there are still under nexus.

961
00:54:03,880 --> 00:54:05,360
Speaker 2: Oh you know, I was just going to say so, like,

962
00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:07,319
Speaker 2: you know, I could totally I could just listen to

963
00:54:07,360 --> 00:54:09,560
Speaker 2: you tell the whole story of the ten years. But

964
00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:12,240
Speaker 2: I guess, like, what was it like for you after

965
00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:15,400
Speaker 2: this rejection, after rejection and hearing people say, you know,

966
00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:17,799
Speaker 2: this is never gonna work. What was it like for

967
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:20,319
Speaker 2: you to step onto the set. We're not even going

968
00:54:20,400 --> 00:54:22,120
Speaker 2: to get into the success yet, but what was it

969
00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:24,600
Speaker 2: like to you to step onto the set of eighty

970
00:54:24,680 --> 00:54:29,120
Speaker 2: nine and just feel that world in a real textural

971
00:54:29,200 --> 00:54:31,440
Speaker 2: space as you kind of already always dreamt of it.

972
00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:34,320
Speaker 3: First, I have to set the stage for the set.

973
00:54:34,960 --> 00:54:38,080
Speaker 3: We had built five square city blocks of Gotham City

974
00:54:38,120 --> 00:54:41,720
Speaker 3: on the back load of Pinewood Studios, and the first

975
00:54:41,760 --> 00:54:46,120
Speaker 3: time we walked through it, Ben who had put together

976
00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:49,919
Speaker 3: the picture, Ben Her the deal for the picture. Ben

977
00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:53,319
Speaker 3: turned to me and said, Michael, in my life, I

978
00:54:53,640 --> 00:54:57,120
Speaker 3: never thought I would see sets more extravagant than Ben Her.

979
00:54:57,800 --> 00:54:59,080
Speaker 3: He said, this has it beat?

980
00:54:59,400 --> 00:54:59,720
Speaker 2: Wow?

981
00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:06,160
Speaker 3: And it was have you? It was walking through a dream,

982
00:55:07,040 --> 00:55:11,319
Speaker 3: a lifelong dream that was coming true, And I was

983
00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:16,600
Speaker 3: in some ethereal kind of sense walking through it that

984
00:55:16,719 --> 00:55:19,799
Speaker 3: I don't know that the chills ever left me. You know,

985
00:55:19,880 --> 00:55:23,960
Speaker 3: as fellow comic book fans and readers, you know that

986
00:55:24,440 --> 00:55:28,879
Speaker 3: sense of wonder that we all have, that comic book

987
00:55:28,920 --> 00:55:33,600
Speaker 3: reading has always sparked in us. It was that sense

988
00:55:33,640 --> 00:55:38,160
Speaker 3: of wonder of an eight year old boy that now

989
00:55:38,160 --> 00:55:40,920
Speaker 3: I'm getting emotional. This is bizarre. Should I lay down

990
00:55:40,920 --> 00:55:41,400
Speaker 3: on the couch?

991
00:55:42,239 --> 00:55:42,960
Speaker 1: I keep going?

992
00:55:45,520 --> 00:55:51,520
Speaker 3: It was? It was. It was a lifetime fantasy come true.

993
00:55:51,560 --> 00:55:53,680
Speaker 3: I don't know how else to describe it. It was amazing.

994
00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:56,160
Speaker 3: And to share it, and to have my wife and

995
00:55:56,239 --> 00:56:00,279
Speaker 3: kids on this set, then it was a magical time.

996
00:56:00,480 --> 00:56:03,320
Speaker 3: My son was eight, my daughter was four, and Andy

997
00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:05,400
Speaker 3: Smith took them for a ride through Gotham City and

998
00:56:05,440 --> 00:56:10,760
Speaker 3: the Batmobile. Oh and my son, David, the little imp

999
00:56:10,920 --> 00:56:14,080
Speaker 3: that he is. He had Sarah convinced, who was kind

1000
00:56:14,080 --> 00:56:16,520
Speaker 3: of sitting in the middle, that one of the buttons

1001
00:56:16,520 --> 00:56:19,000
Speaker 3: on the Batmobile was an ejector's seat and if he

1002
00:56:19,120 --> 00:56:21,359
Speaker 3: decided to put it, she would shoot through the roof

1003
00:56:21,400 --> 00:56:23,560
Speaker 3: of the Batmobile land on the roof of a building.

1004
00:56:23,920 --> 00:56:27,240
Speaker 3: She's never ridden in the middle seat of a car again.

1005
00:56:30,040 --> 00:56:32,600
Speaker 3: But there's one scene I have to tell you, you know,

1006
00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:36,520
Speaker 3: the iconic scene up on the rooftop where Batman, where

1007
00:56:36,520 --> 00:56:39,600
Speaker 3: Michael Keaton grabs him and he goes, who are you?

1008
00:56:39,880 --> 00:56:43,880
Speaker 3: I'm Batman, Yeah, and then tosses and turns and then

1009
00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:46,960
Speaker 3: leaps off the roof. So we were all up there

1010
00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:49,840
Speaker 3: on the roof and my kids were with me on

1011
00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:54,480
Speaker 3: that rooftop that day. And Sarah, she looked like Shirley Temple.

1012
00:56:54,600 --> 00:56:59,320
Speaker 3: She had curls coming out everywhere. She is standing right

1013
00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:04,759
Speaker 3: under Michael's right elbow during that scene. And every time

1014
00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:07,520
Speaker 3: I watched that scene on a big screen, I am

1015
00:57:07,600 --> 00:57:11,640
Speaker 3: looking at that bottom left corner just trying to see

1016
00:57:11,640 --> 00:57:14,560
Speaker 3: if I can see one go curl over head on

1017
00:57:14,719 --> 00:57:20,240
Speaker 3: that It was. It was a magical, amazing time of

1018
00:57:20,280 --> 00:57:24,200
Speaker 3: my life. And when you look back on the ten

1019
00:57:24,280 --> 00:57:28,040
Speaker 3: years of personal horror that I went through, which I

1020
00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:31,480
Speaker 3: call my human endurance contest, let me tell you something, folks.

1021
00:57:31,480 --> 00:57:35,880
Speaker 3: When you hear nothing but rejection for ten years, ten years,

1022
00:57:36,680 --> 00:57:39,560
Speaker 3: it tests your metal as a human being. You've got

1023
00:57:39,560 --> 00:57:42,560
Speaker 3: to look deep inside yourself and go, Okay, am I

1024
00:57:42,640 --> 00:57:45,760
Speaker 3: wrong and the rest of the world is right? And

1025
00:57:45,800 --> 00:57:50,640
Speaker 3: I'm just being stubborn or do I really truly believe

1026
00:57:50,680 --> 00:57:52,800
Speaker 3: in this and believe in myself? And I kept coming

1027
00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:56,120
Speaker 3: up with the latter answer. And you've got to understand,

1028
00:57:56,200 --> 00:57:59,160
Speaker 3: during this period of time, I was trying to figure

1029
00:57:59,160 --> 00:58:03,200
Speaker 3: out how I pay my bills next week, how do

1030
00:58:03,240 --> 00:58:06,440
Speaker 3: I keep a roof over my family's head and food

1031
00:58:06,480 --> 00:58:10,960
Speaker 3: on the table. And ten years, ladies and gentlemen, I mean,

1032
00:58:11,840 --> 00:58:14,600
Speaker 3: I tell everyone, close your eyes for five seconds and

1033
00:58:14,680 --> 00:58:17,320
Speaker 3: think of where you were ten years ago. That's a

1034
00:58:17,400 --> 00:58:19,400
Speaker 3: long time in retrospect.

1035
00:58:19,480 --> 00:58:23,000
Speaker 1: Looking at it, there were these little pockets of things

1036
00:58:23,040 --> 00:58:26,160
Speaker 1: that would seem to suggest momentum towards a Batman movie.

1037
00:58:26,160 --> 00:58:31,280
Speaker 1: You had Frank Miller come in and really just inject

1038
00:58:31,280 --> 00:58:34,480
Speaker 1: a jolt of energy into Batman on the comic side.

1039
00:58:35,520 --> 00:58:39,240
Speaker 1: But over that ten years, was there ever a point?

1040
00:58:39,280 --> 00:58:41,320
Speaker 1: What was what was the low point? What was the

1041
00:58:41,320 --> 00:58:44,000
Speaker 1: point where you were, like, you know, they maybe maybe

1042
00:58:44,000 --> 00:58:46,560
Speaker 1: nobody cares about Batman. Maybe I am the only person

1043
00:58:46,600 --> 00:58:48,600
Speaker 1: that actually cares about Batman this much.

1044
00:58:48,960 --> 00:58:53,720
Speaker 3: The lowest point came when I realized, you know, I

1045
00:58:53,760 --> 00:58:56,720
Speaker 3: needed to produce other things. I needed to write books

1046
00:58:56,720 --> 00:58:58,640
Speaker 3: and comic books and do anything I could do to

1047
00:58:58,680 --> 00:59:01,160
Speaker 3: bring in money and have other projects going in the

1048
00:59:01,200 --> 00:59:05,200
Speaker 3: introm We had done a great, great, great mini series

1049
00:59:05,200 --> 00:59:08,640
Speaker 3: for PBS American Playhouse called Three Sovereigns for Sarah with

1050
00:59:08,880 --> 00:59:12,000
Speaker 3: Vanessa Redgrave and Patrick McGowin. It was the true story

1051
00:59:12,000 --> 00:59:14,720
Speaker 3: of the Salem witch Trials of sixteen ninety two. You

1052
00:59:14,760 --> 00:59:18,840
Speaker 3: can find it on YouTube. Actually it's one hundred percent

1053
00:59:18,960 --> 00:59:22,520
Speaker 3: historically accurate. Because I'm a historian, I'm a history major,

1054
00:59:22,520 --> 00:59:24,160
Speaker 3: and that was important to me. It was another my

1055
00:59:24,200 --> 00:59:28,880
Speaker 3: passions in life. Following that, cbsm Lorimar. We made a

1056
00:59:28,920 --> 00:59:31,800
Speaker 3: deal with them to do the same kind of treatment,

1057
00:59:31,840 --> 00:59:35,120
Speaker 3: one hundred percent historically accurate of the Alamo, the story

1058
00:59:35,160 --> 00:59:38,400
Speaker 3: of the Alamo, and we had a great script by

1059
00:59:38,400 --> 00:59:40,760
Speaker 3: the top mini series writer, we had the top mini

1060
00:59:40,840 --> 00:59:44,800
Speaker 3: series director, and we got an order to go. So

1061
00:59:45,040 --> 00:59:48,680
Speaker 3: I cleared the next year of my schedule because I

1062
00:59:48,720 --> 00:59:51,640
Speaker 3: was going down to Bracketville, Texas to line produce this thing,

1063
00:59:52,360 --> 00:59:54,520
Speaker 3: and it was going to take that amount of time

1064
00:59:54,600 --> 00:59:57,720
Speaker 3: to do it. We were I think it was sixty

1065
00:59:57,800 --> 01:00:01,560
Speaker 3: days away when all of a sudden, on the same day,

1066
01:00:02,160 --> 01:00:04,720
Speaker 3: one of the heads of Larimar and the head of

1067
01:00:04,720 --> 01:00:09,520
Speaker 3: programming at CBS both left their respective companies and we

1068
01:00:09,640 --> 01:00:12,840
Speaker 3: get a call saying freeze everything, stop in your tracks,

1069
01:00:13,200 --> 01:00:15,680
Speaker 3: wait until the new management comes in and we'll get

1070
01:00:15,680 --> 01:00:18,080
Speaker 3: back to you. So I was in a panic, but

1071
01:00:18,160 --> 01:00:20,720
Speaker 3: my execs at Lauramar said, don't worry. We have an

1072
01:00:20,840 --> 01:00:24,320
Speaker 3: order and orders are never recided. And I was getting

1073
01:00:24,320 --> 01:00:26,760
Speaker 3: a very healthy producer fee for this, which I had

1074
01:00:26,760 --> 01:00:31,400
Speaker 3: already started spending. New management came in and they killed

1075
01:00:31,520 --> 01:00:33,480
Speaker 3: every project of my manager.

1076
01:00:33,560 --> 01:00:33,840
Speaker 1: Wow.

1077
01:00:34,360 --> 01:00:37,640
Speaker 3: I was told later that my producer fee was in

1078
01:00:37,720 --> 01:00:40,880
Speaker 3: a stamped envelope on an outbox that never showed up.

1079
01:00:41,600 --> 01:00:44,080
Speaker 3: And now I had cleared my schedule for the coming

1080
01:00:44,160 --> 01:00:47,280
Speaker 3: year of all prospects. My back was against the wall.

1081
01:00:48,160 --> 01:00:52,120
Speaker 3: I had no money, and the wisest man I think

1082
01:00:52,160 --> 01:00:55,360
Speaker 3: I've ever known, my father in law, doctor Morris Oscher,

1083
01:00:55,400 --> 01:00:59,040
Speaker 3: who founded the Cincinnati II Institute, flew out to New

1084
01:00:59,120 --> 01:01:02,520
Speaker 3: Jersey and he sat me down. He said, Michael, he

1085
01:01:02,600 --> 01:01:05,479
Speaker 3: and my dad actually, and they echoed each other. He said,

1086
01:01:05,480 --> 01:01:07,840
Speaker 3: the measure of a person's success is not by what

1087
01:01:07,960 --> 01:01:11,120
Speaker 3: he achieves, but by how hard he tries. He said,

1088
01:01:11,160 --> 01:01:14,040
Speaker 3: you have tried everything you could to get your Batman

1089
01:01:14,120 --> 01:01:18,880
Speaker 3: movie made, but now it's time to do Why the

1090
01:01:18,960 --> 01:01:21,000
Speaker 3: reason you went to law school so you would have

1091
01:01:21,080 --> 01:01:23,520
Speaker 3: something to fall back on. It's time to be a

1092
01:01:23,560 --> 01:01:26,880
Speaker 3: lawyer and take care of your family and your responsibilities

1093
01:01:27,120 --> 01:01:30,120
Speaker 3: and let this go. And I said, I understand that.

1094
01:01:30,680 --> 01:01:34,320
Speaker 3: I accept that, but I'm so frustrated because I know

1095
01:01:34,440 --> 01:01:38,080
Speaker 3: I'm so close to getting other projects going that will

1096
01:01:38,320 --> 01:01:41,120
Speaker 3: tide me over and get me to Batman. And my

1097
01:01:41,160 --> 01:01:45,320
Speaker 3: father in law said, Michael, how long, he says, and

1098
01:01:45,560 --> 01:01:48,480
Speaker 3: think hard about this. I want a real accurate answer here.

1099
01:01:48,920 --> 01:01:52,320
Speaker 3: How long before you have not a deal, not a contract,

1100
01:01:52,360 --> 01:01:54,960
Speaker 3: but have in your hands a check for six figures?

1101
01:01:55,760 --> 01:01:58,400
Speaker 3: And I thought about it, and I said five months.

1102
01:01:58,760 --> 01:02:01,760
Speaker 3: He said, Okay, here's what we're going to do. I

1103
01:02:01,760 --> 01:02:03,479
Speaker 3: Am going to pay all your bills for the next

1104
01:02:03,520 --> 01:02:07,840
Speaker 3: five months. Wow, five months from today at six pm,

1105
01:02:08,440 --> 01:02:10,640
Speaker 3: if you do not have a check for six figures

1106
01:02:10,680 --> 01:02:13,000
Speaker 3: in your hands, you will say I gave it my

1107
01:02:13,080 --> 01:02:15,520
Speaker 3: all and give it up and go be a lawyer.

1108
01:02:15,640 --> 01:02:19,920
Speaker 3: I thanked him profusely. I was already working eighteen hours

1109
01:02:19,960 --> 01:02:22,240
Speaker 3: a day, you know, So now I was working twenty

1110
01:02:22,280 --> 01:02:26,200
Speaker 3: two hours a day, and I had several projects going

1111
01:02:26,640 --> 01:02:28,560
Speaker 3: that I was trying to get going, including my first

1112
01:02:28,560 --> 01:02:33,320
Speaker 3: animated series, something I created called Dinosaursers got dinosaurs from

1113
01:02:33,320 --> 01:02:36,800
Speaker 3: out of Space, and I was working with Deeck the

1114
01:02:36,880 --> 01:02:41,400
Speaker 3: animation studio back then Andy Hayward. I was working with

1115
01:02:41,800 --> 01:02:46,440
Speaker 3: Columbia Pictures Television through the good offices of Rick Rosen,

1116
01:02:46,720 --> 01:02:52,040
Speaker 3: who years later would become an agent of mine. And

1117
01:02:52,840 --> 01:02:57,040
Speaker 3: these guys knew about my deadline and they got this

1118
01:02:57,920 --> 01:03:04,240
Speaker 3: dinosaursers sold in indication for sixty five half hours and

1119
01:03:04,960 --> 01:03:09,800
Speaker 3: held back the contract and the check and the range

1120
01:03:10,120 --> 01:03:13,720
Speaker 3: and arranged to have it FedEx to me the day

1121
01:03:14,840 --> 01:03:15,800
Speaker 3: my time ran out.

1122
01:03:16,080 --> 01:03:16,600
Speaker 1: Wow.

1123
01:03:17,720 --> 01:03:21,080
Speaker 3: And sometime between noon that day and three pm, a

1124
01:03:21,120 --> 01:03:24,840
Speaker 3: FedEx truck pulled up with the sign, contracts and a

1125
01:03:24,960 --> 01:03:26,440
Speaker 3: check for six figures.

1126
01:03:26,680 --> 01:03:27,040
Speaker 2: Wow.

1127
01:03:27,120 --> 01:03:31,200
Speaker 3: And that's what got me to Batman. So my point here, folks,

1128
01:03:31,560 --> 01:03:36,120
Speaker 3: is sometimes you just simply need a guardian angel. Yeah,

1129
01:03:36,160 --> 01:03:39,520
Speaker 3: and I had one in the guise of my in laws.

1130
01:03:40,680 --> 01:03:43,440
Speaker 1: So it's the summer of eighty nine. Batman is a

1131
01:03:43,840 --> 01:03:47,400
Speaker 1: smash hit. Any doubts that Michael Keaton could carry this

1132
01:03:47,480 --> 01:03:50,560
Speaker 1: role washed away the second you see the movie. You

1133
01:03:50,600 --> 01:03:54,040
Speaker 1: know Jack Nicholson electric as the joker Tim Burton, Any

1134
01:03:54,720 --> 01:03:56,680
Speaker 1: you know, any doubts that he'd be able to handle

1135
01:03:57,360 --> 01:04:00,360
Speaker 1: a character of this kind of lineage after coming off

1136
01:04:00,360 --> 01:04:03,080
Speaker 1: of Peas Big Adventure and a beatle Juicer absolutely erased.

1137
01:04:04,120 --> 01:04:06,800
Speaker 1: What do you say to the people who doubted you?

1138
01:04:06,840 --> 01:04:10,240
Speaker 1: Did they come out of the woodwork to say, Michael, hey,

1139
01:04:10,520 --> 01:04:14,000
Speaker 1: uh uh, just having to see Batman in the theaters?

1140
01:04:15,600 --> 01:04:17,560
Speaker 1: They did.

1141
01:04:19,000 --> 01:04:22,160
Speaker 3: Let's say we had opening weekend, so this would have

1142
01:04:22,200 --> 01:04:26,440
Speaker 3: been the Monday or Tuesday after opening weekend. We're in

1143
01:04:26,520 --> 01:04:30,080
Speaker 3: our offices. Ben is across from me, and the phone

1144
01:04:30,160 --> 01:04:33,280
Speaker 3: rings and it's the Robin and Marion guy from ten

1145
01:04:33,360 --> 01:04:41,120
Speaker 3: years ago. Of course, Michael, I just called to congratulate

1146
01:04:41,200 --> 01:04:44,640
Speaker 3: you on the success of Batman. I always said you

1147
01:04:44,640 --> 01:04:45,480
Speaker 3: were a visionary.

1148
01:04:47,640 --> 01:04:48,600
Speaker 1: Did he say, to who?

1149
01:04:48,840 --> 01:04:50,920
Speaker 2: Who'd you say? I want to know?

1150
01:04:53,120 --> 01:04:55,600
Speaker 3: That's what he said. And you know, when I hung

1151
01:04:55,720 --> 01:04:57,480
Speaker 3: up the phone, I turned to Ben, I said, you know,

1152
01:04:57,920 --> 01:05:00,240
Speaker 3: I think I now get it if you'd I don't

1153
01:05:00,240 --> 01:05:03,600
Speaker 3: believe them when they tell you how bad you are

1154
01:05:03,760 --> 01:05:06,880
Speaker 3: and how lousy your work is, But then you don't

1155
01:05:06,880 --> 01:05:09,320
Speaker 3: believe them when they start telling you how wonderful you

1156
01:05:09,360 --> 01:05:12,320
Speaker 3: are and how great all your work is. And just

1157
01:05:12,440 --> 01:05:16,320
Speaker 3: believe in yourself You'll do fun. And that was probably

1158
01:05:16,560 --> 01:05:18,120
Speaker 3: the biggest lesson that came out of there.

1159
01:05:19,240 --> 01:05:22,040
Speaker 2: We've kind of talked, so we've touched on the you

1160
01:05:22,120 --> 01:05:25,520
Speaker 2: mentioned Keaton and kind of what's it been like for

1161
01:05:25,680 --> 01:05:31,720
Speaker 2: you to see what your tenacity and this journey that

1162
01:05:31,880 --> 01:05:34,400
Speaker 2: was so built on your family and people who believed

1163
01:05:34,440 --> 01:05:36,760
Speaker 2: on in you. What's it been like to see that

1164
01:05:36,920 --> 01:05:40,680
Speaker 2: spawn this multi billion dollar franchise where you've gotten to

1165
01:05:40,680 --> 01:05:44,120
Speaker 2: see multiple people bring that man to life in a

1166
01:05:44,120 --> 01:05:46,240
Speaker 2: almost as many ways as he's been brought to life

1167
01:05:46,240 --> 01:05:46,920
Speaker 2: in the comics.

1168
01:05:47,240 --> 01:05:52,440
Speaker 3: People often ask me what is my job, and I

1169
01:05:52,640 --> 01:05:56,160
Speaker 3: describe it as follows. Every day I report to a

1170
01:05:56,240 --> 01:05:59,640
Speaker 3: sandbox and I play with my favorite toys. That's what

1171
01:05:59,680 --> 01:06:02,880
Speaker 3: I do for a living for forty five years now,

1172
01:06:03,640 --> 01:06:09,400
Speaker 3: and it's a wonderful thing. And to discover your passion

1173
01:06:09,440 --> 01:06:12,960
Speaker 3: in life and then make it into your work. If

1174
01:06:13,000 --> 01:06:18,320
Speaker 3: it wasn't for how much I loved the comics and

1175
01:06:18,360 --> 01:06:22,120
Speaker 3: the superheroes in Batman. When I think of the ten years,

1176
01:06:22,160 --> 01:06:25,240
Speaker 3: when I think of all the things that wilted on

1177
01:06:25,280 --> 01:06:28,440
Speaker 3: the vine, I would be in a dark room somewhere

1178
01:06:28,440 --> 01:06:32,040
Speaker 3: in Arkham, you know, in a very tight write. So

1179
01:06:32,280 --> 01:06:36,520
Speaker 3: I am fortunate I understood early because my brother and

1180
01:06:36,520 --> 01:06:41,120
Speaker 3: I we were raised to understand family first, work second.

1181
01:06:41,560 --> 01:06:43,800
Speaker 3: And family will always be there for you. And I

1182
01:06:43,960 --> 01:06:46,200
Speaker 3: never could have endured and gotten through this if I

1183
01:06:46,240 --> 01:06:48,800
Speaker 3: didn't have the support of my family and my friends.

1184
01:06:49,640 --> 01:06:54,240
Speaker 3: That was critical. I've learned just like my dad showed us.

1185
01:06:54,240 --> 01:06:56,959
Speaker 3: My dad was a stonemason, and he had a drop

1186
01:06:56,960 --> 01:06:58,920
Speaker 3: out of high school at age sixteen to help his

1187
01:06:59,000 --> 01:07:02,880
Speaker 3: family survive depression by going to work. My pop worked

1188
01:07:02,880 --> 01:07:04,960
Speaker 3: six days a week his entire life till he was

1189
01:07:05,000 --> 01:07:08,240
Speaker 3: eighty years old. Wow, and then only stopped because my

1190
01:07:08,320 --> 01:07:10,240
Speaker 3: mom took ill and he had to take care of her.

1191
01:07:10,800 --> 01:07:13,440
Speaker 3: My father loved what he did. He was an old

1192
01:07:13,480 --> 01:07:16,200
Speaker 3: world artist. He was a craftsman. You should see the

1193
01:07:16,240 --> 01:07:18,800
Speaker 3: fireplaces and the homes he built out of brick and

1194
01:07:18,880 --> 01:07:23,160
Speaker 3: marble and cement. And every day he would get up

1195
01:07:23,200 --> 01:07:26,160
Speaker 3: before dawn, big smile on his face, couldn't wait to

1196
01:07:26,200 --> 01:07:29,480
Speaker 3: get to work because he loved it so much. And

1197
01:07:29,600 --> 01:07:30,880
Speaker 3: let me tell you, when you grow up in a

1198
01:07:30,920 --> 01:07:34,040
Speaker 3: house like that, how can you not want that for yourself?

1199
01:07:34,040 --> 01:07:35,360
Speaker 3: How can you not want to wake up on a

1200
01:07:35,440 --> 01:07:37,520
Speaker 3: rain Monday morning and say, boy, I can't wait to

1201
01:07:37,560 --> 01:07:39,800
Speaker 3: get to work. I just had to find out what

1202
01:07:39,920 --> 01:07:42,800
Speaker 3: my bricks and stones were. And it became very clear.

1203
01:07:42,840 --> 01:07:46,240
Speaker 3: Early on for me, it's comic books and movies and

1204
01:07:46,280 --> 01:07:52,400
Speaker 3: animation and superheroes, and then from my mom, My God,

1205
01:07:53,640 --> 01:07:58,480
Speaker 3: my mom was all about perseverance and commitment. And I

1206
01:07:58,520 --> 01:08:00,880
Speaker 3: had an incident which I detailed in my memoir, The

1207
01:08:00,920 --> 01:08:04,959
Speaker 3: Boy who Loved Batman that I was, I guess about

1208
01:08:05,000 --> 01:08:07,240
Speaker 3: eight years old, and I was in little League pee

1209
01:08:07,280 --> 01:08:10,040
Speaker 3: Wee League, they used to call it. And I sucked

1210
01:08:10,080 --> 01:08:13,960
Speaker 3: at sports folks, I'm okay, and I think there's a

1211
01:08:13,960 --> 01:08:16,439
Speaker 3: few comic book geeks that might be able to identify with.

1212
01:08:16,439 --> 01:08:19,800
Speaker 1: This, if that's the case.

1213
01:08:21,040 --> 01:08:23,439
Speaker 3: So I sucked. So I was, you know, usually one

1214
01:08:23,439 --> 01:08:26,640
Speaker 3: of the last ones picked in a game. And we

1215
01:08:26,720 --> 01:08:29,599
Speaker 3: had this little league game, eight year old kids, and

1216
01:08:29,640 --> 01:08:32,200
Speaker 3: at the end of the game, the coach called three

1217
01:08:32,240 --> 01:08:35,160
Speaker 3: of us together away from where our parents could hear,

1218
01:08:35,680 --> 01:08:38,599
Speaker 3: and he started to scream at us. He said, you

1219
01:08:38,640 --> 01:08:42,160
Speaker 3: look like clown's out there. You cost you struck out

1220
01:08:42,200 --> 01:08:45,720
Speaker 3: three times, You cost your team the game. You look

1221
01:08:45,840 --> 01:08:49,360
Speaker 3: like clowns. Get out of my sight. And I went

1222
01:08:49,479 --> 01:08:54,400
Speaker 3: home and went up into my treehouse in my backyard,

1223
01:08:54,760 --> 01:08:57,519
Speaker 3: where I kept a stash of my comic books safely

1224
01:08:57,600 --> 01:09:01,400
Speaker 3: hidden under this queen and I retreated into a world

1225
01:09:01,479 --> 01:09:04,760
Speaker 3: of superheroes. That's the kind of thing that drove me

1226
01:09:04,800 --> 01:09:10,960
Speaker 3: into comic books and identifying with people like Batman. That

1227
01:09:11,160 --> 01:09:14,519
Speaker 3: was my escape. And my mom saw that I was

1228
01:09:14,560 --> 01:09:18,120
Speaker 3: in trauma and I burst out into tears. I said,

1229
01:09:18,160 --> 01:09:21,160
Speaker 3: I'm never going back. I hate him, I hate baseball,

1230
01:09:21,200 --> 01:09:25,360
Speaker 3: I hate everything. And she said, Michael, she said, listen,

1231
01:09:25,800 --> 01:09:28,800
Speaker 3: you are going back. She said, you don't have to

1232
01:09:28,800 --> 01:09:30,680
Speaker 3: go next year if you don't want, but you made

1233
01:09:30,720 --> 01:09:34,800
Speaker 3: a commitment to your team, and once you make a commitment,

1234
01:09:34,920 --> 01:09:38,200
Speaker 3: you honor it. Even though there may be some pain involved.

1235
01:09:38,560 --> 01:09:40,960
Speaker 3: You honor your commitment. She goes, I will talk to

1236
01:09:41,040 --> 01:09:45,280
Speaker 3: your coach and I guarantee you that will never ever, ever,

1237
01:09:45,479 --> 01:09:48,760
Speaker 3: ever happen again. But you've got to go back and

1238
01:09:48,840 --> 01:09:52,200
Speaker 3: see it through to the end. And that's how my

1239
01:09:52,280 --> 01:09:56,080
Speaker 3: brother and I were trained. So we learned that you

1240
01:09:56,960 --> 01:10:00,280
Speaker 3: can't enter this industry and think it's a war and

1241
01:10:00,320 --> 01:10:02,040
Speaker 3: that you're going to go out and fight battles for

1242
01:10:02,080 --> 01:10:05,160
Speaker 3: your projects every day. I went in saying, Okay, this

1243
01:10:05,240 --> 01:10:07,000
Speaker 3: is going to be a siege, and I'm going to

1244
01:10:07,040 --> 01:10:09,439
Speaker 3: dig a foxhole and I'm going to put on a

1245
01:10:09,479 --> 01:10:12,600
Speaker 3: helmet and I'm going to hunker down, and ultimately I

1246
01:10:12,760 --> 01:10:15,599
Speaker 3: found out the most important decision you can make is

1247
01:10:15,640 --> 01:10:18,240
Speaker 3: who do you allow in that foxhole to watch your back.

1248
01:10:19,600 --> 01:10:22,360
Speaker 3: Over the years, I made three mistakes. Each time it

1249
01:10:22,400 --> 01:10:26,719
Speaker 3: almost cost me my entire career by trusting the wrong people.

1250
01:10:26,800 --> 01:10:28,880
Speaker 3: Thank God, I had people like Ben in my life

1251
01:10:29,520 --> 01:10:33,519
Speaker 3: and mentors like Stan and so many other great people.

1252
01:10:34,600 --> 01:10:39,080
Speaker 3: But that's what made the difference. And I'm very lucky.

1253
01:10:39,320 --> 01:10:41,240
Speaker 3: I'm very lucky to have learned all that and have

1254
01:10:41,320 --> 01:10:42,960
Speaker 3: had that kind of a support system.

1255
01:10:43,400 --> 01:10:45,639
Speaker 1: So here you are. It's twenty twenty two. The Batman

1256
01:10:45,680 --> 01:10:51,639
Speaker 1: has just opened in theaters. The comics are probably at

1257
01:10:51,720 --> 01:10:57,400
Speaker 1: their peak of influence on pop culture, certainly in North

1258
01:10:57,439 --> 01:11:02,879
Speaker 1: America and indeed the world. Comics as collectibles are booming.

1259
01:11:03,400 --> 01:11:06,360
Speaker 1: Understanding where you came from, where the comics were the

1260
01:11:06,439 --> 01:11:13,880
Speaker 1: outcast kind of storytelling medium, subversive as you describe them.

1261
01:11:14,280 --> 01:11:18,160
Speaker 1: What's it like now to live in this world where

1262
01:11:18,200 --> 01:11:22,320
Speaker 1: comics are really they're king in many many ways and

1263
01:11:22,400 --> 01:11:26,200
Speaker 1: socially acceptable in a way that didn't exist even when

1264
01:11:26,240 --> 01:11:28,920
Speaker 1: I you know, when I started reading comics from Rosie

1265
01:11:28,920 --> 01:11:31,960
Speaker 1: and I started reading comics, it was it was still nerdy,

1266
01:11:32,120 --> 01:11:35,080
Speaker 1: not a thing you really talked about. But what is

1267
01:11:35,120 --> 01:11:37,080
Speaker 1: it like for you to see that evolution?

1268
01:11:37,880 --> 01:11:40,320
Speaker 3: It's been truly amazing. Like I said, I do miss

1269
01:11:40,520 --> 01:11:44,240
Speaker 3: the lack of subversiveness to it and how mainstream it's

1270
01:11:44,280 --> 01:11:47,920
Speaker 3: become in the one sense, but I realize I deserve

1271
01:11:47,960 --> 01:11:51,680
Speaker 3: either some of the blame or credit for it. For

1272
01:11:51,840 --> 01:11:56,200
Speaker 3: what's happened. I love the fact that comic book movies

1273
01:11:56,200 --> 01:11:59,040
Speaker 3: are now considered date movies. Yeah, I mean that has

1274
01:11:59,080 --> 01:12:01,519
Speaker 3: been turning the world on its head. One of the

1275
01:12:01,560 --> 01:12:06,040
Speaker 3: greatest victories of my career came when, right before COVID

1276
01:12:06,120 --> 01:12:10,240
Speaker 3: really hit, the San Diego Comic Con Museum opened up

1277
01:12:10,680 --> 01:12:15,920
Speaker 3: for a preliminary weekend during San Diego Comicon, and they

1278
01:12:16,000 --> 01:12:19,880
Speaker 3: began the Comic Book Hall of Fame, and the first

1279
01:12:20,320 --> 01:12:28,720
Speaker 3: character inducted into it was Batman, not Superman. I mean,

1280
01:12:29,080 --> 01:12:33,880
Speaker 3: that's the ultimate victory. That was absolutely inconceivable when I

1281
01:12:33,920 --> 01:12:38,960
Speaker 3: was a kid, that that could happen inconceivable. So I

1282
01:12:39,120 --> 01:12:42,160
Speaker 3: like that part. The other thing I like is that

1283
01:12:42,240 --> 01:12:45,280
Speaker 3: it has been empowering for me in a certain way

1284
01:12:45,800 --> 01:12:48,760
Speaker 3: because it has given me opportunities I never would have had.

1285
01:12:48,840 --> 01:12:52,559
Speaker 3: For example, I've been invited now three times to speak

1286
01:12:52,560 --> 01:12:55,920
Speaker 3: at the United Nations, and each time I speak to

1287
01:12:56,640 --> 01:13:00,240
Speaker 3: people from all over the Middle East. I mean, there's

1288
01:13:00,240 --> 01:13:04,320
Speaker 3: the Jewish kid from North Jersey right holding a session

1289
01:13:04,360 --> 01:13:09,520
Speaker 3: at the United Nations with people who speak different languages

1290
01:13:09,640 --> 01:13:12,600
Speaker 3: and have different politics, and come from different cultures and

1291
01:13:12,640 --> 01:13:17,120
Speaker 3: worship different gods, and we all sit together. And as

1292
01:13:17,200 --> 01:13:21,840
Speaker 3: this round Robin concludes, we bond because we all share

1293
01:13:21,880 --> 01:13:28,040
Speaker 3: this love of comics and movies and pop culture and cartoons,

1294
01:13:28,560 --> 01:13:32,360
Speaker 3: and we discover we have a common bond and that

1295
01:13:33,080 --> 01:13:36,680
Speaker 3: through the media of comic books and these kinds of

1296
01:13:36,760 --> 01:13:41,400
Speaker 3: movies and animation, we are showcasing how we're showcasing our

1297
01:13:41,439 --> 01:13:45,240
Speaker 3: similarities rather than what the media and the politicians are doing,

1298
01:13:45,479 --> 01:13:50,640
Speaker 3: which is showcasing our differences. That was incredible to be

1299
01:13:50,680 --> 01:13:54,640
Speaker 3: able to experience, to have the opportunity to experience that.

1300
01:13:55,479 --> 01:13:58,320
Speaker 3: And then I'll just give you the story I used

1301
01:13:58,360 --> 01:14:02,519
Speaker 3: to conclude my memoir The Boy Love Batman. Out of

1302
01:14:02,520 --> 01:14:04,280
Speaker 3: the Blue. I get a call from a colonel at

1303
01:14:04,320 --> 01:14:07,519
Speaker 3: West Point and he said, mister Useland every year the

1304
01:14:07,560 --> 01:14:11,839
Speaker 3: cadets vote on a Cadet's Choice Award for the person

1305
01:14:12,200 --> 01:14:15,160
Speaker 3: or character that best exemplifies the code of honor of

1306
01:14:15,240 --> 01:14:18,679
Speaker 3: West Point, and this year they voted the Dark Knight.

1307
01:14:19,800 --> 01:14:23,200
Speaker 3: Would you consider coming up here and speaking to our

1308
01:14:23,240 --> 01:14:26,880
Speaker 3: cadets and accepting the award on behalf of Batman? I said,

1309
01:14:27,040 --> 01:14:29,600
Speaker 3: it would be my greatest honor. So my wife and

1310
01:14:29,640 --> 01:14:33,800
Speaker 3: I went up. It was an amazing day. They said

1311
01:14:33,800 --> 01:14:37,040
Speaker 3: we're going. We'll do this during the lunchtime. And we

1312
01:14:37,120 --> 01:14:39,519
Speaker 3: go into the meeting hall. It's like the set of

1313
01:14:39,560 --> 01:14:43,360
Speaker 3: Harry Potter. It could have been built by the Vikings,

1314
01:14:43,400 --> 01:14:46,640
Speaker 3: this stone building coming to a V with stone balcony

1315
01:14:47,160 --> 01:14:51,719
Speaker 3: in the center, vaulted ceilings, flats, forty five hundred cadets

1316
01:14:51,760 --> 01:14:54,680
Speaker 3: standing at attention at their tables. And we go up

1317
01:14:54,720 --> 01:14:56,880
Speaker 3: there and I said, how long would you like me

1318
01:14:56,920 --> 01:14:59,200
Speaker 3: to speak? I said, normally I speak thirty to forty

1319
01:14:59,200 --> 01:15:01,559
Speaker 3: five minutes. We can do Q and A. He goes, oh,

1320
01:15:01,600 --> 01:15:04,759
Speaker 3: I'm sorry. He goes, lunchtime, here is only fifteen minutes.

1321
01:15:05,400 --> 01:15:07,479
Speaker 3: I said, oh, you want me to speak for fifteen minutes.

1322
01:15:07,520 --> 01:15:11,400
Speaker 3: He said, well, no, actually we were thinking just under

1323
01:15:11,439 --> 01:15:14,680
Speaker 3: three minutes. And then he hands me the award and

1324
01:15:14,720 --> 01:15:18,400
Speaker 3: hands me the microphone and I look out over forty

1325
01:15:18,400 --> 01:15:23,080
Speaker 3: five hundred West Point cadets and I said, Cadets of

1326
01:15:23,120 --> 01:15:27,360
Speaker 3: West Point. When Bruce Wayne was a boy, he saw

1327
01:15:27,400 --> 01:15:31,479
Speaker 3: his parents murdered before his eyes on a concrete altar

1328
01:15:31,520 --> 01:15:36,479
Speaker 3: of blood. At that moment, he sacrificed his childhood and

1329
01:15:36,520 --> 01:15:39,600
Speaker 3: made a vow. He vowed that he would get the

1330
01:15:39,640 --> 01:15:42,280
Speaker 3: bad guy who did this, that he would get all

1331
01:15:42,320 --> 01:15:45,120
Speaker 3: the bad guys even if he had to walk through

1332
01:15:45,240 --> 01:15:48,200
Speaker 3: hell for the rest of his life in order to

1333
01:15:48,240 --> 01:15:51,960
Speaker 3: honor that commitment. I said. In doing so, he became

1334
01:15:52,120 --> 01:15:57,120
Speaker 3: an urban warrior. He became a legend. He became the

1335
01:15:57,240 --> 01:16:02,919
Speaker 3: dark Knight. I said, Cadets of West Point, you are batman.

1336
01:16:03,840 --> 01:16:04,280
Speaker 1: Wow.

1337
01:16:04,479 --> 01:16:10,040
Speaker 3: And with that the place went aped crazy. They were

1338
01:16:10,160 --> 01:16:14,360
Speaker 3: cheering and yelping and oh my god, standing on the chairs.

1339
01:16:14,800 --> 01:16:18,160
Speaker 3: It went on for minutes, and it was It was

1340
01:16:18,200 --> 01:16:22,439
Speaker 3: an amazing experience to have. But the topper came a

1341
01:16:22,439 --> 01:16:25,280
Speaker 3: week later. I'm at my office. I'm opening up the

1342
01:16:25,280 --> 01:16:27,479
Speaker 3: mail and there's a letter from a woman I don't know.

1343
01:16:28,240 --> 01:16:30,719
Speaker 3: And I'm reading the letter. Dear mister Euselin, you don't

1344
01:16:30,760 --> 01:16:33,280
Speaker 3: know me. I'm the mother of one of the cadets

1345
01:16:33,360 --> 01:16:37,000
Speaker 3: at West Point whom you spoke to last week. She said,

1346
01:16:38,600 --> 01:16:42,559
Speaker 3: this is all very serious business. For our families. Next month,

1347
01:16:43,120 --> 01:16:46,439
Speaker 3: all our boys are going off to Afghanistan and Iraq,

1348
01:16:47,360 --> 01:16:49,640
Speaker 3: she goes. I'm not sure if you realize what you

1349
01:16:49,760 --> 01:16:52,880
Speaker 3: have given them, she said, but they are walking around

1350
01:16:52,920 --> 01:16:56,719
Speaker 3: campus right now, bouncing off each other's chests, high fiving

1351
01:16:56,760 --> 01:17:00,839
Speaker 3: each other and saying, I am Batman. You are a Batman.

1352
01:17:01,520 --> 01:17:06,519
Speaker 3: She said. In the years to come over wherever they

1353
01:17:06,560 --> 01:17:10,639
Speaker 3: may be, whatever foreign battlefield, this will be their calling card.

1354
01:17:11,479 --> 01:17:13,200
Speaker 3: And she said, I can't thank you enough for that,

1355
01:17:14,960 --> 01:17:19,160
Speaker 3: Oh my God, for this journey to have empowered me,

1356
01:17:19,960 --> 01:17:22,800
Speaker 3: to be able to give back, to be able to

1357
01:17:23,000 --> 01:17:28,519
Speaker 3: express the power of comics and superheroes and Batman as

1358
01:17:28,520 --> 01:17:31,600
Speaker 3: it applies to real life superheroes in the world. My

1359
01:17:31,680 --> 01:17:35,240
Speaker 3: life is filled with real life superheroes. They're called my parents,

1360
01:17:35,439 --> 01:17:39,800
Speaker 3: they're called my teachers, they're called my mentors. And to

1361
01:17:39,880 --> 01:17:43,080
Speaker 3: be able to use this in a way that not

1362
01:17:43,120 --> 01:17:49,000
Speaker 3: only entertains people, but makes them think and inspires them,

1363
01:17:49,400 --> 01:17:53,120
Speaker 3: that's the great victory in this whole thing. That's the legacy,

1364
01:17:53,560 --> 01:17:54,840
Speaker 3: and that's what I'm most proud of.

1365
01:17:56,240 --> 01:18:01,120
Speaker 1: Michael Uzelin, It's been a real honor for us to

1366
01:18:01,160 --> 01:18:04,360
Speaker 1: have you on the program today. Congratulations on all your success.

1367
01:18:05,640 --> 01:18:10,000
Speaker 1: Congratulations on the release of the new Batman movie, and

1368
01:18:10,720 --> 01:18:13,200
Speaker 1: I'm sure there'll be much more to come. Michael's thanks

1369
01:18:13,240 --> 01:18:13,840
Speaker 1: for joining us.

1370
01:18:14,160 --> 01:18:16,640
Speaker 3: You're welcome, and don't cut me off till I do

1371
01:18:16,760 --> 01:18:20,360
Speaker 3: what Stanley always told me, which is get into damn plug.

1372
01:18:20,920 --> 01:18:24,320
Speaker 1: It puff number one.

1373
01:18:24,479 --> 01:18:28,599
Speaker 3: We've got a great movie out right now. And we

1374
01:18:28,760 --> 01:18:31,559
Speaker 3: have my new book, which is the sequel memoir to

1375
01:18:31,560 --> 01:18:34,280
Speaker 3: The Boy Loved Batman. It's called Batman's Batman is now

1376
01:18:34,320 --> 01:18:38,160
Speaker 3: on sale through Amazon, Barnes, and Noble, et cetera. And

1377
01:18:38,960 --> 01:18:42,720
Speaker 3: it's also available in audio book from Blackstone. And The

1378
01:18:42,760 --> 01:18:45,640
Speaker 3: Boy Who Loved Batman is now being turned into a

1379
01:18:45,680 --> 01:18:49,800
Speaker 3: Broadway play by the Neederlander Organization of New York City,

1380
01:18:50,479 --> 01:18:53,680
Speaker 3: and it is being fast tracked to open on Broadway

1381
01:18:54,040 --> 01:18:57,320
Speaker 3: at a date that's edging closer and closer. And it's

1382
01:18:57,360 --> 01:19:01,519
Speaker 3: not Batman singing and dancing folks, it's my story, which

1383
01:19:01,560 --> 01:19:05,800
Speaker 3: they feel post COVID might be inspiring and entertaining enough

1384
01:19:06,240 --> 01:19:09,280
Speaker 3: to make people get something out of it and enjoy it.

1385
01:19:09,800 --> 01:19:13,240
Speaker 3: So that's what's coming up. And stan I did it.

1386
01:19:15,960 --> 01:19:19,400
Speaker 1: Michael, thank you so much, You're very welcome. Thanks Up next,

1387
01:19:19,439 --> 01:19:32,639
Speaker 1: the Endgame welcome to Crime Alley, where today we will

1388
01:19:32,800 --> 01:19:42,000
Speaker 1: rank our top Thomas and Martha Wayne murders of all time.

1389
01:19:42,160 --> 01:19:46,759
Speaker 1: Let the pearls hit the floor. We're leaving the theater

1390
01:19:47,200 --> 01:19:52,760
Speaker 1: because Bruce has upset tummy, and we are entering through

1391
01:19:52,800 --> 01:19:56,840
Speaker 1: the fire door crime Alley, where a tragedy will take

1392
01:19:56,880 --> 01:20:01,120
Speaker 1: place again and again and again. This is very exciting, Rosie,

1393
01:20:01,160 --> 01:20:04,600
Speaker 1: I can't wait to do this. So it's been a

1394
01:20:04,680 --> 01:20:08,599
Speaker 1: very rank heavy episode. But let's do it again our

1395
01:20:08,680 --> 01:20:13,559
Speaker 1: top three favorite Thomas and Martha Wayne murders, starting with

1396
01:20:13,720 --> 01:20:16,040
Speaker 1: number three, Rosie, what is your number three?

1397
01:20:16,160 --> 01:20:20,120
Speaker 2: Okay? So my number three is going to actually be

1398
01:20:20,400 --> 01:20:24,479
Speaker 2: the I believe it is in Batman versus Superman, the

1399
01:20:24,560 --> 01:20:28,200
Speaker 2: Thomas and Martha Wayne death. And that is so melodramatic

1400
01:20:28,800 --> 01:20:34,760
Speaker 2: with the pearls hitting the floor in the motion, that

1401
01:20:34,880 --> 01:20:37,519
Speaker 2: to me is like, if you're gonna do it, do

1402
01:20:37,640 --> 01:20:39,920
Speaker 2: it that way. I want to see Cpa toned. I

1403
01:20:39,960 --> 01:20:42,479
Speaker 2: want to see pearls hitting the floor. I want to

1404
01:20:42,479 --> 01:20:45,600
Speaker 2: see Jeffrey Dean Morgan looking upset like that to me

1405
01:20:46,680 --> 01:20:50,559
Speaker 2: is the that's almost like the meta text commentary on

1406
01:20:50,640 --> 01:20:52,519
Speaker 2: how these have been done, because it's so over the

1407
01:20:52,520 --> 01:20:53,280
Speaker 2: top and I.

1408
01:20:53,280 --> 01:20:58,640
Speaker 1: Love it fantastic. My number three is going to be Batman,

1409
01:21:00,080 --> 01:21:03,200
Speaker 1: The Brave and the Bold Season two episode eleven, Chill

1410
01:21:03,280 --> 01:21:08,400
Speaker 1: of the Night. It is seen and retold in really

1411
01:21:09,160 --> 01:21:14,439
Speaker 1: really chilling animated style. You can absolutely feel the horror

1412
01:21:14,520 --> 01:21:18,639
Speaker 1: on young Bruce Wayne's face. It's one of the best

1413
01:21:18,880 --> 01:21:21,840
Speaker 1: murders of Thomas at Martha Wayne. It is my top three.

1414
01:21:21,960 --> 01:21:25,240
Speaker 1: You're a number two murder of Thomas.

1415
01:21:25,320 --> 01:21:27,920
Speaker 2: Okay, if you haven't seen this, then I am about

1416
01:21:27,920 --> 01:21:29,800
Speaker 2: to bless you because it's one of the funniest things

1417
01:21:29,840 --> 01:21:32,200
Speaker 2: that's ever been done in DC. Yes, and it is

1418
01:21:32,360 --> 01:21:34,200
Speaker 2: goes viral every soften. But if you haven't, go and

1419
01:21:34,240 --> 01:21:36,639
Speaker 2: watch it. I believe it's also on HBO Max in

1420
01:21:36,760 --> 01:21:41,280
Speaker 2: the very underrated and absolutely hilarious Teen Titans Go to

1421
01:21:41,360 --> 01:21:44,200
Speaker 2: the Movies, which is an animated version of Teen Titans

1422
01:21:44,240 --> 01:21:47,800
Speaker 2: Go Movie that had a cinematic release. Part of the

1423
01:21:47,840 --> 01:21:50,920
Speaker 2: plot is that the Teen Titans decide that if no

1424
01:21:51,080 --> 01:21:54,840
Speaker 2: other heroes existed, they would get their own movie. That

1425
01:21:55,000 --> 01:21:58,960
Speaker 2: so they go through history and they change people's origin stories,

1426
01:21:59,560 --> 01:22:02,559
Speaker 2: and so they save Batman and his family from walking

1427
01:22:02,560 --> 01:22:05,240
Speaker 2: down crime Alley, and then later when they realize they've

1428
01:22:05,280 --> 01:22:07,840
Speaker 2: destroyed the world. We see them go to crime Alley

1429
01:22:07,880 --> 01:22:11,800
Speaker 2: and push Martha, Thomas and Bruce into crime Alley where

1430
01:22:11,800 --> 01:22:17,360
Speaker 2: they get murdered. It is so bleak and so hilarious,

1431
01:22:17,840 --> 01:22:20,120
Speaker 2: and it is just like a really great example of

1432
01:22:20,120 --> 01:22:23,000
Speaker 2: why that show is actually so brilliant because it is.

1433
01:22:23,479 --> 01:22:29,320
Speaker 2: It's the funnest, most in baseball comics fan show. So yeah,

1434
01:22:29,320 --> 01:22:30,640
Speaker 2: you got to watch that one. That is like a

1435
01:22:30,720 --> 01:22:31,880
Speaker 2: laugh out loud every time.

1436
01:22:32,600 --> 01:22:35,880
Speaker 1: My number two is Batman Begins. I think Christopher Nolan

1437
01:22:35,960 --> 01:22:40,880
Speaker 1: does something really smart with his origin story of Bruce

1438
01:22:40,880 --> 01:22:46,240
Speaker 1: Wayne as Batman, which is he makes sure that it's

1439
01:22:46,280 --> 01:22:49,960
Speaker 1: not Thomas Wayne's fault. In many, many, many versions of

1440
01:22:50,960 --> 01:22:55,639
Speaker 1: this murder, Thomas Wayne is like, let's take this short gun.

1441
01:22:56,040 --> 01:23:01,639
Speaker 1: Let's go. In the Batman Begins version, Bruce gets really scared,

1442
01:23:01,760 --> 01:23:03,800
Speaker 1: and then in fact Thomas is being a really like

1443
01:23:04,320 --> 01:23:06,040
Speaker 1: good dad. He's just had a great dad. He's like,

1444
01:23:06,200 --> 01:23:08,400
Speaker 1: you don't have to like you. Yeah, we spent a

1445
01:23:08,439 --> 01:23:11,080
Speaker 1: bundle on these tickets, but yeah, fucking rich like, well

1446
01:23:11,160 --> 01:23:13,919
Speaker 1: just leave, let's get out of here. And then instead

1447
01:23:13,920 --> 01:23:17,240
Speaker 1: of let's take this shortcut to the car through crime Alley,

1448
01:23:17,240 --> 01:23:19,080
Speaker 1: what happens is they go out the side the fire

1449
01:23:19,120 --> 01:23:23,000
Speaker 1: door and they just happen to appear into crime alley.

1450
01:23:23,240 --> 01:23:27,080
Speaker 1: I think that's one of the most grounded best versions

1451
01:23:27,160 --> 01:23:30,439
Speaker 1: in the way that it absolves Thomas Wayne of the

1452
01:23:30,479 --> 01:23:33,640
Speaker 1: crime of being an absolute dumbass and causing himself and

1453
01:23:33,720 --> 01:23:37,720
Speaker 1: is not to victim blame, but like listen, Gotham is

1454
01:23:38,000 --> 01:23:41,360
Speaker 1: not a great town and you're walking into an alley, Thomas,

1455
01:23:41,360 --> 01:23:45,439
Speaker 1: you got to know better. And the movie very smartly

1456
01:23:45,479 --> 01:23:49,360
Speaker 1: absolves Thomas Wayne of any of any kind of irresponsibility

1457
01:23:49,479 --> 01:23:52,320
Speaker 1: in the in this regard, you're number one, Rosie.

1458
01:23:52,520 --> 01:23:54,280
Speaker 2: My number one is kind of a cheap, but I

1459
01:23:54,280 --> 01:23:56,880
Speaker 2: do think it really counts, which is Baman eighty nine.

1460
01:23:57,560 --> 01:24:00,960
Speaker 2: It's no So the beginning of Batman eighty nine.

1461
01:24:00,760 --> 01:24:03,599
Speaker 1: Uses it used kun energy.

1462
01:24:03,760 --> 01:24:10,160
Speaker 2: It essentially uses the cultural understanding of Martha and Thomas's

1463
01:24:10,240 --> 01:24:14,639
Speaker 2: murder to introduce us to the movie with a pair

1464
01:24:14,680 --> 01:24:19,320
Speaker 2: of parents and a kid in Gotham and it looks

1465
01:24:19,400 --> 01:24:21,479
Speaker 2: like they're going to get murdered, and we assume it's

1466
01:24:21,560 --> 01:24:24,760
Speaker 2: Thomas and Martha Wayne and Bruce. And I just think

1467
01:24:24,800 --> 01:24:26,640
Speaker 2: that that is one of the first times that we

1468
01:24:26,760 --> 01:24:30,880
Speaker 2: really saw that conversation between fans and the people making

1469
01:24:30,920 --> 01:24:33,519
Speaker 2: these movies. Like I still watch that movie and there's

1470
01:24:33,520 --> 01:24:35,960
Speaker 2: probably thirty seconds at the beginning every time when I

1471
01:24:36,040 --> 01:24:38,880
Speaker 2: just think it's Thomas and Martha, Like it works so well,

1472
01:24:39,120 --> 01:24:41,840
Speaker 2: so we don't really see that. And obviously, like you said,

1473
01:24:41,880 --> 01:24:44,600
Speaker 2: big record spoiler alert, in this version, Jack Napier the

1474
01:24:44,640 --> 01:24:48,080
Speaker 2: Joker is the Joe Chill character who kills who it

1475
01:24:48,120 --> 01:24:49,920
Speaker 2: turns out later and killed the parents. So there's a

1476
01:24:49,960 --> 01:24:52,160
Speaker 2: lot of interesting stuff there. But that opening, to me,

1477
01:24:53,000 --> 01:24:55,640
Speaker 2: is like the most effective version we've seen of it,

1478
01:24:55,680 --> 01:24:58,840
Speaker 2: and it's also a really smart subversion because it's not them,

1479
01:24:59,080 --> 01:25:00,160
Speaker 2: So I love that one.

1480
01:25:00,200 --> 01:25:05,160
Speaker 1: My top murder of Thomas and Martha Wayne is the

1481
01:25:06,360 --> 01:25:13,280
Speaker 1: commercial or the trailer rather for Batman. Arkham origins my

1482
01:25:13,479 --> 01:25:19,080
Speaker 1: least favorite Arkham game. But I mean the trailer gives

1483
01:25:19,080 --> 01:25:21,880
Speaker 1: me chills. It is really well done in this kind

1484
01:25:21,920 --> 01:25:26,160
Speaker 1: of like realistic animated style that melts perfectly into the

1485
01:25:26,280 --> 01:25:31,200
Speaker 1: kind of cutscene style of the game itself. It doesn't

1486
01:25:31,400 --> 01:25:35,360
Speaker 1: show the murder. It allows everything to play out on

1487
01:25:35,400 --> 01:25:38,880
Speaker 1: the face of the animated Bruce Wayne. So you start

1488
01:25:38,920 --> 01:25:42,559
Speaker 1: with a close shot of Bruce, you see Martha's hand

1489
01:25:42,600 --> 01:25:45,040
Speaker 1: on his shoulder, you know, that his parents are behind him,

1490
01:25:45,080 --> 01:25:47,360
Speaker 1: and then you see the shot go off and the

1491
01:25:47,439 --> 01:25:52,280
Speaker 1: shell of the gun fly down, and it's a quick moment,

1492
01:25:52,439 --> 01:25:56,160
Speaker 1: but it is extremely, extremely impactful because it's one of

1493
01:25:56,200 --> 01:26:00,160
Speaker 1: the first retellings that said, we know you know what

1494
01:26:00,280 --> 01:26:02,920
Speaker 1: this is, and we don't have to We're just gonna

1495
01:26:02,960 --> 01:26:06,200
Speaker 1: give you a drop of it to let the full

1496
01:26:06,240 --> 01:26:11,320
Speaker 1: emotional impact take hold. I thought it was really artfully

1497
01:26:11,680 --> 01:26:16,160
Speaker 1: done and still like a commercial slash trailer that gets

1498
01:26:16,160 --> 01:26:18,200
Speaker 1: me excited for a game that came out like almost

1499
01:26:18,200 --> 01:26:21,120
Speaker 1: ten years ago. That's it for us, that's it for

1500
01:26:21,200 --> 01:26:23,639
Speaker 1: the endgame. That's it for the pearls hitting the floor.

1501
01:26:23,680 --> 01:26:26,000
Speaker 1: That's it for Thomas and Martha Wayne. Folks, it's a

1502
01:26:26,120 --> 01:26:29,479
Speaker 1: rap on them rip. Let us know your thoughts and

1503
01:26:29,600 --> 01:26:33,960
Speaker 1: use hashtag XRVN game to give us your pick. Big

1504
01:26:34,080 --> 01:26:38,360
Speaker 1: thank you to Michael Uslin and the fantastic, brilliant Rosie

1505
01:26:38,439 --> 01:26:41,120
Speaker 1: Knight for joining us on X ray Vision. Rosie, as

1506
01:26:41,200 --> 01:26:45,320
Speaker 1: Michael taught us, can't leave without the plug that wisdom

1507
01:26:45,360 --> 01:26:47,720
Speaker 1: passed down to him by stan Lee. What do you

1508
01:26:47,760 --> 01:26:48,839
Speaker 1: got to plug? Rosie?

1509
01:26:48,880 --> 01:26:50,680
Speaker 2: I've written a lot about Batman. If you want to

1510
01:26:50,720 --> 01:26:53,800
Speaker 2: continue this Batman Joy over at Nedics. There's a ton

1511
01:26:53,880 --> 01:26:58,040
Speaker 2: over there. My Instagram is Rosie Marx m a x

1512
01:26:58,520 --> 01:27:00,639
Speaker 2: way you can find me talking about this and sharing

1513
01:27:00,680 --> 01:27:04,400
Speaker 2: reviews for movies and such. Same on Letterbox. You can

1514
01:27:04,479 --> 01:27:09,400
Speaker 2: check out my comics at my website Rosyolivia Night dot com.

1515
01:27:09,880 --> 01:27:11,640
Speaker 2: There's a ton of free comics on there that you

1516
01:27:11,680 --> 01:27:14,160
Speaker 2: can read. I wrote a really cool kids graphic novel

1517
01:27:14,400 --> 01:27:16,639
Speaker 2: called The Haunted High Top, so if you've got any

1518
01:27:16,680 --> 01:27:19,680
Speaker 2: young horror fans you can check that out. Yeah, and

1519
01:27:19,760 --> 01:27:22,600
Speaker 2: we will have a big comic book announcement coming hopefully

1520
01:27:22,640 --> 01:27:24,280
Speaker 2: like at the end of this month, so that will

1521
01:27:24,320 --> 01:27:24,960
Speaker 2: be really fun.

1522
01:27:28,640 --> 01:27:31,960
Speaker 1: Folks. Don't forget. If you want to learn more about

1523
01:27:31,960 --> 01:27:34,040
Speaker 1: what we explore in each and every episode, check out

1524
01:27:34,040 --> 01:27:35,880
Speaker 1: our listener's guide to all things X ray Vision in

1525
01:27:35,920 --> 01:27:39,360
Speaker 1: the show notes or on our website at Crooked dot com.

1526
01:27:39,479 --> 01:27:42,799
Speaker 1: Next week, we're gonna be at south By Southwest talking

1527
01:27:42,840 --> 01:27:46,439
Speaker 1: about the multiverse and its depictions in pop culture and

1528
01:27:46,520 --> 01:27:50,080
Speaker 1: comics and movies and TV and such. If you have

1529
01:27:50,080 --> 01:27:52,400
Speaker 1: any questions that you want us to answer on that

1530
01:27:52,439 --> 01:27:56,599
Speaker 1: particular episode of send them to the X Ray Vision email.

1531
01:27:57,280 --> 01:27:59,960
Speaker 1: Maybe we can answer that on the stage at South

1532
01:28:00,200 --> 01:28:03,559
Speaker 1: by Southwest in Austin, Texas. That episode will be coming

1533
01:28:03,560 --> 01:28:06,320
Speaker 1: out Friday, March eighteenth, as per usual, on all your

1534
01:28:06,360 --> 01:28:10,760
Speaker 1: favorite podcast platforms. Don't forget nerd out submissions. You have

1535
01:28:10,840 --> 01:28:14,559
Speaker 1: something great that you want people to know about. Hit

1536
01:28:14,640 --> 01:28:17,599
Speaker 1: us up at x rayac cricket dot com. Instructions are

1537
01:28:17,600 --> 01:28:21,280
Speaker 1: in the show notes, and don't forget five star ratings,

1538
01:28:21,800 --> 01:28:25,879
Speaker 1: five star ratings. I can't say it enough five star ratings.

1539
01:28:25,960 --> 01:28:29,360
Speaker 1: Give us the five star ratings. We're legitimately on our

1540
01:28:29,400 --> 01:28:31,759
Speaker 1: hands and he's begging you give.

1541
01:28:31,640 --> 01:28:32,120
Speaker 3: Them to us.

1542
01:28:32,479 --> 01:28:34,439
Speaker 1: X ray Vision is Crooked Media production. The show is

1543
01:28:34,439 --> 01:28:37,040
Speaker 1: produced by Chris Lord and Saul Rubin. Show is executive

1544
01:28:37,040 --> 01:28:40,799
Speaker 1: produced by myself and Sandy Gerard. Caroline Resting and Carlton

1545
01:28:40,800 --> 01:28:43,439
Speaker 1: Gillespie are our consulting producers, and our editing and sound

1546
01:28:43,520 --> 01:28:47,080
Speaker 1: design is by Vasili's Fatoblas. Big thanks to Brian Basquez

1547
01:28:47,080 --> 01:28:48,479
Speaker 1: for a phe See you next time