WEBVTT - The Blue Devil Imam 0:00:02.120 --> 0:00:05.120 Welcome to The Hidden Gin, a production of I Heart 0:00:05.200 --> 0:00:09.520 Radio and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Minky. Listener discretion 0:00:09.640 --> 0:00:32.919 is advised, Hi, and welcome to this very special bonus 0:00:32.920 --> 0:00:37.199 series of The Hidden Gin. The interviews in these episodes, 0:00:37.240 --> 0:00:39.479 you'll hear me talk to people from all walks of 0:00:39.520 --> 0:00:42.600 life who have had Gin experiences, are drawn to the 0:00:42.600 --> 0:00:46.560 stories of Gin and draw lessons from these stories. You'll 0:00:46.600 --> 0:00:51.360 hear from artists, scholars, writers, journalists, and Gin exorcists, and 0:00:51.440 --> 0:00:53.800 even from me as I discuss how and why this 0:00:53.880 --> 0:00:58.200 series came about in a very personal conversation with my husband. 0:00:58.840 --> 0:01:06.560 Thanks for listening and enjoy this week. I'm really excited 0:01:06.560 --> 0:01:09.120 for you to meet my dear friend, Abdullah and Tapley. 0:01:09.760 --> 0:01:13.920 Abula is a chaplain and he is the Associate Professor 0:01:14.120 --> 0:01:18.199 of the Practice of Interfaith Relations at the Duke Divinity School. 0:01:18.680 --> 0:01:21.360 He's also an associate professor at the Sanford School of 0:01:21.360 --> 0:01:27.080 Public Policy. He has an incredible, incredible career. I met 0:01:27.120 --> 0:01:30.000 him first in Hartford, Connecticut, when I moved to Hartford 0:01:30.040 --> 0:01:33.000 after I got remarried to my husband or Fawn, who 0:01:33.000 --> 0:01:35.360 you heard from in the first episode, and my husband 0:01:35.440 --> 0:01:37.559 was studying to be a chaplain. Well, he was already chaplain, 0:01:37.600 --> 0:01:40.000 but he was doing another chaplain cy degree, and we 0:01:40.040 --> 0:01:41.640 moved to Hartford, Connecticut so he could go to the 0:01:41.640 --> 0:01:44.200 Heart for seminary and Abdulah is the first person we met. 0:01:44.560 --> 0:01:47.440 He took us under his wing. He introduced us to 0:01:47.480 --> 0:01:50.640 the community, and he's amazing. So he's known as the 0:01:50.680 --> 0:01:53.720 Blue Devil in mom because he's at Duke University. To 0:01:53.760 --> 0:01:56.560 tell you a little bit about him, he from two 0:01:56.560 --> 0:01:58.360 thousand and three he worked on a bunch of faith 0:01:58.440 --> 0:02:01.720 based in humanitarian and relief projects in me and mar 0:02:01.720 --> 0:02:04.840 and Malaysia. He's a founder and executive board member of 0:02:04.840 --> 0:02:08.560 the Association of College Muslim Chaplains. He has served as 0:02:08.600 --> 0:02:11.480 the first Muslim chaplain and Wesleyan. I mean, he just 0:02:11.560 --> 0:02:15.519 has like this incredible career. He was Duke University's first 0:02:15.560 --> 0:02:18.959 Muslim chaplain and then he became Duke's Chief Representative of 0:02:19.040 --> 0:02:23.079 Muslim Affairs, where he engages student, faculty and staff across 0:02:23.280 --> 0:02:27.000 the world pretty much. He is also a fellow on 0:02:27.120 --> 0:02:30.160 Jewish Muslim Relations at the Shalom Hartman Institute and he's 0:02:30.160 --> 0:02:32.920 actually the co director of the Muslim Leadership Initiative, and 0:02:32.960 --> 0:02:35.560 that's a program that I did with him many many 0:02:35.639 --> 0:02:38.320 years ago, but he's worked so long in the community 0:02:38.480 --> 0:02:42.760 as a chaplain providing pastoral care to community members going 0:02:42.800 --> 0:02:46.440 through all kinds of issues and students, especially in college campuses, 0:02:46.520 --> 0:02:50.799 And we had just an incredible conversation around how that 0:02:50.840 --> 0:02:55.079 pastoral care sometimes came right up against the issues around 0:02:55.120 --> 0:02:59.040 like religious beliefs and spiritual beliefs, and how for some 0:02:59.200 --> 0:03:03.120 students show such a difficult space to navigate. So alright, 0:03:03.200 --> 0:03:06.240 check out this week's episode and enjoy my conversation with 0:03:06.240 --> 0:03:10.440 a Dulla. I I know this is totally at my wheelhouse, 0:03:10.480 --> 0:03:11.960 and I know you were like surprised to hear when 0:03:12.000 --> 0:03:14.360 I'm thinking when I told you what I'm doing, but 0:03:14.400 --> 0:03:16.119 I know you've been listening to the show, so that's 0:03:16.160 --> 0:03:19.520 thank you for that. I am just fascinated. I was 0:03:19.560 --> 0:03:22.120 surprised a little bit. Yes, it came out a little 0:03:22.280 --> 0:03:25.760 unusual from what you have been doing already, but everything 0:03:25.800 --> 0:03:29.560 you do come up meaningful, wonderful healing. And the first 0:03:29.600 --> 0:03:32.360 and a half episode I have listened just didn't disappoint 0:03:32.400 --> 0:03:36.960 me that you are putting together beautifully. How many different 0:03:36.960 --> 0:03:41.800 traditions world cultures have engaged with this topic, and I 0:03:41.800 --> 0:03:46.480 think you are even making people sort of creative questions 0:03:46.840 --> 0:03:49.960 more than just giving some simple answers. I hope, I 0:03:50.000 --> 0:03:51.600 hope so. But you know, so, I want to start off, 0:03:51.600 --> 0:03:53.840 and I've told our listeners a bit about your background 0:03:53.920 --> 0:03:56.760 and how how long we've known each other and been friends, 0:03:56.760 --> 0:03:58.880 and your might been my mentor for for a long 0:03:58.920 --> 0:04:01.320 time now. But I would like you to tell our 0:04:01.320 --> 0:04:03.520 listeners a little bit about your background and your upbringing 0:04:03.560 --> 0:04:05.400 so they know what part of the world you're coming from, 0:04:05.480 --> 0:04:09.480 and and a little bit about your culture. Sure, I am, 0:04:09.680 --> 0:04:13.240 as my students call me, a Turkish delight or a 0:04:13.280 --> 0:04:16.760 Turkish delight. Imam originally from Turkey. I grew up in 0:04:16.800 --> 0:04:21.200 the southeastern part of Turkey in a very secular household initially, 0:04:21.320 --> 0:04:24.960 but became very religious in my early teenage years. And 0:04:25.000 --> 0:04:28.080 that religiosity, that attraction to Islam, so you were like 0:04:28.200 --> 0:04:32.719 radicalized basically, Yes, I was born again Muslim. And thank 0:04:32.760 --> 0:04:37.000 god this this could have ended really terribly given how 0:04:37.000 --> 0:04:40.360 many different variations were in the market. I had the 0:04:40.440 --> 0:04:44.640 good teachers, good mentors, good friends. I could have ended up. 0:04:44.960 --> 0:04:48.320 I remember in nineteen eighties, people were recruiting for jihad 0:04:48.360 --> 0:04:53.880 in Afghanistan, and they look very appealing. It was incredible 0:04:53.880 --> 0:04:57.560 religious fervor and language. I was very, very attracted to it. 0:04:57.640 --> 0:05:02.840 But somehow, mainly through glenn Movement and Glenn's moderate teaching, 0:05:03.480 --> 0:05:08.840 I was able to remain a moderate but still my curiosity, 0:05:09.520 --> 0:05:15.400 my anxious hyper personality always allowed me to look for 0:05:15.600 --> 0:05:19.440 different adventures. And I left Turkey immediately after college and 0:05:19.480 --> 0:05:25.359 then lived in Southeast Asia, my hometown in my birth 0:05:25.440 --> 0:05:30.120 town too, exactly exactly in in India, extensively traveled in 0:05:30.120 --> 0:05:34.400 India Pakistan, and in addition to being Turkish, I am 0:05:34.400 --> 0:05:38.760 also South Asian and Southeast Asian. Really I always felt 0:05:38.800 --> 0:05:41.159 I should I should have been born in Lahore, and 0:05:41.240 --> 0:05:46.559 absolutely everybody should be born in Lahore. And I also 0:05:46.760 --> 0:05:48.880 related to the topic that we are covering. I was 0:05:48.920 --> 0:05:54.680 able to see how the mystical beings and ghosts and 0:05:54.880 --> 0:05:57.960 jins and and jaw doos and all these things have 0:05:58.040 --> 0:06:01.840 been so uniquely in that part of the world. Lived 0:06:02.279 --> 0:06:04.520 as an experience, and for the last twenty years or 0:06:04.560 --> 0:06:07.760 so living in the United States, most recently here at 0:06:07.839 --> 0:06:11.120 Duke University as the Blue Devil, I mom again as 0:06:11.160 --> 0:06:14.880 my students call me, as a mom, as a professor 0:06:14.880 --> 0:06:18.360 of Islam, as a as a huge fan of you 0:06:19.320 --> 0:06:22.920 thinking working really hard to imagine that maybe in our 0:06:23.000 --> 0:06:26.480 children's generation, Islam is a religion and Muslims as people 0:06:26.880 --> 0:06:30.440 mustim Americans will have a better place in American society 0:06:30.520 --> 0:06:33.400 and will be better a messages to this faith tradition 0:06:33.440 --> 0:06:35.479 that we are part of. I hope so, and also 0:06:35.560 --> 0:06:38.240 I also hope we come to I also hope as 0:06:38.279 --> 0:06:40.279 a community we get we get to be better at 0:06:40.320 --> 0:06:43.840 what we're supposed to be doing. We know about that. UM. 0:06:43.839 --> 0:06:48.440 So let me ask you this. UM. You so you 0:06:48.520 --> 0:06:50.719 because you were able to see you you were in 0:06:50.880 --> 0:06:53.280 lots of different Muslim spaces globally, right. But I want 0:06:53.320 --> 0:06:56.200 to know, like when it comes to this topic, like 0:06:56.279 --> 0:06:59.160 you said, so you were you kind of gravitated towards 0:06:59.160 --> 0:07:01.360 the Googlan movement. UM and not a lot of people 0:07:01.560 --> 0:07:05.719 know what that is. But the whole mystical didn't have 0:07:05.920 --> 0:07:08.120 kind of a mystical side of it, like an esoteric 0:07:08.200 --> 0:07:11.280 mystical teaching is a close like Sufism. Was there a 0:07:11.280 --> 0:07:14.559 lot of was there? What was it? I'll be honest. 0:07:14.600 --> 0:07:16.320 I was raised by my mother who was um, you 0:07:16.360 --> 0:07:18.840 know who is Wahabi, meaning she was kind of a fundamentalist. 0:07:19.120 --> 0:07:22.320 They're very they're very spiritual, they're really not very spiritual, 0:07:22.320 --> 0:07:24.400 and so we did not talk about these things. It 0:07:24.440 --> 0:07:26.160 was like, yeah, yeah, it's there, is supposed to be there, 0:07:26.200 --> 0:07:30.680 but whatever, you know, but what about you? Um I 0:07:31.560 --> 0:07:35.200 in the Good Moment is not a traditional Sufi order 0:07:35.280 --> 0:07:38.480 per se, but the Islam that they represent is deeply, 0:07:38.560 --> 0:07:43.080 deeply embedded in the Sufi teachings of the Anatolian Turkish communities. 0:07:44.080 --> 0:07:46.560 As you might already know earlier in the Republic, by 0:07:46.640 --> 0:07:50.640 the violent implementation of secularism in Turkey, all the Sufi 0:07:50.680 --> 0:07:55.880 shrines were outload and their orders were closed, etcetera. A 0:07:55.960 --> 0:07:58.800 lot of the Sufi moments went underground, and some of 0:07:58.840 --> 0:08:02.080 them survived as the Swiftly Order. But the Good At 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:07.040 movement it's a religious moment but also a social political moment. 0:08:07.840 --> 0:08:12.240 They draw so much teaching from the from the various 0:08:12.280 --> 0:08:16.080 Sufi orders. But also it's amazing. My my parents were 0:08:16.080 --> 0:08:18.800 not religious. I grew up in an somewhat other white 0:08:18.960 --> 0:08:23.120 Turkish nationalist tradition. Even though they were not religious, they 0:08:23.120 --> 0:08:26.360 had so many superstitious well they believed in Jin's they 0:08:26.360 --> 0:08:29.440 believed in Nazar, they believed in Hasset, they believed in 0:08:29.480 --> 0:08:33.679 the evil eye, they believed in the power of evil gays, 0:08:33.720 --> 0:08:35.880 that you could harm other people, or they believe that 0:08:36.440 --> 0:08:40.040 the jins sometimes touched you. We had a couple of 0:08:40.160 --> 0:08:43.920 mentally ill people in my in our neighborhood, and often 0:08:43.960 --> 0:08:48.400 they're very severe mental health emotional health problem. We're always 0:08:48.440 --> 0:08:53.360 explained to me as possessed by gin or their parents 0:08:53.360 --> 0:08:56.600 did something wrong as they were raising them, or they 0:08:56.640 --> 0:09:00.480 were as they were having sexual relationship during the moments 0:09:00.520 --> 0:09:03.400 that a gin somehow entered into the soul of this 0:09:03.480 --> 0:09:06.080 woman or this man. Wow, I did not know about 0:09:06.120 --> 0:09:11.319 that theory there. Yeah, there is a that or I 0:09:11.360 --> 0:09:12.800 don't know if you heard that one. It's a very 0:09:12.800 --> 0:09:19.840 common belief that urine invites jin's and if you urinate 0:09:19.920 --> 0:09:21.920 into a wrong place, or if you have urine in 0:09:22.080 --> 0:09:25.040 part of your home or clothes, that could be you know, 0:09:25.120 --> 0:09:27.440 that could make you vulnerable towards the effect of a 0:09:27.520 --> 0:09:32.480 gin et cetera. I was always fascinated, but at the 0:09:32.520 --> 0:09:36.079 same time, I simultaneously I hope this will be a 0:09:36.200 --> 0:09:39.320 very honest and candid warning to the audience as you 0:09:39.400 --> 0:09:42.720 study and learn about jin's um in many parts of 0:09:42.760 --> 0:09:45.400 the world, not limited to the Muslim world, including the 0:09:45.440 --> 0:09:50.120 United States. Because this is such a delicate subject, it 0:09:50.240 --> 0:09:53.559 sort of claims to connect you to the world of unseen. 0:09:54.360 --> 0:09:58.480 It's sort of claims sometimes to explain this unseen world 0:09:58.880 --> 0:10:01.880 and try to relate it you. There's so much a 0:10:02.080 --> 0:10:07.240 spiritual corruption in this field. Absolutely, people who are claiming 0:10:07.280 --> 0:10:11.640 to communicate that unseen world and language. There are so 0:10:11.679 --> 0:10:17.440 many charlatans and cheaters and groups um con artists. I 0:10:17.480 --> 0:10:21.840 have seen all sorts of people jaw dos who basically 0:10:22.120 --> 0:10:26.280 use this to build a spiritual authority on other people 0:10:26.320 --> 0:10:32.480 and abuse that authority financially, sexually, emotionally, and otherwise. There 0:10:32.559 --> 0:10:35.800 is so much corruption, and there is so much I 0:10:35.840 --> 0:10:39.319 don't know how to say respectfully. Bs um the lies 0:10:40.080 --> 0:10:44.240 b bs is good. Yeah, Yeah, there's a lot of 0:10:44.280 --> 0:10:47.199 exploitation of this. There is a lot of exploitation of 0:10:47.240 --> 0:10:49.840 this topic. And what I've seen is that exploitation ends 0:10:49.920 --> 0:10:54.719 up um people who are very innocent and trust these 0:10:54.800 --> 0:10:57.600 kind of clerics and these spiritual leaders like they end 0:10:57.679 --> 0:11:01.320 up harming their loved ones when they take it as 0:11:01.360 --> 0:11:04.000 the gospel truth that oh it must be a spiritual disease. 0:11:04.160 --> 0:11:07.160 It's like somebody's black magic. It's a gin instead of 0:11:07.200 --> 0:11:09.560 addressing like actual mental health issue. I'm curious you said 0:11:09.559 --> 0:11:12.320 there's a mentally ill people in your community, your neighborhood 0:11:12.320 --> 0:11:13.760 when you're growing up, and you were told that they 0:11:13.760 --> 0:11:16.680 were affected by gin? Does that mean they were not 0:11:16.760 --> 0:11:20.040 given like mental health treatment, they didn't get another professional care, Like, 0:11:20.280 --> 0:11:22.800 how were they dealt with? Then? Not at all? Not 0:11:22.880 --> 0:11:26.240 at all. Especially it's a lot better now in Turkish societies. 0:11:26.280 --> 0:11:30.720 But I have seen similar deeply rooted stigma around mental 0:11:30.760 --> 0:11:33.199 health in many of the developing world, in many of 0:11:33.280 --> 0:11:35.800 the Muslim world, And I mean it exists here too, 0:11:35.800 --> 0:11:38.400 but yeah, yeah, yeah, it's croquitly in the United States 0:11:38.480 --> 0:11:44.880 among my students. How modern psychology, modern mental health, pastoral care, 0:11:45.640 --> 0:11:49.320 or even clinical psychology is always uh, it's very difficult 0:11:49.320 --> 0:11:52.599 for anyone to bring themselves to the level of openness 0:11:52.640 --> 0:11:55.720 that you need to have. Um. There's so much fear, 0:11:55.800 --> 0:12:00.320 there's so much taboo around it. Um. And and in 0:12:00.360 --> 0:12:06.120 a way, this whole gin possession black magic became some 0:12:06.240 --> 0:12:10.480 sort of a cop out answer. Um, because if you 0:12:10.520 --> 0:12:13.400 have a mental disease, that means you're crazy. That means 0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:16.920 your children will never marry suitable people. That means your 0:12:16.920 --> 0:12:20.000 reputation and standing in the community will be ruined because 0:12:20.040 --> 0:12:23.400 you come from a gene of crazy people somehow making 0:12:23.480 --> 0:12:26.120 up these stories instead of seeing this as a disease 0:12:26.120 --> 0:12:31.839 that's treatable to a certain extent, somehow these evil vicious beings, uh, 0:12:31.880 --> 0:12:37.600 this swotless fire somehow affecting and therefore it's not their fault. 0:12:37.679 --> 0:12:42.559 But it's been an disease or a calamity being inflected 0:12:42.600 --> 0:12:46.480 on these people. It became sort of a cover, a 0:12:46.600 --> 0:12:50.199 swap screening per se to many of the mental diseases 0:12:50.240 --> 0:12:52.520 that a lot of people in the developing world, especially 0:12:52.559 --> 0:12:55.240 the Muslim world, are going through. These people are shunned, 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:58.920 they have been subjected, as I said, all sorts of abuse. 0:12:59.559 --> 0:13:02.559 Um then attempt to take that whatever possessed them out 0:13:02.559 --> 0:13:05.480 of their system. You know what's shocking is the fact 0:13:05.520 --> 0:13:10.720 that it is seen as less Basically, there's more stigma 0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:15.079 attached to understanding these phenomena's mental illness than there is that. Oh, 0:13:15.280 --> 0:13:18.560 like the better option is is deciding that now this 0:13:18.640 --> 0:13:21.080 is like a demon possessing you versus oh, maybe it's 0:13:21.120 --> 0:13:24.559 mental illness. You think that would be a greater stigma, right, 0:13:24.559 --> 0:13:26.600 Like how do you marry off your daughter or your 0:13:26.600 --> 0:13:28.920 son if you're like, yeah, she's got a demon, but look, 0:13:29.480 --> 0:13:31.360 she's mentally healthy, but she's guys, is a demon you 0:13:31.400 --> 0:13:33.559 gotta deal with. I mean it's you know how they're 0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:36.080 weighing that. So but but look, you have been um 0:13:36.320 --> 0:13:40.440 in chaplaincy providing pastoral care to a young American Muslims 0:13:40.480 --> 0:13:44.320 for what two decades? Like what twenty years now? Twenty 0:13:44.400 --> 0:13:46.680 years now? And so I am sure at that time 0:13:46.720 --> 0:13:53.200 you have seen your share of situations where people come 0:13:53.200 --> 0:13:55.640 to you thinking that they are afflicted by something like this. 0:13:56.840 --> 0:13:59.079 I have seen the good, the bed and the ugly. 0:13:59.160 --> 0:14:02.120 I don't know where should I start. Um, there is 0:14:02.160 --> 0:14:05.160 also good in this I have seen. I hope your 0:14:05.240 --> 0:14:08.440 program and similar programs will be a further invitation to 0:14:08.559 --> 0:14:13.040 explore how the whole conversation around gin and ghosts and 0:14:13.080 --> 0:14:18.720 black magic the traditional medieval language, especially if it is 0:14:18.760 --> 0:14:22.840 seen as not literal but symbolic allegorical way of explaining 0:14:23.720 --> 0:14:28.240 inner world of our souls and its connection. Um, and 0:14:28.520 --> 0:14:32.320 especially if people with some psychological background or like me, 0:14:32.640 --> 0:14:36.480 pastoral care background with some religious background, if they study 0:14:37.080 --> 0:14:41.040 this genealogy, if that's the correct word, this Jin literature 0:14:41.720 --> 0:14:45.160 um through that lenses. There is so much wisdom to 0:14:45.240 --> 0:14:49.600 be explored and explored in a good way. I think 0:14:49.720 --> 0:14:54.280 some of the language around Jin's no living much longer 0:14:54.280 --> 0:14:57.040 than human beings know in your history. If you think 0:14:57.480 --> 0:15:03.080 Jens are like energies and somehow at some point through 0:15:03.160 --> 0:15:08.560 some experiences in your childhood, if these a certain sort 0:15:08.560 --> 0:15:13.920 of psychology or energy constantly malfunctioning and sucking all the 0:15:14.040 --> 0:15:17.480 energy out of your system and slowing you down or 0:15:17.600 --> 0:15:21.640 causing emotional distress, there's so much to be explained. There 0:15:21.680 --> 0:15:23.640 are not many people who are trying to bridge the 0:15:23.680 --> 0:15:28.760 modern psychology with the medieval, traditional culture and religious language 0:15:28.760 --> 0:15:33.200 around Gin. I have had many good teachers who never 0:15:33.320 --> 0:15:37.640 charge money, who never really who never really tried to 0:15:37.680 --> 0:15:40.640 exploit the situation on vulnerable people. And I have seen 0:15:40.800 --> 0:15:46.120 few honest, pious religious people who are helping with their 0:15:46.240 --> 0:15:50.040 knowledge of this Gin literature in the past. But that's 0:15:50.080 --> 0:15:55.320 far and few in between, unfortunately, unfortunately, Well, how how 0:15:55.360 --> 0:15:57.800 have you approached this issue when you've been confronted by it? 0:15:58.920 --> 0:16:03.640 I don't dismiss it like most psychologists and most modern 0:16:03.840 --> 0:16:08.359 literature or chaplains do it. I don't. I don't necessarily 0:16:08.920 --> 0:16:12.720 I believe it conveys a message. I believe it gives 0:16:12.720 --> 0:16:16.840 you a tool to communicate something not easily communicatable. I 0:16:16.920 --> 0:16:21.120 don't believe it as a literal I view categoric. This 0:16:21.200 --> 0:16:23.480 might be even controversial in some Muslim sort. Oh no, 0:16:23.600 --> 0:16:30.040 are you about to like, uh like excommunicate yourself as 0:16:30.080 --> 0:16:31.800 if I haven't done this already with a lot of 0:16:31.800 --> 0:16:35.560 other issues, right, But I I really don't believe. I 0:16:35.600 --> 0:16:39.480 believe Jenn's exist. I believe the basic chronic and the 0:16:39.520 --> 0:16:43.000 prophetic message around them, but I categorically don't believe that 0:16:43.040 --> 0:16:46.200 they They can't have any effect on you, and you 0:16:46.280 --> 0:16:49.400 can't have any connection with it. They can harm you. 0:16:49.800 --> 0:16:53.560 I don't think so. I it really contradicts my concept 0:16:53.600 --> 0:16:57.600 of what is fair, God's God's mercy and compassion. If 0:16:57.600 --> 0:17:00.560 you want, we can go there theologically what. I believe 0:17:00.600 --> 0:17:04.600 they are there for a reason, Like the planets animals, 0:17:04.960 --> 0:17:08.280 we learned so much from them. I think they The 0:17:08.520 --> 0:17:12.080 sciences on these other creations can be a helpful tool, 0:17:12.240 --> 0:17:16.480 especially for Jins trying to map out our soul map 0:17:16.520 --> 0:17:19.920 out our emotional world and develop a tool and language 0:17:19.920 --> 0:17:23.440 where we can actually engage with different aspects of human psychology, 0:17:23.520 --> 0:17:27.280 human sexuality, human soul. They have that. To me, they 0:17:27.280 --> 0:17:31.000 have a utilitarian role, and the utilitarian role only can 0:17:31.080 --> 0:17:36.240 fulfill itself if he can not exclusive but primarily study 0:17:36.320 --> 0:17:39.879 this Jin literature in our religion and traditions as a symbolic, 0:17:39.920 --> 0:17:44.560 allegorical not literal things. So when you when you've had 0:17:44.920 --> 0:17:47.240 people from the community or students who say they believe 0:17:47.280 --> 0:17:50.600 that they're afflicted by this, to you, that's like a 0:17:50.680 --> 0:17:55.120 door opening into the window of their basically mental state 0:17:55.119 --> 0:17:57.480 of mind, right like their mental health or state of mind. 0:17:57.840 --> 0:17:59.959 And it's just a language for you to be able. 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:03.160 We used to approach that absolutely. You said it more big. 0:18:03.240 --> 0:18:05.439 Can I give you an example. I had a student 0:18:05.800 --> 0:18:09.480 about a decade ago. He was convinced that there was 0:18:09.520 --> 0:18:12.240 a gin and he was told by a jaw Do 0:18:12.520 --> 0:18:16.199 or a person in Pakistan by that it's always a 0:18:16.200 --> 0:18:21.320 person in Pakistan on whatsappen homosexual tendencies or his attraction 0:18:21.359 --> 0:18:27.080 to same sex was caused by a particular Persian jink. 0:18:27.880 --> 0:18:30.119 So I have a whole story like I could have 0:18:30.160 --> 0:18:33.280 easily said that stupid and nonsense. You are gay because 0:18:33.320 --> 0:18:37.639 God created you this way, or this is something psychological 0:18:38.359 --> 0:18:41.679 nature or nurture. I just can't imagine the torment that 0:18:41.760 --> 0:18:44.439 young man must have felt to hear this. That is, 0:18:44.640 --> 0:18:50.120 that's so abusive. And and if I could, I could 0:18:50.160 --> 0:18:53.400 just travel to Pakistan and find a way to make 0:18:53.400 --> 0:18:57.160 sure this guy in Pakistan is arrested. Apparently he's very popular. 0:18:57.560 --> 0:19:02.000 He charges hundred dollars an hour um and in Pakistan, 0:19:02.040 --> 0:19:04.720 as you know that said wealth, imagine it's a lot 0:19:04.720 --> 0:19:07.440 of money. He must be charging more now. But this 0:19:07.600 --> 0:19:12.120 idiot in Pakistan, this corrupt soult, This morally repugnant so 0:19:12.200 --> 0:19:16.239 called spiritual leader made this eighteen year old believe that 0:19:16.280 --> 0:19:19.520 he's gay or he has gay tendencies because of this 0:19:19.600 --> 0:19:23.040 Persian gin in him, and he can do all sorts 0:19:23.080 --> 0:19:26.879 of Look, it's terrible. I cannot even come close to 0:19:26.960 --> 0:19:29.200 understand the things that he asked him to do so 0:19:29.359 --> 0:19:31.600 that this jin will go out of his system, including 0:19:31.680 --> 0:19:35.000 drinking urine, Oh my god, and and things like that. 0:19:35.280 --> 0:19:37.040 And he did all of this. Of course, being gay 0:19:37.040 --> 0:19:42.680 doesn't go anyway. He's in a much better place now. 0:19:42.800 --> 0:19:47.480 He's uh, he's a very successful personally and professionally. Thank god. 0:19:47.600 --> 0:19:51.000 I think our relationship over the years have played a 0:19:51.080 --> 0:19:54.639 modest role in his ability to find out what his 0:19:54.760 --> 0:19:59.239 sexual orientation is and what this actually means and in 0:19:59.359 --> 0:20:06.080 what way is um uh his my my me, not 0:20:06.400 --> 0:20:10.640 totally refusing that Jin's story, why he thinks that's the case, 0:20:10.680 --> 0:20:15.000 why there's an external effect or pressure on him make 0:20:15.080 --> 0:20:17.800 him feel this way. It sort of helped us to 0:20:17.840 --> 0:20:22.000 develop a respectful language to talk about this. He needed this. 0:20:22.520 --> 0:20:25.200 He just couldn't bring himself to admit that he could 0:20:25.240 --> 0:20:27.840 be gay. It must be caused by something that he 0:20:27.880 --> 0:20:31.960 could fix, and he was holding onto that hope. I 0:20:32.000 --> 0:20:34.760 am glad I didn't destroy that hope immediately, but over 0:20:34.880 --> 0:20:38.120 time he's increased self awareness about who he is and 0:20:38.160 --> 0:20:42.040 what this issue is about. He himself arrived at that conclusion, 0:20:42.680 --> 0:20:46.720 and that process helped him tremendously. I mean, he's lucky 0:20:46.720 --> 0:20:50.080 he had you there, Like in any other in another scenario, 0:20:50.440 --> 0:20:52.480 that could have gone so terribly wrong, And mean he 0:20:52.480 --> 0:20:55.080 could that could have ended up in him hurting himself 0:20:55.160 --> 0:20:57.600 and him sound like, yeah, that could have ended up 0:20:57.640 --> 0:21:00.359 so badly and that's just terrible. And and if you 0:21:00.720 --> 0:21:04.000 look at the polls and statistics people who commit suicide 0:21:04.160 --> 0:21:07.360 or cause harm and her to themselves and others, there 0:21:07.400 --> 0:21:10.280 is a large proportion of them are coming from this 0:21:10.840 --> 0:21:14.560 inner struggle, mental health issues, etcetera. And that's for a reason. 0:21:15.440 --> 0:21:17.000 This could have gone really wrong. He could have gone 0:21:17.000 --> 0:21:20.000 to a shrink and shrink would say this is all nonsense, 0:21:20.320 --> 0:21:22.960 don't believe in any of this. Just celebrate your gainness. 0:21:23.280 --> 0:21:25.640 He wasn't there at the beginning. He couldn't even bring 0:21:25.720 --> 0:21:30.040 himself to even say the war or he could be 0:21:30.160 --> 0:21:35.040 still in the destructive, destructive handle that idiot in Pakistan, 0:21:36.200 --> 0:21:38.919 and that guy could have sucked the life out of him. 0:21:39.080 --> 0:21:44.040 We'll be right back after the short break. During the series, 0:21:44.440 --> 0:21:48.639 in different different episodes, we do explore situations in which 0:21:49.280 --> 0:21:52.360 people have been exploited sexually but also like this financially 0:21:52.359 --> 0:21:55.400 in many different ways because the manipulation of this kind 0:21:55.400 --> 0:21:57.760 of charlotteans. But let me ask you this. You did 0:21:57.800 --> 0:22:00.000 say right now a little while ago, that you fundamental 0:22:00.040 --> 0:22:03.160 they believe that these are creatures that exist. Right, So 0:22:03.240 --> 0:22:07.000 if that's the case, what we're talking about maybe, or 0:22:07.040 --> 0:22:08.679 one way to think about it is that we kind 0:22:08.720 --> 0:22:11.240 of all exist in our different dimensions, right, Like God 0:22:11.280 --> 0:22:13.399 exists in his dimension and we exist. Now, do you 0:22:13.440 --> 0:22:17.240 think that it's possible that there are times when the 0:22:17.320 --> 0:22:20.080 veil between the dimensions thins, or that there are people 0:22:20.119 --> 0:22:22.600 who are maybe more receptive to other dimensions that like 0:22:22.640 --> 0:22:24.840 a skeptic like me. Not, I'm not a skeptic. That's 0:22:25.000 --> 0:22:27.000 actually the wrong word. I'm like you, I believe it, 0:22:27.119 --> 0:22:30.080 but I'm just one of those people. Like I really 0:22:30.119 --> 0:22:32.320 thought by the end of this UM series I would 0:22:32.359 --> 0:22:34.600 be like I'd have a gin possessed me, or or 0:22:34.640 --> 0:22:37.800 at least contact me, Like I haven't even been contacted, right, 0:22:37.800 --> 0:22:39.680 I just feel like I got this wall to whatever 0:22:39.800 --> 0:22:42.760 other dimension. It's not gonna happen for me. Maybe you two, 0:22:42.880 --> 0:22:47.280 But do you think there are some people that is possible? No? Really, 0:22:47.640 --> 0:22:51.240 I honestly don't. And if if that was such a power, 0:22:52.000 --> 0:22:55.480 I think it was given to profits and messengers who 0:22:55.640 --> 0:23:01.240 are innately UM ready and also trained by God and 0:23:01.280 --> 0:23:05.679 by angels to receive, to communicate, to be UM, to 0:23:05.800 --> 0:23:09.680 be able to have access to that world. I don't think. So, 0:23:09.680 --> 0:23:12.720 So what about go ahead? Maybe because I have seen 0:23:12.760 --> 0:23:16.199 so much of that abuse, Yeah, I categorically become an 0:23:16.200 --> 0:23:22.120 agnostic that no one can have direct access to that world, 0:23:22.800 --> 0:23:26.000 and then it gives them such a power, such an 0:23:26.040 --> 0:23:29.480 incredible power that I am so against that power. It's 0:23:29.520 --> 0:23:34.879 always often used for evil purposes. No, no, no, I 0:23:34.920 --> 0:23:36.760 was just speaking of I mean, there's like five different 0:23:36.760 --> 0:23:39.119 things I would ask you in falling up to that. 0:23:39.160 --> 0:23:43.520 But actually, um, speaking of power in in Pakistan, South Asia, 0:23:43.520 --> 0:23:46.399 I'm thinking Bangladesh and in those countries, you know, black 0:23:46.480 --> 0:23:51.040 magic is like it's very heavily used, even though it's 0:23:51.080 --> 0:23:53.120 kind of like underground. You're not supposed to be doing 0:23:53.119 --> 0:23:55.920 it obviously, it's not like allowed religiously, but it's a 0:23:55.960 --> 0:23:59.200 big thing. It's a big thing, and many people swear that. Look, 0:23:59.280 --> 0:24:03.959 there there are ways that you can kind of, you know, 0:24:04.119 --> 0:24:06.320 harness the power of gin to do something like to 0:24:06.400 --> 0:24:08.640 harm other people, to whatever kind of black magic you're 0:24:08.640 --> 0:24:10.879 trying to do. I wonder what the culture around that is. 0:24:10.920 --> 0:24:16.199 In Turkey, it's the same, Um, it's the same. But 0:24:16.359 --> 0:24:19.320 I think in South Asia, I hope I'm not generalizing 0:24:19.359 --> 0:24:21.960 too much. It's fine, it's okay, you can generalize on 0:24:22.040 --> 0:24:26.160 my shown. I think in South Asia it's out of control. Yeah, 0:24:26.560 --> 0:24:30.320 quite Honestly, it's not only among a certain population of 0:24:30.400 --> 0:24:34.160 certain economic socio economic it's all over the place. It's amazing. 0:24:34.400 --> 0:24:35.960