Speaker 1: Welcome to The Hidden Gin, a production of I Heart
Speaker 1: Radio and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Minky. Listener discretion
Speaker 1: is advised, Hi, and welcome to this very special bonus
Speaker 1: series of The Hidden Gin. The interviews in these episodes,
Speaker 1: you'll hear me talk to people from all walks of
Speaker 1: life who have had Gin experiences, are drawn to the
Speaker 1: stories of Gin and draw lessons from these stories. You'll
Speaker 1: hear from artists, scholars, writers, journalists, and Gin exorcists, and
Speaker 1: even from me as I discuss how and why this
Speaker 1: series came about in a very personal conversation with my husband.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening and enjoy this week. I'm really excited
Speaker 1: for you to meet my dear friend, Abdullah and Tapley.
Speaker 1: Abula is a chaplain and he is the Associate Professor
Speaker 1: of the Practice of Interfaith Relations at the Duke Divinity School.
Speaker 1: He's also an associate professor at the Sanford School of
Speaker 1: Public Policy. He has an incredible, incredible career. I met
Speaker 1: him first in Hartford, Connecticut, when I moved to Hartford
Speaker 1: after I got remarried to my husband or Fawn, who
Speaker 1: you heard from in the first episode, and my husband
Speaker 1: was studying to be a chaplain. Well, he was already chaplain,
Speaker 1: but he was doing another chaplain cy degree, and we
Speaker 1: moved to Hartford, Connecticut so he could go to the
Speaker 1: Heart for seminary and Abdulah is the first person we met.
Speaker 1: He took us under his wing. He introduced us to
Speaker 1: the community, and he's amazing. So he's known as the
Speaker 1: Blue Devil in mom because he's at Duke University. To
Speaker 1: tell you a little bit about him, he from two
Speaker 1: thousand and three he worked on a bunch of faith
Speaker 1: based in humanitarian and relief projects in me and mar
Speaker 1: and Malaysia. He's a founder and executive board member of
Speaker 1: the Association of College Muslim Chaplains. He has served as
Speaker 1: the first Muslim chaplain and Wesleyan. I mean, he just
Speaker 1: has like this incredible career. He was Duke University's first
Speaker 1: Muslim chaplain and then he became Duke's Chief Representative of
Speaker 1: Muslim Affairs, where he engages student, faculty and staff across
Speaker 1: the world pretty much. He is also a fellow on
Speaker 1: Jewish Muslim Relations at the Shalom Hartman Institute and he's
Speaker 1: actually the co director of the Muslim Leadership Initiative, and
Speaker 1: that's a program that I did with him many many
Speaker 1: years ago, but he's worked so long in the community
Speaker 1: as a chaplain providing pastoral care to community members going
Speaker 1: through all kinds of issues and students, especially in college campuses,
Speaker 1: And we had just an incredible conversation around how that
Speaker 1: pastoral care sometimes came right up against the issues around
Speaker 1: like religious beliefs and spiritual beliefs, and how for some
Speaker 1: students show such a difficult space to navigate. So alright,
Speaker 1: check out this week's episode and enjoy my conversation with
Speaker 1: a Dulla. I I know this is totally at my wheelhouse,
Speaker 1: and I know you were like surprised to hear when
Speaker 1: I'm thinking when I told you what I'm doing, but
Speaker 1: I know you've been listening to the show, so that's
Speaker 1: thank you for that. I am just fascinated. I was
Speaker 1: surprised a little bit. Yes, it came out a little
Speaker 1: unusual from what you have been doing already, but everything
Speaker 1: you do come up meaningful, wonderful healing. And the first
Speaker 1: and a half episode I have listened just didn't disappoint
Speaker 1: me that you are putting together beautifully. How many different
Speaker 1: traditions world cultures have engaged with this topic, and I
Speaker 1: think you are even making people sort of creative questions
Speaker 1: more than just giving some simple answers. I hope, I
Speaker 1: hope so. But you know, so, I want to start off,
Speaker 1: and I've told our listeners a bit about your background
Speaker 1: and how how long we've known each other and been friends,
Speaker 1: and your might been my mentor for for a long
Speaker 1: time now. But I would like you to tell our
Speaker 1: listeners a little bit about your background and your upbringing
Speaker 1: so they know what part of the world you're coming from,
Speaker 1: and and a little bit about your culture. Sure, I am,
Speaker 1: as my students call me, a Turkish delight or a
Speaker 1: Turkish delight. Imam originally from Turkey. I grew up in
Speaker 1: the southeastern part of Turkey in a very secular household initially,
Speaker 1: but became very religious in my early teenage years. And
Speaker 1: that religiosity, that attraction to Islam, so you were like
Speaker 1: radicalized basically, Yes, I was born again Muslim. And thank
Speaker 1: god this this could have ended really terribly given how
Speaker 1: many different variations were in the market. I had the
Speaker 1: good teachers, good mentors, good friends. I could have ended up.
Speaker 1: I remember in nineteen eighties, people were recruiting for jihad
Speaker 1: in Afghanistan, and they look very appealing. It was incredible
Speaker 1: religious fervor and language. I was very, very attracted to it.
Speaker 1: But somehow, mainly through glenn Movement and Glenn's moderate teaching,
Speaker 1: I was able to remain a moderate but still my curiosity,
Speaker 1: my anxious hyper personality always allowed me to look for
Speaker 1: different adventures. And I left Turkey immediately after college and
Speaker 1: then lived in Southeast Asia, my hometown in my birth
Speaker 1: town too, exactly exactly in in India, extensively traveled in
Speaker 1: India Pakistan, and in addition to being Turkish, I am
Speaker 1: also South Asian and Southeast Asian. Really I always felt
Speaker 1: I should I should have been born in Lahore, and
Speaker 1: absolutely everybody should be born in Lahore. And I also
Speaker 1: related to the topic that we are covering. I was
Speaker 1: able to see how the mystical beings and ghosts and
Speaker 1: jins and and jaw doos and all these things have
Speaker 1: been so uniquely in that part of the world. Lived
Speaker 1: as an experience, and for the last twenty years or
Speaker 1: so living in the United States, most recently here at
Speaker 1: Duke University as the Blue Devil, I mom again as
Speaker 1: my students call me, as a mom, as a professor
Speaker 1: of Islam, as a as a huge fan of you
Speaker 1: thinking working really hard to imagine that maybe in our
Speaker 1: children's generation, Islam is a religion and Muslims as people
Speaker 1: mustim Americans will have a better place in American society
Speaker 1: and will be better a messages to this faith tradition
Speaker 1: that we are part of. I hope so, and also
Speaker 1: I also hope we come to I also hope as
Speaker 1: a community we get we get to be better at
Speaker 1: what we're supposed to be doing. We know about that. UM.
Speaker 1: So let me ask you this. UM. You so you
Speaker 1: because you were able to see you you were in
Speaker 1: lots of different Muslim spaces globally, right. But I want
Speaker 1: to know, like when it comes to this topic, like
Speaker 1: you said, so you were you kind of gravitated towards
Speaker 1: the Googlan movement. UM and not a lot of people
Speaker 1: know what that is. But the whole mystical didn't have
Speaker 1: kind of a mystical side of it, like an esoteric
Speaker 1: mystical teaching is a close like Sufism. Was there a
Speaker 1: lot of was there? What was it? I'll be honest.
Speaker 1: I was raised by my mother who was um, you
Speaker 1: know who is Wahabi, meaning she was kind of a fundamentalist.
Speaker 1: They're very they're very spiritual, they're really not very spiritual,
Speaker 1: and so we did not talk about these things. It
Speaker 1: was like, yeah, yeah, it's there, is supposed to be there,
Speaker 1: but whatever, you know, but what about you? Um I
Speaker 1: in the Good Moment is not a traditional Sufi order
Speaker 1: per se, but the Islam that they represent is deeply,
Speaker 1: deeply embedded in the Sufi teachings of the Anatolian Turkish communities.
Speaker 1: As you might already know earlier in the Republic, by
Speaker 1: the violent implementation of secularism in Turkey, all the Sufi
Speaker 1: shrines were outload and their orders were closed, etcetera. A
Speaker 1: lot of the Sufi moments went underground, and some of
Speaker 1: them survived as the Swiftly Order. But the Good At
Speaker 1: movement it's a religious moment but also a social political moment.
Speaker 1: They draw so much teaching from the from the various
Speaker 1: Sufi orders. But also it's amazing. My my parents were
Speaker 1: not religious. I grew up in an somewhat other white
Speaker 1: Turkish nationalist tradition. Even though they were not religious, they
Speaker 1: had so many superstitious well they believed in Jin's they
Speaker 1: believed in Nazar, they believed in Hasset, they believed in
Speaker 1: the evil eye, they believed in the power of evil gays,
Speaker 1: that you could harm other people, or they believe that
Speaker 1: the jins sometimes touched you. We had a couple of
Speaker 1: mentally ill people in my in our neighborhood, and often
Speaker 1: they're very severe mental health emotional health problem. We're always
Speaker 1: explained to me as possessed by gin or their parents
Speaker 1: did something wrong as they were raising them, or they
Speaker 1: were as they were having sexual relationship during the moments
Speaker 1: that a gin somehow entered into the soul of this
Speaker 1: woman or this man. Wow, I did not know about
Speaker 1: that theory there. Yeah, there is a that or I
Speaker 1: don't know if you heard that one. It's a very
Speaker 1: common belief that urine invites jin's and if you urinate
Speaker 1: into a wrong place, or if you have urine in
Speaker 1: part of your home or clothes, that could be you know,
Speaker 1: that could make you vulnerable towards the effect of a
Speaker 1: gin et cetera. I was always fascinated, but at the
Speaker 1: same time, I simultaneously I hope this will be a
Speaker 1: very honest and candid warning to the audience as you
Speaker 1: study and learn about jin's um in many parts of
Speaker 1: the world, not limited to the Muslim world, including the
Speaker 1: United States. Because this is such a delicate subject, it
Speaker 1: sort of claims to connect you to the world of unseen.
Speaker 1: It's sort of claims sometimes to explain this unseen world
Speaker 1: and try to relate it you. There's so much a
Speaker 1: spiritual corruption in this field. Absolutely, people who are claiming
Speaker 1: to communicate that unseen world and language. There are so
Speaker 1: many charlatans and cheaters and groups um con artists. I
Speaker 1: have seen all sorts of people jaw dos who basically
Speaker 1: use this to build a spiritual authority on other people
Speaker 1: and abuse that authority financially, sexually, emotionally, and otherwise. There
Speaker 1: is so much corruption, and there is so much I
Speaker 1: don't know how to say respectfully. Bs um the lies
Speaker 1: b bs is good. Yeah, Yeah, there's a lot of
Speaker 1: exploitation of this. There is a lot of exploitation of
Speaker 1: this topic. And what I've seen is that exploitation ends
Speaker 1: up um people who are very innocent and trust these
Speaker 1: kind of clerics and these spiritual leaders like they end
Speaker 1: up harming their loved ones when they take it as
Speaker 1: the gospel truth that oh it must be a spiritual disease.
Speaker 1: It's like somebody's black magic. It's a gin instead of
Speaker 1: addressing like actual mental health issue. I'm curious you said
Speaker 1: there's a mentally ill people in your community, your neighborhood
Speaker 1: when you're growing up, and you were told that they
Speaker 1: were affected by gin? Does that mean they were not
Speaker 1: given like mental health treatment, they didn't get another professional care, Like,
Speaker 1: how were they dealt with? Then? Not at all? Not
Speaker 1: at all. Especially it's a lot better now in Turkish societies.
Speaker 1: But I have seen similar deeply rooted stigma around mental
Speaker 1: health in many of the developing world, in many of
Speaker 1: the Muslim world, And I mean it exists here too,
Speaker 1: but yeah, yeah, yeah, it's croquitly in the United States
Speaker 1: among my students. How modern psychology, modern mental health, pastoral care,
Speaker 1: or even clinical psychology is always uh, it's very difficult
Speaker 1: for anyone to bring themselves to the level of openness
Speaker 1: that you need to have. Um. There's so much fear,
Speaker 1: there's so much taboo around it. Um. And and in
Speaker 1: a way, this whole gin possession black magic became some
Speaker 1: sort of a cop out answer. Um, because if you
Speaker 1: have a mental disease, that means you're crazy. That means
Speaker 1: your children will never marry suitable people. That means your
Speaker 1: reputation and standing in the community will be ruined because
Speaker 1: you come from a gene of crazy people somehow making
Speaker 1: up these stories instead of seeing this as a disease
Speaker 1: that's treatable to a certain extent, somehow these evil vicious beings, uh,
Speaker 1: this swotless fire somehow affecting and therefore it's not their fault.
Speaker 1: But it's been an disease or a calamity being inflected
Speaker 1: on these people. It became sort of a cover, a
Speaker 1: swap screening per se to many of the mental diseases
Speaker 1: that a lot of people in the developing world, especially
Speaker 1: the Muslim world, are going through. These people are shunned,
Speaker 1: they have been subjected, as I said, all sorts of abuse.
Speaker 1: Um then attempt to take that whatever possessed them out
Speaker 1: of their system. You know what's shocking is the fact
Speaker 1: that it is seen as less Basically, there's more stigma
Speaker 1: attached to understanding these phenomena's mental illness than there is that. Oh,
Speaker 1: like the better option is is deciding that now this
Speaker 1: is like a demon possessing you versus oh, maybe it's
Speaker 1: mental illness. You think that would be a greater stigma, right,
Speaker 1: Like how do you marry off your daughter or your
Speaker 1: son if you're like, yeah, she's got a demon, but look,
Speaker 1: she's mentally healthy, but she's guys, is a demon you
Speaker 1: gotta deal with. I mean it's you know how they're
Speaker 1: weighing that. So but but look, you have been um
Speaker 1: in chaplaincy providing pastoral care to a young American Muslims
Speaker 1: for what two decades? Like what twenty years now? Twenty
Speaker 1: years now? And so I am sure at that time
Speaker 1: you have seen your share of situations where people come
Speaker 1: to you thinking that they are afflicted by something like this.
Speaker 1: I have seen the good, the bed and the ugly.
Speaker 1: I don't know where should I start. Um, there is
Speaker 1: also good in this I have seen. I hope your
Speaker 1: program and similar programs will be a further invitation to
Speaker 1: explore how the whole conversation around gin and ghosts and
Speaker 1: black magic the traditional medieval language, especially if it is
Speaker 1: seen as not literal but symbolic allegorical way of explaining
Speaker 1: inner world of our souls and its connection. Um, and
Speaker 1: especially if people with some psychological background or like me,
Speaker 1: pastoral care background with some religious background, if they study
Speaker 1: this genealogy, if that's the correct word, this Jin literature
Speaker 1: um through that lenses. There is so much wisdom to
Speaker 1: be explored and explored in a good way. I think
Speaker 1: some of the language around Jin's no living much longer
Speaker 1: than human beings know in your history. If you think
Speaker 1: Jens are like energies and somehow at some point through
Speaker 1: some experiences in your childhood, if these a certain sort
Speaker 1: of psychology or energy constantly malfunctioning and sucking all the
Speaker 1: energy out of your system and slowing you down or
Speaker 1: causing emotional distress, there's so much to be explained. There
Speaker 1: are not many people who are trying to bridge the
Speaker 1: modern psychology with the medieval, traditional culture and religious language
Speaker 1: around Gin. I have had many good teachers who never
Speaker 1: charge money, who never really who never really tried to
Speaker 1: exploit the situation on vulnerable people. And I have seen
Speaker 1: few honest, pious religious people who are helping with their
Speaker 1: knowledge of this Gin literature in the past. But that's
Speaker 1: far and few in between, unfortunately, unfortunately, Well, how how
Speaker 1: have you approached this issue when you've been confronted by it?
Speaker 1: I don't dismiss it like most psychologists and most modern
Speaker 1: literature or chaplains do it. I don't. I don't necessarily
Speaker 1: I believe it conveys a message. I believe it gives
Speaker 1: you a tool to communicate something not easily communicatable. I
Speaker 1: don't believe it as a literal I view categoric. This
Speaker 1: might be even controversial in some Muslim sort. Oh no,
Speaker 1: are you about to like, uh like excommunicate yourself as
Speaker 1: if I haven't done this already with a lot of
Speaker 1: other issues, right, But I I really don't believe. I
Speaker 1: believe Jenn's exist. I believe the basic chronic and the
Speaker 1: prophetic message around them, but I categorically don't believe that
Speaker 1: they They can't have any effect on you, and you
Speaker 1: can't have any connection with it. They can harm you.
Speaker 1: I don't think so. I it really contradicts my concept
Speaker 1: of what is fair, God's God's mercy and compassion. If
Speaker 1: you want, we can go there theologically what. I believe
Speaker 1: they are there for a reason, Like the planets animals,
Speaker 1: we learned so much from them. I think they The
Speaker 1: sciences on these other creations can be a helpful tool,
Speaker 1: especially for Jins trying to map out our soul map
Speaker 1: out our emotional world and develop a tool and language
Speaker 1: where we can actually engage with different aspects of human psychology,
Speaker 1: human sexuality, human soul. They have that. To me, they
Speaker 1: have a utilitarian role, and the utilitarian role only can
Speaker 1: fulfill itself if he can not exclusive but primarily study
Speaker 1: this Jin literature in our religion and traditions as a symbolic,
Speaker 1: allegorical not literal things. So when you when you've had
Speaker 1: people from the community or students who say they believe
Speaker 1: that they're afflicted by this, to you, that's like a
Speaker 1: door opening into the window of their basically mental state
Speaker 1: of mind, right like their mental health or state of mind.
Speaker 1: And it's just a language for you to be able.
Speaker 1: We used to approach that absolutely. You said it more big.
Speaker 1: Can I give you an example. I had a student
Speaker 1: about a decade ago. He was convinced that there was
Speaker 1: a gin and he was told by a jaw Do
Speaker 1: or a person in Pakistan by that it's always a
Speaker 1: person in Pakistan on whatsappen homosexual tendencies or his attraction
Speaker 1: to same sex was caused by a particular Persian jink.
Speaker 1: So I have a whole story like I could have
Speaker 1: easily said that stupid and nonsense. You are gay because
Speaker 1: God created you this way, or this is something psychological
Speaker 1: nature or nurture. I just can't imagine the torment that
Speaker 1: young man must have felt to hear this. That is,
Speaker 1: that's so abusive. And and if I could, I could
Speaker 1: just travel to Pakistan and find a way to make
Speaker 1: sure this guy in Pakistan is arrested. Apparently he's very popular.
Speaker 1: He charges hundred dollars an hour um and in Pakistan,
Speaker 1: as you know that said wealth, imagine it's a lot
Speaker 1: of money. He must be charging more now. But this
Speaker 1: idiot in Pakistan, this corrupt soult, This morally repugnant so
Speaker 1: called spiritual leader made this eighteen year old believe that
Speaker 1: he's gay or he has gay tendencies because of this
Speaker 1: Persian gin in him, and he can do all sorts
Speaker 1: of Look, it's terrible. I cannot even come close to
Speaker 1: understand the things that he asked him to do so
Speaker 1: that this jin will go out of his system, including
Speaker 1: drinking urine, Oh my god, and and things like that.
Speaker 1: And he did all of this. Of course, being gay
Speaker 1: doesn't go anyway. He's in a much better place now.
Speaker 1: He's uh, he's a very successful personally and professionally. Thank god.
Speaker 1: I think our relationship over the years have played a
Speaker 1: modest role in his ability to find out what his
Speaker 1: sexual orientation is and what this actually means and in
Speaker 1: what way is um uh his my my me, not
Speaker 1: totally refusing that Jin's story, why he thinks that's the case,
Speaker 1: why there's an external effect or pressure on him make
Speaker 1: him feel this way. It sort of helped us to
Speaker 1: develop a respectful language to talk about this. He needed this.
Speaker 1: He just couldn't bring himself to admit that he could
Speaker 1: be gay. It must be caused by something that he
Speaker 1: could fix, and he was holding onto that hope. I
Speaker 1: am glad I didn't destroy that hope immediately, but over
Speaker 1: time he's increased self awareness about who he is and
Speaker 1: what this issue is about. He himself arrived at that conclusion,
Speaker 1: and that process helped him tremendously. I mean, he's lucky
Speaker 1: he had you there, Like in any other in another scenario,
Speaker 1: that could have gone so terribly wrong, And mean he
Speaker 1: could that could have ended up in him hurting himself
Speaker 1: and him sound like, yeah, that could have ended up
Speaker 1: so badly and that's just terrible. And and if you
Speaker 1: look at the polls and statistics people who commit suicide
Speaker 1: or cause harm and her to themselves and others, there
Speaker 1: is a large proportion of them are coming from this
Speaker 1: inner struggle, mental health issues, etcetera. And that's for a reason.
Speaker 1: This could have gone really wrong. He could have gone
Speaker 1: to a shrink and shrink would say this is all nonsense,
Speaker 1: don't believe in any of this. Just celebrate your gainness.
Speaker 1: He wasn't there at the beginning. He couldn't even bring
Speaker 1: himself to even say the war or he could be
Speaker 1: still in the destructive, destructive handle that idiot in Pakistan,
Speaker 1: and that guy could have sucked the life out of him.
Speaker 1: We'll be right back after the short break. During the series,
Speaker 1: in different different episodes, we do explore situations in which
Speaker 1: people have been exploited sexually but also like this financially
Speaker 1: in many different ways because the manipulation of this kind
Speaker 1: of charlotteans. But let me ask you this. You did
Speaker 1: say right now a little while ago, that you fundamental
Speaker 1: they believe that these are creatures that exist. Right, So
Speaker 1: if that's the case, what we're talking about maybe, or
Speaker 1: one way to think about it is that we kind
Speaker 1: of all exist in our different dimensions, right, Like God
Speaker 1: exists in his dimension and we exist. Now, do you
Speaker 1: think that it's possible that there are times when the
Speaker 1: veil between the dimensions thins, or that there are people
Speaker 1: who are maybe more receptive to other dimensions that like
Speaker 1: a skeptic like me. Not, I'm not a skeptic. That's
Speaker 1: actually the wrong word. I'm like you, I believe it,
Speaker 1: but I'm just one of those people. Like I really
Speaker 1: thought by the end of this UM series I would
Speaker 1: be like I'd have a gin possessed me, or or
Speaker 1: at least contact me, Like I haven't even been contacted, right,
Speaker 1: I just feel like I got this wall to whatever
Speaker 1: other dimension. It's not gonna happen for me. Maybe you two,
Speaker 1: But do you think there are some people that is possible? No? Really,
Speaker 1: I honestly don't. And if if that was such a power,
Speaker 1: I think it was given to profits and messengers who
Speaker 1: are innately UM ready and also trained by God and
Speaker 1: by angels to receive, to communicate, to be UM, to
Speaker 1: be able to have access to that world. I don't think. So,
Speaker 1: So what about go ahead? Maybe because I have seen
Speaker 1: so much of that abuse, Yeah, I categorically become an
Speaker 1: agnostic that no one can have direct access to that world,
Speaker 1: and then it gives them such a power, such an
Speaker 1: incredible power that I am so against that power. It's
Speaker 1: always often used for evil purposes. No, no, no, I
Speaker 1: was just speaking of I mean, there's like five different
Speaker 1: things I would ask you in falling up to that.
Speaker 1: But actually, um, speaking of power in in Pakistan, South Asia,
Speaker 1: I'm thinking Bangladesh and in those countries, you know, black
Speaker 1: magic is like it's very heavily used, even though it's
Speaker 1: kind of like underground. You're not supposed to be doing
Speaker 1: it obviously, it's not like allowed religiously, but it's a
Speaker 1: big thing. It's a big thing, and many people swear that. Look,
Speaker 1: there there are ways that you can kind of, you know,
Speaker 1: harness the power of gin to do something like to
Speaker 1: harm other people, to whatever kind of black magic you're
Speaker 1: trying to do. I wonder what the culture around that is.
Speaker 1: In Turkey, it's the same, Um, it's the same. But
Speaker 1: I think in South Asia, I hope I'm not generalizing
Speaker 1: too much. It's fine, it's okay, you can generalize on
Speaker 1: my shown. I think in South Asia it's out of control. Yeah,
Speaker 1: quite Honestly, it's not only among a certain population of
Speaker 1: certain economic socio economic it's all over the place. It's amazing.
Speaker 1: I think it might go as far as the Prime
Speaker 1: Minister of the LA at this point. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't know if you know anything about his story
Speaker 1: and his latest wife, but it's interesting. I'm always well,
Speaker 1: you know, imron Hahn is the prime minister, and I
Speaker 1: Ron Hahn's latest wife is hit was a woman who
Speaker 1: was his spiritual advisor up until recent She's a married
Speaker 1: woman with grandchildren, and suddenly she can and you know,
Speaker 1: she claims to these spiritual powers which you can see
Speaker 1: who's doing what to him, and he really believed in
Speaker 1: her for years, and then she came to him at
Speaker 1: one point and said, I've been given revelation by God
Speaker 1: that you're supposed to marry me. Now she's a married woman.
Speaker 1: Her husband also came to him and said, I give
Speaker 1: permission for my wife to divorce me and marry you,
Speaker 1: the prime minister. And that's exactly what happened. So she
Speaker 1: is now his wife, but also his spiritual advisor who
Speaker 1: uses like these types of things to help him make
Speaker 1: governmental decisions. Apparently it's what I've heard it's what I'm her.
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's horrifying. You are just touching my unhealed
Speaker 1: wounds about this. Anybody who believes in this crap shouldn't
Speaker 1: be a prime minister of any country. Anybody who can
Speaker 1: be calmed by any like God is speaking to me,
Speaker 1: I should marry you. Um. And there are some really
Speaker 1: painful examples recently, just as of last week. A Sufi
Speaker 1: chef who who who convinced a mother that God spoke
Speaker 1: to these men that he should have sex with with
Speaker 1: her twelve year old daughter? Oh my god, where in Turkey?
Speaker 1: And then thankfully it's sort of father had a little
Speaker 1: bit more sense and mother gave this daughter, two year
Speaker 1: old daughter to this guy. And it's a it's a
Speaker 1: major public event. The last couple of weeks, Turks are
Speaker 1: talking about nothing but this issue scandal. It's a huge
Speaker 1: blow to the reputation of religion and religious people and
Speaker 1: religious leaders in general. Um. Was he a well known
Speaker 1: was he a well known religious leader? Well known, quite
Speaker 1: well known in certain segments, and quite well one apparently
Speaker 1: has thousands of followers. But a father of the twelfth
Speaker 1: year old went to police and everything just came onto surface,
Speaker 1: it's ugly, and then he and then they found out
Speaker 1: that he molested multiple children younger than twelve, ten, eleven nine.
Speaker 1: So here's a pedophile using this uh sort of deceptive
Speaker 1: power that he has access the Gin's and black magic,
Speaker 1: that he can actually heal people from the curse, from
Speaker 1: the Nazar, from the evil eye, and then using this
Speaker 1: con artists abilities and skills to do all sorts of harms.
Speaker 1: In most cases, everybody is innocent until they're proven guilty.
Speaker 1: But when it comes with gin black magic, everybody is
Speaker 1: guilty unless they really prove that they are not. That's
Speaker 1: my attitude, and that should be the attitude of most sane, educated, believing,
Speaker 1: practicing Muslims and other other people. But why I totally
Speaker 1: dismissed it despite my very clear disgust and the test
Speaker 1: of these people is, I think there's a way in
Speaker 1: which this issue, even though they don't really have any
Speaker 1: power um. Over the years I came to realize some
Speaker 1: of their practices of for example, this black magic. If
Speaker 1: you look at what they do, I don't believe they
Speaker 1: communicate with Jin's, but they sort of go through the
Speaker 1: childhood of these individuals, they pick up certain patterns of
Speaker 1: their mistakes. They put an honest mirror before them, so
Speaker 1: we're not even knowing and having the proper exact trading.
Speaker 1: They become this masterful overtime therapists U and these people
Speaker 1: find comfort in this through they increased self awareness, they
Speaker 1: have more motivation and empowerment in them, and they sort
Speaker 1: of get healed. So there's there's like some kind of
Speaker 1: therapy happening without anybody realizing it exactly exactly. And and
Speaker 1: and also nobody wants to remain in pain. Nobody wants
Speaker 1: to wake up every morning sitting on a pile of unprocessed,
Speaker 1: unexplainable internal struggle. So there's so much desire to get better,
Speaker 1: feel better, live a good life. Combination of this unintentional
Speaker 1: therapy and people is willing to get better. I think
Speaker 1: some magical things happen here. I have seen many people.
Speaker 1: I have seen many people really going through very deep
Speaker 1: clinical depression, so much sort of it's crippling them through
Speaker 1: these black magic or jaw do sounds. Over time they
Speaker 1: got better. But I think there's a different explanation. I
Speaker 1: don't think they got it's a possible effect exactly exactly exactly.
Speaker 1: And also not entirely place ebo in a way. Not
Speaker 1: these people are getting on their own by positive thinking thinking,
Speaker 1: that's something agical happening. I believe in the power of therapy.
Speaker 1: My years of my pastoral care education showed me how
Speaker 1: amazing the science of psychology has improved. How much more
Speaker 1: we know now about what takes people off, how their
Speaker 1: emotional world function. And these techniques of therapy do you
Speaker 1: help people? But unfortunately a lot of these evil people
Speaker 1: they use these techniques successfully, but they package it in
Speaker 1: the form of communicating with gens or reading certain prayers
Speaker 1: and rituals, or they blow into a leaf or a
Speaker 1: water and that becomes heating effect. That's all crap. I
Speaker 1: don't believe any of it. Okay, Having said that, here's
Speaker 1: a question. I feel like I know the answer already,
Speaker 1: but I want to ask you the question. Anyways, have
Speaker 1: you personally ever had an experience that you could not explain? Oh?
Speaker 1: Many times? Okay, tell me about it, many many times.
Speaker 1: I have been um especially, I think you a very
Speaker 1: good example. Something happened that I found myself because Trump
Speaker 1: was elected. What happened? You know? I love you, know
Speaker 1: how much I love America. I over idealized America and
Speaker 1: how much I invested in American mustim identity. This is
Speaker 1: my entire universe. Like I never thought it would get
Speaker 1: this bad and this ugly, And since then, periodically I
Speaker 1: found myself in a state of depression and sadness, Like
Speaker 1: I don't understand why, Um, I've on myself spending really
Speaker 1: hours struggling in the thickness of deep sadness and that
Speaker 1: it sort of paralyzes me. I just don't know why
Speaker 1: I cannot I'm not watching the news, not something physically
Speaker 1: and listen. So you're saying this started in twenty s
Speaker 1: not like just since the pandemic began. No, Okay, In
Speaker 1: so many ways this pandemic is now helping me, huh.
Speaker 1: This slowing down, not traveling, not in too busy, being
Speaker 1: at home, taking long walks. In so many ways, It's
Speaker 1: amazing how much it became a heating power and therapy
Speaker 1: to me. But look, many people are depressed because of
Speaker 1: what's going on in our political system. It since sixteen,
Speaker 1: but mine was unusual. It was striking me in the
Speaker 1: middle of nowhere. It was I couldn't drive. There were
Speaker 1: several moments I had toppl over and take a couple
Speaker 1: of a couple of deep breath and then and the
Speaker 1: wishpring of these negative thoughts um and and like the
Speaker 1: worst kids, not nightmare scenarios. It was just flooding in
Speaker 1: my in my and then I have very good therapist,
Speaker 1: and I know which resources in my spiritual and religious
Speaker 1: tradition to look for. And it was very clear that
Speaker 1: it wasn't just one thing. It wasn't suddenly a gin
Speaker 1: or a ghost or a black magic was on me.
Speaker 1: And my mother absolutely believes I got physically sick couple
Speaker 1: of times, and she believed that it's black magic that
Speaker 1: we should do X, Y and Z. It was very
Speaker 1: clear at the end of this four years process, especially
Speaker 1: the pandemics help. But no, it was a minor political
Speaker 1: depression as a result of accumulated losses of dreams that
Speaker 1: I the old high hopes and expectations that I have
Speaker 1: built for Turkey, for America, for American Islam, all these
Speaker 1: lost dreams. You know, it's sayding, That's what a lot
Speaker 1: of these gin people or magic people know. They ask
Speaker 1: you your unfulfill dreams. They asked you about unfinished aspirations.
Speaker 1: That's that's where you get all these amorphal cuts so
Speaker 1: deep that you always wanted to be X Y and
Speaker 1: Z wanted to do ABC but never happened. And they
Speaker 1: sort of explore this and they built the whole jin
Speaker 1: story around that, like the ginn are preventing you from
Speaker 1: doing this. I've heard this. I've heard this from friends
Speaker 1: from very good, brilliant, smart, lovely friends of mine who said, well,
Speaker 1: I I wanted to do this project or do this
Speaker 1: with my life, and I can't because I'm bound by
Speaker 1: gin uh. And it's shocking here. But let me ask
Speaker 1: you in that experience, what was What was the part
Speaker 1: that was like inexplicable to you? It was just where
Speaker 1: this is coming from. Was there a supernatural element to this?
Speaker 1: You believe it was always strucking in the happiest moments,
Speaker 1: like there are places Ablulah and is happy when he's praying,
Speaker 1: when he's with Muslims, when he's with his children, when
Speaker 1: he's eating lamp chop or mumming. Yeah, you like their meats.
Speaker 1: I know those times, Ablulah. I'm type you should be
Speaker 1: a little Christmas tree just burst enjoy. It was coming
Speaker 1: in that way. And also it was it was constantly
Speaker 1: it was affecting me physically. It never happened to me before.
Speaker 1: I never I was sad many times. I had many
Speaker 1: traumatic experiences. I lived in war zones, but it wasn't
Speaker 1: crippling me physically. This was new in the last couple
Speaker 1: of years. Maybe I mean too personal. No, No, I didn't.
Speaker 1: I didn't know you were going through this, And I'm
Speaker 1: really sad that I did. I wish I had known earlier. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was. It was rough a couple of years, and
Speaker 1: and it would just disappear on its own. It was
Speaker 1: so intense, sudden, it comes and goes. It hits you
Speaker 1: like a stick. And this disappears usually previous sadness or
Speaker 1: minor depression. It sort of comes gradually, it stays with you.
Speaker 1: There's always some sort of a visible trigger or mental
Speaker 1: trigger to that stuff, which was out of the blue.
Speaker 1: And like, I can totally see how subtle a do
Speaker 1: or a say here, a person, a black magic person
Speaker 1: can build a whole gin story as a as a
Speaker 1: result of this, and why so many things are going
Speaker 1: wrong in Turkey, in America, even American Muslim communities, or
Speaker 1: personally to me, that somebody is jealous or envious or
Speaker 1: has to put a curse on you put a person
Speaker 1: you and it's it's amazing. I think people should be
Speaker 1: incredibly resilient if they are not being as successful, as
Speaker 1: good looking, as charming, as social, as popular as they want,
Speaker 1: all of those things right here, right here there. I
Speaker 1: think rarely it's because there's somebody who's so jealous that
Speaker 1: his or her way and has the time and energy.
Speaker 1: Right yeah, I just don't think so. I've never seen
Speaker 1: a physical evidence. Hey, I don't think anybody has that power.
Speaker 1: I don't believe anybody can be. Very few people are
Speaker 1: that much entrenched in vengeance and hatred your life, just
Speaker 1: trying to ruin your and also Pakistani housewives who might
Speaker 1: disagree like I'm related to them, it's a divorcee couple
Speaker 1: or if uttering husband or something like that. But some
Speaker 1: of the stories like there's this um, there's again the
Speaker 1: same student. He was convinced that this Persian jin who
Speaker 1: makes him gay was about a Hindu family in India,
Speaker 1: that this Hindu family knew who he was and just
Speaker 1: was doing this magic with some really anti Semitic judaism
Speaker 1: here and there. If you wait, wait, so there was
Speaker 1: a Hindu family, a Persian gin and anti semitism all
Speaker 1: in the same story used. I think as part of
Speaker 1: this program, maybe you should collect some of these stories.
Speaker 1: I would love to and and then people are in it.
Speaker 1: They don't understand how crazy, how irrational, and how stupid
Speaker 1: this is sometimes and maybebe if people here from other resources,
Speaker 1: other people's experiences, like who can't make anybody drink urine?
Speaker 1: I I just don't know. But again, this educated people
Speaker 1: going to one of the best colleges in the in
Speaker 1: the in the world, and he believed that that was
Speaker 1: his desperation, that was his desperation, and that's a whole yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: how did he well? I want to know for you
Speaker 1: the experience you went through, which so unexplicable to you.
Speaker 1: You don't believe there's any supernatural element there. How did
Speaker 1: you did it just suddenly go away as quickly as
Speaker 1: it came on? No, because my initial diagnosis was not
Speaker 1: I panicked. My initial diagnosis and my ongoing therapy as
Speaker 1: a chaplain and you have to have a chapter and
Speaker 1: you have to have a person who is also taking
Speaker 1: care of your well being. I think those people also
Speaker 1: were not used to this side of me. This was
Speaker 1: something really unique and new. That's why the jin sort
Speaker 1: of made a lot more sense to my mother. Um,
Speaker 1: it didn't go away. Still, it didn't go away, but
Speaker 1: I think I have a better handle of it now.
Speaker 1: I have a way in which I can go back
Speaker 1: and revisit these over idealized America, over idealized American Islam,
Speaker 1: American Muslim community, or idealized secular democracy in Turkey. It is.
Speaker 1: It is my own sort of recabalt caliber or my
Speaker 1: own expectation and seeing where it really hurts me and
Speaker 1: attending to those hurt and neglect is. But at least
Speaker 1: I can breathe. It's it's not coming as frequent as
Speaker 1: it used to be, and it's not hitting as strong
Speaker 1: as it used to be, but it's an ongoing issue.
Speaker 1: You know. The emotional depression is nothing but an emotional pain,
Speaker 1: like physical pain. You cut yourself and you're that healing.
Speaker 1: If the if the world is so deep, it takes
Speaker 1: a lot of time. Yeah, yeah, it does take a
Speaker 1: lot of time, and sometimes it takes a lifetime. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: there's quickly summarized and recap. My general take on this
Speaker 1: gin ghost black magic story. I think these are real
Speaker 1: in the sense that there is a world that our
Speaker 1: microscopes and are tell scopes can see and and there
Speaker 1: is the world, and there are creatures and beings that
Speaker 1: God Almighty has created live and function in that world.
Speaker 1: There is a way in which we can learn without
Speaker 1: necessarily having direct access to them, through their manifestation and
Speaker 1: through their stories told in our tradition. And some of
Speaker 1: these stories and realities that we have access to can
Speaker 1: shed light into the modern psychology, human soul, our emotional world.
Speaker 1: What makes us who we are and why are we
Speaker 1: so peculiar in certain like why what are we attracted to? What?
Speaker 1: What turns us on? What turns us off? There's so
Speaker 1: much unexplainable aspects of human life and human soul. I
Speaker 1: think that literature through these utilitarian eyes, without believing any
Speaker 1: superstitious superpowers, should be studied in line with modern psychology.
Speaker 1: And so I think there's no question that much of
Speaker 1: our belief around Gin or angels or even God is
Speaker 1: projections of what we think and feel and what we know,
Speaker 1: because that's how our imagination is limited. Right when even
Speaker 1: when we think about these creatures, the supernatural beings we
Speaker 1: would leave in we're limited to the language that we know,
Speaker 1: the emotions that we know, the of abilities, the capabilities
Speaker 1: of powers that we believe could exist or do exist,
Speaker 1: and that's it. And so that's just such. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: that's evidence. And of then neb I am what my
Speaker 1: servant thinks of me? Right, God said, Yeah? Yeah, God,
Speaker 1: is this fire breathing, angry dragon who wants to punish
Speaker 1: people for no reason? Then look effectively the God. The
Speaker 1: energy will be that negative, destructive energy. That's your own projection, projection.
Speaker 1: And I think a lot of the people, or these
Speaker 1: spiritual creatures gain power because of people's perception. Welllthough, I
Speaker 1: will say I'm only slightly disappointed because I was hoping
Speaker 1: you would tell me that you have control over our
Speaker 1: whole tribe of Gin or something. Imagine how many more
Speaker 1: problems we could all Right, thank you so much again
Speaker 1: of the I love seeing you, love you, love your family,
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, stay safe and stay happy. I
Speaker 1: hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did. Now,
Speaker 1: there are as many people in the world with Jin
Speaker 1: stories as there are Gin, So if you have one
Speaker 1: you'd like to share, make sure to email it to
Speaker 1: me at the Hidden Gin at gmail dot com. That's
Speaker 1: the Hidden Gin. Th H e H I D D
Speaker 1: E N d J I n N at gmail dot com.
Speaker 1: And until next time, remember we are not alone. The
Speaker 1: Hidden Gin is a production of I Heart Radio and
Speaker 1: Grimm and Mild from Aaron Minkey. The podcast is written
Speaker 1: and hosted by Robbia Chaudry and produced by Miranda Hawkins
Speaker 1: and Trevor Young, with executive producers Aaron Mankey, Alex Williams,
Speaker 1: and Matt Frederick. Our theme song was created by Patrick Quartetz.
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit the I
Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.