1 00:00:02,120 --> 00:00:05,120 Speaker 1: Welcome to The Hidden Gin, a production of I Heart 2 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:09,520 Speaker 1: Radio and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Minky. Listener discretion 3 00:00:09,640 --> 00:00:32,919 Speaker 1: is advised, Hi, and welcome to this very special bonus 4 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:37,199 Speaker 1: series of The Hidden Gin. The interviews in these episodes, 5 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:39,479 Speaker 1: you'll hear me talk to people from all walks of 6 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:42,600 Speaker 1: life who have had Gin experiences, are drawn to the 7 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:46,560 Speaker 1: stories of Gin and draw lessons from these stories. You'll 8 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:51,360 Speaker 1: hear from artists, scholars, writers, journalists, and Gin exorcists, and 9 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:53,800 Speaker 1: even from me as I discuss how and why this 10 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:58,200 Speaker 1: series came about in a very personal conversation with my husband. 11 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:06,560 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening and enjoy this week. I'm really excited 12 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:09,120 Speaker 1: for you to meet my dear friend, Abdullah and Tapley. 13 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 1: Abula is a chaplain and he is the Associate Professor 14 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:18,199 Speaker 1: of the Practice of Interfaith Relations at the Duke Divinity School. 15 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 1: He's also an associate professor at the Sanford School of 16 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 1: Public Policy. He has an incredible, incredible career. I met 17 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 1: him first in Hartford, Connecticut, when I moved to Hartford 18 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 1: after I got remarried to my husband or Fawn, who 19 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 1: you heard from in the first episode, and my husband 20 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:37,559 Speaker 1: was studying to be a chaplain. Well, he was already chaplain, 21 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 1: but he was doing another chaplain cy degree, and we 22 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:41,640 Speaker 1: moved to Hartford, Connecticut so he could go to the 23 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:44,200 Speaker 1: Heart for seminary and Abdulah is the first person we met. 24 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 1: He took us under his wing. He introduced us to 25 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 1: the community, and he's amazing. So he's known as the 26 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:53,720 Speaker 1: Blue Devil in mom because he's at Duke University. To 27 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:56,560 Speaker 1: tell you a little bit about him, he from two 28 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 1: thousand and three he worked on a bunch of faith 29 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 1: based in humanitarian and relief projects in me and mar 30 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 1: and Malaysia. He's a founder and executive board member of 31 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 1: the Association of College Muslim Chaplains. He has served as 32 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 1: the first Muslim chaplain and Wesleyan. I mean, he just 33 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:15,519 Speaker 1: has like this incredible career. He was Duke University's first 34 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:18,959 Speaker 1: Muslim chaplain and then he became Duke's Chief Representative of 35 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:23,079 Speaker 1: Muslim Affairs, where he engages student, faculty and staff across 36 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 1: the world pretty much. He is also a fellow on 37 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 1: Jewish Muslim Relations at the Shalom Hartman Institute and he's 38 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:32,920 Speaker 1: actually the co director of the Muslim Leadership Initiative, and 39 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: that's a program that I did with him many many 40 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:38,320 Speaker 1: years ago, but he's worked so long in the community 41 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 1: as a chaplain providing pastoral care to community members going 42 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 1: through all kinds of issues and students, especially in college campuses, 43 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:50,799 Speaker 1: And we had just an incredible conversation around how that 44 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:55,079 Speaker 1: pastoral care sometimes came right up against the issues around 45 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 1: like religious beliefs and spiritual beliefs, and how for some 46 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:03,120 Speaker 1: students show such a difficult space to navigate. So alright, 47 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:06,240 Speaker 1: check out this week's episode and enjoy my conversation with 48 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 1: a Dulla. I I know this is totally at my wheelhouse, 49 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:11,960 Speaker 1: and I know you were like surprised to hear when 50 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:14,360 Speaker 1: I'm thinking when I told you what I'm doing, but 51 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:16,119 Speaker 1: I know you've been listening to the show, so that's 52 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:19,520 Speaker 1: thank you for that. I am just fascinated. I was 53 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 1: surprised a little bit. Yes, it came out a little 54 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 1: unusual from what you have been doing already, but everything 55 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 1: you do come up meaningful, wonderful healing. And the first 56 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:32,360 Speaker 1: and a half episode I have listened just didn't disappoint 57 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 1: me that you are putting together beautifully. How many different 58 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 1: traditions world cultures have engaged with this topic, and I 59 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 1: think you are even making people sort of creative questions 60 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 1: more than just giving some simple answers. I hope, I 61 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 1: hope so. But you know, so, I want to start off, 62 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:53,840 Speaker 1: and I've told our listeners a bit about your background 63 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 1: and how how long we've known each other and been friends, 64 00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 1: and your might been my mentor for for a long 65 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 1: time now. But I would like you to tell our 66 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 1: listeners a little bit about your background and your upbringing 67 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 1: so they know what part of the world you're coming from, 68 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 1: and and a little bit about your culture. Sure, I am, 69 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 1: as my students call me, a Turkish delight or a 70 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 1: Turkish delight. Imam originally from Turkey. I grew up in 71 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 1: the southeastern part of Turkey in a very secular household initially, 72 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 1: but became very religious in my early teenage years. And 73 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 1: that religiosity, that attraction to Islam, so you were like 74 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:32,719 Speaker 1: radicalized basically, Yes, I was born again Muslim. And thank 75 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 1: god this this could have ended really terribly given how 76 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:40,360 Speaker 1: many different variations were in the market. I had the 77 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 1: good teachers, good mentors, good friends. I could have ended up. 78 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 1: I remember in nineteen eighties, people were recruiting for jihad 79 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 1: in Afghanistan, and they look very appealing. It was incredible 80 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:57,560 Speaker 1: religious fervor and language. I was very, very attracted to it. 81 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:02,840 Speaker 1: But somehow, mainly through glenn Movement and Glenn's moderate teaching, 82 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:08,840 Speaker 1: I was able to remain a moderate but still my curiosity, 83 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 1: my anxious hyper personality always allowed me to look for 84 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:19,440 Speaker 1: different adventures. And I left Turkey immediately after college and 85 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:25,359 Speaker 1: then lived in Southeast Asia, my hometown in my birth 86 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 1: town too, exactly exactly in in India, extensively traveled in 87 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 1: India Pakistan, and in addition to being Turkish, I am 88 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 1: also South Asian and Southeast Asian. Really I always felt 89 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:41,159 Speaker 1: I should I should have been born in Lahore, and 90 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:46,559 Speaker 1: absolutely everybody should be born in Lahore. And I also 91 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 1: related to the topic that we are covering. I was 92 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:54,680 Speaker 1: able to see how the mystical beings and ghosts and 93 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 1: jins and and jaw doos and all these things have 94 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:01,840 Speaker 1: been so uniquely in that part of the world. Lived 95 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 1: as an experience, and for the last twenty years or 96 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:07,760 Speaker 1: so living in the United States, most recently here at 97 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 1: Duke University as the Blue Devil, I mom again as 98 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 1: my students call me, as a mom, as a professor 99 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:18,360 Speaker 1: of Islam, as a as a huge fan of you 100 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:22,920 Speaker 1: thinking working really hard to imagine that maybe in our 101 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:26,480 Speaker 1: children's generation, Islam is a religion and Muslims as people 102 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 1: mustim Americans will have a better place in American society 103 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 1: and will be better a messages to this faith tradition 104 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:35,479 Speaker 1: that we are part of. I hope so, and also 105 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 1: I also hope we come to I also hope as 106 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:40,279 Speaker 1: a community we get we get to be better at 107 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:43,840 Speaker 1: what we're supposed to be doing. We know about that. UM. 108 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 1: So let me ask you this. UM. You so you 109 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 1: because you were able to see you you were in 110 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:53,280 Speaker 1: lots of different Muslim spaces globally, right. But I want 111 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:56,200 Speaker 1: to know, like when it comes to this topic, like 112 00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:59,160 Speaker 1: you said, so you were you kind of gravitated towards 113 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:01,360 Speaker 1: the Googlan movement. UM and not a lot of people 114 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:05,719 Speaker 1: know what that is. But the whole mystical didn't have 115 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 1: kind of a mystical side of it, like an esoteric 116 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 1: mystical teaching is a close like Sufism. Was there a 117 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:14,559 Speaker 1: lot of was there? What was it? I'll be honest. 118 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 1: I was raised by my mother who was um, you 119 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 1: know who is Wahabi, meaning she was kind of a fundamentalist. 120 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 1: They're very they're very spiritual, they're really not very spiritual, 121 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 1: and so we did not talk about these things. It 122 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 1: was like, yeah, yeah, it's there, is supposed to be there, 123 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:30,680 Speaker 1: but whatever, you know, but what about you? Um I 124 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 1: in the Good Moment is not a traditional Sufi order 125 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 1: per se, but the Islam that they represent is deeply, 126 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 1: deeply embedded in the Sufi teachings of the Anatolian Turkish communities. 127 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 1: As you might already know earlier in the Republic, by 128 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 1: the violent implementation of secularism in Turkey, all the Sufi 129 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: shrines were outload and their orders were closed, etcetera. A 130 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 1: lot of the Sufi moments went underground, and some of 131 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 1: them survived as the Swiftly Order. But the Good At 132 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 1: movement it's a religious moment but also a social political moment. 133 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 1: They draw so much teaching from the from the various 134 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 1: Sufi orders. But also it's amazing. My my parents were 135 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 1: not religious. I grew up in an somewhat other white 136 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:23,120 Speaker 1: Turkish nationalist tradition. Even though they were not religious, they 137 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 1: had so many superstitious well they believed in Jin's they 138 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:29,440 Speaker 1: believed in Nazar, they believed in Hasset, they believed in 139 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:33,679 Speaker 1: the evil eye, they believed in the power of evil gays, 140 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:35,880 Speaker 1: that you could harm other people, or they believe that 141 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 1: the jins sometimes touched you. We had a couple of 142 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:43,920 Speaker 1: mentally ill people in my in our neighborhood, and often 143 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 1: they're very severe mental health emotional health problem. We're always 144 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 1: explained to me as possessed by gin or their parents 145 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 1: did something wrong as they were raising them, or they 146 00:08:56,640 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 1: were as they were having sexual relationship during the moments 147 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 1: that a gin somehow entered into the soul of this 148 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:06,080 Speaker 1: woman or this man. Wow, I did not know about 149 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:11,319 Speaker 1: that theory there. Yeah, there is a that or I 150 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 1: don't know if you heard that one. It's a very 151 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:19,840 Speaker 1: common belief that urine invites jin's and if you urinate 152 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 1: into a wrong place, or if you have urine in 153 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 1: part of your home or clothes, that could be you know, 154 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:27,440 Speaker 1: that could make you vulnerable towards the effect of a 155 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 1: gin et cetera. I was always fascinated, but at the 156 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:36,079 Speaker 1: same time, I simultaneously I hope this will be a 157 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:39,320 Speaker 1: very honest and candid warning to the audience as you 158 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:42,720 Speaker 1: study and learn about jin's um in many parts of 159 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 1: the world, not limited to the Muslim world, including the 160 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 1: United States. Because this is such a delicate subject, it 161 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:53,559 Speaker 1: sort of claims to connect you to the world of unseen. 162 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 1: It's sort of claims sometimes to explain this unseen world 163 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 1: and try to relate it you. There's so much a 164 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 1: spiritual corruption in this field. Absolutely, people who are claiming 165 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:11,640 Speaker 1: to communicate that unseen world and language. There are so 166 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:17,440 Speaker 1: many charlatans and cheaters and groups um con artists. I 167 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:21,840 Speaker 1: have seen all sorts of people jaw dos who basically 168 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 1: use this to build a spiritual authority on other people 169 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:32,480 Speaker 1: and abuse that authority financially, sexually, emotionally, and otherwise. There 170 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:35,800 Speaker 1: is so much corruption, and there is so much I 171 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:39,319 Speaker 1: don't know how to say respectfully. Bs um the lies 172 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 1: b bs is good. Yeah, Yeah, there's a lot of 173 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:47,199 Speaker 1: exploitation of this. There is a lot of exploitation of 174 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:49,840 Speaker 1: this topic. And what I've seen is that exploitation ends 175 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:54,719 Speaker 1: up um people who are very innocent and trust these 176 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:57,600 Speaker 1: kind of clerics and these spiritual leaders like they end 177 00:10:57,679 --> 00:11:01,320 Speaker 1: up harming their loved ones when they take it as 178 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 1: the gospel truth that oh it must be a spiritual disease. 179 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 1: It's like somebody's black magic. It's a gin instead of 180 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:09,560 Speaker 1: addressing like actual mental health issue. I'm curious you said 181 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:12,320 Speaker 1: there's a mentally ill people in your community, your neighborhood 182 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:13,760 Speaker 1: when you're growing up, and you were told that they 183 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:16,680 Speaker 1: were affected by gin? Does that mean they were not 184 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 1: given like mental health treatment, they didn't get another professional care, Like, 185 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:22,800 Speaker 1: how were they dealt with? Then? Not at all? Not 186 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 1: at all. Especially it's a lot better now in Turkish societies. 187 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:30,720 Speaker 1: But I have seen similar deeply rooted stigma around mental 188 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:33,199 Speaker 1: health in many of the developing world, in many of 189 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 1: the Muslim world, And I mean it exists here too, 190 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:38,400 Speaker 1: but yeah, yeah, yeah, it's croquitly in the United States 191 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 1: among my students. How modern psychology, modern mental health, pastoral care, 192 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:49,320 Speaker 1: or even clinical psychology is always uh, it's very difficult 193 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:52,599 Speaker 1: for anyone to bring themselves to the level of openness 194 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:55,720 Speaker 1: that you need to have. Um. There's so much fear, 195 00:11:55,800 --> 00:12:00,320 Speaker 1: there's so much taboo around it. Um. And and in 196 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:06,120 Speaker 1: a way, this whole gin possession black magic became some 197 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 1: sort of a cop out answer. Um, because if you 198 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 1: have a mental disease, that means you're crazy. That means 199 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 1: your children will never marry suitable people. That means your 200 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 1: reputation and standing in the community will be ruined because 201 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 1: you come from a gene of crazy people somehow making 202 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:26,120 Speaker 1: up these stories instead of seeing this as a disease 203 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:31,839 Speaker 1: that's treatable to a certain extent, somehow these evil vicious beings, uh, 204 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:37,600 Speaker 1: this swotless fire somehow affecting and therefore it's not their fault. 205 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:42,559 Speaker 1: But it's been an disease or a calamity being inflected 206 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:46,480 Speaker 1: on these people. It became sort of a cover, a 207 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:50,199 Speaker 1: swap screening per se to many of the mental diseases 208 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 1: that a lot of people in the developing world, especially 209 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 1: the Muslim world, are going through. These people are shunned, 210 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:58,920 Speaker 1: they have been subjected, as I said, all sorts of abuse. 211 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:02,559 Speaker 1: Um then attempt to take that whatever possessed them out 212 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:05,480 Speaker 1: of their system. You know what's shocking is the fact 213 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:10,720 Speaker 1: that it is seen as less Basically, there's more stigma 214 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:15,079 Speaker 1: attached to understanding these phenomena's mental illness than there is that. Oh, 215 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:18,560 Speaker 1: like the better option is is deciding that now this 216 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:21,080 Speaker 1: is like a demon possessing you versus oh, maybe it's 217 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:24,559 Speaker 1: mental illness. You think that would be a greater stigma, right, 218 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:26,600 Speaker 1: Like how do you marry off your daughter or your 219 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 1: son if you're like, yeah, she's got a demon, but look, 220 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 1: she's mentally healthy, but she's guys, is a demon you 221 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:33,559 Speaker 1: gotta deal with. I mean it's you know how they're 222 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:36,080 Speaker 1: weighing that. So but but look, you have been um 223 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:40,440 Speaker 1: in chaplaincy providing pastoral care to a young American Muslims 224 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:44,320 Speaker 1: for what two decades? Like what twenty years now? Twenty 225 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:46,680 Speaker 1: years now? And so I am sure at that time 226 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:53,200 Speaker 1: you have seen your share of situations where people come 227 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 1: to you thinking that they are afflicted by something like this. 228 00:13:56,840 --> 00:13:59,079 Speaker 1: I have seen the good, the bed and the ugly. 229 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:02,120 Speaker 1: I don't know where should I start. Um, there is 230 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 1: also good in this I have seen. I hope your 231 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:08,440 Speaker 1: program and similar programs will be a further invitation to 232 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:13,040 Speaker 1: explore how the whole conversation around gin and ghosts and 233 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:18,720 Speaker 1: black magic the traditional medieval language, especially if it is 234 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 1: seen as not literal but symbolic allegorical way of explaining 235 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 1: inner world of our souls and its connection. Um, and 236 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 1: especially if people with some psychological background or like me, 237 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:36,480 Speaker 1: pastoral care background with some religious background, if they study 238 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 1: this genealogy, if that's the correct word, this Jin literature 239 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 1: um through that lenses. There is so much wisdom to 240 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 1: be explored and explored in a good way. I think 241 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 1: some of the language around Jin's no living much longer 242 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 1: than human beings know in your history. If you think 243 00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:03,080 Speaker 1: Jens are like energies and somehow at some point through 244 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:08,560 Speaker 1: some experiences in your childhood, if these a certain sort 245 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:13,920 Speaker 1: of psychology or energy constantly malfunctioning and sucking all the 246 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 1: energy out of your system and slowing you down or 247 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 1: causing emotional distress, there's so much to be explained. There 248 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:23,640 Speaker 1: are not many people who are trying to bridge the 249 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:28,760 Speaker 1: modern psychology with the medieval, traditional culture and religious language 250 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 1: around Gin. I have had many good teachers who never 251 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 1: charge money, who never really who never really tried to 252 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 1: exploit the situation on vulnerable people. And I have seen 253 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 1: few honest, pious religious people who are helping with their 254 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:50,040 Speaker 1: knowledge of this Gin literature in the past. But that's 255 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 1: far and few in between, unfortunately, unfortunately, Well, how how 256 00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 1: have you approached this issue when you've been confronted by it? 257 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 1: I don't dismiss it like most psychologists and most modern 258 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:08,359 Speaker 1: literature or chaplains do it. I don't. I don't necessarily 259 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 1: I believe it conveys a message. I believe it gives 260 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 1: you a tool to communicate something not easily communicatable. I 261 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:21,120 Speaker 1: don't believe it as a literal I view categoric. This 262 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 1: might be even controversial in some Muslim sort. Oh no, 263 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 1: are you about to like, uh like excommunicate yourself as 264 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 1: if I haven't done this already with a lot of 265 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:35,560 Speaker 1: other issues, right, But I I really don't believe. I 266 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 1: believe Jenn's exist. I believe the basic chronic and the 267 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 1: prophetic message around them, but I categorically don't believe that 268 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:46,200 Speaker 1: they They can't have any effect on you, and you 269 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:49,400 Speaker 1: can't have any connection with it. They can harm you. 270 00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 1: I don't think so. I it really contradicts my concept 271 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:57,600 Speaker 1: of what is fair, God's God's mercy and compassion. If 272 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 1: you want, we can go there theologically what. I believe 273 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:04,600 Speaker 1: they are there for a reason, Like the planets animals, 274 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 1: we learned so much from them. I think they The 275 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 1: sciences on these other creations can be a helpful tool, 276 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:16,480 Speaker 1: especially for Jins trying to map out our soul map 277 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:19,920 Speaker 1: out our emotional world and develop a tool and language 278 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:23,440 Speaker 1: where we can actually engage with different aspects of human psychology, 279 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 1: human sexuality, human soul. They have that. To me, they 280 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 1: have a utilitarian role, and the utilitarian role only can 281 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 1: fulfill itself if he can not exclusive but primarily study 282 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:39,879 Speaker 1: this Jin literature in our religion and traditions as a symbolic, 283 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 1: allegorical not literal things. So when you when you've had 284 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:47,240 Speaker 1: people from the community or students who say they believe 285 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 1: that they're afflicted by this, to you, that's like a 286 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:55,120 Speaker 1: door opening into the window of their basically mental state 287 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 1: of mind, right like their mental health or state of mind. 288 00:17:57,840 --> 00:17:59,959 Speaker 1: And it's just a language for you to be able. 289 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:03,160 Speaker 1: We used to approach that absolutely. You said it more big. 290 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:05,439 Speaker 1: Can I give you an example. I had a student 291 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 1: about a decade ago. He was convinced that there was 292 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:12,240 Speaker 1: a gin and he was told by a jaw Do 293 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:16,199 Speaker 1: or a person in Pakistan by that it's always a 294 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:21,320 Speaker 1: person in Pakistan on whatsappen homosexual tendencies or his attraction 295 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 1: to same sex was caused by a particular Persian jink. 296 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:30,119 Speaker 1: So I have a whole story like I could have 297 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 1: easily said that stupid and nonsense. You are gay because 298 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:37,639 Speaker 1: God created you this way, or this is something psychological 299 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:41,679 Speaker 1: nature or nurture. I just can't imagine the torment that 300 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:44,439 Speaker 1: young man must have felt to hear this. That is, 301 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:50,120 Speaker 1: that's so abusive. And and if I could, I could 302 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:53,400 Speaker 1: just travel to Pakistan and find a way to make 303 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:57,160 Speaker 1: sure this guy in Pakistan is arrested. Apparently he's very popular. 304 00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 1: He charges hundred dollars an hour um and in Pakistan, 305 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:04,720 Speaker 1: as you know that said wealth, imagine it's a lot 306 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:07,440 Speaker 1: of money. He must be charging more now. But this 307 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:12,120 Speaker 1: idiot in Pakistan, this corrupt soult, This morally repugnant so 308 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:16,239 Speaker 1: called spiritual leader made this eighteen year old believe that 309 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:19,520 Speaker 1: he's gay or he has gay tendencies because of this 310 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:23,040 Speaker 1: Persian gin in him, and he can do all sorts 311 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:26,879 Speaker 1: of Look, it's terrible. I cannot even come close to 312 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:29,200 Speaker 1: understand the things that he asked him to do so 313 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:31,600 Speaker 1: that this jin will go out of his system, including 314 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 1: drinking urine, Oh my god, and and things like that. 315 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 1: And he did all of this. Of course, being gay 316 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:42,680 Speaker 1: doesn't go anyway. He's in a much better place now. 317 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:47,480 Speaker 1: He's uh, he's a very successful personally and professionally. Thank god. 318 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:51,000 Speaker 1: I think our relationship over the years have played a 319 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:54,639 Speaker 1: modest role in his ability to find out what his 320 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:59,239 Speaker 1: sexual orientation is and what this actually means and in 321 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:06,080 Speaker 1: what way is um uh his my my me, not 322 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:10,640 Speaker 1: totally refusing that Jin's story, why he thinks that's the case, 323 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 1: why there's an external effect or pressure on him make 324 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:17,800 Speaker 1: him feel this way. It sort of helped us to 325 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:22,000 Speaker 1: develop a respectful language to talk about this. He needed this. 326 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:25,200 Speaker 1: He just couldn't bring himself to admit that he could 327 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:27,840 Speaker 1: be gay. It must be caused by something that he 328 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:31,960 Speaker 1: could fix, and he was holding onto that hope. I 329 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 1: am glad I didn't destroy that hope immediately, but over 330 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:38,120 Speaker 1: time he's increased self awareness about who he is and 331 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:42,040 Speaker 1: what this issue is about. He himself arrived at that conclusion, 332 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:46,720 Speaker 1: and that process helped him tremendously. I mean, he's lucky 333 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 1: he had you there, Like in any other in another scenario, 334 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 1: that could have gone so terribly wrong, And mean he 335 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 1: could that could have ended up in him hurting himself 336 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 1: and him sound like, yeah, that could have ended up 337 00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:00,359 Speaker 1: so badly and that's just terrible. And and if you 338 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:04,000 Speaker 1: look at the polls and statistics people who commit suicide 339 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:07,360 Speaker 1: or cause harm and her to themselves and others, there 340 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 1: is a large proportion of them are coming from this 341 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 1: inner struggle, mental health issues, etcetera. And that's for a reason. 342 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 1: This could have gone really wrong. He could have gone 343 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 1: to a shrink and shrink would say this is all nonsense, 344 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:22,960 Speaker 1: don't believe in any of this. Just celebrate your gainness. 345 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:25,640 Speaker 1: He wasn't there at the beginning. He couldn't even bring 346 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 1: himself to even say the war or he could be 347 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:35,040 Speaker 1: still in the destructive, destructive handle that idiot in Pakistan, 348 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:38,919 Speaker 1: and that guy could have sucked the life out of him. 349 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 1: We'll be right back after the short break. During the series, 350 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:48,639 Speaker 1: in different different episodes, we do explore situations in which 351 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:52,360 Speaker 1: people have been exploited sexually but also like this financially 352 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:55,400 Speaker 1: in many different ways because the manipulation of this kind 353 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:57,760 Speaker 1: of charlotteans. But let me ask you this. You did 354 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 1: say right now a little while ago, that you fundamental 355 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:03,160 Speaker 1: they believe that these are creatures that exist. Right, So 356 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:07,000 Speaker 1: if that's the case, what we're talking about maybe, or 357 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:08,679 Speaker 1: one way to think about it is that we kind 358 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:11,240 Speaker 1: of all exist in our different dimensions, right, Like God 359 00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:13,399 Speaker 1: exists in his dimension and we exist. Now, do you 360 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 1: think that it's possible that there are times when the 361 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 1: veil between the dimensions thins, or that there are people 362 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:22,600 Speaker 1: who are maybe more receptive to other dimensions that like 363 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:24,840 Speaker 1: a skeptic like me. Not, I'm not a skeptic. That's 364 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:27,000 Speaker 1: actually the wrong word. I'm like you, I believe it, 365 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 1: but I'm just one of those people. Like I really 366 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:32,320 Speaker 1: thought by the end of this UM series I would 367 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 1: be like I'd have a gin possessed me, or or 368 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 1: at least contact me, Like I haven't even been contacted, right, 369 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:39,680 Speaker 1: I just feel like I got this wall to whatever 370 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 1: other dimension. It's not gonna happen for me. Maybe you two, 371 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:47,280 Speaker 1: But do you think there are some people that is possible? No? Really, 372 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:51,240 Speaker 1: I honestly don't. And if if that was such a power, 373 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:55,480 Speaker 1: I think it was given to profits and messengers who 374 00:22:55,640 --> 00:23:01,240 Speaker 1: are innately UM ready and also trained by God and 375 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:05,679 Speaker 1: by angels to receive, to communicate, to be UM, to 376 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:09,680 Speaker 1: be able to have access to that world. I don't think. So, 377 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:12,720 Speaker 1: So what about go ahead? Maybe because I have seen 378 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:16,199 Speaker 1: so much of that abuse, Yeah, I categorically become an 379 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:22,120 Speaker 1: agnostic that no one can have direct access to that world, 380 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 1: and then it gives them such a power, such an 381 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:29,480 Speaker 1: incredible power that I am so against that power. It's 382 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:34,879 Speaker 1: always often used for evil purposes. No, no, no, I 383 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 1: was just speaking of I mean, there's like five different 384 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:39,119 Speaker 1: things I would ask you in falling up to that. 385 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 1: But actually, um, speaking of power in in Pakistan, South Asia, 386 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:46,399 Speaker 1: I'm thinking Bangladesh and in those countries, you know, black 387 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 1: magic is like it's very heavily used, even though it's 388 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:53,120 Speaker 1: kind of like underground. You're not supposed to be doing 389 00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:55,920 Speaker 1: it obviously, it's not like allowed religiously, but it's a 390 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:59,200 Speaker 1: big thing. It's a big thing, and many people swear that. Look, 391 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:03,959 Speaker 1: there there are ways that you can kind of, you know, 392 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:06,320 Speaker 1: harness the power of gin to do something like to 393 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:08,640 Speaker 1: harm other people, to whatever kind of black magic you're 394 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:10,879 Speaker 1: trying to do. I wonder what the culture around that is. 395 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:16,199 Speaker 1: In Turkey, it's the same, Um, it's the same. But 396 00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:19,320 Speaker 1: I think in South Asia, I hope I'm not generalizing 397 00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:21,960 Speaker 1: too much. It's fine, it's okay, you can generalize on 398 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:26,160 Speaker 1: my shown. I think in South Asia it's out of control. Yeah, 399 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 1: quite Honestly, it's not only among a certain population of 400 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:34,160 Speaker 1: certain economic socio economic it's all over the place. It's amazing. 401 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:35,960 Speaker 1: I think it might go as far as the Prime 402 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:37,959 Speaker 1: Minister of the LA at this point. I don't know. 403 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:40,240 Speaker 1: I don't know if you know anything about his story 404 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:46,720 Speaker 1: and his latest wife, but it's interesting. I'm always well, 405 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 1: you know, imron Hahn is the prime minister, and I 406 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:52,280 Speaker 1: Ron Hahn's latest wife is hit was a woman who 407 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 1: was his spiritual advisor up until recent She's a married 408 00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 1: woman with grandchildren, and suddenly she can and you know, 409 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:01,680 Speaker 1: she claims to these spiritual powers which you can see 410 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:04,359 Speaker 1: who's doing what to him, and he really believed in 411 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:06,520 Speaker 1: her for years, and then she came to him at 412 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 1: one point and said, I've been given revelation by God 413 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:12,160 Speaker 1: that you're supposed to marry me. Now she's a married woman. 414 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:14,480 Speaker 1: Her husband also came to him and said, I give 415 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 1: permission for my wife to divorce me and marry you, 416 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:19,439 Speaker 1: the prime minister. And that's exactly what happened. So she 417 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:23,480 Speaker 1: is now his wife, but also his spiritual advisor who 418 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:27,600 Speaker 1: uses like these types of things to help him make 419 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:32,719 Speaker 1: governmental decisions. Apparently it's what I've heard it's what I'm her. 420 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:36,760 Speaker 1: So yeah, it's horrifying. You are just touching my unhealed 421 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:40,160 Speaker 1: wounds about this. Anybody who believes in this crap shouldn't 422 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:43,040 Speaker 1: be a prime minister of any country. Anybody who can 423 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:46,359 Speaker 1: be calmed by any like God is speaking to me, 424 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,040 Speaker 1: I should marry you. Um. And there are some really 425 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:53,960 Speaker 1: painful examples recently, just as of last week. A Sufi 426 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:58,639 Speaker 1: chef who who who convinced a mother that God spoke 427 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:01,639 Speaker 1: to these men that he should have sex with with 428 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:06,879 Speaker 1: her twelve year old daughter? Oh my god, where in Turkey? 429 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:10,879 Speaker 1: And then thankfully it's sort of father had a little 430 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 1: bit more sense and mother gave this daughter, two year 431 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,959 Speaker 1: old daughter to this guy. And it's a it's a 432 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:19,360 Speaker 1: major public event. The last couple of weeks, Turks are 433 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:23,399 Speaker 1: talking about nothing but this issue scandal. It's a huge 434 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:26,080 Speaker 1: blow to the reputation of religion and religious people and 435 00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:29,920 Speaker 1: religious leaders in general. Um. Was he a well known 436 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 1: was he a well known religious leader? Well known, quite 437 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:36,400 Speaker 1: well known in certain segments, and quite well one apparently 438 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 1: has thousands of followers. But a father of the twelfth 439 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:43,640 Speaker 1: year old went to police and everything just came onto surface, 440 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:46,639 Speaker 1: it's ugly, and then he and then they found out 441 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 1: that he molested multiple children younger than twelve, ten, eleven nine. 442 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:59,199 Speaker 1: So here's a pedophile using this uh sort of deceptive 443 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:02,360 Speaker 1: power that he has access the Gin's and black magic, 444 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:07,520 Speaker 1: that he can actually heal people from the curse, from 445 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 1: the Nazar, from the evil eye, and then using this 446 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:14,439 Speaker 1: con artists abilities and skills to do all sorts of harms. 447 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:19,680 Speaker 1: In most cases, everybody is innocent until they're proven guilty. 448 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,879 Speaker 1: But when it comes with gin black magic, everybody is 449 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:26,480 Speaker 1: guilty unless they really prove that they are not. That's 450 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 1: my attitude, and that should be the attitude of most sane, educated, believing, 451 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:36,240 Speaker 1: practicing Muslims and other other people. But why I totally 452 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:39,840 Speaker 1: dismissed it despite my very clear disgust and the test 453 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:43,320 Speaker 1: of these people is, I think there's a way in 454 00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 1: which this issue, even though they don't really have any 455 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:51,960 Speaker 1: power um. Over the years I came to realize some 456 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:55,399 Speaker 1: of their practices of for example, this black magic. If 457 00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:57,479 Speaker 1: you look at what they do, I don't believe they 458 00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:00,320 Speaker 1: communicate with Jin's, but they sort of go through the 459 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:04,399 Speaker 1: childhood of these individuals, they pick up certain patterns of 460 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:08,119 Speaker 1: their mistakes. They put an honest mirror before them, so 461 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:10,760 Speaker 1: we're not even knowing and having the proper exact trading. 462 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:17,040 Speaker 1: They become this masterful overtime therapists U and these people 463 00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:21,800 Speaker 1: find comfort in this through they increased self awareness, they 464 00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:25,280 Speaker 1: have more motivation and empowerment in them, and they sort 465 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 1: of get healed. So there's there's like some kind of 466 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 1: therapy happening without anybody realizing it exactly exactly. And and 467 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 1: and also nobody wants to remain in pain. Nobody wants 468 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:41,600 Speaker 1: to wake up every morning sitting on a pile of unprocessed, 469 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:48,120 Speaker 1: unexplainable internal struggle. So there's so much desire to get better, 470 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 1: feel better, live a good life. Combination of this unintentional 471 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:57,520 Speaker 1: therapy and people is willing to get better. I think 472 00:28:57,520 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 1: some magical things happen here. I have seen many people. 473 00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:03,720 Speaker 1: I have seen many people really going through very deep 474 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 1: clinical depression, so much sort of it's crippling them through 475 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:12,360 Speaker 1: these black magic or jaw do sounds. Over time they 476 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,280 Speaker 1: got better. But I think there's a different explanation. I 477 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:21,080 Speaker 1: don't think they got it's a possible effect exactly exactly exactly. 478 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 1: And also not entirely place ebo in a way. Not 479 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:27,600 Speaker 1: these people are getting on their own by positive thinking thinking, 480 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:30,920 Speaker 1: that's something agical happening. I believe in the power of therapy. 481 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 1: My years of my pastoral care education showed me how 482 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 1: amazing the science of psychology has improved. How much more 483 00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:43,480 Speaker 1: we know now about what takes people off, how their 484 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 1: emotional world function. And these techniques of therapy do you 485 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:51,440 Speaker 1: help people? But unfortunately a lot of these evil people 486 00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:55,200 Speaker 1: they use these techniques successfully, but they package it in 487 00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:58,960 Speaker 1: the form of communicating with gens or reading certain prayers 488 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:01,920 Speaker 1: and rituals, or they blow into a leaf or a 489 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:05,200 Speaker 1: water and that becomes heating effect. That's all crap. I 490 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 1: don't believe any of it. Okay, Having said that, here's 491 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:10,040 Speaker 1: a question. I feel like I know the answer already, 492 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 1: but I want to ask you the question. Anyways, have 493 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:17,040 Speaker 1: you personally ever had an experience that you could not explain? Oh? 494 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 1: Many times? Okay, tell me about it, many many times. 495 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 1: I have been um especially, I think you a very 496 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:31,240 Speaker 1: good example. Something happened that I found myself because Trump 497 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:35,280 Speaker 1: was elected. What happened? You know? I love you, know 498 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:39,360 Speaker 1: how much I love America. I over idealized America and 499 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:43,280 Speaker 1: how much I invested in American mustim identity. This is 500 00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:47,920 Speaker 1: my entire universe. Like I never thought it would get 501 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:53,360 Speaker 1: this bad and this ugly, And since then, periodically I 502 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 1: found myself in a state of depression and sadness, Like 503 00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:01,320 Speaker 1: I don't understand why, Um, I've on myself spending really 504 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:05,960 Speaker 1: hours struggling in the thickness of deep sadness and that 505 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:08,320 Speaker 1: it sort of paralyzes me. I just don't know why 506 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:12,760 Speaker 1: I cannot I'm not watching the news, not something physically 507 00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:14,800 Speaker 1: and listen. So you're saying this started in twenty s 508 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:19,280 Speaker 1: not like just since the pandemic began. No, Okay, In 509 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:23,400 Speaker 1: so many ways this pandemic is now helping me, huh. 510 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:27,840 Speaker 1: This slowing down, not traveling, not in too busy, being 511 00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:31,480 Speaker 1: at home, taking long walks. In so many ways, It's 512 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:35,120 Speaker 1: amazing how much it became a heating power and therapy 513 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:39,880 Speaker 1: to me. But look, many people are depressed because of 514 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:43,040 Speaker 1: what's going on in our political system. It since sixteen, 515 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:45,760 Speaker 1: but mine was unusual. It was striking me in the 516 00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:48,880 Speaker 1: middle of nowhere. It was I couldn't drive. There were 517 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 1: several moments I had toppl over and take a couple 518 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:55,160 Speaker 1: of a couple of deep breath and then and the 519 00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:59,000 Speaker 1: wishpring of these negative thoughts um and and like the 520 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:02,640 Speaker 1: worst kids, not nightmare scenarios. It was just flooding in 521 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 1: my in my and then I have very good therapist, 522 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:12,240 Speaker 1: and I know which resources in my spiritual and religious 523 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 1: tradition to look for. And it was very clear that 524 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 1: it wasn't just one thing. It wasn't suddenly a gin 525 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:21,520 Speaker 1: or a ghost or a black magic was on me. 526 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:25,560 Speaker 1: And my mother absolutely believes I got physically sick couple 527 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 1: of times, and she believed that it's black magic that 528 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:32,080 Speaker 1: we should do X, Y and Z. It was very 529 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:34,600 Speaker 1: clear at the end of this four years process, especially 530 00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:37,720 Speaker 1: the pandemics help. But no, it was a minor political 531 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:43,600 Speaker 1: depression as a result of accumulated losses of dreams that 532 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:46,360 Speaker 1: I the old high hopes and expectations that I have 533 00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:51,040 Speaker 1: built for Turkey, for America, for American Islam, all these 534 00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:54,239 Speaker 1: lost dreams. You know, it's sayding, That's what a lot 535 00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:57,680 Speaker 1: of these gin people or magic people know. They ask 536 00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:03,800 Speaker 1: you your unfulfill dreams. They asked you about unfinished aspirations. 537 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:07,440 Speaker 1: That's that's where you get all these amorphal cuts so 538 00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,360 Speaker 1: deep that you always wanted to be X Y and 539 00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:13,600 Speaker 1: Z wanted to do ABC but never happened. And they 540 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:16,120 Speaker 1: sort of explore this and they built the whole jin 541 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:19,520 Speaker 1: story around that, like the ginn are preventing you from 542 00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:21,600 Speaker 1: doing this. I've heard this. I've heard this from friends 543 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:25,640 Speaker 1: from very good, brilliant, smart, lovely friends of mine who said, well, 544 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:28,080 Speaker 1: I I wanted to do this project or do this 545 00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:30,240 Speaker 1: with my life, and I can't because I'm bound by 546 00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:33,240 Speaker 1: gin uh. And it's shocking here. But let me ask 547 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:35,560 Speaker 1: you in that experience, what was What was the part 548 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,000 Speaker 1: that was like inexplicable to you? It was just where 549 00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:41,320 Speaker 1: this is coming from. Was there a supernatural element to this? 550 00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 1: You believe it was always strucking in the happiest moments, 551 00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:49,640 Speaker 1: like there are places Ablulah and is happy when he's praying, 552 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:52,600 Speaker 1: when he's with Muslims, when he's with his children, when 553 00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:56,120 Speaker 1: he's eating lamp chop or mumming. Yeah, you like their meats. 554 00:33:56,200 --> 00:34:00,560 Speaker 1: I know those times, Ablulah. I'm type you should be 555 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:04,760 Speaker 1: a little Christmas tree just burst enjoy. It was coming 556 00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:08,360 Speaker 1: in that way. And also it was it was constantly 557 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 1: it was affecting me physically. It never happened to me before. 558 00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:15,600 Speaker 1: I never I was sad many times. I had many 559 00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:19,200 Speaker 1: traumatic experiences. I lived in war zones, but it wasn't 560 00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:22,759 Speaker 1: crippling me physically. This was new in the last couple 561 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:26,280 Speaker 1: of years. Maybe I mean too personal. No, No, I didn't. 562 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:28,120 Speaker 1: I didn't know you were going through this, And I'm 563 00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:32,120 Speaker 1: really sad that I did. I wish I had known earlier. Yeah, 564 00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:34,280 Speaker 1: it was. It was rough a couple of years, and 565 00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:37,239 Speaker 1: and it would just disappear on its own. It was 566 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:40,759 Speaker 1: so intense, sudden, it comes and goes. It hits you 567 00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:45,000 Speaker 1: like a stick. And this disappears usually previous sadness or 568 00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:49,040 Speaker 1: minor depression. It sort of comes gradually, it stays with you. 569 00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 1: There's always some sort of a visible trigger or mental 570 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:55,880 Speaker 1: trigger to that stuff, which was out of the blue. 571 00:34:56,440 --> 00:35:00,279 Speaker 1: And like, I can totally see how subtle a do 572 00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:03,400 Speaker 1: or a say here, a person, a black magic person 573 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:06,279 Speaker 1: can build a whole gin story as a as a 574 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:09,040 Speaker 1: result of this, and why so many things are going 575 00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:13,080 Speaker 1: wrong in Turkey, in America, even American Muslim communities, or 576 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:17,200 Speaker 1: personally to me, that somebody is jealous or envious or 577 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:19,560 Speaker 1: has to put a curse on you put a person 578 00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:23,680 Speaker 1: you and it's it's amazing. I think people should be 579 00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:28,120 Speaker 1: incredibly resilient if they are not being as successful, as 580 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:32,080 Speaker 1: good looking, as charming, as social, as popular as they want, 581 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:36,960 Speaker 1: all of those things right here, right here there. I 582 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:42,239 Speaker 1: think rarely it's because there's somebody who's so jealous that 583 00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:45,400 Speaker 1: his or her way and has the time and energy. 584 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:48,960 Speaker 1: Right yeah, I just don't think so. I've never seen 585 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:52,240 Speaker 1: a physical evidence. Hey, I don't think anybody has that power. 586 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:55,640 Speaker 1: I don't believe anybody can be. Very few people are 587 00:35:55,719 --> 00:36:01,040 Speaker 1: that much entrenched in vengeance and hatred your life, just 588 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:04,080 Speaker 1: trying to ruin your and also Pakistani housewives who might 589 00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:09,280 Speaker 1: disagree like I'm related to them, it's a divorcee couple 590 00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:13,080 Speaker 1: or if uttering husband or something like that. But some 591 00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:17,120 Speaker 1: of the stories like there's this um, there's again the 592 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:20,879 Speaker 1: same student. He was convinced that this Persian jin who 593 00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:24,800 Speaker 1: makes him gay was about a Hindu family in India, 594 00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:28,080 Speaker 1: that this Hindu family knew who he was and just 595 00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:32,480 Speaker 1: was doing this magic with some really anti Semitic judaism 596 00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:35,920 Speaker 1: here and there. If you wait, wait, so there was 597 00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:39,120 Speaker 1: a Hindu family, a Persian gin and anti semitism all 598 00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:42,920 Speaker 1: in the same story used. I think as part of 599 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:46,880 Speaker 1: this program, maybe you should collect some of these stories. 600 00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:51,319 Speaker 1: I would love to and and then people are in it. 601 00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:55,680 Speaker 1: They don't understand how crazy, how irrational, and how stupid 602 00:36:55,760 --> 00:37:00,600 Speaker 1: this is sometimes and maybebe if people here from other resources, 603 00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:05,480 Speaker 1: other people's experiences, like who can't make anybody drink urine? 604 00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:09,840 Speaker 1: I I just don't know. But again, this educated people 605 00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:12,520 Speaker 1: going to one of the best colleges in the in 606 00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:15,520 Speaker 1: the in the world, and he believed that that was 607 00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:19,120 Speaker 1: his desperation, that was his desperation, and that's a whole yeah, yeah, yeah, 608 00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:20,960 Speaker 1: how did he well? I want to know for you 609 00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:23,920 Speaker 1: the experience you went through, which so unexplicable to you. 610 00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:26,799 Speaker 1: You don't believe there's any supernatural element there. How did 611 00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:29,239 Speaker 1: you did it just suddenly go away as quickly as 612 00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:34,680 Speaker 1: it came on? No, because my initial diagnosis was not 613 00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:40,080 Speaker 1: I panicked. My initial diagnosis and my ongoing therapy as 614 00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:41,719 Speaker 1: a chaplain and you have to have a chapter and 615 00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:45,200 Speaker 1: you have to have a person who is also taking 616 00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:48,240 Speaker 1: care of your well being. I think those people also 617 00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:50,480 Speaker 1: were not used to this side of me. This was 618 00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:53,560 Speaker 1: something really unique and new. That's why the jin sort 619 00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:55,880 Speaker 1: of made a lot more sense to my mother. Um, 620 00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:58,239 Speaker 1: it didn't go away. Still, it didn't go away, but 621 00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:00,800 Speaker 1: I think I have a better handle of it now. 622 00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:03,520 Speaker 1: I have a way in which I can go back 623 00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:08,280 Speaker 1: and revisit these over idealized America, over idealized American Islam, 624 00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:13,520 Speaker 1: American Muslim community, or idealized secular democracy in Turkey. It is. 625 00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:16,799 Speaker 1: It is my own sort of recabalt caliber or my 626 00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:20,239 Speaker 1: own expectation and seeing where it really hurts me and 627 00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:24,160 Speaker 1: attending to those hurt and neglect is. But at least 628 00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:26,640 Speaker 1: I can breathe. It's it's not coming as frequent as 629 00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:29,319 Speaker 1: it used to be, and it's not hitting as strong 630 00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:31,960 Speaker 1: as it used to be, but it's an ongoing issue. 631 00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:36,839 Speaker 1: You know. The emotional depression is nothing but an emotional pain, 632 00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:40,720 Speaker 1: like physical pain. You cut yourself and you're that healing. 633 00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:43,000 Speaker 1: If the if the world is so deep, it takes 634 00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:45,160 Speaker 1: a lot of time. Yeah, yeah, it does take a 635 00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:48,239 Speaker 1: lot of time, and sometimes it takes a lifetime. Absolutely, 636 00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:51,160 Speaker 1: there's quickly summarized and recap. My general take on this 637 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:55,240 Speaker 1: gin ghost black magic story. I think these are real 638 00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:58,239 Speaker 1: in the sense that there is a world that our 639 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:03,200 Speaker 1: microscopes and are tell scopes can see and and there 640 00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:05,680 Speaker 1: is the world, and there are creatures and beings that 641 00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:08,720 Speaker 1: God Almighty has created live and function in that world. 642 00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:12,880 Speaker 1: There is a way in which we can learn without 643 00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:15,920 Speaker 1: necessarily having direct access to them, through their manifestation and 644 00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:19,719 Speaker 1: through their stories told in our tradition. And some of 645 00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:23,439 Speaker 1: these stories and realities that we have access to can 646 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:28,600 Speaker 1: shed light into the modern psychology, human soul, our emotional world. 647 00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:31,360 Speaker 1: What makes us who we are and why are we 648 00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:35,600 Speaker 1: so peculiar in certain like why what are we attracted to? What? 649 00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:37,880 Speaker 1: What turns us on? What turns us off? There's so 650 00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:41,480 Speaker 1: much unexplainable aspects of human life and human soul. I 651 00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:46,000 Speaker 1: think that literature through these utilitarian eyes, without believing any 652 00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:51,160 Speaker 1: superstitious superpowers, should be studied in line with modern psychology. 653 00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:54,480 Speaker 1: And so I think there's no question that much of 654 00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:57,239 Speaker 1: our belief around Gin or angels or even God is 655 00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:00,600 Speaker 1: projections of what we think and feel and what we know, 656 00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:03,879 Speaker 1: because that's how our imagination is limited. Right when even 657 00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:06,200 Speaker 1: when we think about these creatures, the supernatural beings we 658 00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:09,480 Speaker 1: would leave in we're limited to the language that we know, 659 00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:13,600 Speaker 1: the emotions that we know, the of abilities, the capabilities 660 00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:16,120 Speaker 1: of powers that we believe could exist or do exist, 661 00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:19,359 Speaker 1: and that's it. And so that's just such. Yeah, so 662 00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:25,759 Speaker 1: that's evidence. And of then neb I am what my 663 00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:29,520 Speaker 1: servant thinks of me? Right, God said, Yeah? Yeah, God, 664 00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:32,800 Speaker 1: is this fire breathing, angry dragon who wants to punish 665 00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:37,920 Speaker 1: people for no reason? Then look effectively the God. The 666 00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:43,040 Speaker 1: energy will be that negative, destructive energy. That's your own projection, projection. 667 00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:45,799 Speaker 1: And I think a lot of the people, or these 668 00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:52,000 Speaker 1: spiritual creatures gain power because of people's perception. Welllthough, I 669 00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:54,319 Speaker 1: will say I'm only slightly disappointed because I was hoping 670 00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:56,200 Speaker 1: you would tell me that you have control over our 671 00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:59,000 Speaker 1: whole tribe of Gin or something. Imagine how many more 672 00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:01,520 Speaker 1: problems we could all Right, thank you so much again 673 00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:04,280 Speaker 1: of the I love seeing you, love you, love your family, 674 00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:11,799 Speaker 1: and uh, you know, stay safe and stay happy. I 675 00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:15,719 Speaker 1: hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did. Now, 676 00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:18,000 Speaker 1: there are as many people in the world with Jin 677 00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:21,200 Speaker 1: stories as there are Gin, So if you have one 678 00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:23,319 Speaker 1: you'd like to share, make sure to email it to 679 00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:27,320 Speaker 1: me at the Hidden Gin at gmail dot com. That's 680 00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:30,200 Speaker 1: the Hidden Gin. Th H e H I D D 681 00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:34,600 Speaker 1: E N d J I n N at gmail dot com. 682 00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:46,719 Speaker 1: And until next time, remember we are not alone. The 683 00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:49,640 Speaker 1: Hidden Gin is a production of I Heart Radio and 684 00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:53,400 Speaker 1: Grimm and Mild from Aaron Minkey. The podcast is written 685 00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:57,080 Speaker 1: and hosted by Robbia Chaudry and produced by Miranda Hawkins 686 00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:01,920 Speaker 1: and Trevor Young, with executive producers Aaron Mankey, Alex Williams, 687 00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:06,320 Speaker 1: and Matt Frederick. Our theme song was created by Patrick Quartetz. 688 00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:10,080 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit the I 689 00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:14,640 Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.