1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:06,800 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 2: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My 3 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 2: name is Robert Lamb. 4 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:18,120 Speaker 3: And I am Joe McCormick, and we're back with part 5 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 3: three of our series on cave biology and cave environments. 6 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:25,799 Speaker 3: Let's see what did we talk about in the last 7 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:28,040 Speaker 3: two episodes of the series. Obviously, if you haven't listened 8 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:30,320 Speaker 3: to those already, maybe you should go back and check 9 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:33,199 Speaker 3: those out first, But if you'd rather just jump in here, 10 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:36,600 Speaker 3: that's okay too. In the previous parts, we talked about 11 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:40,919 Speaker 3: some of the common characteristics of cave environments and especially 12 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:45,519 Speaker 3: in ways that would affect animal life. We talked about 13 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 3: the presence of guano in some caves, bat dropping guano 14 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:52,040 Speaker 3: as sort of the base of a food chain, the 15 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 3: equivalent of sunlight to the outside world to the inside 16 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 3: of the cave. And we also talked about some specific 17 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 3: cave organism, such as the blind Mexican cavefish, about which 18 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 3: there has been a lot of research research on how 19 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:10,480 Speaker 3: exactly these fish evolve. These various populations of fish in 20 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:15,040 Speaker 3: northeastern Mexican caves evolved to lose their sight and lose 21 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 3: the pigment in their flesh and so forth. Why that 22 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:21,960 Speaker 3: evolutionary pathway takes place in the cave environment and so forth. 23 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:27,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, so we're so we've established to a degree, the 24 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:31,600 Speaker 2: cave environment, the cave ecosystem. We've talked about characteristics, We've 25 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 2: talked about some individual species, and we're going to kind 26 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:36,399 Speaker 2: of continue that trend here. We're going to talk about 27 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 2: some more specific organisms that make their homes in the 28 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:46,320 Speaker 2: cave environment, or we're going to look at creatures that 29 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 2: dip into that ecosystem, dip into that biomass that is 30 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 2: already living in the cave. 31 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 3: All right, well, I think I'm going to kick things 32 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 3: off today with a full cave entry. 33 00:01:57,800 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 2: All right, let's do it. 34 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 3: No, no halfway on this one. 35 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 2: An obligate cave dweller. 36 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 3: Right, So, according to one source I was reading, actually 37 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:09,960 Speaker 3: this has been claimed as the first animal to be 38 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 3: recognized as permanently adapted to a cave environment. I couldn't 39 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:17,080 Speaker 3: verify that priority, but that's the claim at least, so 40 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 3: that may be true. This animal is an aquatic cave 41 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:27,680 Speaker 3: salamander called the oulm, also known as the proteus scientific 42 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 3: name Proteus. I think you would say Anguinus proteus a 43 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 3: n g ui in us. The oulm occupies underground waterways 44 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 3: in Europe, especially Kars caves of the Dynaric Mountains, which 45 00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:48,000 Speaker 3: is the region of the Balkans along the eastern coast 46 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 3: of the Adriatic Sea, so you can think east of Italy, 47 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:54,960 Speaker 3: across the Adriatic from Italy. And I was looking around 48 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 3: for some good sources on the history of human knowledge 49 00:02:57,560 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 3: of this animal, because I know the first writings about 50 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 3: it were very interesting. And I came across a paper 51 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 3: in the Journal of Cave and Karst Studies from twenty 52 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:11,519 Speaker 3: twenty one by Evo Lucik called an underworld tailored to tourists, 53 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 3: a dragon, a photomodel, and a bioindicator. And Lucik does 54 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 3: an interesting thing in this article. It's not really focused 55 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:22,240 Speaker 3: on biology. Instead, he's sort of focused on the history 56 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:26,680 Speaker 3: of how this animal has been perceived and categorized by 57 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 3: the media and the public. So the earliest writings about 58 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 3: the ulm are sort of famous. There is an account 59 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 3: in the writing of a seventeenth century author and natural 60 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 3: historian named Johann Weikard von valvasor VLVASR. Valvasor, who was 61 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 3: from the region then known as Carneola what is today Slovenia, 62 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 3: and Valvasor famously published a sort of encyclopedia of the 63 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 3: region known as The Glory of the Duchy of Carniola, 64 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:01,720 Speaker 3: and because of the sting geology of this region with 65 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 3: the kars the caves, the work did contain some investigations 66 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 3: of the local its caves, its associated culture and life. 67 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 3: So Here, summarizing Valvasor, Lucik says that around sixteen eighty nine, 68 00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:20,640 Speaker 3: Valvasour reported that he had heard stories from peasants in 69 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:25,240 Speaker 3: a region known as the Vernica that they had seen 70 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:29,479 Speaker 3: a baby dragon in the local water source known as 71 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 3: the Bayliss Spring, and the people who knew this spring 72 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 3: said that the water would flow from it reliably twice 73 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 3: a day, once around midnight and once again around nine am, 74 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:43,039 Speaker 3: and this apparently was linked to some kind of belief 75 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:48,159 Speaker 3: in an underground dragon, which, when it became angry, would 76 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:51,039 Speaker 3: spit out water and perhaps one of its own young 77 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:54,279 Speaker 3: One of the peasants that Valvasore spoke to said he 78 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:57,480 Speaker 3: had seen three young dragons spit up in this way 79 00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 3: by the spring, and a local male care claimed that 80 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:03,600 Speaker 3: at one point he took one of the baby dragons 81 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 3: home with him and it was about as big as 82 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:07,719 Speaker 3: his hand and looked like a lizard. 83 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:11,159 Speaker 2: And it does sort of look like a lizard, but 84 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 2: I would say a little bit lizard, a little bit 85 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 2: vampire princess, a little bit just you know, it depends 86 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 2: what the lightings like. But yeah, it's this long, slender 87 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:27,919 Speaker 2: organism with this elongated head and these wonderfully dainty little limbs. 88 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, so it is a salamanderin form. It has a 89 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:35,680 Speaker 3: kind of flat, almost elongated I was gonna say shovel 90 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:37,840 Speaker 3: shaped head, but it's not really shovel shaped. It's more 91 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:40,560 Speaker 3: kind of if you look down from above, the head 92 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 3: is sort of crocodile head shaped. But yeah, it is 93 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 3: a kind of flat head. It has frilly red gills 94 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 3: extending out from the base of its head around its neck. 95 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 3: It has yeah, as you say, delicate little limbs that 96 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:56,160 Speaker 3: don't look like you know, they would do a whole lot, 97 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 3: but it can use them. And otherwise the body is 98 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:04,800 Speaker 3: like a long kind of white snake. It is a translucent, white, 99 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:09,440 Speaker 3: fleshy skin going in the snakelike shape. I've heard some 100 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 3: authors say that if you look at it closely, you 101 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:15,359 Speaker 3: can actually sort of see its organs through its skin 102 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 3: that like the light can sort of penetrate it, and 103 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 3: you can see its insides. And you can look up 104 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:24,120 Speaker 3: pictures of the ulm online. They're they're pretty readily accessible. 105 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:27,720 Speaker 3: It's it's a creepy looking organism. I mean, it does 106 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 3: in some of these photos it almost seems to kind 107 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 3: of glow because I guess of the maybe low light 108 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:37,480 Speaker 3: conditions in which it is being photographed, and its very 109 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 3: pale skin is like reflecting a lot of light. 110 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I guess, kind of creepy, but also 111 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:47,159 Speaker 2: just haunting, almost kind of elfin in its in its appearance, 112 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:49,360 Speaker 2: you know, like this is a being from another world 113 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 2: and it's its body and form, it's is entirely alien 114 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 2: to us. 115 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 3: And it's funny. So the rest of this paper by 116 00:06:56,640 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 3: Lucik really emphasizes the to which sort of mythological themes 117 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:06,480 Speaker 3: have permeated the public understanding of this creature and are 118 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 3: even in some ways still prevalent because of the ways 119 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 3: that this creature is marketed by the local cave systems 120 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 3: as a tourist attraction, and those that marketing places a 121 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 3: lot of emphasis on mythological themes, like referring to it 122 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 3: as a dragon. However, of course, over the following generations 123 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 3: after valvasor, a scientific view of this creature began to 124 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:34,679 Speaker 3: take shape. That it was not a dragon, of course, 125 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 3: but an amphibian, an amphibian that lived in waterways underneath 126 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 3: the earth, which could explain why specimens were sometimes disgorged 127 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 3: from a spring or cave opening after heavy rains. And 128 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 3: so I wanted to get a scientific perspective on this creature, 129 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 3: and I dug up a paper that I thought was interesting. 130 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 3: This was a paper published in the Journal of Zoology 131 00:07:56,400 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 3: in twenty twenty by belaws, l, Warn and Hurts called 132 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 3: extreme site fidelity of the oulm Proteus anguinus revealed by 133 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 3: a long term capture mark recapture study. So I'm going 134 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 3: to try to do a bit of a recap of 135 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 3: what this paper does in reviewing some of the main 136 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 3: biological characteristics of this animal and then discuss the findings 137 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 3: of their specific experiment. One thing they do, and this 138 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 3: is important to do, I think in the episodes of 139 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 3: this series is they remind us about the common characteristics 140 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 3: of cave habitats. There can be some variation between different caves, 141 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:36,079 Speaker 3: but cave ecosystems are usually going to be shaped by 142 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 3: a reduction or total absence of light that changes a 143 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 3: lot about how organisms survive food scarcity. This is common 144 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 3: to a lot of caves because, as you might recall 145 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 3: other organisms we talked about, like the blind Mexican cavefish, 146 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:54,720 Speaker 3: seem to have adapted to their environment by having lower 147 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 3: nutritional or energy needs than their surface surface variant cousins. 148 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 3: That they need less food to survive, and they have 149 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:05,959 Speaker 3: to adapt to be this way because there's less food 150 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 3: in a cave. Another thing the authors identify is what 151 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:12,720 Speaker 3: they call simplified communities. I looked this up to make 152 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 3: sure I was understanding it right, so I found one 153 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 3: other paper discussing this concept in the journal Bioscience, and 154 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:22,560 Speaker 3: according to their definition, simplification seems to be a quote 155 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 3: reduction in niche diversity. So I think that means you know, 156 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:30,199 Speaker 3: fewer ways for organisms to specialize, which kind of makes 157 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 3: sense within a cave. And then finally they mention that 158 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:37,080 Speaker 3: the cave environments are usually shaped by the fact that 159 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 3: there the cave environment is a major buffer against changes 160 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 3: in climate and other environmental variations. So living in a 161 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 3: deep cave largely removes the variation of things like the 162 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 3: night day cycle, seasonal changes to weather, and so forth. 163 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 3: So a cave environment, though some changes can still come. 164 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 3: And obviously if you're living in an under ground waterway, 165 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 3: like changes in water flow are possible, like heavy rains 166 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 3: could still cause you know, increasing currents in the in 167 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 3: the waterway and so forth. But there are going to 168 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:16,680 Speaker 3: be fewer cyclical, seasonal day, night, and other environmental changes 169 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 3: in a cave than there are outside. 170 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:20,720 Speaker 2: You mean, of course, you also might want to throw 171 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:25,319 Speaker 2: in seasonal habitation by certain organisms such as bats or 172 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:30,680 Speaker 2: historically things like a cave bear. But even then, the 173 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:34,199 Speaker 2: deeper into the cave you get, you could potentially be 174 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 2: even further removed from the influence of sad. 175 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:40,920 Speaker 3: Organisms, right, And so the authors say, as several authors 176 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 3: we've looked at have mentioned this, that the evolutionary ecology 177 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:46,560 Speaker 3: of caves is kind of hard to study for maybe 178 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 3: obvious reasons, like aquatic caves especially are kind of hard 179 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:55,680 Speaker 3: to access, they require difficult diving and so forth. And 180 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 3: they say that in the continent of Europe, vertebrates that 181 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:02,840 Speaker 3: are fully adapted to cave life are actually somewhat rare. 182 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 3: There are more species that might go in and out 183 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 3: of caves, but the ones that are the full on troglobions, 184 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 3: the fully adapted to cave organisms that there are not 185 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:14,720 Speaker 3: a whole lot of those. But one of the best 186 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 3: known exceptions is the ome. It is not only a 187 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 3: fully cave adapted organism, it is the largest cave dwelling 188 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 3: vertebrate on Earth. The authors cite a couple of studies 189 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:32,319 Speaker 3: from boulog in nineteen ninety four and Tronte in two 190 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:35,840 Speaker 3: thousand and seven to suggest that the ancestors of the 191 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:39,720 Speaker 3: OLM probably colonized caves somewhere between eight point eight and 192 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 3: twenty million years ago. All known populations except for one, 193 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 3: have regressed eyes and lack pigment in their bodies, so 194 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:53,960 Speaker 3: they appear eyeless and pale or translucent. The one accepted 195 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:58,320 Speaker 3: population is in a cave system in southeast Slovenia. 196 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:01,560 Speaker 2: There's one called the black Ole. I remember running across, 197 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 2: and it stuck with me because that sounds like such 198 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:08,680 Speaker 2: a like a death metal home in your European caverns. 199 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:11,840 Speaker 3: But apparently just the difference is for some reason, this 200 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 3: is the one population that has retained its pigment within 201 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:19,959 Speaker 3: the caves. They are top predators, which is kind of 202 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:21,680 Speaker 3: funny because when you look at them, they don't look 203 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:25,560 Speaker 3: like top predators. They look kind of unassuming, maybe creepy, 204 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:28,439 Speaker 3: but you know, they don't look scary. If that distinction 205 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:29,040 Speaker 3: makes sense. 206 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess it comes down to again, how scary 207 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:35,440 Speaker 2: do you have to be in order to be the 208 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 2: top predator in a cave ecosystem where again, you have 209 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 2: you do have food chain, you do have a certain 210 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:45,840 Speaker 2: amount of biomass available, but it is it is, it's 211 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 2: all nache. It's reduced, so you're not going to have 212 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 2: these enormous organisms. You know, everything's going to be on 213 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:56,160 Speaker 2: a smaller, hungrier, and more versatile scale. 214 00:12:56,520 --> 00:12:59,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, totally. And to be clear, I mean I'm not 215 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 3: saying I actually think scariness is a biological indicator of 216 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 3: whether you're a top predator or not. But you know, 217 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:08,520 Speaker 3: it's just the intuitions they don't seem to match. But 218 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 3: they are the top predator in their cave environments. They 219 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:15,440 Speaker 3: prey on small animals like cave shrimp, snails, little insects, 220 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:18,560 Speaker 3: and they have no natural predators of their own, so 221 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:21,679 Speaker 3: there's nothing they have to normally watch out for preying 222 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:25,200 Speaker 3: on them. They're the top of the pyramid because they 223 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:27,320 Speaker 3: have no predators. There's a part later in this paper 224 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 3: where the authors observe that the olm do not seem 225 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 3: to engage in hiding behaviors that they observed. At least 226 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:38,560 Speaker 3: they said, it's possible that some olms are like hide 227 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 3: back in cracks and crevices that they were never able 228 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:43,560 Speaker 3: to access on their dives, so you know, they couldn't 229 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 3: locate them back there. But the ones they saw float 230 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 3: out in the open, maintaining their place within the current 231 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 3: of the cave waterway, Like you know, they're just not 232 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:55,600 Speaker 3: worried about that. They don't have to go hide. Now, 233 00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:58,560 Speaker 3: another way in which our naive intuitions about what it 234 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 3: means to be a top predator and be violated. You 235 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 3: might hear top predator and you think voracious appetite. You know, 236 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 3: they're eating a lot, eating everything around them. No, Actually, 237 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:14,240 Speaker 3: the ole is famous for having an incredibly incredibly elastic 238 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 3: energy needs, Like it can survive years apparently without food 239 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:22,480 Speaker 3: and can avoid starvation, so it can go into very 240 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 3: low energy mode, can maintain a low metabolism and can 241 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 3: go for a long time without food. 242 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, because again the reduced availability of prey and 243 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 2: a given environment, you need to be able to really 244 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 2: stretch out those the spaces between meal times. 245 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 3: It's noted that they are neotonic, meaning they retain juvenile 246 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 3: features into adulthood, and there's some other salamander species that 247 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:50,040 Speaker 3: do this as well. They can tolerate water with very 248 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:54,360 Speaker 3: little dissolved oxygen in it, so they have low food 249 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 3: energy needs and low oxygen needs. And while they are 250 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 3: blind to light, they do have a number of compensating 251 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 3: sense mechanisms. The authors mention one of them is what's 252 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 3: known as raeotaxis. Raeotaxis is the ability to sense the 253 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 3: direction of flow within the water, and then that's also 254 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:19,520 Speaker 3: paired with a behavioral instinct that causes the salamander to 255 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 3: turn to orient its body facing into the water flow, 256 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 3: and this is a common way for fish and other 257 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 3: aquatic organisms to remain stationary rather than drifting away with 258 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 3: water currents. They also use other senses than site. They 259 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 3: have underwater hearing, they use their sense of smell or oldfaction, 260 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 3: and they appear to have a magnetic sensoryability as well, 261 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 3: which may help them orient with respect to Earth's magnetic field, 262 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:52,480 Speaker 3: possibly useful for orientation and navigation. As I said, the 263 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 3: ulm has very restricted food needs like some other troglobiants 264 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 3: we've discussed. You remember the blind Mexican cave fish had 265 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:02,880 Speaker 3: very low food needs compared to its surface variant cousin. 266 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:08,200 Speaker 3: They have what the authors call extreme life history adaptations, 267 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 3: meaning their life just appears to sort of sort of 268 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 3: go in slow motion compared to salamanders you might find 269 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 3: on the surface. So I was looking up the maximum 270 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 3: life span of surface amphibians, and of course that varies, 271 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:23,960 Speaker 3: but you know, on average it's going to be more 272 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 3: in the range of ten to twenty years. For large 273 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 3: amphibians that live on the surface. The olem is thought 274 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 3: to live for one hundred years or more, with females 275 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 3: only reproducing once every twelve and a half years roughly. 276 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 3: So that is incredibly long life for an amphibian, incredibly 277 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 3: long in between mating and reproduction. So this experiment tried 278 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 3: to study the behavior of the olm, especially the movement 279 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 3: and migratory patterns of the olm, by using a capture 280 00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 3: mark and recapture method. So you know, they catch one, 281 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 3: they mark it, and then they would come back and 282 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:04,440 Speaker 3: see if they could capture the same ones again later, 283 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 3: note where they were relative to the original capture and 284 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 3: so forth. Specifically, they were studying an eastern Herzegovinian population 285 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 3: and the authors found what they called extreme site fidelity. 286 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:22,960 Speaker 3: Most of the creatures that they captured had barely moved 287 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:26,399 Speaker 3: since the years before. The average distance was about five 288 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:30,919 Speaker 3: meters from the original capture location a year before. And 289 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 3: they also did multiple interval studies, so like capturing them 290 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:36,679 Speaker 3: at different times and then checking up on them again. 291 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 3: They found that moving distance was not correlated with the 292 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 3: time since capture. So for a lot of species, you 293 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 3: might expect that the longer you go in between captures, 294 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:52,560 Speaker 3: the farther away from their original location they might have moved. 295 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 3: In these salamanders, not the case. The longer you go 296 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:58,400 Speaker 3: in between captures, it does not, on average effect how 297 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:00,920 Speaker 3: far away they are from the first time. So the 298 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:05,560 Speaker 3: question is why do they move so little? There could 299 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:08,120 Speaker 3: be a number of answers here, and the authors say 300 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:12,320 Speaker 3: to be fair extreme site fidelity, the extreme site fidelity 301 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 3: of these salamanders is not necessarily extreme among amphibians. There 302 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 3: are also some surface amphibians that may have very limited 303 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:25,000 Speaker 3: movement ranges. The authors could not find any reason based 304 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:28,320 Speaker 3: on the environment itself that would limit movement. In other words, 305 00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 3: there were no gaps in the movement patterns that would 306 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 3: indicate environmental features they were trying to avoid, And so 307 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:39,679 Speaker 3: they say their best guess is that this hyper sedentary 308 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 3: lifestyle is probably related to energy constraints. The author's right quote. 309 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:48,200 Speaker 3: We can only speculate that animals feeding on a very 310 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:54,400 Speaker 3: low food supply and as consequence, resistant to starvation, reproducing sporadically. Again, 311 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:57,560 Speaker 3: females reproducing on average only once in twelve point five 312 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 3: years and living for a cinch, are very energy cautious 313 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 3: and limit their movements to the minimum. It's a different 314 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:08,399 Speaker 3: kind of animal life to imagine, isn't it like an 315 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 3: animal that to be clear, it's not incapable of moving quickly, 316 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:15,680 Speaker 3: like if you try to capture one and it has 317 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:19,280 Speaker 3: to perform an evasive maneuver, essentially like it's trying to 318 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:22,040 Speaker 3: get away from you. They can move quickly. It just 319 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:27,400 Speaker 3: seems like undisturbed in their natural environment. If you use 320 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:30,640 Speaker 3: the capture recapture method, they haven't moved much after a year, 321 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 3: after two years and so on. 322 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:33,520 Speaker 2: Wow. 323 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:36,080 Speaker 3: The author is also note I thought this was interesting 324 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 3: that I don't know exactly what to make of it, 325 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 3: but they say that they have never seen a dead individual. 326 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 3: Kind of interesting. 327 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:46,840 Speaker 2: H Yeah. I mean, obviously we're dealing with creatures that are, 328 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 2: like we said, difficult to observe anyway, and you know, 329 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:54,879 Speaker 2: we can't count out various other organisms that then scavenge 330 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:57,160 Speaker 2: a dead one. We also have to take into account, 331 00:19:57,200 --> 00:19:58,959 Speaker 2: you know, the movements of the waters that have at 332 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:02,879 Speaker 2: least historically been attributed to ones occasionally washing out and 333 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:06,840 Speaker 2: so forth. And even if one didn't wash out all 334 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:09,080 Speaker 2: the way to where humans could have observed them, it 335 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:12,960 Speaker 2: might wash them out to where other organisms would have 336 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:17,240 Speaker 2: a shot at scavenging them. But still it's an interesting tidbit. 337 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah. To be clear, I don't think they 338 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:23,200 Speaker 3: meant like humans have never observed a dead one obviously. 339 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 3: I think they mean like in the in the region 340 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:27,800 Speaker 3: where they're looking at the live ones, they've never seen 341 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 3: a dead one there, right right, yeah. 342 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:31,199 Speaker 2: Yeah, And like I said, that could be because it 343 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 2: is they do get periodically fleshed out, I'm guessing, or yeah, 344 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 2: scavengers of one sort or another. 345 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 3: The author is add a conservation note in their paper, 346 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:43,119 Speaker 3: which is that the extreme site fidelity of the of 347 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 3: the olm makes it quite vulnerable to water pollution. You know, 348 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:49,960 Speaker 3: it changes to water quality, especially like if it can't 349 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:52,639 Speaker 3: I think, if it can't really migrate very effectively to 350 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:55,000 Speaker 3: get to a place where there's better water, it's more 351 00:20:55,119 --> 00:21:01,359 Speaker 3: vulnerable to changes in water quality locally. Though. Vulnerability to 352 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:04,720 Speaker 3: water pollution I think is also true of many surface amphibians, 353 00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 3: who are especially vulnerable because of the permeability of their skin. 354 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 3: So yeah, another reason why, I mean, not like we 355 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:14,520 Speaker 3: needed that. Many more reasons why water pollution is a 356 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 3: bad thing. But here's another one. But final note, if 357 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 3: you haven't seen a picture of the ulm, you should 358 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:22,320 Speaker 3: look this one up. You want to see this flesh. 359 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, absolutely, it's a very it's. 360 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:26,200 Speaker 3: A very Cronenberg biodesign. 361 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:30,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, they're like I say, they're a little creepy, a 362 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 2: little cute. They're very unique. All right. I want to 363 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:48,200 Speaker 2: get into a topic here that that came up early 364 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:50,359 Speaker 2: on in my research and a paper that came up 365 00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:53,200 Speaker 2: pretty early on in researching these episodes, and it has 366 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 2: to do with intra gilled predation, that's the killing and 367 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:02,120 Speaker 2: eating of potential competitors with any ecosystem, which is apparently 368 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:04,639 Speaker 2: a pretty big deal in the food chain of the 369 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:08,560 Speaker 2: Hypogean world. So, as we discussed in previous episodes and 370 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 2: specifically in the last episode, you know, bat guano is 371 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 2: kind of an alternative sunlight that forms sort of the 372 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:17,159 Speaker 2: base of the subterrane and ecosystem a lot of the 373 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 2: times as bats roost in the cave and defecate, thus 374 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:23,359 Speaker 2: bringing new resources for various organisms to feed on, which 375 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:27,680 Speaker 2: in turn feed other consumers. And as discussed in a 376 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:31,679 Speaker 2: twenty twenty one paper published in Scientific Reports by param 377 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:34,920 Speaker 2: Mutchova at all quote the food web in a subterranean 378 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:39,240 Speaker 2: ecosystem is driven by introgild predation. So in this paper 379 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:42,160 Speaker 2: they drive home some of what we discussed last time 380 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:46,719 Speaker 2: that quote, detrit us based food webs are prevalent in 381 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:50,160 Speaker 2: cave systems. Though you do have cases where again sunlight 382 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:55,040 Speaker 2: enters cavern openings or through other fissures, and also have 383 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 2: situations where some manner of chemo autotrophy is taking place, 384 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 2: but still, you know, it often falls to back guano 385 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 2: as well as other transportation networks for dead plants, and 386 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:11,720 Speaker 2: to try it as such as the gravitation pawn or streams. 387 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:16,879 Speaker 2: It's like a like a steep sinkhole situation percolating water. 388 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:21,359 Speaker 2: And also animal cadavers, the animal cadaver being something that is, 389 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:23,400 Speaker 2: you know, the animal has gone in there and died 390 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 2: or something has brought the animal couldaver into the cave generally. 391 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:30,199 Speaker 3: So that's a good list. So, as you said, there 392 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:33,440 Speaker 3: are places where the sunlight it's in chemo autotrophy would 393 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:37,120 Speaker 3: be an alternative to photo autotrophy. You know, mostly we're 394 00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 3: on the on the surface. The autotrophs are making energy 395 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 3: out of sunlight, but it can also be done with 396 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:47,640 Speaker 3: certain types of chemicals in the darkness. And then as 397 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 3: you said, back guano, and then just basically various ways 398 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 3: for stuff to fall into the cave or be brought 399 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:54,960 Speaker 3: into the cave that could. 400 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:58,480 Speaker 2: Be eaten, Yeah, falling in and potentially flowing in in 401 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:00,960 Speaker 2: the same way that a dead own might flow out 402 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 2: of a cave, if we're to take that earlier account 403 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 2: at face value. So anyway, that's the base, and you 404 00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:11,439 Speaker 2: have all of these consumer interactions atop of all that. 405 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 2: In a cave, and this particular study examined the subterranean 406 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 2: ecosystem of the Autovaska Cave in Slovakia. The predators they 407 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:25,119 Speaker 2: examined were all arthropods living in the cave, including a 408 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:28,680 Speaker 2: species of might a beetle, two different spiders, and a 409 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:32,399 Speaker 2: couple of other species, and they were able to examine 410 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:35,359 Speaker 2: DNA in the guts of each species to see what 411 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:39,880 Speaker 2: they were eating. As expected, they found a complex system 412 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:43,680 Speaker 2: of intragil predation again killing and eating of potential competitors. 413 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:46,920 Speaker 2: And they included a handy visual guide that I really liked, 414 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 2: so I included it here for you to look at, Joe. 415 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:55,879 Speaker 2: They have essentially five dots scored here on the illustration, 416 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 2: each one representing one of these five species they looked at. 417 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,560 Speaker 2: In each one is color coded with color coded lines 418 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:06,679 Speaker 2: indicating which one feeds on which, and you end up 419 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:10,480 Speaker 2: with this complex almost pretty much a star pattern, but 420 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:14,720 Speaker 2: with a few more lines on some connections, and sometimes 421 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:17,240 Speaker 2: there's not a line connecting one species to another. 422 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 3: It looks like almost all of them are eating each other. 423 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 3: There's one that's really eating everybody and almost and all 424 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:28,159 Speaker 3: the others are eating at least two other ones. 425 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:32,399 Speaker 2: Right, right, And then you know they acknowledge their limitations 426 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:34,080 Speaker 2: and their study and so forth, so it's not this 427 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:37,880 Speaker 2: is not necessarily all that ever happens between these these species, 428 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:40,919 Speaker 2: but this is what they're they're got syndicated when they 429 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:46,479 Speaker 2: were studied, and so they stress that intragil predation is 430 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 2: often important in nitrogen poor diets, as is cannibalism, which 431 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 2: that which they found evidence of, and it should be 432 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:58,680 Speaker 2: stressed that scavenging may be part of both cases. So 433 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:01,000 Speaker 2: you know, on one hand, you have like straight up 434 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:03,720 Speaker 2: predation like well there's my competitor, I've got the drop 435 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,280 Speaker 2: on them. I shall eat them, but also a situation 436 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:08,879 Speaker 2: of well there is my competitor, they have died. 437 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:14,200 Speaker 3: What you're going to do, right, yeah, because often in 438 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 3: energy relationships like this, trying to prey on a healthy 439 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:24,080 Speaker 3: adult of like a of a competitor within the food 440 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:26,640 Speaker 3: chain is usually going to be kind of dangerous. So 441 00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:30,919 Speaker 3: I think we've read about integuild predation before, some of 442 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,920 Speaker 3: it being not predation but scavenging, but other ones being 443 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,399 Speaker 3: like adults of one species preying on the young of 444 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:37,800 Speaker 3: the other. 445 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, because you know, otherwise going toe to toe with 446 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 2: someone or something in the ecosystem that is your equal, Like, 447 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:51,439 Speaker 2: that's that's a gamble, and survival is on the line 448 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:54,680 Speaker 2: regardless if you engage in that struggle, And you might 449 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:58,080 Speaker 2: only engage in that struggle if survival is already on 450 00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:01,840 Speaker 2: the line. And yeah, in the impoverished food web of 451 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:03,600 Speaker 2: the dark, you get what you get. You don't pitch 452 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:07,080 Speaker 2: a fit. Each of the species here that they looked 453 00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 2: at consumed a wide variety of prey and indulged in 454 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:15,879 Speaker 2: integral predation as presumably necessary. So it would seem, based 455 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:17,760 Speaker 2: on what I was reading here that Yeah, while you know, 456 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:21,280 Speaker 2: integral predation of course, as you said, occurs in the 457 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:24,240 Speaker 2: sunlit world as well, and in the oceans and so forth, 458 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:29,639 Speaker 2: within the cave environment, it might be more pronounced again 459 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:34,280 Speaker 2: due to the limited scope of the available biomass, available 460 00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:35,720 Speaker 2: nutrients and so forth. 461 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:37,359 Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, I mean, the fact that it's a place 462 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:41,960 Speaker 3: where food is scarce creates weird biological incentives and emphasies. 463 00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:45,720 Speaker 2: Yeah. So yeah, I thought this was very interesting. But 464 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:49,359 Speaker 2: I want to get into this other area here for 465 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:52,480 Speaker 2: the remainder of the episode here having to do with 466 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:55,919 Speaker 2: outsiders in the cave, creatures who have come into the 467 00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 2: cave to take advantage of what is there. Because once again, 468 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:01,800 Speaker 2: and there's the there, the there's the idea that the 469 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:05,320 Speaker 2: cave environment comes with pros and cons. One con as 470 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,440 Speaker 2: we as we've discussed already, is that the food chain 471 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:13,720 Speaker 2: here is just less robust, uh specialized, obligate. Cave organisms 472 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 2: generally have carved out a very narrow niche in which 473 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,280 Speaker 2: to live. A big pro, however, is, as with the OLM, 474 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:24,399 Speaker 2: you're often dealing with fewer predators and a more secluded life. 475 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:25,280 Speaker 3: Mm hmm. 476 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 2: It's like the Phantom of the Opera. You know, you 477 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,919 Speaker 2: have this vast catacomb empire over which to rule and 478 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,119 Speaker 2: row your boat around, and you have great acoustics, you know, 479 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:37,359 Speaker 2: for your singing, for your your your cool pipe organ. 480 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:41,560 Speaker 2: But the real music scene is upstairs in the sunlit world, 481 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:43,800 Speaker 2: and you are, you know, to a large extent cut 482 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:44,320 Speaker 2: off from that. 483 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:47,160 Speaker 3: You really need to kidnap a singer from up there 484 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:51,320 Speaker 3: to to make your make your songs work better down there. Yeah. 485 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, So there there is a potential advantage here for 486 00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:59,080 Speaker 2: creatures of both worlds and creatures of the surface that 487 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 2: have figured out how and when to venture into caves 488 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 2: to take advantage of the creatures that live there, at 489 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 2: least live there periodically. And you know, I don't think 490 00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 2: we've run across anything that's going in to harvest the olms. 491 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,240 Speaker 2: But as we've been discussing one of the most abundant 492 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 2: life forms you might pray or scavenge upon the in 493 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:26,360 Speaker 2: caverns are creatures that spend part of their time there 494 00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:30,440 Speaker 2: as well. That being bats, they roost in great numbers. 495 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 2: They enjoy a great deal of security there. But a 496 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:36,760 Speaker 2: specialist could get in there and reap the bounties. 497 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 3: Oh, I don't know if I ever thought about that. 498 00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 3: So what would do that? 499 00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:45,000 Speaker 2: Well, a number of organisms. Actually, I was looking at 500 00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:47,520 Speaker 2: a paper from nineteen seventy two. This is by Winkler 501 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:52,920 Speaker 2: and Atoms titled utilization of Southwestern Bat Caves by Terrestrial Carnivores, 502 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:54,760 Speaker 2: and this is published in the Journal of the American 503 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:58,320 Speaker 2: Middland Naturalist. And they put out that various predators venture 504 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 2: into caves to enjoy the occasional bat feast, either via 505 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:07,600 Speaker 2: active hunting or by scavenging for fallen bats. And this 506 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:14,320 Speaker 2: includes broadly like various reptiles, raptorial birds, and mammals. For instance, 507 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:18,880 Speaker 2: they point out that at Bracken Cave, raccoons and some 508 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:21,800 Speaker 2: skunks were observed to venture into the cave to prey 509 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:25,440 Speaker 2: on fallen bats at the cave mouth. Because you know, 510 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 2: I think we discussed this at least in passing earlier. 511 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:33,280 Speaker 2: You have large populations of bats residing in many of 512 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 2: these caves, and occasionally bats do fall be they you know, 513 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:42,200 Speaker 2: young bats, older bats, in firm bats, et cetera. They're 514 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,400 Speaker 2: just too many of them this for this not to happen. 515 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,440 Speaker 2: It will occasionally rain a little bit of food in 516 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 2: the form of a bat, and an organism that is 517 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:54,800 Speaker 2: operated into tunistic enough can get in there and collect 518 00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:57,320 Speaker 2: those and eat them, or you know, eat them before 519 00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 2: they're able to crawl across the cave floor and then 520 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,240 Speaker 2: back up the walls to enjoy their roost again. 521 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:08,280 Speaker 3: So the cave buffet underneath the bat roost is mostly guano, 522 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:10,480 Speaker 3: but occasionally bat meat as well. 523 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:15,760 Speaker 2: That's right. So ringtail cats were observed at another cave, 524 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:19,120 Speaker 2: but it seemed as if, especially at Bracken Cave, raccoons 525 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:21,680 Speaker 2: were the most likely to take advantage of the bat 526 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:25,480 Speaker 2: bounty during both the day and the night. And in 527 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:30,560 Speaker 2: you know, this this makes sense concerning the raccoon, because, 528 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:32,640 Speaker 2: as we've talked about in the show before, you know, 529 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:38,600 Speaker 2: they're they're great opportunists. Uh, they are. They're nocturnal omnivores, 530 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 2: and they have exceedingly wise pause. 531 00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:44,840 Speaker 3: Oh that's right. I'm just now recalling that we did 532 00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:47,600 Speaker 3: an episode a while back about their apparent their strange 533 00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:50,960 Speaker 3: apparent washing of food behavior and the question about like 534 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,400 Speaker 3: whether that really is washing or some other type of 535 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:57,240 Speaker 3: behavioral instinct. And oh, I can't remember off the top 536 00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:58,760 Speaker 3: of my head what episode that was in, but I 537 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:01,480 Speaker 3: remember that that that one really got my mind going. 538 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember talking about like, for instance, they are 539 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:08,040 Speaker 2: they are they're great opportunistic organisms that can adapt to 540 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:10,960 Speaker 2: various environments. So they've done quite well with urban environments. 541 00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:15,520 Speaker 2: Uh and uh and yeah. We also discussed the heartbreaking 542 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:18,720 Speaker 2: video footage that you can look up online of a 543 00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:23,960 Speaker 2: raccoon attempting to to dunk it's uh it's a plunder 544 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:28,440 Speaker 2: of cotton candy into the water, and then seemingly confused 545 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:31,640 Speaker 2: as it draws the bounty back out of the water 546 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:36,000 Speaker 2: and finds that it is no longer uh there for it. 547 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:37,400 Speaker 2: It's again kind of heartbreaking to. 548 00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:39,880 Speaker 3: Watch yeah, totally. I just looked it up. By the way, 549 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:44,200 Speaker 3: it was in our series on animals, quote cooking things 550 00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:48,280 Speaker 3: on the cuisine and kitchen behaviors observed in animals, including 551 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:51,120 Speaker 3: the apparent washing of food. But again, I think there 552 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:53,880 Speaker 3: was a question of whether that's really what raccoons are 553 00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:54,400 Speaker 3: doing or not. 554 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:57,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, but they're they're they're they're little paws, they are 555 00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:01,120 Speaker 2: little hands. If you will are are are excellent. I've 556 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:03,800 Speaker 2: seen it described that they can essentially see with their 557 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:07,400 Speaker 2: hands in ways that we could maybe relate to on 558 00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:09,600 Speaker 2: some level, But as is often the case with the 559 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:14,800 Speaker 2: sense worlds of animals, of non human animals, we generally 560 00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:20,640 Speaker 2: can't fully imagine what it's like. Like they can see 561 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:22,280 Speaker 2: with their hands is the best way that we can 562 00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:23,239 Speaker 2: perhaps understand it. 563 00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:26,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that was one of the hypotheses. It was 564 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:30,000 Speaker 3: like that the water somehow hypercharges the sensitivity of the 565 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:31,840 Speaker 3: hands and sensing the food. Yeah. 566 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:35,720 Speaker 2: Yeah. Now this cave in question, Bracken Cave. This is 567 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:39,120 Speaker 2: a Texas cave outside of San Antonio that is home 568 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:43,440 Speaker 2: to the largest known bat colony in the world. Some 569 00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:47,920 Speaker 2: twenty million Mexican free tail bats roost here between March 570 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:51,560 Speaker 2: and October. This also apparently makes it the largest known 571 00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:56,239 Speaker 2: concentration of mammals period, including humans. I'm assuming, and I 572 00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:58,880 Speaker 2: imagine this takes into account the size of the cave 573 00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:02,720 Speaker 2: and the estimation estimated concentration of bats as compared to 574 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:06,400 Speaker 2: human cities. But even among human cities, there are only 575 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:09,360 Speaker 2: something like six cities with populations of more than twenty million. 576 00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:13,399 Speaker 2: So we're talking a lot of bats. And I didn't run, 577 00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:14,920 Speaker 2: I didn't look up or do the math on this, 578 00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:17,000 Speaker 2: but you know, you think about twenty million bats, how 579 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:21,239 Speaker 2: many bats are going to potentially fall? So that does 580 00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:24,960 Speaker 2: create a certain opportunity for animals that are willing to 581 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:27,560 Speaker 2: get in there day or night and pick them off 582 00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:29,239 Speaker 2: before they can get back up to the top. 583 00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, with twenty million bats, I mean, even if you 584 00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:35,040 Speaker 3: assume a low death rate, that's got to be thousands 585 00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:36,560 Speaker 3: falling into the floor all the time. 586 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:40,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, reptiles also get on in the action as well, 587 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:44,000 Speaker 2: as that paper indicated, And one of the more alarming examples, 588 00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:46,319 Speaker 2: I don't know, it could be alarming, depends on what 589 00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:51,160 Speaker 2: you think about snakes is the example of yellow red 590 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,719 Speaker 2: rat snakes found in a cave in Mexico that is 591 00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:57,560 Speaker 2: sometimes referred to as the Cave of Hanging Snakes. 592 00:34:58,160 --> 00:34:59,200 Speaker 3: Hanging snakes. 593 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:03,880 Speaker 2: Yes, so, the yellow red rat snake is endemic to 594 00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:10,280 Speaker 2: Mexico and Central America, so it's fairly widespread. It's non venomous. 595 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:13,600 Speaker 2: It prays mostly on rodents and birds and lizards, but 596 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:18,040 Speaker 2: also on the menu are bats. So the Mexican cave 597 00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:22,360 Speaker 2: in question is Cantemo Cave in the Mexican state of 598 00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:27,080 Speaker 2: kintani Roo, about one hundred and eighty miles from Cancun, 599 00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:31,280 Speaker 2: known locally just as the bat Cave. According to Jose 600 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:36,640 Speaker 2: Maria Morells, writing for Atlas Obscura, the snakes here have 601 00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:42,160 Speaker 2: developed an amazing method of eating those bats that doesn't 602 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:46,080 Speaker 2: involve picking them off on the cave floor. So what 603 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:49,800 Speaker 2: they do, apparently, is they crawl up into the cracks 604 00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:52,200 Speaker 2: in the ceiling of the cave as well as high 605 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:55,840 Speaker 2: up on the cave walls. And then when the bats, 606 00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,239 Speaker 2: you know, the bats are roosting in there, so they 607 00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:02,080 Speaker 2: leave and then they come back. They leave to feed, 608 00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:04,480 Speaker 2: and then they come back. And when they're doing this, 609 00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:06,920 Speaker 2: when they're going in or out of the cave, that 610 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:11,360 Speaker 2: is when the snakes will either dangle down or otherwise 611 00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:15,360 Speaker 2: like lash out to catch a passing bat in its mouth. 612 00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:16,040 Speaker 3: Wow. 613 00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:19,600 Speaker 2: And I've included a couple of photos here for you 614 00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:23,400 Speaker 2: to look at, Joe, one of the snake grabbing having 615 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:26,560 Speaker 2: grabbed a bat and it's like, you know, just swallowing it. 616 00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:28,880 Speaker 2: And then there's another one of the snake up in 617 00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:32,200 Speaker 2: the recesses. This is these are actually, these are excellent photos. 618 00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:36,360 Speaker 2: They're from a Newsweek article that put that that profiled 619 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:37,520 Speaker 2: these snakes. 620 00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:40,560 Speaker 3: That is crazy. Now, I had a question that I 621 00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:42,640 Speaker 3: think I may have partially answered, but I just looked 622 00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:47,840 Speaker 3: up more images of these snakes jumping out to snag bats, 623 00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:51,160 Speaker 3: and my question was, well, how do they have the 624 00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:53,799 Speaker 3: leverage to do that? Because I was imagining them just 625 00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:55,920 Speaker 3: sort of like crawling up a cave wall. But in 626 00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:57,920 Speaker 3: some of the pictures I'm looking at, they have found 627 00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:00,440 Speaker 3: like a they're in like a recess, like a cubby 628 00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:03,200 Speaker 3: hole in the wall, and so I think they're gripping 629 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:05,600 Speaker 3: something back there with the back half of their body 630 00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:07,879 Speaker 3: where they while they lunge out with the front half 631 00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:08,919 Speaker 3: to to grab a bat. 632 00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:11,160 Speaker 2: Now you mentioned looking up images of this, Yeah, there 633 00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:14,240 Speaker 2: there are a lot of images of these of these snakes. 634 00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:17,359 Speaker 2: There's some footage as well. This cave has become an 635 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:20,040 Speaker 2: ecotourism destination, so a lot of people have gotten to 636 00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:21,600 Speaker 2: go there. It's been covered in a lot of by 637 00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:25,600 Speaker 2: a lot of news outlets, various documentaries, so you can 638 00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:28,839 Speaker 2: definitely see some images of these snakes either you know, 639 00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:32,719 Speaker 2: dangling from the ceiling or consuming the bats that they 640 00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:33,520 Speaker 2: have acquired. 641 00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:37,040 Speaker 3: Wow, that's one of those behaviors where it's like, I 642 00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:40,400 Speaker 3: would love an evolutionary account of how that arises, if 643 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:45,439 Speaker 3: that's known, or if there's something suspected, like like how 644 00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:48,919 Speaker 3: long have these snakes specialized in attacking bats this way? 645 00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:50,759 Speaker 3: And like what were they doing before that? 646 00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:53,880 Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, I mean I guess it's kind of a 647 00:37:54,080 --> 00:38:02,719 Speaker 2: natural extrapolation of surface world environments, especially thinking our boreal environments, right. Yeah, 648 00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:04,920 Speaker 2: the cave is just like a novel form of that. 649 00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:08,279 Speaker 2: And with the bat population, you have just such a 650 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:12,400 Speaker 2: concentration of potential prey. You're going to have organisms that 651 00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:14,560 Speaker 2: are drawn to it and ones that are able to 652 00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:20,960 Speaker 2: adapt their existing practices, their existing predation and scavenging practices 653 00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:24,440 Speaker 2: to it, or as with the raccoon, are just generally 654 00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:27,239 Speaker 2: great opportunists. You know they're going to be able to 655 00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:29,600 Speaker 2: help reap some of that bounty for themselves. 656 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:32,760 Speaker 3: Well, Rob, thank you for introducing me to these hanging snakes. 657 00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:34,919 Speaker 3: I didn't know they existed, and now I love them. 658 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:38,560 Speaker 3: So I think we probably have to call it there 659 00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:41,120 Speaker 3: for part three of our series on cave biology, but 660 00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:42,759 Speaker 3: I think we're going to be back for one more. 661 00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:46,200 Speaker 3: Three was not enough. There will be one more episode. 662 00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:48,040 Speaker 2: I think, so. I think a fourth episode will wrap 663 00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:50,359 Speaker 2: it up for this journey into the caves, but you know, 664 00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:52,440 Speaker 2: after that, we'll probably be back in the future at 665 00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:56,399 Speaker 2: some point or another. Caves and their ecosystems and human 666 00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:59,799 Speaker 2: traditions associated with them are just too fascinating, all right. 667 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:01,680 Speaker 2: In the meantime, we're going to go ahead and remind 668 00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:04,000 Speaker 2: everybody that's stuff to blow your mind. Is primarily a 669 00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:07,520 Speaker 2: science and culture podcast that publishes new core episodes on 670 00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:11,520 Speaker 2: Tuesdays and Thursdays, Sandwiched in between there on Wednesdays, there's 671 00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:15,080 Speaker 2: a short form episode for you monster fact Artifact, or 672 00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:19,279 Speaker 2: Anamalia stipendium. On Mondays we do listener mail, and then 673 00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:21,640 Speaker 2: on Fridays we set aside most serious concerns to just 674 00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:25,400 Speaker 2: talk about a weird film on Weird House Cinema. Usually 675 00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:28,239 Speaker 2: those are self contained single episodes, but if you're just 676 00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:30,440 Speaker 2: tuning into our channel for the first time, this week, 677 00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:35,480 Speaker 2: we are covering David Lynch's nineteen eighty four adaptation of 678 00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:39,080 Speaker 2: Dune in two parts, because it is that weird, that 679 00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:41,840 Speaker 2: packed with talent, and also, you know, Dune is in 680 00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:43,719 Speaker 2: the air right now, the spice is in the air 681 00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:45,560 Speaker 2: and we have to acknowledge that. 682 00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:50,880 Speaker 3: Cool wahad Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio 683 00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:53,839 Speaker 3: producer JJ Posway. If you would like to get in 684 00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:56,359 Speaker 3: touch with us with feedback on this episode or any other, 685 00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:58,680 Speaker 3: to suggest a topic for the future, or just to 686 00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:01,920 Speaker 3: say hello, you can email us at contact at stuff 687 00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:11,520 Speaker 3: to Blow your Mind dot com. 688 00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:14,520 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 689 00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:18,440 Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 690 00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:34,280 Speaker 1: or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.