WEBVTT - Charlie Marinelli: Found 0:00:08.245 --> 0:00:15.925 School of Humans. Charlie Marinelli is having a psychotic break 0:00:15.965 --> 0:00:19.525 in India, a country halfway around the world, from his parents, 0:00:20.005 --> 0:00:23.685 Nanette and Charlie Senior, who are frantically trying to get 0:00:23.725 --> 0:00:27.885 to their son. On their layover in atam Bull, Nanette 0:00:27.885 --> 0:00:30.925 facetimes with Rennick, a friend of Charlie's they sent from 0:00:30.925 --> 0:00:33.245 Delhi to keep tabs on him until they got there. 0:00:34.245 --> 0:00:37.685 Rennick is standing with Charlie outside of a hospital, begging him, 0:00:37.725 --> 0:00:41.725 along with his parents, to go in, but Charlie refuses. 0:00:42.365 --> 0:00:45.565 He believes he's the Messiah and whatever this hospital is 0:00:45.565 --> 0:00:48.325 going to do to him will strip him of his enlightenment. 0:00:49.605 --> 0:00:52.565 But this is not a state of enlightenment that anyone 0:00:52.685 --> 0:00:57.525 can survive. If Rennick can't get Charlie into this hospital now, 0:00:58.165 --> 0:01:06.565 then Charlie will be another missing person in India. I 0:01:06.605 --> 0:01:09.605 went into psychosis, and there were definitely things that I 0:01:09.685 --> 0:01:12.885 did that were not rational at all, But the experience 0:01:12.965 --> 0:01:15.685 was very real and what I went through was very real. 0:01:16.525 --> 0:01:19.805 This is Charlie Marinelli. He's back from India and integrating 0:01:19.805 --> 0:01:22.765 after a psychosis. I got an email from him on 0:01:22.845 --> 0:01:26.125 March twenty second, with a subject line that read India 0:01:26.205 --> 0:01:30.085 Syndrome Survivor. Episode three of Austray just launched and I 0:01:30.085 --> 0:01:33.045 had received a handful of emails and dms from listeners, 0:01:33.165 --> 0:01:37.725 but this one, as you can imagine, stopped me my tracks. 0:01:38.485 --> 0:01:40.325 When I got on a call with him, he told 0:01:40.325 --> 0:01:42.285 me a story. I was on the edge of my 0:01:42.365 --> 0:01:45.765 seat for every minute of that three hour call. Charlie 0:01:45.845 --> 0:01:48.365 ended up going into that hospital with Rennick and his 0:01:48.485 --> 0:01:51.405 parents eventually met him there, but how he got there 0:01:51.565 --> 0:01:56.845 as a journey that's changed him forever. Last week we 0:01:56.885 --> 0:02:00.125 heard Charlie's family speak and depth about their rescue mission. 0:02:00.485 --> 0:02:03.485 But this week we'll hear from Charlie, who knows what 0:02:03.605 --> 0:02:07.445 the cost of enlightenment is because he's lived it and 0:02:07.565 --> 0:02:10.685 he's here to talk about it. I don't know if 0:02:10.685 --> 0:02:14.005 I was running away from something or towards something, maybe 0:02:14.005 --> 0:02:16.245 a little bit of both. That I was running towards 0:02:16.405 --> 0:02:20.285 some promise of higher level of living or some you know, 0:02:20.525 --> 0:02:25.845 higher mental state, and I was running away from the 0:02:25.885 --> 0:02:29.565 emotions of my grandfather dying and all of that. After 0:02:29.645 --> 0:02:33.325 his grandfather's death, he started to rethink at all and 0:02:33.445 --> 0:02:36.565 going to India felt like the next step, a new phase. 0:02:37.005 --> 0:02:40.765 It's the next level place, if you're a secret. For 0:02:40.925 --> 0:02:42.845 me to go to India is to be away from 0:02:42.845 --> 0:02:44.845 my family and to be able to think for my 0:02:44.925 --> 0:02:52.685 own and to go more inward. On July ninth, twenty nineteen, 0:02:53.205 --> 0:02:56.405 Charlie flew to Delhi. He spent one night there then 0:02:56.445 --> 0:02:59.165 headed to Bagsu, which is a twelve hour drive through 0:02:59.205 --> 0:03:01.885 the Himalayas from Delhi and it is about thirty minutes 0:03:01.885 --> 0:03:05.285 from the Dalai Lama's temple in Darmshala. I got there 0:03:05.725 --> 0:03:10.405 and started hanging out with a bunch of people community. 0:03:10.885 --> 0:03:15.525 It was relaxing, it was meditating, it was hiking a lot. 0:03:15.605 --> 0:03:17.645 It was just an adventure and there was so much 0:03:17.685 --> 0:03:20.645 to do there. There were all these yoga classes, yoga 0:03:20.685 --> 0:03:25.285 teacher training, massage training, this raiky instructors. There were all 0:03:25.365 --> 0:03:27.405 of these different things and I never did any of them. 0:03:27.445 --> 0:03:30.165 I just I was meditating and I was going and 0:03:30.325 --> 0:03:33.965 visiting temples in the mountains. And so for about a 0:03:34.045 --> 0:03:38.125 month there, it was just hanging out smoking chill them. 0:03:38.925 --> 0:03:42.165 We've spoken about chilling before, but I didn't realize there's 0:03:42.205 --> 0:03:46.165 a ritual around smoking it. Chillum is a ceremony when 0:03:46.205 --> 0:03:48.685 you light up at chill em. You know, you say 0:03:49.805 --> 0:03:52.245 one of the things was boom by way, not sab kissa, 0:03:52.765 --> 0:03:56.365 and you say this before you are boom shiva, basically 0:03:56.405 --> 0:03:59.565 saying you're smoking with shiva type of deal. Everyone sits 0:03:59.605 --> 0:04:01.925 down in a circle, whether you're at a table or 0:04:02.005 --> 0:04:06.765 you're on the ground, and one person lights it for you. 0:04:06.765 --> 0:04:10.085 You have to get it going, get it going. It's 0:04:10.125 --> 0:04:13.325 mixed with tobacco, so it's harsh. It hits very hard, 0:04:13.405 --> 0:04:19.325 so it feels like, I guess smoking a decent amount 0:04:19.365 --> 0:04:23.845 of not very good weed. So Charlie didn't listen to 0:04:23.885 --> 0:04:26.645 his mom's warning not to do drugs in India, but 0:04:26.765 --> 0:04:29.805 Chilham was his only vice. He wasn't drinking, he was 0:04:29.845 --> 0:04:33.805 eating clean, meditating daily. It was exactly what he needed. 0:04:34.245 --> 0:04:36.365 But he got a wake up call about a month 0:04:36.405 --> 0:04:38.365 into his visit when he walked into one of the 0:04:38.405 --> 0:04:42.365 cafes he frequented. An American woman in her sixties was 0:04:42.405 --> 0:04:47.405 there and something wasn't right. She's very disoriented. And I 0:04:47.485 --> 0:04:50.845 came in and this cafe I went to every day, 0:04:51.085 --> 0:04:53.525 so they knew me, they trusted me, they liked me. 0:04:54.165 --> 0:04:56.005 They're like, hey, this lady, I don't know if you 0:04:56.045 --> 0:04:59.645 can help her out. She's an American and she's not 0:04:59.925 --> 0:05:04.405 acting rationally. She's just got out of two silent meditations 0:05:04.405 --> 0:05:07.565 and was doing a dry fast, which means that you 0:05:07.605 --> 0:05:10.565 don't eat, you don't drink, you don't shower. It was intense. 0:05:10.885 --> 0:05:14.205 She was scared. She didn't know where she was, She 0:05:14.245 --> 0:05:16.725 didn't have her passport, her clothes. She had a little 0:05:16.765 --> 0:05:19.765 bag of like one change of clothes. I was like, 0:05:19.765 --> 0:05:21.845 where's your passport. She's like, I don't know where my 0:05:21.885 --> 0:05:24.165 money is and I didn't. I couldn't pay them for 0:05:24.485 --> 0:05:28.445 my room, so they kept my passport, so I can't 0:05:28.445 --> 0:05:31.525 find a place to stay. And she's just like she's 0:05:31.565 --> 0:05:34.285 out of her mind. She could not I mean, I 0:05:34.325 --> 0:05:36.085 didn't even think I could get her name out of her. 0:05:36.605 --> 0:05:38.645 And so we talked for a little bit, and she 0:05:38.765 --> 0:05:40.605 was just really freaked out. She didn't know what to do. 0:05:40.725 --> 0:05:43.765 She was basically in what I would call a psychosis state. 0:05:44.765 --> 0:05:47.645 Even though this woman was acting off, he didn't want 0:05:47.645 --> 0:05:49.365 to leave her stranded, so we let her use his 0:05:49.485 --> 0:05:52.445 room to shower and hopefully sleep off whatever she was on, 0:05:52.725 --> 0:05:54.965 if it was a drug or if it was due 0:05:55.005 --> 0:05:57.445 to her dry fast, to drink some water, and acclimate. 0:05:57.965 --> 0:06:00.845 But it wasn't that easy. My friends got me a 0:06:00.885 --> 0:06:03.365 little paranoid because I was like, I have this person 0:06:03.405 --> 0:06:06.965 who's in psychosis in my room in India. So they 0:06:06.965 --> 0:06:09.125 got me a little paranoid as like what could happen? 0:06:09.405 --> 0:06:11.605 And then the other thing was as worried that, you know, 0:06:11.685 --> 0:06:13.285 I didn't know if she was gonna die or she 0:06:13.405 --> 0:06:16.285 was gonna She didn't drink water for like I think 0:06:16.485 --> 0:06:20.765 seven days or something. She was not looking well. So 0:06:20.805 --> 0:06:22.405 the next morning I was like, Okay, we need to 0:06:22.405 --> 0:06:24.605 go to a hospital, Like, come with me. We're going 0:06:24.685 --> 0:06:26.365 to go down to town and I'm going to take 0:06:26.405 --> 0:06:28.005 you to a hospital and we're going to figure this out. 0:06:28.285 --> 0:06:30.405 She wouldn't come. She did not want to leave the room. 0:06:30.525 --> 0:06:32.885 The people that I rented the room from, they were 0:06:32.925 --> 0:06:35.485 like weirded out because they knew she wasn't in her 0:06:35.525 --> 0:06:37.885 right mind. And I couldn't get her to leave to 0:06:37.925 --> 0:06:39.925 go to the hospital. So I ended up calling the 0:06:40.005 --> 0:06:42.925 US embassy. They called the local police. The police came. 0:06:43.685 --> 0:06:45.965 The reason I told you that story is because these 0:06:46.045 --> 0:06:49.525 police that came that were called from the US Embassy 0:06:49.645 --> 0:06:52.085 to come and deal with this woman were the same 0:06:52.125 --> 0:06:55.485 police that came and dealt with me later, and this 0:06:55.605 --> 0:06:59.485 part I think is very important. Keeps this in mind 0:06:59.485 --> 0:07:02.445 for later, but for now. Charlie, with the help of 0:07:02.485 --> 0:07:05.165 the police, was able to safely remove the woman from 0:07:05.245 --> 0:07:07.605 his room and she was taken to the hospital for 0:07:07.645 --> 0:07:11.725 immediate care. So that was my first brush against psychosis 0:07:11.725 --> 0:07:14.165 in India, but it didn't really trigger anything for me 0:07:14.245 --> 0:07:18.325 at that time. Little did Charlie know this woman's delusion 0:07:18.765 --> 0:07:23.365 would be his reality in just two months, because he 0:07:23.485 --> 0:07:26.885 was about to meet someone who would change his life forever. 0:07:27.805 --> 0:07:30.445 I think one of my main things was looking for 0:07:30.485 --> 0:07:32.565 a teacher. I think that was one of my intentions. 0:07:33.285 --> 0:07:37.485 Charlie came to India seeking more enlightenment or an awakening, 0:07:37.685 --> 0:07:41.125 which is the word he prefers to use, and he 0:07:41.165 --> 0:07:44.485 had heard these legendary stories of Baba's or holy men 0:07:44.885 --> 0:07:47.325 who were able to transcend what we believe to be 0:07:47.485 --> 0:07:50.925 humanly possible. I still can't place whether things are true 0:07:51.005 --> 0:07:53.685 or false with India because I've heard stories of Baba's 0:07:53.765 --> 0:07:57.045 levitating in the mountains and not eating. And there's a 0:07:57.125 --> 0:08:00.285 hand printing I think it's in a Himalayan cave or 0:08:00.325 --> 0:08:03.845 something of someone putting their hand through a wall. It 0:08:04.005 --> 0:08:08.125 was an ancient teacher and just showing that these boundaries 0:08:08.125 --> 0:08:11.445 that we have in our heads don't exist. Charlie didn't 0:08:11.445 --> 0:08:14.485 know if these legends about baba's were true, but he 0:08:14.605 --> 0:08:17.085 did want to meet one of these babas, someone who 0:08:17.125 --> 0:08:21.805 could guide him on a spiritual path, a teacher. And 0:08:21.845 --> 0:08:27.045 then finally, how did we meet? And eventually he found him. 0:08:27.085 --> 0:08:30.245 He called his teacher the Baba and Black because he 0:08:30.285 --> 0:08:33.005 wore black robes, as opposed to the handful of other 0:08:33.045 --> 0:08:37.125 babas Charlie and matten Bagsu who all wore white. And 0:08:37.245 --> 0:08:40.285 this kind of has some significance for some reason. I 0:08:40.325 --> 0:08:42.765 think of the light in the dark side. The Baba 0:08:42.765 --> 0:08:46.325 and Black goes by Baba Gee and at this point 0:08:46.685 --> 0:08:50.605 Charlie was charmed by him. He provided the same spiritually 0:08:50.685 --> 0:08:53.725 rich conversation that the other babas did, but there was 0:08:53.805 --> 0:08:57.125 something more. Obviously, I had never met this guy before, 0:08:57.325 --> 0:09:00.085 and immediately we had like this connection. It was like 0:09:00.165 --> 0:09:01.965 seeing someone that you hadn't seen for a long time. 0:09:02.245 --> 0:09:06.525 He was an intelligent person, he knew multiple languages. He 0:09:06.565 --> 0:09:09.805 had like this playfulness to him right, he had this joyful, 0:09:10.085 --> 0:09:14.685 kidlike spirit. Charlie felt a familiarity with Boba Gee and 0:09:14.765 --> 0:09:18.405 eventually he knew. I was like, oh, I found my teacher. 0:09:18.805 --> 0:09:22.365 He just came. He found me. For Charlie, being in 0:09:22.405 --> 0:09:25.445 the presence of Baba Gee was an education in itself. 0:09:26.045 --> 0:09:28.965 He was a sounding board and guided Charlie to trust 0:09:29.045 --> 0:09:33.245 himself in his own spiritual insights. They were so connected 0:09:33.325 --> 0:09:36.405 that eventually they didn't even have to use words to 0:09:36.405 --> 0:09:40.725 express themselves. At a certain point, the Baba and I 0:09:41.205 --> 0:09:44.605 weren't physically talking to each other in the most simple sense. 0:09:44.645 --> 0:09:48.565 It was to me we were communicating through telepathy. See, 0:09:48.645 --> 0:09:51.445 this is where it gets weird. We'll get into how 0:09:51.525 --> 0:10:00.365 weird things got after the break. Charlie had set an 0:10:00.365 --> 0:10:03.525 intention for India to find a teacher to guide him 0:10:03.565 --> 0:10:06.445 on a spiritual path to an away makening. When he 0:10:06.525 --> 0:10:09.645 met Baba Gee, he knew he'd found his teacher. What 0:10:09.805 --> 0:10:12.845 he didn't know was what was in store for him next. 0:10:13.805 --> 0:10:18.005 We were communicating through telepathy, but it felt perfectly natural. 0:10:18.045 --> 0:10:21.565 It's like, whoa, this is interesting. I was hearing thoughts 0:10:21.725 --> 0:10:23.965 and I was like, wait a minute, these are from him. 0:10:24.045 --> 0:10:26.045 There were even points in time where I was like 0:10:26.565 --> 0:10:29.685 physically voiced. I can't hear you anymore. He's like, get 0:10:29.685 --> 0:10:32.485 out of your head. Your mind is too cluttered. So 0:10:32.605 --> 0:10:35.605 there was a confirmation that we were talking right now. 0:10:35.645 --> 0:10:39.525 That would seem a little weird, then it was perfectly normal. 0:10:40.285 --> 0:10:43.925 At this time, reality was blurring with something Charlie didn't 0:10:43.965 --> 0:10:48.325 understand and couldn't control. From this point in time, I 0:10:48.405 --> 0:10:50.125 was still hanging out with the blah blah a lot, 0:10:50.685 --> 0:10:54.365 and I no longer slept, you know. I'd hang around 0:10:54.365 --> 0:10:57.325 the cafes during the day. I'd be walking in the 0:10:57.365 --> 0:11:01.965 Himalayas barefoot and sometimes with no shirt all night. Things 0:11:02.005 --> 0:11:04.085 took over when I was when I was in this 0:11:04.245 --> 0:11:07.205 state of doing jewels that I didn't know what they were. 0:11:08.605 --> 0:11:11.165 As he wandered at night, he would find these small 0:11:11.285 --> 0:11:14.845 private temples on people's properties where he would chant and 0:11:14.885 --> 0:11:18.765 perform rituals he had no prior knowledge of. He'd also 0:11:18.805 --> 0:11:21.885 paint his face like different Hindu gods. He didn't use 0:11:21.885 --> 0:11:24.485 any pictures of these gods to instruct him, or even 0:11:24.525 --> 0:11:27.805 a mirror. It's like he already knew what he was doing. 0:11:28.805 --> 0:11:33.165 At one point in time, I was absolutely convinced that 0:11:33.485 --> 0:11:38.005 the Dalai Lama was a higher incarnation of my dad. 0:11:38.405 --> 0:11:40.965 So at a certain point I was walking down to 0:11:41.045 --> 0:11:44.245 the Dalai Lama at Dalai Lama Temple every morning and 0:11:44.325 --> 0:11:47.725 waiting there. In my head, I had already had a 0:11:47.765 --> 0:11:52.765 conversation with him, you know, and we both understood that 0:11:52.885 --> 0:11:56.525 he was my dad. Finally I went up and actually 0:11:56.725 --> 0:12:00.685 requested his presence from the guards, which I was obviously 0:12:01.045 --> 0:12:05.325 very much denied. In this state, Charlie believed he was 0:12:05.525 --> 0:12:08.525 connected to the Dali Lama because he saw himself as 0:12:08.605 --> 0:12:12.565 one with everything, so there was no separation between himself 0:12:12.605 --> 0:12:14.765 and the Dalai Lama, just like there would be no 0:12:14.805 --> 0:12:18.565 separation between himself and the Messiah or Jesus, whom he 0:12:18.565 --> 0:12:25.765 would eventually claim to be. So through this period of psychosis, india, syndrome, 0:12:25.845 --> 0:12:28.165 whatever you want to call it, I started, you know, 0:12:28.565 --> 0:12:31.565 very much believing I was enlightened, very much believing I 0:12:31.725 --> 0:12:36.605 was some sort of reincarnation of Jesus or Buddha or whoever, 0:12:37.365 --> 0:12:40.445 as very much believing that I was put there to 0:12:41.005 --> 0:12:46.525 cleanse people of their demons. In his state, Charlie was 0:12:46.565 --> 0:12:51.325 seeing physical manifestations of demons and people's faces and bodies. 0:12:52.445 --> 0:12:55.685 I remember I was sitting in a cafe and this 0:12:55.845 --> 0:13:01.045 guy walked in. He was wearing a fancy fedora, nice clothes, 0:13:01.365 --> 0:13:06.845 but his face was completely dysform looked like it had 0:13:06.925 --> 0:13:12.645 been through a fire. He was missing fingers, teeth, all well. 0:13:12.725 --> 0:13:17.205 Being very well dressed, Charlie saw these man's deformities, which 0:13:17.245 --> 0:13:20.365 made him look like a demon, as a manifestation of 0:13:20.365 --> 0:13:24.445 the man's materialism or greed. So Charlie approached this guy 0:13:24.485 --> 0:13:28.005 and asked him if he could perform a blessing on him. Surprisingly, 0:13:28.405 --> 0:13:32.405 this guy accepted Charlie's offer. Charlie knew the owner of 0:13:32.405 --> 0:13:34.285 the cafe and asked her to bring them a bowl 0:13:34.325 --> 0:13:37.685 of soup. He performed a blessing or spell over the 0:13:37.725 --> 0:13:40.485 soup and asked the guy to drink the whole cup. 0:13:41.165 --> 0:13:43.885 After he did, the man went into the bathroom, and 0:13:43.925 --> 0:13:47.725 from outside the door, Charlie could hear something happening in there. 0:13:48.005 --> 0:13:51.045 Maybe he was throwing up or who knows, but there 0:13:51.085 --> 0:13:54.365 were definitely noises coming from the bathroom, which in his state, 0:13:54.485 --> 0:13:58.045 Charlie saw as part of the purification process or an exorcism. 0:13:59.325 --> 0:14:02.725 When the noises died down, Charlie knocked on the bathroom door, 0:14:03.485 --> 0:14:06.565 opened the door and sat down next to him, and 0:14:06.565 --> 0:14:08.245 he was kind of freaking out, and I said, now 0:14:08.565 --> 0:14:11.085 you go on this hike. And I told him to 0:14:11.125 --> 0:14:14.085 go on this certain hike. It's, you know, a sacred 0:14:14.125 --> 0:14:18.325 mountain right at the base of the MLAs in northern India. 0:14:18.405 --> 0:14:23.445 And he left. Anyone on this hike and time was 0:14:23.485 --> 0:14:26.685 irrelevant at this point for me. But a bit later 0:14:27.045 --> 0:14:30.925 someone came walking through the door wearing very natural like 0:14:31.045 --> 0:14:36.965 hemp clothing and very grounded looking person and no deformities, 0:14:37.005 --> 0:14:40.445 and walks in and says thank you for telling me 0:14:40.485 --> 0:14:42.365 to go on that hike, and thank you for everything. 0:14:42.605 --> 0:14:45.045 And then it clicked that that was the same person. 0:14:45.485 --> 0:14:48.525 And I did the cleansing on He just found himself. 0:14:48.645 --> 0:14:52.085 He just went and did a spirit quest. So at 0:14:52.085 --> 0:14:55.685 this point Charlie was living in a different reality than others, 0:14:55.885 --> 0:14:58.605 and looking back on it, he can't decipher what was 0:14:58.685 --> 0:15:02.445 real or what was a result of his psychosis. Some people, 0:15:02.565 --> 0:15:05.365 like this man he had helped, saw him as he 0:15:05.485 --> 0:15:10.405 I saw himself and enlightened being. These people identified him 0:15:10.445 --> 0:15:14.805 as a baba. There were many more experiences like this, 0:15:15.485 --> 0:15:20.765 and it went from being accepted to being I got 0:15:20.925 --> 0:15:23.245 beat up by I don't know how many Indian people 0:15:23.285 --> 0:15:25.805 at one point in time started hitting me till I 0:15:25.885 --> 0:15:28.685 hit the ground. I mean, to them, it looks like 0:15:28.845 --> 0:15:32.005 a psychowesterner trying to I don't know, cast spells on 0:15:32.085 --> 0:15:35.885 someone type of thing. From what Charlie says, he was 0:15:35.925 --> 0:15:39.205 walking into people's shops and cafes, trying to cleanse them 0:15:39.245 --> 0:15:42.285 of their demons with various rituals he was pulling out 0:15:42.285 --> 0:15:45.125 of nowhere. It was apparently disturbing to a few of 0:15:45.165 --> 0:15:48.525 the people he approached, especially as the psychosis got worse. 0:15:49.645 --> 0:15:52.725 During this time, there were brief moments where Charlie was 0:15:52.885 --> 0:15:57.565 completely lucid, and one of these moments, Charlie remembers waking 0:15:57.645 --> 0:16:01.845 up from his psychosis terrified. So I was sitting in 0:16:01.845 --> 0:16:04.285 my room at this one night, and it almost felt 0:16:04.325 --> 0:16:07.285 like I was coming down from a journey from a trip. 0:16:08.285 --> 0:16:12.165 To be clear, Charlie's longest acid trip lasted twelve hours, 0:16:12.245 --> 0:16:16.285 which is a really long time. But this psychosis Charlie 0:16:16.325 --> 0:16:19.685 was in lasted at least two weeks, with brief moments 0:16:19.685 --> 0:16:22.925 of clarity like this one. And I finally called my 0:16:23.005 --> 0:16:24.685 dad and I told him I was scared of something. 0:16:24.725 --> 0:16:26.245 I was like, I don't know if it's this Bamba. 0:16:26.325 --> 0:16:28.565 I don't know what it is. I think someone's drugging me. 0:16:29.125 --> 0:16:32.085 I'm not in the right state of mind. I don't 0:16:32.085 --> 0:16:34.165 know what to do. I feel like it's all around me, 0:16:34.285 --> 0:16:38.445 like I felt vulnerable, and I was scared, like really scared. 0:16:38.485 --> 0:16:40.205 I did not know what to do. My dad he 0:16:40.285 --> 0:16:43.485 got scared. He was like, hack up your stuff and 0:16:43.725 --> 0:16:48.005 leave now. As we heard in the last episode, this 0:16:48.045 --> 0:16:51.085 is when Charlie's parents went into rescue mode and started 0:16:51.125 --> 0:16:54.565 their panicked journey to India to save him, which was 0:16:54.605 --> 0:16:58.725 crucial because after this call an a lucid conversation Charlie 0:16:58.725 --> 0:17:01.445 had with a friend about suspicions he was being drugged, 0:17:01.645 --> 0:17:10.125 he fell right back into psychosis. Before we go any further, 0:17:10.485 --> 0:17:12.525 I want to cover something else that might have been 0:17:12.525 --> 0:17:16.085 going on between Charlie and Baba Ge. Now we've explored 0:17:16.165 --> 0:17:19.325 a lot of facets of spirituality in this podcast, and 0:17:19.445 --> 0:17:22.525 what we're about to discuss might be the most out there, 0:17:22.725 --> 0:17:26.845 but I think it's valuable to share. Remember how Charlie 0:17:26.885 --> 0:17:29.925 said that Baba G, who he referenced as the Baba 0:17:29.965 --> 0:17:33.805 and Black, represented the dark side. Well, I was talking 0:17:33.805 --> 0:17:36.925 to Suzi Singh, a New Delhi based therapist and author 0:17:37.085 --> 0:17:38.805 who in Keita and I will be speaking to in 0:17:38.845 --> 0:17:42.725 the next episode, and she mentioned something we haven't explored 0:17:42.805 --> 0:17:46.845 yet which she thinks is important to identify, and that's 0:17:46.965 --> 0:17:50.325 black magic and the occult, or as Charlie put it, 0:17:50.845 --> 0:17:54.165 the dark side. The occult relates to magic and the 0:17:54.205 --> 0:17:58.205 supernatural and falls outside the scope of religion and science. 0:17:59.165 --> 0:18:03.965 The learned occultist is able to see here and do 0:18:04.165 --> 0:18:06.965 things that I hidden from the eyes of ordinary people, 0:18:07.085 --> 0:18:11.485 and that seemed like magic. So when occult practices are 0:18:11.805 --> 0:18:14.685 used for the good of other people or for the 0:18:14.685 --> 0:18:18.405 good of one's own self to gain evolution and enlightenment, 0:18:18.725 --> 0:18:23.525 it is constructive, it's powerful, it's positive black magic. On 0:18:23.565 --> 0:18:28.205 the other hand, it's the misuse of occult information to 0:18:28.365 --> 0:18:32.845 cause harm to others through the manipulation of energy for 0:18:33.005 --> 0:18:38.045 some personal game. Now, this distinction is really important, Caroline, 0:18:38.085 --> 0:18:40.485 because just as fire can be used to cook a 0:18:40.525 --> 0:18:44.925 meal or to burn down the house, occult practices can 0:18:44.965 --> 0:18:50.325 be used for evolution often destruction. It depends entirely on 0:18:50.365 --> 0:18:54.605 the intention. So as black magic really dangerous, and do 0:18:54.685 --> 0:18:59.325 you have examples of this? Black magic is definitely dangerous 0:18:59.365 --> 0:19:02.485 in India. People who practice it are often referred to 0:19:02.685 --> 0:19:07.645 as panthrics. In November twenty twenty, there was a news 0:19:07.765 --> 0:19:10.565 report about a six year old girl in Khanpu who 0:19:10.645 --> 0:19:13.485 was raped and murdered on Devali night, which is a 0:19:13.565 --> 0:19:17.085 festival of lights incidentally, and her liver was extracted for 0:19:17.125 --> 0:19:20.045 a thumb thick ritual which involved eating the liver to 0:19:20.245 --> 0:19:24.085 enable a childless couple to bear a child. I've heard 0:19:24.085 --> 0:19:27.845 of several such instances where you can kill another person's 0:19:27.925 --> 0:19:31.845 child just to become pregnant to yourself, so we can 0:19:31.925 --> 0:19:37.125 see how destructive and how evil in darkness is saying. 0:19:37.285 --> 0:19:40.485 Also had thoughts in charlie situation if in fact this 0:19:40.725 --> 0:19:43.565 baba was performing some sort of black magic on him. 0:19:43.965 --> 0:19:47.525 I think what you're referring to in Charlie's case is 0:19:47.565 --> 0:19:52.005 something called Bashi curran, which is a hypnotic state brought 0:19:52.045 --> 0:19:54.805 on by the Baba and Charlie, who then becomes like 0:19:54.845 --> 0:19:58.485 a puppet on his chain. Once the barber has control 0:19:58.565 --> 0:20:02.725 over his mind, Charlie has very little personal who were left. 0:20:03.125 --> 0:20:07.525 He is going to be directed entirely by the magician himself. 0:20:07.885 --> 0:20:10.445 In some ways, it can be compared to voodoo practice 0:20:11.085 --> 0:20:13.845 So if this is what was happening, did Charlie, how 0:20:13.885 --> 0:20:17.245 could he have protected himself? When we talk of black 0:20:17.285 --> 0:20:21.205 magic in general, protection can become very difficult because one 0:20:21.285 --> 0:20:24.965 may have no idea where the harm is coming from. 0:20:25.485 --> 0:20:28.085 From the little experienced and exposure that I have in 0:20:28.165 --> 0:20:30.765 this field, personally, I've come to conclude that one of 0:20:30.765 --> 0:20:35.125 the most powerful protection arises from beaming blessings and love 0:20:35.245 --> 0:20:39.965 to the sender. So, according to Saying, love is an 0:20:39.965 --> 0:20:45.765 insulator against black magic, while fear enhances it. I had 0:20:45.805 --> 0:20:48.845 an energy session with an Irish practitioner when I was 0:20:48.885 --> 0:20:52.325 going through a tough spot in December. I was hoping 0:20:52.405 --> 0:20:55.605 he could clear some stuff. I was feeling blocked, like 0:20:55.725 --> 0:20:58.525 nothing was flowing. Things were either blowing up or they 0:20:58.525 --> 0:21:02.085 were stagnant. And though this practitioner didn't use the term 0:21:02.205 --> 0:21:05.965 black magic, he did identify what was going on between 0:21:05.965 --> 0:21:08.285 me and another person he said was part of the 0:21:08.325 --> 0:21:11.765 problem the same way Sing described the dynamic between the 0:21:11.805 --> 0:21:16.565 Baba and Charlie, and the intentions this practitioner set energetically 0:21:16.645 --> 0:21:20.125 were also the same as Sing just expressed. He took 0:21:20.125 --> 0:21:23.405 me through a visual exercise of sending love and blessings 0:21:23.405 --> 0:21:27.085 to this person with the intention to transform their negative energy, 0:21:27.565 --> 0:21:31.605 and it worked. This practice of sending blessings is not 0:21:31.765 --> 0:21:36.765 regulated to tantric or energetic healing. It's like prayer and religion. 0:21:37.285 --> 0:21:39.685 So even though this idea of magic can be hard 0:21:39.725 --> 0:21:42.725 to comprehend in our Western culture, if you view it 0:21:42.765 --> 0:21:46.125 in a different context you're familiar with, it makes sense. 0:21:46.725 --> 0:21:49.805 But what might make more sense in context to Charlie 0:21:49.805 --> 0:21:53.685 in his situation is that he was being drugged, which 0:21:53.685 --> 0:21:57.005 is something as dad believes he was drugged. Can I 0:21:57.045 --> 0:21:59.405 prove it? No, I didn't go to Bagsue. The only 0:21:59.445 --> 0:22:01.965 reason why I know that that happened to him is 0:22:02.005 --> 0:22:05.485 because what he had done in the past, the experiences 0:22:05.525 --> 0:22:09.445 that he had taken other people on and been on himself, 0:22:09.565 --> 0:22:13.885 he always came back grounded. He journaled what had I learned. 0:22:14.925 --> 0:22:18.685 This was not that type of experience. This was psychosis, 0:22:18.685 --> 0:22:22.085 according to Charlie, and like nothing he'd ever experienced before, 0:22:22.685 --> 0:22:27.645 and his parents knew it. So September twenty nineteen, after 0:22:27.765 --> 0:22:31.525 Nanette and Charlie Senior both received those cryptic FaceTime calls 0:22:31.565 --> 0:22:34.445 from Charlie, they were on a seventeen hour of flight 0:22:34.565 --> 0:22:38.445 heading to India to track down their son. In the meantime, 0:22:38.685 --> 0:22:41.645 they sent Rennick from Delhi to Bagsue to keep tabs 0:22:41.645 --> 0:22:44.365 on Charlie. In the United States Embassy, it sent the 0:22:44.365 --> 0:22:48.565 Indian police to help. Apparently this part the police got involved. 0:22:48.925 --> 0:22:51.645 They found me. I'd disappeared from them for a few days, 0:22:52.245 --> 0:22:56.765 like days, I don't know where I went. I think 0:22:56.805 --> 0:22:58.805 this was the tipping point where it could have gone 0:22:58.845 --> 0:23:05.765 really wrong and I could have disappeared. Charlie is lost 0:23:05.925 --> 0:23:08.445 a lot of time and clarity due to the state 0:23:08.485 --> 0:23:10.525 he was in, but he's been told that he was 0:23:10.565 --> 0:23:13.405 found naked in the woods by Taurists who were hiking, 0:23:13.685 --> 0:23:16.765 which Charlie's mom the Net confirmed in the last episode. 0:23:17.605 --> 0:23:20.365 Something happened and they found me. And then the next 0:23:20.365 --> 0:23:23.965 thing I remember is these police. So I knew these 0:23:24.005 --> 0:23:27.845 police from before. These were the same Indian police that 0:23:27.925 --> 0:23:30.165 the US Embassy had sent to help Charlie get the 0:23:30.205 --> 0:23:33.245 American woman and psychosis out of his room and into 0:23:33.285 --> 0:23:36.405 a hospital. They'd built her apport with Charlie through that, 0:23:37.045 --> 0:23:39.925 so as you can imagine, when Rennick led them to 0:23:40.005 --> 0:23:42.965 him and he was in the same psychotic state as 0:23:43.005 --> 0:23:47.085 that woman, it was a shock. They came up to 0:23:47.125 --> 0:23:49.925 where I was in a cafe. My friend brought them 0:23:49.965 --> 0:23:52.525 to me. I was like, oh, these guys are my friends. 0:23:52.525 --> 0:23:56.045 I already knew who they were, right. They were very nice. 0:23:56.085 --> 0:23:59.925 I mean, these police were saints, and they're like, okay, cool, 0:24:00.125 --> 0:24:03.045