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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show.

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Speaker 1: My name is Matt, my name is They called me Ben.

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Speaker 1: We're joined as always with our super producer Paul mission

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Speaker 1: controlled decads. Most importantly, you are you. You are here,

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Speaker 1: and that makes this the stuff they don't want you

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Speaker 1: to know. If you didn't check the title for today's episode,

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Speaker 1: we're diving deep into something very old that remains very

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Speaker 1: controversial in the modern day. We're talking about religion. It's

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Speaker 1: one of the oldest concepts in human society. It's uh

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Speaker 1: been the ruinous subject of many Thanksgiving dinners, you name it.

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Speaker 1: Religion has been somehow involved because it's you know, when

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Speaker 1: you think about it, thinking about this guy's it's the

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Speaker 1: first example of the human species attempting to explain why

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Speaker 1: something happens, you know, all the all like things like

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Speaker 1: why does the sun come up? Why does the sun

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Speaker 1: sometimes uh seem to disappear from the sky, Why are

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Speaker 1: we here at all? Where do we go after this?

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Speaker 1: What happens when we die, What does all of this mean? Why? Why? Why? Why?

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Speaker 1: Religion attempts to answer those questions, and for many people

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Speaker 1: it provides the only answers that they feel confident in,

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Speaker 1: and it's responsible for tremendous acts of kindness. It's also

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Speaker 1: a been a rationalization for countless heartbreaking atrocities. You know.

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Speaker 1: It's uh, we have a disclaimer. I think we need

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Speaker 1: to put in the front here. We do. And Ben,

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Speaker 1: I think your description of the origin of all religion,

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Speaker 1: of any religion explain a lot of the conflict that

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Speaker 1: has occurred between religious organizations over the years. Because you've

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Speaker 1: got pockets of people living together, someone or a group

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Speaker 1: of people come up with that explanation of why in

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Speaker 1: their bubble, uh, you know, miles and miles away, maybe

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Speaker 1: continents away. Another group of people does the same thing,

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Speaker 1: but they have their their own answers that they come to.

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Speaker 1: And then eventually when those two groups meet, and this

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Speaker 1: is just one example, they have to decide who's right.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, there's so much parallel thinking, right, They're like

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Speaker 1: kind of like key tenants in all major religions that

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Speaker 1: all aligned pretty well. And yet it has to be

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Speaker 1: this like spiritual pissing contest kind of it always ends

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Speaker 1: up being that and more than just that, I mean

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Speaker 1: larger obviously, whole wars and uh, genocide and all of

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Speaker 1: these you know, awful things that human beings do, all

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Speaker 1: in the name of My God is better than your God.

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Speaker 1: And that's why we are saying to you listening to

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Speaker 1: this that we are not making any judgments on anyone's

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Speaker 1: personal beliefs, and we would never tell Nope, we would

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Speaker 1: never tell you what to believe, and we're not going

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Speaker 1: to even really tell you what we believe. So we're

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Speaker 1: just gonna explore this together in a very very it's

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Speaker 1: not secular way, and a very even handed will be

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Speaker 1: our attempt. There we go. That's our that's our goal.

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Speaker 1: Pardon my Yoda phrasing, but yeah, we'll try to be

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Speaker 1: even handed, is what I mean. Yeah, it's and you

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Speaker 1: guys are raising these fantastic and these disturbing points and

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Speaker 1: of course and stuff they want you to to know. We

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Speaker 1: clearly believe that, as Matt said, your beliefs are your own.

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Speaker 1: Is it is a private thing, and no one has

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Speaker 1: the right or the power to quote unquote make you

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Speaker 1: believe something else. It is up to you, it is

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Speaker 1: a personal decision. I love the point you bring up

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Speaker 1: about origins of religion there too, because you know, a

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Speaker 1: lot of as we'll see in it, really murky stuff

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Speaker 1: from the pale Paleolithic era, a lot of um, a

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Speaker 1: lot of very early religions were since they were essentially

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Speaker 1: trying to explain things. They were explaining things that were

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Speaker 1: common in a native environment. That's why you would see

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Speaker 1: variations in animal deities, right, they would be based on

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Speaker 1: the animals that are encountered in you know, in day

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Speaker 1: to day life. And so like, just like you said, Noel,

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Speaker 1: followers of different systems, belief systems find themselves in constant,

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Speaker 1: countless conflicts with followers of other systems, from ancient wars

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Speaker 1: to acts of persecution that continue in the modern day.

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Speaker 1: And in many cases, as we'll find and as you've

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Speaker 1: probably found yourself, fellow conspiracy realists, people of all sorts

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Speaker 1: of faith can live together in peace, you know what

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Speaker 1: I mean. Like your next door neighbor might be an atheist,

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Speaker 1: they might follow a religion you've never heard of, but

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Speaker 1: still they're probably going to be cool to you because

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Speaker 1: they're your neighbor. And it seems to me that this

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Speaker 1: is somewhat of a modern development that people are able

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Speaker 1: to relatively coexist. Certainly, there are still disputes based on religion,

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Speaker 1: not saying that's not a thing, but you know, all

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Speaker 1: in all, you don't see quite as many large scale

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Speaker 1: conflicts based exclusively on differences and religious beliefs. It. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it depends on where you go in every region. Right,

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Speaker 1: So this is the origin point for what we're exploring

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Speaker 1: today religions. As you said, you know, people of various

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Speaker 1: faiths have managed to live together in peace, but they

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Speaker 1: have also at various countless numerable points try to wipe

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Speaker 1: each other out. On today's episode, we're asking were any

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Speaker 1: of these attempts successful, Are there any forgotten religions, and

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Speaker 1: if so, how did they disappear? Here are the facts

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Speaker 1: to understand that. We have to first understand the state

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Speaker 1: of what we broadly call religion in the modern day.

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Speaker 1: Regardless of your own personal beliefs, you are probably pretty

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Speaker 1: well aware on some level of the world's most prominent religions.

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Speaker 1: If you look at the World Population Review and some

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Speaker 1: good stats. As of twenty Christianity is the is the

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Speaker 1: biggest one in terms of raw population two point three

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Speaker 1: eight billion followers, relatively closely followed by Islam with one

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Speaker 1: point nine one billion followers, and then Hinduism comes in

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Speaker 1: with around one point one six billion followers. Buddhism is

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Speaker 1: number four at five hundred and seven million followers, and

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Speaker 1: then we have what you could probably way term other,

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Speaker 1: but there is a loosely defined name for this category

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Speaker 1: known as folk religions, which comprises about four hundred and

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Speaker 1: thirty million followers. And that leaves a lot of people

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Speaker 1: in another category, which is like an A yeah, not applicable,

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Speaker 1: may not affiliated would be one of the ways those

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Speaker 1: are reported or or didn't respond consider considering oneself broadly

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Speaker 1: spiritual or you know other something like that. Yeah. This

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Speaker 1: These stats are tricky because for a couple of reasons. First,

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Speaker 1: each of these describes a very pretty broad category, you

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Speaker 1: know what I mean. A Protestant is not the same

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Speaker 1: as a Catholic, a Shiite is not the same as Sunni.

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Speaker 1: And over the course of history, there's no shortage of

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Speaker 1: members of the same overall belief system fighting amongst themselves.

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Speaker 1: You know, it can be it can be illuminating for

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Speaker 1: someone in the modern day to read read about the

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Speaker 1: various what are considered heresies disagreements of doctrine and Christianity,

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Speaker 1: because they may seem like a small deal to an outsider,

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Speaker 1: but they're a huge deal internally, and people did die

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Speaker 1: because of these disagreements. One person's heretic is another person's messiah. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: well put and this this leads us to um, this

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Speaker 1: leads us back to the idea of the commonality, right,

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Speaker 1: because if you're like, if you are, for instance, uh

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Speaker 1: not a not a follower of Christianity or an adherent

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Speaker 1: to some denomination of Christianity, then it may seem odd

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Speaker 1: to you that various denominations disagree or don't get along

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Speaker 1: because you think, well, you have a lot of you

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Speaker 1: have a lot of commonality, right you you're both uh,

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Speaker 1: you're all followers of this specific messiah. You all have

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Speaker 1: that you all have some verse of the same text. Right,

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Speaker 1: So why why won't you let each other coexist? And

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Speaker 1: I mean, even three of the world's most well known religions, Judaism, Islam,

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Speaker 1: and Christianity share a common lineage, and that common lineage

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Speaker 1: hasn't been enough to prevent conflicts. But the it's the

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Speaker 1: differences and observation, interpretation, and practice that lead to battle.

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Speaker 1: That you know, that is weird that Judaism didn't make

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Speaker 1: it into that World Population Review uh article or the

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Speaker 1: thing that we cited there. That's that's really interesting. It's

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Speaker 1: just a it's a numbers game. Yeah, I know, I

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Speaker 1: just I guess I imagined that there were higher, I

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Speaker 1: don't know, high enough numbers of followers of Judaism that

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Speaker 1: they would it would fit in there, But I guess. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The population, the world's Jewish population as of this older

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Speaker 1: status of was about fourteen li in total. Yeah, it's crazy.

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Speaker 1: It's it's it's like at the bottom of the list

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Speaker 1: above it. It's something called spirit is um. I don't

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Speaker 1: even know what that is. Hopefully it's it's what it

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Speaker 1: sounds like. I guess. I guess. Yeah. That's fascinating. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's very very fascinating. And it's so interesting too because um,

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Speaker 1: you know that that it is such a visible um

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Speaker 1: population as well, Like in terms if you go to

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Speaker 1: like certain areas of New York City or Los Angeles

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Speaker 1: or even here in Atlanta, Um, you know, orthodox Jewish population,

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Speaker 1: they definitely tend to cluster in certain neighborhoods and are

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Speaker 1: a very visible part of communities. So it's very interesting

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Speaker 1: that it would be such a low number. And with

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Speaker 1: people common spiritual beliefs or cultural background, we find that

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Speaker 1: they do tend These groups do tend to cluster together

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Speaker 1: because you have you have that sense of community. But

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Speaker 1: also the danger of the large numbers is that when

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Speaker 1: when a smaller belief system becomes a subject of persecution,

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Speaker 1: whether regionally or globally, terrible terrible things can happen. And

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Speaker 1: from an anthropological perspective, less than anybody think we're dumping

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Speaker 1: on religion. Overall, every single religious system you will ever

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Speaker 1: read about, you will ever practice, is itself a priceless

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Speaker 1: monument to the abilities of human belief, and it's a

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Speaker 1: it's a cultural milestone that cannot be replaced for For many,

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Speaker 1: many people, religion is the single most important aspect of

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Speaker 1: their life on earth, and so we we know that

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Speaker 1: it provides things that that people fuel they need, and

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Speaker 1: it's been doing so for a long time. Right now,

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Speaker 1: if you're trying to figure out what is the oldest

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Speaker 1: religion that is still around today, you would hear a

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Speaker 1: couple of different answers. Most folks will most scholars will

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Speaker 1: generally agree that Hinduism is the oldest extent religion. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's still you know, around in one as we record this,

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Speaker 1: though others will argue that there are some smaller religions

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Speaker 1: they continue today, smaller in terms of population size, like

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Speaker 1: a Zoroastrianism that is a strong contender for this position.

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Speaker 1: It's much less well known, and it's it's a fascinating story.

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Speaker 1: But let's maybe talk a little bit about Hinduism so

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Speaker 1: we can learn more about sort of the the oldest

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Speaker 1: guy in the restaurant of religion. It is interesting though

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Speaker 1: that it doesn't have like a founder that you can

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Speaker 1: point to. I've I've always wondered that, and there it

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Speaker 1: really isn't an answer. Um. So it's really hard to

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Speaker 1: trace its origin and the providence of its um. You know,

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Speaker 1: religious texts and doctrine. Um. It's quite unique in that

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Speaker 1: it's sort of like a amalgam of of of several

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Speaker 1: different traditions and philosophies, and again shares quite a few

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Speaker 1: commonalities with with Buddhism, for example. Um. But definitely wasn't

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Speaker 1: the only game in town, right um. And you know,

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Speaker 1: in terms of the most ancient of religions, Yeah, yeah, absolutely,

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Speaker 1: it's it's around today. Hinduism has many, many adherents. It

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Speaker 1: dates back to you know, like more than four thousand

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Speaker 1: years ago. Most of the most of the followers of

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Speaker 1: Hinduism do reside in India at this time, but while

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Speaker 1: it was around, you know, there were other parts of

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Speaker 1: the world that had completely different belief systems. Many of

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Speaker 1: those have been lost to history. But you're right, Nold.

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Speaker 1: Scholars spend a lot of time and effort trying to

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Speaker 1: pin down the beginning of what we would today recognize

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Speaker 1: as religion, and it becomes controversial so quickly. I gotta

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Speaker 1: tell you, guys, the coolest theory I heard um digging

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Speaker 1: into this. It concerns the idea of Paleolithic religions, meaning

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Speaker 1: belief systems that would have been around in two hundred

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Speaker 1: thousand to fifty thousand BC. It's hard to even understand

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Speaker 1: how long ago that was. But the coolest claim is

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Speaker 1: this that there were people alive during this time who

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Speaker 1: worshiped bears, bear worships. I think it's hard to hard

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Speaker 1: to wrap our heads around because it's also hard to

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Speaker 1: insert ourselves into the mindset of paleolithic you know humans, right,

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Speaker 1: Like it really points to the fact that or the

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Speaker 1: idea that religion is sort of this innate thing that

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Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily require like a large amount of intelligence. It

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Speaker 1: just is something that we sort of innately seek. Is

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Speaker 1: an explanation for why the sun comes up, or why

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Speaker 1: the thing does this, or why the herds, you know,

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Speaker 1: travel in this direction, and and look for things that

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Speaker 1: we can use magical thinking to kind of help us

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Speaker 1: solve day to day problems, especially at a time when

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Speaker 1: it would have been a very harsh life and very

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Speaker 1: you know, difficult to survive. Well, it's it's not for me.

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Speaker 1: It's not difficult to imagine and and and the only

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Speaker 1: reason why I say that is because if if you

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Speaker 1: try and just close your eyes, put yourself in the

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Speaker 1: mindset of a young child growing up in the Paleolithic era,

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Speaker 1: and you you know, you're born into whatever your family

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Speaker 1: situation looks like, whether it's one person to you know,

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Speaker 1: a hundred people living roughly together, especially if you're somewhere

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Speaker 1: where there are large mountains or there's you know, a

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Speaker 1: large open field where you're high enough up and you

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Speaker 1: can see enough of the planet immediately, no matter what

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Speaker 1: your beliefs are, what you're understanding is there's something that

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Speaker 1: says there's this is very big where I am is

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Speaker 1: very very big. There must be powerful things, something, some

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Speaker 1: things that created this. I think we're saying the same thing. Man.

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Speaker 1: I think I was just saying, like, I have a

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Speaker 1: hard time understanding the idea of an intellect of of

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Speaker 1: this kind of early you know, um human, But I

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Speaker 1: think right, the mind, even lacking the structure and the

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Speaker 1: framework to have more complex tenets of religion, just seeks

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Speaker 1: out the things that you're talking about. Kind of innate.

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Speaker 1: There's no scientific basis to it. And I'm glad you

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Speaker 1: guys are bringing this up because the human species did

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Speaker 1: something incredibly interesting from an evolutionary perspective. Uh. It began

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Speaker 1: to evolve in a way that prioritize thinking, abstract thought

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Speaker 1: the brain right, and the amount of energy the brain

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Speaker 1: takes is is pretty fascinating because it indicates that humans

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Speaker 1: spent a lot of time thinking right and and becoming toolmakers. Right.

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Speaker 1: The The original form of human hunting, by the way,

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Speaker 1: this kind of interesting is called persistence hunting. It's just

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Speaker 1: other animals evolved for quick burst of speed and then

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Speaker 1: humans just kind of duras selled it or wait, no, energizer,

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Speaker 1: bunny did right, They kept going and going and going.

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Speaker 1: So we've evolved to specific things. But one one thing

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Speaker 1: that we evolved to is very important is pattern recognition.

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Speaker 1: So I would argue, like, that's that's how they became

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Speaker 1: such good hunters. So I would argue that um pattern

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Speaker 1: recognition in a way is hardwired. Neurological imperative can explain

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Speaker 1: how early humans arrived at explanations for things that we

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Speaker 1: would think of as religion, because they were they literally

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Speaker 1: evolved to say not just oh, that happened again, but

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Speaker 1: to say, oh, that happened twice. I wonder if it's

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Speaker 1: going to happen a third time, and if it will

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Speaker 1: happen at the same time. Let me think about that, right,

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Speaker 1: just really quickly, think about the first winter that you

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Speaker 1: can remember, like if you're in that time, the first

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Speaker 1: winter that you live through that you can remember the

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Speaker 1: reverence that you would have for the heat coming from

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Speaker 1: the sun. At the times when heat is coming from

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Speaker 1: the sun and you know, you may not even correlate that,

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Speaker 1: oh I'm warmer now because of that bright thing up there.

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Speaker 1: If you don't have, you know, a language to describe

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Speaker 1: the things you can at least since I am warmer

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Speaker 1: when there's light on me and that thing is up

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Speaker 1: in the sky. Um. And then I can see at

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Speaker 1: night to hunt if I have to, or to do

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Speaker 1: you know things at night because that other thing is

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Speaker 1: in the sky or you know that thing in the

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Speaker 1: sky has changed now into this other thing, um, and

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Speaker 1: I can still see. You can just imagine that a

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Speaker 1: reverence gets built up, as you said, with the pattern recognition,

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Speaker 1: Ben there I can you can imagine them culminating and

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Speaker 1: you start connecting the dots like between big magic thing

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Speaker 1: in the sky too. Don't eat this mushroom. It'll kill

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Speaker 1: you because I saw something, you know what I mean,

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Speaker 1: Like they're there. There are these ways you start to

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Speaker 1: connect and like say, oh if this sun you know

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Speaker 1: thing represents this, then this other thing represents this and

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Speaker 1: I have to give it homage and respect it or

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Speaker 1: else I could actually literally die because like all my

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Speaker 1: brothers and sisters didn't you know what I mean. I

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Speaker 1: mean that recognition I think is crucial. Well, religion, I

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Speaker 1: mean is the precursor of modern science. It is analytical

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Speaker 1: right in its in its endeavor, and you know, I

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Speaker 1: know it can sound maybe a little bit cold or

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Speaker 1: soulless to to say, pattern recognition plays a big part.

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Speaker 1: We We do have another episode that you may want

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Speaker 1: to check out if you're interested in these kinds of conversations,

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Speaker 1: and that is uh, the the belief that psychoactive substances

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Speaker 1: may have played a role in early religions. Please do

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Speaker 1: check that out. There's some sand to it. Uh, But

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Speaker 1: I love the opposite. I mean, you know, as you know,

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Speaker 1: my kind hibernates during winter, So I don't personally know

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Speaker 1: the experience that you're described, I mean, Matt, but I

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Speaker 1: get it. I get where you're at. And and people,

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Speaker 1: did you know the things, the things that have power,

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Speaker 1: these inexplicable things, they must be explained is the human mind.

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Speaker 1: We seek to understand them. And so it makes sense

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Speaker 1: that some of the first gods would be things like

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Speaker 1: the spirits of the dead, um or avatars of powerful

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Speaker 1: natural elements like the sun, the moon, the ocean. And

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Speaker 1: then later social concepts like UH, contracts, friendship, UH war,

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Speaker 1: things like that, these inevitable parts of the human existence.

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Speaker 1: And now, I hate to say it, right as of now,

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Speaker 1: a lot of people say there's no evidence that humans

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Speaker 1: are Neanderthals really had something that would understand as religious

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Speaker 1: practice or at least as bear worship. I don't know

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Speaker 1: why I get stuck on that, but but yeah, But

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Speaker 1: also of this is pre like, there's not written documentation

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Speaker 1: of this time, right, so it is very very possible,

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Speaker 1: I would argue probable that there are things that are

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Speaker 1: religious beliefs. They just didn't make it to the to

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Speaker 1: modern history. Right. So as a result of that, we

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Speaker 1: see some of the first forgotten religions and we will

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Speaker 1: likely never know what they were. Uh. Instead, when we

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Speaker 1: search at this like point in the distant past, we

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Speaker 1: have to find physical evidence of practices that imply some

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Speaker 1: sort of belief system, which means, like, what is the

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Speaker 1: first time it looks like someone was buried on purpose?

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Speaker 1: You know that that indicates something, right, a fear perhaps

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Speaker 1: of the dead, or a belief in the afterlife, maybe

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Speaker 1: at the very least a reverence for life to some degree,

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Speaker 1: which sort of recognizes a to me, a spiritual layer

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Speaker 1: I think, or at least an unawareness of something like that.

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Speaker 1: What one was it? Ben? They covered the first buried

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Speaker 1: child I believe around what seventy eight thousand to seventy

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Speaker 1: four thousand BC E the earliest known Homo sapien burial

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Speaker 1: of a child at a cave site called Panga Yasadi

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Speaker 1: in modern day Kenya. It's and like the southeast of

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Speaker 1: Kenya uh and the earliest known purposeful burial of a

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Speaker 1: human being at all occurs a hundred thousand BC in

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Speaker 1: the Middle East. And of course countless other people were

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Speaker 1: probably being buried by their loved ones at this time.

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Speaker 1: Like we said, it's tough to know exactly what the logic,

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Speaker 1: but the process, the system was here, but there is

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Speaker 1: that that implies a belief system of some sort, and

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Speaker 1: those those early people, We're not the only cases. We

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Speaker 1: have to remember that humans are very, very very good

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Speaker 1: at losing things and breaking things and destroying things. We've

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Speaker 1: lost entire cities before. Religion is no exception. I can't

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Speaker 1: believe we got this far are without referencing R. E. M.

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Speaker 1: But we're all we're all kind of doing the r

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Speaker 1: M song as a species. Do you know what this?

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Speaker 1: I'm doing the dance. I'm doing the r M dance

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Speaker 1: right now. The Michael Stipe and the white you know,

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Speaker 1: collared shirt with a CP of tone back on that

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Speaker 1: video by the way absolutely fundamental nineties art rock video

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Speaker 1: that was copied ad nauseam. Just take a look what

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Speaker 1: watch Losing My Religion and then just think about the

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Speaker 1: nineties and the look of music videos that is like

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Speaker 1: the prototype. But well that's you in the spotlight. And uh.

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Speaker 1: And I appreciate that point because, as we'll see, a

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Speaker 1: lot of religions copy from one another as well or

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Speaker 1: evolve out of one another. But some haven't been simply forgotten.

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Speaker 1: Some religions, you see, have been lost or raised on purpose.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna pause for a quick word from our sponsor

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Speaker 1: and then we'll dive in. Here's where it gets crazy. Yes,

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Speaker 1: religions can and do disappear over time. Some even experience

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Speaker 1: of resurgence and reappear right they go underground because of persecution,

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Speaker 1: and then later they emerge when whatever insert regime here

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Speaker 1: has passed on. Belief is a durable, powerful thing. And

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Speaker 1: I would say, you know, it's interesting, and I was

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Speaker 1: trying to think aboutw to phrase this in the very

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Speaker 1: very early days of human beings, thinking along these lines,

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Speaker 1: it's almost like the concept of religion is itself a conspiracy.

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Speaker 1: You are finding hidden truths, you are encountering illumination and revelation.

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Speaker 1: And then on the flip side of that, religious persecution

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Speaker 1: is a genre of conspiracy all its own. It doesn't

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Speaker 1: make like, insert the name of any religion you wish,

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Speaker 1: and you will find at some point in history those

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Speaker 1: people have been persecuted for their beliefs. You also find

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Speaker 1: that people continue very much so to be persecuted in

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Speaker 1: the modern day in horrific ways. And it's it's weird

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Speaker 1: to think, you know, if you live in the US,

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Speaker 1: it's pretty strange to to imagine a president, whatever president

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Speaker 1: you wish, going on, you know, going on TV from

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Speaker 1: the Oval Office and saying like, all right, we've had

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Speaker 1: it had it up to here with the uh with

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Speaker 1: the Seventh day Adventist, you know, the Baptist. They can't

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Speaker 1: they can't have jobs anymore. They all have to pay

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Speaker 1: an extra tax and they all have to uh live

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Speaker 1: in Cincinnati. Alright, God bless America. Like, but that that

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Speaker 1: kind of stuff happened, Like versions of that stuff happened

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Speaker 1: all the time. People would be lower class, they would

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Speaker 1: have day to day restrictions on movement, social opportunities. This

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Speaker 1: still again continues in the modern day, including like who

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Speaker 1: they can marry, where they can have kids with. And

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Speaker 1: this also of course takes the takes the form of

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Speaker 1: violence up to an including genocide. This is a very

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Speaker 1: real thing. Thinking about it in that context, you can

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Speaker 1: imagine why some of the groups, the religions that we're

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Speaker 1: going to speak about today operated in secret. As you said,

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Speaker 1: it was they had to function in a conspiracy to

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Speaker 1: hold those beliefs because you had to be careful who

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Speaker 1: you talked to about your beliefs because of these dangers.

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Speaker 1: So a lot of these groups would, you know, rather

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Speaker 1: than having a temple, a large temple, or you know,

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Speaker 1: constructing a church of some sort, they would operate underground.

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Speaker 1: You know, they would build a temple under the ground

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Speaker 1: literally on purpose as a way to be able to

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Speaker 1: secret away to practice even during the you know, Roman

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Speaker 1: rule when Christianity was persecuted religion and they had to

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Speaker 1: mark you know, their meeting places or speaking code using

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Speaker 1: the fish symbol or whatever. Um they're they're various ways

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Speaker 1: of doing that. But yeah, I mean, what is now

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Speaker 1: the world's most prominent religion absolutely used to operate in

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Speaker 1: secret and underground or face you know, crucifixion. Yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: that's the exactly that's exactly the case. You know, each

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Speaker 1: and every act of religious persecution could be an episode

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Speaker 1: of forget an episode, it could be an entire series

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Speaker 1: all its own. And what we're gonna do is site

429
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:28,200
Speaker 1: several examples of religions that have come and then have gone.

430
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 1: And we won't have a comprehensive list of this because again,

431
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 1: there are just so many examples of people doing horrible

432
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:39,200
Speaker 1: things to each other and using rationalization for these acts

433
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:41,880
Speaker 1: they have been successful in the past. That's why we'll

434
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:47,040
Speaker 1: never know how many religions the species has lost. And additionally,

435
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:49,639
Speaker 1: this is kind of funny. I hope there's not me

436
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:52,040
Speaker 1: being like too soon about it, but this is kind

437
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:55,359
Speaker 1: of funny for so many to religions, a lot of

438
00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 1: our information comes from people who hated them, their regional

439
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 1: rivals there. And he's you run into this um with

440
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 1: you know, historical biographies of individuals to write, Like an

441
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:12,159
Speaker 1: emperor dies and then some archivist or story and a

442
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,320
Speaker 1: writer wants to what's the curry favor with the new

443
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 1: emperor and so they're they're like, hey, let me tell

444
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:21,399
Speaker 1: you some wild stuff about the guy before you I heard,

445
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 1: you know, he eats toes, I'm sure, I don't know,

446
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 1: or a conquering force comes through and wipes out the

447
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 1: record any written records you know that existed. So we

448
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 1: only know then from hearsay of people who rolled through

449
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 1: with you know, weapons, The victors go the spoils and

450
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 1: the right to tell the story, right, history is written

451
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 1: by the winners. It's uh, that's the one. It's a

452
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:52,960
Speaker 1: bug for some, a feature for others. But like for

453
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 1: one quick example of this, the Canaanite religion. If you

454
00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 1: have read the Bible, which is a pretty popular book,

455
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:02,240
Speaker 1: pretty easy to find a copy, then you'll hear mentions

456
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 1: of the k and Nite religion, and the authors of

457
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:08,840
Speaker 1: the Bible in those sections that mentioned it clearly do

458
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:12,800
Speaker 1: not They're not down with it. There's not like it's

459
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:18,880
Speaker 1: definitely not a like David Attenborough esque kind of observation.

460
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,920
Speaker 1: So so we were deloaded, is what you mean? Why

461
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 1: they they clearly feel away. Yes, yeah, there's there's some

462
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:31,200
Speaker 1: bias there and this this is something that we see

463
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 1: happen in other in other parts of the world and

464
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 1: other parts of time. So in the if we look

465
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 1: at the Middle East, this is a great example of

466
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 1: um a place that is a wash in religions that

467
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 1: the modern world largely forgot. Uh. It's the birthplace of civilization,

468
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 1: you know. So it makes sense logically that there would

469
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:56,480
Speaker 1: be an immence density of religious practice in the Middle East,

470
00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 1: and before the rise of Islam, the Arabic world had

471
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 1: this rich, diverse spiritual ecology, which I think is maybe

472
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:08,640
Speaker 1: a little bit of a pretentious term, but it works.

473
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 1: The majority of inhabitants in the region until about the

474
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 1: fourth century, practiced different forms of polytheism, which means a

475
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 1: spiritual belief with multiple gods as compared to something like Christianity,

476
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:25,840
Speaker 1: which is monotheistic. There's one God. And even as these

477
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:29,479
Speaker 1: growing populations, well they're they're there are three, there's one

478
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 1: in three forms. Yes, yeah, and some of us are

479
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 1: probably old enough to remember when the Holy Ghost turned

480
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 1: into the Holy Spirit right in the in the I

481
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 1: don't want to call them speeches, but you know what

482
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:45,240
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah, Well, and don't forget about

483
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 1: the Yes. Religious syncretism, which we also have an episode on.

484
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 1: Religious syncretism is the idea of mix taping religion. So

485
00:30:56,400 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 1: if you want, if you are proselytized for a specific

486
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 1: belief system. The Catholic Church was tremendously talented at this

487
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 1: for proselytizing for a specific belief system. It's really tough

488
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 1: to say to tell people, hey, that thing that you

489
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 1: and your ancestors believed, that's wrong. Do my thing. Instead.

490
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 1: The more clever, subtle way to do it is to say, hey,

491
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:24,960
Speaker 1: that you know that God you are worshiping from, you know,

492
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 1: the mountain, from the river or whatever, that's actually this

493
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:34,240
Speaker 1: person in my belief system. So we're already we're agreeing.

494
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:37,160
Speaker 1: Let me just tell you more about what you already believe.

495
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,480
Speaker 1: I mean, that is your thing is just a it's

496
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:44,200
Speaker 1: a it's a smaller thing apart over here. That's really

497
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 1: this larger thing that I'm going to tell you. I

498
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 1: can show you the Yeah, it's like it's but it's

499
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 1: way less chilled than that because they're also doing this.

500
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:58,120
Speaker 1: But like while they're doing this, they're using this religious

501
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 1: difference as a rationalist Asian to enslave, to torture, to

502
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 1: assault and murder people. So it's it gets ugly real quick.

503
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:09,000
Speaker 1: But but in the Middle East you have all these

504
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:15,320
Speaker 1: regional polytheistic practices. People have deities that are kind of

505
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 1: local to the area, and this continued even as populations

506
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 1: of people practicing Judaism and Christianity began to develop into

507
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 1: significant minorities. UH. One commonality that these pre Islamic belief

508
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:33,160
Speaker 1: systems had was the belief in a chief God, not

509
00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:37,520
Speaker 1: a not a single god overall, but like one God

510
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,600
Speaker 1: above the rest of the gods, whose name was hubald

511
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 1: h g B A L spelled a couple different ways

512
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:45,560
Speaker 1: sometimes and in fact, it might surprise people know the

513
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 1: Kabba in Mecca actually was once a a repository for

514
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 1: for representations of many of these gods, hundreds of different gods.

515
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 1: Their images were housed in there in that structure in Mecca.

516
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:08,440
Speaker 1: And then according to Islam Uh, this structure was originally

517
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:13,200
Speaker 1: built by the biblical Abraham, but later people after his

518
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 1: time people went in and put those other idols inside,

519
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 1: and then when the prophet of Islam, the prophet Mohammed,

520
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:25,720
Speaker 1: gained control of the structure, he expelled those idols. So

521
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 1: there's clearly even in that story, there's clearly like an

522
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:33,560
Speaker 1: acknowledgement that other belief systems exist, but they are not

523
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 1: the true belief system and they must therefore be excised

524
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:39,600
Speaker 1: from society. Man, you're gonna tear down that golden calf,

525
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 1: all those idols, get rid of them. Even that big

526
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:46,959
Speaker 1: bull outside of Wall Street. I mean, what you mean,

527
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 1: what you mean with the little girl facing him off?

528
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 1: I don't know what you're talking about, or well, at

529
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:55,880
Speaker 1: least at least that bull. I don't think. I don't

530
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 1: think they burned people in it yet, which is the

531
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 1: one of the accusations, right for the bull worshipers. But

532
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:04,240
Speaker 1: like we could go, we could see examples of this

533
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:07,680
Speaker 1: all the time, because history really is a palambsessed It's

534
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:12,759
Speaker 1: written over itself repeatedly. So like what what about Europe? Right,

535
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:16,440
Speaker 1: Europe is considered now, as we'll see, Europe is considered

536
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:19,360
Speaker 1: increasingly secular. But for a long time, it was, like

537
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:25,360
Speaker 1: the um, a huge economic force for Christianity and for

538
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:30,800
Speaker 1: spreading various belief systems of Christianity. But it wasn't always

539
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:34,239
Speaker 1: the case. And then you had all sorts of flavors

540
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 1: of Celtic religions. You had druids and various forms of

541
00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:44,239
Speaker 1: regional paganism that you know, had very specific pantheons of

542
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:47,919
Speaker 1: gods and deities that they would worship that were very

543
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:53,400
Speaker 1: regionally specific and not necessarily a universal language or or

544
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:55,360
Speaker 1: group of gods that that everyone knew about. I mean,

545
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,520
Speaker 1: there certainly were the big ones um, you know, for example,

546
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 1: let's say, worshiping of um ancient Roman deities like like

547
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:06,759
Speaker 1: Pan or certain personifications of nature. I think paganism has

548
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:08,680
Speaker 1: always been fascinating to all of us, and it's also

549
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 1: very misunderstood and as often I think, misconstrued with devil

550
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 1: worship or various you know, forms of witchcraft, for example.

551
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:20,480
Speaker 1: But it really is its own thing, Yeah, very much so. Yeah,

552
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:27,320
Speaker 1: it's a it's really it's the term itself, which comes

553
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 1: from It's funny because pagan isn't, like you said, is

554
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:35,680
Speaker 1: associated sometimes with devil worship quote unquote, but really the

555
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:42,439
Speaker 1: term edomologically means rural. It's like country people, that's that's

556
00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:45,800
Speaker 1: what That's what it was originally meant, and it was

557
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 1: it was a term used by practitioners of early Christianity

558
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 1: to apply to anybody who was polytheistic beliefs in the

559
00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:01,280
Speaker 1: Roman Empire. They were like, okay, that's if you're anything

560
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 1: that's not a Christian, you're you're a pagan, right, And

561
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:09,719
Speaker 1: this this is super unfair to these as you said, well,

562
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:13,759
Speaker 1: very specific regional religions that are not you know, they're

563
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:17,840
Speaker 1: not united by a common language, often not united by

564
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 1: a common culture. They exist on their own. Uh. And

565
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:23,440
Speaker 1: then and I would I'm sorry, Ben, I don't want

566
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 1: to cut you off, but I would just say the

567
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:29,160
Speaker 1: connection to nature with some of those religious beliefs were

568
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:32,560
Speaker 1: it was very strong, and possibly because of the rural

569
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 1: nature of their lifestyle. The people who followed many of

570
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:40,960
Speaker 1: these religions, like the harvest was very important and you

571
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:43,879
Speaker 1: know it was worthy of worshiping a deity that would

572
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:48,040
Speaker 1: help your harvest out. Uh. I don't know. I'm just

573
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:51,359
Speaker 1: wanted to make that point because again, we're everybody we're

574
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:56,880
Speaker 1: talking about is intelligent. They're highly intelligent, their logical rational actors.

575
00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:59,759
Speaker 1: So they're explaining the world in the best way they

576
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:03,800
Speaker 1: and and other people just disagree with their explanations in

577
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:06,279
Speaker 1: a very violent way. If you if you want to

578
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:09,480
Speaker 1: get a modern look this tangential. But if you want

579
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:15,399
Speaker 1: to get a modern look at uh at pagan inspired art,

580
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:19,600
Speaker 1: I would highly recommend spending some time on YouTube checking

581
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 1: out Heal Long Job I'm pronouncing correctly. They're a folk

582
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:28,640
Speaker 1: music band from Germany and parts of northern Europe. I'm

583
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:30,440
Speaker 1: gonna send you guys a clip if you haven't seen

584
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:33,279
Speaker 1: them yet. It's it's awesome, It's the whole nine. I

585
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 1: can't recommend it enough. Oh, I can't wait to check

586
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:39,040
Speaker 1: it out another you know, you're right in the we

587
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:42,319
Speaker 1: caviat of this whole discussion from the start and saying that, yeah,

588
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:46,640
Speaker 1: we don't have bulleted lists for all of these categories

589
00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:50,239
Speaker 1: because some of these things were successfully eradicated. Um. But

590
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:52,399
Speaker 1: one that I think is interesting, and I think it's

591
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:54,080
Speaker 1: something that will hit a cord with all three of us,

592
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:58,960
Speaker 1: is uh the snake god glican Um, which is actively

593
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:03,160
Speaker 1: promoted and worshiped by the comic book writer Alan Moore,

594
00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:06,239
Speaker 1: who fancies himself a bit of of a of a

595
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:09,319
Speaker 1: magician um, and he wears a ring on his hand

596
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,560
Speaker 1: that is this kind of like intertwined snake um you

597
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:16,440
Speaker 1: know image It almost looks like Oran from the Never

598
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:20,440
Speaker 1: Ending story series the Seal, the metal thing that's on

599
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:25,440
Speaker 1: the book. Um. But yeah, glican was a pagan deity

600
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:28,400
Speaker 1: that was worshiped and it was a cult that was

601
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:33,400
Speaker 1: very um influential when the Romans were trying desperately to

602
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:36,279
Speaker 1: eradicate all of these types of religions, and they were

603
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:40,239
Speaker 1: relatively successful in being able to continue their traditions and

604
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:43,799
Speaker 1: staying underground um. And obviously that has persevered today, even

605
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:46,360
Speaker 1: if it's not super mainstream at all. And it's funny

606
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:49,840
Speaker 1: because Alan Moore actually refers to this, it's almost like

607
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:52,600
Speaker 1: he's doing it as a gag or like kind of

608
00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:56,440
Speaker 1: like a satire, satirical form of religion because he refers

609
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 1: to it as a hoax deity. But we do know

610
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:02,080
Speaker 1: there's evidence like in ancient Macedonia even you know of

611
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:06,520
Speaker 1: uh cults groups rather the term cult is so loaded um.

612
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:07,880
Speaker 1: But you know I can refer to I guess a

613
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:12,320
Speaker 1: small group of devoted followers that were particular individual or

614
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:16,400
Speaker 1: deity um, and of of these individuals actually worshiping a

615
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:20,800
Speaker 1: real serpent that represented this uh, this this god liken.

616
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:24,439
Speaker 1: So you know, Alan Moore, whatever his intentions are, whether

617
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:27,120
Speaker 1: tongue in cheek or sincere, he is keeping it alive

618
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:29,720
Speaker 1: and it has made enough of an impact and stuck

619
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:33,280
Speaker 1: around long enough in the historical record to be around today.

620
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:35,880
Speaker 1: So I guess they did something right and not becoming

621
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:39,279
Speaker 1: one of those casualties that we're talking about today. And

622
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:45,480
Speaker 1: sometimes um people who common later generations will use whatever

623
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:52,799
Speaker 1: scant resources or other documents are available to resurrect an

624
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 1: ancient religion. And this was really common in the days

625
00:39:56,600 --> 00:40:00,600
Speaker 1: of Theosophy and the age of spiritualism. People would have

626
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:03,839
Speaker 1: these discoveries or these revelations and they would say, I'm

627
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 1: not introducing a new religion, I'm bringing the old one back,

628
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:10,880
Speaker 1: you know. Uh, this this was an attempt to in

629
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:15,879
Speaker 1: many cases acquire some sort of street cred in a way.

630
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:18,759
Speaker 1: But but right, and that's that's an excellent example of

631
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:22,120
Speaker 1: a really common practice. What we're saying is that Europe,

632
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:27,480
Speaker 1: the European continent at this time, was incredibly varied, right,

633
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:32,520
Speaker 1: and there wasn't the sort of religious uniformity that Christianity

634
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:37,440
Speaker 1: would later seek to impose and largely successfully. And that's

635
00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 1: kind of ironic itself, right, because as you were called,

636
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:44,880
Speaker 1: Christianity itself was persecuted throughout most of the history of

637
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:47,760
Speaker 1: the Roman Empire. They were they were the bad guys.

638
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:51,040
Speaker 1: And uh, while we're on the subject of cults, one

639
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:54,880
Speaker 1: thing that's interesting. You can see definitions of tactics that

640
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:58,239
Speaker 1: modern cults use but if we're talking about this, maybe

641
00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:01,680
Speaker 1: are the best way to define that is by um

642
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:06,640
Speaker 1: a religion practiced in secret, right, that has mysteries, mysteries

643
00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:09,839
Speaker 1: that are unavailable to the uninitiated. And this is where

644
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:16,640
Speaker 1: we go to some more. I am so compelled with these,

645
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:22,640
Speaker 1: so interested in Manicheism and mythrayism. One of the extreme

646
00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:27,920
Speaker 1: examples of religious persecution occurs with this first one, Manicheism,

647
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:34,280
Speaker 1: founded in third century A d That this dualistic cosmology,

648
00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:38,640
Speaker 1: So life, your existence about two things, a struggle between

649
00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 1: the spiritual world of light that's the good side, and

650
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:46,760
Speaker 1: the evil material world of darkness. This religion went viral

651
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:51,080
Speaker 1: kind of and you know these belief inherently is mametic, right,

652
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 1: So this religion spread like wildfire, but it was successfully

653
00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:59,279
Speaker 1: stamped out by the Roman Empire. And right now as

654
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:02,520
Speaker 1: we record, there's an interesting plot twist because they are

655
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:07,120
Speaker 1: growing rumors that some form of Manicheism may persist in

656
00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:10,759
Speaker 1: nice lated areas of China. There's not enough research out

657
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:15,480
Speaker 1: there to say for sure yet. But again, belief powerful, durable,

658
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:18,399
Speaker 1: hard to kill, and it's it's a similar becais our Astrianism.

659
00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:22,520
Speaker 1: I believe um in that it and also, I guess gnosticism,

660
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:25,440
Speaker 1: where it has its own mythology, then that is very

661
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 1: unique to the belief um and its own kind of

662
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:31,520
Speaker 1: innate philosophy. I mean, you know, we've done a whole

663
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:34,320
Speaker 1: episode I believe with Joe McCormick a gnosticism um, and

664
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:39,120
Speaker 1: it's sort of interesting. Twists on deities we might recognize,

665
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:42,600
Speaker 1: you know, from other religions. But the idea of having

666
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:46,480
Speaker 1: a whole mythology that's unique to a belief system, I

667
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:49,200
Speaker 1: think is is very fascinating, even if there are overlaps

668
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:52,440
Speaker 1: and especially key points that are very similar between the

669
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:54,480
Speaker 1: different beliefs. But yeah, it looks like the Romans that

670
00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:57,000
Speaker 1: have fine job of stamping this one out. Fascinating that

671
00:42:57,040 --> 00:43:02,160
Speaker 1: it would still be around in certain need China, maybe right,

672
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:06,759
Speaker 1: maybe yeah. And the Astrionism quick note there um was

673
00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:11,280
Speaker 1: was in play at this time. Azorastrianism had more followers

674
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:16,120
Speaker 1: in terms of raw numbers, but Menicheism was h could

675
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:19,040
Speaker 1: be for a time. It was arguably more successful because

676
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:21,800
Speaker 1: it spread further, you know, made it out to China,

677
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:26,640
Speaker 1: and then it also counted among its members some high

678
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:31,319
Speaker 1: ranking political figures. Guys. I I don't I think that's

679
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:35,080
Speaker 1: really important to high ranking political figures because that leads

680
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:40,480
Speaker 1: right into some of my personal beliefs about Mythraism. But

681
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:44,719
Speaker 1: I okay, I we'll bring it up here. Remind me

682
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:48,440
Speaker 1: to talk about something before we finished talking about Mythriism. Okay, okay,

683
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:52,319
Speaker 1: all right, you got it. Let's let's go to Mythraism. So, uh,

684
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:55,320
Speaker 1: myth Reism is a mystery religion. It was a mystery

685
00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:57,560
Speaker 1: of religion again that you know, and it's it's a

686
00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:01,960
Speaker 1: cult because they practiced in secret, and you were if

687
00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:06,040
Speaker 1: you were not a follower, a member of Mythraism, you

688
00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:10,080
Speaker 1: weren't going into that underground temple and secret. Then you

689
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:12,920
Speaker 1: wouldn't know what their rituals were. You weren't supposed to

690
00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:17,160
Speaker 1: h they do. You know. They worshiped a deity damed Mithriss,

691
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:20,719
Speaker 1: which is a Cadian for contract, and Mythriss was the

692
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:24,560
Speaker 1: god of friendship, order and contract. These books were super

693
00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:29,359
Speaker 1: super duper into secrecy. Uh. This cult begins um late

694
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:34,279
Speaker 1: first century and it spreads from the Italian peninsula to

695
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:38,719
Speaker 1: border regions all and then all across the Roman Empire.

696
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:43,040
Speaker 1: Right now, there are no written narratives or theology from

697
00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:48,560
Speaker 1: the religion itself. It's still though the Roman Empire, right,

698
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:52,520
Speaker 1: they also wanted to stamp out things that they thought

699
00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:57,440
Speaker 1: were subversive or danger to the status quo and mythriism.

700
00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:00,759
Speaker 1: For a time, I've kind of had a it was

701
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:06,279
Speaker 1: kind of an exception because the followers of Mithraism supported

702
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:09,759
Speaker 1: the Roman Empire and the people of power, you know,

703
00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:13,760
Speaker 1: and although they conspired, they were you know, in general,

704
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:18,319
Speaker 1: they were seen as not a subversive force. You will

705
00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:23,360
Speaker 1: find videos across the Internet and writings that say the

706
00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:27,520
Speaker 1: Cult of Mithress exists today. And I believe it's because

707
00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:32,920
Speaker 1: of that connection to friendship, contract and order, because it

708
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:38,960
Speaker 1: really does speak to big business essentially to large markets

709
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:44,360
Speaker 1: working together. Um. You can see how the beliefs that

710
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:47,239
Speaker 1: we know of that the cult of Mrs Mithress had

711
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:52,520
Speaker 1: would translate really well to a group of people working

712
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:56,279
Speaker 1: together to build empires, to like the Roman Empire, to

713
00:45:56,440 --> 00:46:03,120
Speaker 1: build um monetary empire. You can see why this belief,

714
00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:06,360
Speaker 1: at least in the modern age, that this group persists.

715
00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:09,239
Speaker 1: You can see you can see why people would I

716
00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:12,400
Speaker 1: think that maybe because was that the thing we're supposed

717
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:15,080
Speaker 1: to remind you to talk about. Uh No, that's okay. Well,

718
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:17,640
Speaker 1: I know we're we're running along here already. The thing

719
00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:19,840
Speaker 1: I wanted to talk about that many of these religions,

720
00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:23,800
Speaker 1: like Manicheism that we were talking about there, show this

721
00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:29,040
Speaker 1: dualism that I think is really fascinating between So you've

722
00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:30,839
Speaker 1: got the light in the dark right that you can

723
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:33,279
Speaker 1: see that mirrored, and a lot of religions even once

724
00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:39,279
Speaker 1: it exists today, Well, there's there's some in here, not

725
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:41,880
Speaker 1: necessarily these two that we're talking about right now, but

726
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:45,480
Speaker 1: there's some of these that have been lost that supposedly

727
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:52,120
Speaker 1: had a tethering between the plane of matter, this physical

728
00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:56,680
Speaker 1: plane and a spiritual plane, where there were two versions

729
00:46:56,760 --> 00:47:01,239
Speaker 1: of you, of an individual that existed simultane eneously, uh,

730
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:09,520
Speaker 1: in both planes, essentially multiverse kind of situation almost for Meliever, Yeah,

731
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:13,800
Speaker 1: for me, it's more it's closer to simulation theory, almost

732
00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:18,200
Speaker 1: like there's a version of you or an intelligence that

733
00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:20,640
Speaker 1: is a part of you that exists on some other

734
00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:24,120
Speaker 1: plane that manipulates this one, or that this one manipulates

735
00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:27,200
Speaker 1: that one. I don't know, it's just fascinating to me.

736
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:31,320
Speaker 1: Before we agreed, mat before we go to break, I

737
00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:37,440
Speaker 1: gotta ask you, Matrix four, what's your position Matrix two

738
00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:40,600
Speaker 1: or three weren't that great in my opinions so well,

739
00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:42,279
Speaker 1: so I don't know. Maybe maybe it'll be cool a

740
00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:45,920
Speaker 1: long times past. I hope it's good. I am purposefully

741
00:47:46,239 --> 00:47:50,759
Speaker 1: removing myself from any and all materials coming out about it,

742
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:55,319
Speaker 1: and I will watch it when it is released. I'll

743
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:58,040
Speaker 1: tell you after that last thing, last thing. Sorry, I

744
00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:00,399
Speaker 1: know we keep having the last last things? Me thrist

745
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:03,640
Speaker 1: Do you think there's any connection to the mystical material

746
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:06,960
Speaker 1: and the Lord of the Rings books? Me thrill the

747
00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:11,840
Speaker 1: like it's like a chain mail that can't be penetrated. Possibly,

748
00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:16,680
Speaker 1: possibly have to ask a Tolkien scholar, but maybe we

749
00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:21,719
Speaker 1: should ask Stephen Colbert. Probably yeah, yeah, Okay, well, let's

750
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:24,160
Speaker 1: let's take a let's pause for word from our sponsors.

751
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:27,080
Speaker 1: I'll text Steve uh, and then we'll come back if

752
00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:36,000
Speaker 1: if he gives us an update. All right, we have returned,

753
00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:40,400
Speaker 1: uh Steve. Steve texted me and just like a weird emoji.

754
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:43,880
Speaker 1: So I'm gonna have to dig dig into Tolkien to

755
00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:47,600
Speaker 1: figure out the etymology there. But he did, you know,

756
00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:50,359
Speaker 1: he he did spend a lot of time working as

757
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:53,280
Speaker 1: a linguist, you know, in the construction of those worlds,

758
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:55,640
Speaker 1: So it wouldn't be surprised if there are echoes. Uh.

759
00:48:56,440 --> 00:48:59,480
Speaker 1: This this is the big moment here. We've talked a

760
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:03,200
Speaker 1: lot of out various religious conflicts. We've talked about how

761
00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:07,120
Speaker 1: religions get suppressed. We've talked about how some religions can

762
00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:11,680
Speaker 1: suppress others, or at least people who claim to practice

763
00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:14,719
Speaker 1: those religions will use a religion as an excuse to

764
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:19,120
Speaker 1: oppress other people. But we promised you we would talk

765
00:49:19,120 --> 00:49:23,360
Speaker 1: about times where religions have been erased. This is almost

766
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:26,960
Speaker 1: a terrible now, it's it's a story that I think

767
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:31,520
Speaker 1: we all enjoy. Uh, it's fascinating. It happened long enough

768
00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:34,040
Speaker 1: ago that we can laugh at the hubris of it.

769
00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:40,239
Speaker 1: But way back in the day, Egypt straight up erased

770
00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:46,200
Speaker 1: an entire religion successfully and purposely. Well not all the

771
00:49:46,239 --> 00:49:49,560
Speaker 1: way successfully, because we know about it today, but they

772
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:51,960
Speaker 1: did their best, and they did a really good job.

773
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:55,480
Speaker 1: It's something called aton is um A T E n

774
00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:58,439
Speaker 1: I s M. It's a religion centered on a sun

775
00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:05,360
Speaker 1: god named Aton. It was debatably monotheistic, but it's probably

776
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:11,680
Speaker 1: better to say the followers of this belief system, followers

777
00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:15,279
Speaker 1: of attanis um believe that other gods could exist or

778
00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:17,640
Speaker 1: were believed to exist, but that Atton is Um and

779
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:21,240
Speaker 1: Atton himself was, you know, the main deal, the primary

780
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:26,160
Speaker 1: spiritual entree. It was egypt state religion for just twenty

781
00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:29,600
Speaker 1: years in the fourteenth century b C. And it's all

782
00:50:29,719 --> 00:50:35,920
Speaker 1: because of this pharaoh named Akatan. He over his reign,

783
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:41,560
Speaker 1: he create, he founded this cult himself. It was kind

784
00:50:41,640 --> 00:50:44,359
Speaker 1: of about Otten, but it was really all about how

785
00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:48,960
Speaker 1: important he was in the religion. It's very self serving

786
00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:53,480
Speaker 1: religion because, um, you know how in the Catholic belief system,

787
00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:58,879
Speaker 1: the clergy is your connection to God. Right, that's big

788
00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:03,600
Speaker 1: doctrinal different between some other denominations in Christianity and Catholicism.

789
00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:08,480
Speaker 1: In this belief system, in this cult, there was only

790
00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:13,480
Speaker 1: one guy who could talk to God, a single, single conduit,

791
00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:15,800
Speaker 1: and he lived at the top of that giant building.

792
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:19,880
Speaker 1: But you know, he was closer to the heavens or whatever.

793
00:51:20,239 --> 00:51:21,680
Speaker 1: But yeah, you can totally see how it was a

794
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:24,560
Speaker 1: bit self serving. Even what if it was the real

795
00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:27,960
Speaker 1: what if auton Issm was the real, true religion, that

796
00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:34,080
Speaker 1: was the one boat on that one matt because Uh

797
00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:39,960
Speaker 1: as soon as he died later rulers with the support

798
00:51:40,040 --> 00:51:44,320
Speaker 1: of the people through this stuff in the garbage. You know.

799
00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:47,480
Speaker 1: It's after he passed away, his cult enters a decline,

800
00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:53,120
Speaker 1: gradually at first, but then pretty at a pretty hectic pace.

801
00:51:53,320 --> 00:51:57,160
Speaker 1: The pre existing beliefs returned because he's fighting against thousands

802
00:51:57,160 --> 00:52:00,600
Speaker 1: of years of tradition and culture. And we were talking

803
00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:03,239
Speaker 1: off air about this, but it reminds me of like

804
00:52:04,520 --> 00:52:07,279
Speaker 1: Coke two or New Coke when that came out in

805
00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:09,759
Speaker 1: the eighties. There's a conspiracy about that as well. I

806
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:11,600
Speaker 1: don't know if you guys have heard this that apparently

807
00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:15,080
Speaker 1: was made to distract people from changing the recipe of

808
00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:20,080
Speaker 1: original Coca cola. Not confirmed yet, but anyway, this guy's

809
00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:25,880
Speaker 1: move was tremendously unpopular. Folks. Imagine, imagine you have, uh,

810
00:52:26,120 --> 00:52:28,520
Speaker 1: you have friends that you get together with and you like,

811
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:31,280
Speaker 1: you play a game every week. You could be Magic

812
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:33,719
Speaker 1: the Gathering. Maybe you have like a jam band, or

813
00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:37,839
Speaker 1: maybe you have like um Dungeons and Dragons or board

814
00:52:37,880 --> 00:52:39,920
Speaker 1: get whatever you know, c O D. It doesn't matter.

815
00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:42,520
Speaker 1: You get together every week. And then one of the

816
00:52:42,600 --> 00:52:46,560
Speaker 1: people you get together with every week, uh, is they say,

817
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:49,920
Speaker 1: I've got a new idea. We're gonna play a game

818
00:52:51,520 --> 00:52:54,480
Speaker 1: it's it's about me, and I'm the only person who

819
00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:58,000
Speaker 1: can win. Okay, We're all gonna play this game. The

820
00:52:58,160 --> 00:53:01,200
Speaker 1: minute they're gone, you you got will be like, that's wacky,

821
00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:03,960
Speaker 1: what is wrong with this person? And this guy only

822
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:06,040
Speaker 1: got away with it because he was pharaoh, you know,

823
00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:09,680
Speaker 1: because he was the pharaoh at the time. So as

824
00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:12,359
Speaker 1: soon as like pretty much as soon as he's dead,

825
00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:18,719
Speaker 1: the coming pharaoh's destroy temples, all the temples they are

826
00:53:18,760 --> 00:53:20,920
Speaker 1: built to this guy, or most of them, and they

827
00:53:21,120 --> 00:53:24,320
Speaker 1: don't just destroy them. They take the building blocks and

828
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:28,000
Speaker 1: they use it in other construction projects, and they take

829
00:53:28,120 --> 00:53:30,160
Speaker 1: some of that. They take some of those blocks and

830
00:53:30,200 --> 00:53:33,640
Speaker 1: they build new temples to the god Amun, who was

831
00:53:33,800 --> 00:53:36,320
Speaker 1: the god they liked the whole time that this pharaoh

832
00:53:36,520 --> 00:53:42,560
Speaker 1: was making them cosmologically kiss his butt a man. Yeah,

833
00:53:42,640 --> 00:53:45,560
Speaker 1: well not that you know. It's not like, uh, Pharonic

834
00:53:45,719 --> 00:53:49,240
Speaker 1: rule was anything like a bastion for democracy or something.

835
00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:52,520
Speaker 1: This is he's an interesting example. But don't think other

836
00:53:52,680 --> 00:53:55,480
Speaker 1: other pharaohs were all, you know, heroes in comparison, right,

837
00:53:55,960 --> 00:53:57,880
Speaker 1: This is really weird that you could have like the

838
00:53:58,000 --> 00:54:01,520
Speaker 1: hutzpah of that, you know. Yeah, no, I agree, But

839
00:54:01,680 --> 00:54:07,080
Speaker 1: if I've learned anything from Stargate, It's it's that you know,

840
00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:12,360
Speaker 1: Alma Alma Rah is an extraterrestrial and uh has a

841
00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:15,320
Speaker 1: cool spaceship. Is this the star Gate the series or

842
00:54:15,360 --> 00:54:21,320
Speaker 1: Stargate the singular motion picture? Yeah? It was good. It

843
00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:23,239
Speaker 1: was good, yeah, with the guy from the Crying Game

844
00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:26,719
Speaker 1: in it. But in short, you know what happened is

845
00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:29,839
Speaker 1: that it seems the people at the time weren't really

846
00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:35,680
Speaker 1: digging this concept. And even though they didn't, even though

847
00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:39,200
Speaker 1: they weren't into it, you'll find some scholars that conjecture

848
00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:44,480
Speaker 1: the rough concept of one god over others. Later even

849
00:54:44,520 --> 00:54:48,319
Speaker 1: the just the concept of monotheism, a single god uh

850
00:54:48,440 --> 00:54:51,480
Speaker 1: to rule them all. Uh. This concept may have gone

851
00:54:51,520 --> 00:54:55,640
Speaker 1: on to influence other later religions, so in a way,

852
00:54:55,920 --> 00:54:59,919
Speaker 1: the shadow of Otten may still be extant on the Earth.

853
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:01,480
Speaker 1: And I just wanted to bring something up. I was

854
00:55:01,520 --> 00:55:03,640
Speaker 1: considering asking to have it taken out, but I think

855
00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:05,840
Speaker 1: I'm I'm not. At the top of the show, I

856
00:55:06,080 --> 00:55:08,920
Speaker 1: mentioned how hey, at least things are a little better now.

857
00:55:09,080 --> 00:55:11,799
Speaker 1: People don't like beef over religion as much as they

858
00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:15,080
Speaker 1: used to. And that's certainly, I think partially true, but

859
00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:17,160
Speaker 1: it's also what I mean. We're talking about things that

860
00:55:17,239 --> 00:55:19,839
Speaker 1: have happened in two thousand eleven, you know, I mean

861
00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:23,919
Speaker 1: with with Isis trying to you know, literally murder people

862
00:55:24,040 --> 00:55:27,280
Speaker 1: for not converting to Islam, and obviously the conflict between

863
00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:29,839
Speaker 1: the Israelis and the Palestinians. All these things are very

864
00:55:29,960 --> 00:55:34,160
Speaker 1: very real. Maybe they're more isolated and smaller groups, but

865
00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:38,320
Speaker 1: they're very much still is a conflict between people of

866
00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:41,400
Speaker 1: different faiths. And the question that I think that leads

867
00:55:41,440 --> 00:55:45,600
Speaker 1: to is are there religions that exist now? The Big

868
00:55:45,719 --> 00:55:48,279
Speaker 1: five or whatever? However many there were I think I

869
00:55:48,360 --> 00:55:50,719
Speaker 1: think it was four plus other on a long enough

870
00:55:50,760 --> 00:55:53,839
Speaker 1: timeline that might be wiped out in the future. Yeah,

871
00:55:54,120 --> 00:55:59,040
Speaker 1: will modern religions die out the Again, We've just got

872
00:55:59,120 --> 00:56:02,239
Speaker 1: a few examples illustrating a much larger concept. But the

873
00:56:02,360 --> 00:56:07,160
Speaker 1: answer is conclusively, Yes, some religions have died out. Yes,

874
00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:10,239
Speaker 1: some have been the victims of conspiracy and they have

875
00:56:10,480 --> 00:56:14,400
Speaker 1: been purposely raised from the earth. But the process may

876
00:56:14,480 --> 00:56:18,880
Speaker 1: continue today in two ways. Uh. One is one is

877
00:56:18,960 --> 00:56:21,080
Speaker 1: kind of new. Let's talk with about the new one.

878
00:56:21,239 --> 00:56:25,160
Speaker 1: In two thousand eleven, the BBC reported on a study

879
00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:29,800
Speaker 1: or several studies that said nine countries seem set to

880
00:56:30,440 --> 00:56:34,160
Speaker 1: overall say goodbye to religion and become increasingly secular. Not

881
00:56:34,360 --> 00:56:38,320
Speaker 1: by persecuting religious people. It's just more and more residents

882
00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:42,160
Speaker 1: of those countries or less, it's less and less of

883
00:56:42,160 --> 00:56:44,680
Speaker 1: an important part of their life. You know. They're they're

884
00:56:44,680 --> 00:56:48,480
Speaker 1: the people who might say, uh, you know, I I'll

885
00:56:48,760 --> 00:56:53,040
Speaker 1: go to I'll go to church or temple if it's

886
00:56:53,040 --> 00:56:55,680
Speaker 1: a big holiday and my family makes me. But I

887
00:56:55,760 --> 00:56:58,719
Speaker 1: don't think about it every day. Uh. Interesting quote I

888
00:56:58,800 --> 00:57:02,040
Speaker 1: found from Richard owner of the Research Corporation for Science

889
00:57:02,080 --> 00:57:05,120
Speaker 1: Advancement and University of Arizona. He says, quote, in a

890
00:57:05,320 --> 00:57:08,840
Speaker 1: large number of modern secular democracies, there's been a trend

891
00:57:09,000 --> 00:57:12,640
Speaker 1: that folks are identifying themselves as non affiliated with religion.

892
00:57:13,000 --> 00:57:16,200
Speaker 1: In the Netherlands, the numbers the highest we saw was

893
00:57:16,280 --> 00:57:20,040
Speaker 1: in the Czech Republic, where the number is sixty. And

894
00:57:20,200 --> 00:57:23,400
Speaker 1: this is you know, this might be depressing to some

895
00:57:23,560 --> 00:57:27,480
Speaker 1: people who consider themselves very religious, but if you look

896
00:57:27,520 --> 00:57:30,520
Speaker 1: at all the bloody conflicts of the past, this is

897
00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:33,280
Speaker 1: kind of a peaceful rise of secularism, and I would

898
00:57:33,320 --> 00:57:37,200
Speaker 1: argue it's better than the alternative, which would be religious

899
00:57:37,280 --> 00:57:42,320
Speaker 1: persecution or persecution for people not being religious, for being um, apostates,

900
00:57:42,640 --> 00:57:45,080
Speaker 1: you know, or atheist. You know. I don't I don't

901
00:57:45,120 --> 00:57:46,960
Speaker 1: want to go back to Night City too much, guys,

902
00:57:47,040 --> 00:57:50,880
Speaker 1: But it just one day. What if religions are completely

903
00:57:51,120 --> 00:57:54,960
Speaker 1: taken out of the picture and it's corporate per persecution. Yeah,

904
00:57:55,120 --> 00:57:59,120
Speaker 1: like the th X was a it's a great scene

905
00:57:59,160 --> 00:58:02,000
Speaker 1: with that. Yeah. And you know that's why I think

906
00:58:02,040 --> 00:58:04,880
Speaker 1: that's a really good point, um that we should come

907
00:58:04,880 --> 00:58:07,200
Speaker 1: back to remind me before we wrap, because I gotta

908
00:58:07,240 --> 00:58:09,520
Speaker 1: I gotta pitch for you guys. We've certainly talked about

909
00:58:09,560 --> 00:58:12,920
Speaker 1: the the idea that money, uh and wealth and the

910
00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:14,840
Speaker 1: belief in all of these things is in and of

911
00:58:14,920 --> 00:58:17,640
Speaker 1: itself its own kind of faith and its own kind

912
00:58:17,680 --> 00:58:19,480
Speaker 1: of thing that can govern people, and that in many

913
00:58:19,520 --> 00:58:23,640
Speaker 1: ways can be stronger um because it's tied to you know, results,

914
00:58:23,960 --> 00:58:27,640
Speaker 1: very results driven, you know, right, And there's an argument there.

915
00:58:28,160 --> 00:58:32,120
Speaker 1: An idea is controversial to some, but it's the concept

916
00:58:32,200 --> 00:58:36,120
Speaker 1: of religion or a belief system as a kind of technology.

917
00:58:36,680 --> 00:58:38,960
Speaker 1: And if that, if we look at it through that lens,

918
00:58:39,080 --> 00:58:43,520
Speaker 1: then it's understandable that people may misuse that technology for

919
00:58:43,600 --> 00:58:45,640
Speaker 1: their own ends, just the same way you would with

920
00:58:45,800 --> 00:58:48,680
Speaker 1: fire or with a knife. Uh. And you know we

921
00:58:48,720 --> 00:58:50,520
Speaker 1: said there are two ways this happening. We give you

922
00:58:50,560 --> 00:58:54,440
Speaker 1: the newest way, peaceful rise of secularism. Uh. And now

923
00:58:54,680 --> 00:58:57,600
Speaker 1: the problem is that the second way we're going to

924
00:58:57,720 --> 00:59:01,320
Speaker 1: mention is the tried and true, the Coca Cola classic

925
00:59:02,080 --> 00:59:07,640
Speaker 1: of religions dying out, which is violence. Uh. In twenty fourteen,

926
00:59:07,840 --> 00:59:12,600
Speaker 1: Isis launched a genocide against people of the Year City faith. Uh.

927
00:59:12,760 --> 00:59:16,400
Speaker 1: They also called them devil worshipers due to specific aspects

928
00:59:16,440 --> 00:59:19,440
Speaker 1: of their doctrine. And I very poorly alluded to this

929
00:59:19,560 --> 00:59:21,840
Speaker 1: earlier and cited it as twenty eleven. But this is

930
00:59:22,200 --> 00:59:27,160
Speaker 1: absolutely this is they were still trying to kill them. Inn.

931
00:59:27,720 --> 00:59:30,600
Speaker 1: This is a very specific event. And this is yeah, yeah,

932
00:59:30,640 --> 00:59:33,840
Speaker 1: they killed thousands, as many as five thousand men who

933
00:59:33,920 --> 00:59:37,560
Speaker 1: refused to convert to Islam, the enslaved thousands of others.

934
00:59:38,360 --> 00:59:44,080
Speaker 1: This was so extreme that today thousands of women who

935
00:59:44,120 --> 00:59:48,080
Speaker 1: are enslaved in traffic remain officially missing. And this like,

936
00:59:48,280 --> 00:59:50,320
Speaker 1: this is this is a real world thing. This is

937
00:59:50,400 --> 00:59:55,320
Speaker 1: a real world impact. And right now at present, billions

938
00:59:55,360 --> 00:59:58,040
Speaker 1: of people around the world consider themselves members of one

939
00:59:58,240 --> 01:00:01,120
Speaker 1: faith or another to some degree, re or another and

940
01:00:01,240 --> 01:00:04,680
Speaker 1: that doesn't seem set to change anytime soon, and where

941
01:00:04,960 --> 01:00:07,440
Speaker 1: no one is saying that it has to or it should,

942
01:00:07,600 --> 01:00:10,680
Speaker 1: at least none of us are saying that because you know,

943
01:00:10,920 --> 01:00:13,000
Speaker 1: some of our some of the folks in the crowd today,

944
01:00:13,320 --> 01:00:15,880
Speaker 1: you know, you know that membership and a spiritual community

945
01:00:16,000 --> 01:00:19,920
Speaker 1: can bring great benefits, both physical and mental. Look into

946
01:00:20,520 --> 01:00:23,160
Speaker 1: blue zones, the parts of the world where people tend

947
01:00:23,280 --> 01:00:28,000
Speaker 1: to live much longer than others. Uh, community in a

948
01:00:28,120 --> 01:00:30,760
Speaker 1: sense of cohesion is a huge part of that. Not

949
01:00:31,080 --> 01:00:33,880
Speaker 1: to get personal about it, but I often wish that

950
01:00:34,080 --> 01:00:37,520
Speaker 1: I were more able to be more religious. I grew up,

951
01:00:37,680 --> 01:00:39,840
Speaker 1: you know, in that world, and then I kind of

952
01:00:40,120 --> 01:00:42,160
Speaker 1: abandoned it, and that's not something that's part of my life.

953
01:00:42,320 --> 01:00:45,120
Speaker 1: But I see people that are what I would consider

954
01:00:45,480 --> 01:00:48,680
Speaker 1: good examples, positive examples of people that have faith, and

955
01:00:48,800 --> 01:00:50,440
Speaker 1: it does seem to make them happier, and it does

956
01:00:50,480 --> 01:00:52,919
Speaker 1: seem to observe a very functional purpose in their lives.

957
01:00:53,280 --> 01:00:55,920
Speaker 1: Um And sometimes I feel like that's missing and I

958
01:00:56,040 --> 01:00:58,680
Speaker 1: kind of, you know, wish that I were more in

959
01:00:58,800 --> 01:01:02,640
Speaker 1: that mindset. So are absolutely physical benefits and mental health

960
01:01:02,720 --> 01:01:05,320
Speaker 1: benefits to following a certain religion and the way it

961
01:01:05,400 --> 01:01:08,040
Speaker 1: guides your life and makes you a quote unquote better person.

962
01:01:08,680 --> 01:01:11,880
Speaker 1: And I, you know, I had a difficult time research

963
01:01:11,960 --> 01:01:16,720
Speaker 1: in this episode because I didn't want to put because

964
01:01:16,760 --> 01:01:19,600
Speaker 1: we're talking about people who are like, no, do my thing,

965
01:01:19,800 --> 01:01:23,200
Speaker 1: so I don't want to talk about my old stuff.

966
01:01:23,200 --> 01:01:26,480
Speaker 1: And I think we're hitting on things that everybody can

967
01:01:27,200 --> 01:01:30,800
Speaker 1: on some level identify with, you know, And and we're

968
01:01:30,800 --> 01:01:35,520
Speaker 1: trying to be respectful about this because uh, the not

969
01:01:35,720 --> 01:01:39,520
Speaker 1: to like quote Arby's different is good. But the variations

970
01:01:39,600 --> 01:01:44,040
Speaker 1: and belief systems, you know, can help humanity learn to

971
01:01:44,200 --> 01:01:47,760
Speaker 1: look at itself in new ways, its struggles and its triumphs.

972
01:01:47,800 --> 01:01:51,440
Speaker 1: But the problem with this is that the right now,

973
01:01:51,640 --> 01:01:54,400
Speaker 1: from what we understand, the existence and importance of religion

974
01:01:54,800 --> 01:01:59,600
Speaker 1: inherently means that there will be uh practices of persecution

975
01:01:59,720 --> 01:02:02,760
Speaker 1: and a pression that follow it like a shadow. Those

976
01:02:02,840 --> 01:02:06,680
Speaker 1: seem set to continue even in countries with laws explicitly

977
01:02:06,840 --> 01:02:11,600
Speaker 1: banning abuse, harassment, or persecution based on faith, you know

978
01:02:11,680 --> 01:02:14,680
Speaker 1: what I mean. The US has laws against this, and

979
01:02:14,840 --> 01:02:19,160
Speaker 1: religious institutions are still getting attacked. This is this is

980
01:02:19,200 --> 01:02:21,760
Speaker 1: a huge issue. I mean, we could say, let's hope

981
01:02:21,800 --> 01:02:25,520
Speaker 1: that humans can learn to dwell on commonalities rather than

982
01:02:25,600 --> 01:02:30,280
Speaker 1: differences Biologically, everybody listening to this needs the same basic

983
01:02:30,400 --> 01:02:35,000
Speaker 1: stuff psychologically or socially. Like to your pointnal humans also

984
01:02:35,120 --> 01:02:38,640
Speaker 1: tend to want the same kind of mental experiences, right.

985
01:02:38,720 --> 01:02:41,600
Speaker 1: You want safety, You want a sense of belonging, you know,

986
01:02:41,760 --> 01:02:44,680
Speaker 1: just something larger than you and being an important part

987
01:02:44,760 --> 01:02:46,520
Speaker 1: of it. You want a sense that you're making the

988
01:02:46,640 --> 01:02:49,320
Speaker 1: world a little bit of a better place, at least

989
01:02:49,400 --> 01:02:51,840
Speaker 1: for your loved ones, at least giving your kids a

990
01:02:51,960 --> 01:02:54,840
Speaker 1: better shot than you had. That is like, it doesn't

991
01:02:54,880 --> 01:02:57,480
Speaker 1: matter what your belief system is. That is what most

992
01:02:57,560 --> 01:03:01,120
Speaker 1: people actually want. And if we recognize that and we

993
01:03:01,160 --> 01:03:05,600
Speaker 1: can appreciate it it's an inarguable common grounds, then that

994
01:03:05,840 --> 01:03:09,280
Speaker 1: might be the best defense against these ongoing conspiracies to

995
01:03:09,400 --> 01:03:13,000
Speaker 1: persecute or attack people because of their religion in the

996
01:03:13,120 --> 01:03:18,560
Speaker 1: modern day. Yield my time. Sorry, you know, um, I

997
01:03:18,640 --> 01:03:21,360
Speaker 1: think one of the excellent points, one of the only

998
01:03:21,400 --> 01:03:23,320
Speaker 1: other things we can all agree on, is that Horsey

999
01:03:23,360 --> 01:03:26,920
Speaker 1: Sauce is far superior to RBS Sauce. Oh god, yeah,

1000
01:03:26,960 --> 01:03:30,400
Speaker 1: what he's an is rb Sauce. I don't understand. Uh,

1001
01:03:30,920 --> 01:03:32,960
Speaker 1: not a fan, but I do have to give a

1002
01:03:32,960 --> 01:03:36,280
Speaker 1: shout out to their marketing department because they are very clever.

1003
01:03:36,560 --> 01:03:40,640
Speaker 1: They are have the like foremost like snarky um, social

1004
01:03:40,720 --> 01:03:43,400
Speaker 1: media feeds and all of fast food dumb um. But

1005
01:03:43,720 --> 01:03:46,960
Speaker 1: we have the meats. They had a venicine Burger for

1006
01:03:47,000 --> 01:03:48,680
Speaker 1: a while too. I was sad that I couldn't get

1007
01:03:48,720 --> 01:03:51,080
Speaker 1: to it. I didn't know about the um. But this

1008
01:03:51,320 --> 01:03:54,760
Speaker 1: is all certainly food for thought. And whatever your religious

1009
01:03:54,760 --> 01:03:57,680
Speaker 1: persuasion is or lack thereof, out there, we would love

1010
01:03:57,720 --> 01:04:00,120
Speaker 1: to know what you think. Um. Do you think that

1011
01:04:00,280 --> 01:04:05,920
Speaker 1: religions are going to be continuously in conflict until time immemorial? Um?

1012
01:04:06,320 --> 01:04:08,840
Speaker 1: Or is it going to kind of become more of

1013
01:04:08,920 --> 01:04:12,200
Speaker 1: a motto uh culture in terms of like like, I

1014
01:04:12,320 --> 01:04:14,720
Speaker 1: love your idea mat of either some sort of techno

1015
01:04:15,480 --> 01:04:19,320
Speaker 1: religion that everyone is invested in, maybe by force or

1016
01:04:19,400 --> 01:04:22,880
Speaker 1: just by virtue of social evolution. Yeah, I'm calling it now.

1017
01:04:23,400 --> 01:04:27,640
Speaker 1: It's the cult of our asaka. I don't understand that reference.

1018
01:04:27,680 --> 01:04:30,360
Speaker 1: But it's all good. It's all good. So let us

1019
01:04:30,440 --> 01:04:34,840
Speaker 1: know what you think, and let us know. This is

1020
01:04:34,920 --> 01:04:36,680
Speaker 1: something we didn't have time to get to today because

1021
01:04:36,680 --> 01:04:39,560
Speaker 1: we're running along. But let us know whether you believe,

1022
01:04:39,880 --> 01:04:44,360
Speaker 1: as some do, that there are secret religions existing kind

1023
01:04:44,400 --> 01:04:46,800
Speaker 1: of like the cult of Mithress in the modern day.

1024
01:04:47,120 --> 01:04:49,800
Speaker 1: You know, maybe did some go underground and just never

1025
01:04:49,920 --> 01:04:53,200
Speaker 1: come back up? If so, what are they and do

1026
01:04:53,320 --> 01:04:55,600
Speaker 1: you have an address where we can go and visit them?

1027
01:04:55,760 --> 01:04:59,000
Speaker 1: Anywhere about Bohemian growth. We would love to hear from you.

1028
01:04:59,480 --> 01:05:01,520
Speaker 1: We try to it get easy to find us online.

1029
01:05:01,760 --> 01:05:04,360
Speaker 1: Find us on the internet in the usual social media

1030
01:05:04,440 --> 01:05:08,000
Speaker 1: places of note. We are Conspiracy Stuff on YouTube, Facebook,

1031
01:05:08,080 --> 01:05:11,280
Speaker 1: and Twitter, Conspiracy Stuff Show on Instagram. Can also reach

1032
01:05:11,400 --> 01:05:14,840
Speaker 1: us via a telephone number. Yes, our number is one

1033
01:05:15,160 --> 01:05:18,480
Speaker 1: three three st d w y t K. When you call,

1034
01:05:18,720 --> 01:05:21,360
Speaker 1: give yourself a nickname or your use your real one.

1035
01:05:21,480 --> 01:05:25,400
Speaker 1: That's fine, We'll be careful. Let us know if you

1036
01:05:25,520 --> 01:05:29,200
Speaker 1: can use what you say on air, and if you

1037
01:05:29,320 --> 01:05:31,760
Speaker 1: want to say anything personally to us, please leave it

1038
01:05:31,840 --> 01:05:34,400
Speaker 1: at the end of the message. Let's see. If you've

1039
01:05:34,440 --> 01:05:35,960
Speaker 1: got a lot to say and you want to send

1040
01:05:36,000 --> 01:05:38,840
Speaker 1: supplementary links or anything like that, the best way to

1041
01:05:38,920 --> 01:05:40,920
Speaker 1: get that to us is to use our good old

1042
01:05:40,960 --> 01:06:00,320
Speaker 1: fashioned email address. We are conspiracy at iHeart radio dot com. Yeah.

1043
01:06:04,200 --> 01:06:06,280
Speaker 1: Stuff they Don't want you to Know is a production

1044
01:06:06,360 --> 01:06:09,440
Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio,

1045
01:06:09,600 --> 01:06:12,360
Speaker 1: visit the i heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever

1046
01:06:12,520 --> 01:06:13,800
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.