1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:05,480 Speaker 1: The worst thing that these people, the state, the justice system, 2 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:08,200 Speaker 1: and the prison could have done to me is by 3 00:00:08,320 --> 00:00:10,560 Speaker 1: flay me. And that's what happened. 4 00:00:11,360 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 2: This is Krista Pike in a statement recorded by one 5 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:16,000 Speaker 2: of her attorneys on Our Behalf. 6 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:19,600 Speaker 1: And you know, as ironic as that may sound, I'm 7 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:22,239 Speaker 1: a people person and I love to be around people. 8 00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 1: I'm very affectionate. My love language is touch and affection. 9 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 1: And to be completely isolated from everyone, aside from you know, 10 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:40,480 Speaker 1: accidental touch while I'm being handcuffed or being padded down 11 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:47,640 Speaker 1: during the search, was excruciating for me, and it left 12 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:49,879 Speaker 1: me very miserable, very lonely. 13 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 2: For almost three decades, Krista has been in solitary confinement 14 00:00:57,280 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 2: on death Row in Nashville for her role in the 15 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:03,960 Speaker 2: of nineteen year old Colleen Slimmer. But in September twenty 16 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:07,839 Speaker 2: twenty four, while we were making this podcast, Christa's legal 17 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:10,200 Speaker 2: team told us that they had big news they wanted 18 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:14,039 Speaker 2: to share. Thanks to a recent lawsuit, Christa was out 19 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:15,400 Speaker 2: of solitary. 20 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:17,960 Speaker 3: So the summer of twenty twenty just to see how 21 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 3: differently she was being treated than the men on Tennessee 22 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 3: seth Row because they could move around. 23 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:27,319 Speaker 2: This is Randy Spidey, one of Christa's lawyers. 24 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:29,560 Speaker 3: Like they had free run of their pod because there 25 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 3: were only other folks that were also under a death 26 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 3: sentence in their pod. So there's this strange law on Tennessee. 27 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:39,480 Speaker 3: I think it's strange that folks who've been sentenced to 28 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 3: death have to be kept separate from general population. 29 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:45,039 Speaker 4: And that works out fine for the men. 30 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 3: They can still have like group therapy and group religious classes, 31 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:53,520 Speaker 3: or group academic classes and group arts and crafts and 32 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 3: on all that kind of stuff and still have a 33 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 3: community out there. 34 00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:59,240 Speaker 4: But if you're the only woman, and obviously doesn't work 35 00:01:59,280 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 4: that way. 36 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 2: That stark difference in treatment between Tennessee's only woman on 37 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 2: death row and the dozens of men in the same 38 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:11,640 Speaker 2: situation prompted Christa's lawyers to start thinking about filing a 39 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:15,360 Speaker 2: civil rights lawsuit on her behalf, drawing attention to her 40 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:18,120 Speaker 2: almost thirty years in solitary confinement. 41 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:20,800 Speaker 3: And so we started pushing as best we could and 42 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 3: document and stuff as best we could with the prison 43 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:28,639 Speaker 3: to get contact legal visits, and it just really wasn't 44 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 3: going anywhere. So I contacted a friend of mine who 45 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 3: I had gone to college with who had gone on 46 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:38,400 Speaker 3: to law school and was working at Bess Barry, which 47 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 3: is one of the larger firms in Nashville. They've got 48 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 3: several lawyers over there who've done a lot of work 49 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:48,640 Speaker 3: with folks who are incarcerated and with folks who are 50 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:51,800 Speaker 3: on death row in Tennessee. So we contacted them and said, 51 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 3: we'd like you to take a look at Chris's case 52 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 3: and to see if there's anything you can do with 53 00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 3: like a civil rights claim a nineteen eighty three claim. 54 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:05,080 Speaker 2: A nineteen eighty three claim is a civil action filed 55 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 2: under a federal statute that allows individuals to sue government 56 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 2: officials on the basis that their constitutional or statutory rights 57 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:14,280 Speaker 2: have been violated. 58 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 3: Eventually, we're able to reach a settlement where Christa kind 59 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:22,520 Speaker 3: of has a step down process, which was very important 60 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 3: for Christa and very important for us for this to 61 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 3: be successful. But Christa didn't want to just throw open 62 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:32,240 Speaker 3: the doors and let her into the pod because she 63 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 3: was afraid of that being overwhelming to her having I mean, 64 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 3: she's been locked down for twenty five years something like that, 65 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 3: almost for three years. 66 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:46,400 Speaker 2: The prison agreed to a three step implementation where Christa 67 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 2: would gradually be reintroduced to being around other people. 68 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 3: She started just having people in the cage next to 69 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 3: her at wreck, because originally when she would go out 70 00:03:57,280 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 3: to wrect, like no one could be even out there 71 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 3: with her, so like there were cages like little dog runs, 72 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 3: but there couldn't be anybody next to her in a cage, so. 73 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 4: Like not even that close. 74 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 3: And then they moved from that to where they let 75 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 3: folks in the lobby with her, so she got to 76 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:19,080 Speaker 3: have a meal with people with three to five other 77 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 3: people in the lobby, got to have some just kind 78 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 3: of downtime. We took her out instructions on how to 79 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 3: play chess the other day because she actually can play 80 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 3: a game with someone. I'm trying to figure out how 81 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:36,039 Speaker 3: to get her rook cards because she and I both 82 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 3: grew up playing roku as opposed to spades. But they've 83 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:41,840 Speaker 3: been playing spades a good bit, and so then that 84 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 3: eventually increased to I think just in the last week 85 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 3: or so, she's been able to wreck in the same 86 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 3: cage with three to these three to five other people 87 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 3: that she's been with, and so it's a every couple 88 00:04:56,040 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 3: of months, it graduates up a little more to she's 89 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:03,719 Speaker 3: going to be able to just live within the pod 90 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 3: like the other women in that pod do. 91 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 4: And she's not quite there yet, but she's getting close. 92 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 1: To come out of that and be allowed to be 93 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 1: around the ladies in here and to be able to 94 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 1: hug someone or have my hair braided, or just to 95 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 1: have a meal with people and interact socially. It's amazing 96 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:37,239 Speaker 1: to me to just feel kind of normal again. 97 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:41,479 Speaker 2: One of the things Kristal was most excited about was 98 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 2: a job washing down the prison shower stalls, something that 99 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 2: touches the spectrum of normalcy in a deeply abnormal situation. 100 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 2: But it's all a major adjustment for someone who's had 101 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 2: such limited contact with other people for her entire adult life. 102 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 1: It's strange because it's so new, and it's still kind 103 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:06,920 Speaker 1: of raw to me. It's weird to have people, you know, 104 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:09,800 Speaker 1: walk up to me really fast, or walk behind me, 105 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:13,600 Speaker 1: for people to touch me when I don't know they're 106 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:18,720 Speaker 1: going to. It's still strange. Sometimes the sounds the smells 107 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:22,719 Speaker 1: are new and different. But it's all just exciting and 108 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 1: I'm happy about all of it. I waited a long 109 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:26,839 Speaker 1: time for this. 110 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:32,279 Speaker 3: She was so nervous but so excited just about like 111 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 3: being able to talk to people without barriers in between them, and. 112 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:40,680 Speaker 4: She has just loved it. 113 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:43,800 Speaker 3: And it's not like she's she's giddy, but there's a 114 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 3: composure about her right now that is different. It's a 115 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:54,240 Speaker 3: lack of a desperation that is different than I've seen 116 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:55,599 Speaker 3: her in the last couple of years. 117 00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 2: For Christa's advocates, this ruling and her release from solituar 118 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 2: is a form of justice. They've spent decades fighting for her, 119 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:08,039 Speaker 2: attempting to overturn her death sentence. They argue that she 120 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 2: has suffered first as a kid with no sense of safety, 121 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 2: placed in hugely traumatizing situations, and now as an adult 122 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:19,560 Speaker 2: who has been serving the equivalent of a life sentence 123 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 2: but still faces execution. But for some people, assertions about 124 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 2: what Christa deserves are in natural tension with the idea 125 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:31,680 Speaker 2: of justice for Colleen, who was murdered on the cusp 126 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 2: of adulthood, that Christa's participation in that act is fundamentally unforgivable, 127 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 2: and that her suffering is an appropriate remedy part of 128 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 2: a reasonable set of consequences for committing such a reprehensible crime. 129 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 2: One of the people who believes that Christa deserves to 130 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 2: be punished for the rest of her life. Is Colleen's 131 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 2: mother actually? 132 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 5: To be honest, I wanted to just go ahead and 133 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 5: kill her like she did my daughter. 134 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 2: Many victims or their surviving loved ones cling to retribution, 135 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 2: including the fulfillment of a death sentence, partly because the 136 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 2: justice system rarely offers them a more satisfying option. Thirty 137 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:17,679 Speaker 2: years later, is retribution the only way to get justice 138 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 2: for Calleen? I'm Beth Carris and this is Unrestorable Season 139 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:28,679 Speaker 2: two Proof of Life, an original podcast from Anonymous content 140 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:38,480 Speaker 2: and iHeartRadio. So we want to start first of all 141 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:42,560 Speaker 2: with having you tell us about Calleen, like, who was what. 142 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 6: Was she like? 143 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:47,480 Speaker 5: She was a child that was so giving. 144 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:52,199 Speaker 2: Sarah Trelevan and I connected over zoom with Mae Martinez, 145 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 2: the mother of Colleen Slemmer. 146 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 5: Shed work with a lot of handicapped children. She worked 147 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 5: for his close system painting schools in summertime, you know, 148 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 5: for the getting ready for the following year. She was 149 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 5: just well not you know, very friendly. You know, she 150 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:10,959 Speaker 5: loved to doing different things. 151 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 2: And you had other children besides Colleen, right, I did? 152 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 2: And was she close to her sibling. 153 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:20,400 Speaker 5: They were they were very close. They were two years apart. 154 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:23,680 Speaker 2: Why did Colleen go to job Corps? What did she 155 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:25,079 Speaker 2: want to get out of Job Corps? 156 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:32,080 Speaker 5: Computers? She did computer training with her stepdad and they 157 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:34,840 Speaker 5: were known as computer geeks and too they will play 158 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 5: a lot of lemon games and a lot of stuff 159 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:38,440 Speaker 5: like that and fix it and he even have a 160 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:41,600 Speaker 5: T shirt that says computer Geeks on it. So I 161 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 5: made it into a teddy bear for her when she 162 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:44,440 Speaker 5: was killed. 163 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 2: Well, Krista's team is focused on the present, on who 164 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:52,120 Speaker 2: Christa is now and how far she's come. May is 165 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:56,600 Speaker 2: understandably fixed on the past. On the cold January evening 166 00:09:56,640 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety five when her daughter was murdered, When 167 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 2: was the last time you tooked? 168 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:04,680 Speaker 5: The night she was killed, we talked. She called me 169 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:07,040 Speaker 5: up and she said, Mom, she said, I'm going to 170 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:09,480 Speaker 5: talk to you. Said I'm very upset, and I didn't 171 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 5: have a good signal. I said, well, i'll call you back, 172 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 5: and I called her back at ten o'clock and it 173 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:15,320 Speaker 5: was very too late. 174 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:18,319 Speaker 2: She didn't say what was upsetting her mom. 175 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:20,640 Speaker 5: The street kids that won't be me alone. They were 176 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:24,839 Speaker 5: picking at her in class. That Friday, about ten o'clock 177 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 5: in the morning, I was at the base with my 178 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 5: youngest one and I got called from to Tech New 179 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 5: York saying, this is homicide. I need you to call 180 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:37,760 Speaker 5: me back, and I needed to identify calling's body. You know, 181 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 5: I didn't know anything right away. When I went into Tennessee. 182 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 5: I went to the office of you know, Brand New York, 183 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 5: and he showed me pictures. The whole thing was like, 184 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 5: you don't understand it when they show you this, this 185 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 5: is what happened to your daughter. 186 00:10:57,360 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 2: But the horror didn't end there. 187 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 5: I thought I buried a whole child, and ten months 188 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:05,000 Speaker 5: later I find out they had her spelt. 189 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 2: Part of the indignity of being a victim of violent 190 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:16,800 Speaker 2: crime is that the victim's body becomes temporary property of 191 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 2: the state and they do what they need to do 192 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 2: to examine it to prove their case. May says The 193 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 2: state released Colleen's body to her piece by piece, and 194 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:29,880 Speaker 2: it took years before she got all of her daughter back. 195 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:34,480 Speaker 2: The fragment of Colleen's skull that Christa took after the murder, 196 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:37,440 Speaker 2: the one that played an outsized role at trial and 197 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 2: in media reports, was kept by the State of Tennessee 198 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 2: for fourteen years until it was finally returned to May 199 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 2: in a box. 200 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 5: And then I had to reopen the grave and I 201 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 5: finally brought her home. 202 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:55,440 Speaker 2: For the last thirty years, May has been thrust into 203 00:11:55,520 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 2: an unwelcome spotlight. During Christa's Knoxville trial, May became the 204 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:04,000 Speaker 2: face of a community's grief, and she has spoken out 205 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 2: about the case in the years since, even asking the 206 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 2: court in twenty twenty one to set an execution date 207 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:13,679 Speaker 2: for Christa, saying that she wanted to see Christa executed 208 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:17,560 Speaker 2: before she died. She's also expressed her anger with a 209 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 2: criminal justice system that she believes marginalizes victims. 210 00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:23,840 Speaker 5: I just didn't think the whole thing was going to 211 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:26,760 Speaker 5: be sitting here and waiting thirty years later. 212 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 6: Is there anything that could have been done that to 213 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 6: you would have made this feel more like. 214 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:40,320 Speaker 5: Justice releasing her skull and her body parts back to 215 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 5: me all at one time. 216 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:44,959 Speaker 6: You must have a sort of this must be such 217 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 6: a stark before and after for you in your life, 218 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 6: that there was your life before this happened, and then 219 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:50,559 Speaker 6: your life after. 220 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, And I just wonder it changed me totally. 221 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 5: When calling is killed. I lost probably twenty percent of myself. 222 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 6: Is there anything that you think at this point that 223 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 6: can somehow bring you some sense of peace related to 224 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:13,560 Speaker 6: Colleen's terrible. 225 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:16,320 Speaker 5: I don't think there's anything in peace because you've always 226 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:20,200 Speaker 5: got that wondering, you know, worse Colleen, why is she here? 227 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:23,640 Speaker 5: And what would she be doing at that age? There's 228 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:25,680 Speaker 5: nothing really you can bring peace that you just have 229 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:30,520 Speaker 5: to deal with it. You know, no matter what they do, Chris, 230 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 5: if she was put to deck today, it's still going 231 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:36,320 Speaker 5: to aggravate me the fact that Colleen can't do this 232 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 5: and do that. So, you know, but I thank God 233 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 5: that I knew what happened to Colleen and that they 234 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:46,720 Speaker 5: were able to catch them quick enough. Instead of going 235 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 5: for the rest of my life where is she? So 236 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 5: that I do have that I know she was there 237 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:56,440 Speaker 5: and it happened, and it's done, and ever with I 238 00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:59,960 Speaker 5: would never have to wonder where is she or what happened. 239 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:04,960 Speaker 2: May has a memorial for Colleen in her backyard. There 240 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:09,120 Speaker 2: are rose bushes and a plaque with Colleen's name and 241 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:15,720 Speaker 2: angels own them. Now fast forward to today, now, thirty 242 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:22,240 Speaker 2: years later, can you accept that today Krista she's forty nine. 243 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:25,600 Speaker 2: She's not the same person she was when she was eighteen, 244 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 2: when she murdered Colleen. Can you accept that she's not 245 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 2: the same person. 246 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:34,000 Speaker 5: No, she's the same person. I don't think she's changed 247 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 5: at all. I really doubt the fact that she tried 248 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:44,720 Speaker 5: to kill another inmate. I think she's the same person 249 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 5: as always and she'll never change. She'll always had that 250 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 5: evil she should kill again. I have no doubt about that. 251 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 2: She's had over the last three decades, a lot of 252 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 2: lawyers post conviction fighting for her, appealing and habeasts and 253 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:06,560 Speaker 2: post conviction petitions and all kinds of things, trying to 254 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 2: find error at trial, and she hasn't prevailed. She's sort 255 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:14,320 Speaker 2: of on the last of it. But what are your 256 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:17,720 Speaker 2: thoughts about these teams of lawyers who have been working 257 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 2: for Krista to spare her life, not to get her free, 258 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:21,960 Speaker 2: but to spare her life. 259 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:27,720 Speaker 5: I think they're stupid, We'll be honest, because I think, 260 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 5: why are they wasting the money knowing in the outcome 261 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 5: if they do get her with life, she's going to 262 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:37,320 Speaker 5: go out and do it again. I think they're wasting 263 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:41,920 Speaker 5: their money, and this stag's money. I think what they 264 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 5: should have did was help a victim. Why didn't they 265 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:47,600 Speaker 5: help other victims? Why did they didn't help me? And 266 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:51,480 Speaker 5: they never did it? You know, they was like, here 267 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 5: take your child and barrier. Really, but that's how they are. 268 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 2: Have you had any interaction with over the years? Has 269 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 2: she ever written to you? 270 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 5: No? 271 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:04,400 Speaker 1: Then? 272 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 5: Whatsoever? 273 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:08,400 Speaker 2: If you could talk to her or send her a message, 274 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 2: I mean, what would you say. 275 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:13,000 Speaker 5: I wouldn't talk to her. I wouldn't give it a satisfaction. 276 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:17,200 Speaker 5: I have nothing to say to her. She did me wrong, 277 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 5: she did coming wrong. 278 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 2: Chris is on the sort of the last legs of 279 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:25,480 Speaker 2: all her appeals and efforts in court, right, I mean 280 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 2: she should make a play for clemency to the governor, 281 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 2: but she may get an execution date. Will you attend 282 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:33,000 Speaker 2: her execution? 283 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 5: Yes, if I'm alive, I will be there holding Collin's. 284 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 6: Picture up and may can I just ask you were 285 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 6: shaking your head when Beth was mentioning the execution date? 286 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:43,640 Speaker 4: Are you? 287 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 6: Can you tell me a bit about that reaction? 288 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:50,080 Speaker 5: This is never going to happen. She is the youngest 289 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 5: and always being a female there, They'll never execute her. 290 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 7: Never. 291 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 5: That's why I shook my head. 292 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:01,400 Speaker 2: May is convinced that Christa's lawyers don't just want to 293 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:04,880 Speaker 2: overturn her death sentence, but to free her from prison. 294 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 2: It's a prospect that feels unbearable that Krista would somehow 295 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 2: be able to return to some semblance of a normal life, 296 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:14,920 Speaker 2: as May continues to grieve her daughter. 297 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 6: As you've said, you know, nothing will bring Colleen back. 298 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:23,919 Speaker 6: Is there something in this case that might feel like 299 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:27,159 Speaker 6: justice to you, that might that might feel like justice 300 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 6: had been served for Colleen? 301 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:41,879 Speaker 3: Not really. I think about Colleen a lot, what she 302 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:43,920 Speaker 3: could have been and what she would have been. 303 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 2: For Christa's lawyers, there's no ambivalence about advocating for Christa 304 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:51,800 Speaker 2: and honoring the memory of Colleen. 305 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:56,640 Speaker 3: It's devastating to think of that that life cut short 306 00:17:56,840 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 3: and what that meant to siblings, to family, to friends, 307 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:03,479 Speaker 3: to all of those folks. 308 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 2: Part of that broad lens is the acceptance that while 309 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:11,040 Speaker 2: they advocate for the incarcerated, they often see that a 310 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:15,639 Speaker 2: strictly adversarial approach and the punishment of their clients brings 311 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 2: little sense of resolution for victims and their families. 312 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:21,639 Speaker 3: I think there's a sense with the work that we 313 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 3: do that we don't care or empathize with the victims, 314 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 3: and I have just not found that to be the case. 315 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:32,200 Speaker 3: It's devastatingly sad that we are all in this position 316 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:35,960 Speaker 3: right now. I think we're also better off if we 317 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:38,200 Speaker 3: figure out a way to get out of it together 318 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:43,879 Speaker 3: rather than just kind of pick sides and heral insults 319 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 3: back and forth. And I think that to the extent 320 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:49,879 Speaker 3: there's healing possible in this case, it's got to involve everybody. 321 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:54,520 Speaker 7: I do not see conflict in representing Christa and seeing 322 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 7: Colleen as a really beautiful person who should have had 323 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:00,360 Speaker 7: a full life. 324 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:04,399 Speaker 2: This is Anna sent an investigator who works with Christa's attorneys. 325 00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:08,680 Speaker 7: Colleen was young too. There's no excuse for the loss 326 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:11,200 Speaker 7: of her life. I think it's a tragedy. I don't 327 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:14,760 Speaker 7: think that any of my work discounts that that's a tragedy. 328 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:17,359 Speaker 7: And I don't view what we're doing is trying to 329 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:20,480 Speaker 7: present an excuse or trying to rationalize or trying to 330 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:24,840 Speaker 7: make light of the loss of Colleen's life. In all 331 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:27,439 Speaker 7: of my cases, I find it important to learn what 332 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:29,439 Speaker 7: I can about the victim's family. I look at the 333 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:33,719 Speaker 7: crime scene footage, I watch media coverage about what the 334 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:36,199 Speaker 7: victim's family are saying, because I don't ever want to 335 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 7: reduce them to just part of my client's story. It 336 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 7: is so important to recognize that we're doing this because 337 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 7: somebody's life was lost. But if we're thinking about justice, 338 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:48,879 Speaker 7: Chris is receiving punishment for the loss of Colleen's life. 339 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:55,639 Speaker 2: So much of our system for those who commit violent 340 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 2: crimes is based on the idea of retributive punishment, that 341 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:02,800 Speaker 2: doing harm means you deserve harm, an eye for an eye. 342 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 2: But the purpose of punishment in the criminal justice system 343 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:10,760 Speaker 2: is not just retribution. It also includes deterring future crimes, 344 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:18,120 Speaker 2: protection of the public, and crucially, rehabilitation. Rehabilitation services are 345 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:21,120 Speaker 2: not typically available to death row inmates who have been 346 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:25,359 Speaker 2: cast off as unrestorable, but the question is not whether 347 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:27,480 Speaker 2: most of the people who end up on death row 348 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:32,240 Speaker 2: are capable of change, but whether, having been deemed unworthy 349 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:36,399 Speaker 2: of life, the rehabilitation of those inmates can play a 350 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 2: role in creating a sense of justice for victims and 351 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:41,640 Speaker 2: those who grieve them. 352 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:44,879 Speaker 3: I think we think a lot about we think vengeance 353 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:49,840 Speaker 3: or exacting some sort of prices is justice. I took 354 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:52,520 Speaker 3: some theology classes for a while when I didn't think 355 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 3: I wanted to be a lawyer anymore. And one of 356 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:58,400 Speaker 3: the things that I always thought was fascinating was we 357 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 3: were reading some of the profits from back in the 358 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:04,919 Speaker 3: Old Testament, and the way they thought about justice. I've 359 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:08,480 Speaker 3: always loved this is like they thought about sin as 360 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 3: the breaking of a relationship, and that makes perfect sense. 361 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:15,360 Speaker 3: Like anytime a crime has committed, a relationship has been broken. 362 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 3: Even if those two people had never known each other, 363 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 3: that's a relationship now, Like those two are going to 364 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:22,560 Speaker 3: think about each other for the rest of their lives, 365 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:26,000 Speaker 3: and that relationship is broken, and what justice is is 366 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:29,399 Speaker 3: the process of putting that back together. And I've always 367 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:31,439 Speaker 3: liked that, Like that makes a lot of sense to me. 368 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:34,399 Speaker 3: That justice is healing the wound, and that's going to 369 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:36,600 Speaker 3: look like a lot of different things for a lot 370 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:39,280 Speaker 3: of different people. And I think one of the reasons 371 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:41,880 Speaker 3: that you see so much litigation and so much talk 372 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 3: around death penalty issues is I think a lot of 373 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 3: people in this society understand that a death sentence being 374 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:51,560 Speaker 3: carried out does not serve in that healing process in 375 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 3: any way. And you can talk, I mean, victims' families 376 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:59,439 Speaker 3: feel like that victims' families are not not exclusively, but 377 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 3: are widely just as frustrated with the system and the 378 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:06,600 Speaker 3: state as anything else in the process. 379 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 6: And so, why do you think we keep doing it? 380 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:16,320 Speaker 3: I think it's I think there are a lot of 381 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 3: reasons we keep doing it. I think it's an easy 382 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:22,199 Speaker 3: thing to politicize. It's I think a lot of people 383 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 3: think they know how they feel about it. It's one 384 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:28,160 Speaker 3: of those issues that you don't have to think about 385 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 3: in a personal way until you have to think about 386 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:35,040 Speaker 3: it in a personal way. And it doesn't touch most 387 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:38,399 Speaker 3: people's lives, but when it does, like you'll start thinking 388 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:39,360 Speaker 3: differently about it. 389 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:44,160 Speaker 8: When I went to court on the day that they 390 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:46,240 Speaker 8: determined I was going to take a plea, no one 391 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 8: had ever talked to me about victim services. No one 392 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:51,480 Speaker 8: had talked to me about victim rights or who was 393 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:56,360 Speaker 8: hurt or what that meant, or surviving people or any 394 00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 8: of that stuff. 395 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 2: Ashley Sellers served time at the Kay Johnson Rehabilitation Center 396 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:06,160 Speaker 2: with Christa. She too was convicted of murder while still 397 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 2: a teenager. In her case, she was present when her 398 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 2: boyfriend shot a twenty three year old woman named Cynthia Page. 399 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 8: There was a man and a woman who stood up 400 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:18,199 Speaker 8: and talked about what a horrible human being I was 401 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:20,080 Speaker 8: and how I deserve to spend the rest of my 402 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 8: life in prison. 403 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:24,280 Speaker 2: Those two people were Cynthia's parents. 404 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:27,159 Speaker 8: The two things that they said specifically was that I 405 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:29,240 Speaker 8: had never shown any remorse and I had never taken 406 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 8: any accountability. This is almost three y it's over two 407 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:35,719 Speaker 8: years all right, going into this, And that was the 408 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:38,960 Speaker 8: two things that they continued to highlight. They didn't say 409 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:41,679 Speaker 8: I hadn't been in solitary enough. They didn't say, you know, 410 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 8: she hasn't been punished enough, she didn't experience enough trauma. 411 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 3: It wasn't any of that. 412 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:49,200 Speaker 8: It was I did not take accountability and I had 413 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:51,800 Speaker 8: not shown remorse. And so I raised my hand and 414 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:53,879 Speaker 8: I asked if I could speak with them, and so 415 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 8: the judge allowed just the three of us to go 416 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:03,239 Speaker 8: behind a closed door. And I didn't go into the 417 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:06,000 Speaker 8: things about my life or what had happened. I just 418 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 8: told them that their daughter's. 419 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:08,640 Speaker 3: Death saved my life. 420 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 8: And they grabbed me and they hugged me, and they 421 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:11,880 Speaker 8: cried with me, and they prayed with me, and they 422 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:15,440 Speaker 8: loved on me. Ultimately, they gave me the cross that 423 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 8: their daughter Cynthia used to wear, and I didn't have 424 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:24,920 Speaker 8: any language for that moment. I didn't know what that meant. 425 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 8: I didn't know what that could be called. I didn't 426 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:30,359 Speaker 8: know anything. I just knew that somebody said some stuff 427 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,400 Speaker 8: about me that wasn't really who I was, and that 428 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:38,200 Speaker 8: I had been troubled by the situation about Cynthia's death 429 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:40,959 Speaker 8: for a very long time, but had no way of 430 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:43,480 Speaker 8: knowing even how to process or do anything with that. 431 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:49,520 Speaker 2: The language Ashley was looking for was restorative justice, a 432 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:53,119 Speaker 2: process of bringing together victims and those who have caused 433 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:56,359 Speaker 2: them harm in an effort to find mutually beneficial ways 434 00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:58,320 Speaker 2: to heal and move forward. 435 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:02,000 Speaker 8: I was able to see the amount of healing that 436 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 8: the page families seemed to have in thirty seconds with 437 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:08,280 Speaker 8: me was so much greater than anything that the system 438 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:10,520 Speaker 8: had offered them in over two years. 439 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:12,199 Speaker 6: Right. 440 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:16,719 Speaker 8: They wanted answers, they wanted conversation, they wanted accountability, they 441 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:22,040 Speaker 8: wanted remorse, they wanted that, you know, they didn't necessarily 442 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:24,160 Speaker 8: say they wanted punishment. 443 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:28,600 Speaker 2: When Ashley was released from prison in twenty seventeen, she 444 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:32,280 Speaker 2: became an advocate for youth Justice reform as well as 445 00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:33,720 Speaker 2: restorative justice. 446 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:36,640 Speaker 8: I know that what I have seen in the work 447 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 8: that I'm in and what I have read in the 448 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,320 Speaker 8: experience of the people across the nation who have had 449 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 8: intensive harms happened to them and their family, that the 450 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 8: system in its current state does not create healing and 451 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 8: therefore doesn't necessarily give an option for people to define 452 00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 8: what justice really means for them. And I would argue 453 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,720 Speaker 8: that for our Colleen's family, a system that failed them 454 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 8: over and over and over. Also the States said this 455 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:10,679 Speaker 8: is what justice will look like for you. 456 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:13,520 Speaker 6: You know, it seems like, on one hand, we're so 457 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:17,120 Speaker 6: committed to this idea of good versus evil, but it's 458 00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:19,639 Speaker 6: that's not what makes us feel better. That's not what 459 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 6: brings us closure, that's not what brings us a sense 460 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:25,479 Speaker 6: of resolution. It's it's I think, arguably it makes us 461 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:28,920 Speaker 6: feel worse. But we're so committed to that narrative. 462 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:31,240 Speaker 8: Yeah, I think, I mean, I think we're conditioned to that. 463 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:34,359 Speaker 8: I think we're conditioned to our response. We have to 464 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 8: punish them, you know, we lean into the space of 465 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:41,119 Speaker 8: someone has to be incarcerated, they have to have surveillance, 466 00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 8: they have to do restitution probation, community service. 467 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:46,920 Speaker 4: That's it. 468 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:50,360 Speaker 8: But we never talk about healing journey. We never talk 469 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:53,560 Speaker 8: about accountability, We never talk about remorse, We never talk 470 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,720 Speaker 8: about these things. But over the years, I've continued to 471 00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:00,840 Speaker 8: hear repetitively from people who have been harmed. That's almost 472 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:02,680 Speaker 8: what every person says. I don't want it to happen 473 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:03,960 Speaker 8: to me again, and I don't want it to happen 474 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:04,640 Speaker 8: to somebody else. 475 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:11,000 Speaker 2: Krista being released from solitary wasn't the only breaking news 476 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:14,240 Speaker 2: we got while working on this podcast. Not long after 477 00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:18,280 Speaker 2: that happened, there was another development, and this one had 478 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:20,760 Speaker 2: the potential to change everything. 479 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:25,879 Speaker 3: So she called and she clearly had not heard. So 480 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:28,880 Speaker 3: she was in a great mood, like she was very chipper, 481 00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:33,240 Speaker 3: And I told her that, like I needed to tell 482 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:40,120 Speaker 3: her something, and it was devastating. 483 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:45,200 Speaker 2: That's next time on Proof of Life. 484 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:52,560 Speaker 6: Unrestorable is executive produced and hosted by Me, Sarah Chilevin, 485 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 6: and Beth Carras Mixing and sound design by Reza Daiah 486 00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:01,600 Speaker 6: for anonymous content. Jessica Grimshaw is our executive producer, Jennifer 487 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:04,639 Speaker 6: Sears is our executive in charge of production, and Nicole 488 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:09,240 Speaker 6: Pronk is our legal counsel for iHeart, executive producer Christina 489 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:12,320 Speaker 6: Everett and supervising producer Abu Zafar.