Speaker 1: When you share your dreams with people, it's really hard
Speaker 1: for me to not want your dreams to happen for you.
Speaker 1: Welcome to the one you feed Throughout time. Great thinkers
Speaker 1: have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes
Speaker 1: like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you
Speaker 1: think ring true, and yet for many of us, our
Speaker 1: thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity,
Speaker 1: self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't
Speaker 1: have instead of what we do. We think things that
Speaker 1: hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not
Speaker 1: just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent,
Speaker 1: and creative effort to make a life worth living. This
Speaker 1: podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in
Speaker 1: the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks
Speaker 1: for joining us in our first ever episode with two
Speaker 1: interviewees at once, we have Alex Jamison and Bob Gower.
Speaker 1: Alex Jamison is a holistic weight loss, nutrition and lifestyle
Speaker 1: coach that has appeared on Oprah, Martha Stewart, Living, CNN,
Speaker 1: Fox News, USA Today, and People Magazine. Bob Gower is
Speaker 1: a consultant who helps organizations become future ready and more effective.
Speaker 1: Bob has worked with leaders at organizations from multinationals like
Speaker 1: Chanel Ford and ge all the way to nonprofits like
Speaker 1: New York Public Radio and the Studio Museum in Harlem.
Speaker 1: Alex and Bob are co authors of the new book
Speaker 1: Radical Alignment, How to Have Game Changing Conversations that will
Speaker 1: Transform your business and your life. Hi Alex and Hi Bob,
Speaker 1: Welcome to the show. Hi, Thanks thanks for having us.
Speaker 1: I think this might be the first time we've interviewed
Speaker 1: two people at the same time. I'm excited about that.
Speaker 1: I think that's gonna be great. We're gonna talk about
Speaker 1: your book, which is called Radical Alignment, How to have
Speaker 1: game changing Conversations that will transform your business and your life.
Speaker 1: But before we get into that, we'll start, like we
Speaker 1: always do, with a parable. And in the parable, there
Speaker 1: is a husband talking to his wife. Can I adjust
Speaker 1: it that way? I'm gonna do it. There's a husband
Speaker 1: talking to his wife and he says, in life, there
Speaker 1: are two wolves inside of us that are always a battle.
Speaker 1: One of them is a good wolf, which represents things
Speaker 1: like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is
Speaker 1: a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred
Speaker 1: and fear, and the wife stops and she thinks about
Speaker 1: it for a second and looks at her husband, and
Speaker 1: she says, well, which one wins? And the husband says,
Speaker 1: the one you feed. So I'd like to start off
Speaker 1: by asking you, guys, what that parable means to you
Speaker 1: in your life and in the work that you do.
Speaker 1: You want me to start right, Yeah, I've been thinking
Speaker 1: about this question a lot because I knew it was coming,
Speaker 1: and well, we're big sci fi nerds in this family,
Speaker 1: and so we've been rewatching Buffy the Vampire Slayer Um
Speaker 1: from start to finish again and listening to a podcast.
Speaker 1: So that's kind of how dirty we're getting during the
Speaker 1: pandemic year. But the recent episode, or an episode in
Speaker 1: season one, is all about where people's fears become real.
Speaker 1: You know. That's sort of that typical horror trope where
Speaker 1: someone's afraid of something they're afraid of clowns, and all
Speaker 1: of a sudden, clown with a knife is stalking them,
Speaker 1: you know, in real life, kind of the Freddy Krueger
Speaker 1: sort of thing. And one of the points of the
Speaker 1: episode is that our fears make us who we are,
Speaker 1: Like what we fear actually defines our character in some way.
Speaker 1: And you know, we were talking about morning pages before
Speaker 1: we we got on here, and in my morning pages
Speaker 1: this morning, I began reliving some you know, childhood trauma again.
Speaker 1: You know, like this very specific episode that happened in
Speaker 1: my life that really, I think is one that has
Speaker 1: defined me or the thing that it represents has really
Speaker 1: defined me for much of life. And so I guess
Speaker 1: when I think about this parable, I think that it's
Speaker 1: not just not feeding the fears, but it's also using
Speaker 1: the good parts of ourselves in some way to fight
Speaker 1: the fears, right, in order to overcome the fears. You know,
Speaker 1: our fears can define us in this sort of negative way, right,
Speaker 1: And I've definitely spent years in sort of addictive patterns
Speaker 1: letting my fears run the show. But it was when
Speaker 1: I began to build the muscle to not just fight
Speaker 1: the fears but transform the fears that I feel like
Speaker 1: I actually became the person that I was meant to become.
Speaker 1: And so, you know, I don't see my fears as
Speaker 1: a bad thing. I just see them as a feature
Speaker 1: of my life that I get to choose how to
Speaker 1: react to. So that's what comes to mind for this, Um,
Speaker 1: we have a four well he turns fourteen tomorrow. I
Speaker 1: assume you mean a child, not Bob. A child, not
Speaker 1: a dog or a cat. That's very old, fourteen year
Speaker 1: old human in the house. And when he was about
Speaker 1: six or seven, he it was diagnosed with dyslexia a
Speaker 1: d h D. And it wasn't the diagnosis that did this,
Speaker 1: but it was what was happening in class where he
Speaker 1: started to feel really stupid. He would come home from school,
Speaker 1: this little tiny kid, and say, I hate myself. I'm
Speaker 1: so dumb. I'm not as good as the other kids.
Speaker 1: And I didn't know how to help him except say,
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, you're amazing and I love you and
Speaker 1: you're so great and this is you know, we're going
Speaker 1: to figure this out. I didn't know how to help
Speaker 1: him think his way different to a new place. And
Speaker 1: we came upon this positive psychology program for kids that
Speaker 1: taught them about how the human brain works, and it
Speaker 1: personifies worry and it personifies, you know, the part of
Speaker 1: our brain that can help worry calm down. And it
Speaker 1: was so revelatory for me to learn about those parts
Speaker 1: of the brain and how we could engage with and
Speaker 1: care for that part of ourselves that's afraid. And I
Speaker 1: mean we got so into it. Bob and I both
Speaker 1: went back to school and God certified and applied positive
Speaker 1: psychology after because we realize, oh my gosh, this isn't
Speaker 1: just helping our kid. We need this and all of
Speaker 1: our clients need this. And the more and more tools
Speaker 1: I got to help myself and other people think differently
Speaker 1: about you know, where my feeding the energy here. But
Speaker 1: I also I'm really a staunch advocate for acknowledging and
Speaker 1: honoring how you're feeling, like not just glossing over or
Speaker 1: as we like to call spiritual bypassing like you'll be fine,
Speaker 1: or focus on love and light and all the bad
Speaker 1: will go away. I think you really need to honor
Speaker 1: and name how you're feeling and what's going on. Is
Speaker 1: there a cause of it? Is there a root issue
Speaker 1: that needs to be healed, and then what can we
Speaker 1: do to move forward? I love both those, and it
Speaker 1: jumps us ahead a little bit. But your book that
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about is about how to have
Speaker 1: good conversations, and you guys have outlined a four step
Speaker 1: method and the second of those methods is about articulating
Speaker 1: your concerns or your fears. And you make a couple
Speaker 1: of points in there that I love, and we'll get
Speaker 1: to the method in a minute, but one of them
Speaker 1: is that we actually calm our nervous system when we
Speaker 1: speak our concerns out loud, you know. And then the
Speaker 1: second point that you may in there is one of
Speaker 1: my favorite points about this stuff, which is that when
Speaker 1: we get specific about what we're worried about, it transforms anxiety,
Speaker 1: this free floating thing, into fear. And that when our
Speaker 1: fears are specific, there are a lot easier for us
Speaker 1: to deal with. There are a lot more manageable. You know.
Speaker 1: We tend to get into these things where like everybody's
Speaker 1: going to hate me, Well, who's everybody? Right? If you
Speaker 1: can start to define that. So I think that what
Speaker 1: you guys just said really ties closely to that second
Speaker 1: step in your overall process. Yeah, we tend to catastrophize. Actually,
Speaker 1: we've been going through an episode again with our son
Speaker 1: this week around around schoolwork. You know, school is not
Speaker 1: easy at this time, and you know we're all I
Speaker 1: think we're all struggling a little bit with it. But
Speaker 1: it turns very quickly from I don't understand this too.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I'm not going to ever go outside
Speaker 1: again because you're going to hate me and ground me
Speaker 1: or you know whatever the cat you know, and I
Speaker 1: and listening to that, I recognize it in myself, you know,
Speaker 1: like that's exactly what I do at the times when
Speaker 1: I let fear overtake me or concern or anxiety overtake me.
Speaker 1: It's a morphous and non specific, but when I get
Speaker 1: really specific about it, it becomes a much more manageable problem. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's helped me so much. Well, I'm not going to
Speaker 1: say help because that's a judgment about whether or not
Speaker 1: I'm a good parent. It has definitely informed how I parent.
Speaker 1: I mean from such a young age. I probably picked
Speaker 1: this up from somebody much smarter than me. But they're like,
Speaker 1: don't try to teach your kids something while they're having
Speaker 1: a meltdown. Yes, like, if they're freaking out or sobbing,
Speaker 1: don't try to like explain something or ask them why
Speaker 1: they did something like. The brain's not working at that point,
Speaker 1: so just be with them, sit with them, or give
Speaker 1: them quiet space to shop for a while. And then
Speaker 1: includes our inner children too, like it's such good advice
Speaker 1: for me adult inner children. Yeah, like, I'm not going
Speaker 1: to try to I'm just gonna soothe myself right now.
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna go for a bike ride or yeah,
Speaker 1: calm myself down in some way. You guys talk about
Speaker 1: that later on in the book, but you talk about
Speaker 1: times not to have a conversation. So again, the book
Speaker 1: is I'm kind of jumping around here. The book is
Speaker 1: about how to have better conversations, meaningful conversations, and a
Speaker 1: lot of these better meaningful conversations are tough conversations. And
Speaker 1: you guys talk about you know, there's there's times that
Speaker 1: are good to have those, and there are early times
Speaker 1: that are not. Say a little more about that. Oh
Speaker 1: my gosh. I think the most important thing to remember
Speaker 1: is that we are brains living in bodies. We're still animals.
Speaker 1: Like we're animals humans and we need to feel good
Speaker 1: and be in a good place physically to talk about
Speaker 1: things important. So if you're tired or hungry, or have
Speaker 1: had even one glass of alcohol, those are three bare
Speaker 1: minimum rules, like we don't talk about anything heavy or important,
Speaker 1: like nothing too late, nothing after eight pm gets discussed.
Speaker 1: We just wait until tomorrow. Yeah, anything after about two pm.
Speaker 1: I've got this window from one thirty to two. If
Speaker 1: you want to catch me. You're not wrong. We've learned,
Speaker 1: and it's like it seems so simple, like oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: have you eaten? No, okay, let's eat and then we'll talk.
Speaker 1: That has saved us countless arguments. I think the book
Speaker 1: is still surprising to me and surprising to us, because
Speaker 1: you know, our work is not just this book, right.
Speaker 1: This book ties into the stuff we do, which is
Speaker 1: either about helping teams perform better or helping leaders become
Speaker 1: better leaders and work with teams. So we're you know,
Speaker 1: we're coaches both for teams and and for and for leaders.
Speaker 1: And I think we both realized after a while that
Speaker 1: we had developed this tool that was really serving us.
Speaker 1: You know, I mentioned that I have some history of trauma,
Speaker 1: and I think one place that really was serving us
Speaker 1: was when when I was dealing with my family, I
Speaker 1: would become a different kind of person, and I would
Speaker 1: become a kind of person that I didn't enjoy very much,
Speaker 1: and yet I still wanted to remain connected to my family,
Speaker 1: and so taking my new partner to see my family
Speaker 1: was a stressful situation, and so we developed this tool
Speaker 1: in part to handle those situations, and we realized that
Speaker 1: it's not rocket science, like it's nothing too complex. It's
Speaker 1: really just breaking things down into some very very clear
Speaker 1: steps that helped us sort of process the emotions better
Speaker 1: and be in a better space. And even now, like then,
Speaker 1: we started teaching the tool to other people and people
Speaker 1: kept coming back to us and it just seems so straightforward,
Speaker 1: like we're just going to talk about our intentions, concerns, boundaries,
Speaker 1: and desires or dreams for this particular situation that we're
Speaker 1: heading into, and that I think that clears like of
Speaker 1: the stress or it gets to that specific place that
Speaker 1: you were just talking about, right, like, Oh, that's why
Speaker 1: we're doing this, that's what our attention is. Oh okay,
Speaker 1: well that's why we're doing it. Then all of these
Speaker 1: other decisions kind of can get made and be clear,
Speaker 1: so you just sort of kind of clear out the
Speaker 1: emotional clutter. Yeah. I think that you're right that the
Speaker 1: model that you guys have and you just articulated it
Speaker 1: really quickly. Intentions, concerns, boundaries, and dreams is not rocket science,
Speaker 1: but it is helpful to have simple frameworks. You know,
Speaker 1: I find that a lot of times people who are
Speaker 1: listening to a show like this, some people are kind
Speaker 1: of new to this stuff, but a lot of people
Speaker 1: have been around this block a bunch of times, right,
Speaker 1: And so it's not really about did I hear something
Speaker 1: I didn't know and I learned something I'd never heard.
Speaker 1: It's really about is there a framework or a way
Speaker 1: that I can put this together that allows me to
Speaker 1: actually apply it to my life? How does it actually apply?
Speaker 1: And that's what I like about this model is it says, Okay,
Speaker 1: if I'm about to go into a difficult conversation, here's
Speaker 1: a way to think about it. You guys say, don't
Speaker 1: if you're angry, hungry, or have had alcohol. You use
Speaker 1: the acronym A h A. I'm curious. I've heard a
Speaker 1: little talk about recovery. That's a coming out of recovery
Speaker 1: is another very similar acronym, halt Right, don't allow yourself
Speaker 1: to get hungry, angry, lonely, or tired. You might think
Speaker 1: you need a drink, when really what you need is
Speaker 1: food to calm down, take a nap, or talk to someone. Yeah. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: And I think that's where I came from we're like, oh, halt,
Speaker 1: but with an extra a that twelve step would automatically
Speaker 1: include most twelve stup. Anyway, that not having a conversation
Speaker 1: when you're tired points to a bit of wisdom that
Speaker 1: still seems to be floating around in certain circles, though
Speaker 1: I'm hoping it's quickly getting banished. Which is never go
Speaker 1: to bed angry, which is, to me, an absolute recipe
Speaker 1: for disaster. We wholeheartedly agree that is a one relationship
Speaker 1: truism that we never do. I'm like, let's just go
Speaker 1: to bed, We'll figure it out tomorrow. And often when
Speaker 1: we wake up like, oh that, you know what, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1: That wasn't a thing, Like it just vanishes versus let's
Speaker 1: just hash this out till four in the morning, over
Speaker 1: and over, because I'm so clear, I'm passionate when I'm tired.
Speaker 1: I've had too many of those in my life. It
Speaker 1: makes me shudder a little bit to think about some
Speaker 1: of them. I am glad to have learned not to
Speaker 1: do that. Let's move into a little bit more about
Speaker 1: this idea of radical alignment. That's the title of the book.
Speaker 1: What is radical alignment and why is it important? So again,
Speaker 1: I mentioned you know that that we work with teams,
Speaker 1: and we also work with leaders, and also we care
Speaker 1: about our relationship a great deal. I guess I could
Speaker 1: share like Alex is not my first wife, she nor
Speaker 1: is she my second wife I I have. I've been
Speaker 1: through this a few times, relationships or something I've struggled
Speaker 1: with much of my life. To the way we we
Speaker 1: really think about it is that it's all relationships all
Speaker 1: the way down, whether you're at work or whether you're
Speaker 1: in her personal life, if you're trying to live a
Speaker 1: happy life, if you're trying to be effective, if you're
Speaker 1: trying to do something of import whether it's raised a
Speaker 1: child or start a business, it's all about having other
Speaker 1: people in your life and having other people on your team.
Speaker 1: And there's different ways to get people aligned. And I
Speaker 1: think we've all worked for bosses, are you know, been
Speaker 1: partners or been with partners who have tried to, you know,
Speaker 1: kind of bully their way into alignment, right, like like
Speaker 1: do what I say, And there's always this kind of
Speaker 1: underlying threat that if you don't do what I say,
Speaker 1: you're going to get fired. I've been that kind of boss,
Speaker 1: and I have worked for many bosses like that in
Speaker 1: my life. And I think we've both just realized that
Speaker 1: there is another way, or there has to be another
Speaker 1: way in a business world, like being good to each
Speaker 1: other is actually good business. And you know, we're just
Speaker 1: a few few days after the passing of Tony Shea,
Speaker 1: who was someone who was really inspiring to me because
Speaker 1: he had this philosophy and I knew people who worked
Speaker 1: with him and worked for him over the years to
Speaker 1: empower the people inside the organization to be fully themselves
Speaker 1: and then to align them around a common vision. And
Speaker 1: I think that kind of spirit and not not necessarily
Speaker 1: the methodologies are not necessarily the framework, but that kind
Speaker 1: of spirit, at least in a business context, really sits
Speaker 1: at the heart of our work. That you you come
Speaker 1: as a full person, as a unique person, and then
Speaker 1: you align your work and your effort and your energy
Speaker 1: around this common vision. And I also believe that that's
Speaker 1: the spirit with which we approach our relationship as well.
Speaker 1: I love the word radical because when we were first
Speaker 1: thingking how to name the books like radicals, Like yeah,
Speaker 1: like power. I mean it's like a very like you know,
Speaker 1: agitating kind of feel to it. But another route definition
Speaker 1: of radical is the center like the radius, and we
Speaker 1: have to talk about how like we're both really like
Speaker 1: truth seekers, Like what's the real truth to this, what's
Speaker 1: the real real of what we're trying to do here?
Speaker 1: And so when I think of radical alignment, it's like
Speaker 1: really authentic putting it all out on the table to
Speaker 1: find the true path forward, not out of manipulation, not
Speaker 1: out of capitulation, but like, can we do this together
Speaker 1: in a way that's really honoring our full selves. One
Speaker 1: of the things that you say at a point in
Speaker 1: the book that I really love is that the point
Speaker 1: of this method is to make more of the relational
Speaker 1: iceberg visible, and that idea in general, I love that
Speaker 1: so much of this work, whatever it is, any of
Speaker 1: this personal development work, is taking this unconscious stuff that
Speaker 1: drives us and moving it up to being conscious. And
Speaker 1: I love the idea of the point of your method
Speaker 1: is to make more of the relational iceberg visible. Because
Speaker 1: what I know I have done a big part of
Speaker 1: my life and I have to work against is just
Speaker 1: with relationships. If I don't see it, let's just stay
Speaker 1: away from it. I know it's lurking there under the surface.
Speaker 1: Let's just stay away from it, versus saying let's intentionally
Speaker 1: go find those things. Let's find the iceberg that's under
Speaker 1: the water, and let's make it visible, which is really
Speaker 1: courageous work. We like to call these four buckets that
Speaker 1: we walk through the four steps as like the missing
Speaker 1: conversations that most of us don't specifically go into these
Speaker 1: four areas when discussing a topic. We make a lot
Speaker 1: of assumptions and it leads to a total lack of
Speaker 1: true clarity. Yeah, I'm going to say there are two
Speaker 1: reasons we don't have these conversations. They're probably more, but
Speaker 1: I think I can think of two right now. That one,
Speaker 1: we just don't have a framework to do it right,
Speaker 1: We don't make the time to do it, we don't
Speaker 1: have the steps. It doesn't fit in. And that leads
Speaker 1: to the second one, which is the only time we
Speaker 1: then have the conversation. Let's say that we have a
Speaker 1: misalignment around our intentions around something is once that boundary
Speaker 1: has been crossed, once somebody feels violated, when someone feels upset.
Speaker 1: So we're trying to have a conversation about something that's
Speaker 1: already difficult in a moment when it's heated, when feelings
Speaker 1: are hurt when people are feeling extra protective. And so
Speaker 1: the idea behind the framework is, well, before we do
Speaker 1: anything else, before we even start planning the project, let's
Speaker 1: say it's a work project or personal vacation. Before you
Speaker 1: even start planning, let's just get clear on what we're
Speaker 1: talking about here. Let's just get clear on what's up
Speaker 1: for you, what you're bringing to the table, both in
Speaker 1: terms of your energy and your desires, your fears and
Speaker 1: your boundaries. Let's just get really clear on that, and
Speaker 1: I'm going to share with you mine, and then we
Speaker 1: might discover along the way that whatever it was we
Speaker 1: were intending to do together was actually kind of a
Speaker 1: bad idea, because you know, we're so far apart that
Speaker 1: maybe we should not plan this thing at all, or
Speaker 1: that we just need to add kind of certain features
Speaker 1: to it in order to kind of how everybody feel
Speaker 1: like they're going to get what they want out of
Speaker 1: this thing. So let's go ahead and go into the
Speaker 1: method before listeners go. If you tell me one more
Speaker 1: time about it without telling me about it, I'm going
Speaker 1: to stop listening. Let's move into the four steps of
Speaker 1: the conversation. Well before we do that, There's one thing
Speaker 1: I want to say about inviting people to a converse Asian,
Speaker 1: because this is something that I screwed up around so
Speaker 1: many times, which is the basics are the last thing
Speaker 1: anyone wants to hear is we need to talk to
Speaker 1: invite someone to a tough conversation or a tough topic.
Speaker 1: Please don't say we need to talk. Approach it maybe lighter, like, hey,
Speaker 1: do you have time on Saturday or tomorrow to talk
Speaker 1: about X? So that we can figure out what the
Speaker 1: best steps are. Something light and simple like that is
Speaker 1: a lot more inviting. I've invited people via email and
Speaker 1: text also if it feels too much to do face
Speaker 1: to face. Yeah, and offering people to framework ahead of
Speaker 1: time sometimes helps as well. So we have you know,
Speaker 1: like a cheat sheet that we offer on our website.
Speaker 1: There's also stuff and you know, things in the book.
Speaker 1: Sometimes that can really be helpful because you're giving people
Speaker 1: steps and you're making it safer. But yeah, the invitation
Speaker 1: defining who needs to be a part of our conversation
Speaker 1: and what the conversation is really about, because you know,
Speaker 1: you mentioned like getting specific, like that's where the specificity starts,
Speaker 1: you know, because sometimes conversations to start with, I'm upset
Speaker 1: about this vague I'm upset about money. Okay, well wait
Speaker 1: a minute, let me do a little bit of work.
Speaker 1: What am I really wanting to talk about. I'm actually
Speaker 1: wanting to talk about the budget for our upcoming vacation,
Speaker 1: not money as this giant topic which includes retirement savings,
Speaker 1: which includes you know, the paying the mortgage, which includes salary,
Speaker 1: you know, all of these other things. So sometimes we
Speaker 1: want to just narrow the topic down before we even start,
Speaker 1: so figure and also figuring out who needs to be
Speaker 1: a part of the conversation. Sometimes sometimes it's quite obvious,
Speaker 1: and sometimes it's a little bit more mysterious because as
Speaker 1: you get down to the topic, you're like, oh, no, wait,
Speaker 1: I need to include this person and not this person.
Speaker 1: So that's the first start. So then when you go
Speaker 1: into it, you agree to take turns and not talk
Speaker 1: over each other. And that's a really helpful way, Like
Speaker 1: we're not going to argue with each other, We're just
Speaker 1: really listening to each other about these four topics for
Speaker 1: project X or vacation. Why. Yeah, we're just sharing information.
Speaker 1: That's the whole spirit of the thing. And sometimes we
Speaker 1: even set a timer. I'll give you two minutes, you
Speaker 1: give me two minutes. Um. We've run this with groups
Speaker 1: of sixty people at times online and sometimes you know,
Speaker 1: so we change sort of methodologies. But the idea is
Speaker 1: to give everybody equal speaking time, to not have cross talk, right,
Speaker 1: to not have people sort of talking over each other
Speaker 1: or um or or responding to what someone else is saying.
Speaker 1: Because the spirit is, I'm just going to share my
Speaker 1: information and then once we get all the information out,
Speaker 1: once we close this conversation, then we can move on
Speaker 1: to where we might normally start the conversation, which is
Speaker 1: around planning and around you know, your plans and other intentions.
Speaker 1: So let's say we want to go on vacation to
Speaker 1: visit your mom. Is that a vacation trip? Let's call
Speaker 1: it stands silent on this one. So what are your
Speaker 1: intentions and going to visit your mom? Some intentions always
Speaker 1: with visiting my mom is too you know, she's ninety now,
Speaker 1: so is to stay connected to her and uh, stay
Speaker 1: connected to my own legacy in a way, my own
Speaker 1: my own family, my own emotional legacy, my own historical legacy.
Speaker 1: I heard someone say a little while ago, like something
Speaker 1: you can really do for your A good act in life,
Speaker 1: sort of a growth act in life, is to give
Speaker 1: somebody a good death. And I know that's kind of
Speaker 1: sounds kind of grim. Even though our relationship has been
Speaker 1: difficult for most of my life, there is something about
Speaker 1: of being of service to her that makes me feel
Speaker 1: like a bigger person, makes me feel like a happier person,
Speaker 1: and it helps me grow. And so going to see
Speaker 1: her is part of that. What would your intentions be
Speaker 1: with going to see my mother? My intentions are really
Speaker 1: just to support you. You know. I like to get
Speaker 1: out of the house, and I like that there's a
Speaker 1: lot of bird life where she lives. I think family
Speaker 1: is important. That's one of my values. But I feel
Speaker 1: a little bit obligated to go. Just side note here,
Speaker 1: it's okay to, you know, be honest about why you're
Speaker 1: in it. Why would you even do this thing? Like
Speaker 1: if you're talking about work, you can say, well, I'm
Speaker 1: here to make money. You know, that's an okay answer. Okay,
Speaker 1: to be really honest about why you want to do something. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And what we're really talking about is values, right, It's
Speaker 1: very specific to you when you're asking when change the
Speaker 1: question why am I spending time on something? We are
Speaker 1: asking or answer the question, what do you value? What
Speaker 1: is important about this thing? So you mentioned obligation, which
Speaker 1: also in some way, and you also mentioned supporting me.
Speaker 1: What I hear is that one of your values is
Speaker 1: our relationship is supporting me in being the person that
Speaker 1: I need to be, or are taking care of the
Speaker 1: things that I feel are important to me. That's very cool.
Speaker 1: So what are your fears or worries or concerns about
Speaker 1: this trip? So many this is step two of the
Speaker 1: method is step two Step two for those following at home.
Speaker 1: We're taking we're taking turns, we're active listening. We might
Speaker 1: even ask each other questions, but we're not going to
Speaker 1: respond necessarily. And by the way, this is a conversation
Speaker 1: we've had a thousand times probably, but we still have it.
Speaker 1: We still have it every single time because we learned
Speaker 1: something new every time we do anything. So my concerns
Speaker 1: are always that I'm going to indulge in self pity
Speaker 1: or get angry easily, or feel upset, feel put upon
Speaker 1: by her, and that that will impact you, that I'll
Speaker 1: behave in a way towards you that I don't want
Speaker 1: to behave, and I'm just concerned that I'm going to
Speaker 1: feel bad. You know that, you know, like that she'll
Speaker 1: she'll say something about my hair or my tattoos, and
Speaker 1: I will take it personally. My mom can't leave my
Speaker 1: mohawk alone, just can't not comment on it. Yeah, cannot
Speaker 1: not comment on his tattoos or my hair or my beard.
Speaker 1: You're a looking a little scruffy, bob. I do. It's
Speaker 1: my look, you know, it's style like pandemic barber yourself.
Speaker 1: So my concerns are that will both be stressed out
Speaker 1: and we won't sleep well, and that will be even
Speaker 1: more grouchy. That I will gravitate towards all the sugary
Speaker 1: foods while I'm there to try to like self soothe,
Speaker 1: and then I'll feel even worse. I won't be able
Speaker 1: to hold back from a comment that your mom has made,
Speaker 1: and I'll say something to her, which will just make
Speaker 1: everything worse. Honestly, I'm afraid that we'll fight and we'll
Speaker 1: get divorced and I'll die alone under a bridge. Like
Speaker 1: That's the ultimate end of all of my fears is
Speaker 1: I will lose everything because of this and I'll die alone.
Speaker 1: So I have to share. Like, one part about fears
Speaker 1: when we encourage people to share their fears and share
Speaker 1: their concerns, is that fears are often quite irrational, but
Speaker 1: that doesn't mean they shouldn't be shared. That doesn't mean
Speaker 1: that they shouldn't be voiced. That, you know, because they
Speaker 1: actually removes power, Like as soon as you say that, right,
Speaker 1: it lightens them. We mentioned sort of some neuroscience research
Speaker 1: that talks about when you say something and hear it
Speaker 1: at the same time, that it actually does impact the
Speaker 1: way your brain works. But I also just think it
Speaker 1: adds like sometimes I hear stuff coming out of my
Speaker 1: mouth and I'm like, oh my god, that's just so ridiculous. Yeah, yeah, Okay,
Speaker 1: now I feel a little bit more relaxed. So step three.
Speaker 1: Step three is boundaries, and two questions that you can
Speaker 1: use to help figure out your boundaries are what do
Speaker 1: you need to be your best? And what do you
Speaker 1: need to feel safe? And we also like to remember
Speaker 1: that we're not ordering off a menu. This isn't a
Speaker 1: list of demands. Necessarily, you might not get everything you want,
Speaker 1: but you might, so you know, sharing them here in
Speaker 1: this space will help you all figure out if you
Speaker 1: can make them all possible. Yeah, so what are your boundaries?
Speaker 1: By the way, I'm gonna just give some boundaries that
Speaker 1: we've developed over the years. Um. The first is no
Speaker 1: more than two nights, you know, staying in my mother's town.
Speaker 1: Also staying at a hotel and not staying with her.
Speaker 1: Also making sure that we get personal time, not necessarily together,
Speaker 1: but that we each get a loane time, um, and
Speaker 1: that I exercise while I'm there. So those are always
Speaker 1: super healthy boundaries. And then the third one no drinking,
Speaker 1: no glass of wine with dinner, no cocktail, and even
Speaker 1: though that's a steady pull among my family, do without that.
Speaker 1: And if I do eat sugar, it'll be very limited,
Speaker 1: you know, maybe one cookie or something like that, allow
Speaker 1: myself a little bit of an indulgence. Something else we've
Speaker 1: developed over time, which might be a little shocking to people.
Speaker 1: It's not a boundary that we have every time, but
Speaker 1: we don't often take our son to visit anymore because
Speaker 1: there were members of the family that were rude disrespectful
Speaker 1: to him, and we realized, oh, we don't have to
Speaker 1: perpetuate family trauma and bad behavior, like we don't have
Speaker 1: to subject him to stuff that we had to endure
Speaker 1: just because it's family, Like we can actually just leave
Speaker 1: him with his dad that weekend. That's okay. So that's
Speaker 1: been really interesting, like we've gotten really clear what's good
Speaker 1: for us. Well, I would also find that it would
Speaker 1: re traumatized me, Like watching how he got treated was like, oh,
Speaker 1: that's how I got treated, And all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: my inner child is now being treated in that way
Speaker 1: and having way too much empathy or way too much
Speaker 1: empathic pain, which really accentuated things for me. And then
Speaker 1: I couldn't feel protective towards it. It just it was
Speaker 1: it was a bad spiral. So yeah, yeah, I've noticed
Speaker 1: similar things with my son. He's older now, he's a
Speaker 1: senior in college, but I would notice those sort of
Speaker 1: things in certain family situations. I don't know that I
Speaker 1: was wise enough when he was young to be like, well,
Speaker 1: I'm just not going to put him in it, but
Speaker 1: I would notice it, just the stray comment, not at
Speaker 1: all like what it was for me, But I would
Speaker 1: find myself so angry. Yeah yeah, me too, me too. Um.
Speaker 1: And by the way, we have this conversation with him
Speaker 1: often about stuff like this, and man, I wish people
Speaker 1: had taught me how to do this kind of thing
Speaker 1: when I was younger. Boundaries, what are those? We're supposed
Speaker 1: to have boundaries, boundaries and concerns are really the toughest part,
Speaker 1: and we love to end on a high note, so
Speaker 1: we quest that you do it specifically in this order
Speaker 1: and end on dreams. This is where you come back
Speaker 1: together and you share your highest hopes, like if this
Speaker 1: were to go amazingly, well, what would be true for
Speaker 1: me and for you? Like what do I want for
Speaker 1: you and for us as a family. And when you
Speaker 1: share your dreams with people, like it's really hard for
Speaker 1: me to not want your dreams to happen for you.
Speaker 1: And so then you come back together as a team,
Speaker 1: like you start releasing some oxytocin together and you're like, okay.
Speaker 1: Then it puts you in the state where you can
Speaker 1: actually work together on any points of friction that evolved.
Speaker 1: And it may sound kind of weird to talk about
Speaker 1: dreams when there's something really stressful. We ran like a
Speaker 1: thousand couples through this process at the beginning of the
Speaker 1: pandemic when people were going into lockdown, and it seems
Speaker 1: kind of weird to ask, like, what are your dreams
Speaker 1: about a global pandemic, but we find it really it's
Speaker 1: really essential, right, It's not that everything is a silver lining,
Speaker 1: not the sort of spiritual bypassing that that that can
Speaker 1: be so toxic and annoying, But it is important, I think,
Speaker 1: to put ourselves in mind of what is the best
Speaker 1: possible outcome for this. You know. Intention is just like
Speaker 1: why I'm going or why I'm doing this thing. But
Speaker 1: dreams is really, well, if this were to be the
Speaker 1: best possible version of this thing, what would be true
Speaker 1: at the end of it? How would I feel? What
Speaker 1: would you know? If it's a business thing, like what
Speaker 1: kind of business metrics are going to move and how
Speaker 1: far and those kinds of things. But we like this
Speaker 1: one to be really visceral, like really like, well, here's
Speaker 1: where I'm sitting in this place, and I'm feeling this
Speaker 1: way because this has just happened, you know, or something
Speaker 1: like that. So in the case of this, it's like
Speaker 1: we're driving home, I'm reminiscing because there have been some
Speaker 1: moments of sweetness while I was there, because my child
Speaker 1: had had sweet moments, and like I would get to
Speaker 1: remember some of those, like look at an old picture
Speaker 1: or tell an old story at the family stories to
Speaker 1: come up the ones that delight me rather than the
Speaker 1: ones that embarrass and annoyed me. Some of those would
Speaker 1: have happened. And that you and I are feeling closer
Speaker 1: together as a result of the experience we've had, that
Speaker 1: we're not feeling just I'm not kind of putting it
Speaker 1: in its opposite, but you know that we're not feeling that,
Speaker 1: we're actually feeling closer and more bonded because we've been
Speaker 1: through something together and and we've handled it well. And
Speaker 1: I think that the main thing is I'm proud of myself,
Speaker 1: Like I'm proud of how I behaved. I'm proud of
Speaker 1: how I showed up. Yeah. My dream for us is
Speaker 1: that we both feel really relaxed and satisfied as we're
Speaker 1: driving away from your mom's house, like she's happy, she
Speaker 1: feels like seen and nourished, and that we feel like
Speaker 1: we got some rest and relaxation and maybe saw some
Speaker 1: cool birds while we were there. Yeah, I went to
Speaker 1: the garden when when bird watching. Yeah, And that's it.
Speaker 1: That's it. That's all you gotta do. Simple, that's all
Speaker 1: you gotta do. Share those four things with each other.
Speaker 1: And if there were any problems that really need to
Speaker 1: be addressed, or boundaries that you have to refine or
Speaker 1: agree to. Now you know all the pieces that surround it,
Speaker 1: and after you've shared your dreams together, you're much more
Speaker 1: likely to figure out those issues of friction. Are you
Speaker 1: feeling stuck in stagnant when it comes to making progress
Speaker 1: towards your goals? Or do you feel like you're just
Speaker 1: scratching the surface in your life and it's got you
Speaker 1: seeking more meaning, connectedness and growth. Or maybe you've got
Speaker 1: familiarity with spiritual principles like mindfulness, but you can't quite
Speaker 1: figure out how to apply them to your daily life.
Speaker 1: As a spiritual director and transformation and coach, I work
Speaker 1: with people to establish healthy habits for a better, more
Speaker 1: fulfilling life. A couple of things. I help people with
Speaker 1: things like improving your habits and routines to feel stronger,
Speaker 1: achieving your goals so you're more fulfilled, or applying spiritual
Speaker 1: habits to feel more connected. If you're curious to learn
Speaker 1: more about how we might work together to help you grow,
Speaker 1: then you can book a free thirty minute consultation with
Speaker 1: me and there's no pressure to sign up. I am
Speaker 1: not a high pressure salesman under any circumstances. It's just
Speaker 1: a chance for us to talk and see if we're
Speaker 1: a match to work together. So if you are interested,
Speaker 1: go to Eric Zimmer dot coach slash application again, that's
Speaker 1: Eric Zimmer dot coach slash application And I look forward
Speaker 1: to talking with you. If the very least, we'll get
Speaker 1: to know each other and have a nice thirty minute chat.
Speaker 1: You talk about ways of closing the conversation because obviously
Speaker 1: for certain things, this is just the very beginning. You
Speaker 1: guys use the example of the book that you chose
Speaker 1: to write together and how the first step was you
Speaker 1: had a conversation like this to make sure you're both in.
Speaker 1: You went through your intentions, concerns, boundaries, and dreams. But
Speaker 1: then after that there's work to do. I got to
Speaker 1: come up with the plan, got to figure out how
Speaker 1: we're going to do it. There's a lot of stuff
Speaker 1: that comes after this. So this is really just sort
Speaker 1: of the place to start. Yeah. Yeah, and we usually
Speaker 1: we find if we're running with a group, people are
Speaker 1: pretty tired after this. It can be some pretty fefty
Speaker 1: emotional labor. But we'll do you know, like leadership team
Speaker 1: off sites that are sometimes two days where we're working
Speaker 1: through a whole lot of planning or team chartering, you know,
Speaker 1: project planning or either or quarterly planning, those kinds of things,
Speaker 1: and we find that this is a really good kick
Speaker 1: off for that, right. It just sort of sets the tone.
Speaker 1: It gets people connected, it brings people together, and it
Speaker 1: gets all of the information on the table. We find
Speaker 1: that actually allows everything else, you know, the stuff that
Speaker 1: you're gonna do naturally anyway, it allows it to go
Speaker 1: much faster and the conversation itself. What we do say
Speaker 1: in the book, and I think maybe what you're alluding
Speaker 1: to is that there are usually a couple different ways
Speaker 1: it can end. Like one is that we ent up
Speaker 1: with a no like like. So the original version of
Speaker 1: this book was called getting to Hell Yes, and so
Speaker 1: the idea was sometimes what you get to is a
Speaker 1: hell no, right, like, oh my gosh, this thing that
Speaker 1: we were planning to do together, what a bad idea
Speaker 1: that is, you know, And and it becomes very apparent,
Speaker 1: often usually to both people at the same time, or
Speaker 1: all people at the same time, or maybe just one.
Speaker 1: But good solid nose are great to have, right because
Speaker 1: it allows us to back out it allows us to
Speaker 1: be like, Okay, I'm not going to do that, or
Speaker 1: we get to the hell yes, which is wonderful right
Speaker 1: where it's like, oh yeah, now I see more of you,
Speaker 1: you see more of me. There's no tension in any
Speaker 1: of the things that we share with each other. They
Speaker 1: all are are combatible or very similar in some ways. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, ours were not the same when we talked
Speaker 1: about going to see my mother, but they were similar enough.
Speaker 1: This is gonna be a hell yes. But there's that
Speaker 1: middle ground where sort of like, huh, this feels a
Speaker 1: little bit uncomfortable, this feels a little we eard, And
Speaker 1: at that point we find that it's really useful to
Speaker 1: get specific about what those weird things are, what those
Speaker 1: things are that need to be dealt with, and then
Speaker 1: you have to come up with a plan for dealing
Speaker 1: with them. You know, frankly, it could be mediation, right.
Speaker 1: It could be that you know you're you're doing something
Speaker 1: with another person that you have to be with or
Speaker 1: there's a contract involved with but things are so far
Speaker 1: apart that there's just there's so much tension that you
Speaker 1: might actually need to bring in a professionally, might need
Speaker 1: to bring in mediation. We don't run into that much,
Speaker 1: but it maybe the kinds of things we deal with
Speaker 1: don't don't lend themselves to that kind of outcome. We
Speaker 1: have the same exact conversation this summer, and it turned
Speaker 1: out that Bob went alone to visit his mom. We
Speaker 1: were high pandemic times. We realized, oh, I shouldn't even go.
Speaker 1: You go by yourself, don't stay overnight. We found a
Speaker 1: new path forward for it that worked for us. But
Speaker 1: we've had people use it to plan huge weddings involving
Speaker 1: multiple continents and you know, hundreds and hundreds of people.
Speaker 1: We You've had people use it to negotiate a raise
Speaker 1: and a bonus. I'll tell you what we use it
Speaker 1: most for is by ourselves alone with a journal to
Speaker 1: get clear about you know, there's this thing I want
Speaker 1: to do, or there's this thing I'm involved in. What
Speaker 1: are my intentions, what are my concerns? Just really getting
Speaker 1: clear on your own is actually, I think the best
Speaker 1: way to prepare to have the conversation with somebody else
Speaker 1: think through it first. I'm the kind of person that
Speaker 1: needs to like process for a while. I'm not a
Speaker 1: verbal processor. I need to write and think so we'll
Speaker 1: often do this on our own. I think that's probably
Speaker 1: the most common way people use it. Yeah, and the
Speaker 1: solution is usually just become apparent you've gotten all the
Speaker 1: information out there and you've gotten specific enough. Do you
Speaker 1: know Chris Foss's work. He's a hostage negotiator for the FBI.
Speaker 1: He wrote a book called Never Split the Difference, which
Speaker 1: was influential we actually quote in our book. But one
Speaker 1: of the things he talks about is this idea of
Speaker 1: when are negotiating in a really difficult situation, you just
Speaker 1: have to keep developing more empathy for the other person
Speaker 1: and keep getting more information. And as you get more
Speaker 1: empathy and as you get more information, what will happen
Speaker 1: is that the way out of it will emerge. It
Speaker 1: will just come out of that information. It will it will,
Speaker 1: it will emerge from it. And I think, you know,
Speaker 1: we're not dealing with anything nearly as high he's talking about,
Speaker 1: but the same principle applies, right that if I'm just
Speaker 1: with somebody and listening to them, and they're listening to me,
Speaker 1: and we're connecting, and we're developing empathy for each other,
Speaker 1: we're understanding each other's worldview, then the solution will emerge.
Speaker 1: And whether that solution is to not do this thing
Speaker 1: at all, as I've said, or to do this thing
Speaker 1: with some kind of modifications, or just to keep going
Speaker 1: and to get into the planning stage, all of those
Speaker 1: things can work. So I like the idea of using
Speaker 1: it yourself to sort of reflect through things. One of
Speaker 1: the things that someone listening might think, or or I
Speaker 1: might have a moment of think, is you guys have
Speaker 1: a good relationship, so this works. But Bob, you sounds
Speaker 1: like you've been in some previous situations I certainly have.
Speaker 1: Does this help heal relationships? Or like, how does this
Speaker 1: fit into the realm of we're a couple and we
Speaker 1: communicate poorly with each other? I would say we have
Speaker 1: a good relationship because we use this. Look at that, Um,
Speaker 1: we were both crap at tough talks in our previous relationships.
Speaker 1: I just avoided most tough conversations throughout my life. UM,
Speaker 1: so yes, it will feel clunky at first. We've definitely
Speaker 1: had people report back I felt, or my husband felt,
Speaker 1: or my partner felt like it's weird to go through
Speaker 1: a process to talk about something important. And my question
Speaker 1: to you is, well, you've tried it not structured. Most
Speaker 1: of your life or your relationship hasn't had structured conversation before, Like, really,
Speaker 1: how's that going? You know, here's the basic question. Are
Speaker 1: you willing to try something different? Are you willing to
Speaker 1: agree to some basic ground rules? Just we won't talk
Speaker 1: over each other, We're not going to argue where this
Speaker 1: is fact finding, this is information gathering, and we're going
Speaker 1: to follow these four prompts. How about we try it
Speaker 1: three times and give it a shot. And we've just
Speaker 1: heard so many wonderful stories from people. One of my
Speaker 1: clients who got a huge raise and got a huge
Speaker 1: bonus using this conversation with her boss also used it too.
Speaker 1: I mean, she just got married. She had never had
Speaker 1: a relationship longer than a few months before. You know,
Speaker 1: she's got an incredible new relationship newly married, and she's like,
Speaker 1: I didn't know how to talk before. Now I know
Speaker 1: what's missing and what I was avoiding talking about. You
Speaker 1: guys say early on, and I think this sentence is
Speaker 1: worth its weight in gold, which listen with compassion and
Speaker 1: curiosity and speak with courage and vulnerability. Just that simple idea,
Speaker 1: if we could keep that in mind, goes a long way. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think it's really essential and thank you for bringing it.
Speaker 1: And I've done this in previous relationships where I've looked
Speaker 1: to counseling or look to a nonviolent communication or other
Speaker 1: frameworks to to sort of fix my relationship by which
Speaker 1: I have meant fix my partner. Right, if I can
Speaker 1: just communicate my demands in a better way, then they
Speaker 1: will hear them and do what I want them to do.
Speaker 1: That that's so funny and that's so true, right, And
Speaker 1: so often I think when we talk about communication as
Speaker 1: a way to heal a relationship, we're talking about, well, like,
Speaker 1: how do I say this thing so this person will
Speaker 1: hear me? But really communication is actually more about listening,
Speaker 1: and it's being about willing to hear the hard stuff, um,
Speaker 1: willing to be curious about your partner, and being willing
Speaker 1: to share the things that are difficult for you to
Speaker 1: share it actually being willing to dig deep. One other
Speaker 1: pattern we've seen is sometimes couples will come to us
Speaker 1: and they'll say, I really want to help, you know,
Speaker 1: work with my partner. And then we'll talk to you know,
Speaker 1: one or both partners, and we realize that somebody's really
Speaker 1: not on board here. You know, somebody is really not
Speaker 1: terribly self aware or they're hiding something, and we're not therapists.
Speaker 1: So if both people are coming to the table, or
Speaker 1: if all people are coming to the table in good faith,
Speaker 1: then this can help quite a bit. And still you
Speaker 1: may discover along the way that separation is perhaps the
Speaker 1: ideal thing. When I look back on my old relationships,
Speaker 1: the ones that were most traumatic for me, they were
Speaker 1: traumatic because I held onto them longer than I should have,
Speaker 1: because I didn't learn that very important. I think a
Speaker 1: lot of people learned this in high school. They learned
Speaker 1: how to break up with somebody and be like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: we're just not a match. That's so advanced. Well, they
Speaker 1: do want Dawson's Creek anyway, or something, you know TV.
Speaker 1: I learned how to like hold on and hold on
Speaker 1: and hold on, And that was my own irrational, trauma
Speaker 1: informed or trauma sourced needs that were again trying to
Speaker 1: shape my partner, trying to hold on to her connection
Speaker 1: or her affection at all costs, rather than listen to
Speaker 1: what she really needed, and rather than be honest about
Speaker 1: what I really needed and realize that this may not
Speaker 1: be a match. Excellent. Well we are at time here.
Speaker 1: I have really enjoyed this conversation. We're going to continue
Speaker 1: in the post show conversation, and Bob, you teased me
Speaker 1: with this before we started, so I'm gonna have to
Speaker 1: bring it out because you seem like a relatively down
Speaker 1: to earth, reasonable rational guy. Most of our listeners are
Speaker 1: gonna think that, and then you're gonna tell us about
Speaker 1: being an occult for two years. So we're going to
Speaker 1: discuss that in the post show conversation. Listeners, if you'd
Speaker 1: like access to that, you can go to one you Feed,
Speaker 1: dot net slash Join, get post show conversations, ad free episodes,
Speaker 1: and all sorts of other wonderful things like the joy
Speaker 1: of supporting something you value. So when you Feed dot
Speaker 1: net slash joint, Alex and Bob thank you so much.
Speaker 1: I really did enjoy this and I got to really
Speaker 1: just sort of step back here and let you guys
Speaker 1: do the work. It was lovely. Thank you, thank thank you.
Speaker 1: If what you just heard was helpful to you, please
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