WEBVTT - Getting Inside Government Is Good Business 0:00:02.480 --> 0:00:13.440 Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. Well, Elon Musk is 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:15.360 now the richest person on the planet. 0:00:15.680 --> 0:00:18.560 More than half the satellites in space are owned and 0:00:18.640 --> 0:00:20.360 controlled by one man. 0:00:21.000 --> 0:00:22.840 Well, he's a legitimate super genius. 0:00:23.040 --> 0:00:26.160 I mean legitimate. He says he's always voted for Democrats, 0:00:26.160 --> 0:00:27.600 but this year it will be different. 0:00:27.640 --> 0:00:28.600 He'll vote Republican. 0:00:28.880 --> 0:00:31.360 There is a reason the US government is so reliant 0:00:31.400 --> 0:00:31.760 on him. 0:00:31.960 --> 0:00:35.000 Alon Musk is a scam artist and he's done nothing. 0:00:36.159 --> 0:00:38.920 Anything he does, he's fascinating people. 0:00:49.240 --> 0:00:52.520 Welcome to elan Ink, Bloomberg's weekly podcast about Elon Musk. 0:00:52.560 --> 0:00:56.880 It's Tuesday, February eleventh. I'm your host, David Papadopoulos. Today 0:00:56.960 --> 0:01:01.959 we're talking about what else do Since we last gathered here, 0:01:02.160 --> 0:01:05.280 Musk and his band of doze zealots have burrowed themselves 0:01:05.319 --> 0:01:08.319 into many corners of the federal government as they frantically 0:01:08.360 --> 0:01:12.399 pursued their goal of gutting what they deem wasteful. The 0:01:12.440 --> 0:01:15.280 pushback from courses across the country's mounting. Now the question, 0:01:15.880 --> 0:01:18.560 or one of the questions, is will Musk and the 0:01:18.600 --> 0:01:23.679 Trump administration heed the judge's warnings. And then yesterday afternoon, 0:01:23.760 --> 0:01:27.320 a bombshell dropped. Elon was leading a group of investors 0:01:27.360 --> 0:01:31.440 offering ninety seven zero point four billion dollars to acquire 0:01:31.520 --> 0:01:36.280 open Ai. Is Elon, sirius? Is he just trolling? Is 0:01:36.319 --> 0:01:39.600 he messing with rival? Sam Altman, who should be noted, 0:01:39.920 --> 0:01:45.760 quickly rejected the bid. To talk Doze, we have Dana Hall. Hey, 0:01:45.760 --> 0:01:50.120 they're Dana Hey, David and Max Schaffkin. Max, how you doing? 0:01:50.400 --> 0:01:50.760 David? 0:01:50.880 --> 0:01:55.800 Hello, Hello, as well as Bloomberg political reporter Josh Wingrove 0:01:55.960 --> 0:01:58.720 dialing in from Washington. Josh, welcome, sir. 0:01:58.760 --> 0:02:01.320 Thank you for having me. It's an eventful time. 0:02:01.640 --> 0:02:04.760 Indeed it is. And then later on we will welcome 0:02:04.800 --> 0:02:07.480 back a special guest, a guy fast on his way 0:02:07.480 --> 0:02:11.440 to earning official friend of POD's status. New York Magazine 0:02:11.440 --> 0:02:14.160 tech writer John Herman to talk about what he calls 0:02:14.200 --> 0:02:16.960 the Elon bailout, as well as the latest chapter of 0:02:17.000 --> 0:02:21.600 the musk Open Ai saga. Okay, Josh, so we're going 0:02:21.680 --> 0:02:25.160 to start with you there. Doge is on the rampage. 0:02:25.480 --> 0:02:28.280 Bring our audience up to speed. It's all happening fast 0:02:28.320 --> 0:02:32.160 and furious. Give us the last seventy two hours in 0:02:32.280 --> 0:02:33.520 the Doge universe. 0:02:34.480 --> 0:02:37.000 I mean, they are trying to dive into everything, and 0:02:37.040 --> 0:02:40.960 Trump has given them license to hit every department, including Defense, 0:02:41.040 --> 0:02:44.600 including education, including Treasury, of course, where a lot of 0:02:44.639 --> 0:02:47.320 the news has been focused in this past week. But 0:02:47.560 --> 0:02:49.360 just to give you a scene, like every time a 0:02:49.400 --> 0:02:53.240 headline drops on something they're doing or something that makes 0:02:53.400 --> 0:02:57.000 Democrats heads explode or you know whatever, we all go 0:02:57.000 --> 0:02:58.639 to the White House for comment, and they've been sort 0:02:58.639 --> 0:03:01.320 of like dancing around it a little bit, but Trump 0:03:01.400 --> 0:03:05.840 himself consistently really leans in on this to give sort 0:03:05.880 --> 0:03:08.720 of license essentially to what Elon Musk is doing with. 0:03:08.760 --> 0:03:11.560 Though Josh really leans into what exactly. 0:03:11.280 --> 0:03:16.320 Trump is leaning into endorsing what Musk is doing. He 0:03:16.440 --> 0:03:19.280 putting in caveats here and there, but generally speaking, when 0:03:19.280 --> 0:03:21.359 we asked him about it, as was the case a 0:03:21.400 --> 0:03:23.400 couple of days ago, as he flew to the super Bowl, 0:03:23.680 --> 0:03:26.320 you know, he's sort of blessing he's standing by Elon, 0:03:26.400 --> 0:03:29.400 and every time Musks gets in Trump, you kind of wonder, oh, 0:03:29.480 --> 0:03:31.240 is this the moment where they're going to crack, because 0:03:31.240 --> 0:03:32.560 this is the moment where Trump is going to start 0:03:32.560 --> 0:03:34.920 distancing himself, and we just haven't had that happen right 0:03:34.920 --> 0:03:38.160 now on the contrary, Trump is really you know, stuck 0:03:38.200 --> 0:03:41.240 close to him. And like, for an example, on Sunday, 0:03:41.280 --> 0:03:43.640 Trump called us up to the front of the plane 0:03:43.640 --> 0:03:45.840 as he flew to the super Bowl. You know, he 0:03:45.880 --> 0:03:47.800 had a big sign that's a Gulf of America. We 0:03:47.800 --> 0:03:49.960 were over the Gulf of Now, I guess you're. 0:03:49.880 --> 0:03:52.520 The Gulf of America. Yeah, by the way, now to 0:03:52.560 --> 0:03:55.360 be seen on Google maps the Gulf of America. 0:03:54.960 --> 0:03:57.960 Max apparently, depending on where you are. But he, you know, 0:03:58.080 --> 0:04:00.920 held court for a while and talked about this, and 0:04:00.920 --> 0:04:04.840 in particular wandered even into the notion of treasuries being something. 0:04:04.960 --> 0:04:08.240 So just for a second for our audience, treasuries, US 0:04:08.400 --> 0:04:12.120 treasury bonds. This is the debt the United States government 0:04:12.120 --> 0:04:15.240 has taken on to finance. It's spending when it spends 0:04:15.320 --> 0:04:17.240 more than it takes it in revenue, which is the 0:04:17.279 --> 0:04:18.760 case in just about each and every year. And I 0:04:18.800 --> 0:04:23.440 think nowadays there's roughly about thirty trillion dollars give or 0:04:23.520 --> 0:04:25.280 take of US treasury debt out there. 0:04:25.440 --> 0:04:27.320 It's more than that now, but yeah, there's a lot 0:04:27.320 --> 0:04:29.040 of it out there. Thirty six I think it was 0:04:29.080 --> 0:04:32.400 maybe a more recent number. And the reporting until now 0:04:32.440 --> 0:04:34.560 is that the Musk and the Doge team at Treasury 0:04:34.560 --> 0:04:38.320 have been focusing on payments that Treasury is sending out, 0:04:38.360 --> 0:04:41.440 but Trump sort of suggested that it went even beyond that, 0:04:41.440 --> 0:04:44.640 that it wasn't just sending out payments that Trump's team 0:04:44.640 --> 0:04:47.160 thinks you shouldn't send out. That it was oh, maybe 0:04:47.200 --> 0:04:49.359 the debt that we have isn't as big as we 0:04:49.480 --> 0:04:51.800 thought it was. And that really raised eyebrows because then 0:04:52.240 --> 0:04:54.320 it raised the notion that we were talking not just 0:04:54.360 --> 0:04:58.160 about treasury payments, but that this sort of fraud hunt 0:04:58.680 --> 0:05:01.440 extended even towards the debt. And of course, the notion 0:05:01.520 --> 0:05:03.880 that the US might start, you know, wavering on whether 0:05:03.920 --> 0:05:06.560 it consider it's it's debt legit or not, you know, 0:05:06.640 --> 0:05:08.599 has the potential to rattle market. So that kind of 0:05:08.640 --> 0:05:11.240 that that that rattled things. I think, I think just 0:05:11.320 --> 0:05:14.560 overall on this, Trump is framing this as fraud to 0:05:14.600 --> 0:05:18.120 give it political license. He's saying that he was elected 0:05:18.120 --> 0:05:19.920 to get rid of fraud and that Elon is doing 0:05:19.920 --> 0:05:22.039 his work for him. So he's pushing back on the 0:05:22.040 --> 0:05:26.120 suggestion that Musk is you know, an unelected guy sort 0:05:26.120 --> 0:05:28.800 of marauding through the government, controlling with the keys to 0:05:28.880 --> 0:05:31.400 everything right. So Trump is not only standing by him, 0:05:31.400 --> 0:05:32.560 he's like writing in a blanket. 0:05:32.560 --> 0:05:35.560 He's saying, you know, Elon Musk is my guy. Max fraud, 0:05:35.680 --> 0:05:36.920 fraud everywhere. 0:05:37.040 --> 0:05:38.920 I don't know what he's talking about with the Treasury thing. 0:05:39.200 --> 0:05:43.200 My best guess is that it's like a calculation question. 0:05:43.240 --> 0:05:45.279 It's like it's like how they're going to decide to 0:05:45.360 --> 0:05:48.000 calculate the amount of debt or something like. 0:05:47.960 --> 0:05:50.800 That, Max, are redefaulting. Just tell me we're defaulting. I 0:05:50.839 --> 0:05:51.280 want to know. 0:05:51.960 --> 0:05:55.200 I think one of the reasons that they're talking about fraud, 0:05:55.240 --> 0:05:57.599 I mean, I think it's both because of who Elon is, 0:05:57.640 --> 0:06:01.080 but also politically right, Like a lot of the stuff 0:06:01.080 --> 0:06:06.479 that Elon is walking towards is super unpopular, and you know, 0:06:06.480 --> 0:06:10.400 whether it's like cutting NIH funding. You know, the NIH 0:06:10.560 --> 0:06:13.200 is a major cause of a lot of jobs and 0:06:13.240 --> 0:06:15.200 a lot of red states, and you can kind of 0:06:15.200 --> 0:06:17.839 go down all these charities that they were attacking. There 0:06:17.839 --> 0:06:20.760 are lots of things they're doing that voters, senators, congress 0:06:20.760 --> 0:06:23.200 people are not gonna like. So that's why they're keeping 0:06:23.279 --> 0:06:24.800 it focused on fraud. 0:06:24.800 --> 0:06:27.480 I think I would just like to remind the listeners 0:06:27.520 --> 0:06:30.640 that this whole idea of doge was Elon's idea. He 0:06:30.760 --> 0:06:34.680 proposed it to Trump on an audio spaces in August 0:06:34.760 --> 0:06:38.000 and basically pushed Trump to say yes. And so I 0:06:38.040 --> 0:06:40.240 get super frustrated when I see stories that are like 0:06:40.600 --> 0:06:43.520 Trump has tapped Musk to like lead an efficiency effort. 0:06:43.560 --> 0:06:44.760 This was Musk's plan. 0:06:45.120 --> 0:06:47.080 This is Musk tap Musk. 0:06:47.360 --> 0:06:48.240 Musk pitch this. 0:06:48.240 --> 0:06:51.640 Job for himself and has been given carte blanche from 0:06:51.640 --> 0:06:54.520 the executive from the administration to do what he's doing. 0:06:55.279 --> 0:06:58.600 Congress is totally flat flooted and has been completely supine 0:06:58.640 --> 0:07:00.800 and has rolled over and abdicate. I mean, the whole 0:07:00.839 --> 0:07:03.520 concept of separation of powers is being eroded. And now 0:07:03.560 --> 0:07:07.200 you're seeing must go after the judiciary whenever there's like 0:07:07.240 --> 0:07:10.120 a judge filing like a stay or a tro like 0:07:10.280 --> 0:07:12.520 Musk is basically calling out the judge on X. So 0:07:13.120 --> 0:07:16.200 like we're seeing like the whole concept of balance of 0:07:16.240 --> 0:07:20.040 power completely be eroded, and nothing is going to stop 0:07:20.080 --> 0:07:22.800 Elin at the moment as far as I can tell, 0:07:23.480 --> 0:07:25.440 and they are already signaling that they're not going to 0:07:25.520 --> 0:07:28.440 go along with what the judge says. So and to 0:07:28.760 --> 0:07:31.480 Josh's point, like the fact that Musk is doing this 0:07:32.040 --> 0:07:36.360 with this sort of widespread power that Trump is supporting him, 0:07:36.480 --> 0:07:39.480 and that Congress is sort of left flat footed kind 0:07:39.480 --> 0:07:41.239 of works in the administration's favor. 0:07:41.440 --> 0:07:44.640 So Josh on that point that Dana raises on this 0:07:44.760 --> 0:07:51.480 administration and Musk's Doze team challenging courts and clearly pushing 0:07:51.520 --> 0:07:54.760 through things that they know themselves are very much in 0:07:54.800 --> 0:07:58.600 a gray area of the law, and then also to 0:07:58.640 --> 0:08:01.480 a certain extent saying well, well, you know, we'll see 0:08:01.480 --> 0:08:05.040 how much we abide by what the court says. Presidents 0:08:05.080 --> 0:08:07.360 going back for years have pushed the boundaries of the 0:08:07.440 --> 0:08:11.120 law and then seeing how the courts reacted. Just how 0:08:11.280 --> 0:08:13.480 different is this time around. 0:08:13.880 --> 0:08:17.360 I mean, Trump, with every day, you know, challenges, at 0:08:17.360 --> 0:08:21.200 the very least sort of the perceived limits of the 0:08:21.200 --> 0:08:24.800 power of the presidency. He really believes in consolidating power. 0:08:25.240 --> 0:08:27.200 Even his sort of go to move these first two 0:08:27.240 --> 0:08:30.960 weeks executive orders, those are usually pretty flimsy. I mean, 0:08:30.960 --> 0:08:33.360 they're sometimes not worth the paper that they're printed on, 0:08:33.760 --> 0:08:36.679 but Trump is wielding them like royal decrees and people 0:08:36.720 --> 0:08:39.480 are bound to that. So he kind of has kind 0:08:39.480 --> 0:08:41.760 of shifted the Overton window on what like an executive 0:08:41.840 --> 0:08:45.280 order is and therefore what presidential authority is, and so 0:08:45.960 --> 0:08:48.120 Elon continues to test that. I think there are a 0:08:48.120 --> 0:08:50.200 couple things to watch for. Number one is do the 0:08:50.280 --> 0:08:54.679 secretaries start pushing back, right because he's mucking around in 0:08:54.720 --> 0:08:57.640 the back rooms of the Department of the Treasury, the 0:08:57.679 --> 0:09:00.719 Department of Education, the Department of whatever. And as long 0:09:00.720 --> 0:09:04.400 as the secretaries are buying into that, you know, no problem. 0:09:04.640 --> 0:09:06.720 But if they start pushing back against that, then you 0:09:06.760 --> 0:09:09.000 start to get power struggles and power struggles. Of course, 0:09:09.040 --> 0:09:12.520 we're a defining feature of the first Trump administration so 0:09:12.679 --> 0:09:15.520 far sort of you know, kept down in the second 0:09:15.559 --> 0:09:19.040 Trump administration. But if that starts happening, you know, who 0:09:19.040 --> 0:09:20.400 knows how that's going to shake out. 0:09:20.760 --> 0:09:25.480 Scott Bessen is one that I yeah, Treasure Sector last week, 0:09:25.760 --> 0:09:28.480 you know, Musk they had this whole you know, back 0:09:28.480 --> 0:09:31.160 and forth over does he have read only access? And 0:09:31.160 --> 0:09:33.720 and Trump was saying, you know, Trump and the Trump 0:09:33.720 --> 0:09:36.000 administration was essentially saying that, look, he can he can 0:09:36.000 --> 0:09:38.079 look at the data, but he can't do anything with it. 0:09:38.200 --> 0:09:40.800 And then musco'es on Twitter and says there are still. 0:09:40.600 --> 0:09:44.079 Billions of payments in fraud going through the Treasury payment system, 0:09:44.080 --> 0:09:47.520 which kind of sounds like an attack on Scott Bessen, right, 0:09:47.600 --> 0:09:49.520 You're you're sort of saying like, uh, Scott Besson doesn't 0:09:49.559 --> 0:09:52.320 have control all this. And again, this thing that Josh 0:09:52.360 --> 0:09:54.760 brought up earlier, it's some idea that maybe some of 0:09:54.800 --> 0:09:56.640 the bonds that we have or you know, we don't 0:09:56.640 --> 0:09:58.319 have to pay the debt on or whatever like. It 0:09:58.559 --> 0:10:02.319 definitely seems like that is undermining part of what Scott 0:10:02.360 --> 0:10:05.200 Besen has to do, and you could imagine that leading 0:10:05.320 --> 0:10:06.079 to conflict. 0:10:06.600 --> 0:10:10.679 Now, Dana, as Josh was intimating, Musk and his crew 0:10:10.960 --> 0:10:13.800 are about to head into the Department of Defense. They 0:10:13.880 --> 0:10:18.280 are there already. The stakes once they're in there, for 0:10:18.360 --> 0:10:21.959 any number of reasons, suddenly really ratchet up quite a bit. 0:10:22.280 --> 0:10:24.720 Yeah, and that's because the Defense Department is a huge 0:10:24.720 --> 0:10:27.760 part of our overall budget, and because Musk is a 0:10:27.760 --> 0:10:30.680 defense contractor, so SpaceX has a lot of contracts with 0:10:30.720 --> 0:10:34.599 the Department of Defense for both rocket launches and starlink, 0:10:34.720 --> 0:10:38.439 and he has said quite publicly, including during a conversation 0:10:38.559 --> 0:10:41.800 at West Point, that the future of warfare is AI 0:10:42.080 --> 0:10:45.040 and drones. Well, guess who has an AI company? Elon Musk, 0:10:45.320 --> 0:10:48.680 Guess who has you know, makes military hardware and drones. 0:10:48.920 --> 0:10:51.360 You know his buddies at and Drurro. So you're going 0:10:51.440 --> 0:10:53.360 to see a real shift in terms of the way 0:10:53.520 --> 0:10:56.920 the Pentagon does procurement, and Elon and his friends have 0:10:56.960 --> 0:10:58.320 an enormous amount of gain. 0:10:58.200 --> 0:10:59.920 There attempted shift. 0:11:00.000 --> 0:11:01.960 Oh for sure that the it's just going to actually 0:11:01.960 --> 0:11:04.360 happen because again, same thing I brought up about the 0:11:04.440 --> 0:11:07.280 NIH and I've said this before on this podcast, these 0:11:07.320 --> 0:11:10.800 defense contractors are major job creators. I don't know that 0:11:10.880 --> 0:11:13.480 Musk is going to have as much rope as people 0:11:13.520 --> 0:11:14.439 think he will. 0:11:14.200 --> 0:11:14.880 Cutting the defense. 0:11:15.000 --> 0:11:17.679 Well, again because of the conflicts of interest, and because 0:11:17.840 --> 0:11:19.000 we're talking about jobs. 0:11:19.120 --> 0:11:22.840 I think going after USAID and it's roughly what Josh, 0:11:22.880 --> 0:11:26.240 forty billion dollars year budget that largely of course goes 0:11:26.240 --> 0:11:30.280 overseas to people who do not vote in US elections, 0:11:30.320 --> 0:11:35.200 is one thing. Going after large contracts for the military 0:11:35.240 --> 0:11:39.120 industrial complex I think is an entirely different thing. The 0:11:39.160 --> 0:11:42.200 Secretary Defense Pete has Get says he welcomes Elon with 0:11:42.240 --> 0:11:45.120 open arms. That one is going to be very interesting 0:11:45.120 --> 0:11:46.839 to see how it plays out now, Josh, but they're 0:11:46.880 --> 0:11:49.600 on the ground in DC. What is the mood on 0:11:49.679 --> 0:11:53.600 the Democrat side, my understanding is their phone lines are 0:11:53.679 --> 0:11:58.880 blowing up from irate constituents saying, damn it, do something. 0:11:59.200 --> 0:12:02.720 What's the sense there? Where do they stand in forming 0:12:02.840 --> 0:12:05.560 a credible opposition to Musk and Trump. 0:12:05.920 --> 0:12:09.520 They're in a really tough spot because conservatives are mostly 0:12:09.559 --> 0:12:12.079 delighting in what Musk is doing. I think that that's 0:12:12.120 --> 0:12:14.760 an important factor to look at here. If people think 0:12:14.800 --> 0:12:17.080 that there's some sort of pressure building up on Trump 0:12:17.160 --> 0:12:21.080 within the Republican Party, within the broader conservative movement, it's 0:12:21.240 --> 0:12:23.720 just not there. And so for Democrats when they go 0:12:23.760 --> 0:12:26.360 and do some you know, stunt or whatever, trying to 0:12:26.400 --> 0:12:29.520 like go into these agencies that are being dismantled, the 0:12:29.559 --> 0:12:32.840 problem is that that only sort of feeds the perception 0:12:32.960 --> 0:12:35.920 that is delighting conservatives who are wanting Trump to really 0:12:36.120 --> 0:12:39.480 make structural changes to the broader state. And so that 0:12:39.640 --> 0:12:42.080 is really the trap that they're in. Not only are Democrats, 0:12:42.120 --> 0:12:45.320 of course, you know, kind of rudderless right now, but 0:12:45.640 --> 0:12:48.520 more broadly, they don't really have any tools that would 0:12:48.520 --> 0:12:50.800 be effective to sort of crank up the pressure on this, 0:12:50.880 --> 0:12:54.439 whether it's at USA AID or others. The blowback that 0:12:54.600 --> 0:12:57.480 Max alluded to is going to come more from when 0:12:57.480 --> 0:13:00.520 they start hitting red states, for instance, when banks gets 0:13:00.600 --> 0:13:01.640 hit by funding cuts. 0:13:01.960 --> 0:13:04.040 Max. That is a good point that according to a 0:13:04.040 --> 0:13:07.600 CBS poll they came out. I believe on Monday, Donald 0:13:07.600 --> 0:13:11.360 Trump's approval numbers are up since his inauguration. I believe 0:13:11.640 --> 0:13:15.600 Americans a greater number of Americans now approve of him 0:13:15.640 --> 0:13:17.680 and what he's doing visa v from before. 0:13:18.480 --> 0:13:21.760 It's true, although Elon Musk's numbers are not haven't looked 0:13:21.760 --> 0:13:23.920 so good. There's been a couple of poles I haven't looked. 0:13:23.920 --> 0:13:25.480 I don't know if anything's come out this week, but 0:13:25.559 --> 0:13:27.800 last week there were two poles, you know, showing that 0:13:27.880 --> 0:13:31.080 Musk's numbers had fallen since the election pretty badly. So 0:13:31.960 --> 0:13:34.200 I think Josh is right, like I think, and what 0:13:34.240 --> 0:13:36.480 you're saying, like picking on these kind of soft targets 0:13:36.520 --> 0:13:40.040 like USAID or whatever, like the pain is going to 0:13:40.080 --> 0:13:40.520 come later. 0:13:40.640 --> 0:13:43.480 The pain for Trump politically is you've. 0:13:43.280 --> 0:13:45.400 Made a lot of promises and like, what have you 0:13:45.480 --> 0:13:48.720 actually done except for so a lot of chaos, right, 0:13:48.720 --> 0:13:50.840 Like fifty billion dollars is not that too much money 0:13:51.120 --> 0:13:52.920 in the scheme of things and a lot of these 0:13:52.960 --> 0:13:56.920 things that Musk has done either. They sound very dramatic, 0:13:56.960 --> 0:13:59.520 and there's been a real cost for the civil service, 0:13:59.600 --> 0:14:02.719 but it's not clear that he's gonna come away from 0:14:02.760 --> 0:14:05.400 this having achieved a whole lot. And then if you 0:14:05.440 --> 0:14:09.080 put that on top of you know, creating chaos in 0:14:09.160 --> 0:14:12.360 red states or or pissing off voters, I mean, you know, 0:14:12.360 --> 0:14:16.800 we are seeing some activation of grassroots Democrats. 0:14:17.120 --> 0:14:19.400 This reminds me actually that we're still playing out. I 0:14:19.440 --> 0:14:22.760 believe as we speak is the Musk team's offer of 0:14:23.040 --> 0:14:26.160 buyouts to all federal employees. I think we're still I 0:14:26.160 --> 0:14:27.880 think that's been paused by a judge. Yeah. 0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:30.880 Yeah, And so far they've got sixty thousand people. They 0:14:30.880 --> 0:14:34.000 get one hundred thousand retirements each year, so like that 0:14:34.160 --> 0:14:36.400 is not a big number, that's a small number. And 0:14:36.880 --> 0:14:41.360 so again like tons of talk, tons of chaos, pain 0:14:41.440 --> 0:14:43.400 in a very few specific areas. But I don't know 0:14:43.760 --> 0:14:46.560 that he's actually done all that much despite the crisis 0:14:46.600 --> 0:14:47.720 that that Dennis. 0:14:47.520 --> 0:14:49.560 Well, one thing that he has done, and with this 0:14:49.840 --> 0:14:52.920 we will wrap here on this first segment, is you know, 0:14:53.000 --> 0:14:55.280 I was dead wrong. I thought the first thing those 0:14:55.400 --> 0:14:57.720 was going after was daylight savings and that they were 0:14:57.720 --> 0:15:00.560 going to make it permanent. And I'm a little disappointed 0:15:00.600 --> 0:15:06.080 that they have not gone pennies. You got it a penny. 0:15:06.280 --> 0:15:08.560 Whoever's pushing back on the death of the penny, just 0:15:08.720 --> 0:15:10.680 zip it, man, I mean, the penny's gotta go it. 0:15:10.800 --> 0:15:15.120 The penny is truly absurd. And after they're done with 0:15:15.160 --> 0:15:17.040 the penny, Max, they can go for the nickel. Max 0:15:17.360 --> 0:15:18.840 Bold bold. 0:15:18.640 --> 0:15:20.600 Talk from Bobdopolis over here. 0:15:21.200 --> 0:15:24.480 Wow, when you're done Nix and the penny, Nicks the nickel, 0:15:24.760 --> 0:15:27.320 Josh Wingrove, you are going to be a or You 0:15:27.480 --> 0:15:29.920 already are a very very busy man, and you will 0:15:29.920 --> 0:15:31.920 continue to be so and as a result, we will 0:15:31.920 --> 0:15:33.160 have you back on again soon. 0:15:33.400 --> 0:15:35.440 Thank you all for having me. I'll keep letting you 0:15:35.480 --> 0:15:36.880 know when we see him in the White House. 0:15:41.120 --> 0:15:45.160 Okay, we're now joined by John Herman, New York Magazine 0:15:45.200 --> 0:15:48.160 tech writer. John. Welcome back to the show. Thanks for 0:15:48.200 --> 0:15:50.840 having me. Okay, John, So you were last on a 0:15:50.920 --> 0:15:52.920 year ago. Man, we were so young and innocent. 0:15:53.120 --> 0:15:54.640 Porn. We were talking about porn. 0:15:54.840 --> 0:15:57.320 We're just you know, and god, what do we you know? 0:15:57.440 --> 0:15:59.480 What do we know? We had no idea what we 0:15:59.480 --> 0:16:01.240 were in store for, and Musk was really if you 0:16:01.240 --> 0:16:03.480 think about it, he was essentially a nobody, right right, 0:16:04.560 --> 0:16:08.240 And now every time you shake the magic eight ball 0:16:08.560 --> 0:16:10.520 and see something goes on in the world, it just 0:16:10.600 --> 0:16:14.840 comes up Musk. Now, John, you have written a piece 0:16:15.320 --> 0:16:18.280 recently where you lay out what you believe to be 0:16:18.880 --> 0:16:21.640 the bailout, as you call it, that Elon is getting 0:16:21.880 --> 0:16:25.000 as he jumps into the government and does all these things, 0:16:25.080 --> 0:16:28.000 and is he buddies up with with Trump. I got 0:16:28.000 --> 0:16:30.800 to tell you just off the bat, I'm going and 0:16:30.840 --> 0:16:33.080 I'm a little dubious on this bailout thing here, So 0:16:33.200 --> 0:16:34.160 convince me of it. 0:16:34.360 --> 0:16:36.680 Yeah, I mean, as a term it's a little provocative, 0:16:36.720 --> 0:16:40.040 But I do think this is a strange time, confusing time, 0:16:40.080 --> 0:16:42.320 and it's helpful to sort of back up and try to, 0:16:42.560 --> 0:16:44.680 you know, in the spirit of the show, look at 0:16:44.880 --> 0:16:47.200 you know, Elon Musk first principles and try to figure 0:16:47.200 --> 0:16:49.680 out what's going on. On one hand, you've got someone 0:16:49.800 --> 0:16:54.760 who is very open about like attempting to mingle his 0:16:54.800 --> 0:16:57.680 own business interests in ways that are often unconventional and 0:16:57.720 --> 0:17:00.480 in some cases like challenged in court. So his portfolio 0:17:00.480 --> 0:17:03.680 of companies is like used, you know, to support one 0:17:03.720 --> 0:17:08.280 another in ways that are you know, he has a 0:17:08.680 --> 0:17:11.680 sort of fundamental belief that he his success is sort 0:17:11.680 --> 0:17:13.480 of fused with the fate of the world, that he 0:17:13.600 --> 0:17:16.480 is sort of destined to save the world. He says 0:17:16.520 --> 0:17:18.680 this all the time. You can, you know, doubt his sincerity, 0:17:18.720 --> 0:17:21.440 but in my view, it's it's you know, real in 0:17:21.800 --> 0:17:24.720 some sense, he's really like, you know, he believes that 0:17:24.760 --> 0:17:26.520 what he's doing is this, and I think. 0:17:26.440 --> 0:17:28.160 The three of us here, Max, Dan and I all 0:17:28.240 --> 0:17:30.120 very much believe that he does. 0:17:30.400 --> 0:17:32.520 So we've got those first principles. Now, what happens if 0:17:32.560 --> 0:17:35.640 you add the United States government to that portfolio of companies. 0:17:35.880 --> 0:17:38.199 In the view of someone who thinks this way, you 0:17:38.280 --> 0:17:40.800 start to think about how the government helps Musk, and 0:17:41.000 --> 0:17:42.800 he tends to talk about more how how Musk can 0:17:42.840 --> 0:17:45.159 sort of change the government. So you've already talked on 0:17:45.160 --> 0:17:48.720 this show about the obvious overlap with companies like SpaceX, 0:17:49.040 --> 0:17:51.920 which has enormous contracts with different agencies and different parts 0:17:51.920 --> 0:17:54.320 of the government. And and we'll have even more through 0:17:54.560 --> 0:17:58.840 through Starlink. We can talk about Tesla, various subsidies things. 0:17:58.840 --> 0:18:03.240 So, how does Musk's relationship with this administration, his very 0:18:03.960 --> 0:18:08.560 cozy relationship with this government help for instance, X right. 0:18:08.680 --> 0:18:12.919 So SpaceX is an obvious contractor X is like further 0:18:13.080 --> 0:18:15.359 away from what we think of as you know, the 0:18:15.400 --> 0:18:19.520 normal operations of government. But it's Elon Musk's probably most 0:18:19.520 --> 0:18:25.160 distressed asset, not his most financially important. He is using 0:18:25.160 --> 0:18:29.040 it now to sort of like you know, command his 0:18:29.240 --> 0:18:32.399 incursion into government, so it's become very very visible, but 0:18:32.520 --> 0:18:36.639 also like his his proximity to power has real value 0:18:36.640 --> 0:18:39.639 to X. He is currently in the process of suing 0:18:39.720 --> 0:18:42.480 advertisers for what he says is an illegal boycott of 0:18:42.720 --> 0:18:44.840 X right, which is a lawsuit that I think a 0:18:44.840 --> 0:18:47.880 lot of people didn't take very seriously when he first 0:18:47.880 --> 0:18:50.800 filed it. Well it's certainly unconventioned, certainly, but he amended 0:18:50.800 --> 0:18:53.840 it recently. And some of these advertisers are coming back 0:18:54.000 --> 0:18:57.560 because you know, maybe they were content to ignore Elon 0:18:57.640 --> 0:19:00.119 Musk before he was the president's right hand man. 0:19:00.160 --> 0:19:01.960 John John, I will just warn you that the last 0:19:01.960 --> 0:19:05.560 person who said on this podcast that that the advertisers 0:19:05.560 --> 0:19:10.480 were coming back got blown up by Max, So you know, no, 0:19:10.960 --> 0:19:14.080 they're not that coming back is coming back. Mean, Hey, 0:19:14.240 --> 0:19:16.919 here's two chits, here's two tokens. I'll put on your 0:19:16.920 --> 0:19:19.560 board to you know, to appease mister Musk. Are they 0:19:19.560 --> 0:19:20.840 really coming. 0:19:20.520 --> 0:19:23.399 Back the numbers, I mean, we don't know the full numbers, 0:19:23.440 --> 0:19:26.080 but they are signaling that they're, you know, more open 0:19:26.080 --> 0:19:27.000 to coming back than they were. 0:19:27.119 --> 0:19:27.720 That's one piece. 0:19:27.920 --> 0:19:30.159 Another piece is that AX is sort of becoming a 0:19:30.200 --> 0:19:33.320 little bit like truth social This extension of the government 0:19:33.320 --> 0:19:37.199 communications program the the NTSB, for example, announced in a 0:19:37.359 --> 0:19:39.479 in a post on X that was where they were 0:19:39.520 --> 0:19:42.119 going to be messaging about recent air disasters, which is, 0:19:42.160 --> 0:19:44.480 you know, a small thing but also potentially a sign 0:19:44.520 --> 0:19:45.359 of like a bigger thing. 0:19:45.440 --> 0:19:47.639 Right. This is an extension of the Max Chafkin theory 0:19:47.680 --> 0:19:49.800 that that's what X has become. It's become the media 0:19:49.960 --> 0:19:50.880 ar you're just I mean. 0:19:50.840 --> 0:19:54.000 But this is like the least important of Musks companies 0:19:54.000 --> 0:19:56.800