1 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:13,440 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. Well, Elon Musk is 2 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:15,360 Speaker 1: now the richest person on the planet. 3 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:18,560 Speaker 2: More than half the satellites in space are owned and 4 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 2: controlled by one man. 5 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 1: Well, he's a legitimate super genius. 6 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:26,160 Speaker 2: I mean legitimate. He says he's always voted for Democrats, 7 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 2: but this year it will be different. 8 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 1: He'll vote Republican. 9 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 2: There is a reason the US government is so reliant 10 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 2: on him. 11 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 3: Alon Musk is a scam artist and he's done nothing. 12 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:38,920 Speaker 4: Anything he does, he's fascinating people. 13 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:52,520 Speaker 2: Welcome to elan Ink, Bloomberg's weekly podcast about Elon Musk. 14 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 2: It's Tuesday, February eleventh. I'm your host, David Papadopoulos. Today 15 00:00:56,960 --> 00:01:01,959 Speaker 2: we're talking about what else do Since we last gathered here, 16 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 2: Musk and his band of doze zealots have burrowed themselves 17 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:08,319 Speaker 2: into many corners of the federal government as they frantically 18 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:12,399 Speaker 2: pursued their goal of gutting what they deem wasteful. The 19 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 2: pushback from courses across the country's mounting. Now the question, 20 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:18,560 Speaker 2: or one of the questions, is will Musk and the 21 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:23,679 Speaker 2: Trump administration heed the judge's warnings. And then yesterday afternoon, 22 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:27,320 Speaker 2: a bombshell dropped. Elon was leading a group of investors 23 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 2: offering ninety seven zero point four billion dollars to acquire 24 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 2: open Ai. Is Elon, sirius? Is he just trolling? Is 25 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:39,600 Speaker 2: he messing with rival? Sam Altman, who should be noted, 26 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:45,760 Speaker 2: quickly rejected the bid. To talk Doze, we have Dana Hall. Hey, 27 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 2: they're Dana Hey, David and Max Schaffkin. Max, how you doing? 28 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 3: David? 29 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 2: Hello, Hello, as well as Bloomberg political reporter Josh Wingrove 30 00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 2: dialing in from Washington. Josh, welcome, sir. 31 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 5: Thank you for having me. It's an eventful time. 32 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 2: Indeed it is. And then later on we will welcome 33 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 2: back a special guest, a guy fast on his way 34 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 2: to earning official friend of POD's status. New York Magazine 35 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 2: tech writer John Herman to talk about what he calls 36 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 2: the Elon bailout, as well as the latest chapter of 37 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 2: the musk Open Ai saga. Okay, Josh, so we're going 38 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 2: to start with you there. Doge is on the rampage. 39 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 2: Bring our audience up to speed. It's all happening fast 40 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 2: and furious. Give us the last seventy two hours in 41 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:33,520 Speaker 2: the Doge universe. 42 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 5: I mean, they are trying to dive into everything, and 43 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:40,960 Speaker 5: Trump has given them license to hit every department, including Defense, 44 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 5: including education, including Treasury, of course, where a lot of 45 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 5: the news has been focused in this past week. But 46 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:49,360 Speaker 5: just to give you a scene, like every time a 47 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:53,240 Speaker 5: headline drops on something they're doing or something that makes 48 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 5: Democrats heads explode or you know whatever, we all go 49 00:02:57,000 --> 00:02:58,639 Speaker 5: to the White House for comment, and they've been sort 50 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 5: of like dancing around it a little bit, but Trump 51 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:05,840 Speaker 5: himself consistently really leans in on this to give sort 52 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 5: of license essentially to what Elon Musk is doing with. 53 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 2: Though Josh really leans into what exactly. 54 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 5: Trump is leaning into endorsing what Musk is doing. He 55 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 5: putting in caveats here and there, but generally speaking, when 56 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:21,359 Speaker 5: we asked him about it, as was the case a 57 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:23,400 Speaker 5: couple of days ago, as he flew to the super Bowl, 58 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:26,320 Speaker 5: you know, he's sort of blessing he's standing by Elon, 59 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:29,400 Speaker 5: and every time Musks gets in Trump, you kind of wonder, oh, 60 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 5: is this the moment where they're going to crack, because 61 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 5: this is the moment where Trump is going to start 62 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 5: distancing himself, and we just haven't had that happen right 63 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 5: now on the contrary, Trump is really you know, stuck 64 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 5: close to him. And like, for an example, on Sunday, 65 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 5: Trump called us up to the front of the plane 66 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 5: as he flew to the super Bowl. You know, he 67 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 5: had a big sign that's a Gulf of America. We 68 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 5: were over the Gulf of Now, I guess you're. 69 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 2: The Gulf of America. Yeah, by the way, now to 70 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 2: be seen on Google maps the Gulf of America. 71 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 5: Max apparently, depending on where you are. But he, you know, 72 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 5: held court for a while and talked about this, and 73 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 5: in particular wandered even into the notion of treasuries being something. 74 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 2: So just for a second for our audience, treasuries, US 75 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 2: treasury bonds. This is the debt the United States government 76 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 2: has taken on to finance. It's spending when it spends 77 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 2: more than it takes it in revenue, which is the 78 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 2: case in just about each and every year. And I 79 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 2: think nowadays there's roughly about thirty trillion dollars give or 80 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:25,280 Speaker 2: take of US treasury debt out there. 81 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 5: It's more than that now, but yeah, there's a lot 82 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:29,040 Speaker 5: of it out there. Thirty six I think it was 83 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 5: maybe a more recent number. And the reporting until now 84 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 5: is that the Musk and the Doge team at Treasury 85 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 5: have been focusing on payments that Treasury is sending out, 86 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 5: but Trump sort of suggested that it went even beyond that, 87 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 5: that it wasn't just sending out payments that Trump's team 88 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:47,160 Speaker 5: thinks you shouldn't send out. That it was oh, maybe 89 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:49,359 Speaker 5: the debt that we have isn't as big as we 90 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 5: thought it was. And that really raised eyebrows because then 91 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 5: it raised the notion that we were talking not just 92 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:58,160 Speaker 5: about treasury payments, but that this sort of fraud hunt 93 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 5: extended even towards the debt. And of course, the notion 94 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 5: that the US might start, you know, wavering on whether 95 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:06,560 Speaker 5: it consider it's it's debt legit or not, you know, 96 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:08,599 Speaker 5: has the potential to rattle market. So that kind of 97 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 5: that that that rattled things. I think, I think just 98 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:14,560 Speaker 5: overall on this, Trump is framing this as fraud to 99 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 5: give it political license. He's saying that he was elected 100 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:19,920 Speaker 5: to get rid of fraud and that Elon is doing 101 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:22,039 Speaker 5: his work for him. So he's pushing back on the 102 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:26,120 Speaker 5: suggestion that Musk is you know, an unelected guy sort 103 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:28,800 Speaker 5: of marauding through the government, controlling with the keys to 104 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 5: everything right. So Trump is not only standing by him, 105 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:32,560 Speaker 5: he's like writing in a blanket. 106 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 2: He's saying, you know, Elon Musk is my guy. Max fraud, 107 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:36,920 Speaker 2: fraud everywhere. 108 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:38,920 Speaker 3: I don't know what he's talking about with the Treasury thing. 109 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 4: My best guess is that it's like a calculation question. 110 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:45,279 Speaker 4: It's like it's like how they're going to decide to 111 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 4: calculate the amount of debt or something like. 112 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:50,800 Speaker 2: That, Max, are redefaulting. Just tell me we're defaulting. I 113 00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:51,280 Speaker 2: want to know. 114 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 4: I think one of the reasons that they're talking about fraud, 115 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:57,599 Speaker 4: I mean, I think it's both because of who Elon is, 116 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 4: but also politically right, Like a lot of the stuff 117 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:06,479 Speaker 4: that Elon is walking towards is super unpopular, and you know, 118 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 4: whether it's like cutting NIH funding. You know, the NIH 119 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 4: is a major cause of a lot of jobs and 120 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 4: a lot of red states, and you can kind of 121 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:17,839 Speaker 4: go down all these charities that they were attacking. There 122 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 4: are lots of things they're doing that voters, senators, congress 123 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 4: people are not gonna like. So that's why they're keeping 124 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 4: it focused on fraud. 125 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:27,480 Speaker 6: I think I would just like to remind the listeners 126 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 6: that this whole idea of doge was Elon's idea. He 127 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:34,680 Speaker 6: proposed it to Trump on an audio spaces in August 128 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 6: and basically pushed Trump to say yes. And so I 129 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 6: get super frustrated when I see stories that are like 130 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 6: Trump has tapped Musk to like lead an efficiency effort. 131 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:44,760 Speaker 6: This was Musk's plan. 132 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 2: This is Musk tap Musk. 133 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 3: Musk pitch this. 134 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 6: Job for himself and has been given carte blanche from 135 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 6: the executive from the administration to do what he's doing. 136 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:58,600 Speaker 6: Congress is totally flat flooted and has been completely supine 137 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:00,800 Speaker 6: and has rolled over and abdicate. I mean, the whole 138 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 6: concept of separation of powers is being eroded. And now 139 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:07,200 Speaker 6: you're seeing must go after the judiciary whenever there's like 140 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:10,120 Speaker 6: a judge filing like a stay or a tro like 141 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 6: Musk is basically calling out the judge on X. So 142 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 6: like we're seeing like the whole concept of balance of 143 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 6: power completely be eroded, and nothing is going to stop 144 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 6: Elin at the moment as far as I can tell, 145 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 6: and they are already signaling that they're not going to 146 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 6: go along with what the judge says. So and to 147 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 6: Josh's point, like the fact that Musk is doing this 148 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 6: with this sort of widespread power that Trump is supporting him, 149 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 6: and that Congress is sort of left flat footed kind 150 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:41,239 Speaker 6: of works in the administration's favor. 151 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 2: So Josh on that point that Dana raises on this 152 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 2: administration and Musk's Doze team challenging courts and clearly pushing 153 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:54,760 Speaker 2: through things that they know themselves are very much in 154 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 2: a gray area of the law, and then also to 155 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 2: a certain extent saying well, well, you know, we'll see 156 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:05,040 Speaker 2: how much we abide by what the court says. Presidents 157 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 2: going back for years have pushed the boundaries of the 158 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 2: law and then seeing how the courts reacted. Just how 159 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 2: different is this time around. 160 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 5: I mean, Trump, with every day, you know, challenges, at 161 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 5: the very least sort of the perceived limits of the 162 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 5: power of the presidency. He really believes in consolidating power. 163 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 5: Even his sort of go to move these first two 164 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 5: weeks executive orders, those are usually pretty flimsy. I mean, 165 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 5: they're sometimes not worth the paper that they're printed on, 166 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:36,679 Speaker 5: but Trump is wielding them like royal decrees and people 167 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:39,480 Speaker 5: are bound to that. So he kind of has kind 168 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 5: of shifted the Overton window on what like an executive 169 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 5: order is and therefore what presidential authority is, and so 170 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:48,120 Speaker 5: Elon continues to test that. I think there are a 171 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:50,200 Speaker 5: couple things to watch for. Number one is do the 172 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:54,679 Speaker 5: secretaries start pushing back, right because he's mucking around in 173 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 5: the back rooms of the Department of the Treasury, the 174 00:08:57,679 --> 00:09:00,719 Speaker 5: Department of Education, the Department of whatever. And as long 175 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 5: as the secretaries are buying into that, you know, no problem. 176 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:06,720 Speaker 5: But if they start pushing back against that, then you 177 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 5: start to get power struggles and power struggles. Of course, 178 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 5: we're a defining feature of the first Trump administration so 179 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 5: far sort of you know, kept down in the second 180 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 5: Trump administration. But if that starts happening, you know, who 181 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:20,400 Speaker 5: knows how that's going to shake out. 182 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:25,480 Speaker 4: Scott Bessen is one that I yeah, Treasure Sector last week, 183 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:28,480 Speaker 4: you know, Musk they had this whole you know, back 184 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:31,160 Speaker 4: and forth over does he have read only access? And 185 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:33,720 Speaker 4: and Trump was saying, you know, Trump and the Trump 186 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 4: administration was essentially saying that, look, he can he can 187 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:38,079 Speaker 4: look at the data, but he can't do anything with it. 188 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 3: And then musco'es on Twitter and says there are still. 189 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:44,079 Speaker 4: Billions of payments in fraud going through the Treasury payment system, 190 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 4: which kind of sounds like an attack on Scott Bessen, right, 191 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 4: You're you're sort of saying like, uh, Scott Besson doesn't 192 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:52,320 Speaker 4: have control all this. And again, this thing that Josh 193 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 4: brought up earlier, it's some idea that maybe some of 194 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 4: the bonds that we have or you know, we don't 195 00:09:56,640 --> 00:09:58,319 Speaker 4: have to pay the debt on or whatever like. It 196 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:02,319 Speaker 4: definitely seems like that is undermining part of what Scott 197 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:05,200 Speaker 4: Besen has to do, and you could imagine that leading 198 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:06,079 Speaker 4: to conflict. 199 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:10,679 Speaker 2: Now, Dana, as Josh was intimating, Musk and his crew 200 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 2: are about to head into the Department of Defense. They 201 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 2: are there already. The stakes once they're in there, for 202 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:21,959 Speaker 2: any number of reasons, suddenly really ratchet up quite a bit. 203 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 6: Yeah, and that's because the Defense Department is a huge 204 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 6: part of our overall budget, and because Musk is a 205 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:30,680 Speaker 6: defense contractor, so SpaceX has a lot of contracts with 206 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:34,599 Speaker 6: the Department of Defense for both rocket launches and starlink, 207 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:38,439 Speaker 6: and he has said quite publicly, including during a conversation 208 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 6: at West Point, that the future of warfare is AI 209 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:45,040 Speaker 6: and drones. Well, guess who has an AI company? Elon Musk, 210 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:48,680 Speaker 6: Guess who has you know, makes military hardware and drones. 211 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 6: You know his buddies at and Drurro. So you're going 212 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 6: to see a real shift in terms of the way 213 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:56,920 Speaker 6: the Pentagon does procurement, and Elon and his friends have 214 00:10:56,960 --> 00:10:58,320 Speaker 6: an enormous amount of gain. 215 00:10:58,200 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 3: There attempted shift. 216 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:01,960 Speaker 4: Oh for sure that the it's just going to actually 217 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 4: happen because again, same thing I brought up about the 218 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:07,280 Speaker 4: NIH and I've said this before on this podcast, these 219 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 4: defense contractors are major job creators. I don't know that 220 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 4: Musk is going to have as much rope as people 221 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:14,439 Speaker 4: think he will. 222 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 3: Cutting the defense. 223 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:17,679 Speaker 4: Well, again because of the conflicts of interest, and because 224 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 4: we're talking about jobs. 225 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:22,840 Speaker 2: I think going after USAID and it's roughly what Josh, 226 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 2: forty billion dollars year budget that largely of course goes 227 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 2: overseas to people who do not vote in US elections, 228 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:35,200 Speaker 2: is one thing. Going after large contracts for the military 229 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 2: industrial complex I think is an entirely different thing. The 230 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:42,200 Speaker 2: Secretary Defense Pete has Get says he welcomes Elon with 231 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 2: open arms. That one is going to be very interesting 232 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:46,839 Speaker 2: to see how it plays out now, Josh, but they're 233 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 2: on the ground in DC. What is the mood on 234 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:53,600 Speaker 2: the Democrat side, my understanding is their phone lines are 235 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:58,880 Speaker 2: blowing up from irate constituents saying, damn it, do something. 236 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:02,720 Speaker 2: What's the sense there? Where do they stand in forming 237 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:05,560 Speaker 2: a credible opposition to Musk and Trump. 238 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 5: They're in a really tough spot because conservatives are mostly 239 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:12,079 Speaker 5: delighting in what Musk is doing. I think that that's 240 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 5: an important factor to look at here. If people think 241 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:17,080 Speaker 5: that there's some sort of pressure building up on Trump 242 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:21,080 Speaker 5: within the Republican Party, within the broader conservative movement, it's 243 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 5: just not there. And so for Democrats when they go 244 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 5: and do some you know, stunt or whatever, trying to 245 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 5: like go into these agencies that are being dismantled, the 246 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:32,840 Speaker 5: problem is that that only sort of feeds the perception 247 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 5: that is delighting conservatives who are wanting Trump to really 248 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 5: make structural changes to the broader state. And so that 249 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:42,080 Speaker 5: is really the trap that they're in. Not only are Democrats, 250 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:45,320 Speaker 5: of course, you know, kind of rudderless right now, but 251 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 5: more broadly, they don't really have any tools that would 252 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:50,800 Speaker 5: be effective to sort of crank up the pressure on this, 253 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:54,439 Speaker 5: whether it's at USA AID or others. The blowback that 254 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 5: Max alluded to is going to come more from when 255 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 5: they start hitting red states, for instance, when banks gets 256 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 5: hit by funding cuts. 257 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 2: Max. That is a good point that according to a 258 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 2: CBS poll they came out. I believe on Monday, Donald 259 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:11,360 Speaker 2: Trump's approval numbers are up since his inauguration. I believe 260 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:15,600 Speaker 2: Americans a greater number of Americans now approve of him 261 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:17,680 Speaker 2: and what he's doing visa v from before. 262 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 4: It's true, although Elon Musk's numbers are not haven't looked 263 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 4: so good. There's been a couple of poles I haven't looked. 264 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:25,480 Speaker 4: I don't know if anything's come out this week, but 265 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 4: last week there were two poles, you know, showing that 266 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:31,080 Speaker 4: Musk's numbers had fallen since the election pretty badly. So 267 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:34,200 Speaker 4: I think Josh is right, like I think, and what 268 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 4: you're saying, like picking on these kind of soft targets 269 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 4: like USAID or whatever, like the pain is going to 270 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:40,520 Speaker 4: come later. 271 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 3: The pain for Trump politically is you've. 272 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 4: Made a lot of promises and like, what have you 273 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:48,720 Speaker 4: actually done except for so a lot of chaos, right, 274 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:50,840 Speaker 4: Like fifty billion dollars is not that too much money 275 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:52,920 Speaker 4: in the scheme of things and a lot of these 276 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 4: things that Musk has done either. They sound very dramatic, 277 00:13:56,960 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 4: and there's been a real cost for the civil service, 278 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:02,719 Speaker 4: but it's not clear that he's gonna come away from 279 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 4: this having achieved a whole lot. And then if you 280 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:09,080 Speaker 4: put that on top of you know, creating chaos in 281 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 4: red states or or pissing off voters, I mean, you know, 282 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 4: we are seeing some activation of grassroots Democrats. 283 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 2: This reminds me actually that we're still playing out. I 284 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 2: believe as we speak is the Musk team's offer of 285 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 2: buyouts to all federal employees. I think we're still I 286 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:27,880 Speaker 2: think that's been paused by a judge. Yeah. 287 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, And so far they've got sixty thousand people. They 288 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:34,000 Speaker 4: get one hundred thousand retirements each year, so like that 289 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:36,400 Speaker 4: is not a big number, that's a small number. And 290 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:41,360 Speaker 4: so again like tons of talk, tons of chaos, pain 291 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 4: in a very few specific areas. But I don't know 292 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 4: that he's actually done all that much despite the crisis 293 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 4: that that Dennis. 294 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 2: Well, one thing that he has done, and with this 295 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 2: we will wrap here on this first segment, is you know, 296 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 2: I was dead wrong. I thought the first thing those 297 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 2: was going after was daylight savings and that they were 298 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:00,560 Speaker 2: going to make it permanent. And I'm a little disappointed 299 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 2: that they have not gone pennies. You got it a penny. 300 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:08,560 Speaker 2: Whoever's pushing back on the death of the penny, just 301 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 2: zip it, man, I mean, the penny's gotta go it. 302 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:15,120 Speaker 2: The penny is truly absurd. And after they're done with 303 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 2: the penny, Max, they can go for the nickel. Max 304 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 2: Bold bold. 305 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 3: Talk from Bobdopolis over here. 306 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 2: Wow, when you're done Nix and the penny, Nicks the nickel, 307 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 2: Josh Wingrove, you are going to be a or You 308 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 2: already are a very very busy man, and you will 309 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 2: continue to be so and as a result, we will 310 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 2: have you back on again soon. 311 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 5: Thank you all for having me. I'll keep letting you 312 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 5: know when we see him in the White House. 313 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:45,160 Speaker 2: Okay, we're now joined by John Herman, New York Magazine 314 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 2: tech writer. John. Welcome back to the show. Thanks for 315 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:50,840 Speaker 2: having me. Okay, John, So you were last on a 316 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 2: year ago. Man, we were so young and innocent. 317 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 3: Porn. We were talking about porn. 318 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:57,320 Speaker 2: We're just you know, and god, what do we you know? 319 00:15:57,440 --> 00:15:59,480 Speaker 2: What do we know? We had no idea what we 320 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 2: were in store for, and Musk was really if you 321 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 2: think about it, he was essentially a nobody, right right, 322 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:08,240 Speaker 2: And now every time you shake the magic eight ball 323 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 2: and see something goes on in the world, it just 324 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:14,840 Speaker 2: comes up Musk. Now, John, you have written a piece 325 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 2: recently where you lay out what you believe to be 326 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 2: the bailout, as you call it, that Elon is getting 327 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 2: as he jumps into the government and does all these things, 328 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:28,000 Speaker 2: and is he buddies up with with Trump. I got 329 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 2: to tell you just off the bat, I'm going and 330 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 2: I'm a little dubious on this bailout thing here, So 331 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 2: convince me of it. 332 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:36,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, as a term it's a little provocative, 333 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 1: But I do think this is a strange time, confusing time, 334 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:42,320 Speaker 1: and it's helpful to sort of back up and try to, 335 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:44,680 Speaker 1: you know, in the spirit of the show, look at 336 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 1: you know, Elon Musk first principles and try to figure 337 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 1: out what's going on. On one hand, you've got someone 338 00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 1: who is very open about like attempting to mingle his 339 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 1: own business interests in ways that are often unconventional and 340 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 1: in some cases like challenged in court. So his portfolio 341 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 1: of companies is like used, you know, to support one 342 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 1: another in ways that are you know, he has a 343 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:11,680 Speaker 1: sort of fundamental belief that he his success is sort 344 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 1: of fused with the fate of the world, that he 345 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:16,480 Speaker 1: is sort of destined to save the world. He says 346 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:18,680 Speaker 1: this all the time. You can, you know, doubt his sincerity, 347 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:21,440 Speaker 1: but in my view, it's it's you know, real in 348 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 1: some sense, he's really like, you know, he believes that 349 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:26,520 Speaker 1: what he's doing is this, and I think. 350 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:28,160 Speaker 2: The three of us here, Max, Dan and I all 351 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:30,120 Speaker 2: very much believe that he does. 352 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 1: So we've got those first principles. Now, what happens if 353 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:35,640 Speaker 1: you add the United States government to that portfolio of companies. 354 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:38,199 Speaker 1: In the view of someone who thinks this way, you 355 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:40,800 Speaker 1: start to think about how the government helps Musk, and 356 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:42,800 Speaker 1: he tends to talk about more how how Musk can 357 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:45,159 Speaker 1: sort of change the government. So you've already talked on 358 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:48,720 Speaker 1: this show about the obvious overlap with companies like SpaceX, 359 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:51,920 Speaker 1: which has enormous contracts with different agencies and different parts 360 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:54,320 Speaker 1: of the government. And and we'll have even more through 361 00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 1: through Starlink. We can talk about Tesla, various subsidies things. 362 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:03,240 Speaker 2: So, how does Musk's relationship with this administration, his very 363 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:08,560 Speaker 2: cozy relationship with this government help for instance, X right. 364 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:12,919 Speaker 1: So SpaceX is an obvious contractor X is like further 365 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:15,359 Speaker 1: away from what we think of as you know, the 366 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 1: normal operations of government. But it's Elon Musk's probably most 367 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:25,160 Speaker 1: distressed asset, not his most financially important. He is using 368 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 1: it now to sort of like you know, command his 369 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:32,399 Speaker 1: incursion into government, so it's become very very visible, but 370 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:36,639 Speaker 1: also like his his proximity to power has real value 371 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:39,639 Speaker 1: to X. He is currently in the process of suing 372 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:42,480 Speaker 1: advertisers for what he says is an illegal boycott of 373 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 1: X right, which is a lawsuit that I think a 374 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:47,880 Speaker 1: lot of people didn't take very seriously when he first 375 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 1: filed it. Well it's certainly unconventioned, certainly, but he amended 376 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 1: it recently. And some of these advertisers are coming back 377 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:57,560 Speaker 1: because you know, maybe they were content to ignore Elon 378 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:00,119 Speaker 1: Musk before he was the president's right hand man. 379 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 2: John John, I will just warn you that the last 380 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 2: person who said on this podcast that that the advertisers 381 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 2: were coming back got blown up by Max, So you know, no, 382 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 2: they're not that coming back is coming back. Mean, Hey, 383 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:16,919 Speaker 2: here's two chits, here's two tokens. I'll put on your 384 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:19,560 Speaker 2: board to you know, to appease mister Musk. Are they 385 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 2: really coming. 386 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:23,399 Speaker 1: Back the numbers, I mean, we don't know the full numbers, 387 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 1: but they are signaling that they're, you know, more open 388 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:27,000 Speaker 1: to coming back than they were. 389 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:27,720 Speaker 2: That's one piece. 390 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:30,159 Speaker 1: Another piece is that AX is sort of becoming a 391 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 1: little bit like truth social This extension of the government 392 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:37,199 Speaker 1: communications program the the NTSB, for example, announced in a 393 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:39,479 Speaker 1: in a post on X that was where they were 394 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:42,119 Speaker 1: going to be messaging about recent air disasters, which is, 395 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 1: you know, a small thing but also potentially a sign 396 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:45,359 Speaker 1: of like a bigger thing. 397 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:47,639 Speaker 2: Right. This is an extension of the Max Chafkin theory 398 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 2: that that's what X has become. It's become the media 399 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:50,880 Speaker 2: ar you're just I mean. 400 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:54,000 Speaker 4: But this is like the least important of Musks companies 401 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:56,800 Speaker 4: that are benefiting so went from the dynamic that you 402 00:19:57,640 --> 00:19:59,920 Speaker 4: that's like it's like saying, well, how is Musks video 403 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:03,240 Speaker 4: game playing? How is the Trump administration benefiting his his 404 00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 4: status on path of exile? Like it actually might be baby, 405 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:12,399 Speaker 4: but like honestly spaceds Tesla are way bigger companies with so. 406 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 3: Much more to game. 407 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:15,760 Speaker 1: Twitter's is the least important, but it's like really visible 408 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 1: and really like I think a lot of people pointed 409 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 1: to Musk's takeover of Twitter as like a playbook, which 410 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:22,600 Speaker 1: I think is useful, but you sort of extend that 411 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:24,159 Speaker 1: a little bit further and you're like, okay, how does 412 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 1: it flow the other way? And there are these real 413 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 1: benefits to being someone who everyone is a little bit 414 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:32,359 Speaker 1: scared of. The advertisers, maybe come back, People have to 415 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 1: use your platform, people have to pay attention to your platform. 416 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:38,840 Speaker 2: Tell us though, how this is a net positive for Tesla, 417 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 2: because that's not screamingly obvious. 418 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:43,320 Speaker 1: No, the Tesla situation is weird. I feel like that 419 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:45,679 Speaker 1: statement holds true pretty much at any time that you 420 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 1: talk about Tesla's stock. For example, it's this weird company 421 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:52,920 Speaker 1: in that it's a major automaker that sells a ton 422 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 1: of cars and has real financials. It is also, to 423 00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:57,359 Speaker 1: a great degree kind of a mean stock, and that 424 00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:01,359 Speaker 1: depends on Elon Musk's reputation promises about the future, some 425 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:03,720 Speaker 1: of which are kind of crazy and some of which 426 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:06,199 Speaker 1: just seem a little premature. You know, it's a mixture 427 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:07,280 Speaker 1: of like can he deliver? 428 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:07,919 Speaker 2: Will he deliver? 429 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:08,600 Speaker 5: Is this made up? 430 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:09,200 Speaker 2: Now? 431 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:12,359 Speaker 1: In addition to that, you've got this this you know, 432 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 1: sort of implied connection to the establishment in the biggest 433 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 1: possible sense. So not only does Elon Musk say, okay, 434 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 1: listen to me, I know we had a bad quarter, 435 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:24,200 Speaker 1: which they did. Don't worry about our cars. Think about 436 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:28,520 Speaker 1: our cyber taxis, think about our humanoid robots that we're 437 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:31,199 Speaker 1: working on, think about AI, think about these things with 438 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:33,680 Speaker 1: you know, vague future dates, and you know, we're we're 439 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:37,440 Speaker 1: doing this cycle again. But also what if and think 440 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:40,240 Speaker 1: about this, investors, what if I now can't lose What 441 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:42,359 Speaker 1: if I am like the supreme government connected. 442 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:46,240 Speaker 6: There's some clear examples where Tesla is really well positioned. 443 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:50,000 Speaker 6: So example, one tariffs. Tesla does it make cars in Mexico. 444 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:52,119 Speaker 6: They make all of their cars that they sell in 445 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 6: the United States in the United States, so they are 446 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 6: sort of like insulated from tariffs compared to Ford and GM. 447 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:02,159 Speaker 6: The second thing is the Heavy Program, So like the 448 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:06,360 Speaker 6: Trump administration just funded just basically froze or halted all 449 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 6: of the payments that go out to the states to 450 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:13,120 Speaker 6: build a network of high speed electric vehicle chargers. Halting 451 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 6: those payments really disrupts all the plans that these states 452 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 6: had to kind of build out a charging network, but 453 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:20,600 Speaker 6: it really helps Tesla, which actually already has a charging 454 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 6: network that a lot of other automakers use. And so 455 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:26,920 Speaker 6: in small ways you're seeing the administration do things that 456 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:30,480 Speaker 6: do benefit Tesla. And what's you know, what I try 457 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:33,200 Speaker 6: to remind people is like, you know, Elon has very 458 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:36,800 Speaker 6: smartly played both sides of the aisle, because like Tesla 459 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:40,600 Speaker 6: got enormous benefit from the Inflation Reduction Act and now 460 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:43,679 Speaker 6: Trump is like walking back a lot of that. But 461 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 6: it's it's it's like they're not walking back forty five X, 462 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:49,359 Speaker 6: which is the manufacturing text credit. So like Tesla wins 463 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 6: no matter what, like they are going to be okay. 464 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:53,919 Speaker 6: The biggest risk to Tesla right now is just the 465 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:57,359 Speaker 6: brand and of Elon's craziness and the sales plummet in 466 00:22:57,760 --> 00:22:59,160 Speaker 6: markets like Europe and the US. 467 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, and to that point, and max I in my 468 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:04,679 Speaker 2: absence last week, I do appreciate you guys talking about 469 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:09,240 Speaker 2: the collapse in sales in California, which were followed then 470 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 2: by a collapse in sales in Germany and I think 471 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:14,199 Speaker 2: France that happened around the same time. And these are 472 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:17,679 Speaker 2: big numbers, down sixty percent or so all that, I 473 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:20,760 Speaker 2: guess certainly does seem to square with a drop and 474 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 2: Musk's approval rating. And I guess if right now there 475 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:29,480 Speaker 2: are any checks or leverage that must detractors have on him, 476 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:32,400 Speaker 2: maybe this is the extent of it. 477 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 4: The sales you mean, yeah, yeah, I just to want 478 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:38,240 Speaker 4: to reiterate one thing Danna said, which is like really important, 479 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:42,159 Speaker 4: Like it would be awesome for Musk if he could 480 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:45,439 Speaker 4: just like get the Defense Department to hand him like 481 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:48,560 Speaker 4: a ten billion dollar check for something, or to like 482 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 4: just have the federal government like pay him directly, you 483 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 4: buy some Starlink satellites by a Mars mission, make have 484 00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:57,919 Speaker 4: Tesla as the new designer of military jeeps or some 485 00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:00,359 Speaker 4: crazy stuff like. That'd be great, But that stuff is 486 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:03,160 Speaker 4: going to be more difficult, it's politically difficult. But just 487 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 4: stopping stuff benefits his companies enormously, Like if he is 488 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:09,919 Speaker 4: able to like pull up the ladder behind him on 489 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 4: tax credits, or if he is able to for evs, 490 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 4: if he is able to slow down other providers of 491 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:18,960 Speaker 4: rural broadband, which he appears to be doing, like all 492 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:22,680 Speaker 4: these things with Starlink, all these things like help him 493 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:26,040 Speaker 4: and so he's gaining just by like cutting things, and 494 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 4: we haven't even started talking about writing checks. 495 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 2: I do think addition by some truck, I do. 496 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:33,400 Speaker 4: Think the thing that John is saying that is really 497 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:36,639 Speaker 4: smart is that people see Elon as this like, you know, 498 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 4: he's this amazing capitalist. He has all this influence. He's 499 00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:42,320 Speaker 4: the world's richest man, but he is vulnerable in certain ways. 500 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:45,280 Speaker 4: And like one of the reasons he did this with 501 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:49,040 Speaker 4: Trump is because I think he had vulnerabilities and and 502 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:53,719 Speaker 4: like those vulnerabilities continue today, and and by it's not 503 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 4: just the sales thing, it's by by making himself a 504 00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:59,680 Speaker 4: political force, by by allying this closely with Donald Trump, 505 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:01,320 Speaker 4: a guy who is, yeah, his pull numbers have gone 506 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:03,679 Speaker 4: up a little bit, but he's not that popular. Musk 507 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:06,480 Speaker 4: is eroding some of the things that have made him 508 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,359 Speaker 4: very powerful. And you're seeing that in the stock price, right, 509 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:12,479 Speaker 4: Like Tesla stock has fallen by like eighty bucks over 510 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:13,680 Speaker 4: the last few days, you. 511 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 2: Know, since the inauguration. I was looking at this this morning. 512 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:20,879 Speaker 2: Twelve of the sixteen trading sessions since the inauguration, Tesla 513 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 2: stock is down. It's not plunging each and every day, 514 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:24,840 Speaker 2: but it's down and it's down. Yeah, it's now down 515 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:25,720 Speaker 2: about seventy percent. 516 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:28,240 Speaker 4: I do think that the traders who have bid this 517 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:31,159 Speaker 4: stock up for no particularly good reason other than the 518 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:34,399 Speaker 4: fact that Elon has proximity toward Trump are thinking, like 519 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,200 Speaker 4: John says, hey, heads, he wins, tails, he wins whatever, 520 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,800 Speaker 4: but you are seeing more reasons to doubt him, and 521 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:43,080 Speaker 4: like that is what is driving the stock down. 522 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:53,200 Speaker 2: Okay, Dana Elon Musk says he and some other investors 523 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:57,840 Speaker 2: want to purchase open Ai. Tell us about this and 524 00:25:58,080 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 2: where it currently stands. 525 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:02,280 Speaker 6: So I guess they made a bid for open Ai, 526 00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:05,120 Speaker 6: and Sam Alton immediately responded and was like, open Ai 527 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:08,159 Speaker 6: is not for sale. So I don't know where this 528 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:10,920 Speaker 6: currently stands. I just think that like Elon is doing 529 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:12,959 Speaker 6: what Elon does, which is to sort of be like 530 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,959 Speaker 6: the big bully pulpit and in the middle of, you know, 531 00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 6: upending the American government, He's like trying to go on 532 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:22,320 Speaker 6: his m and a spree and and Sam is like, no, like, 533 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:22,800 Speaker 6: we're not. 534 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:26,399 Speaker 2: For sale, Max, is this a legit attempt? You're right 535 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:28,200 Speaker 2: furiously scrouching down. 536 00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:30,520 Speaker 4: I was making sort of like a matrix on like 537 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 4: how realistic is this acquisition offer? 538 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,360 Speaker 3: For Elon Musk. So like on one side you have. 539 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:38,320 Speaker 4: Threatening to buy Coca Cola to put the cocaine back 540 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,080 Speaker 4: in it, like clearly a joke offer. And then on 541 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:43,359 Speaker 4: the other side you have buying Solar City, which was 542 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:44,760 Speaker 4: like clearly a serious offer. 543 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:47,360 Speaker 2: Yes, Twitter swimming somewhere. 544 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:49,359 Speaker 4: In the middle because it was a joke, it seemed like, 545 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:53,520 Speaker 4: but then it became a serious thing, buying Liverpool Football Club, 546 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:55,400 Speaker 4: which has he has kind of joked about. 547 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:57,200 Speaker 3: I'd say, close to the Coca Cola thing. 548 00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:00,280 Speaker 4: This feels like, I'd say, smack in the middle of 549 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 4: this chart because it's not a serious. 550 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:06,080 Speaker 2: So to the right of Liverpool, to the. 551 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 4: Right of if this, yeah, on the left, farthest on 552 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:09,119 Speaker 4: the left is the least serious. 553 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:11,760 Speaker 3: Farthest on the right, that's right dead center. 554 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 4: And I say that because it's not a serious offer 555 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:17,800 Speaker 4: in the in terms of the size, this is like a. 556 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 2: Low ball nine, wildly undervalues the company. 557 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 4: But I do think he could create chaos for Sam 558 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 4: Altman if he goes to the negotiating table, right and like, 559 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:32,320 Speaker 4: to me, this feels like, you know, in poker terms, 560 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:34,479 Speaker 4: like big stack bully, like if you have an insane 561 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,439 Speaker 4: amount of money you can, you and negotiations can do 562 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 4: all sorts of things. You can sort of push people 563 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:41,160 Speaker 4: away from negotiating table, you can. 564 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:42,760 Speaker 3: So like, maybe he's just trying. 565 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:45,879 Speaker 2: To cause on the other side, isn't isn't Microsoft on 566 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:47,800 Speaker 2: the other side alongside Sam Altman. 567 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:50,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, but I think they have a pretty good stack too. No, 568 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:51,960 Speaker 3: I don't think. 569 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:57,800 Speaker 4: That Microsoft is necessarily as willing to raise hundred hundreds 570 00:27:57,840 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 4: of billions of dollars to what buy out Microsoft. 571 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:02,080 Speaker 3: I mean, the Microsoft has already bet a lot of 572 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 3: money on this company. 573 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,200 Speaker 4: So, like, I don't like again, like, I don't know, 574 00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:09,000 Speaker 4: I don't know how, I don't know what open ass 575 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:09,919 Speaker 4: finances look like. 576 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:12,040 Speaker 3: This seems like a low ball offer. 577 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:15,159 Speaker 4: But I would have to think that if he started 578 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:19,399 Speaker 4: negotiating with them, he could create problems as sam Altman 579 00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:22,840 Speaker 4: tries to raise, you know, additional funding and sam Altman 580 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 4: is trying to negotiate an equity stake for himself as 581 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:27,440 Speaker 4: part of this conversion to a. 582 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:30,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, we actually have a clip of Sam Altman and 583 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:34,159 Speaker 2: some things he said to us I'm Bloomberg TV earlier today. 584 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:36,719 Speaker 3: Do you think Musk's approach then is from a position 585 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 3: of insecurity about x Ayon probably his whole. 586 00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:41,320 Speaker 2: Life is from a position of insecurity. I feel for 587 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 2: the guy. I feel fair, I do. Actually I don't 588 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:45,520 Speaker 2: think he's like a happy person. 589 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:46,480 Speaker 1: I do feel for him. 590 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:49,680 Speaker 2: Okay, so John Herman, hit me with your theory on 591 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:50,080 Speaker 2: all this. 592 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 1: I mean, with the caveat that none of this is 593 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:55,440 Speaker 1: inevitable and this could all go catastrophically wrong for a 594 00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:58,000 Speaker 1: musk in a variety of different ways. He is I 595 00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:01,760 Speaker 1: think like making this bid from a position of what 596 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,440 Speaker 1: he feels is strength again because of his sort of 597 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:08,440 Speaker 1: like incorporation with the government. So if we return to 598 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:12,440 Speaker 1: the sort of like bailout framework here, Xai is is 599 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:14,440 Speaker 1: by a lot of metrics doing very well. They're developing 600 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:16,400 Speaker 1: very quickly. They're catching up really. 601 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:18,880 Speaker 2: Fast, spending a bunch of money, Valuations climbing. 602 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:21,440 Speaker 1: Sure, and he's able to raise a bunch of money 603 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 1: for Xai for you know whatever. But it's not like 604 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 1: it's making any money. It's still catching up. It doesn't 605 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:30,120 Speaker 1: have customers, really, it's not in the conversation with like programmers. 606 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:32,760 Speaker 2: Does it not have the US government as a customer. 607 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 2: That's the thing. 608 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:36,240 Speaker 1: Now, it might you know what, if you know open 609 00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:39,360 Speaker 1: Ai the clear leader in this moment in the you know, 610 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:42,840 Speaker 1: sort of loosely defined AI industry that is getting its 611 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:45,400 Speaker 1: first big federal contracts, that is developing all these tools 612 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,520 Speaker 1: for major, major potential contracts. Here, what if they suddenly 613 00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:50,800 Speaker 1: had a competitor that had, like right a first refusal 614 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:54,000 Speaker 1: for basically every federal federal contract that had the term 615 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:57,760 Speaker 1: artificial intelligence in it. And you talk about those intruding 616 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:01,360 Speaker 1: into all these different agencies and showing up this very 617 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:04,240 Speaker 1: small team claiming to use AI to do analysis to 618 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:07,480 Speaker 1: streamline operations. That's all kind of made up right now. 619 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 1: They don't have the tools to really do that, but 620 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:12,920 Speaker 1: it is a pretty clear telegraphing of a plan to 621 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:15,719 Speaker 1: say like, hey, yeah, now we know everything, we have 622 00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 1: all the data, We are better positioned than anyone, and 623 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:22,960 Speaker 1: are politically connected for you know, a market that basically 624 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:25,880 Speaker 1: doesn't exist yet. Why don't we you know, why wouldn't 625 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:27,920 Speaker 1: we win this? I don't mean to spell this out 626 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 1: as like a complicated plot, but it's more just like 627 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:32,600 Speaker 1: if you're Elon Musk, if you are this sort of 628 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:36,040 Speaker 1: like intuitive power seeking person, you're in the position you're in, 629 00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:37,920 Speaker 1: You're like, all right, I've got an AI company. I 630 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:40,920 Speaker 1: hate Sam Altman. You know, I'm going to try to 631 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:43,120 Speaker 1: buy them, and I'm going to take every federal contract 632 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:44,080 Speaker 1: while I'm on this run. 633 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:45,680 Speaker 6: And by the way, I'm going to announce that I'm 634 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 6: trying to buy them on the first day of this 635 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:50,360 Speaker 6: like Global AI summer in France, when like everyone is 636 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:53,360 Speaker 6: focused on AI and when everyone is like and Sam 637 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:55,320 Speaker 6: Altman is in France, and I'm just going to like 638 00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:57,680 Speaker 6: put out this like news that I'm trying to buy 639 00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:00,360 Speaker 6: his company while he's at this conference abroad. It's like, 640 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,640 Speaker 6: that's like a classic move to grab the news cycle. 641 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, and stick it to Sam and the process while 642 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:05,840 Speaker 2: he's trying. 643 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:08,080 Speaker 4: To raise money at a valuation that's four x right, 644 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:11,440 Speaker 4: undermining the fundraise too right. 645 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:14,200 Speaker 2: And that, by the way, beyond Sam Altman telling Bloomberg 646 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:17,520 Speaker 2: TV that Elon is just a very insecure man. He 647 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:22,040 Speaker 2: also his main theory was Elon is just messing with us. 648 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:24,960 Speaker 2: Elon is trying to throw sand in the gears here 649 00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:27,560 Speaker 2: as we try to achieve certain things, and and we're 650 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,440 Speaker 2: going to do our darkness not to let him achieve it. Now, Max, 651 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,600 Speaker 2: when I guess I ask you this, you our feud 652 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:36,040 Speaker 2: watcher of all feud watchers. And I guess I just 653 00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:39,080 Speaker 2: wonder if you strip out you just strip out Elon 654 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:44,200 Speaker 2: Musk versus the entire Democratic Party and all those who 655 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:48,480 Speaker 2: support the Democrats. So we're throwing that out as a feud. 656 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:51,840 Speaker 2: I guess of all the old feuds that Elon used 657 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:54,120 Speaker 2: to have and that used to watch and plot on 658 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:57,239 Speaker 2: your on your matrix, number one is this number one? 659 00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:58,560 Speaker 2: Is it the only one that's left? 660 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 3: You know? It does feel that way a little bit, right, David. 661 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:04,040 Speaker 4: And and it's it's such a juicy one too, because 662 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:06,440 Speaker 4: Sam Altman and Elon kind of have some things in 663 00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:09,560 Speaker 4: common here, right. They're both these like guys who have 664 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:13,000 Speaker 4: these grandiose make these grandiose statements. You know, Sam Altman 665 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,240 Speaker 4: is talking about, Oh, we're gonna have agi, it's gonna 666 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 4: cure cancer or whatever. 667 00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:17,960 Speaker 3: You're just ask the AI to do something. 668 00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:19,720 Speaker 4: It's like a lot of he's like writing a lot 669 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:21,840 Speaker 4: of checks with his mouth that he can't necessarily cash, 670 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:24,360 Speaker 4: you know, exactly like Elon Musk. And it does have 671 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 4: this quality of these two like masterful self promoters suddenly colliding, 672 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:32,480 Speaker 4: which I think makes it great. I have been trying 673 00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:34,800 Speaker 4: to just racking my brain trying to figure out ninety 674 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:35,640 Speaker 4: seven point four? 675 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:36,280 Speaker 3: Did I get that right? 676 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:36,920 Speaker 2: Now? That's right? 677 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:38,160 Speaker 3: Like what's that number? 678 00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:43,160 Speaker 4: Like where's the twenty? Is it ninety seven point four two? 679 00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:45,560 Speaker 4: Because otherwise, like I don't know where he got this number, 680 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:46,960 Speaker 4: Like where's the four to twenty joke? 681 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:49,160 Speaker 3: Where's the sixty nine jokes? I want to know where 682 00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:50,000 Speaker 3: the number came from? 683 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 2: Will I'm I bet you by the time we record 684 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:55,200 Speaker 2: next week, someone will have cracked the code. 685 00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:57,240 Speaker 1: Or we'll get one of those delayed announcements like the 686 00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:00,440 Speaker 1: Fork in the Road sculpture. Ye know, we'll get committee. 687 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:02,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll get something like that. All right. So John, 688 00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 2: not to put you on the spot here, but you 689 00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:07,240 Speaker 2: you heard you listened to Max beause he laid out 690 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,200 Speaker 2: the metrics of Elon Musk and his bids and how 691 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 2: serious or not serious they are. When we have you 692 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:16,400 Speaker 2: back on a year from now, mister Hermann, is Elon 693 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:18,120 Speaker 2: Musk the owner of Open Ai? Yes or no? 694 00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:25,400 Speaker 1: I'm going to say probably not, but no, that's that's 695 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:28,480 Speaker 1: my that's my guess. We'll have bigger things. 696 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:31,719 Speaker 2: To worry about. I see, Okay, we'll be talking about that. 697 00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:33,520 Speaker 6: I'm gonna say no. 698 00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:36,400 Speaker 4: No, Max, I mean I want to say yes to 699 00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:38,280 Speaker 4: be different, but no, no, it's not gonna happen. 700 00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:42,040 Speaker 2: No, no, and no. So it's totally happening, you know. 701 00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:45,800 Speaker 2: Oh you know, by the way, Max, we almost forgot here. Uh, 702 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,440 Speaker 2: the biggest news of them all right, if you're really 703 00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:51,640 Speaker 2: I mean, I can't believe we're leaving it for last. 704 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:54,440 Speaker 2: Elon has a new name on his x account. 705 00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:57,280 Speaker 3: Oh god, I don't even want to say Harry Balls. 706 00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:01,360 Speaker 3: It's Harry Balls. It's his name, okay Ball. This is 707 00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:03,080 Speaker 3: like the most powerful person in the world. 708 00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:05,000 Speaker 2: This is what he's doing with his time. There are 709 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:06,280 Speaker 2: a lot of you know, a lot of this. 710 00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:08,319 Speaker 1: A lot of my feel probably this whole bailout, can 711 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:11,399 Speaker 1: see comes from the feeling of having to look at 712 00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:14,799 Speaker 1: Twitter again and having to see Elon Musk post all 713 00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:16,879 Speaker 1: the time, having to acknowledge the jokes, having to say 714 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:20,680 Speaker 1: doge the meme from twenty eleven or twenty twelve. Maybe 715 00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:23,080 Speaker 1: I saw this, It's maybe I should sure go to 716 00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:24,640 Speaker 1: a therapist about this, but you know. 717 00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:25,239 Speaker 3: No, it is. 718 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:28,080 Speaker 2: It is true. Every time I read the word, I 719 00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:30,600 Speaker 2: read doge, and I yeah, each tree one just thinks 720 00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:32,719 Speaker 2: God this is become. This is all so absurd. I 721 00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:35,520 Speaker 2: mean this was just a a meme, coin joke. That 722 00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:36,759 Speaker 2: is now, before. 723 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:38,960 Speaker 1: That, ten years before that, it was just a meme, right, 724 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:40,759 Speaker 1: there were people writing about how it was worn out 725 00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:43,200 Speaker 1: in twenty twelve, you know, just a cute little thing. 726 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:44,640 Speaker 1: And here we are, here, we. 727 00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:47,399 Speaker 2: Are dedicating our lives to it. This is our lives work, 728 00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:50,520 Speaker 2: mister Chaffkin, John, thank you for joining us. Thanks for 729 00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:53,319 Speaker 2: having me back. Max, Dana, Thanks as always, you've brought 730 00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:53,919 Speaker 2: me down, David. 731 00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:54,880 Speaker 3: But it's great to be with you. 732 00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:56,000 Speaker 6: Always a pleasure. 733 00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:06,200 Speaker 2: This episode was produced by Stacy Wang Anna Masa Rakus 734 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:09,479 Speaker 2: is our editor, and Rayhan Harmanci our senior editor. Blake 735 00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:13,560 Speaker 2: Maples handles engineering, and Dave Purcell fact checks. Our supervising 736 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:17,160 Speaker 2: producer is Magnus Henricson. The elon Ing theme is written 737 00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:21,800 Speaker 2: and performed by Taka Yasuzawa and Alex Sugiira. Brendan Francis 738 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,360 Speaker 2: Newnham is our executive producer, and Sage Bauman is the 739 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:27,680 Speaker 2: head of Bloomberg Podcasts. A big thanks to our supporters 740 00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:31,319 Speaker 2: Joe Weber and Brad Stone. I'm David Papadopoulos. If you 741 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:33,880 Speaker 2: have a minute, rate and review our show. It'll help 742 00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:36,160 Speaker 2: other listeners find us. See you next week.