1 00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:15,840 Speaker 1: Welcome back to Killer Thriller DOCU edition. I'm your host, 2 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:19,640 Speaker 1: Jennifer Fessler. Today we're discussing four thousand Days. It's a 3 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:24,319 Speaker 1: powerful new documentary premiering at the Tribeca Film Festival next week. So, 4 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:27,040 Speaker 1: this film follows three families who lost their sons to 5 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:30,440 Speaker 1: fraternity hazing and refuse to let those tragedies be forgotten. 6 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 1: Their year's long fight for accountability and legislative reform became 7 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 1: a movement that is helping reshape the conversation around hazing 8 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:41,880 Speaker 1: in America. Joining us our director Danielle Catulo, who brings 9 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:45,640 Speaker 1: this remarkable story to the screen, and advocate Gary Diversely, 10 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 1: whose son Gary Junior died in a fraternity hazing act. 11 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 1: Carrie has since dedicated himself to raising awareness and fighting 12 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 1: for change to help prevent other families from experiencing the 13 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:59,280 Speaker 1: same loss. Daniel Gary, thank you guys so much for 14 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 1: joining us. Thank you for much having us, really, And 15 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:05,479 Speaker 1: of course I want to start out by saying, Gary, 16 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 1: I am so sorry for your unimaginable loss, and you know, 17 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:13,280 Speaker 1: I'm happy to be able to say that. From watching 18 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:17,479 Speaker 1: the documentary, I feel like I now know Gary Junior 19 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:20,600 Speaker 1: a little bit, and I love that part of it, 20 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:24,200 Speaker 1: you know, I love it's such a hard, difficult, tragic story. 21 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 1: But also being able to see the kids and hear 22 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 1: about the kids and the way that you guys describe them, 23 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 1: that was joyful. I love that I can say that 24 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 1: I know about him a little bit. I wish that 25 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:36,839 Speaker 1: I had known him, but I am again, I can't 26 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 1: imagine what you've been through. So I guess we'll just 27 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:42,959 Speaker 1: jump in you guys. I guess you know, Daniel, what 28 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:47,600 Speaker 1: how did you learn about Gary Junior's story? And you've 29 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:51,880 Speaker 1: been advocating I think you know, for anti hazing law 30 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 1: for a while. I know you've been involved with several docs, right. 31 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean almost a decade now. And I kind 32 00:01:57,240 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 2: of fell into it. I didn't, I never and this 33 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 2: was no. I never intended for this to be kind 34 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 2: of my cause, and I was just trying to help 35 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 2: my alma mater out. I went to West Virginia University 36 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:09,920 Speaker 2: and I do a lot of stuff at the university. 37 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:12,360 Speaker 2: I mean, I mainly do music stuff for a living, 38 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:14,959 Speaker 2: so yeah, kind of outside of my wheelhouse. But I 39 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 2: stepped up to help them after kidnamed Nolan Birch died 40 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 2: at WWU. We made an educational film and it was 41 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 2: just supposed to be something to help, you know, alert 42 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:29,960 Speaker 2: people to bystander awareness laws and you know, just raise 43 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:31,919 Speaker 2: awareness to what's going on. And what happened is it 44 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:34,120 Speaker 2: kind of opened up this can of worms where it 45 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 2: went viral and all of a sudden I entered this 46 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 2: world with all these other families reaching out to them, 47 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:42,800 Speaker 2: including the diversities. I got to know all these other families, 48 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:44,520 Speaker 2: and they told me the exact same thing happened to 49 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 2: her son. I mean, Gary says that at the beginning 50 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 2: of our movie in a press conference he did about 51 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:52,960 Speaker 2: a decade ago now, it said, the circumstances of their 52 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 2: deaths are you really similar? And it's true because the 53 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 2: same thing is happening over and over to these boys. 54 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:00,040 Speaker 2: And when I saw that, I'm like, I started the 55 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 2: question what is happening? Because I was a Greek in college. 56 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:05,919 Speaker 2: I was a sigepe at WU and it was the 57 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 2: biggest fraternity at WVU at the time, and I was 58 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:10,919 Speaker 2: hazed and I hate others. I was once part of 59 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 2: the problem, but we weren't doing anything like what's happening now. 60 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:16,799 Speaker 2: When I started peeling the layers of the onion back 61 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 2: and hearing all their stories, I was like, Okay, someone 62 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 2: has to come out and take this on and be 63 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 2: a voice. And I felt like I was the right 64 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:26,360 Speaker 2: guy to do that, because when I'm from New Jersey 65 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:29,920 Speaker 2: and I don't I don't back down anybody, but not intimidate. 66 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:32,919 Speaker 2: I get death threats, I get. I mean, it's insane 67 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 2: threats all the time. You know, people are you know 68 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 2: that the fraternity system is kind of scared of me. I'm, 69 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 2: you know, uncovering the truth out there, and they are 70 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 2: covering these boys desks up. They know what's happening, they 71 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 2: know what they're doing is dangerous, and they still allow 72 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 2: it to happen. And and so I figured, if someone's 73 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 2: going to be the voice, then if it's me, so 74 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:54,240 Speaker 2: be it. And so that's what I'm doing. 75 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:57,840 Speaker 1: I feel like I hear the stories on the news 76 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: over and over again, and I I know that I'm 77 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 1: only hearing I'm sure, and I'm sure Gary you could 78 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 1: attest to this, but you know, a tiny little drop 79 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 1: of what's really going on out there. My daughter graduated 80 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 1: from the University of Delaware and I was talking to 81 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 1: her a little bit about it and she saw so much. 82 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 1: There's so much social media and taping of these boys 83 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:22,600 Speaker 1: being you know, I don't know what word to use, 84 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:26,359 Speaker 1: but tormented for lack of a better word. And Gary, 85 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:32,040 Speaker 1: you know, obviously unfortunately firsthand. Okay, so you guys met. 86 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 1: How did you two connect? 87 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 2: Originally that Julie first. So right after breeding old and 88 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:41,360 Speaker 2: Breathe kind of blew up, I had other families calling 89 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 2: me and I started working on other small films. I 90 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:45,919 Speaker 2: was just going to do a bunch of educational films, 91 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 2: and I started realizing the scope of the problem. So 92 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:51,440 Speaker 2: it was about a year after I met the Birches 93 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 2: and I was working ready with the Wayan family on 94 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 2: forty five Mils Street. I came up with this bigger 95 00:04:56,720 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 2: idea to do a docu series on really the kind 96 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:01,640 Speaker 2: of the history of Hazen and how it's evolved into 97 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 2: what it is today where they're lighting kids on fire 98 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 2: and stuff. And I can't remember who introduced me to 99 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 2: Julian Gary, but the all the family. Unfortunately, these guys 100 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 2: aren't a club that no one wants to belonging that 101 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:15,159 Speaker 2: they all know each other and they live right by me. 102 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:17,680 Speaker 2: They only live like thirty minutes away. I live in 103 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:20,200 Speaker 2: South Orange County. They live in Long Beach. So I 104 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 2: went and met with them, and then as I started 105 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 2: to learn what they did, I saw this whole bigger 106 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 2: story of the families kind of banded together to create change. 107 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 2: And so I started working with Gary and Julie first, 108 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 2: and they were working with me on Protect the House, 109 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:35,559 Speaker 2: which we're still doing. But then this kind of side 110 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:38,680 Speaker 2: movie came out of it, which you know, and then 111 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 2: here we are. So but I wanted to. I wanted 112 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 2: to tell their story because I thought what they were 113 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 2: doing was really heroic. It reminded me of a movie 114 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 2: called Newtown that my actually my editor edited, which is 115 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:51,800 Speaker 2: about the Sandy hook on thementary shot where the parents 116 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 2: banded together to kind of take the gun lobbyond. I 117 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 2: loved the story of Julian Gary kind of banding together 118 00:05:57,960 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 2: with these other families to kind of take the system 119 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:03,359 Speaker 2: on and create transparency and try to raise the alarm 120 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:07,039 Speaker 2: bells of what's really happened. And uh so we started 121 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:09,359 Speaker 2: following them, and it's it was a long journey. It 122 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:11,840 Speaker 2: took us years to finish this because we had to 123 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 2: get to a resolution. But I thought what they were 124 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 2: doing so I Eric, I wanted people to see it. 125 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 1: It's a great word for it. And I the beginning 126 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 1: watching Julie Gary, you know, hit I don't know what 127 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 1: Congress and going up to random I guess senators or 128 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:33,599 Speaker 1: Congress both, yeah, I mean, and taking her adorable little 129 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 1: self and men kind of like cornering these you know, 130 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 1: I recognize them, these these famous politicians. 131 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:43,599 Speaker 2: Everybody you know. By the way, if you look at 132 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 2: that scene, it's actually kind of sad. It was a 133 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:50,160 Speaker 2: mother's desperation. Yeah, we weren't watching them for a few days, 134 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:52,960 Speaker 2: we weren't getting anywhere. I actually snuck around the committee 135 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 2: committee rooms floor. We got up there because the press credentials, 136 00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 2: and she just started ambush from people and no fear, 137 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:02,880 Speaker 2: something very panic about it. It's very Julie. But it 138 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:06,520 Speaker 2: was a mother's desperation to finally get to have someone help. 139 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 1: The desperation was palpable, and the courage as well, I 140 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 1: mean not it was. That was the I think probably 141 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 1: the first thing that I was sort of hit me 142 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 1: and I what it would take to have that much 143 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 1: strength to be able to, you know, corner these people 144 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 1: as they're walking down the hall with their security, and 145 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 1: she just seemed to have absolutely no fear, which I 146 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:31,840 Speaker 1: am in I mean neither one of you. And I 147 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 1: say that not just you guys, I say I'm talking 148 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 1: about all of the families involved in the making of 149 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 1: this and it is quite astounding and unfortunately, I guess 150 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 1: it is rooted in what you've been through, right, I mean, 151 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 1: it's you're fighting now for your kids. 152 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 3: Yes, Well, to say that Julie is fearless is an understatement. 153 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 3: When she puts her mind or something, it gets donne. 154 00:07:58,240 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 4: Yeah. 155 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 3: In fact, when we first made the decision that we 156 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 3: wanted to work on national legislation, that was her. She 157 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 3: told me that's something that she felt very strongly about 158 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 3: that needed to be done, and so we sat down 159 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 3: strategize how we would do it, and then embarked on it. 160 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 4: It took a lot longer than we thought. 161 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 1: It was going to take, four thousand days. 162 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 4: Yeah, but we finally got there. 163 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:31,560 Speaker 1: Yeah. This is really for the For the end of 164 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:33,199 Speaker 1: the interview, I was going to ask this, but I 165 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 1: can't sort of help it. But does it help? Does 166 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 1: it help to be this immersed in the making of 167 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 1: a documentary like this in getting laws passed? Has it 168 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 1: Has it helped heal you? I have a few friends 169 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:48,120 Speaker 1: who've lost their children, not really on the subject, but 170 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 1: like I have one who lost a child to fentanyl poisoning, 171 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:55,560 Speaker 1: and her life now is about advocating right and getting 172 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:58,960 Speaker 1: lost passed. And I think it helps. Has this helped you, 173 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 1: you know, making this move and you know, creating law, 174 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:05,440 Speaker 1: helping to create these laws. Does it helped you to 175 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 1: heal a little? 176 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 2: Well? 177 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 3: I think I think a lot of good has come 178 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:13,840 Speaker 3: out of this. Whether or not it's healing us, I 179 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 3: don't know. There there are times that we kind of 180 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 3: hold each other's hands and and kind of smile, and 181 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:23,559 Speaker 3: you know, we did this for Gary, and we did 182 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:27,199 Speaker 3: it for other young you know, young men and women 183 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:31,959 Speaker 3: as they come along. I don't know if you ever 184 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 3: get healed you lose a child, and so you know, 185 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:40,040 Speaker 3: I'm relected to kind of say that it's healing, But 186 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 3: I understand the need that people feel after losing a 187 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:49,559 Speaker 3: child so senselessly that something has to be done. And 188 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 3: if it hasn't been done, then I'm going to be 189 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 3: the one to do it. I saw it Julie and 190 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 3: I and I've seen it in so many of the 191 00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:59,600 Speaker 3: other families that have come after us. You know that 192 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 3: feeling that, Okay, I'm going to do it. I'm going 193 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:04,440 Speaker 3: to pick up the ball and I'm going to run 194 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:09,320 Speaker 3: with it. So I think it's just a sense of justice, 195 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 3: of trying to make things right, make something good come 196 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 3: out something that's so terrible. That's kind of the motivating factor, 197 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 3: not so much a desire to heal. 198 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:27,839 Speaker 1: Yeah, oh well that makes sense. So Gary, when Gary 199 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:30,880 Speaker 1: Junior told you that he was going to pledge a fraternity, 200 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:32,560 Speaker 1: how did you feel about it? Because you were not 201 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:34,640 Speaker 1: ever in a fraternity, right, No. 202 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:36,320 Speaker 4: I never was, Julie never was. 203 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:41,840 Speaker 3: Both of us did not go to college straight out 204 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 3: of high school. We went out into the real world, 205 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 3: worked for a while, and then went back to school later. 206 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:52,200 Speaker 3: So we never had that four year experience on campus 207 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 3: to kind of see what was going on. And also 208 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 3: that was so long ago. As Daniel expressed in his experience, 209 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:03,319 Speaker 3: well the fraterniteys were doing back then, even though if 210 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:08,080 Speaker 3: they were hazing, it was different. So I wasn't thrilled 211 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:10,960 Speaker 3: about it. But you would have to know Gary. Gary 212 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:14,720 Speaker 3: was an extremely mature young man and he always made 213 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 3: good decisions. I mean, even as a young boy. I 214 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:20,200 Speaker 3: gave him choices, and he always seemed to make the 215 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 3: right decision. And I could tell you story after story 216 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 3: where you know, you would kind of smile when you 217 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:36,440 Speaker 3: understood the depth of his character. Tell me one, Okay, well, gosh, 218 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 3: when he was in like third or fourth grade, I 219 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 3: was picking him up at school and he was hanging 220 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:44,679 Speaker 3: out by himself. 221 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 4: Okay, to start with, we homeschooled Gary to fourth grade. 222 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:50,040 Speaker 1: Really, how come just was that just. 223 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 3: A Well, Julie wanted Julie wanted them to She wanted 224 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:56,200 Speaker 3: to make sure that they had a good foundation for 225 00:11:56,240 --> 00:12:01,600 Speaker 3: their education. Julie's a teacher, now, you know. So there's that. 226 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 3: There is also the fact that a lot of literature 227 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:11,719 Speaker 3: that we've read talked about with children's character development. If 228 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:15,920 Speaker 3: there are primary people that they're around, or their parents, 229 00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:19,440 Speaker 3: they will pick up their parents' characteristics, as opposed to 230 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:22,200 Speaker 3: when they're very young you put them in school, they 231 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:27,720 Speaker 3: adopt the morals and values of their friend group, which 232 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 3: can be a positive or a negative. So it was 233 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 3: very important to us that they had a strong moral 234 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:34,719 Speaker 3: foundation growing up. 235 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 1: It's incredible, that's incredible that you all went to certain 236 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 1: lengths to protect Gary, you know, even to school him yourself, right, 237 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 1: and to protect him from whatever is out there, and 238 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:51,720 Speaker 1: you send him off, I guess for the first time. 239 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 1: I don't know. And then this, but I'm sorry because 240 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:56,720 Speaker 1: I'm interrupting. Tell me the story about it. 241 00:12:57,080 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 3: Okay, So is his first year in school, and I'm 242 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:05,120 Speaker 3: picking him up, and he's standing by himself and maybe 243 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 3: twenty yards away or a group of about three or 244 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 3: four or five of his friends. And he's by himself 245 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 3: and the friends I see, they're kind of like joking 246 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 3: around and having fun, and he's just standing there. And 247 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 3: I remember having this terrible feeling that I thought, oh 248 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 3: my goodness. You know, you know, we homeschooled him, he 249 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:28,080 Speaker 3: did socialized well, you know, he's he's a loaner. I 250 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:31,079 Speaker 3: just all these things kind of rushed through me. And 251 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 3: I picked him up and he gets in the car, 252 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 3: and so I start driving. I said, hey, you know, hey, kid, 253 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 3: how is your day? 254 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:39,840 Speaker 2: It was good? 255 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:43,880 Speaker 3: I said, hey, wasn't that I named the kids' names. 256 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:47,080 Speaker 3: I can't think of him now in that group that 257 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 3: was near you? And he goes, yeah, yeah. I said, well, 258 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:51,560 Speaker 3: why weren't you hanging out with him? How come you're 259 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:54,920 Speaker 3: by yourself. He goes, oh dad, they started playing with matches, 260 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:58,679 Speaker 3: So I just kind of got away from I'm like, Okay, 261 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:02,160 Speaker 3: when I was his age, if my friends would started 262 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:04,679 Speaker 3: playing with matches, I would have found something we could. 263 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:09,720 Speaker 1: Burn, you and me, both, you and me both. And honestly, yeah, honestly, 264 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:13,200 Speaker 1: I don't like, I don't know my kids are adults now, 265 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:15,320 Speaker 1: but I think they would have been down to play 266 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 1: with matches. 267 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:19,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, and he saw that, he went, no, 268 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 3: I'm not gonna he did it admonish him, you know, 269 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:23,440 Speaker 3: he did. He just went, I'm not going to be 270 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 3: part of this, and he went over stood by himself 271 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 3: until oh dad picked him up. 272 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 4: So wow, Yeah, that's the kind of story. 273 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:34,200 Speaker 3: It's like again and again. He he always made that 274 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 3: the right decision. 275 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 1: Were you surprised that he wanted because he doesn't seem 276 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 1: like the kind of kid that could be influenced by 277 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 1: you know, could be pure pressured. But were you surprised 278 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 1: that he decided to join a frat at first? 279 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:54,240 Speaker 3: Yes, because because he's not your typical frat guy. And uh, 280 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 3: but but but then you know, he kind of sold 281 00:14:56,680 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 3: us on it. He talked about how joining a you know, 282 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:03,920 Speaker 3: frattorney would give him the type of connections that he 283 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:06,560 Speaker 3: was looking to have on the East Coast, and that 284 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 3: the fraternitey stood for leadership. 285 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 4: Gary was a baseball kid. I mean he was. I 286 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:16,080 Speaker 4: played ball, and I love the game baseball. 287 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:18,520 Speaker 1: I can I can sort of tell just in terms 288 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:19,359 Speaker 1: of your background. 289 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, sorry, no, I love it. 290 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 3: Gary, But Gary took it to a whole different level. 291 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 3: It's you know, there's just some people are just baseball people. 292 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:32,000 Speaker 3: And Gary was a baseball kid. He was a left 293 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 3: handed pitcher, first baseman, but he knew he didn't have 294 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:38,080 Speaker 3: the talent that he was going to make it to 295 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:40,760 Speaker 3: the you know, he was not going to play first 296 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 3: base for the New York Yankees. 297 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 4: Okay, that just wasn't going to happen. 298 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 3: But he didn't want to be in baseball, so he 299 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:51,280 Speaker 3: decided that he wanted to be a general manager of a. 300 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 1: Baseball I remember that from the doc. 301 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:57,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, and so so everything that he did for the 302 00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 3: time by the time he was hitting high school, everything 303 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:03,800 Speaker 3: he did you could see him like lining up, lining 304 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 3: up the dominoes so that they would fall where he wanted, 305 00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 3: and even even going to school back he's at a rider. 306 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:16,600 Speaker 3: He wanted to be on the East coast because that's 307 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:19,960 Speaker 3: where the connections are, and so joining the fraternity was 308 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 3: going to be for the connections and for the leadership. 309 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:27,160 Speaker 3: So once he kind of explained, it just kind of 310 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 3: fell in line with the kind of ken he was 311 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 3: and who he was. And I even had a conversation 312 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 3: with him that you know, hazing happens. Of course, I 313 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 3: wasn't thinking the level of hazing that he encountered, So 314 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 3: it's going to be the silly stuff, and so I 315 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:52,400 Speaker 3: had conversations with him about it, and and you know, now, 316 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:55,280 Speaker 3: of course, you know I got to carry the guilt 317 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 3: that I didn't tell him. 318 00:16:57,400 --> 00:16:59,400 Speaker 1: No, I am so sorry to hear that that you 319 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 1: feel guilty about that. I have two kids, they've both 320 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 1: been in Greek life, and I never had that conversation. 321 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:07,840 Speaker 1: And I have a son, and I've never had that 322 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 1: conversation with them. Daniel, I don't know if you have kids. 323 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 2: My daughter is a senior at San Diego State and 324 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:14,720 Speaker 2: my son's fifteen. 325 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:17,119 Speaker 1: And you've been going through this, so I'm sure that 326 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:19,919 Speaker 1: you have had those conversations. But I know that a 327 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:23,840 Speaker 1: lot of parents. I want to say in my town, 328 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:26,520 Speaker 1: the way we grew up. They're all encouraging their kids 329 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:29,240 Speaker 1: to get into the Greek life and they're. 330 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 2: Though a lot of them don't know how bad it's gotten. 331 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:36,639 Speaker 2: And I'll be honest with you, like especially when it 332 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:40,560 Speaker 2: comes to Gary, Gary Junior, everything I've learned about him, 333 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:42,920 Speaker 2: and I've learned a lot now because it's been many 334 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 2: years that I've been working with Gary and Julie about 335 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:47,840 Speaker 2: their son. He was not someone that can mean to 336 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 2: manipulate it easy or you know, I wouldn't. I'd be 337 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 2: honest with you. If I was Gary Junior's father, I 338 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 2: wouldn't be worried about him joying a f attorney because 339 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 2: of the type of person he was. I mean, he's not. 340 00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:00,400 Speaker 2: He wasn't what I would consider weak or easily Meand 341 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 2: so that's why it's really important to really raise the 342 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:06,240 Speaker 2: alarm what's going on right now, because these are pretty 343 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:08,600 Speaker 2: strong kids, and if they could happen to that, it 344 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 2: could happen to anybody. That's just terrifying about it, because 345 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:15,919 Speaker 2: you know, I wouldn't say Gary Junker was exactly a 346 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:18,199 Speaker 2: weak person that would succumb to this. 347 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:20,639 Speaker 1: No, I told you my kids would have been lighting 348 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 1: those matches like they would be the first and the 349 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:25,240 Speaker 1: last ones to do it. And I think that's I 350 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:27,679 Speaker 1: can tell by the way that you're describing him that 351 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 1: it makes it even more surprising. I don't know, I mean, 352 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:36,200 Speaker 1: it's just almost more ironic the fact that it was him. 353 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:38,880 Speaker 1: I always think of that kid, Please forgive me, because 354 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:40,199 Speaker 1: I know you all will know his name, the red 355 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 1: kid from pen Redhead Kid from Penn State him. Yes, yes, 356 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:48,920 Speaker 1: And that was you know, that was so huge, right, 357 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 1: and those kids also, I want to say, they were convicted. 358 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 2: But it's still going. 359 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:58,199 Speaker 1: Actually, oh it's still going. But that was that was least. 360 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 1: That was probably the most famous story in terms of 361 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:06,560 Speaker 1: hazing that I've heard until now, right, And I don't 362 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 1: know if that's all. 363 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 2: That hit right on the cusp of when it started. 364 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 2: We started having like one after the other, and so 365 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 2: that's when like kind of Good Morning America and Dateline 366 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:17,680 Speaker 2: and people right around that happened. Was when people started 367 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:19,880 Speaker 2: realizing what the hell is going on? Because you had 368 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:22,439 Speaker 2: a flurry of deats back to back between twenty fourteen 369 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:24,840 Speaker 2: and twenty seventeen. So I think if it was like 370 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 2: at the cusp of where even the press is starting 371 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 2: to pick up, like, wait a minute, scattered. I mean, 372 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:33,679 Speaker 2: when Gary Junior died. Gary Junior's death was like probably 373 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 2: one of the first ones that kind of started going 374 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:38,919 Speaker 2: viral on social media because Facebook just really became a 375 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:41,959 Speaker 2: thing in two thousand and seven, so it was becoming 376 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 2: hard and harder for people to kind of cover these 377 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 2: deaths up. I mean, what we're starting to realize now 378 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:48,159 Speaker 2: is there were many more deaths than we know of. 379 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:51,639 Speaker 2: They were just being disguised as a kid just drinking 380 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 2: too much or and there was really no mechanism for 381 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:56,639 Speaker 2: like in a lot of police, a lot of the 382 00:19:56,680 --> 00:19:58,960 Speaker 2: police department, especially university police, a lot of them are 383 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 2: like kind of retired small town cops. They don't really 384 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:03,120 Speaker 2: know how to investigate these things, so they didn't really 385 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:06,679 Speaker 2: know the warning signs or the signs a crime scenes 386 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:10,879 Speaker 2: that something actually was a hazing. I mean, Adam Oaks, 387 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 2: we have it on bodycam. At first, the police there 388 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:16,480 Speaker 2: were almost closed up the scene thinking a kid just 389 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:19,600 Speaker 2: drank himself, drank too much and because he didn't die 390 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:21,320 Speaker 2: at a fraterniose, so the signs were even though the 391 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 2: kid at the front door had to dealt the Kai 392 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:25,160 Speaker 2: shirt on. I mean the signs were there. I mean, 393 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:27,399 Speaker 2: what were a bunch of boys like drinking that much for? 394 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:30,119 Speaker 2: But you know, that's one of the things that the 395 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 2: diversities are trying to do, and so are the other 396 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 2: parents with the bill is to these transparency laws. But 397 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:38,680 Speaker 2: also they're going out there to creating awareness. So law 398 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 2: enforcement even knows how to recognize these things. Yeah, parents, 399 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:44,479 Speaker 2: because you need to know the warning signs so your 400 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:45,359 Speaker 2: kids are going through this. 401 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:48,480 Speaker 1: I will tell you that if I'd seen the film 402 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:51,400 Speaker 1: before my kids went to college, my daughter as well 403 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 1: as my son, I would have had a very different 404 00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 1: conversation with them about Greek life. And I have a 405 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 1: podcast actually about Greek life. But aside from that, I 406 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:06,399 Speaker 1: will tell you that, you know, if there's going to 407 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:08,919 Speaker 1: be so much good that comes from this film, but 408 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 1: I can promise you that if I had seen it 409 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:12,200 Speaker 1: before my kids went away to college, we would have 410 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 1: had a very very different conversation. I would have been 411 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:18,160 Speaker 1: a lot more vigilant, I think in terms of their 412 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:22,760 Speaker 1: experience there. So I know that it's going to change 413 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:26,560 Speaker 1: a lot of parents' attitudes in terms of their kids 414 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:29,640 Speaker 1: joining fraternity, specifically Greek life. 415 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:32,160 Speaker 2: If you're supposed to have that bond and that friendship, 416 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 2: then I don't know why why they like hurting each other. 417 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:36,880 Speaker 2: And you know, you thought, you think that even one 418 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:39,040 Speaker 2: depth would be too much, where the whole system would 419 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 2: been together to make sure it doesn't happen. And it's 420 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:43,439 Speaker 2: almost like they kind of get off on it. It's 421 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:47,840 Speaker 2: really bizarre because they've taken the extremness of the hazens 422 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:50,960 Speaker 2: now are insane, Like just in the past year. I mean, 423 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:53,480 Speaker 2: I almost wish we could go back in time where 424 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:55,440 Speaker 2: they were just forcing kids to chug ball as a whiskey. 425 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:58,400 Speaker 1: Wow. I picture the alcohol poisoning being the biggest. 426 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:01,240 Speaker 2: I consulted San Diego State at five SI. We had 427 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:04,040 Speaker 2: they let a kid on fire. That's the thing. 428 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:07,200 Speaker 1: Actually that happened. My daughter knew about that. She told 429 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 1: me they lit a kid on fire. 430 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:12,399 Speaker 2: Each other. There were cars. I mean, I don't know 431 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 2: about you, but I mean, when I pledged it, if 432 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 2: they want to light me on fire, I'd be like, 433 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:20,200 Speaker 2: where's the door. I'm like, I mean, this is getting crazy. 434 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:23,960 Speaker 2: At this point, another fraternity in Ohio was hooking car 435 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:27,000 Speaker 2: batteries up to their privates and shocking them. I mean 436 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:28,280 Speaker 2: and kids have become sterile. 437 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:31,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I don't know about this, by the way. 438 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:33,199 Speaker 2: I mean, this is like stuff this has gotten and 439 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:35,119 Speaker 2: I think it social media drivee if it's getting to 440 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:36,720 Speaker 2: the point where, like you would have thought that they 441 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:40,200 Speaker 2: would have woke up after someone died, right, Yes, Diary's 442 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:41,800 Speaker 2: death was kind of right around the time when it 443 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:44,399 Speaker 2: really became a little more mainstream where everybody kind of 444 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:46,800 Speaker 2: heard about it. Before that, if a kid didn't read 445 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:49,920 Speaker 2: the paper, it was kind of or they weren't at 446 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:51,520 Speaker 2: that school. A lot of the deaths were kind of 447 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 2: a little more low key, and then it really blew 448 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:55,840 Speaker 2: up around twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen, we started 449 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:58,480 Speaker 2: seeing more and more pressed Now it seems like every 450 00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:02,240 Speaker 2: couple months on Dateline on Good Morning America, there's another death. 451 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:05,080 Speaker 2: And I think we've almost become to sensitize to it. 452 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 2: But if you go down the rabbit hole looking on 453 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 2: social media for hazing videos. 454 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:11,480 Speaker 1: I'm telling you my daughter was the one that said 455 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,520 Speaker 1: to me, Mom, she knew a kid or something. They 456 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:16,880 Speaker 1: lit him on fire and then pede on him. And 457 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:20,199 Speaker 1: I didn't know that. I didn't know they were they 458 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:24,119 Speaker 1: were attacking things to their genitals, and I mean that brotherhood. 459 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 1: And I know that when I was in college, the 460 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:31,800 Speaker 1: boys there were paddles hanging up on the walls, and 461 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 1: there was one fraternity that was more likely to haze 462 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:38,320 Speaker 1: you harder than the other. But nothing. I don't remember 463 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:56,440 Speaker 1: there being deaths with all of this work, this unbelievable 464 00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 1: work that you have been doing. Were you, first of 465 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:02,199 Speaker 1: all surprised by the resistance that you've fade, that that 466 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 1: you faced, that it did take as long as it did, 467 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:08,359 Speaker 1: Because it felt to me like, I mean, there were 468 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 1: times I was not like I wasn't surprised that Amy 469 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 1: Klobuchar was so open to helping. That there were there were, 470 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:17,159 Speaker 1: you know, certain politicians that embraced you guys, but so 471 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:22,520 Speaker 1: many didn't. So many didn't and Amy did right, Yes, yes, 472 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:24,960 Speaker 1: from what I remember, Yes, But like there were what 473 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:26,880 Speaker 1: we you must have been shocked that you didn't get 474 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 1: more that more attention wasn't you know, given to you? 475 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:31,840 Speaker 1: And and it took this long. 476 00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:36,639 Speaker 3: Well, I wasn't shocked because many there's many, many people 477 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 3: in Congress that are fraternity alumni themselves. So there's a 478 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:46,800 Speaker 3: very strong pro fraternity attitude. 479 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 1: In one that is so gross, how frustrating that must be. 480 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:51,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, and also the. 481 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:55,840 Speaker 3: Frat Pack, which is which is a on a law 482 00:24:55,880 --> 00:25:00,240 Speaker 3: firm that is uh that you know works for the national. 483 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 4: Fraternities. They're very, very. 484 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:07,720 Speaker 3: Powerful on Capitol Hill, and I believe that they are 485 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:09,680 Speaker 3: one of the one of the reasons why it. 486 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:10,399 Speaker 4: Took so long. 487 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:14,800 Speaker 3: We had the Rechact that was going and we had 488 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:19,960 Speaker 3: something like seventy six not exact number, but in that 489 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:25,159 Speaker 3: area co sponsors on that, and then here comes the 490 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:29,480 Speaker 3: in All Hazing Act, which was introduced by the Frat Pack, 491 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:33,080 Speaker 3: and that just muddied up the water. And so I 492 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:36,199 Speaker 3: believe that we could have gotten the Rechact passed several 493 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 3: years earlier if they hadn't introduced their anti supposedly anti 494 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:49,320 Speaker 3: hazing legislation. So I also think that they introduced it 495 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 3: in an effort to sink the Rechact. But then since 496 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:56,399 Speaker 3: we persevered and we and we fucked them and we 497 00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:59,639 Speaker 3: stayed with it, at some point they I think they 498 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 3: believed that you know, you can't beat them, join them. 499 00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:05,000 Speaker 2: That was an interesting twist when that he will happen. 500 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:07,160 Speaker 2: And just to just to be clear, because I want 501 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:09,399 Speaker 2: to clarify some there were families that were working with 502 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:11,439 Speaker 2: the frat pack and I don't think the families had 503 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 2: the same intent, but you know, and the fact that 504 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:18,879 Speaker 2: the National Pattorneys were sponsoring a bill, you know that 505 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 2: would almost curb them and and and raise put a 506 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 2: spotlight on the misgivings and what they're doing, all the 507 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:26,720 Speaker 2: things they're doing wrong. I was a little suspicious of 508 00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:28,880 Speaker 2: that from day one, but then when the bill ended 509 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:31,119 Speaker 2: up getting passed. The irony of this whole thing is 510 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:34,200 Speaker 2: they're out there fighting for transparency, and there's members of 511 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:36,919 Speaker 2: these organizations posing with the parents after the bill passed. 512 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,600 Speaker 2: But you know all about transparency, but they're not. The 513 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:43,760 Speaker 2: bill doesn't require them to be transparent, only the universities. 514 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 2: And I would like call them out, like, okay, then 515 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:50,600 Speaker 2: why no one has to force you, like, go ahead, 516 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:53,119 Speaker 2: put it on your website. Why aren't you guys transparent? 517 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:55,159 Speaker 2: Like you're all for transparency, right, so go ahead and 518 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:57,600 Speaker 2: post it on your website. And and I even offered 519 00:26:57,720 --> 00:26:59,840 Speaker 2: one of them. I was like, okay, I have web 520 00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:02,000 Speaker 2: this have worked for me. I'll update your website for you. 521 00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:04,280 Speaker 2: How's how about that? But because my son's going to 522 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:06,960 Speaker 2: join a fraternity. Most likely I'm going to go on 523 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,360 Speaker 2: that fraternity's website and try to learn about them, right, 524 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,439 Speaker 2: I'm not going to go dig through University of Delaware's 525 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:15,160 Speaker 2: website to try to find where where is the stop 526 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 2: campus as in act information. 527 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:18,400 Speaker 1: Of course, right. 528 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:21,439 Speaker 2: And so it was just it was it was total 529 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:25,159 Speaker 2: bs that, like they're out there posing their pictures, like 530 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:27,760 Speaker 2: we're all about transparent. We're not gonna be transparent ourselves. 531 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:31,400 Speaker 2: But I mean it's just like and until like they 532 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:33,680 Speaker 2: step up and they do that, I just call a 533 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:35,480 Speaker 2: spade a spade. I mean, they're full of shit. 534 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:37,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, do you do? 535 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:37,960 Speaker 3: You do they do? 536 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:39,840 Speaker 1: They call themselves the frat Pack. I really hope it's 537 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:40,720 Speaker 1: what you all name them. 538 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:44,160 Speaker 2: I don't know, Gary, you know, they kind of had 539 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:45,199 Speaker 2: the name before. 540 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:48,159 Speaker 3: Uh yeah, there was kind of a nickname that's been 541 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,720 Speaker 3: hung on them years ago. I don't know where it 542 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:53,360 Speaker 3: originates from, but it's been around. 543 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:53,879 Speaker 4: Quite a while. 544 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 1: Well I like that we use it in a derogatory way. 545 00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,160 Speaker 4: Now, yeah, well that's the only way to use it. 546 00:27:59,280 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 1: Yes. 547 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:04,000 Speaker 2: The thing is they brainwash families, and a lot of 548 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 2: families work with them, and they're wonderful families. We know 549 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:09,439 Speaker 2: these families. They're good people, and it's caused like a 550 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:11,919 Speaker 2: rift between like kind of the families that work with 551 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:14,439 Speaker 2: the Fraterneys and don't work with the Frattorneys. And I 552 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:17,359 Speaker 2: mean personally the Gary and Julie are pretty adamant about it, 553 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:20,119 Speaker 2: never working with the f attorney. I'm if I have 554 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 2: my son and her daughter Fraterney, I would never work 555 00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:25,080 Speaker 2: with them because, look, they could do so much more 556 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:27,520 Speaker 2: and they're not doing it. But for them to put 557 00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:30,680 Speaker 2: these families out there, and by the way, that's kind 558 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:32,679 Speaker 2: of their sole thing that they do. That's kind of 559 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:35,480 Speaker 2: all they do, is they you know when instead of 560 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:38,960 Speaker 2: making real change like shutting houses down or putting chaperones 561 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:41,960 Speaker 2: in houses or stopping really having a zero tolerance with Hazen, 562 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:44,800 Speaker 2: their entire thing is like, well, look we're trying everything 563 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:47,280 Speaker 2: we can. We had this family come speak at our conference, 564 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:50,680 Speaker 2: and it's like that that's all they do. And you know, 565 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 2: and then when if I'm a parent with the kidrome 566 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 2: in school, if you don't know what we know, we'll 567 00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:56,560 Speaker 2: be like, well, they must be turning a corner. Just 568 00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 2: look at the family that went and spoke with them. 569 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 2: Why would that family, go speak with them. They're still 570 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:02,800 Speaker 2: hazing kids, so they must be good. It's like the 571 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 2: perfect cover. And unfortunately, you know, when you're in your 572 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 2: height of grief, when these families are going through what 573 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:11,240 Speaker 2: Gary and Julie went through and all these other families 574 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:14,440 Speaker 2: go through, you're really kind of vulnerable. And these guys 575 00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:16,200 Speaker 2: come in and they make it seem like we're going 576 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:17,720 Speaker 2: to put you in front of thousands of people and 577 00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:20,640 Speaker 2: you're going to help us change things. But really none 578 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:22,239 Speaker 2: of them ever have the balls to ask, well, what 579 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:24,320 Speaker 2: real action are you doing? What are you really doing 580 00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:27,240 Speaker 2: to create change here? Because there's so much research and 581 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:28,920 Speaker 2: so much stuff that has come out of the past, 582 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:31,719 Speaker 2: especially five to ten years, that they know that there 583 00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:33,800 Speaker 2: are certain things they can be doing to really change things, 584 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:34,479 Speaker 2: and they don't do it. 585 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:50,920 Speaker 1: Do you think that I can't help it? You guys? 586 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:52,920 Speaker 1: Talking to my head is like spinning. There so many 587 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 1: things that I want to ask you, But do you 588 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,760 Speaker 1: think so much about it? Of this is about money? 589 00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 2: Of course, they have hundreds of millions of dollars in 590 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:05,840 Speaker 2: real estate. I mean hundreds of millions, and now they're 591 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:07,960 Speaker 2: making money. When kids get hurt or die, they raise 592 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:11,280 Speaker 2: the insurance rates. They own the insurance companies and they're 593 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:14,080 Speaker 2: not that yeah, up in and off. When kids actually 594 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,040 Speaker 2: get hurt or die, they raised the rates. And by 595 00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:18,480 Speaker 2: the way, what a scam that is there. You know, 596 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,240 Speaker 2: I called some of my friends that are an insurance businesses, 597 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:24,479 Speaker 2: and you know, to add people to a coverage across 598 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,200 Speaker 2: penniesly compared to what it cross overall. So it's like, 599 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:30,880 Speaker 2: if they're charging kids fifty dollars a semester towards insurance, 600 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:32,880 Speaker 2: it would cost fifty five to name the kids an 601 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:35,800 Speaker 2: insurance policy as well. So it's just nonsense. 602 00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:39,800 Speaker 3: I mentioned earlier that as a grieving parent, you want 603 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 3: to do something. You know, you know you're going to 604 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:45,120 Speaker 3: pick up the ball, You're gonna you're going to do 605 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:49,600 Speaker 3: something to solve this problem. Well, the the you know, 606 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,520 Speaker 3: the frat pack and the national fraternities, they get these 607 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:54,880 Speaker 3: parents in that vulnerable type position. 608 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 4: They want to do something. They don't want this to. 609 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:01,080 Speaker 3: Happen to any other kid's and you know then they 610 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:03,000 Speaker 3: get him and go, well, you can come speak here 611 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:04,640 Speaker 3: and you can talk. 612 00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:05,600 Speaker 4: And you can get this done. 613 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:10,280 Speaker 3: Uh, and you can be the person that that warns 614 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:13,480 Speaker 3: the kids that about hazing, so they don't hate and 615 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:18,480 Speaker 3: kill someone else themselves. And when Daniel mentioned about uh, 616 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,680 Speaker 3: when Julie and I spoke and I said that that 617 00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:27,720 Speaker 3: the Haitian gifts were early similar Timothy post. 618 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:34,000 Speaker 2: Darry and Timothy's death, they're almost identical. Yeah, most of 619 00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:36,280 Speaker 2: these kids, it's the same thing. And they also the 620 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:38,840 Speaker 2: crazy thing is almost every boy could have been saved. 621 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:41,560 Speaker 2: They die over long periods of time because no one 622 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:44,960 Speaker 2: calls nine to one one CPR. They leave them there. 623 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:49,120 Speaker 2: Gary was backpacked, it was left on a couch. You know. 624 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:52,320 Speaker 2: Timo Piazza, we obviously know what happened to him. I 625 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:54,200 Speaker 2: mean he kept they kept putting them back up the room. 626 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:55,920 Speaker 2: He fell down the stairs, hit his head. I mean 627 00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:58,280 Speaker 2: a brother even tried to step up to get him help. 628 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:00,800 Speaker 2: I mean this went on for hours and he eventually died. 629 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:03,320 Speaker 2: All these kids, if someone would call nine one one, 630 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:05,920 Speaker 2: And by the way, most states have by standard awareness laws, 631 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:08,160 Speaker 2: there's zero reason not to get someone out. But they're 632 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:10,959 Speaker 2: so worried about getting the fraternity in trouble that they 633 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:16,080 Speaker 2: run the risk of someone dying. And it's just it's sad. 634 00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:19,040 Speaker 2: And then the crazy thing is they lose someone someone 635 00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:22,200 Speaker 2: is supposedly a brother. They made that horrible, but you 636 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:24,400 Speaker 2: know they're living with guilt and then they still don't 637 00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:27,600 Speaker 2: come out and talk about it. Well, that was really real. 638 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:31,120 Speaker 2: It still lives like. I interviewed for my other project 639 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:33,760 Speaker 2: someone in the FBI that says he sees a stronger 640 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:37,120 Speaker 2: bond with the code of silence and fraternities than he 641 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:39,440 Speaker 2: does with the Mexican mafia, the Italian mafia and the 642 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:42,600 Speaker 2: Bloods and the Crypts, which makes no sense because if 643 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:45,720 Speaker 2: you speak out against the Mexican mafia, you better hide 644 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:49,840 Speaker 2: your family. I don't know why kids stay sicklent over 645 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:50,840 Speaker 2: hazing incidents. 646 00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:54,480 Speaker 1: It's like, really like just because their kids, their brains 647 00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:56,560 Speaker 1: aren't developed. What is it a boy's brain developed at 648 00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:59,400 Speaker 1: twenty six, which is why they need a chaperone, which 649 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:01,840 Speaker 1: is why they need someone there, because they're being stupid. 650 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:05,920 Speaker 1: Excuse my sorry, excuse my language, but that doesn't excuse 651 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:09,200 Speaker 1: these kids that step over their dying brothers. 652 00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:12,760 Speaker 2: Guy, he died over fifteen years ago. Now everybody who 653 00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:16,080 Speaker 2: was there that day they have grown up, now they 654 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:18,320 Speaker 2: have kids. I tried to get in touch with every 655 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:21,160 Speaker 2: one of them to do interviews, and I actually got 656 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:23,000 Speaker 2: a couple and then one of them was going to 657 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:27,040 Speaker 2: do it and then back down lest minute. Gross, you 658 00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:29,520 Speaker 2: thought that being a father or something now you would feel, 659 00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:31,600 Speaker 2: you know, I want to help save lives. 660 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:33,440 Speaker 1: You not believe they all backed out. 661 00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:36,480 Speaker 2: No, I reached out to One of the reasons this 662 00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:39,000 Speaker 2: took so long. There was two reasons. One obviously we 663 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:41,440 Speaker 2: were waiting for see what happens with the bill. But 664 00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:43,719 Speaker 2: the other thing we're doing that Garrin are doing is 665 00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:46,640 Speaker 2: to protect the house to the series. You know, I've 666 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:49,200 Speaker 2: reached out to literally over three hundred and fifty people, 667 00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 2: from ex attorney brothers to the heads of all the paternities, 668 00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:55,800 Speaker 2: the n I see all trying to get interviews. They 669 00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:58,520 Speaker 2: want us all to believe that what they're doing is great, 670 00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:00,800 Speaker 2: and they're great organizations and all this charitable work and 671 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,440 Speaker 2: they make better men and all the connections, but they 672 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:05,400 Speaker 2: won't sit down and talk about it on camera. That 673 00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:07,600 Speaker 2: that's really suspicious right there. If you really believe in 674 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:09,840 Speaker 2: what you do and that's what you guys stand for, 675 00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:12,839 Speaker 2: and the only like the only things I even said, 676 00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:14,680 Speaker 2: like even with the head of the NIC, I would 677 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:16,359 Speaker 2: Judd I was going to do an interview with them, 678 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:19,120 Speaker 2: and I even said, this is some filmmakers never do. 679 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:21,440 Speaker 2: I'd send him questions ahead of time, and it was 680 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:23,239 Speaker 2: gonna be fair, and I was willing to ask them 681 00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:25,520 Speaker 2: about the charitable work, ask them you can go ahead 682 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:27,120 Speaker 2: and tell us everything you do, but I'm also gonna 683 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:30,279 Speaker 2: talk about the dead kids to be fair, because you 684 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:33,160 Speaker 2: represent all these organizations and kids are dying, so we 685 00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:35,800 Speaker 2: need to talk about it. And backed out of the 686 00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:38,359 Speaker 2: interview after like two years agoing back and forth. I mean, 687 00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:42,480 Speaker 2: I just I don't understand if these are really horrific accidents, 688 00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:44,640 Speaker 2: if you guys really meanwhile with these kids, and why 689 00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:47,040 Speaker 2: not sit here and tell why not join and actually 690 00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:49,000 Speaker 2: try to make a real difference and like, you know, 691 00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:51,440 Speaker 2: and talk about what happened so. 692 00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:53,479 Speaker 1: Very I would I wonder why. I wonder if they're 693 00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:57,279 Speaker 1: they're worried about their own kids, getting upset with who 694 00:34:57,320 --> 00:34:59,200 Speaker 1: gives a shit? But these are their kids are die? 695 00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:01,960 Speaker 1: Kids are dye? I mean, bottom line, what do you 696 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:06,000 Speaker 1: guys see since the bill was passed? Are you seeing please? 697 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:12,319 Speaker 1: Got a difference in you know, instance instances of you know, 698 00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:15,560 Speaker 1: hazing and I don't know, deadly hazing. 699 00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:18,880 Speaker 2: It's a little tour. No, right, really, but we're just 700 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:20,160 Speaker 2: starting to is just starting to come out. 701 00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:22,320 Speaker 1: I mean, like, wait, what was the bill passed December 702 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:23,640 Speaker 1: twenty twenty four, right. 703 00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:26,080 Speaker 2: Start in January when I started reporting, But the fully 704 00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:30,520 Speaker 2: arende for another few months. So but there is more. 705 00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:32,760 Speaker 2: There seems to be a lot more transparency. We're seeing 706 00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:35,719 Speaker 2: more and more so when something happens at university most 707 00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:38,160 Speaker 2: a little more and a half the universities are fully 708 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:40,640 Speaker 2: compliant and they're actually posting a lot of press, so 709 00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:46,040 Speaker 2: we're seeing it more. We won't know, I feel unfortunately, 710 00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:48,680 Speaker 2: I feel like there hayes An incidents have increased still. 711 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:51,800 Speaker 2: I mean I think, you know, especially with like fraternities 712 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:54,200 Speaker 2: like CAPA Sigma. There's a few fraternities that I mean, 713 00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:56,120 Speaker 2: capa Sigma has been in the press almost every week 714 00:35:56,160 --> 00:36:00,000 Speaker 2: the past eight weeks with another hazing accident. So I'll 715 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:01,719 Speaker 2: I mean, I'll get like Carrie gives his opinion, but 716 00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:03,880 Speaker 2: I feel like we've had an increase in has of 717 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:04,800 Speaker 2: incidents recently. 718 00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:08,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, unbelievable. Gary, You've seen it. 719 00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:12,879 Speaker 3: Too, Yes, it's definitely the problem is getting worse and worse. 720 00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:19,239 Speaker 3: And I did want to speak to something Daniel said, 721 00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,480 Speaker 3: talked about Justin Horace, who is the head of the 722 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:26,319 Speaker 3: n IC when Julie and I spoke. He approached us 723 00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:28,719 Speaker 3: afterwards and wanted to know if we'd be willing to 724 00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:33,600 Speaker 3: work with him and you know, helping him to prevent hazing. 725 00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:36,560 Speaker 3: And we told him, we said, well, if you're willing 726 00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:38,839 Speaker 3: to make significant changes, we would love. 727 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:39,440 Speaker 4: To work with you. 728 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:41,800 Speaker 3: But if you're just going to paint around the edges 729 00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:44,279 Speaker 3: and do a little here and there, they didn't know 730 00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:46,920 Speaker 3: and we never heard from him again. 731 00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:49,880 Speaker 2: By the way, Jennifer, here's something for you. His name 732 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:52,480 Speaker 2: is Judd Horace. He's the head of the NICE Where 733 00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:54,319 Speaker 2: I left it off with him saying, I don't trust 734 00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:55,880 Speaker 2: the way you're going to edit the interview. So if 735 00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:58,120 Speaker 2: you're willing to beat me or talk to me on 736 00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:00,320 Speaker 2: a live podcast, I would do that on that So 737 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:02,319 Speaker 2: why you invite him on a podcast and bring us 738 00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:02,680 Speaker 2: back on? 739 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:03,560 Speaker 1: Okay? 740 00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:05,399 Speaker 2: I have a lot of questions for him, and he's 741 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:09,319 Speaker 2: more welcome to ask us, but you know he ducks things. 742 00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:11,120 Speaker 2: But he said he would go on a live broadcast 743 00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:11,880 Speaker 2: that's unedited. 744 00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:14,959 Speaker 1: Listen. I don't do live broadcasts, but I'll make it work. 745 00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:17,120 Speaker 1: I promise you I'll sit down on stage somewhere and 746 00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:20,160 Speaker 1: I'll be the quote unquote media mediator. I would love 747 00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:23,560 Speaker 1: to do anything that I could to help you guys, 748 00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:25,839 Speaker 1: and to help this cause. I have kids. They are 749 00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:29,480 Speaker 1: again twenty four and twenty six. It was so painful 750 00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:33,200 Speaker 1: to watch this film and open my eyes again. I've 751 00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:35,480 Speaker 1: had two kids go through college, and I would have 752 00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:40,439 Speaker 1: approached things differently now than I did then having seen 753 00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:43,640 Speaker 1: the film. So that is my promise for me to you. 754 00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:46,760 Speaker 2: I mean, I'm personally I'm not trying to ruin people's 755 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:49,200 Speaker 2: college experience, you know. I just don't want people to torture 756 00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:52,759 Speaker 2: people and kill people. But I feel like parents now 757 00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:54,719 Speaker 2: need to be educated more so they can talk rereed. 758 00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:56,840 Speaker 2: I think we need to get the kids younger. I 759 00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:59,160 Speaker 2: think by the time they're going into college, their minds 760 00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:00,880 Speaker 2: made up what they're going to do. You can't really 761 00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:03,520 Speaker 2: hit a kid at college orientation and start telling them 762 00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:05,080 Speaker 2: all this stuff. They kind of need to be aware 763 00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:07,120 Speaker 2: of this when they're thirteen fourteen. They need to grow 764 00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:09,560 Speaker 2: up them or And the good news is gen Zers 765 00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:12,920 Speaker 2: seem to be a little more cautious. Yeah, less Manivoultive 766 00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:15,680 Speaker 2: so I believe, you know, if we get the kids 767 00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:17,719 Speaker 2: in middle school and maybe even freshmen or in high 768 00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:22,360 Speaker 2: school and they start learning about this stuff, hopefully they'll 769 00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:24,799 Speaker 2: you know, they'll think, they'll think twice before getting put 770 00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:26,800 Speaker 2: in these situations, or if they are putting the situation. 771 00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:28,640 Speaker 2: It would be a big difference of kids just called 772 00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:30,280 Speaker 2: nine one one, amen. 773 00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:32,040 Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's the should be the least of it. 774 00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:34,400 Speaker 1: You guys, I want to I have this hard stop, 775 00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:36,480 Speaker 1: but I hope maybe you would consider coming back, souse. 776 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:39,000 Speaker 1: I feel like we have not gotten far enough. I 777 00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:42,439 Speaker 1: have so many more questions and admiration to just heap 778 00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:45,640 Speaker 1: upon the both of you. You are doing God's work. 779 00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:48,399 Speaker 1: And please let me not only me, no, but let 780 00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:50,439 Speaker 1: all of us know. People are gonna people are gonna 781 00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:52,800 Speaker 1: want to get on board with you guys after seeing 782 00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:58,239 Speaker 1: the film. I believe that one hundred percent, So you know, 783 00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:01,520 Speaker 1: start with me. Whatever I can do to help you guys. 784 00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:04,799 Speaker 1: Spread it on social media. Anything you have going on, 785 00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:08,840 Speaker 1: please send my way. I'll put the New Jersey Film 786 00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:11,960 Speaker 1: Festival on my page. I'll talk about it anytime you 787 00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:14,480 Speaker 1: want me to. But you know, thank you for all 788 00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:16,839 Speaker 1: that you're doing. Gary, again, I'm thinking of you. I'm 789 00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:19,080 Speaker 1: glad that I got to know Gary Junior a little 790 00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:21,400 Speaker 1: bit through the film. I love the story you just 791 00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:23,440 Speaker 1: told about him. I won't forget it. I appreciate you 792 00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:25,319 Speaker 1: both so much for coming on and for the work 793 00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:25,879 Speaker 1: that you're doing. 794 00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:28,759 Speaker 2: Yeah, and Gary and Julie will be there as well, 795 00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:31,320 Speaker 2: say with the Oaks, but we'll be at the Jersey 796 00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:34,720 Speaker 2: Short Film Fest le on June sixteenth, and every recept 797 00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:37,200 Speaker 2: chat people can talk to us and get our information. 798 00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:40,680 Speaker 2: We encourage them to bring their kids, now how young 799 00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:42,879 Speaker 2: they are. I can see it because you know it's 800 00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:45,640 Speaker 2: hard to watch, but I think it's important to see 801 00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:46,480 Speaker 2: what's going on here. 802 00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:48,320 Speaker 1: The only reason that I won't be there is because 803 00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:50,080 Speaker 1: my daughter Rachel on her birthday and I don't know 804 00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:52,480 Speaker 1: what plan she's already made. But I am going, really 805 00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:54,680 Speaker 1: going to try. I would love to be there, but 806 00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:56,839 Speaker 1: please hit me up, talk to my producers all help 807 00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:59,240 Speaker 1: in any way. I can post anything that you guys 808 00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:02,080 Speaker 1: want on my own social media. I have a mid 809 00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:06,880 Speaker 1: to pretty big following, so but you know, warm best 810 00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:09,520 Speaker 1: wishes to both of you. Good work, gentlemen, Thank you 811 00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:09,919 Speaker 1: so much. 812 00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:11,200 Speaker 4: Okay, thank you, Jen