WEBVTT - Aleister Crowley: Blowhard Narcissist? 0:00:01.480 --> 0:00:04.280 Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of I 0:00:04.360 --> 0:00:13.039 Heart Radio. Hey, you're welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, 0:00:13.039 --> 0:00:16.120 and there's Chuck and Jerry's here too, and that makes 0:00:16.160 --> 0:00:21.400 this stuff you should know? And Chuck Chuck Chuck. Yes. 0:00:22.239 --> 0:00:24.079 Before we get started, I feel like we should say 0:00:24.079 --> 0:00:26.280 something to some of the newcomers who haven't quite figured 0:00:26.280 --> 0:00:30.960 out our vibe yet. When there's a couple, the two 0:00:31.040 --> 0:00:34.920 we'll call them the twins when we say stuff you 0:00:34.960 --> 0:00:38.040 should know. We even said this on Jeopardy. By the way. 0:00:39.240 --> 0:00:41.000 When we say stuff you should know, we're not saying like, 0:00:41.080 --> 0:00:43.560 why don't you already know this? Stuff? You should know this. 0:00:43.840 --> 0:00:47.199 We're saying, this is so interesting. We we want to 0:00:47.200 --> 0:00:48.800 share this with you. We think you should know this, 0:00:48.880 --> 0:00:50.800 so we want to tell you about it. That's the 0:00:50.920 --> 0:00:53.760 purpose of the title of the episode of the podcast. 0:00:54.640 --> 0:00:58.560 We should call it in this tone, exactly, here's something 0:00:58.600 --> 0:01:04.840 you should know. Guy's okay, it's trying to get that 0:01:04.880 --> 0:01:07.280 out of the way. I love that. Do you feel 0:01:07.280 --> 0:01:10.679 like there's been confusion. I feel like it's been confusion 0:01:10.760 --> 0:01:14.200 for thirteen years among some people. I think some people 0:01:14.200 --> 0:01:16.760 are actually offended by it, Like who these guys think 0:01:16.760 --> 0:01:19.200 they are telling me what I should know, didn't you 0:01:19.200 --> 0:01:26.399 think of Yeah? And it was apparently imperfect because you know, 0:01:26.440 --> 0:01:28.959 I had an alternate title back then, what was yours? 0:01:29.360 --> 0:01:34.280 Do you have something you should know? Guys, I'm going 0:01:34.319 --> 0:01:36.600 to try and do my best to couch my disdain 0:01:36.680 --> 0:01:42.759 for today's topic. Well, I think you already missed that mission. Uh. 0:01:42.800 --> 0:01:46.520 It's about Alistair and there's a lot of just you know, 0:01:46.600 --> 0:01:48.520 someone like him was very divisive. You could go to 0:01:48.600 --> 0:01:51.960 any uh internet board and read a little bit about 0:01:51.960 --> 0:01:56.400 this dude and you will still see so much divisiveness. Uh. 0:01:56.400 --> 0:01:59.280 And there's a lot of conflicting information, including right before 0:01:59.320 --> 0:02:02.600 we recorded recorded I said something about Crowley and he 0:02:02.600 --> 0:02:07.080 said I heard it was Crowley. Yeah, So like, uh, 0:02:07.080 --> 0:02:09.240 but I just you know, I'm gonna go ahead and 0:02:09.240 --> 0:02:11.560 get this out of the way. We'll we'll do an 0:02:11.600 --> 0:02:14.600 overview of this guy. But I found him to be 0:02:15.919 --> 0:02:20.960 above all narcissistic, one of the most self aggrandizing, misogynistic, 0:02:21.840 --> 0:02:26.600 manipulating users of others who didn't really have anything interesting 0:02:26.639 --> 0:02:29.440 to say or add to the good of human kind. Wow, 0:02:29.720 --> 0:02:32.600 in my opinion, and yet this was your pick. What 0:02:32.720 --> 0:02:34.600 made you decide to want to do one on on 0:02:35.040 --> 0:02:38.519 Mr Crowley. Crowley, I didn't know anything that much about him, 0:02:38.560 --> 0:02:40.720 so now I do, and now I can have my 0:02:40.760 --> 0:02:44.080 own informed opinion. But if you go on these message boards, 0:02:44.120 --> 0:02:47.200 you'll find people that say what I said. We'll find 0:02:47.200 --> 0:02:50.600 people that say the man was pure evil and you know, 0:02:50.800 --> 0:02:53.000 blah blah blah of that train. I don't think he was. 0:02:53.040 --> 0:02:57.120 I think he was. Uh. And then other people who 0:02:57.120 --> 0:03:00.880 are like, he's my hero. Yeah. I think in the 0:03:00.919 --> 0:03:04.120 people who uh he is he is a hero too, 0:03:04.400 --> 0:03:07.320 are also not so like disillusion that they're like, no, 0:03:07.440 --> 0:03:10.679 he was great in every way. They're like, he was misunderstood. 0:03:10.760 --> 0:03:13.600 And he also was often his own worst enemy is 0:03:13.680 --> 0:03:16.160 usually how they kind of defended. Because it doesn't matter 0:03:16.200 --> 0:03:18.400 whether he was a hero to you, the most evil 0:03:18.440 --> 0:03:20.679 person in the world. He was frequently called the most 0:03:20.680 --> 0:03:23.400 wicked man in the world or just a total a 0:03:23.480 --> 0:03:27.280 hole who didn't contribute anything. Um, he was a jerk, 0:03:27.360 --> 0:03:30.320 everyone can. Everyone agrees. That's the one thing everyone agrees on, 0:03:30.360 --> 0:03:33.760 that he was a total jerk. Well, I think that's 0:03:33.800 --> 0:03:37.320 where the narcissism is something that really triggers me in particular, 0:03:37.400 --> 0:03:41.440 So that just kept popping up over and over, and 0:03:41.480 --> 0:03:44.160 I just kept saying, who does this guy think he is? 0:03:44.840 --> 0:03:46.640 You must have had a really hard time during the 0:03:46.720 --> 0:03:51.760 narcissist epic epidemic of the two thousand odds. What was that? 0:03:52.600 --> 0:03:55.000 Don't you remember? It was like a whole psychology moving 0:03:55.040 --> 0:03:57.600 through this para psychologist basically tried to make their career 0:03:57.600 --> 0:04:00.960 by trying to prove that there was an entire generation 0:04:01.040 --> 0:04:03.200 of narcissists that have been raised and now every the 0:04:03.200 --> 0:04:06.040 world was about to be ruined, and general was right, 0:04:06.480 --> 0:04:09.800 but it was, you know, pop psychology. What generation was it? 0:04:10.480 --> 0:04:13.280 I guess millennials is what they were who they were 0:04:13.320 --> 0:04:15.520 talking about, which is kind of mean because that was 0:04:15.560 --> 0:04:18.239 at the time everybody's picking on millennials for just about everything. 0:04:18.680 --> 0:04:21.039 And then these two come in and we're like, yeah, 0:04:21.120 --> 0:04:24.560 and get this, they're also narcissists. I don't know about that, 0:04:24.640 --> 0:04:28.000 but I think in Crowley Crowley's case, uh, there's a 0:04:28.120 --> 0:04:32.159 narcissistem that's sisum, that's uh a narcissiystem. Actually I said 0:04:32.160 --> 0:04:36.040 it right, This kind of off the charts, like there's 0:04:36.080 --> 0:04:40.200 a self importance that it self importance really bugs me too. 0:04:40.240 --> 0:04:44.279 So intertwined someone who really thinks they have a lot 0:04:44.320 --> 0:04:48.000 to say. Uh. I mean, you can tell by how 0:04:48.080 --> 0:04:50.680 much this guy wrote, like overwriting, I have so much 0:04:50.720 --> 0:04:54.159 to say, write fifty books and like read any of 0:04:54.160 --> 0:04:57.039 this stuff and it's just like kill me. Okay, So 0:04:57.760 --> 0:04:59.159 all right, so I'm gonna park all that to the 0:04:59.200 --> 0:05:01.479 side and beat totally neutral from here on. Now. Well, 0:05:01.520 --> 0:05:02.760 I don't think you have to be, but I do 0:05:02.839 --> 0:05:05.599 think we should explain why this guy would even be 0:05:05.640 --> 0:05:08.839 worth a podcast episode. Then, um, part of let's just 0:05:08.839 --> 0:05:12.159 say who he is first, because everyone who doesn't know 0:05:12.200 --> 0:05:14.880 Ozzy Osbourne is like, who even is this jerk? Okay, 0:05:14.920 --> 0:05:17.000 So even if you don't even if you're not familiar 0:05:17.000 --> 0:05:19.640 with Ozzy Osbourne, which stop this podcast right now and 0:05:19.680 --> 0:05:22.640 go familiarize yourself with the body of work of Ozzy Osbourne. 0:05:23.000 --> 0:05:25.480 Start with come Back, and then go back to the 0:05:25.960 --> 0:05:30.080 Black Sabbath, right Um, Like, even if you're not familiar 0:05:30.080 --> 0:05:33.880 with that, you probably have seen a picture of Alistair Crowley. 0:05:34.400 --> 0:05:38.240 The picture the basically the picture where he looks like 0:05:38.320 --> 0:05:42.120 he's doing the Olan Mills pose, like Hey, I'm just 0:05:42.240 --> 0:05:45.880 hanging out around the barnyard feeling good right now, but 0:05:45.920 --> 0:05:51.360 he's actually performing a magic ritual oppose um a form 0:05:51.400 --> 0:05:54.120 I think is what they were called. Uh, everybody's seen 0:05:54.120 --> 0:05:57.680 that picture, right, I think so, I mean you probably 0:05:57.760 --> 0:05:59.320 a lot of people have probably seen it. Didn't know 0:05:59.320 --> 0:06:02.560 that's who that was even, right? And even if you 0:06:02.640 --> 0:06:04.640 haven't seen that picture and you still haven't heard of 0:06:04.680 --> 0:06:08.680 Alistair Crowley, if you're a Beatles fan, if you are 0:06:08.839 --> 0:06:12.920 a fan of new age stuff, Uh, if you like crystals, 0:06:13.600 --> 0:06:16.440 if you buy people candles with their birthday horoscope on 0:06:16.520 --> 0:06:20.120 them because you think it's actually going to influence their year, 0:06:21.160 --> 0:06:24.360 you can thank Alistair Crowley because he was basically the 0:06:24.480 --> 0:06:28.080 center point for all of that stuff coming about in 0:06:28.120 --> 0:06:34.520 the West, the idea of occultism, mysticism um, spirituality outside 0:06:34.560 --> 0:06:39.520 of Christianity, Judaism, and even islam um. That the fact 0:06:39.520 --> 0:06:43.400 that it's present in Europe and America today is almost 0:06:43.400 --> 0:06:48.039 exclusively through his efforts and work. Yeah, I mean, I 0:06:48.080 --> 0:06:51.200 will say this, The only reason he's noteworthy is because 0:06:51.240 --> 0:06:54.000 he did what he did when he did it. Uh. 0:06:54.200 --> 0:06:56.480 In the eighties, if you would turn on Jerry Springer 0:06:56.560 --> 0:06:59.480 on on any day, you would see eight Alistair Crowley 0:06:59.560 --> 0:07:04.200 sitting on stage. But this guy was doing it, you know, 0:07:04.720 --> 0:07:08.880 very early on in the nineteen hundreds throughout the early 0:07:09.040 --> 0:07:12.040 twentieth century when that kind of stuff, like that's why 0:07:12.040 --> 0:07:14.840 he got so much press was because he was doing 0:07:14.880 --> 0:07:17.160 things that you dare not speak of it at a 0:07:17.200 --> 0:07:19.280 time when people weren't doing these things, or at least 0:07:19.280 --> 0:07:22.240 out loud. Even today still people are like, this guy 0:07:22.400 --> 0:07:25.240 was really over the top and bounds in a lot 0:07:25.240 --> 0:07:26.720 of ways. Like you said, there's some people in the 0:07:26.720 --> 0:07:29.120 message boards who still are like he was evil. They're 0:07:29.120 --> 0:07:31.520 still scared of him. Uh. And this guy has been 0:07:31.560 --> 0:07:36.880 dead for sixties seventy years, and even when he was alive, 0:07:36.920 --> 0:07:40.440 he really wasn't all that menacing. I mean, um, like 0:07:40.600 --> 0:07:43.760 he tried to be. But if you just stopped and 0:07:43.880 --> 0:07:46.080 we're like, what are you doing and really kind of 0:07:46.200 --> 0:07:50.080 took yourself out of his his little realm, you might 0:07:50.120 --> 0:07:53.600 even laugh at him. Depending on the situation. Yeah, I 0:07:53.600 --> 0:07:57.280 know you would, all right. So let's I guess start 0:07:57.320 --> 0:08:00.720 at the beginning and what kind of breeze through his childhood, 0:08:00.760 --> 0:08:04.080 which was formative for sure. Uh. He was born in 0:08:04.160 --> 0:08:07.720 eighteen seventy five in England. Uh, he's he's a british 0:08:07.760 --> 0:08:10.840 Man and he was born into a wealthy family. His 0:08:10.920 --> 0:08:14.760 family were Brewers, they brewed ale and but we're very, 0:08:14.880 --> 0:08:18.080 very religious, and this was a big, big deal because 0:08:18.160 --> 0:08:21.040 they were members of a of a religious group called 0:08:21.120 --> 0:08:24.640 a Christian group called the Brethren, which was sort of 0:08:24.840 --> 0:08:29.160 just Christianity on steroids as far as uh, you know, 0:08:29.880 --> 0:08:34.319 saying things like sex was bad and sinning was bad, uh, 0:08:34.360 --> 0:08:36.599 to the point where it reversed him. It had the 0:08:36.640 --> 0:08:39.600 opposite effect. Yeah, not only was like sex bad, like 0:08:39.679 --> 0:08:43.520 that's bread and butter Christian stuff. This was like, um, 0:08:43.559 --> 0:08:46.280 like you didn't sign the lease I saw, or you 0:08:46.320 --> 0:08:48.760 didn't like take out life insurance because it suggested that 0:08:48.800 --> 0:08:51.120 you didn't have full faith that Jesus was about to 0:08:51.120 --> 0:08:53.319 come back any day now, like you didn't plan for 0:08:53.360 --> 0:08:55.960 the future. You also didn't take medicine and that ended 0:08:56.040 --> 0:08:59.800 up killing his father, Alistair Crowley's father Um, who developed 0:09:00.160 --> 0:09:04.560 cancer and that apparently was a treatable condition at the time, 0:09:04.559 --> 0:09:06.880 which kind of surprised me. Although they were probably just 0:09:06.880 --> 0:09:09.960 gonna cut his tongue out, that was it, But rather 0:09:10.040 --> 0:09:11.640 where they really is that what they were gonna do? 0:09:12.000 --> 0:09:15.240 I mean when they say cancer of the tongue and surgery, 0:09:15.280 --> 0:09:18.280 than what else could it mean? Okay, sure, so Um, 0:09:18.320 --> 0:09:21.400 the Brethren that of which he was a member, apparently 0:09:21.400 --> 0:09:24.520 they were an equal egalitarian group. They all kind of 0:09:24.520 --> 0:09:26.240 got together and like, we don't think you should do that. 0:09:26.320 --> 0:09:27.760 We think that it kind of shows a lack of 0:09:27.800 --> 0:09:29.880 faith in Jesus. And he was like, Okay, I'm just 0:09:29.920 --> 0:09:33.080 gonna roll the dice and see what happens. And he died. Um. 0:09:33.120 --> 0:09:37.320 And that apparently really soured Alistair Crowley on Christianity because 0:09:37.320 --> 0:09:39.040 he really looked up to his father one. But I 0:09:39.040 --> 0:09:42.679 think he also really fully bought like the Brethren as well. Um, 0:09:42.800 --> 0:09:47.240 and this was a huge like jarring um crash into 0:09:47.240 --> 0:09:50.679 a wall. Yeah, you know, it left him with a 0:09:50.679 --> 0:09:53.880 lot of money when he would become an adult, I think. Uh, 0:09:53.960 --> 0:09:55.640 and the Grabster helped us out with this one. I 0:09:55.640 --> 0:09:57.960 think he said it was about two million bucks in 0:09:58.040 --> 0:10:00.920 today's money, so a lot of money, but as we 0:10:00.960 --> 0:10:05.160 will see, certainly not enough to last a lifetime even 0:10:05.200 --> 0:10:07.720 back then, at least the way he burned through it. Definitely, 0:10:07.960 --> 0:10:10.800 it's amazing it lasted as long as it did. Really. Yeah, 0:10:10.880 --> 0:10:12.880 it made me wonder how much drugs cost back then, 0:10:12.960 --> 0:10:16.000 because he bought a lot of them. Yeah, but he 0:10:16.040 --> 0:10:18.360 could just go down to the local chemist or you know, 0:10:18.600 --> 0:10:21.840 um pharmacy and buy him over the counter. So they 0:10:21.840 --> 0:10:25.160 were relatively cheap, I guess I would guess. So, yeah, alright, 0:10:25.240 --> 0:10:29.520 chemist doesn't try to tax you. Yeah, everyone knows pharmaceuticals 0:10:29.520 --> 0:10:34.360 are super cheap. Uh. So he was left with his mom, 0:10:34.440 --> 0:10:36.680 who you know, by all accounts, they didn't have the 0:10:36.679 --> 0:10:42.000 best relationship. Um. She was also super religious. I think 0:10:42.120 --> 0:10:44.240 ed dug up in one biography that he sort of 0:10:44.280 --> 0:10:47.160 treated her as if she were the help uh in 0:10:47.240 --> 0:10:50.920 one of the servants, and she in fact referred to 0:10:51.040 --> 0:10:54.720 him as the Beast, which was from the Book of Revelations, 0:10:54.720 --> 0:10:56.840 in a name that he would later I think he 0:10:56.920 --> 0:10:59.560 kind of keep on using for himself. Yeah, And I 0:10:59.559 --> 0:11:01.760 saw that she was I saw both that she was 0:11:01.960 --> 0:11:05.360 jokingly calling him that in a way but also just 0:11:05.559 --> 0:11:08.439 chiding him for his bad behavior, or that she was 0:11:08.480 --> 0:11:10.360 a very, very pious person, and that she would not 0:11:10.440 --> 0:11:12.920 have called him the Beast unless she was like genuinely 0:11:13.720 --> 0:11:17.400 disgrace and and um abhorred by his behavior, you know 0:11:17.440 --> 0:11:19.520 what I mean, Like she she wouldn't have used that lightly. 0:11:19.600 --> 0:11:21.240 So I'm not sure I'm gonna go with that. The 0:11:21.280 --> 0:11:27.520 second interpretation because it's it's scarier. Uh. So then he 0:11:27.600 --> 0:11:32.640 eventually makes his way to Cambridge in he didn't graduate, 0:11:32.760 --> 0:11:37.360 but this was where he really kind of started getting 0:11:37.360 --> 0:11:40.320 interested in two things that would define the rest of 0:11:40.320 --> 0:11:46.640 his life. Uh, the occult and sex. Yeah, for sure, 0:11:47.040 --> 0:11:50.240 that's where his his life Countries is typical going to 0:11:50.320 --> 0:11:55.040 college stuff, you know, sort of um, and and he 0:11:55.080 --> 0:11:56.760 was also he got into some other stuff that we 0:11:57.040 --> 0:11:58.960 don't have to get into it much, but he he 0:11:59.120 --> 0:12:01.960 was a mass or not like a grand master, but 0:12:02.000 --> 0:12:04.000 he was a really good chess player for a while 0:12:04.080 --> 0:12:05.880 then the grand master from what I saw, like if 0:12:05.920 --> 0:12:09.840 he had pursued it, yeah, yeah, like he was considering 0:12:09.840 --> 0:12:12.760 a profession like of chess. But he also was a 0:12:12.840 --> 0:12:18.080 noteworthy mountaineer. Um. He was in the party that attempted 0:12:18.160 --> 0:12:21.840 the first British attempt on K two. Ever it was unsuccessful, 0:12:21.880 --> 0:12:24.400 but they ended up breaking a record of of living 0:12:24.400 --> 0:12:27.319 at twenty thousand feet longer than anybody else. Like, he 0:12:27.400 --> 0:12:30.880 was a serious mountaineer for a very long time. But 0:12:31.040 --> 0:12:32.800 as he just kind of got a little older, and 0:12:32.920 --> 0:12:35.280 especially as he got a little further into like magic 0:12:35.360 --> 0:12:39.679 and sex in particular, he just kind of lost as 0:12:39.800 --> 0:12:42.280 much interest, like those were his life's passions, and all 0:12:42.320 --> 0:12:44.360 of a sudden he's like, I think I'd rather have 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:47.640 sex of every single kind I can possibly think of 0:12:47.920 --> 0:12:50.800 than than climb a mountain. And he still climbed some mountains, 0:12:50.840 --> 0:12:53.160 and there were some huge issues that came out of 0:12:53.160 --> 0:12:57.240 that pursuit and at times, but um, like you said, 0:12:57.240 --> 0:12:59.920 more than anything, he directed his life towards magic and sex. 0:13:00.480 --> 0:13:06.559 He says, I think I'd rather climb sexual mountains sexual right, Um, well, 0:13:06.600 --> 0:13:09.280 should we take a break already? I think we should. Okay, Well, 0:13:09.400 --> 0:13:11.800 then you just answered your own question. You begged the 0:13:11.880 --> 0:13:14.480 question in the best sense of that term. All right, 0:13:14.520 --> 0:13:16.760 We're gonna take a little break here. I'm gonna collect 0:13:16.800 --> 0:13:20.520 myself and we'll talk more about sex magic right after this. 0:13:51.920 --> 0:13:54.400 I think before we talk about sex magic, can we 0:13:54.440 --> 0:14:00.240 talk a little bit about his poetry. Sure? Um, he 0:14:00.280 --> 0:14:03.599 was a writer, and like we said, he wrote up 0:14:03.640 --> 0:14:05.880 to about fifty books, and some of these were collected 0:14:06.280 --> 0:14:08.280 and published just from stuff he had written along the 0:14:08.320 --> 0:14:10.560 way after his death. But he felt like he had 0:14:10.559 --> 0:14:12.640 a lot to say to the world. Wrote a lot 0:14:12.679 --> 0:14:16.440 of erotic poetry. The first collection was called White Stains, 0:14:17.400 --> 0:14:21.120 under the pseudonym Archibald Bishop. I don't have to work 0:14:21.160 --> 0:14:22.800 too hard to figure out what that means. I mean, 0:14:22.840 --> 0:14:25.880 it's so juvenile, it's hilarious a lot. Did you ever 0:14:25.920 --> 0:14:28.160 read did you read any of his poetry? No? I 0:14:28.160 --> 0:14:30.360 mean I saw like clips and snippets of it, and 0:14:30.440 --> 0:14:33.200 just just from reading so much stuff about how how 0:14:33.240 --> 0:14:35.360 not great it was, I was like, I'm not reading this. 0:14:36.480 --> 0:14:38.720 I'm not gonna read it. In fact, I can't read 0:14:38.760 --> 0:14:40.680 it on the air because it's a family friendly show. 0:14:41.240 --> 0:14:46.640 All of them start there once was a man from Nantucket. Uh, 0:14:46.920 --> 0:14:51.080 there once was a narcissist from Nantucket. But there's a 0:14:51.120 --> 0:14:55.080 poem I would encourage our readers of age to go 0:14:55.200 --> 0:14:58.200 look up. And if you're not of age, don't do it. 0:14:58.600 --> 0:15:01.680 If you're listening with your kid right now, distract him briefly. 0:15:02.000 --> 0:15:05.880 But it's a poem called Celia Farts c E l 0:15:06.000 --> 0:15:09.280 I A P H A r T S no no 0:15:10.600 --> 0:15:12.840 f A r T s uh. And it's just a 0:15:12.880 --> 0:15:15.240 great example. And I'm sure he had more, you know, 0:15:15.960 --> 0:15:19.960 I guess legitimate poetry than this. But reading Celia Farts 0:15:20.000 --> 0:15:22.720 really soured me on what I felt like he thought 0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:25.120 he had to say to the world. Well, yeah, that's 0:15:25.120 --> 0:15:26.880 the thing. I think one of the things is is 0:15:27.000 --> 0:15:30.120 like it'd be I see what you're saying. It's a 0:15:30.160 --> 0:15:36.560 little bit um wow. Uh yeah, yeah I did. There's 0:15:36.600 --> 0:15:38.880 a Pinterest post that has it. It's like the first 0:15:38.880 --> 0:15:41.160 thing that comes up, so you don't even have to 0:15:41.160 --> 0:15:44.680 really click in anywhere. But but I think one of 0:15:44.720 --> 0:15:46.560 the things that's so off putting about him is he's 0:15:46.560 --> 0:15:50.320 like a Victorian, maybe an Edwardian, a Regency era, but 0:15:50.400 --> 0:15:55.240 he's like of that era. He's using words like farts 0:15:55.240 --> 0:15:58.440 and like it just keeps getting worse than that poem, 0:15:58.480 --> 0:16:02.440 and it's just like so it's just so like crude today, 0:16:02.480 --> 0:16:05.040 Like if somebody published that stuff today, you'd be like, 0:16:05.080 --> 0:16:08.320 this is crude and lowbrow. But somebody from the era 0:16:08.480 --> 0:16:12.080 doing it makes it exponentially worse for some reason. And 0:16:12.120 --> 0:16:16.240 I think that that is exactly what he was into. Yeah, well, 0:16:16.240 --> 0:16:21.360 he certainly loved to push buttons. Uh. He rejected Christianity 0:16:21.440 --> 0:16:24.520 so forcefully that he decided, not only am I not 0:16:24.600 --> 0:16:26.800 into it, but I want to be the opposite of it. 0:16:26.880 --> 0:16:30.320 I think that the only problem with sin are the 0:16:30.360 --> 0:16:32.880 hang ups that people put on it and that to 0:16:33.040 --> 0:16:36.680 be truly happy, you should just send sin sin and 0:16:36.720 --> 0:16:38.440 I'm really good at it. And so that's what I'm 0:16:38.440 --> 0:16:41.480 gonna do with my life. Yeah, and that this is 0:16:41.480 --> 0:16:43.920 what he did. And he did um he, like I said, 0:16:43.960 --> 0:16:46.520 like any basically any sex act you can think of. 0:16:46.600 --> 0:16:49.760 I did not see any accusations of bestiality, which really 0:16:49.800 --> 0:16:52.920 surprised me. Did oh you did? Okay? Did did you 0:16:52.960 --> 0:16:55.040 get the impression that he actually did that, because I 0:16:55.160 --> 0:16:58.040 again would be surprised if he hadn't you know, met 0:16:58.040 --> 0:17:02.960 a donkey or two in his time? Saw that I 0:17:03.000 --> 0:17:05.359 saw And we'll get to this his time when he 0:17:05.400 --> 0:17:08.720 was living in his slum commune in Italy. Things got 0:17:08.800 --> 0:17:12.879 really weird there. And of course I don't think we 0:17:12.920 --> 0:17:16.000 even said why. There's a lot of conflicting information he 0:17:16.480 --> 0:17:18.320 You can never tell when he was being straight or 0:17:18.320 --> 0:17:20.680 writing the truth, and you can never tell when someone 0:17:20.760 --> 0:17:22.880 had when he had made an enemy and they were 0:17:22.880 --> 0:17:25.399 writing something not true to make him look even worse. 0:17:26.320 --> 0:17:28.199 It's really hard to parse out the truth. But I 0:17:28.240 --> 0:17:32.560 did see stuff about uh, not him committing a sexual 0:17:32.600 --> 0:17:35.680 act with an animal, but forcing a woman uh to 0:17:36.040 --> 0:17:40.159 with a goat. Okay, And that I mean That's the 0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:43.199 thing is it is plausible. And the reason why is 0:17:43.240 --> 0:17:49.240 because he really did have a lot of sways, right, 0:17:50.200 --> 0:17:53.920 he added a lot. He had enough sway over his acolytes, 0:17:54.240 --> 0:17:57.000 gearing like his peak that he could have gotten something 0:17:57.040 --> 0:18:00.080 like that accomplished, if he'd really set his mind to it. 0:18:00.160 --> 0:18:02.960 It's entirely possible. It did happen. He was into some 0:18:03.080 --> 0:18:06.320 really freaky stuff, but like you said, you can't really 0:18:06.359 --> 0:18:08.199 tell what was made up by his enemies. And he 0:18:08.280 --> 0:18:12.480 had almost nothing but enemies. He had people who just 0:18:12.600 --> 0:18:15.280 had just met him and were under a spell, and 0:18:15.680 --> 0:18:18.359 enemies which were people who had known him for longer 0:18:18.400 --> 0:18:21.760 than a couple of years. That was basically his his world. 0:18:21.800 --> 0:18:25.480 Like he didn't have friends necessarily, actually not even necessarily. 0:18:25.680 --> 0:18:29.080 He didn't have friends. He had people who were under 0:18:29.080 --> 0:18:31.760 a spell or had had just come out from under 0:18:31.800 --> 0:18:34.199 a spell. Yeah, And that I think that's one of 0:18:34.240 --> 0:18:37.080 the things too, that really helped to reinforce how I 0:18:37.119 --> 0:18:40.640 feel about him, is that, um, well, first of all, 0:18:40.680 --> 0:18:44.800 anyone who doesn't have old friends, you got to investigate 0:18:44.800 --> 0:18:47.720 that a little further, I think. But sure things happen 0:18:47.800 --> 0:18:50.560 in life, but in his case, I think the fact 0:18:50.560 --> 0:18:54.560 that he was. I think had he given the opportunity, 0:18:54.600 --> 0:18:58.399 he would have started a massive money making religion allah 0:18:58.480 --> 0:19:00.920 l Ron Hubbard. But it's seems like he could never 0:19:00.960 --> 0:19:03.280 attract more than a handful of people at a time. 0:19:03.600 --> 0:19:09.760 And I think that's for a reason, Yes, personality based reason. 0:19:10.000 --> 0:19:11.840 I think the proof is in the pudding. He set 0:19:11.880 --> 0:19:15.720 out to create a huge, massive religion that would change 0:19:15.760 --> 0:19:18.600 the world. That was his goal, as we see, and 0:19:18.840 --> 0:19:22.000 just it didn't happen. And he also died um without 0:19:22.280 --> 0:19:26.840 money even though he had money, despite you know, like 0:19:26.920 --> 0:19:30.840 actually trying to perform magic rictuals to attract money. So like, yeah, 0:19:30.920 --> 0:19:33.960 he his intent was there. But the thing to me, 0:19:34.240 --> 0:19:37.480 the thing to me that makes him legit in some way, 0:19:37.720 --> 0:19:41.120 is that he was still performing rituals, still performing magic 0:19:41.760 --> 0:19:45.840 um to the end, Like he never gave up on it, 0:19:45.920 --> 0:19:48.119 even though like it didn't bring him the fame and 0:19:48.119 --> 0:19:50.399 the fortune and it didn't change the world that he wanted, 0:19:50.480 --> 0:19:55.080 Like he dedicated, truly dedicated his life to that. Yeah, 0:19:55.119 --> 0:19:57.360 I don't think he was a charlatan. I do think 0:19:57.400 --> 0:20:02.600 that he bought into this garbage himself, so you know, 0:20:03.080 --> 0:20:06.399 he was authentic, definitely. I think that's actually what I 0:20:06.440 --> 0:20:09.720 was trying to say, So, should we go to Stockholm? Yeah, 0:20:09.760 --> 0:20:12.120 I think we should go to Stockholm because, um, that 0:20:12.200 --> 0:20:16.520 is where his one of his first mystical experiences happened, 0:20:16.560 --> 0:20:19.200 or that's the way he described it at least. Yeah, 0:20:19.240 --> 0:20:21.359 and it was am I reading this right and that 0:20:21.440 --> 0:20:26.159 this mystical experience basically was a result of having homosexual 0:20:26.200 --> 0:20:31.880 intercourse for the first time. Yeah, gay sex, Okay, good 0:20:31.880 --> 0:20:34.440 for him. And hey, I want to be clear, I'm 0:20:34.480 --> 0:20:38.280 not knocking in anyone's kink because he had a lot 0:20:38.400 --> 0:20:41.240 of them. Not I'm not knocking that at all. What 0:20:41.359 --> 0:20:44.040 someone does in the bedroom is like, that's fine, and 0:20:44.080 --> 0:20:46.560 that's great. I support all of that. But I think 0:20:46.760 --> 0:20:50.280 his self importance of like having to detail and write 0:20:50.320 --> 0:20:53.960 about it all as a guide book for others. Uh, 0:20:54.280 --> 0:20:57.800 just it is. It was a real turn off for me. So, um, 0:20:58.800 --> 0:21:01.399 the reason that he was detailing this stuff and writing 0:21:01.400 --> 0:21:05.040 a guide book for others using things like sex. Um. 0:21:05.119 --> 0:21:07.280 And by the way, once he was like, oh, actually 0:21:07.320 --> 0:21:10.160 I'm bisexual. Like for the rest of his life he um. 0:21:10.280 --> 0:21:14.879 He had relationships with men and women, and there was 0:21:14.920 --> 0:21:17.440 one man in particular, Jerome paul It, that he later 0:21:17.480 --> 0:21:21.359 said he really regretted breaking off his relationship with because 0:21:21.480 --> 0:21:24.520 paul It wasn't into the occult. But he wrote that, Um, 0:21:24.520 --> 0:21:28.359 with paul It, he had achieved ideal intimacy, which the 0:21:28.400 --> 0:21:31.680 Greeks considered the greatest glory of manhood and the most 0:21:31.720 --> 0:21:35.000 precious prize of life. So that's how he described one 0:21:35.040 --> 0:21:39.439 of his his relationships with a man. Yeah. Um, and 0:21:39.440 --> 0:21:43.080 that really says a lot for somebody who didn't necessarily 0:21:43.080 --> 0:21:47.160 consider himself bisexual. I think he more than anything considered 0:21:47.240 --> 0:21:50.159 himself straight. He just had, like you know, gay sex 0:21:50.240 --> 0:21:52.320 from time to time when the when it suited him. 0:21:52.480 --> 0:21:54.679 And sometimes some of those acolytes, like you said, he 0:21:54.720 --> 0:21:57.040 had no more than a few people around him, sometimes 0:21:57.080 --> 0:21:59.440 it was all men. And if you were an acolyte 0:21:59.480 --> 0:22:02.840 of his, not only were you helping him perform magic rituals, 0:22:03.160 --> 0:22:07.960 you were helping him perform sex magic too. And um, 0:22:08.240 --> 0:22:10.320 who knows where that was going to go. But very often, 0:22:10.440 --> 0:22:14.200 more often than not, it was degrading. He used sexual 0:22:14.240 --> 0:22:19.000 degradation as a way, like a path, like a magic ritual, 0:22:19.280 --> 0:22:21.920 but also it was to show power and dominance over 0:22:21.960 --> 0:22:26.560 his acolytes as well. Yeah, and for some reason, and 0:22:26.600 --> 0:22:28.639 again like if you look at the S and M 0:22:28.640 --> 0:22:32.399 community that it didn't feel like that to me, because 0:22:32.400 --> 0:22:35.560 if that's your kink, that's fine too. This felt more 0:22:35.680 --> 0:22:41.040 like a manipulative user of people than any particular sexual kink. 0:22:42.200 --> 0:22:44.720 Or maybe he was born at a time where I 0:22:44.760 --> 0:22:46.480