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Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Greace.

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Speaker 2: It never ends with this guy. Here is a guy

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Speaker 2: with fame. He is a TV star money. He's making

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Speaker 2: millions of dollars tens of thousands of dollars per episode

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Speaker 2: on the hit TV program Empire. Many argue he's handsome,

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Speaker 2: well educated, loving family. But Jesse Smollette will not go away.

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Speaker 2: Don't tell me you don't remember Jesse Smollette. I will

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Speaker 2: never forget this guy. All that money, all that fame,

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Speaker 2: but he wants more. So he launches a fake, a

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Speaker 2: fake racist hate crime on himself, has two of his

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Speaker 2: friends conduct the fake hate crime, and now he's mad

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Speaker 2: that nobody believes him. As a matter of fact, he

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Speaker 2: was convicted in the last hour. A judge has to

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Speaker 2: step in. An Illinois court slaps down the Empire star

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Speaker 2: Jesse Smollette's appeal against his disorderly conduct conviction, meaning he

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Speaker 2: will have to spend wait for it, a whopping one

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Speaker 2: hundred and fifty days behind bars. Okay, who could forget

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Speaker 2: the time and money, the angst, the confusion, the pain,

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Speaker 2: the emotion caused by this TV star. Jesse Smollett's claim

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Speaker 2: that anti gay, racist hate crime was perpetrated on him,

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Speaker 2: and then it turns out he did it to himself.

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Speaker 2: Uh what to make more money from empire. He was

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Speaker 2: convicted on five counts disorderly conduct. He could have gotten

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Speaker 2: a lot worse. He was sent to one hundred and

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Speaker 2: fifty days in jail, thirty months on probation, one hundred

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Speaker 2: and twenty thousand dollars restitution to Chicago, and a twenty

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Speaker 2: five thousand dollars fine. Wait for it, Smolett only served

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Speaker 2: six days behind bars, flining and complaining and crying. He

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Speaker 2: was released when his lawyer filed an appeal. It's called

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Speaker 2: an appeal bond. I've never seen one granted in all

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Speaker 2: the cases I tried. That means after you're convicted, you

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Speaker 2: don't go to jail, you get out of jail, and

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Speaker 2: you wait for an appeals court to rule on your case. Seriously.

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Speaker 2: Well it happened and he got out. Well now he's

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Speaker 2: going back. But what was the case all about? I

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Speaker 2: want you to listen to this from the Today Show.

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Speaker 2: Not suicidal and our innicent.

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Speaker 3: I could have said that I was guilty.

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Speaker 4: A long time ago.

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Speaker 3: Even after a Cook County judge sentenced Jusse Smilett to

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Speaker 3: one hundred and fifty days in jail, the disgraced actor

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Speaker 3: turned convicted felon, sticking to his story.

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Speaker 4: If I did this, then it means that I sucked

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Speaker 4: my fist in the fears of blackhamers in the.

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Speaker 3: Spectry for over four hundred years. The former Empire Star's

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Speaker 3: unwavering claim of innocence ultimately his undoing.

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Speaker 5: You committed hour upon hour upon hour.

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Speaker 2: Of pure perjury.

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Speaker 3: Judge James Lynn, sentencing Smelet to thirty months felony probation,

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Speaker 3: including that jail time, ordering he paid more than one

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Speaker 3: hundred and twenty thousand dollars in restitution to the City

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Speaker 3: of Chicago and pay the maximum fine twenty five thousand dollars.

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Speaker 6: You've turned your life upside down fire misconduct in Shenanigan's.

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Speaker 5: You've destroyed your life as you knew it.

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Speaker 3: As a defiance, Malette was taken into custody, his family

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Speaker 3: blasting the judge's decision.

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Speaker 2: He's the reason why folks aren't gonna report hate crimes.

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Speaker 2: They're the reason why folks aren't going to report hate crimes. Okay,

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Speaker 2: you heard Jesse Smilett going down swinging, lying through his

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Speaker 2: teeth till the end. When you hear that reporter going

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Speaker 2: on and on about thirty months felony probation, probation, that

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Speaker 2: means you're not in jail. This guy, after all he

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Speaker 2: put everyone through, after the disservice he did to real

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Speaker 2: crime victims, he's gonna do about five days behind bars.

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Speaker 2: He got says to one hundred and fifty days, and

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Speaker 2: now he's done about five days. I meansy Grace, this

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Speaker 2: is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us, with

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Speaker 2: me an all star panel. Matthew Mangino, former District Attorney

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Speaker 2: Lawrence County, former Parole Board member, author Executioners Told Doctor

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Speaker 2: Sherry Schwartz for and Sic psychologists specializing in capital crimes.

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Speaker 2: Author of Criminal Behavior and Where Law and Psychology Intersect.

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Speaker 2: Paul Zite, former police commander. Oh, I can't wait to

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Speaker 2: hear what he's going to say, author of Stop Him

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Speaker 2: From Killing Them on Amazon Kindle. But first to Alexis

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Speaker 2: to Restaurant Crime Online dot Com investigative reporter Alexis, you know,

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Speaker 2: the whole thing goes all the way back to his

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Speaker 2: ridiculous claims of a hate crime perpetrated upon him, because

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Speaker 2: he I guess his main thing was that he was

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Speaker 2: gay or because he was black. It was a mixture.

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Speaker 2: When he went out for a three a m subway run.

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Speaker 2: How in the hey has Smolette gotten out after just

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Speaker 2: a few days.

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Speaker 7: So the judge spent almost an hour telling him all

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Speaker 7: of the reasons why he was putting him behind bars.

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Speaker 7: The reason was he was found guilty of five telling

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Speaker 7: count of this orarly conduct for lying to police about

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Speaker 7: the take crime. He says that he was attacked at

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Speaker 7: two o'clock in the morning in Chicago in the dead

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Speaker 7: of winter, absolutely sub freezing weather. Two men, he claimed,

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Speaker 7: wearing red hats that said make America Great Again, MAGA hats.

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Speaker 7: He blamed us on Trump. Said they attacked him and

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Speaker 7: said this is Trump Country and beat him up and

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Speaker 7: tried to hang him by putting a newsover ah. The

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Speaker 7: jury said this was a big, fat lie and found

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Speaker 7: him guilty of lying. So the judge sentences him to jail.

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Speaker 7: He appeals, well, he first asked the judge, can I

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Speaker 7: have an appeal? The judge says no, You're going right

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Speaker 7: to jail.

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Speaker 2: Goes to jail.

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Speaker 7: His lawyers file acclaim with the appellate court and say

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Speaker 7: he has been sentenced to only five months in jail,

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Speaker 7: only five months. We want to appeal this. We're going

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Speaker 7: to drag this appeal out longer than five months. So

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Speaker 7: if you keep our client in for the whole five

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Speaker 7: months and then when it's done, the appeal court overturns

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Speaker 7: a condition, she will have unnecessarily served this time.

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Speaker 2: I don't care. Jesse Smollett hate crime faker walks out

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Speaker 2: of jail after release serving less than a week of

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Speaker 2: just one hundred and fifty days. Hey, does everybody remember

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Speaker 2: when Paris Hilton went to jail and she was going

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Speaker 2: to do what she got, like a six month sentence

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Speaker 2: something like that she did three weeks maybe because the

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Speaker 2: jail was over a crowded. Was that Nicole Ritchie one

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Speaker 2: of them and it was high drama. And the bottom

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Speaker 2: line is when you have a sentence like one hundred

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Speaker 2: and fifty days, you're going to get out really quickly anyway.

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Speaker 2: But to petition the court to get out early after

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Speaker 2: what has gone down, take a listen to our twenty

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Speaker 2: nine Our friend Patrick ELDWOODWGN.

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Speaker 4: Almost three years after he reported being attacked amid homophobic

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Speaker 4: and racial slurs. After Jesse Smolette took the stand in

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Speaker 4: his own defense. While being questioned by his attorney, Smolette

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Speaker 4: described the early morning incident, saying he had gone out

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Speaker 4: to Walgreens to buy eggs, but it was closed, so

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Speaker 4: he opted for a subway sandwich store instead. On his

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Speaker 4: way home, Smolette says he crossed paths with two men

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Speaker 4: wearing ski masks, with one of them yelling racial and

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Speaker 4: homophobic slurs and saying he was in Maga country while

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Speaker 4: recognizing him as an actor on the TV show Empire.

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Speaker 4: Smollette says he threw a punch in his defense but

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Speaker 4: doesn't know if it landed. He fell to the ground

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Speaker 4: and was kicked. He testified that after the attack he

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Speaker 4: didn't even know there was a noose around his neck

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Speaker 4: because quote, I was getting my ass whooped unquote.

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Speaker 2: But yet there were no injuries. He had a time

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Speaker 2: little cut, and I don't know how many pictures he

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Speaker 2: took of it. Now take a listen to our cut

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Speaker 2: thirty three our friend Charlie Demarcy, Chicago.

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Speaker 6: The actor also told the jury that he would do

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Speaker 6: drugs with abel Osindaro and the two had a physical relationship.

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Speaker 6: He said during a bath house encounter, there was some touching.

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Speaker 6: Abel denies those claims.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm ready to do what I gotta do.

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Speaker 6: It's likely that the case will hinge on whether the

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Speaker 6: jury believes Smolet or brothers Abel and ola Osindaro, who

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Speaker 6: testified Smollett paid them to fake the attack.

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Speaker 2: Right, let me understand something, Alexis Tereschut. The payment was

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Speaker 2: tracked down, wasn't it a check? The payment was tracked down,

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Speaker 2: And he tried to tell the jury that these two

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Speaker 2: guys that he did drugs with, that he went to

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Speaker 2: a bath house with, that he allegedly had rheumatic attachment

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Speaker 2: with sex with, they're the ones that attacked him and

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Speaker 2: there attacked him, and they're the ones he couldn't identify.

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Speaker 2: No wonder the jury didn't believe him exactly.

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Speaker 7: These are guys that he's been friends with for years,

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Speaker 7: and in fact they were known to people on the

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Speaker 7: set of Empire. They are personal trained. But he wrote

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Speaker 7: them a check, an absolute paper trail, undeniable paper trail,

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Speaker 7: even though he says it was for something else made

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Speaker 7: maybe drugs or maybe anything else. He can't really remember.

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Speaker 7: And also he doesn't care because these two he doesn't

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Speaker 7: even know if they were the ones that attacked him,

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Speaker 7: even though they were caught on.

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Speaker 1: Video crime stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: Oh yes, in the last hours in Illinois, court slaps

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Speaker 2: down Jesse Smoilett the TV stars appeal against his misdemeanor

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Speaker 2: disorderly conduct convictions, meaning boo hoo, he'll have to spend

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Speaker 2: one hundred and fifty days behind bars. I think you

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Speaker 2: should spend at least that much just for the irritation

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Speaker 2: he's cost me. For beat's sake, the way this thing unfolded. Remember,

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Speaker 2: I think we need a shrink, and we need one

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Speaker 2: pretty quickly. Hate crime faker Empire star Jesse Smolette straight

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Speaker 2: out to doctor Sherry Schwartz. Forensic psychologists joining us, this

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Speaker 2: guy needs a shrink.

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Speaker 8: Well, that does seem to be the consensus, at least

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Speaker 8: in the psychological community, Nancy. Anybody who fakes something like

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Speaker 8: this an illness a crime where they fakes injury, typically

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Speaker 8: what we start to look at is something called factitious disorder.

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Speaker 8: If you think about Munchausen's by proxy, when that's done

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Speaker 8: to other people to get sympathy for yourself, this is

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Speaker 8: kind of where you do it to yourself to get

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Speaker 8: sympathy for yourself. But in this case he might also have,

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Speaker 8: you know, not so much a mental health disorder like

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Speaker 8: that where he's almost sympathetic. But this this might have

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Speaker 8: been for personal gain in terms of promoting some movie

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Speaker 8: project that he was working on to get publicity.

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Speaker 2: Oh he got publicity, doctor Sherry Schwartz didn't. Alexis Terrest, Chuck.

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Speaker 2: But who's ever going to hire him ever?

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Speaker 9: That's the thing.

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Speaker 7: This is his career is absolutely over. Empire was a

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Speaker 7: huge chanceay with his career.

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Speaker 2: What about Lady Justice? Okay, back to you, Alexis Terrest, Chuck.

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Speaker 2: I know you're in Hollywood, and that's your mindset. My

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Speaker 2: mindset is about how hard I thought to prove convictions,

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Speaker 2: to prove cases, put a jury through hen double l

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Speaker 2: missing work, away from your children, away from your home.

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Speaker 2: You know, nothing drives me crazier than have to be

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Speaker 2: away from the twins and there in court all day long.

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Speaker 2: Listen to this guy whined about how bad he's got

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Speaker 2: How much is he getting paid an episode?

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Speaker 7: Alexis two hundred thousand dollars an episode? An episode?

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Speaker 2: Did you hear that? Did you hear that? Fining carrying on?

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Speaker 2: And he's been behind bars what's five times twenty four?

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Speaker 2: Is that one hundred and twenty something. He hasn't even

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Speaker 2: been behind bars two hundred hours and he's out.

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Speaker 7: He has he has walked three The appellate court has

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Speaker 7: three judges. It was not a unanimous decision. It was

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Speaker 7: two to one majority rules. And he walked out of

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Speaker 7: court at eight pm Chicago time in a whole Hollywood production. Again.

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Speaker 7: You know, Jesse has five bodyguards, he has family members,

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Speaker 7: he has defense attorneys, the biggest entourage you've ever seen

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Speaker 7: outside of the TV show Entourage. It's like everything is

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Speaker 7: a Hollywood production for him.

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Speaker 2: Guys, take listen to our cut thirty two our friends

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Speaker 2: from WG.

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Speaker 4: And small Let testified he resisted calling Chicago police because quote,

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Speaker 4: I am a black man in America. I do not

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Speaker 4: trust the police un quote, but later he said responding

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Speaker 4: officers treated him very well. He testified as a gay

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Speaker 4: black man, he felt the incident would emasculate him and

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Speaker 4: hurt his chances for certain types of future acting roles.

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Speaker 4: Earlier in the days, Smollett testified he met the Osandairo

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Speaker 4: brothers through his job on Empire, and that he went

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Speaker 4: to a Chicago bathhouse with one of them where they

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Speaker 4: did drugs and made out. Prosecutors say he recruited the

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Speaker 4: brothers to stage the attack as way to pump up

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Speaker 4: his career.

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Speaker 2: Who knows, because reportedly the motive for the original race

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Speaker 2: attack staging was to drum up here about himself so

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Speaker 2: he would make more money for his role in Empire.

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Speaker 2: You know, all the hours the man hours police put

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Speaker 2: into solving the so called anti gay attack on Smolette

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Speaker 2: and last but not least, basically framing the two Osandero

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Speaker 2: others to take the fall for a fake attack. Let's

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Speaker 2: take another look at the facts. Matthew Manngino, former District

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Speaker 2: Attorney Lawrence County, former Parole Board member, author executioners told,

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Speaker 2: go ahead.

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Speaker 5: This is a class for felony. In most cases in Illinois,

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Speaker 5: this this would be flat probation, no jail time. You know,

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Speaker 5: because he's a Hollywood name, you know, should we treat

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Speaker 5: him more harshly than we would typically other people who

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Speaker 5: file false reports with the police.

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Speaker 2: Okay, wait, who can you name me one person that

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Speaker 2: followed a false report with police in your jurisdiction that

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Speaker 2: took it to a jury trial and claimed he was

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Speaker 2: the victim of a racial and homophobic hate crime.

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Speaker 5: Name one, Well, I'm sure there have been one.

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Speaker 2: Don't tell me, Yeah they haven't. Who did something like this?

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Speaker 5: Well, I don't know really of anybody who who faked

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Speaker 5: their own assault.

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Speaker 2: Their own hate crime.

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Speaker 5: Wouldn't do that their own hate crime because they don't

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Speaker 5: have anything to gain from it.

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Speaker 2: The worst conjuring Matthew Mangino is the news, the news

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Speaker 2: for a black male, sure to have a news put

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Speaker 2: around on his neck, and then we find out, isn't

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Speaker 2: this right Alexis restaurant? And feel free to correct me

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Speaker 2: if I'm wrong. I'd rather know the truth. Didn't it

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Speaker 2: come out that he took the news off and then

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Speaker 2: put it back on so the cops could get it

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Speaker 2: and their body can footage when they came back. He

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Speaker 2: is screwing around with one of the vilest and most

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Speaker 2: hated symbols in our country. What happened to so many

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Speaker 2: black males? Awful awful history? And he conjures that up

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Speaker 2: like an evil magician and puts it on and takes

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Speaker 2: it off for effect. Yes, hell, yeah, that's thee ought

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Speaker 2: to be in jail. Isn't that what happened? Isn't that

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Speaker 2: what happened.

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Speaker 7: Alexis trescu it is, And in fact, he said that

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Speaker 7: these random attackers put this news on him. The brothers

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Speaker 7: were on video at a store buying the rope. They

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Speaker 7: didn't do this of their own, This wasn't their idea.

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Speaker 7: They did this because he told them what to buy,

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Speaker 7: because this would have made the crime more selection.

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Speaker 2: And Matthew Mangino, I mean a renowned lawyer and author,

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Speaker 2: former district attorney now private lawyer. Matthew Me and Geno,

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Speaker 2: you're telling me that, hey, this happens all the time.

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Speaker 2: They don't go to jail. Bs, This does not happen

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Speaker 2: all the time to prey on the fears of people

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Speaker 2: all across the country, to pray on hatred and injustice

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Speaker 2: and use it for a pr boost to get a

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Speaker 2: raise in your salary. Oh no, no, he needs to

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Speaker 2: be in jail, Ma, Geno.

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Speaker 5: Well, again, you know we're mad at him, were angry

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Speaker 5: at him, But again, is he is he? Is he

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Speaker 5: a threat to the society?

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Speaker 2: Is he?

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Speaker 5: Is he a person who we should be afraid of,

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Speaker 5: who's going to be turned loose on the streets. I mean,

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Speaker 5: you know, if he wasn't a celebrity, we would have

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Speaker 5: heard nothing about this case. You know, the fact that

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Speaker 5: he's a celebrity, the fact that he doesn't matter.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't matter. That's the whole. If a tree falls

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Speaker 2: of the forest, does anybody hear it? Yeah, it can

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Speaker 2: be heard, even if you're not there. It still makes

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Speaker 2: a sound. Whether he's a celebrity or not. He did

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Speaker 2: this thing.

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Speaker 5: Right, And people in similar situations who are convicted of

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Speaker 5: class four felonies in Illinois don't go to jail.

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Speaker 2: But you haven't been able to name another similar situation.

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Speaker 5: Have you another actor who's done something like this?

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Speaker 1: Now?

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Speaker 10: I don't know if.

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Speaker 2: Anyone, anyone, anyone that's done something like this. Prayed on

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Speaker 2: prejudices and hate and a horrible, hateful history of targeting

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Speaker 2: people and the worst conjuring of all the news. I mean,

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Speaker 2: it goes on and on and on. I want to

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Speaker 2: go to Paul Zeike, former police commander, author of Stop

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Speaker 2: Him From Killing Them on Amazon Kindle, Paul Zeike, what

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Speaker 2: do you think?

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Speaker 11: Well?

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Speaker 10: I think you had two dozen detectives that engaged in

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Speaker 10: three thousand hours plus of investigation to bring an offender

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Speaker 10: to justice that did not exist. And the fact that

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Speaker 10: the officers were chasing. Essentially, a ghost is something they're

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Speaker 10: not equipped really, and you could go two careers without

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Speaker 10: finding this exact situation where a a top flight actor

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Speaker 10: or any sort of high profile individual, or anyvictim so

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Speaker 10: to speak, would make up an entire story and have

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Speaker 10: props and have all these other things to make you

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Speaker 10: believe that these terrible things had happened. Furthermore, it also

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Speaker 10: opens the door for an arrest to be made of

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Speaker 10: the wrong people or.

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Speaker 11: People that never were involved. You know, we're so worried

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Speaker 11: about people being in prison. Who have you know, twenty

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Speaker 11: thirty years ago didn't do what they were accused of doing.

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Speaker 11: This exact setup, this exact paradigm, could have created a

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Speaker 11: situation where if they believed him and not these other individuals,

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Speaker 11: the people that he hired to commit these crimes, they

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Speaker 11: could be in prison for the next twenty years. And

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Speaker 11: who's looking at that?

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Speaker 2: Jesse Smollett is finally headed to jail, I think anyway?

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Speaker 2: For what staging a fake hate crime on himself to

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Speaker 2: make more money in a very misled and misdirected pr

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Speaker 2: campaign he launched himself the Empire Star files the appeal

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Speaker 2: in an investigation where Chicago cops conclude Smolette hired the

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Speaker 2: two Osendaro brothers to carry out the crime. He was

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Speaker 2: sentenced to wait for it one hundred and fifty days

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Speaker 2: in jail last year, but because of all of his

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Speaker 2: moaning and groaning and crying and snotting, he actually got

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Speaker 2: out on an appeal bond to walk free until his

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Speaker 2: case is decided. Is there a chance this guy could

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Speaker 2: somehow swing a new trial? You know, Paul Syke as

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Speaker 2: go ahead, I'll circle back to sch go ahead.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, okay, real quick, this this is my advantage, you know.

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Speaker 5: And again you know, I understand that the time that

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Speaker 5: was put into this case, but you had five police

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Speaker 5: officers investigating a false report to the police, there were

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Speaker 5: eight hundred homicides.

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Speaker 2: Oh wait a minute, Wait a minute. You had all

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Speaker 2: these cops investigating what they believed to be a hate

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Speaker 2: crime and a possible attempt to murder even by putting

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Speaker 2: your moose around his neck on a celebrity because he's black,

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Speaker 2: because he's gay. That's what they were investigating. And an

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Speaker 2: old roads led back to Jesse Smollett. Right, they found

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Speaker 2: the purple a right, it was Smollett.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, let's put it in perspective eight hundred homicides in

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Speaker 5: Chicago and you got twenty five police officers investigating this.

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Speaker 2: This No, you are not turning this back around on

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Speaker 2: the cops. They think that the movement are out there. Wait,

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Speaker 2: alexis Terreshak. At some point did he say that the

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Speaker 2: purpse threw bleach on him?

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Speaker 5: He did?

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Speaker 2: Oh, dear Lord in Heaven. I mean, come on, Zike,

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Speaker 2: help me out here. You're Mangino. If you believe that

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Speaker 2: there are purps out there that are throwing bleach on

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Speaker 2: a victim, on beating them, wrapping a noose around their neck,

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Speaker 2: taunting them, yeah, you're gonna look for the purpse. And

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Speaker 2: then the fact that the victims of celebrity making this

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Speaker 2: crime high profile, giving your city a black eye. Yes,

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Speaker 2: the cops are all over a potential hate crime. Because

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Speaker 2: hate doesn't die, that purp will do it again and

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Speaker 2: again and release his hate in another way, the purp

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Speaker 2: had to be stopped. And you've got Mangino trying to

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Speaker 2: turn this around on a cop. So there's that question.

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Speaker 2: But this is what I was going to ask you earlier.

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Speaker 2: It makes me think, what's it all for? Why did

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Speaker 2: I beat my brains out, trying to put bad guys

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Speaker 2: behind bars, every day, working till three and four in

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Speaker 2: the morning some times for this for the part to

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Speaker 2: be let out. How do you think the Ousindara brothers feel.

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Speaker 2: How do you think that gurrs feel, the cops who

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Speaker 2: stand by and see all that work, all that effort

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Speaker 2: for what? What about Zike?

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Speaker 10: Well, here's the thing we talked about those twenty four officers,

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Speaker 10: and you can imagine the emotions they're going through there.

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Speaker 2: I bet they feel defeated.

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Speaker 10: Defeated absolutely, they put all that in for nothing. Any

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Speaker 10: good cop that's worth their weight, and there's a lot

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Speaker 10: of them in this country, by the way, take that

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Speaker 10: as a personal insult that somebody in their city could

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Speaker 10: possibly be the victim of a hate crime and have

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Speaker 10: all these heinous things done to them. Their position is

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Speaker 10: going to be, I'm not going home, I'm not going

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Speaker 10: to bed until I find the people that did this

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Speaker 10: and bring them to justice, not on my watch, and

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Speaker 10: have all that be turned around and be an absolute

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Speaker 10: farce and just sham of the criminal justice system. Those officers,

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Speaker 10: I guarantee you are defeated. How they may even need

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Speaker 10: counseling at the end of that.

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Speaker 2: I mean, when you work that hard. I mean, Alexis Teschut.

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Speaker 2: You have been around me when I've been working on

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Speaker 2: a case. I live it, I breathe it, I ate it,

404
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Speaker 2: I drink it. That's what I think about until it's solved,

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Speaker 2: and that can take days, weeks, months, sometimes longer. And

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Speaker 2: when you finally crack a case, it finally goes to

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Speaker 2: trial and then this, I mean, I agree with Zych.

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Speaker 2: It's just such a defeat for everyone that worked the case.

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Speaker 7: And you know, the police officers, they in the very

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Speaker 7: beginning believed him. They believe Smalllett. They actually were stopping

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Speaker 7: so many people because he had given a description as attackers,

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Speaker 7: so they were questioning everybody in town. They were going

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Speaker 7: to find the perpetrators. Little did they know they were

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Speaker 7: his two friends that he was hanging out with all

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Speaker 7: the time, and he paid to do this. But they

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Speaker 7: were very serious about trying to find the suspect.

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Speaker 2: Don't you know that prosecutor is besides himself. Take a

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Speaker 2: listen to our cut.

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Speaker 12: The four this jury worked so hard and for mister

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Speaker 12: Smallllett to get up in front of them and lie

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Speaker 12: for hours and hours and hours, that really compounded his misconduct,

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Speaker 12: and quite frankly, when I saw that happen in the courtroom,

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Speaker 12: at least for me as a trial lawyer that spent

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Speaker 12: my life in the courtroom, we don't expect defendants to

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Speaker 12: do that. Defendants have a right to go to trial.

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Speaker 12: Defendants have a right to argue that their case has

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Speaker 12: not been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. But defendants do

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Speaker 12: not have the right to go in front of a

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Speaker 12: jury and lie under oath. Mister Smallett would not have

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Speaker 12: lost this case as he did today unless the jury

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Speaker 12: found that he led to them, And so that was

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Speaker 12: something that I was very proud that this jury came

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Speaker 12: to the conclusion that he's guilty, and the fact that

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Speaker 12: he came up with a completely ridiculous story to explain

435
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 12: his misconduct did not apparently have an impact on the

436
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:16,480
Speaker 12: jury's verdict.

437
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 2: Take a listen now to ourka the four A Alpha.

438
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,399
Speaker 12: There are two things that I think stuck with the jury.

439
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 12: Number one, I think my basic argument that it is

440
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:31,560
Speaker 12: ridiculous to think that Smolette left his apartment on the

441
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:34,119
Speaker 12: night of January twenty ninth at two o'clock in the

442
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 12: morning to go buy eggs and that that's his explanation

443
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 12: for why he ended up right at that intersection, right

444
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:42,760
Speaker 12: at two o'clock in the morning that the brother said

445
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,359
Speaker 12: is where he told them the attacks should take place.

446
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:48,119
Speaker 12: So the fact that it actually happened that way, I

447
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 12: think was pretty profound. I also think that sometimes it's

448
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:57,160
Speaker 12: simple things. He actually rigged that rope after that rope

449
00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:57,920
Speaker 12: got put on him.

450
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:01,000
Speaker 2: I showed the picture to the jury. Pictures don't lie.

451
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:05,920
Speaker 12: Those pictures showed that he actually, after he went through

452
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:08,879
Speaker 12: this fake attack, wanted to make it look better, and

453
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:11,360
Speaker 12: he jimmied with the rope to make the noose look

454
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:14,359
Speaker 12: closer to his throat and rustled around because the rope

455
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:16,600
Speaker 12: you saw in the courtroom was nice and neat around

456
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:19,879
Speaker 12: his neck. Because old Austin Daryl didn't have time to

457
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 12: do much with it because a car came and so

458
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:25,440
Speaker 12: he ran away. He left the rope next to his face.

459
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 12: Small lud got up put it around his neck, and

460
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:31,119
Speaker 12: then when it didn't look bad enough, he changed it,

461
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:31,680
Speaker 12: and I think.

462
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:32,639
Speaker 5: That impacted the jury.

463
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 2: I like this terrest check. Is it true that Smolette

464
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:40,840
Speaker 2: refused to eat? It sounds like a child refusing to eat,

465
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 2: having a little tantrum. He wouldn't eat behind bars, and

466
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:47,960
Speaker 2: for Pete's sint, it's the local jail. Anybody ever seen

467
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:50,760
Speaker 2: Andy and Mayberry? For Pete's sake, when Otis would let

468
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 2: himself in and out, it's not like he's in the pen.

469
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 2: He's not in Alcatraz, he's not in mac security. In

470
00:28:57,640 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 2: the hole. For Pete's sake, he wouldn't eat.

471
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:04,480
Speaker 7: So he claimed that he had given up food for lent,

472
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 7: so he was fasting for the entire duration of lent,

473
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 7: the forty days of lent. So he said that he

474
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:17,040
Speaker 7: gave up foods six days before he actually was sentenced

475
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 7: to jail. So he I guess at this point is

476
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:21,720
Speaker 7: now not even for eleven days that it was a

477
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 7: religious thing.

478
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:25,960
Speaker 2: So he was going to starve for forty days. He

479
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 2: was not going to eat for forty days, the forty

480
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 2: days preceding Easter. Do I understand you? Yes, Okay, that's

481
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:35,480
Speaker 2: a lie. There's no way Jesse Smillette was not going

482
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:39,040
Speaker 2: to eat for forty days. That's just that's just not true.

483
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 2: But fine, another lie by Jesse Smilette. And now he's

484
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 2: dragging Easter into it. Did you hear that?

485
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 9: Man?

486
00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 2: Gino he's dragging Easter in.

487
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 5: Well, the only person I know as fast as for

488
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 5: forty days was Jesus.

489
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 2: And just do not do not start on him. Don't

490
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:58,600
Speaker 2: do not. I don't even want to hear him dragged

491
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 2: into this conversation for Peat's sake. But I do agree

492
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 2: that you're right. That's the only person I've ever known

493
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 2: to starve himself for forty days and forty nights. And

494
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 2: although he was greatly tempted, he didn't give in small

495
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 2: atte However, it's still lying through his teeth. So alexis

496
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 2: terrest schuck. He had nothing but water behind bars, correct

497
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 2: the mean streets of the Cook County Local Jail.

498
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 7: Right, it is, But the Cook County Jail is not

499
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 7: a cush jail. It isn't notoriously bad jail. You know

500
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 7: what do you think jail is?

501
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 2: Alexis terrestruck. Where are you joining me from Rodeo drive

502
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 2: this morning?

503
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 7: No, I'm not on Rodeo drive, but I am in

504
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 7: Los Angeles.

505
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:47,080
Speaker 13: But jail is jail.

506
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:49,480
Speaker 7: But the Cook County jail it is bad as well.

507
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 7: It's not a nice one.

508
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 2: Well, it's jail. What do you wanted to be a spot?

509
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 7: Well, I also think that he was getting fairly special treatment.

510
00:30:57,640 --> 00:30:59,240
Speaker 7: But they said that they well.

511
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:03,000
Speaker 2: You're right about that. Didn't he get moved from one

512
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 2: place to the next so he could be what did

513
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:08,120
Speaker 2: he get to the medical ward so he could have

514
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:11,640
Speaker 2: a different surrounding he was in You know what? Take

515
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 2: a listen to hour cut see this is Leah Hope

516
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 2: ABC seven.

517
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 9: Four days into the one hundred and fifty day sentence,

518
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 9: Jesse Smollett remains in protective custody at the Cook County Jail,

519
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 9: and his family remained steadfast in their support of the

520
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 9: former TV star who was convicted for lying to police

521
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:30,720
Speaker 9: about a hate crime hoax.

522
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 2: He's very strong, He's very focused.

523
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,960
Speaker 9: He Smalllett's youngest brother visited him yesterday at the jail,

524
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 9: where Smollett is in a cell by himself and being

525
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 9: monitored in the medical way.

526
00:31:55,040 --> 00:32:00,480
Speaker 2: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Welcome Matt, Guys, remember Molette.

527
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 2: To Chicago police, he was attacked on a dark street

528
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 2: by two masked strangers that put a noose around his

529
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:14,960
Speaker 2: neck signifying a lynching of a black male, pouring chemicals

530
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:20,520
Speaker 2: on him while yelling racist, homophobic slurs. They somehow even

531
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 2: managed to work in support for Donald Trump. Well, that's

532
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:29,280
Speaker 2: quite the kinky dink. The brothers, who actually testified in

533
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 2: court told the jury Smullett hired them to fake the

534
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:38,160
Speaker 2: attack only because he wanted more money and to bolster

535
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 2: boost his celebrity profile. Smollett later said that in the

536
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:49,040
Speaker 2: days before the fake race attack, he and the brothers

537
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:52,520
Speaker 2: were together, but not to rehearse the attack. They were

538
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:57,479
Speaker 2: actually just getting high on pot. Matthew Manngino, former District

539
00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 2: Attorney Lawrence County role board member author executioners, told Matthew

540
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:09,120
Speaker 2: the medical wing is a cushy area. You're not in

541
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:12,720
Speaker 2: general population. There are very few inmates in there. There

542
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:17,160
Speaker 2: nurses walking around, they're they're measuring your hydration and your

543
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 2: pulse and all that. Why was he in the medical wing?

544
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:25,000
Speaker 5: Well, you're right that the medical wing is like a

545
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:29,880
Speaker 5: hospital within a correctional facility. Uh, you know, maybe it's

546
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 5: because he was starving himself. I don't know. You know

547
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 5: that that's curious that he would be in the medical

548
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 5: wing other than his absurd fasting. But again, should he

549
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 5: even be in jail is the question.

550
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 2: I believe that the jury decided that, and you're still

551
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 2: talking about it.

552
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 5: The jury decided he was guilty. The judge decided that

553
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:55,440
Speaker 5: he had to go to jail. And again, if you're

554
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 5: going to look at similar class four felonies in Illinois,

555
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 5: they don't involve jail.

556
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:07,719
Speaker 2: Again again, Matthew Mangino, you keep talking about similar crist

557
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 2: but yet you have been unable to name one crime

558
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:18,480
Speaker 2: that you can specify that is similar to this crime.

559
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:26,280
Speaker 2: The breadth of his hopes on Lady Justice is beyond

560
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:32,160
Speaker 2: compare and still lying through his tea as he SIPs

561
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 2: ice water. Take a listen to our cut e from Fox.

562
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:39,200
Speaker 13: Jesse's Molett going free, at least for now while he

563
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:41,120
Speaker 13: tries to get his sentence overturned.

564
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:43,080
Speaker 2: The appeals court ordered.

565
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:46,840
Speaker 13: Jesse's released during the appeals process. He will first have

566
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:48,720
Speaker 13: to post a bond of one hundred and fifty thousand

567
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:51,520
Speaker 13: dollars before he's let out of Coke County Jail, although

568
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:54,840
Speaker 13: it's unclear when exactly he'll be able to walk free.

569
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:59,400
Speaker 13: Jesse started serving his five months last Thursday, and immediately

570
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:02,560
Speaker 13: after the judge sentenced him, he started shouting that he

571
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 13: was innocent and raising his fists in the air. As

572
00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:08,720
Speaker 13: he was taken out of the court in handcuffs tense

573
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 13: moments inside of the courtroom. In this video, his defense

574
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:15,760
Speaker 13: team and his family members never stopped asking for his release,

575
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 13: claiming that Jesse was in physical harm well behind bars.

576
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:24,320
Speaker 13: They cited racist and homophobic threats that they had received,

577
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:28,360
Speaker 13: and also said Jesse was highly susceptible to contracting COVID

578
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 13: nineteen while in jails.

579
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:38,919
Speaker 2: Really racist and homophobic threats. Again, that second verse same

580
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:42,240
Speaker 2: as the first, alexis terress check. That's what he claimed

581
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 2: the first time. For all I know is Smolette from

582
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:49,439
Speaker 2: the Cook County payphone calling his family. I mean, they're

583
00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:53,000
Speaker 2: tuning up with that again. I mean, if these threats

584
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 2: were real, it would be different. But they've already been

585
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 2: proved to be a lie, which doesn't injustice to every

586
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:02,720
Speaker 2: hate crime victim out there that has been targeted because

587
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:05,799
Speaker 2: they're black, because they're gay, because they're Asian, because they're

588
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 2: a woman, because they're bill on the blank, hate hate

589
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:14,319
Speaker 2: because of who you are, and they're they're praying on

590
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 2: that again.

591
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:20,560
Speaker 7: You know, prinaters that are incarcerated complain all the time

592
00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:23,680
Speaker 7: about how they have so little access to the outside world.

593
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:25,560
Speaker 7: It's very extensive to make a phone call.

594
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:29,360
Speaker 2: Calls are collect number one, but go ahead.

595
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:33,800
Speaker 7: And so the fact that they're saying after five days

596
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:38,920
Speaker 7: that social media Twitter, Instagram is affecting how Jesse is

597
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:42,840
Speaker 7: mister Smollett is being treated behind bars doesn't compute. It

598
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:45,080
Speaker 7: just doesn't make sense that they think people who are

599
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 7: saying things about him on social media would then somehow

600
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:52,680
Speaker 7: affect people behind bars, as if that information has infiltrated,

601
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:56,440
Speaker 7: you know, some sort of scary group behind bars, it's

602
00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 7: going to then target Smallett. It defied logic.

603
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:02,400
Speaker 2: You know, Matthew me and Gino, high profile lawyer is

604
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:05,200
Speaker 2: joining us A former district attorney and Lawrence County now

605
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:11,360
Speaker 2: author Matthew how many times as one of your clients

606
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:17,160
Speaker 2: gotten an appeal bond, which means after you're convicted at trial,

607
00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:20,920
Speaker 2: typically by a jury, the judges, oh, you know what,

608
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:23,279
Speaker 2: Never mind about that conviction thing. You're going to walk

609
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:28,320
Speaker 2: free to an appeals court, for instance, the Illinois Supreme

610
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:32,320
Speaker 2: Court rules on your case, and then after they rule,

611
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:36,160
Speaker 2: maybe you can appeal it on up to the Circuit

612
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:38,520
Speaker 2: Court of Appeals and after that, hey, maybe you can

613
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:40,440
Speaker 2: take it all the way to the US Supreme Court.

614
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:42,319
Speaker 2: You just don't know how far this appeal is going

615
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 2: to go, but the whole time you can stay out

616
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:47,520
Speaker 2: behind bars. I mean, why even have a jury trial?

617
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:52,600
Speaker 5: Well, to answer your question, you know, it's not entirely

618
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:56,479
Speaker 5: unusual to get an appeal bond. How many of you had, Well,

619
00:37:56,520 --> 00:38:01,120
Speaker 5: I'm just let me finish. It's not entire really unusual

620
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 5: to get one from a trial judge who earns the case,

621
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:07,839
Speaker 5: who thinks that maybe you have an appeal that has

622
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:12,000
Speaker 5: some merit to it, based on him having observed the trial.

623
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 5: So you know, he made grant that. It is unusual

624
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 5: to within five days at least in my experience, to

625
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:23,200
Speaker 5: have an appellate court intervene and say this person should

626
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:27,560
Speaker 5: have an appeal bond over the denial of the trial judge.

627
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:31,920
Speaker 5: That's unusual. I can't say that I've ever seen that.

628
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:34,440
Speaker 2: Can I ask you a question? Yeah, how many times

629
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:38,880
Speaker 2: as a prosecutor did you get a conviction on a

630
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:41,880
Speaker 2: case and then that person get out on an appeal bond.

631
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:46,680
Speaker 5: It's rare because I never had.

632
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:49,120
Speaker 2: It happen to me as the prosecutor. Not once did

633
00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:51,600
Speaker 2: one person that I took a trial and there's the

634
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:55,960
Speaker 2: commission get out while they appealed the conviction that never happened,

635
00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:59,800
Speaker 2: and that was ten solid years of inter city Atlanta.

636
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:03,480
Speaker 5: I mean, I don't disagree with you never never, and

637
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:05,920
Speaker 5: you're here, but if you have it, if you have

638
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:06,920
Speaker 5: a you're not answering.

639
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:10,319
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, Matthew, you're not answering. How often did that

640
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:12,920
Speaker 2: ever happen to you? Did it ever happen?

641
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 5: I would say sometimes, maybe in eight years or a judge,

642
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:21,040
Speaker 5: A judge granted and at til bond when in fact

643
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:22,280
Speaker 5: that one of your cases.

644
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:23,520
Speaker 2: I didn't hear the number.

645
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:26,560
Speaker 5: I say a couple you know, as the district attorney,

646
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:30,239
Speaker 5: every case was mine. So I say, a couple of

647
00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:31,080
Speaker 5: times it's happened.

648
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:34,360
Speaker 2: All right, I've never had it happen. Who's jumping in?

649
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:35,080
Speaker 2: Is that Paul's I?

650
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 10: Yeah, Nance, I'd just like to make a quick comment,

651
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:39,279
Speaker 10: and that is, you know, when you look at this

652
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:41,080
Speaker 10: from the flip side, let's just say he would have

653
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:45,239
Speaker 10: been successful. Let's say that that the his plot would

654
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:49,839
Speaker 10: not have been discovered. He essentially would be setting up

655
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:53,880
Speaker 10: one or two or more people to spend you know,

656
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:59,160
Speaker 10: a decade or two behind bars just to promote his career.

657
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:02,160
Speaker 2: You know, you're right, those Sindari brothers could have gone

658
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:06,640
Speaker 2: down for years on end for a hate crime for

659
00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:10,360
Speaker 2: throwting bleach on small at, for beating him up, for

660
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:13,680
Speaker 2: attacking him and then putting a noose around his neck.

661
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:18,640
Speaker 2: Doctor Sherry Schwartz, what exactly is a pathological liar?

662
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:23,360
Speaker 8: Well, this is somebody who I mean to put it

663
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:27,279
Speaker 8: really simply, if their lips are moving, they're lying. That's

664
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:31,120
Speaker 8: how you can think about them, because the lies literally

665
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:34,000
Speaker 8: just come out of their mouths with great deal of ease.

666
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:37,880
Speaker 8: Research on pathological liars shows that, you know, if they're

667
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:42,600
Speaker 8: hooked up to like an EKG right to check their

668
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:46,799
Speaker 8: pulse and things like that, that they lie and they

669
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:49,839
Speaker 8: really don't experience that same kind of physical reaction that

670
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:52,880
Speaker 8: somebody who's telling a lie that doesn't normally lie would,

671
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:57,920
Speaker 8: like anxiety and things like that, heightened arousal. They just

672
00:40:58,080 --> 00:40:59,800
Speaker 8: lie for the sake of lying.

673
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 2: Lie for the sake of lying. Is Jesse Smillant finally

674
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:11,080
Speaker 2: going to jail? Will he ever admit he did anything wrong?

675
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:14,040
Speaker 2: Is this going to be fodder for a made for

676
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:20,480
Speaker 2: TV movie or a book? Oh? Probably, We wait as

677
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:23,359
Speaker 2: just as unfolds. Goodbye friend,