WEBVTT - Messy Conversations: Magatte Wade, Atlas Network's Center for African Prosperity 0:00:05.800 --> 0:00:09.639 Hello, and welcome back to Drill. I'm Amy Westervelt. A 0:00:09.680 --> 0:00:12.879 little bit earlier this season, we ran an episode on 0:00:12.920 --> 0:00:17.160 a global network of think tanks called the Atlas Network. 0:00:18.600 --> 0:00:22.840 We did a print piece as well. A version of 0:00:22.880 --> 0:00:25.800 that piece ran with The New Republic and a couple 0:00:25.800 --> 0:00:29.200 of other outlets, and in that work we looked at 0:00:29.200 --> 0:00:32.480 some of the ideas and tactics that seemed to be 0:00:32.560 --> 0:00:37.440 spreading across the Atlas Network aimed at laying the groundwork 0:00:37.520 --> 0:00:41.400 to criminalize certain types of environmental protest. I had actually 0:00:41.479 --> 0:00:45.000 reached out to Atlas wanting to interview someone about the network, 0:00:45.320 --> 0:00:49.360 and specifically wanting to talk to a woman named Maggott Wade, 0:00:49.520 --> 0:00:53.720 who runs their Center for African Prosperity. I didn't hear 0:00:53.760 --> 0:00:56.680 anything back, and to be honest, I kind of assumed 0:00:56.720 --> 0:00:58.920 that they just didn't want to talk to me because 0:00:59.080 --> 0:01:02.040 Atlas sort of had that reputation. So that was me 0:01:02.240 --> 0:01:05.800 maybe being a little bit lazy. Anyway, after that story 0:01:05.840 --> 0:01:09.240 came out, Wade was pretty upset about it, and she 0:01:09.319 --> 0:01:14.039 took to Twitter and challenged me our reporter Jeff Dambicki, 0:01:14.760 --> 0:01:19.120 a New Republic editor, Molly Taft, to a debate. I 0:01:19.200 --> 0:01:21.320 let her know that actually I had really wanted to 0:01:21.360 --> 0:01:23.480 talk to her for the story and had tried, so 0:01:23.520 --> 0:01:26.039 I would love to schedule a time to talk and 0:01:26.240 --> 0:01:29.720 talk we did. It was definitely a little debatey sometimes, 0:01:30.000 --> 0:01:34.440 but also an interesting window into how certain ideas about 0:01:34.440 --> 0:01:37.680 the climate movement are being shaped. We're going to get 0:01:37.760 --> 0:01:41.959 back to our anti protest series soon, but in the meantime, 0:01:42.040 --> 0:01:45.479 I'm going to be bringing you some bonus episodes featuring 0:01:45.560 --> 0:01:50.480 what I've been calling messy conversations, sometimes with people I 0:01:50.560 --> 0:01:54.560 don't necessarily agree with, sometimes with people I very much do. 0:01:55.400 --> 0:01:58.800 First up, mcgott Wade, who heads up the Center for 0:01:58.880 --> 0:02:03.600 African Prosperity for the ATLAS Network. This week she's at 0:02:03.680 --> 0:02:07.480 a convening for a new group that brings together quite 0:02:07.480 --> 0:02:11.959 a few different ATLAS member think tank folks. It's called 0:02:12.000 --> 0:02:17.960 the Alliance for Responsible Citizenship. It's spearheaded by Jordan Peterson, 0:02:18.960 --> 0:02:22.560 backed by several of the entities that funded the push 0:02:22.720 --> 0:02:27.639 for Brexit, and includes not only folks like Magott and 0:02:28.240 --> 0:02:32.440 Arthur Brooks, the former president of the American Enterprise Institute, 0:02:32.800 --> 0:02:36.920 and the folks leading the State Financial Officers Foundation, a 0:02:36.960 --> 0:02:41.400 group that's funded by a whole batch of Atlas network 0:02:41.440 --> 0:02:46.760 think tanks like the Heartland Institute, the Heritage Foundation, and more, 0:02:47.120 --> 0:02:50.600 but also a whole cast of folks from the climate 0:02:50.760 --> 0:02:57.120 skeptic slash climate denial crowd. You've got GOP candidate Vivic Ramaswami, 0:02:57.840 --> 0:03:00.720 who's been sort of the king of the anti ESG 0:03:01.280 --> 0:03:06.520 or quote unquote woke capital conversations. You've got Michael Schellenberger, 0:03:06.720 --> 0:03:12.760 author of Apocalypse Never. You've got Pure Lombourg, who pushes 0:03:12.760 --> 0:03:15.440 a similar kind of approach to the Schollenberger, this idea 0:03:15.520 --> 0:03:18.440 that sure climate change is happening, but it's not happening 0:03:18.560 --> 0:03:23.480 fast enough to warrant extreme changes. You've got Alex Epstein, 0:03:23.720 --> 0:03:26.880 the guy who authored the quote unquote Moral Case for 0:03:27.040 --> 0:03:32.040 fossil fuels. This group, the Alliance for Responsible Citizenship or ARC, 0:03:32.800 --> 0:03:34.639 was put on my radar by a tip a few 0:03:34.680 --> 0:03:38.040 months ago. I shared that with Dismog, who's written some 0:03:38.200 --> 0:03:41.560 really great and helpful profiles of both the organization and 0:03:41.600 --> 0:03:44.520 some of the members in it, which I'll link to 0:03:44.680 --> 0:03:45.720 in the show notes. 0:03:45.960 --> 0:03:47.520 It's been interesting to see. 0:03:47.280 --> 0:03:50.960 How they've evolved, how they've added different people, and what 0:03:51.080 --> 0:03:55.360 sorts of things are getting discussed. What's particularly interesting to 0:03:55.400 --> 0:03:57.960 me about ARC is that it's doing this thing that 0:03:58.120 --> 0:04:01.720 happens a lot on the and not so much on 0:04:01.760 --> 0:04:06.040 the left, which is bringing together lots of sort of 0:04:06.160 --> 0:04:10.640 kauzleb under one tent. So you've got the anti climate people, 0:04:11.120 --> 0:04:15.080 you've got the anti feminist people, you've got the anti 0:04:15.160 --> 0:04:20.640 trans people. They're all meeting together to discuss the supposed 0:04:20.960 --> 0:04:24.240 end of Western civilization as we know it. They're all 0:04:24.240 --> 0:04:27.720 meeting together this week in London. So I thought it 0:04:27.760 --> 0:04:30.680 would be a good time to bring you this conversation. 0:04:30.960 --> 0:04:33.520 I hope you enjoy it, and please get in touch 0:04:33.600 --> 0:04:36.880 with all the things you would have said in this conversation. 0:04:37.600 --> 0:04:40.240 Knowing exactly what to say in the moment is not 0:04:40.440 --> 0:04:43.760 always my strong suit, which you'll see here, because I 0:04:43.760 --> 0:04:46.159 definitely took the liberty of cutting in to say some 0:04:46.279 --> 0:04:49.920 things I wish I had thought of at the time. Anyhow, 0:04:50.000 --> 0:04:54.360 all feedback and complaints welcome. It might even turn into 0:04:54.360 --> 0:04:55.920 another messy conversation. 0:04:56.960 --> 0:05:15.320 Enjoy Hello, Hi, my god, can you hear me? 0:05:16.240 --> 0:05:17.279 Yes, I can hear you. 0:05:17.760 --> 0:05:20.760 Awesome. I'm going to turn my video on to say hi, 0:05:20.800 --> 0:05:22.839 but then I might turn it off just because I 0:05:23.360 --> 0:05:27.280 live in a place with pretty spotty WiFi, no problem, 0:05:27.440 --> 0:05:29.840 so you can see I'm a person. Hello. 0:05:30.120 --> 0:05:30.280 Hi. 0:05:33.480 --> 0:05:36.839 Oh yeah, so first of all for being here, you 0:05:36.880 --> 0:05:37.479 appreciate that. 0:05:38.080 --> 0:05:38.279 Yeah. 0:05:38.360 --> 0:05:40.680 So any I think first I'm going to start just 0:05:40.720 --> 0:05:42.640 for the people who are going to be listening to this. 0:05:42.800 --> 0:05:46.200 And it might have been how we got here. Maybe 0:05:46.200 --> 0:05:48.719 I'm just gonna give everybody a background. So I think 0:05:48.760 --> 0:05:51.599 it was not Friday of last week, but the Friday 0:05:51.600 --> 0:05:54.640 of the previous week. I think it was. I got 0:05:54.640 --> 0:05:57.520 a note from my team members over at Atlas and 0:05:57.600 --> 0:05:59.880 they said, hey, mygadvis this article that came out on 0:05:59.920 --> 0:06:02.760 the New Republic and see I'm really here. The title 0:06:03.839 --> 0:06:07.680 it was called me to the Shadowy Global Network villain 0:06:07.800 --> 0:06:12.159 fying climate protesters, And so the whole thing was pretty 0:06:12.200 --> 0:06:15.120 much what I pulled a head piece and on me. 0:06:15.560 --> 0:06:17.880 You give me a paragraph on there, and I'm gonna 0:06:17.880 --> 0:06:21.480 ready for people. And it says Magat Wade, who heads 0:06:21.600 --> 0:06:25.800 an internal Atlas project called the Center for African Prosperity, 0:06:26.360 --> 0:06:29.640 frequently cites the Soto as an inspiration for her take 0:06:29.640 --> 0:06:33.000 on Africa and climate change in multiple up ads over 0:06:33.000 --> 0:06:35.200 the past few years, and in an interview of this 0:06:35.360 --> 0:06:38.240 year with Canadian professor and the right wing figure had 0:06:38.320 --> 0:06:41.880 Jordan Petersen. Wade, who was born in Senegal but moved 0:06:41.880 --> 0:06:46.279 to Germany when she was seven, describes climate activists as 0:06:46.279 --> 0:06:50.680 a new colonialist, arguing that climate action will keep Africans 0:06:50.760 --> 0:06:54.880 poor and deprive them of access to energy. Wad often 0:06:54.920 --> 0:06:57.680 depicts those who would deny the continent its current fossil 0:06:57.760 --> 0:07:01.880 fo goom as out of touch, and regularly claims that 0:07:02.000 --> 0:07:06.159 climate action will kill a billion Africans, all while refusing 0:07:06.200 --> 0:07:09.160 to engage with the fact that African climate activists are 0:07:09.200 --> 0:07:13.080 being arrested at an alarming rate. So that's the piece 0:07:13.120 --> 0:07:14.080 that was written about me. 0:07:15.240 --> 0:07:18.920 Well, so two things. One, I would clarify that the 0:07:18.960 --> 0:07:22.000 piece was about you. As you said, there was you know, 0:07:22.360 --> 0:07:25.080 one paragraph in a four thousand word piece, which was 0:07:25.120 --> 0:07:27.680 not meant to give you short shrift. It's just there's like, 0:07:28.600 --> 0:07:31.800 you know, nearly six hundred at Lists network think tanks 0:07:31.800 --> 0:07:33.840 to get to and the thing that we were looking 0:07:33.880 --> 0:07:38.560 at was how ideas spread within and throughout the Atlas network, 0:07:39.040 --> 0:07:44.360 not you know, any particular think tanks work. But in 0:07:44.440 --> 0:07:48.200 saying that also worth noting, actually the original piece is 0:07:48.280 --> 0:07:51.000 more like six thousand words and includes a lot more 0:07:51.120 --> 0:07:55.840 on your work and trying to look at different economic 0:07:56.160 --> 0:07:58.680 studies and things like that, which is on our site 0:07:58.760 --> 0:08:02.640 at drill Don Media, but New Republic trimmed out quite 0:08:02.680 --> 0:08:04.960 a bit of the story, so I'm happy to send 0:08:04.960 --> 0:08:08.920 you a link to that as well. And yeah, I 0:08:09.000 --> 0:08:11.440 have actually a bunch of questions that I would love 0:08:12.240 --> 0:08:14.960 to ask you about your work. And I submitted a 0:08:15.000 --> 0:08:18.200 contact request through the Atlas network a couple of times 0:08:18.280 --> 0:08:20.920 and didn't get anything back. But I was looking through 0:08:21.040 --> 0:08:24.240 my in box this morning, and you speak typically to me, 0:08:25.200 --> 0:08:28.560 to you and also to check various things with the 0:08:28.600 --> 0:08:31.480 sort of Atleas network at quarters as well. But I 0:08:31.600 --> 0:08:34.040 just saw in my inbox this morning that I got 0:08:34.320 --> 0:08:36.440 bounced replies to that. 0:08:36.760 --> 0:08:38.480 Yeah, give me when I'm trying to reach out to 0:08:38.480 --> 0:08:40.840 someone and then not getting back to me. I but 0:08:40.960 --> 0:08:42.800 you when I first move into check do I even 0:08:42.800 --> 0:08:45.800 have to write emath? But yeah, okay, it. 0:08:45.760 --> 0:08:48.600 Was like in my you know, went to my proportions folder. 0:08:48.679 --> 0:08:53.000 I agree, like I would have much preferred to speak 0:08:53.000 --> 0:08:55.240 to you before the piece came out, and also like 0:08:55.320 --> 0:08:58.520 not just for that piece, but I find this area 0:08:59.240 --> 0:09:04.040 really interesting looking at the idea of how to address 0:09:04.120 --> 0:09:07.360 energy poverty and climate change at the same time, how 0:09:07.400 --> 0:09:10.760 to do that in an equitable way. All of those 0:09:10.800 --> 0:09:14.760 things are big questions that I frankly agree with a 0:09:14.800 --> 0:09:17.920 lot of your take on the failures of the climate 0:09:18.040 --> 0:09:21.200 movement to do that. So I actually think you might 0:09:21.200 --> 0:09:25.360 be surprised at how much I agree with someone you say. 0:09:25.440 --> 0:09:27.280 I am very happy to hear, but I agree with 0:09:27.600 --> 0:09:30.000 my takes, and it will be good to compare notes 0:09:30.000 --> 0:09:31.440 and within a PI pare notes. So first of all, 0:09:31.480 --> 0:09:36.120 it's good. But we basically settled this incident about you 0:09:36.200 --> 0:09:38.640 having reached out to me, because when someone would starting 0:09:38.640 --> 0:09:41.000 to me, I talked to them. So I'm glad we 0:09:41.080 --> 0:09:44.000 clorified that. But I nevert news from you. But you 0:09:44.000 --> 0:09:46.720 wanted to speak to me, So that's number one. And 0:09:46.760 --> 0:09:49.439 then I'm very glad to hear that you share some 0:09:49.520 --> 0:09:52.400 of my views. And when you're talking about religiships between 0:09:52.440 --> 0:09:55.959 climate change and Africa and all of that at the links, 0:09:56.320 --> 0:10:00.240 I really wish that this particle had gotten into it. Yeah, 0:10:00.240 --> 0:10:02.720 because I'm going to tell you where I'm coming from. 0:10:02.760 --> 0:10:05.240 So when I go back and I read this piece, 0:10:05.720 --> 0:10:08.040 mcgat way, your head in an international Atlas project, so 0:10:08.120 --> 0:10:12.760 that's fine. Frequently cites the Soto as an inspiration. The 0:10:12.800 --> 0:10:17.640 inspiration I cite is always, for the most part, George A. 0:10:18.520 --> 0:10:22.680 Ganaghan economist, who really has put his finger as to 0:10:22.720 --> 0:10:26.320 why thereas in Africa, despite its riches and the riches 0:10:26.360 --> 0:10:30.559 of Africa, are its people, are it's land despite all 0:10:30.600 --> 0:10:32.640 of that being rich in all of that, we still 0:10:32.760 --> 0:10:39.120 to be stayed, remain sadly in such a wrong way, 0:10:39.280 --> 0:10:41.920 still the most poor continent in this world. And I'm 0:10:41.920 --> 0:10:44.120 supposed to be bad as an African, and I'm not 0:10:44.559 --> 0:10:47.200 so when you say that I frequently cites you or 0:10:47.400 --> 0:10:50.080 the other three people, because by the way, I manad 0:10:50.080 --> 0:10:51.800 you for your courage to come here and speak with me, 0:10:51.880 --> 0:10:53.960 because I would have liked to have a courtesy from 0:10:54.000 --> 0:10:56.199 the other three people who have been involved in this piece. 0:10:56.360 --> 0:11:01.280 But anyway, so whoever here did there investigation and says 0:11:01.320 --> 0:11:03.920 that I frequently cited Dsto I would like so big 0:11:03.960 --> 0:11:06.559 to put in my face when I cite this, usually 0:11:06.679 --> 0:11:09.760 Georgia or who is who I cite, and a few 0:11:09.760 --> 0:11:12.600 times I cite the Soto, whom I also have a 0:11:12.720 --> 0:11:15.280 lot of respect for. Has to do for I have 0:11:15.360 --> 0:11:19.559 to do with his work related to the maining cause 0:11:19.600 --> 0:11:22.280 as to why my continent is poor because what Hernando 0:11:22.320 --> 0:11:24.439 de Soto did for those who don't know her none 0:11:24.480 --> 0:11:27.160 of the Soto is a Parisian economist and what he 0:11:27.280 --> 0:11:30.920 has done, him too, like me, has been wondering why 0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:33.720 are people poor? Because his negative pole is a poorer 0:11:33.840 --> 0:11:36.040 nation as well, and he said I'm going ready to 0:11:36.080 --> 0:11:39.480 find out what's going on and him a long. People 0:11:39.600 --> 0:11:42.120 like Hyak because I saw you citing Hyak. You see 0:11:42.120 --> 0:11:44.360 these things is setting a lot of great people, but 0:11:44.559 --> 0:11:48.080 really not even understanding why the rest of the world 0:11:48.120 --> 0:11:51.480 respects these people. I don't respect Hyak because supposedly he 0:11:51.520 --> 0:11:55.199 claims that all the ills of society are caused by socialism. 0:11:55.240 --> 0:11:57.600 As you put in the piece, I really don't like 0:11:58.080 --> 0:12:01.480 socialism the philosophy of what socialism and not what the 0:12:01.520 --> 0:12:03.760 young people today think what socialism is. And that might 0:12:03.760 --> 0:12:06.360 be a different conversation for a different time, like when 0:12:06.400 --> 0:12:09.280 you are Hied. The reason why people like me really 0:12:09.320 --> 0:12:13.960 appreciate Hyad is because of how Hyat really is one 0:12:14.040 --> 0:12:15.800 of the few and I would say probably one of 0:12:15.800 --> 0:12:20.240 the first economists whoever started looking in the direction of 0:12:20.240 --> 0:12:24.600 the entrepreneurs as the solution and as the main creators 0:12:24.600 --> 0:12:27.680 of prosperity. All the other economists are out there doing 0:12:27.720 --> 0:12:31.480 some math, model calculations, all types of things that are 0:12:31.480 --> 0:12:34.120 completely removed from the rest of the world. And multiport 0:12:34.960 --> 0:12:37.600 very important to tail. The reason why some of us 0:12:37.640 --> 0:12:41.439 are really someone like me enjoys Hyak, and I think 0:12:41.520 --> 0:12:45.400 he has contributed a lot to the field of economics 0:12:45.559 --> 0:12:49.000 is because of the precise insight but he had about 0:12:49.040 --> 0:12:52.280 the entrepreneur. And so going back to the Soto, Hyak 0:12:52.800 --> 0:12:55.559 has seen that the entrepreneurs have a role to play 0:12:56.080 --> 0:13:01.480 in fighting poverty, not NGOs, and that's another thing. So, yeah, 0:13:01.840 --> 0:13:04.439 you know what the solo did is it an experiment. 0:13:05.000 --> 0:13:07.800 He established himself in a little bit of an artskirts 0:13:07.840 --> 0:13:11.040 of leading a proof and he tried to start a 0:13:11.120 --> 0:13:14.560 little business, a little business where they were sewing feelings 0:13:14.559 --> 0:13:19.040 like really moment pop. He was thinking when happened to 0:13:19.320 --> 0:13:21.480 people like my gad, But because I have a small 0:13:21.640 --> 0:13:25.320 medium sized enterprise in Africa, how does it work for 0:13:25.400 --> 0:13:27.480 us when we're trying to build a business. What's going on? 0:13:27.520 --> 0:13:30.640 What's happening to us? And so he positioned himself as 0:13:30.640 --> 0:13:33.080 a noble body. And then he went through the process 0:13:33.280 --> 0:13:37.240 to legally register the business. He found that it took forever, 0:13:37.360 --> 0:13:39.720 we're talking here, almost a two thirds of the year. 0:13:40.360 --> 0:13:43.520 The amount of money it cost in fees, it was 0:13:43.640 --> 0:13:47.000 pretty much close to somebody's salary. So he's found that 0:13:47.120 --> 0:13:50.760 it was impossible for people like that to start a business. Impossible. 0:13:50.960 --> 0:13:52.679 And so he went on to write this book called 0:13:52.679 --> 0:13:55.800 The Mystery of Capital and explaining all of that. And 0:13:55.840 --> 0:13:58.000 so the times when you would hear someone like me 0:13:58.400 --> 0:14:01.840 sighting the Sodo, it has to do with that, not 0:14:02.400 --> 0:14:05.160 what you're saying here and what your piece is saying 0:14:05.160 --> 0:14:07.480 about the Soto. It was trying to make the Sodo 0:14:07.559 --> 0:14:10.400 look very bad here, I'm going to find him. Where 0:14:10.440 --> 0:14:13.559 is the Sodo when you're saying, but de Sodo basically 0:14:14.440 --> 0:14:17.800 went and he told the people in the Amazon forest. 0:14:17.840 --> 0:14:21.640 I'm just you know, summarizing when you say that. 0:14:21.800 --> 0:14:24.920 He went there and he told the indigenous people. You know, 0:14:25.440 --> 0:14:28.160 if we give you a piece of the action, it's 0:14:28.200 --> 0:14:32.200 a way to muzzle them up. And I'm just like saying, Amy, 0:14:32.280 --> 0:14:35.800 have you spent time in African nations and which ones 0:14:35.800 --> 0:14:36.280 if you have? 0:14:37.640 --> 0:14:40.640 I have not spent much time in Africa. I've spent 0:14:40.720 --> 0:14:43.040 a lot of time in Latin America and I lived 0:14:43.160 --> 0:14:46.000 in Latin America, so I'm very familiar with how things 0:14:46.040 --> 0:14:50.240 work in the soda. And Okay, can I just say 0:14:50.400 --> 0:14:53.160 speak now, because I you know, you've said a lot 0:14:53.200 --> 0:14:55.640 of things. It'd be good to respond to you. So 0:14:56.080 --> 0:14:59.200 I don't think there's anything in there that says, you know, 0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:02.440 this terrible man de Soto. It just says what he's 0:15:02.560 --> 0:15:05.680 argued for, which is not inaccurate. It is true that 0:15:05.840 --> 0:15:09.200 what he has argued for is for property rights and 0:15:09.240 --> 0:15:11.320 a profit share for Indigenous. 0:15:10.840 --> 0:15:13.120 People, and what's wrong with that and what's wrong with side? 0:15:13.280 --> 0:15:14.800 I don't know anything wrong with that. 0:15:15.240 --> 0:15:16.760 It's fine here. 0:15:17.560 --> 0:15:20.600 I would appreciate, yeah, being able to finish my sentence. 0:15:20.680 --> 0:15:23.720 Thank you. So he says that, you know, he argues 0:15:23.760 --> 0:15:28.040 that's the fix for indigenous protests, and in terms of 0:15:28.080 --> 0:15:31.560 it being a strategy to shut down protest, that's very 0:15:31.560 --> 0:15:34.960 explicitly laid out on the ILD website. They have a 0:15:34.960 --> 0:15:38.720 whole site that's called that. I think it's the Avatar 0:15:38.920 --> 0:15:43.560 miss theory or something along those lines, and it very 0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:47.960 explicitly says, you know, for people that are concerned about 0:15:47.960 --> 0:15:53.040 the impact that indigenous protest is having on business and development. 0:15:53.920 --> 0:15:56.960 We believe that this is the solve for that and 0:15:57.600 --> 0:15:59.320 kind of lays out how. 0:15:59.080 --> 0:15:59.560 To do it. 0:15:59.640 --> 0:16:01.720 So all we were trying to show in the piece 0:16:01.840 --> 0:16:04.720 was how this idea kind of starts with de Soto 0:16:04.960 --> 0:16:08.640 and spreads to multiple other atlas think tanks, which I 0:16:08.680 --> 0:16:11.680 don't think is inaccurate. You know, it is fairly easy 0:16:11.720 --> 0:16:14.560 to follow, and whether or not that's a good or 0:16:14.560 --> 0:16:18.600 bad thing is not something that I or I think 0:16:18.640 --> 0:16:21.160 any of my colleagues ever say. In the piece, it's like, look, 0:16:21.240 --> 0:16:26.560 this is happening. It's not very well publicized that it's happening, 0:16:26.880 --> 0:16:28.080 and it's a strategy. 0:16:29.000 --> 0:16:32.240 A mean but title a few piece says it all. 0:16:33.080 --> 0:16:38.480 But this shadowy global network will deifying climate protesters. And 0:16:39.320 --> 0:16:42.360 this is the long piece. So I will really recommend 0:16:42.400 --> 0:16:44.680 to everybody to go back and read it. But the 0:16:44.800 --> 0:16:49.480 way this paragraph, anybody who would read this paragraph in 0:16:50.000 --> 0:16:52.280 the context also of the rest of the piece, and 0:16:52.400 --> 0:16:54.880 also the way this paragraph was written, you're making a 0:16:54.920 --> 0:16:57.760 commentary here, And with that, I'm going to move on, 0:16:57.800 --> 0:16:59.760 because there's a reason why I really wanted to have 0:16:59.880 --> 0:17:02.680 you on here. So the website, So I will ask 0:17:02.720 --> 0:17:04.640 people to go out and read this piece and then 0:17:04.760 --> 0:17:08.000 you let me know your opinion. But this whole idea 0:17:08.000 --> 0:17:11.520 of a DeSoto is an anti climate person, I think 0:17:11.680 --> 0:17:14.640 that's totally misguided. But I digress. 0:17:14.760 --> 0:17:18.440 So next, I think that's actually that's interesting. So how 0:17:18.480 --> 0:17:22.120 did you kind of frame Desoto's approach on on time action. 0:17:22.520 --> 0:17:24.280 So the bigger talk I want to have is bet 0:17:24.440 --> 0:17:27.520 is bigger, and it's bigger and better than de Soto. So, okay, 0:17:27.960 --> 0:17:29.760 if you hear me Olgible here exactly where it is 0:17:29.760 --> 0:17:31.160 that I'm going with all of us so far. 0:17:31.359 --> 0:17:43.320 Yeah, okay, So I'm just going to jump in here 0:17:43.359 --> 0:17:46.440 for a minute to remind folks of why we were 0:17:46.560 --> 0:17:49.800 touching on DeSoto in both the written piece and the 0:17:49.840 --> 0:17:54.520 podcast episode about Atlas. It's because he really seems to 0:17:54.560 --> 0:17:58.359 be the person who began advocating pretty early on for 0:17:58.480 --> 0:18:02.200 a strategy that would later be called redwashing, and it's 0:18:02.200 --> 0:18:05.320 a strategy that we see other ATLAS think tanks, particularly 0:18:05.359 --> 0:18:08.640 the American Enterprise Institute in the US and the McDonald 0:18:08.720 --> 0:18:13.520 Laurier Institute in Canada, starting to deploy over the years, 0:18:13.800 --> 0:18:17.240 often using the same rhetoric and arguments as de Soto. 0:18:17.840 --> 0:18:21.080 Here's a snippet from our episode on Atlas, just to 0:18:21.200 --> 0:18:32.920 jog your memory. One of the very first think tanks 0:18:33.000 --> 0:18:37.560 created by this newly formed Atlas Network was the Institute 0:18:37.600 --> 0:18:41.199 for Liberty and Democracy in Peru. It was started the 0:18:41.240 --> 0:18:44.120 same year the Atlas Network started, in nineteen eighty one, 0:18:44.280 --> 0:18:48.760 and its founder was a well known economist. De DeSoto 0:18:48.880 --> 0:18:52.120 came up with a theory that wound up reverberating throughout 0:18:52.160 --> 0:18:54.040 the Atlas Network universe. 0:18:54.359 --> 0:18:55.400 It's a really good. 0:18:55.240 --> 0:18:58.240 Example of just how much these think tanks talk to 0:18:58.280 --> 0:19:04.800 each other and how ideas spread. Masna Nusavata here he 0:19:04.920 --> 0:19:08.520 is giving a TED talk in twenty eleven explaining his 0:19:08.600 --> 0:19:13.240 strategy for dealing with indigenous environmental activism. 0:19:12.840 --> 0:19:29.480 Well internationalists I savings Inna No Usa FIST. 0:19:30.520 --> 0:19:32.440 He says, part of the problem is they don't have 0:19:32.680 --> 0:19:36.920 titles to property. And if you ask why, certain international 0:19:37.040 --> 0:19:40.000 organizations and environmental groups will say, well, you know, indigenous 0:19:40.000 --> 0:19:43.240 people don't want to be landowners. They wander around the forest. 0:19:44.359 --> 0:19:47.480 But when he went there with his colleagues, he saw 0:19:47.600 --> 0:19:52.240 immense poverty. Desta started to think about this whole situation 0:19:52.400 --> 0:19:55.960 a lot more because of a bloody standoff between indigenous 0:19:56.040 --> 0:19:58.560 land defenders and police in Peru. 0:20:00.160 --> 0:20:02.840 Dozens of people are estimated to have been killed in 0:20:02.880 --> 0:20:06.600 clashes between police and indigenous activists protesting oil and mining 0:20:06.680 --> 0:20:10.320 projects in the northern Peruvian Amazonian province of Bagua. 0:20:10.920 --> 0:20:14.920 Indigenous leaders were protesting the encroachment on their land by 0:20:15.160 --> 0:20:20.080 various interests, including timber mining and oil and gas. 0:20:21.320 --> 0:20:25.240 I Witness accounts indicate the police fired live ammunition and 0:20:25.359 --> 0:20:29.280 tear gas into the crowd. Alberto Pizango, the leader of 0:20:29.320 --> 0:20:33.560 the national indigenous organization, the Peruvian Jungle Into Ethnic Development 0:20:33.640 --> 0:20:38.160 Association or EDISSEP, accused the government of President Alan Garcia 0:20:38.440 --> 0:20:41.560 of ordering the quote genocide of the indigenous communities. 0:20:47.520 --> 0:20:52.200 Yokiro, our brothers are cornered. I want to put the 0:20:52.280 --> 0:20:53.920 responsibility on the government. 0:20:54.680 --> 0:20:58.480 We are going to put the responsibility on Alan Garcia's. 0:20:57.920 --> 0:21:03.600 Government, the Alan Garcia for ordering. 0:21:03.760 --> 0:21:07.359 As Jena said, DeSoto argues that the solution to all 0:21:07.520 --> 0:21:11.440 this is just to cut indigenous groups in on the profits, 0:21:24.160 --> 0:21:27.720 to give them property rights and a share of resource 0:21:27.800 --> 0:21:32.040 and mineral rights, so that they will stop protesting for 0:21:32.200 --> 0:21:36.879 control over their land. This idea shows up again in 0:21:37.119 --> 0:21:41.560 Canada a couple of years later, when the McDonald Laurier Institute, 0:21:41.640 --> 0:21:44.920 another Atlas Network think tank and a partner of the 0:21:45.040 --> 0:21:49.160 Fraser Institute, starts to put out a bunch of papers 0:21:49.320 --> 0:21:53.360 in the week of Indigenous led protests. There, go back 0:21:53.400 --> 0:21:55.560 and listen to the rest of that episode if you 0:21:55.760 --> 0:21:58.240 haven't heard it yet. We're going to take a quick 0:21:58.320 --> 0:22:01.080 freak here and get back to my conversation with the 0:22:01.160 --> 0:22:03.719 Godwave and stay with us. 0:22:22.400 --> 0:22:25.720 So earlier when we started, you said that you don't 0:22:25.840 --> 0:22:28.080 actually disagree with a lot of things that I say 0:22:28.119 --> 0:22:30.840 about the climate. For anybody that knows a little bit 0:22:30.880 --> 0:22:33.920 of my work on all of this, my whole thing, 0:22:34.160 --> 0:22:38.040 my full purpose in this world. The hill I will 0:22:38.200 --> 0:22:44.440 die on is prosperity for Africans and I want that 0:22:44.720 --> 0:22:49.960 in my left mm hmm. And for prosperity to be built. 0:22:50.040 --> 0:22:53.160 There is only one way only prosperity can be built. 0:22:54.160 --> 0:22:58.440 Prosperity is built by entrepreneurs. Entrepreneurs need what we call 0:22:58.520 --> 0:23:02.560 the tool kit on the endrepreneurs in there, primarily the 0:23:02.600 --> 0:23:05.159 way you sum up everything that they need. This concept 0:23:05.240 --> 0:23:09.120 of floor of law, clear and transferable property right, all 0:23:09.160 --> 0:23:11.840 of them is very important for the entrepreneur to be 0:23:11.920 --> 0:23:15.240 able to enterprise economies is also call it economic freedom. 0:23:15.480 --> 0:23:17.040 You have the best way to call it is just 0:23:17.720 --> 0:23:21.880 is an individual, especially if you're a nobody individual somewhere, 0:23:22.520 --> 0:23:26.840 can you or not start and run a business easily? 0:23:27.320 --> 0:23:29.879 And when it comes to that, you have multiple you know, 0:23:30.119 --> 0:23:34.399 economic indexes that measure that very simple, you know situations. 0:23:34.800 --> 0:23:37.840 And one of them was Doing Business of the Doing 0:23:37.960 --> 0:23:40.200 Business Index of the World Bank. And then you have 0:23:40.240 --> 0:23:43.440 another one of the Economic Freedom Index of Friger Institute. 0:23:43.760 --> 0:23:46.399 Another guy that you guys make out to sound like 0:23:47.000 --> 0:23:50.240 these conspirationists out there, you know, trying to describe the 0:23:50.320 --> 0:23:53.960 world with the right way ideas. So there again these 0:23:54.000 --> 0:23:56.880 people that you demonize, this this seems to demonize people 0:23:57.000 --> 0:23:59.919 like me, actually happen to love. I love the Friger 0:24:00.040 --> 0:24:04.440 Institute insofar as they focus on economic freedom and really 0:24:04.560 --> 0:24:07.000 pointing there too, because when it comes to economic freedom, 0:24:07.080 --> 0:24:10.159 how easy or hard it is for anyone anywhere in 0:24:10.240 --> 0:24:13.200 the world to start and run a business. It turns out, 0:24:13.400 --> 0:24:16.320 but the index is showing exactly when I, as a 0:24:16.359 --> 0:24:19.920 business entrepreneur doing business both in Africa and in the US, 0:24:20.160 --> 0:24:21.680 I have seen At first, I thought it was just 0:24:21.720 --> 0:24:24.000 an anecdote. At first, I thought, oh, you know, it 0:24:24.119 --> 0:24:26.560 is normal. We're poor, so it's hard to do business 0:24:26.640 --> 0:24:29.080