Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome back to Drill. I'm Amy Westervelt. A
Speaker 1: little bit earlier this season, we ran an episode on
Speaker 1: a global network of think tanks called the Atlas Network.
Speaker 1: We did a print piece as well. A version of
Speaker 1: that piece ran with The New Republic and a couple
Speaker 1: of other outlets, and in that work we looked at
Speaker 1: some of the ideas and tactics that seemed to be
Speaker 1: spreading across the Atlas Network aimed at laying the groundwork
Speaker 1: to criminalize certain types of environmental protest. I had actually
Speaker 1: reached out to Atlas wanting to interview someone about the network,
Speaker 1: and specifically wanting to talk to a woman named Maggott Wade,
Speaker 1: who runs their Center for African Prosperity. I didn't hear
Speaker 1: anything back, and to be honest, I kind of assumed
Speaker 1: that they just didn't want to talk to me because
Speaker 1: Atlas sort of had that reputation. So that was me
Speaker 1: maybe being a little bit lazy. Anyway, after that story
Speaker 1: came out, Wade was pretty upset about it, and she
Speaker 1: took to Twitter and challenged me our reporter Jeff Dambicki,
Speaker 1: a New Republic editor, Molly Taft, to a debate. I
Speaker 1: let her know that actually I had really wanted to
Speaker 1: talk to her for the story and had tried, so
Speaker 1: I would love to schedule a time to talk and
Speaker 1: talk we did. It was definitely a little debatey sometimes,
Speaker 1: but also an interesting window into how certain ideas about
Speaker 1: the climate movement are being shaped. We're going to get
Speaker 1: back to our anti protest series soon, but in the meantime,
Speaker 1: I'm going to be bringing you some bonus episodes featuring
Speaker 1: what I've been calling messy conversations, sometimes with people I
Speaker 1: don't necessarily agree with, sometimes with people I very much do.
Speaker 1: First up, mcgott Wade, who heads up the Center for
Speaker 1: African Prosperity for the ATLAS Network. This week she's at
Speaker 1: a convening for a new group that brings together quite
Speaker 1: a few different ATLAS member think tank folks. It's called
Speaker 1: the Alliance for Responsible Citizenship. It's spearheaded by Jordan Peterson,
Speaker 1: backed by several of the entities that funded the push
Speaker 1: for Brexit, and includes not only folks like Magott and
Speaker 1: Arthur Brooks, the former president of the American Enterprise Institute,
Speaker 1: and the folks leading the State Financial Officers Foundation, a
Speaker 1: group that's funded by a whole batch of Atlas network
Speaker 1: think tanks like the Heartland Institute, the Heritage Foundation, and more,
Speaker 1: but also a whole cast of folks from the climate
Speaker 1: skeptic slash climate denial crowd. You've got GOP candidate Vivic Ramaswami,
Speaker 1: who's been sort of the king of the anti ESG
Speaker 1: or quote unquote woke capital conversations. You've got Michael Schellenberger,
Speaker 1: author of Apocalypse Never. You've got Pure Lombourg, who pushes
Speaker 1: a similar kind of approach to the Schollenberger, this idea
Speaker 1: that sure climate change is happening, but it's not happening
Speaker 1: fast enough to warrant extreme changes. You've got Alex Epstein,
Speaker 1: the guy who authored the quote unquote Moral Case for
Speaker 1: fossil fuels. This group, the Alliance for Responsible Citizenship or ARC,
Speaker 1: was put on my radar by a tip a few
Speaker 1: months ago. I shared that with Dismog, who's written some
Speaker 1: really great and helpful profiles of both the organization and
Speaker 1: some of the members in it, which I'll link to
Speaker 1: in the show notes.
Speaker 2: It's been interesting to see.
Speaker 1: How they've evolved, how they've added different people, and what
Speaker 1: sorts of things are getting discussed. What's particularly interesting to
Speaker 1: me about ARC is that it's doing this thing that
Speaker 1: happens a lot on the and not so much on
Speaker 1: the left, which is bringing together lots of sort of
Speaker 1: kauzleb under one tent. So you've got the anti climate people,
Speaker 1: you've got the anti feminist people, you've got the anti
Speaker 1: trans people. They're all meeting together to discuss the supposed
Speaker 1: end of Western civilization as we know it. They're all
Speaker 1: meeting together this week in London. So I thought it
Speaker 1: would be a good time to bring you this conversation.
Speaker 1: I hope you enjoy it, and please get in touch
Speaker 1: with all the things you would have said in this conversation.
Speaker 1: Knowing exactly what to say in the moment is not
Speaker 1: always my strong suit, which you'll see here, because I
Speaker 1: definitely took the liberty of cutting in to say some
Speaker 1: things I wish I had thought of at the time. Anyhow,
Speaker 1: all feedback and complaints welcome. It might even turn into
Speaker 1: another messy conversation.
Speaker 3: Enjoy Hello, Hi, my god, can you hear me?
Speaker 2: Yes, I can hear you.
Speaker 1: Awesome. I'm going to turn my video on to say hi,
Speaker 1: but then I might turn it off just because I
Speaker 1: live in a place with pretty spotty WiFi, no problem,
Speaker 1: so you can see I'm a person. Hello.
Speaker 4: Hi.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, so first of all for being here, you
Speaker 2: appreciate that.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So any I think first I'm going to start just
Speaker 2: for the people who are going to be listening to this.
Speaker 2: And it might have been how we got here. Maybe
Speaker 2: I'm just gonna give everybody a background. So I think
Speaker 2: it was not Friday of last week, but the Friday
Speaker 2: of the previous week. I think it was. I got
Speaker 2: a note from my team members over at Atlas and
Speaker 2: they said, hey, mygadvis this article that came out on
Speaker 2: the New Republic and see I'm really here. The title
Speaker 2: it was called me to the Shadowy Global Network villain
Speaker 2: fying climate protesters, And so the whole thing was pretty
Speaker 2: much what I pulled a head piece and on me.
Speaker 2: You give me a paragraph on there, and I'm gonna
Speaker 2: ready for people. And it says Magat Wade, who heads
Speaker 2: an internal Atlas project called the Center for African Prosperity,
Speaker 2: frequently cites the Soto as an inspiration for her take
Speaker 2: on Africa and climate change in multiple up ads over
Speaker 2: the past few years, and in an interview of this
Speaker 2: year with Canadian professor and the right wing figure had
Speaker 2: Jordan Petersen. Wade, who was born in Senegal but moved
Speaker 2: to Germany when she was seven, describes climate activists as
Speaker 2: a new colonialist, arguing that climate action will keep Africans
Speaker 2: poor and deprive them of access to energy. Wad often
Speaker 2: depicts those who would deny the continent its current fossil
Speaker 2: fo goom as out of touch, and regularly claims that
Speaker 2: climate action will kill a billion Africans, all while refusing
Speaker 2: to engage with the fact that African climate activists are
Speaker 2: being arrested at an alarming rate. So that's the piece
Speaker 2: that was written about me.
Speaker 1: Well, so two things. One, I would clarify that the
Speaker 1: piece was about you. As you said, there was you know,
Speaker 1: one paragraph in a four thousand word piece, which was
Speaker 1: not meant to give you short shrift. It's just there's like,
Speaker 1: you know, nearly six hundred at Lists network think tanks
Speaker 1: to get to and the thing that we were looking
Speaker 1: at was how ideas spread within and throughout the Atlas network,
Speaker 1: not you know, any particular think tanks work. But in
Speaker 1: saying that also worth noting, actually the original piece is
Speaker 1: more like six thousand words and includes a lot more
Speaker 1: on your work and trying to look at different economic
Speaker 1: studies and things like that, which is on our site
Speaker 1: at drill Don Media, but New Republic trimmed out quite
Speaker 1: a bit of the story, so I'm happy to send
Speaker 1: you a link to that as well. And yeah, I
Speaker 1: have actually a bunch of questions that I would love
Speaker 1: to ask you about your work. And I submitted a
Speaker 1: contact request through the Atlas network a couple of times
Speaker 1: and didn't get anything back. But I was looking through
Speaker 1: my in box this morning, and you speak typically to me,
Speaker 1: to you and also to check various things with the
Speaker 1: sort of Atleas network at quarters as well. But I
Speaker 1: just saw in my inbox this morning that I got
Speaker 1: bounced replies to that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, give me when I'm trying to reach out to
Speaker 2: someone and then not getting back to me. I but
Speaker 2: you when I first move into check do I even
Speaker 2: have to write emath? But yeah, okay, it.
Speaker 1: Was like in my you know, went to my proportions folder.
Speaker 1: I agree, like I would have much preferred to speak
Speaker 1: to you before the piece came out, and also like
Speaker 1: not just for that piece, but I find this area
Speaker 1: really interesting looking at the idea of how to address
Speaker 1: energy poverty and climate change at the same time, how
Speaker 1: to do that in an equitable way. All of those
Speaker 1: things are big questions that I frankly agree with a
Speaker 1: lot of your take on the failures of the climate
Speaker 1: movement to do that. So I actually think you might
Speaker 1: be surprised at how much I agree with someone you say.
Speaker 2: I am very happy to hear, but I agree with
Speaker 2: my takes, and it will be good to compare notes
Speaker 2: and within a PI pare notes. So first of all,
Speaker 2: it's good. But we basically settled this incident about you
Speaker 2: having reached out to me, because when someone would starting
Speaker 2: to me, I talked to them. So I'm glad we
Speaker 2: clorified that. But I nevert news from you. But you
Speaker 2: wanted to speak to me, So that's number one. And
Speaker 2: then I'm very glad to hear that you share some
Speaker 2: of my views. And when you're talking about religiships between
Speaker 2: climate change and Africa and all of that at the links,
Speaker 2: I really wish that this particle had gotten into it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: because I'm going to tell you where I'm coming from.
Speaker 2: So when I go back and I read this piece,
Speaker 2: mcgat way, your head in an international Atlas project, so
Speaker 2: that's fine. Frequently cites the Soto as an inspiration. The
Speaker 2: inspiration I cite is always, for the most part, George A.
Speaker 2: Ganaghan economist, who really has put his finger as to
Speaker 2: why thereas in Africa, despite its riches and the riches
Speaker 2: of Africa, are its people, are it's land despite all
Speaker 2: of that being rich in all of that, we still
Speaker 2: to be stayed, remain sadly in such a wrong way,
Speaker 2: still the most poor continent in this world. And I'm
Speaker 2: supposed to be bad as an African, and I'm not
Speaker 2: so when you say that I frequently cites you or
Speaker 2: the other three people, because by the way, I manad
Speaker 2: you for your courage to come here and speak with me,
Speaker 2: because I would have liked to have a courtesy from
Speaker 2: the other three people who have been involved in this piece.
Speaker 2: But anyway, so whoever here did there investigation and says
Speaker 2: that I frequently cited Dsto I would like so big
Speaker 2: to put in my face when I cite this, usually
Speaker 2: Georgia or who is who I cite, and a few
Speaker 2: times I cite the Soto, whom I also have a
Speaker 2: lot of respect for. Has to do for I have
Speaker 2: to do with his work related to the maining cause
Speaker 2: as to why my continent is poor because what Hernando
Speaker 2: de Soto did for those who don't know her none
Speaker 2: of the Soto is a Parisian economist and what he
Speaker 2: has done, him too, like me, has been wondering why
Speaker 2: are people poor? Because his negative pole is a poorer
Speaker 2: nation as well, and he said I'm going ready to
Speaker 2: find out what's going on and him a long. People
Speaker 2: like Hyak because I saw you citing Hyak. You see
Speaker 2: these things is setting a lot of great people, but
Speaker 2: really not even understanding why the rest of the world
Speaker 2: respects these people. I don't respect Hyak because supposedly he
Speaker 2: claims that all the ills of society are caused by socialism.
Speaker 2: As you put in the piece, I really don't like
Speaker 2: socialism the philosophy of what socialism and not what the
Speaker 2: young people today think what socialism is. And that might
Speaker 2: be a different conversation for a different time, like when
Speaker 2: you are Hied. The reason why people like me really
Speaker 2: appreciate Hyad is because of how Hyat really is one
Speaker 2: of the few and I would say probably one of
Speaker 2: the first economists whoever started looking in the direction of
Speaker 2: the entrepreneurs as the solution and as the main creators
Speaker 2: of prosperity. All the other economists are out there doing
Speaker 2: some math, model calculations, all types of things that are
Speaker 2: completely removed from the rest of the world. And multiport
Speaker 2: very important to tail. The reason why some of us
Speaker 2: are really someone like me enjoys Hyak, and I think
Speaker 2: he has contributed a lot to the field of economics
Speaker 2: is because of the precise insight but he had about
Speaker 2: the entrepreneur. And so going back to the Soto, Hyak
Speaker 2: has seen that the entrepreneurs have a role to play
Speaker 2: in fighting poverty, not NGOs, and that's another thing. So, yeah,
Speaker 2: you know what the solo did is it an experiment.
Speaker 2: He established himself in a little bit of an artskirts
Speaker 2: of leading a proof and he tried to start a
Speaker 2: little business, a little business where they were sewing feelings
Speaker 2: like really moment pop. He was thinking when happened to
Speaker 2: people like my gad, But because I have a small
Speaker 2: medium sized enterprise in Africa, how does it work for
Speaker 2: us when we're trying to build a business. What's going on?
Speaker 2: What's happening to us? And so he positioned himself as
Speaker 2: a noble body. And then he went through the process
Speaker 2: to legally register the business. He found that it took forever,
Speaker 2: we're talking here, almost a two thirds of the year.
Speaker 2: The amount of money it cost in fees, it was
Speaker 2: pretty much close to somebody's salary. So he's found that
Speaker 2: it was impossible for people like that to start a business. Impossible.
Speaker 2: And so he went on to write this book called
Speaker 2: The Mystery of Capital and explaining all of that. And
Speaker 2: so the times when you would hear someone like me
Speaker 2: sighting the Sodo, it has to do with that, not
Speaker 2: what you're saying here and what your piece is saying
Speaker 2: about the Soto. It was trying to make the Sodo
Speaker 2: look very bad here, I'm going to find him. Where
Speaker 2: is the Sodo when you're saying, but de Sodo basically
Speaker 2: went and he told the people in the Amazon forest.
Speaker 1: I'm just you know, summarizing when you say that.
Speaker 2: He went there and he told the indigenous people. You know,
Speaker 2: if we give you a piece of the action, it's
Speaker 2: a way to muzzle them up. And I'm just like saying, Amy,
Speaker 2: have you spent time in African nations and which ones
Speaker 2: if you have?
Speaker 1: I have not spent much time in Africa. I've spent
Speaker 1: a lot of time in Latin America and I lived
Speaker 1: in Latin America, so I'm very familiar with how things
Speaker 1: work in the soda. And Okay, can I just say
Speaker 1: speak now, because I you know, you've said a lot
Speaker 1: of things. It'd be good to respond to you. So
Speaker 1: I don't think there's anything in there that says, you know,
Speaker 1: this terrible man de Soto. It just says what he's
Speaker 1: argued for, which is not inaccurate. It is true that
Speaker 1: what he has argued for is for property rights and
Speaker 1: a profit share for Indigenous.
Speaker 2: People, and what's wrong with that and what's wrong with side?
Speaker 1: I don't know anything wrong with that.
Speaker 2: It's fine here.
Speaker 1: I would appreciate, yeah, being able to finish my sentence.
Speaker 1: Thank you. So he says that, you know, he argues
Speaker 1: that's the fix for indigenous protests, and in terms of
Speaker 1: it being a strategy to shut down protest, that's very
Speaker 1: explicitly laid out on the ILD website. They have a
Speaker 1: whole site that's called that. I think it's the Avatar
Speaker 1: miss theory or something along those lines, and it very
Speaker 1: explicitly says, you know, for people that are concerned about
Speaker 1: the impact that indigenous protest is having on business and development.
Speaker 1: We believe that this is the solve for that and
Speaker 1: kind of lays out how.
Speaker 2: To do it.
Speaker 1: So all we were trying to show in the piece
Speaker 1: was how this idea kind of starts with de Soto
Speaker 1: and spreads to multiple other atlas think tanks, which I
Speaker 1: don't think is inaccurate. You know, it is fairly easy
Speaker 1: to follow, and whether or not that's a good or
Speaker 1: bad thing is not something that I or I think
Speaker 1: any of my colleagues ever say. In the piece, it's like, look,
Speaker 1: this is happening. It's not very well publicized that it's happening,
Speaker 1: and it's a strategy.
Speaker 2: A mean but title a few piece says it all.
Speaker 2: But this shadowy global network will deifying climate protesters. And
Speaker 2: this is the long piece. So I will really recommend
Speaker 2: to everybody to go back and read it. But the
Speaker 2: way this paragraph, anybody who would read this paragraph in
Speaker 2: the context also of the rest of the piece, and
Speaker 2: also the way this paragraph was written, you're making a
Speaker 2: commentary here, And with that, I'm going to move on,
Speaker 2: because there's a reason why I really wanted to have
Speaker 2: you on here. So the website, So I will ask
Speaker 2: people to go out and read this piece and then
Speaker 2: you let me know your opinion. But this whole idea
Speaker 2: of a DeSoto is an anti climate person, I think
Speaker 2: that's totally misguided. But I digress.
Speaker 1: So next, I think that's actually that's interesting. So how
Speaker 1: did you kind of frame Desoto's approach on on time action.
Speaker 2: So the bigger talk I want to have is bet
Speaker 2: is bigger, and it's bigger and better than de Soto. So, okay,
Speaker 2: if you hear me Olgible here exactly where it is
Speaker 2: that I'm going with all of us so far.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, So I'm just going to jump in here
Speaker 1: for a minute to remind folks of why we were
Speaker 1: touching on DeSoto in both the written piece and the
Speaker 1: podcast episode about Atlas. It's because he really seems to
Speaker 1: be the person who began advocating pretty early on for
Speaker 1: a strategy that would later be called redwashing, and it's
Speaker 1: a strategy that we see other ATLAS think tanks, particularly
Speaker 1: the American Enterprise Institute in the US and the McDonald
Speaker 1: Laurier Institute in Canada, starting to deploy over the years,
Speaker 1: often using the same rhetoric and arguments as de Soto.
Speaker 1: Here's a snippet from our episode on Atlas, just to
Speaker 1: jog your memory. One of the very first think tanks
Speaker 1: created by this newly formed Atlas Network was the Institute
Speaker 1: for Liberty and Democracy in Peru. It was started the
Speaker 1: same year the Atlas Network started, in nineteen eighty one,
Speaker 1: and its founder was a well known economist. De DeSoto
Speaker 1: came up with a theory that wound up reverberating throughout
Speaker 1: the Atlas Network universe.
Speaker 2: It's a really good.
Speaker 1: Example of just how much these think tanks talk to
Speaker 1: each other and how ideas spread. Masna Nusavata here he
Speaker 1: is giving a TED talk in twenty eleven explaining his
Speaker 1: strategy for dealing with indigenous environmental activism.
Speaker 5: Well internationalists I savings Inna No Usa FIST.
Speaker 1: He says, part of the problem is they don't have
Speaker 1: titles to property. And if you ask why, certain international
Speaker 1: organizations and environmental groups will say, well, you know, indigenous
Speaker 1: people don't want to be landowners. They wander around the forest.
Speaker 1: But when he went there with his colleagues, he saw
Speaker 1: immense poverty. Desta started to think about this whole situation
Speaker 1: a lot more because of a bloody standoff between indigenous
Speaker 1: land defenders and police in Peru.
Speaker 6: Dozens of people are estimated to have been killed in
Speaker 6: clashes between police and indigenous activists protesting oil and mining
Speaker 6: projects in the northern Peruvian Amazonian province of Bagua.
Speaker 1: Indigenous leaders were protesting the encroachment on their land by
Speaker 1: various interests, including timber mining and oil and gas.
Speaker 6: I Witness accounts indicate the police fired live ammunition and
Speaker 6: tear gas into the crowd. Alberto Pizango, the leader of
Speaker 6: the national indigenous organization, the Peruvian Jungle Into Ethnic Development
Speaker 6: Association or EDISSEP, accused the government of President Alan Garcia
Speaker 6: of ordering the quote genocide of the indigenous communities.
Speaker 2: Yokiro, our brothers are cornered. I want to put the
Speaker 2: responsibility on the government.
Speaker 4: We are going to put the responsibility on Alan Garcia's.
Speaker 2: Government, the Alan Garcia for ordering.
Speaker 1: As Jena said, DeSoto argues that the solution to all
Speaker 1: this is just to cut indigenous groups in on the profits,
Speaker 1: to give them property rights and a share of resource
Speaker 1: and mineral rights, so that they will stop protesting for
Speaker 1: control over their land. This idea shows up again in
Speaker 1: Canada a couple of years later, when the McDonald Laurier Institute,
Speaker 1: another Atlas Network think tank and a partner of the
Speaker 1: Fraser Institute, starts to put out a bunch of papers
Speaker 1: in the week of Indigenous led protests. There, go back
Speaker 1: and listen to the rest of that episode if you
Speaker 1: haven't heard it yet. We're going to take a quick
Speaker 1: freak here and get back to my conversation with the
Speaker 1: Godwave and stay with us.
Speaker 2: So earlier when we started, you said that you don't
Speaker 2: actually disagree with a lot of things that I say
Speaker 2: about the climate. For anybody that knows a little bit
Speaker 2: of my work on all of this, my whole thing,
Speaker 2: my full purpose in this world. The hill I will
Speaker 2: die on is prosperity for Africans and I want that
Speaker 2: in my left mm hmm. And for prosperity to be built.
Speaker 2: There is only one way only prosperity can be built.
Speaker 2: Prosperity is built by entrepreneurs. Entrepreneurs need what we call
Speaker 2: the tool kit on the endrepreneurs in there, primarily the
Speaker 2: way you sum up everything that they need. This concept
Speaker 2: of floor of law, clear and transferable property right, all
Speaker 2: of them is very important for the entrepreneur to be
Speaker 2: able to enterprise economies is also call it economic freedom.
Speaker 2: You have the best way to call it is just
Speaker 2: is an individual, especially if you're a nobody individual somewhere,
Speaker 2: can you or not start and run a business easily?
Speaker 2: And when it comes to that, you have multiple you know,
Speaker 2: economic indexes that measure that very simple, you know situations.
Speaker 2: And one of them was Doing Business of the Doing
Speaker 2: Business Index of the World Bank. And then you have
Speaker 2: another one of the Economic Freedom Index of Friger Institute.
Speaker 2: Another guy that you guys make out to sound like
Speaker 2: these conspirationists out there, you know, trying to describe the
Speaker 2: world with the right way ideas. So there again these
Speaker 2: people that you demonize, this this seems to demonize people
Speaker 2: like me, actually happen to love. I love the Friger
Speaker 2: Institute insofar as they focus on economic freedom and really
Speaker 2: pointing there too, because when it comes to economic freedom,
Speaker 2: how easy or hard it is for anyone anywhere in
Speaker 2: the world to start and run a business. It turns out,
Speaker 2: but the index is showing exactly when I, as a
Speaker 2: business entrepreneur doing business both in Africa and in the US,
Speaker 2: I have seen At first, I thought it was just
Speaker 2: an anecdote. At first, I thought, oh, you know, it
Speaker 2: is normal. We're poor, so it's hard to do business
Speaker 2: back home, and here they're rich, it's needy to do business.
Speaker 2: And instead I came to realize we are poor nations
Speaker 2: of poor because they make it hard for the wealth
Speaker 2: creatives to create, and rich nations are prospers because they
Speaker 2: make it easy for wealth creatives to create. So the
Speaker 2: minute I understood that, my whole life changed, so many
Speaker 2: things started to make sense and I started just to
Speaker 2: follow that path. And so when you look there, you
Speaker 2: realize that it is harder for almost anyone in suburban
Speaker 2: Africa to do business than this for anyone in Scandainaia.
Speaker 2: And that fact is very important because if we want
Speaker 2: to fix the problem, and I would want so, this
Speaker 2: is actually is a question I'm going to have for you.
Speaker 2: If you're serious about building prosperity in Africa, then we
Speaker 2: have to be serious about this issue around the lack
Speaker 2: of economic freedom. So Frasier Institute measures things like that
Speaker 2: for doing business, measures things like that. Atlas Network has
Speaker 2: been working with people to kind of improve this situation.
Speaker 2: So we need economic freedom to build prosperity. Our entrepreneurs
Speaker 2: need that. And you know what else, entrepreneurs need access
Speaker 2: to reliable and affordable energy source. This is actually when
Speaker 2: I got into the fight. This is what and when
Speaker 2: I got into the fight, into the climate action fight,
Speaker 2: because when you have these anti fosteril fuel Zalites who
Speaker 2: are sitting halfware across the world in very comfortable places,
Speaker 2: telling me an African what is it but I get
Speaker 2: to do or not do in my continent when we
Speaker 2: happen to still be the poorest region in the world
Speaker 2: and people are still dying. I said, I have a problem.
Speaker 2: So Amy, do you believe that? Do you support prosperity
Speaker 2: for actors even it means this is a very I
Speaker 2: do so.
Speaker 1: Actually, yes I do.
Speaker 2: This is pause. I just want to shar about it
Speaker 2: against Do you, yes, prospiity for Africa even if it
Speaker 2: means use a fossil fuels, Yes, I do so.
Speaker 1: This is why I was happy to talk to you,
Speaker 1: because I was like, I feel like this whole thing
Speaker 1: is getting it's getting really polarized in a way that's
Speaker 1: just not helpful. I was just in a room full
Speaker 1: of people this past week, Global North people saying, look,
Speaker 1: the solution is to turn off fossil fuels, that's it,
Speaker 1: And then someone from India and another person from Africa saying, well,
Speaker 1: you guys don't understand that we're still dealing with X
Speaker 1: y Z and how do we deal with that without
Speaker 1: fossil fuels. Right, to be honest, I think that the
Speaker 1: solution is that the global Norse transitions quickly off of
Speaker 1: fossil fuels while the Global South continues to develop. When
Speaker 1: I hear people say we just energy poverty first, I'm like, well, yeah,
Speaker 1: I agree. I think we should solve energy poverty. I
Speaker 1: don't think it's an either or. I think they can
Speaker 1: happen at the same time. And I think that rich
Speaker 1: countries in the Global North have a much bigger obligation
Speaker 1: to do what they can to reduce emissions and decarbonize
Speaker 1: as quickly as possible. Unfortunately, that's not happening, and neither
Speaker 1: are the Global North companies that are developing oil and
Speaker 1: gas resources in Africa doing anything at all about energy poverty.
Speaker 1: So that's the piece where I'm like, Okay, yes, I agree.
Speaker 1: But the oil and gas that's being developed in Africa
Speaker 1: right now, more than half of it is exported to
Speaker 1: Europe and Asia. The African countries that have those resources
Speaker 1: have terrible contracts that lock them into not getting anywhere
Speaker 1: near what they should be getting for those resources. None
Speaker 1: of those contracts require distribution locally. So like the example,
Speaker 1: this is Nigeria, that's the oldest and largest fossil fuel
Speaker 1: industry on the continent of Africa, right last in the
Speaker 1: world on energy access. So when I see people say, oh,
Speaker 1: fossil fuel development equals a solved to energy poverty, where's
Speaker 1: the proof of that. It hasn't happened on the continent
Speaker 1: of Africa. It hasn't even happened in the United States,
Speaker 1: which is like the birthplace of the industry. So that's
Speaker 1: where I'm like, Okay, if we're going to talk about
Speaker 1: energy poverty, let's talk about actually solving it, and also
Speaker 1: the fact that doing so and solving for climate which
Speaker 1: will also impact people in Africa and Latin America first
Speaker 1: and worst. Why can't we do both together in a
Speaker 1: way that actually like solves both problems.
Speaker 2: So can I respond not because I'm trying? Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: please head flop. So this is great, This is great,
Speaker 2: and I really wish that pieces like this. So when
Speaker 2: you say I'm so, I find it's so sad and
Speaker 2: so bad that the things had become so polarized. I'm sorry,
Speaker 2: but the piece like this that's not help with the polarization.
Speaker 2: It just doesn't. This piece would have been so much
Speaker 2: more interesting, Amy, if first of all, had put in
Speaker 2: a lot of these caveats that you're sharing with me
Speaker 2: right now, it would have made for such a much
Speaker 2: more interesting piece and piece. But what you said about
Speaker 2: America and needing to do this, need to do that,
Speaker 2: I will leave it to Americans to talk about these things.
Speaker 2: When I wear my American hat, I can also talk
Speaker 2: about But today the reason why I'm talking to you
Speaker 2: is the African magat because my roots and I'm African
Speaker 2: first and foremost. So when you go back and said, well,
Speaker 2: you know, if the oil industry and if also huels
Speaker 2: were so important to Africa, would have known by now
Speaker 2: because clearly, but Africa is not where it should be
Speaker 2: right now, so it tells me that we don't necessarily
Speaker 2: you know, that's not what I said.
Speaker 1: What I said was if developing oil and gas resources
Speaker 1: in Africa was going to solve energy poverty, we would
Speaker 1: have seen that happen in Nigeria. I think there's a
Speaker 1: huge problem with the companies that are doing the work
Speaker 1: in those countries not being required to actually address energy poverty,
Speaker 1: especially because a lot of those companies are now saying
Speaker 1: that like that's the entire reason that they're in Africa.
Speaker 1: So I would say, okay, make them do that. Then,
Speaker 1: like there's enough resources on the continent to address this issue,
Speaker 1: and you know, you know, I feel like there's a
Speaker 1: huge amount of work that needs to be done to
Speaker 1: look at how fossil fuel contracts are made, how developing
Speaker 1: financing works, all of that stuff, how the whole investor
Speaker 1: state disputed system is set up that robs countries of
Speaker 1: their sovereignty, all of that stuff. So like, in order
Speaker 1: for this entrepreneurship to work that you're talking about and
Speaker 1: for businesses to succeed, you also can't have a giant
Speaker 1: industry kind of corrupting that process.
Speaker 2: I'd be jumping there the ways. So first of all,
Speaker 2: thanks for clarifying people here. And I don't have a
Speaker 2: problem with what you just said. My country, Senegal just
Speaker 2: discovered oil, when I say, just a few years ago,
Speaker 2: discovered discovered gas, huge reserves of oil gas and it
Speaker 2: is estimated, but we probably will only get to keep
Speaker 2: ten percent of the proceed.
Speaker 1: Of that right, and that would be high. That would
Speaker 1: be high.
Speaker 2: And meanwhile, while clean ass Germany is over there saying
Speaker 2: so no more Bostil fuels and the Green Party of
Speaker 2: Germany now when reality really hit them hard this past winter,
Speaker 2: like let's reopen the cool mind because because by the way,
Speaker 2: this fool thing that you were trying to sell us
Speaker 2: that renewable was ready, it's not ready. If it was ready,
Speaker 2: you would have gotten there. And meanwhile, the same Germany
Speaker 2: coming to my country to try negotiations and m So
Speaker 2: the reason why I say that's it's just like me
Speaker 2: when I thought we were poor. We were it's hard
Speaker 2: to do business in Africa because we're poor, and I
Speaker 2: discovered it was giveaway around. I will tell you here
Speaker 2: today the same exactly that I say to some of
Speaker 2: my friends who might be saying the same thing you said.
Speaker 2: So the reason why we're being literally this exploited. And
Speaker 2: it's not just oiler, it's not just oil. I have
Speaker 2: a bigger problem with the Angels, the eight industry. As
Speaker 2: we know. The reason why it's so easy for everybody
Speaker 2: to come to our nations and vi the kings and
Speaker 2: queens on our own land. Is because we are poor.
Speaker 2: And I will say it again, why are we poor?
Speaker 2: I am not poor because the oil and gas company
Speaker 2: people are taking my fossil fuels away. It's not a
Speaker 2: good thing. That's definitely not a good thing. And we
Speaker 2: intend to do better. But the only time we're going
Speaker 2: to be able to do better with them not benefiting
Speaker 2: more from us is going to be when our people
Speaker 2: are not so longer poor, where we don't have time
Speaker 2: to really look at what our leaders are doing, and
Speaker 2: even when we see there's nothing we can do. In
Speaker 2: my country, some reports came up, but there was some
Speaker 2: corruption that happened there, basically a coil but food on
Speaker 2: the cheap, and most of our people didn't even have
Speaker 2: time to complain about it. After a few months, little noise,
Speaker 2: everybody went back to trying and find food, because when
Speaker 2: the majority of people are poor, most people don't have
Speaker 2: time to go and see look at what the president
Speaker 2: is doing and what the type of nasty deals are doing.
Speaker 2: We don't have a strong society, We don't have organizations
Speaker 2: that are looking into all of this, bringing them to
Speaker 2: the forefront and all of that. Gri staff as you
Speaker 2: may not know. So my point is this is not
Speaker 2: us going and trying to force these people do this
Speaker 2: and to do that. At the end of the day,
Speaker 2: as long as we remain poor, we will be the
Speaker 2: carpet on which everyone else and the mothers walks on.
Speaker 2: And it is just the way it is. And so
Speaker 2: for me, my plan is not tell the oil company
Speaker 2: to one or company of that company do this, do that.
Speaker 2: As long as the situation is the way it is,
Speaker 2: we will remain where we are now. If we manage
Speaker 2: to free our entrepreneurs build the type of prosperity, and
Speaker 2: they will also have access to the type of oil
Speaker 2: because if our entrepreneurs are enterprising and they have the
Speaker 2: money to pay for the fossil fuels to be handled
Speaker 2: diregged on the ground, this is the force that's going
Speaker 2: to make world companies to say, you know, to be like, oh,
Speaker 2: maybe we should leave more in here, because guess what,
Speaker 2: at that point, it's not about somebody telling them you
Speaker 2: want to do the right thing, You need to give
Speaker 2: what's worth you know there For us it feels worth
Speaker 2: in money. No, what happens is, oh, g there's a
Speaker 2: bucket here, there is a market here. These people can
Speaker 2: pay for it, these companies can pay for it. But
Speaker 2: my point is, you see that if the force I
Speaker 2: kill myself trying to tell people economic freedom is what
Speaker 2: we need in order to unleash all the other dominoes.
Speaker 2: But instead every is busy. I seeing almost operating in
Speaker 2: a worldview in which US Africans are going to remain
Speaker 2: poor for the rest of our lives. When you poor,
Speaker 2: you have no voice. When you poor, you're not a market.
Speaker 2: When you're not a market, nobody cares to you. But
Speaker 2: I go back to my piece being that when I
Speaker 2: see a piece like this and you're here, this piece
Speaker 2: is all about defending last generation. It's all about defending
Speaker 2: rights of these climate activists people to ba basically do
Speaker 2: whatever it is that we're doing. That's what this piece
Speaker 2: Wallows was all about. I would have loved So when
Speaker 2: I see a piece like this defending the rights of
Speaker 2: rich kids, excuse me people calling them this way, because seriously,
Speaker 2: when I look around, that's what I see. Rich kids
Speaker 2: who are looking for a way, for an existent show,
Speaker 2: for a way maybe to exist in this world. And
Speaker 2: I tell them, if you want to exist in this world,
Speaker 2: if you want to feel like you're doing something really useful.
Speaker 2: Why don't you come with me on the battle of
Speaker 2: making sure that Africans have access to economic freedom as
Speaker 2: well as that we do not stop pipelines that are
Speaker 2: being built, by the way, trying to be built in
Speaker 2: places like Tanzania, in places like Ugandas. Why is it
Speaker 2: that you are right now protesting those type of developments?
Speaker 2: So you are not here?
Speaker 7: You are?
Speaker 2: You say that you're fighting for the climate and nature?
Speaker 2: Are we people not part of climate and nature?
Speaker 8: You are?
Speaker 2: But in the name of climate and literature, we can
Speaker 2: just die, Thank you very much. And I think you
Speaker 2: have trying to say that here, so.
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to say that here at all. That's
Speaker 1: a total mischaracterization.
Speaker 2: I was saying. I'm saying, yeah, actually say that. But
Speaker 2: is Ampy, with all of the things to fight for
Speaker 2: in the world, with all critical problems to fight for
Speaker 2: in the world that you said before it was a
Speaker 2: four thousand, you know, word piece, four thousand word piece.
Speaker 2: I see complaints about pretty much everybody and the mothers
Speaker 2: as long as we're related to Atlas network. But I see,
Speaker 2: and I see and all of that in defense of
Speaker 2: rich kids deciding to glue themselves to the asphalt or
Speaker 2: to some paintings, and then crying out loud, why is
Speaker 2: it that they're being arrested broad I live in If
Speaker 2: you're messing up with somebody's property, that's the problem.
Speaker 1: Okay, So cutting it again here, because this thing that
Speaker 1: my God keeps saying at this point in our conversation,
Speaker 1: she kind of keeps repeating it that these climate activists
Speaker 1: are rich kids, and the tone is kind of like
Speaker 1: they're annoying rich kids who are destroying property for no reason.
Speaker 1: This is actually like a pretty key message that we
Speaker 1: saw at list network folks hammering on again and again
Speaker 1: in the media all over the world. In fact, we
Speaker 1: talked about it a lot in our episode. It's a
Speaker 1: big part of the strategy to demonize and minimize what
Speaker 1: climate at activists are fighting for, which is not at
Speaker 1: all to say that activists don't sometimes get it wrong.
Speaker 1: We've talked about that before in our last episode, in fact,
Speaker 1: we got into the details about why applying class and
Speaker 1: race filters are so extremely critical to successful activism. But
Speaker 1: it's just not true that all climate activists are rich
Speaker 1: white kids. The activists fighting the pipeline Magot mentioned in
Speaker 1: Tanzania and Uganda, for example. Those are mostly young people
Speaker 1: who are from those countries. In fact, we've got an
Speaker 1: episode on that fight coming soon where you'll hear from
Speaker 1: some of those folks. There are definitely activists in other
Speaker 1: countries who are supporting them. Usually those folks are protesting
Speaker 1: the banks in their countries that are financing the pipeline.
Speaker 1: But the resistance is home grown, which brings me to
Speaker 1: another thing I think is important to note here. Africans
Speaker 1: are not a monolith. In the global South are not
Speaker 1: a monolith. There are people who are for and against
Speaker 1: fossil fuels in every country. Longtime listeners of this show
Speaker 1: might remember Guyanese attorney Melinda Jinki's absolute disdain for the
Speaker 1: idea that global North countries should transition away from fossil
Speaker 1: fuels quickly while the Global South continues to use fossil
Speaker 1: fuels for a while longer.
Speaker 7: Developing countries should have until twenty fifty to.
Speaker 2: Come away from oil. Why would you say.
Speaker 7: That when in every single former colony people are saying
Speaker 7: stop the oil, we don't want it.
Speaker 8: Yeah, and places like Uganda and Mozambique, and you know
Speaker 8: they're putting their lives on the line to stop oil.
Speaker 8: And when you sit in your comfortable.
Speaker 7: University room and say, oh, well, I've decided that I'm
Speaker 7: in the interesting justices. People shouldn't have to get rid
Speaker 7: of the fossil fuel until twenty fifty. And in order
Speaker 7: to make this really fair, the first world should now
Speaker 7: I mutually convert to renewable energy. In other words, all
Speaker 7: the white people go straight for renewable energy, align their
Speaker 7: economies and move on to prosperous, free future. Don't this
Speaker 7: stuff on the third world. But I'm doing this under
Speaker 7: the guise of the just transition.
Speaker 1: That season also included a great interview with Yale economist
Speaker 1: Nara Sima Rao, who talked about the role that global
Speaker 1: development funding plays in all of this and the real
Speaker 1: structural blockers to energy transition for a lot of global
Speaker 1: South countries.
Speaker 4: So the need for international cooperation for technology transfer and
Speaker 4: some sort of consideration of fair efforts is essential for
Speaker 4: deeper transformations in these wa economies. Having said that, there
Speaker 4: is some potential for them to scale up renewables beyond
Speaker 4: what they're currently doing potentially, but still there's an upfront
Speaker 4: capital requirement. So let me speak about finance. For a second,
Speaker 4: if you look at private finance today, the cost of
Speaker 4: capitals are exactly inversely related to the average income of countries.
Speaker 4: That is, the poorest countries in Sub Saharan Africa have
Speaker 4: the highest costs of capital seen by a private finance
Speaker 4: because they see high risk in investing in these economies.
Speaker 4: But this is a problem also of how risk is
Speaker 4: assessed and measured. So for example, you know, we think
Speaker 4: about credit risk. People need to have debt to get
Speaker 4: new debt, and that's circular and maybe inappropriate for people
Speaker 4: who never been part of the former economy, but they
Speaker 4: may yet have a record, a perfect record of paying
Speaker 4: bills to the extent they receive existing services. So the
Speaker 4: existing market for finance on its own is going to
Speaker 4: be even more challenge because of the fact that the
Speaker 4: poorest countries have the highest demanding cost of capital. So
Speaker 4: there's going to have to be some kind of government
Speaker 4: intervention to underwrite private finance if at all, or some
Speaker 4: sort of broadest scheme for government cooperation. And so that's
Speaker 4: with regards to the transformation. Now are developing countries thinking
Speaker 4: only short term, not thinking long term. For the most part,
Speaker 4: we have to understand that poor countries have development priorities
Speaker 4: that are long standing, and over the last few decades,
Speaker 4: generally countries started out by saying that the climate is
Speaker 4: a northern problem. It's a problem created by the West
Speaker 4: and has to be dealt with by them. But over time,
Speaker 4: for various reasons, it's been understood that all countries have
Speaker 4: to be part of the energy transition, and also that
Speaker 4: there are several opportunities for efficiently growing in ways that
Speaker 4: will be beneficial to even low income countries, for example
Speaker 4: by reducing air pollution and other health benefits of transitioning
Speaker 4: to clean energy. So there has been a push towards
Speaker 4: trying to integrate and mainstream climate conditions and climate priorities
Speaker 4: into development priorities. But it's really important to understand that
Speaker 4: we have to embed climate considerations within the existing set
Speaker 4: of priorities developing countries have, rather than to think about
Speaker 4: it as let's see how we can introduce climate policy
Speaker 4: and think about other benefits for development. So that mainstreaming
Speaker 4: of climate into development policy, I think is happening increasingly,
Speaker 4: and so yes, poor countries are mostly thinking about near
Speaker 4: term priorities, but there has been significant progress and at
Speaker 4: least formally thinking about climate partically including them in plans
Speaker 4: for the future, but very often conditional on support from
Speaker 4: the international community.
Speaker 1: I'll stick links to those episodes in the show notes
Speaker 1: as well in case you missed them. Time for another
Speaker 1: quick break. Okay, back to my conversation with macgott Wade,
Speaker 1: who runs the Center for African Prosperity. It's part of
Speaker 1: the Atlas network of think tanks.
Speaker 2: So you know, I mean I saw these peaks. At
Speaker 2: first I was angry, and then I was so sad.
Speaker 2: Do you know why I was sad because I told myself,
Speaker 2: I said, at first I was angry, or first because
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh my god, how do they even get it?
Speaker 2: And then I was very sad because I said, and
Speaker 2: there again my life as a black person and how
Speaker 2: and all the issues I talk about for you know
Speaker 2: or people, Oh that real pain, those disasters you know.
Speaker 2: Today listen, Amy, I'm I'm gonna share this with you
Speaker 2: because I have to today. Here here you go on
Speaker 2: this thing. This is you see, this is a word
Speaker 2: said that I go to and I'll share with you here.
Speaker 2: I'll show it you. You see this photo. You see
Speaker 2: a boat, right boat with people in it, yeah, the
Speaker 2: news of today. Every day, Amy, I have these news
Speaker 2: every day, and he said, let police antercept trant me.
Speaker 2: The police intercepted a boat with thirty migrants in it,
Speaker 2: and they arrested five of the people who were helping
Speaker 2: them Russ Today it was only three. But every single day, Amy,
Speaker 2: I get these news, and you know that these people
Speaker 2: will not make it so when I see suffering, When
Speaker 2: I see this suffering of people who are so poor
Speaker 2: in their nations. The jobs don't exist because the business,
Speaker 2: because we end entrepreneurs cannot create businesses, and it becomes
Speaker 2: so dire. But these kids, for so many of them,
Speaker 2: behlf my age, and they're saying, you know what, we
Speaker 2: are leaving, we have to go make a living. And
Speaker 2: you tell them, you know how many nights I spend
Speaker 2: some time on the phone trying to talk to a
Speaker 2: woman who is about to take off with her baby
Speaker 2: on these boats. I spend all night trying to talk
Speaker 2: her out of it, because I know she ha's more
Speaker 2: chances of dying than not. Yeah, and then I see
Speaker 2: a piece like this, but where what is the part
Speaker 2: of the promoting is part of a problem for me?
Speaker 2: They're not solving my problem. I'm making it worse. And
Speaker 2: then I see a piece like this where you give
Speaker 2: them four thousand words, four thousand words, and there's none
Speaker 2: for me, none. I don't exist. And that made me
Speaker 2: so sad. First I was met.
Speaker 9: Then I was sad because I was like, and there
Speaker 9: we go. We don't even matter some kids wanting to
Speaker 9: just go and do what the reason they're doing. It's
Speaker 9: more important to defend then trying to work so much.
Speaker 9: These people don't go, These people don't go.
Speaker 3: Go, Megan, sorry.
Speaker 1: You know, the beauty of a podcast is that when
Speaker 1: you're listening to a conversation later and you realize that
Speaker 1: you should have said something, you could just go ahead
Speaker 1: and say it. It feels important here to point out
Speaker 1: that a lot of coour migrants are being pushed out
Speaker 1: of their homes by extreme weather events as well. We're
Speaker 1: bamine caused by drought, and again, not all climate activists
Speaker 1: are rich white people. What we're talking about protecting is
Speaker 1: the basic right to protest, not some spoiled brat's right
Speaker 1: to do whatever they want.
Speaker 10: Okay, back to my gut, Okay, soist Amy, It's just
Speaker 10: I'm just like you see, this is why when I
Speaker 10: was Jordan Peterson.
Speaker 2: And even there you criticize me. That's all I was
Speaker 2: talking to him about. And I will say this to anyone,
Speaker 2: but willing to hear me out. I don't care who
Speaker 2: you are because I think is it important? And I
Speaker 2: refuse to be like, oh you on de side, you
Speaker 2: on decide, I don't talk.
Speaker 8: No.
Speaker 2: At least he was willing to hear me out. And
Speaker 2: when I say my people are dying, this is important.
Speaker 2: The policies that this guy right here, this face, he took,
Speaker 2: what he's defending goes straight against my people. And I
Speaker 2: will never ever state that more much what happened. And
Speaker 2: so when you say black lives matter, maybe we have
Speaker 2: to be clear about which black lives matter, maybe because's
Speaker 2: only American black lives that matter, and maybe US African
Speaker 2: black lives. And by the way, with ninety percent of
Speaker 2: a representatives of black race, maybe our ass doesn't matter.
Speaker 2: And that's what I was trying to explain to Jordan Peterson.
Speaker 2: And it is like this four thousand words given to
Speaker 2: defend this guy white cheere with promoting stop what's gonna
Speaker 2: kill my people or stand in our way? I just
Speaker 2: don't know anymore. When I said, I don't know, I
Speaker 2: don't know. I'm so glad you're shop because maybe I
Speaker 2: can hear from you. I yeah, and that Afrika matter.
Speaker 1: You definitely matter. Africa definitely matters. I'm really genuinely sorry
Speaker 1: that this piece made you feel this way. It was
Speaker 1: definitely not the intention. Let me just kind of explain
Speaker 1: a little bit about what it was that we were
Speaker 1: looking at here, which was not defending any one climate
Speaker 1: activist group necessarily. I would say, like the guy that
Speaker 1: you're pointing to, he's with last generation. Their asks are
Speaker 1: pretty pretty small. It's like institute one hundred kilometer an
Speaker 1: our speed limit on the Autobahn and give everyone access
Speaker 1: to free public transit. So they're not advocating for anything
Speaker 1: that would negatively impact people in Africa. One of the
Speaker 1: things that we were looking at was not the protection
Speaker 1: of climate protests necessarily, but really the crackdown on free
Speaker 1: speech in general. So which is something that like from
Speaker 1: like I have read and seen most at list network
Speaker 1: thing tanks are very supportive of free speech. So it's
Speaker 1: surprising to see, you know, intense amount of support for
Speaker 1: some kinds of free speech, but this sort of extreme approach,
Speaker 1: and not from you by the way I should. I
Speaker 1: feel like that should be made clear here. I have
Speaker 1: not ever seen you vilify climate protesters in any way.
Speaker 1: You have a difference of opinion with some of them,
Speaker 1: but I don't think that you have said or done
Speaker 1: anything that would contribute to what's happening right now, which
Speaker 1: is the criminalization of protests. So really it's the criminalization
Speaker 1: of protest piece which will affect all people everywhere. That
Speaker 1: is a big problem for me, just as someone who
Speaker 1: thinks that you know, hey, if you believe in free speech,
Speaker 1: that has to include speech you don't like to, you know.
Speaker 2: Like, it can't just be the speech that you agree with.
Speaker 1: So that was the focus of that piece on the
Speaker 1: subject of climate politics and how it does or doesn't
Speaker 1: support prosperity in Africa. I think again, like I said before,
Speaker 1: I feel like the climate movement has absolutely failed Africa.
Speaker 1: I see people all the time that just do not
Speaker 1: want to engage with anything around the need for cheap,
Speaker 1: reliable energy. And to your point before about Germany going
Speaker 1: back to coal, yeah, I think it's ridiculous to push
Speaker 1: the idea of everyone transitioning to renewables before that's technologically feasible,
Speaker 1: which it is not at the moment technologically feasible to
Speaker 1: have the sort of scale of renewables that you would
Speaker 1: need to power all of Africa. And also, by the way,
Speaker 1: if that technology was available, it's going the usual route
Speaker 1: of heading to Europe first and then the rest of
Speaker 1: the world. So like, ignoring that fact and that history
Speaker 1: is disingenuous and not helpful. That said, I also think
Speaker 1: if we're going to say, okay, look we need more
Speaker 1: entrepreneurship in Africa, we need support for entrepreneurs and business
Speaker 1: and a part of that support is access to cheap,
Speaker 1: free energy. Totally agree. I think that should be you know,
Speaker 1: energy source agnostic. So like, if there's a situation where
Speaker 1: nuclear or hydro or renewables is the cheaper, more available option,
Speaker 1: then that should be allowed to happen. Right now, what's
Speaker 1: happening is kind of the reverse where there's a real
Speaker 1: push and again I'm gonna mention the fossil fuel industry
Speaker 1: because they're not just like any old mom and pops
Speaker 1: set up. You know, they've got quite a lot of
Speaker 1: power all over the world. There is quite a big
Speaker 1: push right now to lock in these contracts that require
Speaker 1: countries to be on fossil fuels for thirty plus years.
Speaker 1: So that to me is again actually like really not
Speaker 1: a free market approach.
Speaker 2: That is one.
Speaker 1: Industry saying you're gonna sign this contract with us and
Speaker 1: you're gonna be not allowed to change for thirty years.
Speaker 1: That's not an improvement, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'm gonna So there there are two things.
Speaker 2: So so you're saying some there's two things. And first
Speaker 2: of all, I am appreciative of the fact that you
Speaker 2: at least support prosperity for Africa and you all don't
Speaker 2: seem to be an anti fALS of flue. I call
Speaker 2: them the anti fos fuel zalous. So it doesn't seem
Speaker 2: to me like you've had because you're saying, look, yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm hearing that you know, reality is reality.
Speaker 1: You never realized.
Speaker 2: Yeah that I'm very happy to hear that. So going
Speaker 2: back to to other things that you said, because I
Speaker 2: think I think it might help for me to clarify
Speaker 2: but you a little bit because I happen to be
Speaker 2: within the address network, so and I know what they're
Speaker 2: doing and how they're doing things.
Speaker 1: So what's up.
Speaker 2: This is where I wish that some of the groups
Speaker 2: that you talked about here, actually not some, almost each
Speaker 2: single one of them would have been great that you know,
Speaker 2: you had a call with them, maybe like you're having
Speaker 2: with me right now. Really, I think there's a misunderstanding
Speaker 2: on why the stand by some of these groups are taking.
Speaker 2: And because for you, when you're seeing these activists, you know,
Speaker 2: doing what they're doing, you're saying, yeah, they're voicing their
Speaker 2: disagreement with whatever it is that the voice of a disagreement,
Speaker 2: they're voicing themself, they're the act. They're doing free speech,
Speaker 2: so you're saying they're doing free speech. And where people
Speaker 2: like the folks, multiple folks in the ADLAS network, you
Speaker 2: know network, would say is we are we have never
Speaker 2: been against people, you know, doing free speech. As a
Speaker 2: matter of fact, free speech is definitely one of the
Speaker 2: pillars of one of the pillars that we defend. In
Speaker 2: this case. I think the discrepancy in understanding is in
Speaker 2: you're seeing free speech being squelched, and they would say
Speaker 2: to you, we hear them complaining about something, but we
Speaker 2: also are property right type of people. You don't get
Speaker 2: to go and throw tomato soup at a painting, which
Speaker 2: is a property somewhere that's not okay, And it's not
Speaker 2: because maybe at some time it was okay, maybe for
Speaker 2: culture or whatever. Us we have always been the people
Speaker 2: who say we art plass of what culture thinks is acceptable.
Speaker 2: Property rights means property rights. So being complain all you want,
Speaker 2: walk in the streets with big signs everywhere you want,
Speaker 2: stream as loud as you want, do whatever you want,
Speaker 2: but do not touch or deface or destroy property. So
Speaker 2: that's the and this is in line, very clear line
Speaker 2: of our principles. Property rights is important. And anyone who
Speaker 2: is serious about entrepreneurship also will tell you that property
Speaker 2: rights is important. When I told you earlier that part
Speaker 2: of the entrepreneurs tool kid is clear and transferable property rights.
Speaker 2: So the concept of property rights is key to us.
Speaker 2: And you can have spree speech. So if all of
Speaker 2: these people we're doing what they're doing without touching somebody's property,
Speaker 2: you would never hear us have an issue with that.
Speaker 2: But the moment we accept doing something to somebody's property
Speaker 2: because we don't like what they stand for or we
Speaker 2: don't like what they do, and you can imagine the
Speaker 2: can of worms that gets open, And I think many
Speaker 2: people don't think about that really about the can of worm.
Speaker 2: We're allowing if you have a right to mess with
Speaker 2: somebody's property, whoever public are private, just because you don't
Speaker 2: happen to like, you know, what this place or the
Speaker 2: people behind it stand for, then it's open door. It's
Speaker 2: open door, and you're not going to be able to
Speaker 2: close these things. So for us, and I think if
Speaker 2: you had talked to the organization, probably you guys would
Speaker 2: have talked and you would have understood that we are
Speaker 2: still very much, very much it's one of our pillars
Speaker 2: defenders of free speech. And I think we have friend
Speaker 2: of briefs even when it moves not the cool thing
Speaker 2: to do, but we separate free speech from property. So
Speaker 2: please go ahead and complain on you want, go ahead
Speaker 2: and protect one you want, but please, property rights exist
Speaker 2: and we need to defend it at all costs. It's
Speaker 2: not because you don't like what any stands for. But
Speaker 2: you have a right to go and tag Amy's home,
Speaker 2: or you have a right to throw something at Amy's window,
Speaker 2: or you know, throw tomato soup at her child stroller
Speaker 2: or something like that. If we start to accept that,
Speaker 2: because supposedly what they're defending seems to be what I
Speaker 2: agree with and I think it's the right moral thing
Speaker 2: to do. Then who then gets to decide what's more
Speaker 2: what's not moral?
Speaker 8: Right?
Speaker 2: So everything it's just right to go and destroy everything everywhere.
Speaker 2: So I think if you a little bit of time
Speaker 2: with us, that's kind of what you would find. So
Speaker 2: that's on the freesation, that's on these protesters and the
Speaker 2: reason why we're having an issue and we're telling the world.
Speaker 2: We were saying to people who were saying, oh, today,
Speaker 2: maybe because we're defending what you think is cool to defend,
Speaker 2: you then close your eyes on all the things they're doing.
Speaker 2: But it's technically not okay. So but we're staying there
Speaker 2: and we're basically the visual on saying, be careful, you guys.
Speaker 2: If we're going to accept this in the name of
Speaker 2: all the ideas we defend, is something we agree with,
Speaker 2: then watch out for when they come, when people come
Speaker 2: to defend things that you don't really agree with. So anyway,
Speaker 2: so we're to kind of keep an eye on things
Speaker 2: like that and remind everybody, I don't care if you
Speaker 2: like what you're doing or not like what you're doing.
Speaker 2: The morning is be careful of what people are doing.
Speaker 2: Because tomorrow it could be against you. And I'm very
Speaker 2: proud that people like Atlas and the people in our
Speaker 2: network are out there watching and not being dragged into
Speaker 2: these political battles or into these cultural battles that actually
Speaker 2: fluctuate and go all over the place. So we have
Speaker 2: princip possible stands no matter what. So that's what they
Speaker 2: would probably say to you. And I'm sure that given
Speaker 2: what I've heard you, Amy, and how the conversation we're
Speaker 2: able to have really, you know, I haven't feeling that
Speaker 2: you guys, but we understand each other. And when you
Speaker 2: talk about you know, these world companies, the deals that
Speaker 2: they're making, it's not free market. Look, that's another thing.
Speaker 2: If you know anything about Atlas, you will learn that
Speaker 2: one of our big enemies is what we call chrony cats,
Speaker 2: chrony business and so, but chronism is happens when really,
Speaker 2: when you have monopolies or you many almost everyone else
Speaker 2: has been kept out or the people that you're negotiating
Speaker 2: with really don't have the same you know, what do
Speaker 2: you call in the same weight, and then you can
Speaker 2: just get to them whatever you want. That's so some
Speaker 2: of it is due to chrony capitalism and again, it
Speaker 2: is part of our principles. We are anti chrony. We
Speaker 2: will fight monopolies anytime receive them. We don't agree with
Speaker 2: things like that. Now I go back to see you know,
Speaker 2: someone like me Amy, I used to be this wy too.
Speaker 2: It used to be like if only we forced people
Speaker 2: that they have to do the contract this way or
Speaker 2: do it that way, otherwise they can't be there. You
Speaker 2: know what would happen if a business does not see
Speaker 2: if something does not work for a business somewhere, it's
Speaker 2: simply just not going to do it. And it's not
Speaker 2: because we're going to force an oil company or a
Speaker 2: company or anybody. We do have a right being if
Speaker 2: the situation allows them to get it with a bit
Speaker 2: as much as they might get a win with. You know,
Speaker 2: people are greedy, and this is not when I say
Speaker 2: this not a problem of capitalism, because people are gonna
Speaker 2: be like, yes, the capitalism is the greedy system. No,
Speaker 2: humans are greedy. We and as with everything, you will
Speaker 2: have people who are honest, people who are dishonest. You're
Speaker 2: gonna have people who are fair, people who are fair,
Speaker 2: people who are just like I'm gonna take as much
Speaker 2: as I can and I don't care what people say.
Speaker 2: If I can do it, I'll do it. And others
Speaker 2: are gonna be like even if no one is watching,
Speaker 2: I don't want to take more than what I have
Speaker 2: and I believe in fairness no matter what. And with
Speaker 2: business people, you have the same thing going on, same thing.
Speaker 2: So here my my argument goes back until unless African
Speaker 2: nations are no longer poor mm hmm, it will have
Speaker 2: this type of deals. Because you know, I'm like you two.
Speaker 2: I will say, deals happening right there, and there's absolutely
Speaker 2: nothing I can do with it. So am I gonna
Speaker 2: go and start picketing and saying, yeah, force field old
Speaker 2: companies to do a vison to do that. That's not
Speaker 2: where I'm gonna spend my time. That's not gonna change anything.
Speaker 2: But what I think is gonna change something is if
Speaker 2: we and it is our entrepreneurs and then the prosperity.
Speaker 2: With that prosperity, people are gonna start to notice us,
Speaker 2: respect us, and we're gonna how We're going to start
Speaker 2: to have a say in how our stuff is sold,
Speaker 2: sold whom it's sold to, all of us stuff that's
Speaker 2: going to start to happen. So for me, I made
Speaker 2: a calculation a long time ago, and that's where I felt.
Speaker 2: So when you said, oh, atleasts is being hypocritical, or
Speaker 2: of a network is being hypocritical because they're supporting and
Speaker 2: you know companies that are doing everything but the free market.
Speaker 2: Every time you say something like that to yourself about Atlas,
Speaker 2: go in and again, because you'll find exactly that we
Speaker 2: have not renounced our principles. Free markets is key to us.
Speaker 2: And again, like I said, we stand for free markets
Speaker 2: when it is popular, and we stand with from markets
Speaker 2: when it is not popular. And another thing about us
Speaker 2: at last network and the reason why I'm involved with
Speaker 2: plan any I think that you would say it's a
Speaker 2: good thing to work on putting women property rights in
Speaker 2: the Constitution of Rundi when it was not before, meaning
Speaker 2: women did not have a right to property or to
Speaker 2: even property that was in their family before our partners
Speaker 2: addless partner. When you said almost six hundred partners, one
Speaker 2: of those six partners, that's what they have been working
Speaker 2: on and they managed to get that to happen. I
Speaker 2: would say it's a good thing. Right another thing one
Speaker 2: of us, all six hundred address partners, but usually it's
Speaker 2: more than one it's multiple people working in different things.
Speaker 2: Where in South Sudan. Yet the right to property rights,
Speaker 2: the access to property rights, you know, right with the
Speaker 2: property rights of women is in the constitution, yet it
Speaker 2: was not being upheld in real life. What our partners
Speaker 2: came to us for, what the fun thing went to
Speaker 2: them for, was to actually work with all the stakeholders
Speaker 2: in this part of South Sudan. We're talking about the judges,
Speaker 2: we're talking about the police people, we're talking about the husbands,
Speaker 2: we're talking about all the stakeholders, women themselves, telling them, ladies,
Speaker 2: these are your rights. So all of a sudden, now
Speaker 2: you have this right. But was in the law, but
Speaker 2: the culture did not follow the law. It was not
Speaker 2: one part the culture law. And so here theture it
Speaker 2: both of them matched, and now women know their rights
Speaker 2: and they also are having their rights upheld in the
Speaker 2: court of law and also in their communities. That's a
Speaker 2: good thing. That's where we spend the money. Also in
Speaker 2: what do you call it in Sri Lanka. Our partners there,
Speaker 2: what they have been working on is some of the
Speaker 2: many things that they work on. One of them had
Speaker 2: to deal with access to a personal hygiene product for
Speaker 2: women we're talking about and things like that. As it
Speaker 2: turned out, there was an outrageously high tax put on
Speaker 2: those products, so much at the final cost was almost
Speaker 2: out of reach for the everyday Sri Lankan moment. And
Speaker 2: so they've worked on those reforms to take down those
Speaker 2: you know, those taxes, so that the end product would
Speaker 2: become affordable for everybody. So here, my angie or friends
Speaker 2: would say, we don't have tamponds, let's ship them three tampons,
Speaker 2: And someone like me, we're saying, we don't want to
Speaker 2: have to rely on your free stuff for the rest
Speaker 2: of our lives. So what are we going to do?
Speaker 2: What's a sustainable way here? Yeah, the sustainable way is
Speaker 2: find out what the problem is and something about it.
Speaker 2: And that's what our partners did. This is Atlas. This
Speaker 2: is the organization and the members and the partners. I
Speaker 2: love so much everybody, but I have talked to there.
Speaker 2: I haven't talked to all the six partners but very
Speaker 2: but I know there, and I've been working with such
Speaker 2: amazing decent people who truly put themselves in the line
Speaker 2: in the most honorable way. And putting themselves in the
Speaker 2: line for these people is not about going and destroying
Speaker 2: somebody's property or throwing tomato at some painting and stuff
Speaker 2: like that. They're not doing that. They're doing the real
Speaker 2: hard work. So I see a piece like BS, I'm like,
Speaker 2: could you guys talk to us? And Amy. I will
Speaker 2: end this by saying, please, if you would want to
Speaker 2: come and be my guest. We have our annual gala
Speaker 2: every November. It is happening in mid November. It's New
Speaker 2: York City, and you will get to see these people,
Speaker 2: talk to them. You will hear because that year, during
Speaker 2: that time, we'll celebrate our best freedom fighters. We are
Speaker 2: supporting the people who are fighting for the freedom, for
Speaker 2: their freedoms, for the freedom to speak, for the freedom
Speaker 2: to build the business.
Speaker 1: Can I just say one more thing. I know we're
Speaker 1: getting really close to the time, but I just want
Speaker 1: to just say a couple of things. One, you know, look,
Speaker 1: criticizing something a couple of or three or six or
Speaker 1: whatever entities within a large network are doing is not,
Speaker 1: by any stretch saying that it's all bad and they're
Speaker 1: not doing any good. I know that there are good
Speaker 1: things being done as well. And on the systemic change thing,
Speaker 1: I mean, I would love to see something like the
Speaker 1: Atlas network getting involved in looking at you know, the
Speaker 1: way that bilateral trade agreements, for example, lock countries into
Speaker 1: bad contracts. That's like a big systemic thing.
Speaker 3: You are.
Speaker 1: That's amazing.
Speaker 4: You are.
Speaker 2: You have people who are doing working on all of
Speaker 2: that stuff. We are again where you see munism your out.
Speaker 1: Fighting popping in here again to say that I did
Speaker 1: look for examples of Atlas getting involved in reforming the
Speaker 1: investor state dispute system. This is the mechanism that most
Speaker 1: bilateral trade agreements and bilateral investment agreements provide for companies
Speaker 1: to effectively sue governments for any changes that impact their business.
Speaker 1: It's been used a lot to push back on human
Speaker 1: rights and environmental legislation. I couldn't find any examples of
Speaker 1: Atlas folks working on this issue, so I asked Magott
Speaker 1: to send me stuff or recommend someone that's working on it.
Speaker 1: I haven't heard back yet, but she's super busy, so
Speaker 1: I'm still hoping to hear very much, hoping that it's
Speaker 1: true that they are working to reform this.
Speaker 2: So that's my point. You know, mister big oil company
Speaker 2: could come and say, oh, we're giving you money to
Speaker 2: do we're giving your money because we're at a split.
Speaker 2: What we're going to do the work. The work we
Speaker 2: do is work we do, and there is all the
Speaker 2: people I told you about. That's where the money goes to.
Speaker 2: We're supporting these initiatives. So for me, it's just we
Speaker 2: are addressing all of that. If that's something that you
Speaker 2: pet interested in, I can find some of the friends
Speaker 2: on this and also even on the climate. You know,
Speaker 2: right now we have this coalition of people who are
Speaker 2: trying to think about, you know, some of the best
Speaker 2: ways to address you know, because yeah, people are going
Speaker 2: to say, look, is it always a better idea to
Speaker 2: be a plumate friendly? Absolutely, And I think you will
Speaker 2: say people like that among us who say that it's
Speaker 2: if we can do better, let's do better, which we
Speaker 2: always have a responsibility to do better. So is there
Speaker 2: a better way for the environment? Is there better ways
Speaker 2: for human rights? Is a better way for this?
Speaker 5: For that?
Speaker 2: Yes? There is, let's find let's find out. So that's
Speaker 2: our commitment. But Amy, it seems to me like you
Speaker 2: know the fact that you're the only one who decided
Speaker 2: to speak with me when they asked the other free
Speaker 2: You're the only one and then you come here and
Speaker 2: I'm not seeing you trying to score a point or
Speaker 2: anything like that. I really appreciate that. It tells me
Speaker 2: that you know. You also could agree with me that
Speaker 2: if you went went back and rewrite this piece, Amy,
Speaker 2: you can't with a straight face tell me that this
Speaker 2: was not a hit piece, meaning that this was not
Speaker 2: about you, not just focusing on or saying it's not
Speaker 2: even focusing. If it was stuff I was reading in
Speaker 2: here me who is inside the organization, I could see
Speaker 2: that I would be just like you two. I would say, Amy, look,
Speaker 2: not everybody's perfect. Yeah, we trade us blah blah blah. Listen,
Speaker 2: I would have trust, I would have and the day
Speaker 2: I see something tooth. But the point is this piece
Speaker 2: right here, I think is not representative off the reality.
Speaker 2: I think it was written in a very one sided way.
Speaker 2: But based on the conversation we had, it seems to
Speaker 2: me like you would be the type of person who says,
Speaker 2: you know what, my god, I heard it, and fine,
Speaker 2: but I've heard you so yeah, and by the way,
Speaker 2: I agree with you totally. I sooner appreciate you taking
Speaker 2: the time to talk to me.
Speaker 1: Well, actually, I do one thing that you know, makes
Speaker 1: people use the words like shadowy. I'm sorry, is the
Speaker 1: lack of transparency around funding. So, you know, I would
Speaker 1: like encourage think tanks in general, and I say that
Speaker 1: about the left leaning think tanks as well. I don't
Speaker 1: understand why these entities exist. The whole point is to
Speaker 1: shape public conversation and ultimately shape public policy, international negotiations,
Speaker 1: all that kind of stuff. I think it's good for
Speaker 1: people to know who's behind those things. And like I said,
Speaker 1: across the political spectrum, I don't have any love for
Speaker 1: the lefty NGOs either. The appreciate bad I appreciate that.
Speaker 1: I appreciate it.
Speaker 2: You just said, I appreciate it, and I would tell
Speaker 2: you that as anybody who's willing to get the record,
Speaker 2: we will put them on the record. You know, donors,
Speaker 2: but you know how sometimes in your sight, and I
Speaker 2: think the reason why that is is because people are
Speaker 2: sick entitled of being attacked. Quite frankly, I'm sure they
Speaker 2: get tired of being attacked. So maybe if we had
Speaker 2: more of the commitment to focus on the type of
Speaker 2: work that's being done, you know, or who gave what,
Speaker 2: maybe donors would be a little bit more you know,
Speaker 2: feeling free to put something out there. And also some
Speaker 2: people just even without even being worried about, you know,
Speaker 2: being attacked or whatever. Some people are just discreet. So
Speaker 2: but I think some people are decreed. But I think
Speaker 2: many people who are not putting their names out there.
Speaker 2: It might have to do with this polarization where you
Speaker 2: do if you don't. I sense in you somebody who
Speaker 2: wants to see a better world, and I want to
Speaker 2: see a better world. I think if we can agree
Speaker 2: on that and work from there, it might mean something different.
Speaker 2: So I would love to keep these conversations going. And
Speaker 2: if you want to talk to anybody on our side
Speaker 2: and find out all of that, please let me know.
Speaker 1: I would love to keep talking. I have like a
Speaker 1: lot more questions, and it's great that you're.
Speaker 2: Open to I'm very I'm very open totally. I thank you,
Speaker 2: Thank you, have a good rest of your day, you too,
Speaker 2: Bye bye.
Speaker 1: That's it for this time again, kind of a massive conversation.
Speaker 1: Very curious to hear your thoughts. Next week, I'm going
Speaker 1: to bring you another one of these, this time with
Speaker 1: someone who has a very different viewpoint on things. Rihanna
Speaker 1: gunn Right. She's a policy analyst, with the Roosevelt Institute.
Speaker 1: She was one of the original creators of the Green
Speaker 1: New Deal way back when, and she's been thinking a
Speaker 1: lot about how permitting reform and energy transition in the
Speaker 1: US is leaving out people of color. Come back for
Speaker 1: that conversation, Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time.