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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome back to Drill. I'm Amy Westervelt. A

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Speaker 1: little bit earlier this season, we ran an episode on

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Speaker 1: a global network of think tanks called the Atlas Network.

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Speaker 1: We did a print piece as well. A version of

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Speaker 1: that piece ran with The New Republic and a couple

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Speaker 1: of other outlets, and in that work we looked at

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Speaker 1: some of the ideas and tactics that seemed to be

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Speaker 1: spreading across the Atlas Network aimed at laying the groundwork

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Speaker 1: to criminalize certain types of environmental protest. I had actually

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Speaker 1: reached out to Atlas wanting to interview someone about the network,

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Speaker 1: and specifically wanting to talk to a woman named Maggott Wade,

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Speaker 1: who runs their Center for African Prosperity. I didn't hear

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Speaker 1: anything back, and to be honest, I kind of assumed

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Speaker 1: that they just didn't want to talk to me because

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Speaker 1: Atlas sort of had that reputation. So that was me

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Speaker 1: maybe being a little bit lazy. Anyway, after that story

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Speaker 1: came out, Wade was pretty upset about it, and she

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Speaker 1: took to Twitter and challenged me our reporter Jeff Dambicki,

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Speaker 1: a New Republic editor, Molly Taft, to a debate. I

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Speaker 1: let her know that actually I had really wanted to

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Speaker 1: talk to her for the story and had tried, so

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Speaker 1: I would love to schedule a time to talk and

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Speaker 1: talk we did. It was definitely a little debatey sometimes,

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Speaker 1: but also an interesting window into how certain ideas about

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Speaker 1: the climate movement are being shaped. We're going to get

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Speaker 1: back to our anti protest series soon, but in the meantime,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to be bringing you some bonus episodes featuring

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Speaker 1: what I've been calling messy conversations, sometimes with people I

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Speaker 1: don't necessarily agree with, sometimes with people I very much do.

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Speaker 1: First up, mcgott Wade, who heads up the Center for

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Speaker 1: African Prosperity for the ATLAS Network. This week she's at

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Speaker 1: a convening for a new group that brings together quite

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Speaker 1: a few different ATLAS member think tank folks. It's called

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Speaker 1: the Alliance for Responsible Citizenship. It's spearheaded by Jordan Peterson,

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Speaker 1: backed by several of the entities that funded the push

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Speaker 1: for Brexit, and includes not only folks like Magott and

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Speaker 1: Arthur Brooks, the former president of the American Enterprise Institute,

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Speaker 1: and the folks leading the State Financial Officers Foundation, a

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Speaker 1: group that's funded by a whole batch of Atlas network

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Speaker 1: think tanks like the Heartland Institute, the Heritage Foundation, and more,

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Speaker 1: but also a whole cast of folks from the climate

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Speaker 1: skeptic slash climate denial crowd. You've got GOP candidate Vivic Ramaswami,

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Speaker 1: who's been sort of the king of the anti ESG

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Speaker 1: or quote unquote woke capital conversations. You've got Michael Schellenberger,

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Speaker 1: author of Apocalypse Never. You've got Pure Lombourg, who pushes

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Speaker 1: a similar kind of approach to the Schollenberger, this idea

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Speaker 1: that sure climate change is happening, but it's not happening

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Speaker 1: fast enough to warrant extreme changes. You've got Alex Epstein,

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Speaker 1: the guy who authored the quote unquote Moral Case for

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Speaker 1: fossil fuels. This group, the Alliance for Responsible Citizenship or ARC,

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Speaker 1: was put on my radar by a tip a few

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Speaker 1: months ago. I shared that with Dismog, who's written some

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Speaker 1: really great and helpful profiles of both the organization and

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Speaker 1: some of the members in it, which I'll link to

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Speaker 1: in the show notes.

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Speaker 2: It's been interesting to see.

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Speaker 1: How they've evolved, how they've added different people, and what

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Speaker 1: sorts of things are getting discussed. What's particularly interesting to

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Speaker 1: me about ARC is that it's doing this thing that

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Speaker 1: happens a lot on the and not so much on

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Speaker 1: the left, which is bringing together lots of sort of

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Speaker 1: kauzleb under one tent. So you've got the anti climate people,

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Speaker 1: you've got the anti feminist people, you've got the anti

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Speaker 1: trans people. They're all meeting together to discuss the supposed

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Speaker 1: end of Western civilization as we know it. They're all

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Speaker 1: meeting together this week in London. So I thought it

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Speaker 1: would be a good time to bring you this conversation.

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Speaker 1: I hope you enjoy it, and please get in touch

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Speaker 1: with all the things you would have said in this conversation.

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Speaker 1: Knowing exactly what to say in the moment is not

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Speaker 1: always my strong suit, which you'll see here, because I

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Speaker 1: definitely took the liberty of cutting in to say some

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Speaker 1: things I wish I had thought of at the time. Anyhow,

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Speaker 1: all feedback and complaints welcome. It might even turn into

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Speaker 1: another messy conversation.

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Speaker 3: Enjoy Hello, Hi, my god, can you hear me?

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Speaker 2: Yes, I can hear you.

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Speaker 1: Awesome. I'm going to turn my video on to say hi,

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Speaker 1: but then I might turn it off just because I

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Speaker 1: live in a place with pretty spotty WiFi, no problem,

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Speaker 1: so you can see I'm a person. Hello.

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Speaker 4: Hi.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, so first of all for being here, you

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Speaker 2: appreciate that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So any I think first I'm going to start just

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Speaker 2: for the people who are going to be listening to this.

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Speaker 2: And it might have been how we got here. Maybe

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Speaker 2: I'm just gonna give everybody a background. So I think

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Speaker 2: it was not Friday of last week, but the Friday

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Speaker 2: of the previous week. I think it was. I got

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Speaker 2: a note from my team members over at Atlas and

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Speaker 2: they said, hey, mygadvis this article that came out on

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Speaker 2: the New Republic and see I'm really here. The title

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Speaker 2: it was called me to the Shadowy Global Network villain

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Speaker 2: fying climate protesters, And so the whole thing was pretty

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Speaker 2: much what I pulled a head piece and on me.

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Speaker 2: You give me a paragraph on there, and I'm gonna

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Speaker 2: ready for people. And it says Magat Wade, who heads

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Speaker 2: an internal Atlas project called the Center for African Prosperity,

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Speaker 2: frequently cites the Soto as an inspiration for her take

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Speaker 2: on Africa and climate change in multiple up ads over

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Speaker 2: the past few years, and in an interview of this

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Speaker 2: year with Canadian professor and the right wing figure had

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Speaker 2: Jordan Petersen. Wade, who was born in Senegal but moved

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Speaker 2: to Germany when she was seven, describes climate activists as

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Speaker 2: a new colonialist, arguing that climate action will keep Africans

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Speaker 2: poor and deprive them of access to energy. Wad often

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Speaker 2: depicts those who would deny the continent its current fossil

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Speaker 2: fo goom as out of touch, and regularly claims that

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Speaker 2: climate action will kill a billion Africans, all while refusing

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Speaker 2: to engage with the fact that African climate activists are

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Speaker 2: being arrested at an alarming rate. So that's the piece

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Speaker 2: that was written about me.

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Speaker 1: Well, so two things. One, I would clarify that the

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Speaker 1: piece was about you. As you said, there was you know,

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Speaker 1: one paragraph in a four thousand word piece, which was

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Speaker 1: not meant to give you short shrift. It's just there's like,

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Speaker 1: you know, nearly six hundred at Lists network think tanks

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Speaker 1: to get to and the thing that we were looking

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Speaker 1: at was how ideas spread within and throughout the Atlas network,

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Speaker 1: not you know, any particular think tanks work. But in

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Speaker 1: saying that also worth noting, actually the original piece is

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Speaker 1: more like six thousand words and includes a lot more

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Speaker 1: on your work and trying to look at different economic

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Speaker 1: studies and things like that, which is on our site

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Speaker 1: at drill Don Media, but New Republic trimmed out quite

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Speaker 1: a bit of the story, so I'm happy to send

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Speaker 1: you a link to that as well. And yeah, I

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Speaker 1: have actually a bunch of questions that I would love

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Speaker 1: to ask you about your work. And I submitted a

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Speaker 1: contact request through the Atlas network a couple of times

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Speaker 1: and didn't get anything back. But I was looking through

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Speaker 1: my in box this morning, and you speak typically to me,

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Speaker 1: to you and also to check various things with the

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Speaker 1: sort of Atleas network at quarters as well. But I

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Speaker 1: just saw in my inbox this morning that I got

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Speaker 1: bounced replies to that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, give me when I'm trying to reach out to

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Speaker 2: someone and then not getting back to me. I but

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Speaker 2: you when I first move into check do I even

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Speaker 2: have to write emath? But yeah, okay, it.

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Speaker 1: Was like in my you know, went to my proportions folder.

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Speaker 1: I agree, like I would have much preferred to speak

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Speaker 1: to you before the piece came out, and also like

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Speaker 1: not just for that piece, but I find this area

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Speaker 1: really interesting looking at the idea of how to address

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Speaker 1: energy poverty and climate change at the same time, how

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Speaker 1: to do that in an equitable way. All of those

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Speaker 1: things are big questions that I frankly agree with a

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Speaker 1: lot of your take on the failures of the climate

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Speaker 1: movement to do that. So I actually think you might

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Speaker 1: be surprised at how much I agree with someone you say.

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Speaker 2: I am very happy to hear, but I agree with

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Speaker 2: my takes, and it will be good to compare notes

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Speaker 2: and within a PI pare notes. So first of all,

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Speaker 2: it's good. But we basically settled this incident about you

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Speaker 2: having reached out to me, because when someone would starting

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Speaker 2: to me, I talked to them. So I'm glad we

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Speaker 2: clorified that. But I nevert news from you. But you

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Speaker 2: wanted to speak to me, So that's number one. And

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Speaker 2: then I'm very glad to hear that you share some

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Speaker 2: of my views. And when you're talking about religiships between

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Speaker 2: climate change and Africa and all of that at the links,

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Speaker 2: I really wish that this particle had gotten into it. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: because I'm going to tell you where I'm coming from.

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Speaker 2: So when I go back and I read this piece,

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Speaker 2: mcgat way, your head in an international Atlas project, so

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Speaker 2: that's fine. Frequently cites the Soto as an inspiration. The

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Speaker 2: inspiration I cite is always, for the most part, George A.

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Speaker 2: Ganaghan economist, who really has put his finger as to

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Speaker 2: why thereas in Africa, despite its riches and the riches

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Speaker 2: of Africa, are its people, are it's land despite all

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Speaker 2: of that being rich in all of that, we still

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Speaker 2: to be stayed, remain sadly in such a wrong way,

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Speaker 2: still the most poor continent in this world. And I'm

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Speaker 2: supposed to be bad as an African, and I'm not

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Speaker 2: so when you say that I frequently cites you or

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Speaker 2: the other three people, because by the way, I manad

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Speaker 2: you for your courage to come here and speak with me,

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Speaker 2: because I would have liked to have a courtesy from

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Speaker 2: the other three people who have been involved in this piece.

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Speaker 2: But anyway, so whoever here did there investigation and says

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Speaker 2: that I frequently cited Dsto I would like so big

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Speaker 2: to put in my face when I cite this, usually

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Speaker 2: Georgia or who is who I cite, and a few

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Speaker 2: times I cite the Soto, whom I also have a

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Speaker 2: lot of respect for. Has to do for I have

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Speaker 2: to do with his work related to the maining cause

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Speaker 2: as to why my continent is poor because what Hernando

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Speaker 2: de Soto did for those who don't know her none

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Speaker 2: of the Soto is a Parisian economist and what he

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Speaker 2: has done, him too, like me, has been wondering why

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Speaker 2: are people poor? Because his negative pole is a poorer

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Speaker 2: nation as well, and he said I'm going ready to

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Speaker 2: find out what's going on and him a long. People

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Speaker 2: like Hyak because I saw you citing Hyak. You see

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Speaker 2: these things is setting a lot of great people, but

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Speaker 2: really not even understanding why the rest of the world

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Speaker 2: respects these people. I don't respect Hyak because supposedly he

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Speaker 2: claims that all the ills of society are caused by socialism.

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Speaker 2: As you put in the piece, I really don't like

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Speaker 2: socialism the philosophy of what socialism and not what the

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Speaker 2: young people today think what socialism is. And that might

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Speaker 2: be a different conversation for a different time, like when

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Speaker 2: you are Hied. The reason why people like me really

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Speaker 2: appreciate Hyad is because of how Hyat really is one

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Speaker 2: of the few and I would say probably one of

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Speaker 2: the first economists whoever started looking in the direction of

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Speaker 2: the entrepreneurs as the solution and as the main creators

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Speaker 2: of prosperity. All the other economists are out there doing

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Speaker 2: some math, model calculations, all types of things that are

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Speaker 2: completely removed from the rest of the world. And multiport

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Speaker 2: very important to tail. The reason why some of us

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Speaker 2: are really someone like me enjoys Hyak, and I think

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Speaker 2: he has contributed a lot to the field of economics

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Speaker 2: is because of the precise insight but he had about

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Speaker 2: the entrepreneur. And so going back to the Soto, Hyak

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Speaker 2: has seen that the entrepreneurs have a role to play

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Speaker 2: in fighting poverty, not NGOs, and that's another thing. So, yeah,

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Speaker 2: you know what the solo did is it an experiment.

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Speaker 2: He established himself in a little bit of an artskirts

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Speaker 2: of leading a proof and he tried to start a

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Speaker 2: little business, a little business where they were sewing feelings

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Speaker 2: like really moment pop. He was thinking when happened to

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Speaker 2: people like my gad, But because I have a small

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Speaker 2: medium sized enterprise in Africa, how does it work for

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Speaker 2: us when we're trying to build a business. What's going on?

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Speaker 2: What's happening to us? And so he positioned himself as

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Speaker 2: a noble body. And then he went through the process

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Speaker 2: to legally register the business. He found that it took forever,

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Speaker 2: we're talking here, almost a two thirds of the year.

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Speaker 2: The amount of money it cost in fees, it was

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Speaker 2: pretty much close to somebody's salary. So he's found that

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Speaker 2: it was impossible for people like that to start a business. Impossible.

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Speaker 2: And so he went on to write this book called

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Speaker 2: The Mystery of Capital and explaining all of that. And

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Speaker 2: so the times when you would hear someone like me

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Speaker 2: sighting the Sodo, it has to do with that, not

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Speaker 2: what you're saying here and what your piece is saying

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Speaker 2: about the Soto. It was trying to make the Sodo

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Speaker 2: look very bad here, I'm going to find him. Where

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Speaker 2: is the Sodo when you're saying, but de Sodo basically

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Speaker 2: went and he told the people in the Amazon forest.

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Speaker 1: I'm just you know, summarizing when you say that.

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Speaker 2: He went there and he told the indigenous people. You know,

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Speaker 2: if we give you a piece of the action, it's

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Speaker 2: a way to muzzle them up. And I'm just like saying, Amy,

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Speaker 2: have you spent time in African nations and which ones

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Speaker 2: if you have?

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Speaker 1: I have not spent much time in Africa. I've spent

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Speaker 1: a lot of time in Latin America and I lived

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Speaker 1: in Latin America, so I'm very familiar with how things

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Speaker 1: work in the soda. And Okay, can I just say

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Speaker 1: speak now, because I you know, you've said a lot

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Speaker 1: of things. It'd be good to respond to you. So

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Speaker 1: I don't think there's anything in there that says, you know,

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Speaker 1: this terrible man de Soto. It just says what he's

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Speaker 1: argued for, which is not inaccurate. It is true that

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Speaker 1: what he has argued for is for property rights and

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Speaker 1: a profit share for Indigenous.

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Speaker 2: People, and what's wrong with that and what's wrong with side?

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Speaker 1: I don't know anything wrong with that.

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Speaker 2: It's fine here.

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Speaker 1: I would appreciate, yeah, being able to finish my sentence.

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Speaker 1: Thank you. So he says that, you know, he argues

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Speaker 1: that's the fix for indigenous protests, and in terms of

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Speaker 1: it being a strategy to shut down protest, that's very

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Speaker 1: explicitly laid out on the ILD website. They have a

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Speaker 1: whole site that's called that. I think it's the Avatar

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Speaker 1: miss theory or something along those lines, and it very

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Speaker 1: explicitly says, you know, for people that are concerned about

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Speaker 1: the impact that indigenous protest is having on business and development.

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Speaker 1: We believe that this is the solve for that and

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Speaker 1: kind of lays out how.

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Speaker 2: To do it.

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Speaker 1: So all we were trying to show in the piece

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Speaker 1: was how this idea kind of starts with de Soto

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Speaker 1: and spreads to multiple other atlas think tanks, which I

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Speaker 1: don't think is inaccurate. You know, it is fairly easy

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Speaker 1: to follow, and whether or not that's a good or

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Speaker 1: bad thing is not something that I or I think

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Speaker 1: any of my colleagues ever say. In the piece, it's like, look,

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Speaker 1: this is happening. It's not very well publicized that it's happening,

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Speaker 1: and it's a strategy.

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Speaker 2: A mean but title a few piece says it all.

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Speaker 2: But this shadowy global network will deifying climate protesters. And

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Speaker 2: this is the long piece. So I will really recommend

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Speaker 2: to everybody to go back and read it. But the

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Speaker 2: way this paragraph, anybody who would read this paragraph in

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Speaker 2: the context also of the rest of the piece, and

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Speaker 2: also the way this paragraph was written, you're making a

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Speaker 2: commentary here, And with that, I'm going to move on,

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Speaker 2: because there's a reason why I really wanted to have

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Speaker 2: you on here. So the website, So I will ask

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Speaker 2: people to go out and read this piece and then

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Speaker 2: you let me know your opinion. But this whole idea

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Speaker 2: of a DeSoto is an anti climate person, I think

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Speaker 2: that's totally misguided. But I digress.

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Speaker 1: So next, I think that's actually that's interesting. So how

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Speaker 1: did you kind of frame Desoto's approach on on time action.

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Speaker 2: So the bigger talk I want to have is bet

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Speaker 2: is bigger, and it's bigger and better than de Soto. So, okay,

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Speaker 2: if you hear me Olgible here exactly where it is

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Speaker 2: that I'm going with all of us so far.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, So I'm just going to jump in here

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Speaker 1: for a minute to remind folks of why we were

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Speaker 1: touching on DeSoto in both the written piece and the

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Speaker 1: podcast episode about Atlas. It's because he really seems to

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Speaker 1: be the person who began advocating pretty early on for

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Speaker 1: a strategy that would later be called redwashing, and it's

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Speaker 1: a strategy that we see other ATLAS think tanks, particularly

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Speaker 1: the American Enterprise Institute in the US and the McDonald

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Speaker 1: Laurier Institute in Canada, starting to deploy over the years,

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Speaker 1: often using the same rhetoric and arguments as de Soto.

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Speaker 1: Here's a snippet from our episode on Atlas, just to

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Speaker 1: jog your memory. One of the very first think tanks

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Speaker 1: created by this newly formed Atlas Network was the Institute

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Speaker 1: for Liberty and Democracy in Peru. It was started the

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Speaker 1: same year the Atlas Network started, in nineteen eighty one,

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Speaker 1: and its founder was a well known economist. De DeSoto

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Speaker 1: came up with a theory that wound up reverberating throughout

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Speaker 1: the Atlas Network universe.

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Speaker 2: It's a really good.

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Speaker 1: Example of just how much these think tanks talk to

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Speaker 1: each other and how ideas spread. Masna Nusavata here he

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Speaker 1: is giving a TED talk in twenty eleven explaining his

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Speaker 1: strategy for dealing with indigenous environmental activism.

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Speaker 5: Well internationalists I savings Inna No Usa FIST.

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Speaker 1: He says, part of the problem is they don't have

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Speaker 1: titles to property. And if you ask why, certain international

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Speaker 1: organizations and environmental groups will say, well, you know, indigenous

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Speaker 1: people don't want to be landowners. They wander around the forest.

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Speaker 1: But when he went there with his colleagues, he saw

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Speaker 1: immense poverty. Desta started to think about this whole situation

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Speaker 1: a lot more because of a bloody standoff between indigenous

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Speaker 1: land defenders and police in Peru.

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Speaker 6: Dozens of people are estimated to have been killed in

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Speaker 6: clashes between police and indigenous activists protesting oil and mining

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Speaker 6: projects in the northern Peruvian Amazonian province of Bagua.

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Speaker 1: Indigenous leaders were protesting the encroachment on their land by

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Speaker 1: various interests, including timber mining and oil and gas.

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Speaker 6: I Witness accounts indicate the police fired live ammunition and

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Speaker 6: tear gas into the crowd. Alberto Pizango, the leader of

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Speaker 6: the national indigenous organization, the Peruvian Jungle Into Ethnic Development

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Speaker 6: Association or EDISSEP, accused the government of President Alan Garcia

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Speaker 6: of ordering the quote genocide of the indigenous communities.

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Speaker 2: Yokiro, our brothers are cornered. I want to put the

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Speaker 2: responsibility on the government.

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Speaker 4: We are going to put the responsibility on Alan Garcia's.

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Speaker 2: Government, the Alan Garcia for ordering.

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Speaker 1: As Jena said, DeSoto argues that the solution to all

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Speaker 1: this is just to cut indigenous groups in on the profits,

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Speaker 1: to give them property rights and a share of resource

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Speaker 1: and mineral rights, so that they will stop protesting for

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Speaker 1: control over their land. This idea shows up again in

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Speaker 1: Canada a couple of years later, when the McDonald Laurier Institute,

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Speaker 1: another Atlas Network think tank and a partner of the

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Speaker 1: Fraser Institute, starts to put out a bunch of papers

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Speaker 1: in the week of Indigenous led protests. There, go back

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Speaker 1: and listen to the rest of that episode if you

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Speaker 1: haven't heard it yet. We're going to take a quick

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Speaker 1: freak here and get back to my conversation with the

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Speaker 1: Godwave and stay with us.

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Speaker 2: So earlier when we started, you said that you don't

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Speaker 2: actually disagree with a lot of things that I say

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Speaker 2: about the climate. For anybody that knows a little bit

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Speaker 2: of my work on all of this, my whole thing,

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Speaker 2: my full purpose in this world. The hill I will

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Speaker 2: die on is prosperity for Africans and I want that

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Speaker 2: in my left mm hmm. And for prosperity to be built.

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Speaker 2: There is only one way only prosperity can be built.

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Speaker 2: Prosperity is built by entrepreneurs. Entrepreneurs need what we call

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Speaker 2: the tool kit on the endrepreneurs in there, primarily the

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Speaker 2: way you sum up everything that they need. This concept

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Speaker 2: of floor of law, clear and transferable property right, all

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Speaker 2: of them is very important for the entrepreneur to be

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Speaker 2: able to enterprise economies is also call it economic freedom.

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Speaker 2: You have the best way to call it is just

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Speaker 2: is an individual, especially if you're a nobody individual somewhere,

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Speaker 2: can you or not start and run a business easily?

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Speaker 2: And when it comes to that, you have multiple you know,

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Speaker 2: economic indexes that measure that very simple, you know situations.

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Speaker 2: And one of them was Doing Business of the Doing

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Speaker 2: Business Index of the World Bank. And then you have

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Speaker 2: another one of the Economic Freedom Index of Friger Institute.

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Speaker 2: Another guy that you guys make out to sound like

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Speaker 2: these conspirationists out there, you know, trying to describe the

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Speaker 2: world with the right way ideas. So there again these

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Speaker 2: people that you demonize, this this seems to demonize people

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Speaker 2: like me, actually happen to love. I love the Friger

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Speaker 2: Institute insofar as they focus on economic freedom and really

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Speaker 2: pointing there too, because when it comes to economic freedom,

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Speaker 2: how easy or hard it is for anyone anywhere in

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Speaker 2: the world to start and run a business. It turns out,

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Speaker 2: but the index is showing exactly when I, as a

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Speaker 2: business entrepreneur doing business both in Africa and in the US,

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Speaker 2: I have seen At first, I thought it was just

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Speaker 2: an anecdote. At first, I thought, oh, you know, it

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Speaker 2: is normal. We're poor, so it's hard to do business

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Speaker 2: back home, and here they're rich, it's needy to do business.

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Speaker 2: And instead I came to realize we are poor nations

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Speaker 2: of poor because they make it hard for the wealth

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Speaker 2: creatives to create, and rich nations are prospers because they

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Speaker 2: make it easy for wealth creatives to create. So the

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Speaker 2: minute I understood that, my whole life changed, so many

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Speaker 2: things started to make sense and I started just to

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Speaker 2: follow that path. And so when you look there, you

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Speaker 2: realize that it is harder for almost anyone in suburban

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Speaker 2: Africa to do business than this for anyone in Scandainaia.

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Speaker 2: And that fact is very important because if we want

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Speaker 2: to fix the problem, and I would want so, this

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Speaker 2: is actually is a question I'm going to have for you.

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Speaker 2: If you're serious about building prosperity in Africa, then we

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Speaker 2: have to be serious about this issue around the lack

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Speaker 2: of economic freedom. So Frasier Institute measures things like that

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Speaker 2: for doing business, measures things like that. Atlas Network has

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Speaker 2: been working with people to kind of improve this situation.

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Speaker 2: So we need economic freedom to build prosperity. Our entrepreneurs

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Speaker 2: need that. And you know what else, entrepreneurs need access

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Speaker 2: to reliable and affordable energy source. This is actually when

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Speaker 2: I got into the fight. This is what and when

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Speaker 2: I got into the fight, into the climate action fight,

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Speaker 2: because when you have these anti fosteril fuel Zalites who

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Speaker 2: are sitting halfware across the world in very comfortable places,

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Speaker 2: telling me an African what is it but I get

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Speaker 2: to do or not do in my continent when we

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Speaker 2: happen to still be the poorest region in the world

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Speaker 2: and people are still dying. I said, I have a problem.

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Speaker 2: So Amy, do you believe that? Do you support prosperity

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Speaker 2: for actors even it means this is a very I

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Speaker 2: do so.

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Speaker 1: Actually, yes I do.

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Speaker 2: This is pause. I just want to shar about it

435
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:14,440
Speaker 2: against Do you, yes, prospiity for Africa even if it

436
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:17,480
Speaker 2: means use a fossil fuels, Yes, I do so.

437
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 1: This is why I was happy to talk to you,

438
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:22,400
Speaker 1: because I was like, I feel like this whole thing

439
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 1: is getting it's getting really polarized in a way that's

440
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 1: just not helpful. I was just in a room full

441
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 1: of people this past week, Global North people saying, look,

442
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 1: the solution is to turn off fossil fuels, that's it,

443
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:39,440
Speaker 1: And then someone from India and another person from Africa saying, well,

444
00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 1: you guys don't understand that we're still dealing with X

445
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:46,000
Speaker 1: y Z and how do we deal with that without

446
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:48,800
Speaker 1: fossil fuels. Right, to be honest, I think that the

447
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 1: solution is that the global Norse transitions quickly off of

448
00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:57,879
Speaker 1: fossil fuels while the Global South continues to develop. When

449
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 1: I hear people say we just energy poverty first, I'm like, well, yeah,

450
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:06,000
Speaker 1: I agree. I think we should solve energy poverty. I

451
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:07,959
Speaker 1: don't think it's an either or. I think they can

452
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:10,880
Speaker 1: happen at the same time. And I think that rich

453
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:14,440
Speaker 1: countries in the Global North have a much bigger obligation

454
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:18,960
Speaker 1: to do what they can to reduce emissions and decarbonize

455
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:25,240
Speaker 1: as quickly as possible. Unfortunately, that's not happening, and neither

456
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:28,920
Speaker 1: are the Global North companies that are developing oil and

457
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 1: gas resources in Africa doing anything at all about energy poverty.

458
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 1: So that's the piece where I'm like, Okay, yes, I agree.

459
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 1: But the oil and gas that's being developed in Africa

460
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:43,200
Speaker 1: right now, more than half of it is exported to

461
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 1: Europe and Asia. The African countries that have those resources

462
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:52,640
Speaker 1: have terrible contracts that lock them into not getting anywhere

463
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,640
Speaker 1: near what they should be getting for those resources. None

464
00:27:55,640 --> 00:28:00,520
Speaker 1: of those contracts require distribution locally. So like the example,

465
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:04,480
Speaker 1: this is Nigeria, that's the oldest and largest fossil fuel

466
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 1: industry on the continent of Africa, right last in the

467
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:13,080
Speaker 1: world on energy access. So when I see people say, oh,

468
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 1: fossil fuel development equals a solved to energy poverty, where's

469
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,520
Speaker 1: the proof of that. It hasn't happened on the continent

470
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 1: of Africa. It hasn't even happened in the United States,

471
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:26,160
Speaker 1: which is like the birthplace of the industry. So that's

472
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 1: where I'm like, Okay, if we're going to talk about

473
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 1: energy poverty, let's talk about actually solving it, and also

474
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:34,880
Speaker 1: the fact that doing so and solving for climate which

475
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 1: will also impact people in Africa and Latin America first

476
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 1: and worst. Why can't we do both together in a

477
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 1: way that actually like solves both problems.

478
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:50,040
Speaker 2: So can I respond not because I'm trying? Yeah, yeah,

479
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,800
Speaker 2: please head flop. So this is great, This is great,

480
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,600
Speaker 2: and I really wish that pieces like this. So when

481
00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 2: you say I'm so, I find it's so sad and

482
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 2: so bad that the things had become so polarized. I'm sorry,

483
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 2: but the piece like this that's not help with the polarization.

484
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:08,400
Speaker 2: It just doesn't. This piece would have been so much

485
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 2: more interesting, Amy, if first of all, had put in

486
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 2: a lot of these caveats that you're sharing with me

487
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:16,400
Speaker 2: right now, it would have made for such a much

488
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 2: more interesting piece and piece. But what you said about

489
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:22,200
Speaker 2: America and needing to do this, need to do that,

490
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:25,320
Speaker 2: I will leave it to Americans to talk about these things.

491
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:27,959
Speaker 2: When I wear my American hat, I can also talk

492
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 2: about But today the reason why I'm talking to you

493
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 2: is the African magat because my roots and I'm African

494
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 2: first and foremost. So when you go back and said, well,

495
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,720
Speaker 2: you know, if the oil industry and if also huels

496
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 2: were so important to Africa, would have known by now

497
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:47,280
Speaker 2: because clearly, but Africa is not where it should be

498
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:49,480
Speaker 2: right now, so it tells me that we don't necessarily

499
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 2: you know, that's not what I said.

500
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 1: What I said was if developing oil and gas resources

501
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 1: in Africa was going to solve energy poverty, we would

502
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 1: have seen that happen in Nigeria. I think there's a

503
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 1: huge problem with the companies that are doing the work

504
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 1: in those countries not being required to actually address energy poverty,

505
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 1: especially because a lot of those companies are now saying

506
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,080
Speaker 1: that like that's the entire reason that they're in Africa.

507
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:17,960
Speaker 1: So I would say, okay, make them do that. Then,

508
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 1: like there's enough resources on the continent to address this issue,

509
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:27,200
Speaker 1: and you know, you know, I feel like there's a

510
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 1: huge amount of work that needs to be done to

511
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:33,640
Speaker 1: look at how fossil fuel contracts are made, how developing

512
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:36,960
Speaker 1: financing works, all of that stuff, how the whole investor

513
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:40,240
Speaker 1: state disputed system is set up that robs countries of

514
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:43,240
Speaker 1: their sovereignty, all of that stuff. So like, in order

515
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:46,480
Speaker 1: for this entrepreneurship to work that you're talking about and

516
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 1: for businesses to succeed, you also can't have a giant

517
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 1: industry kind of corrupting that process.

518
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,680
Speaker 2: I'd be jumping there the ways. So first of all,

519
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 2: thanks for clarifying people here. And I don't have a

520
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,240
Speaker 2: problem with what you just said. My country, Senegal just

521
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 2: discovered oil, when I say, just a few years ago,

522
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 2: discovered discovered gas, huge reserves of oil gas and it

523
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 2: is estimated, but we probably will only get to keep

524
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 2: ten percent of the proceed.

525
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 1: Of that right, and that would be high. That would

526
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:18,760
Speaker 1: be high.

527
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 2: And meanwhile, while clean ass Germany is over there saying

528
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 2: so no more Bostil fuels and the Green Party of

529
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 2: Germany now when reality really hit them hard this past winter,

530
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 2: like let's reopen the cool mind because because by the way,

531
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:39,160
Speaker 2: this fool thing that you were trying to sell us

532
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:42,080
Speaker 2: that renewable was ready, it's not ready. If it was ready,

533
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:44,360
Speaker 2: you would have gotten there. And meanwhile, the same Germany

534
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:46,480
Speaker 2: coming to my country to try negotiations and m So

535
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 2: the reason why I say that's it's just like me

536
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 2: when I thought we were poor. We were it's hard

537
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:53,240
Speaker 2: to do business in Africa because we're poor, and I

538
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:55,719
Speaker 2: discovered it was giveaway around. I will tell you here

539
00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:57,520
Speaker 2: today the same exactly that I say to some of

540
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 2: my friends who might be saying the same thing you said.

541
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 2: So the reason why we're being literally this exploited. And

542
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:07,240
Speaker 2: it's not just oiler, it's not just oil. I have

543
00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 2: a bigger problem with the Angels, the eight industry. As

544
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:12,280
Speaker 2: we know. The reason why it's so easy for everybody

545
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 2: to come to our nations and vi the kings and

546
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 2: queens on our own land. Is because we are poor.

547
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 2: And I will say it again, why are we poor?

548
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:25,240
Speaker 2: I am not poor because the oil and gas company

549
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 2: people are taking my fossil fuels away. It's not a

550
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 2: good thing. That's definitely not a good thing. And we

551
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:32,360
Speaker 2: intend to do better. But the only time we're going

552
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:35,120
Speaker 2: to be able to do better with them not benefiting

553
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:38,400
Speaker 2: more from us is going to be when our people

554
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 2: are not so longer poor, where we don't have time

555
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 2: to really look at what our leaders are doing, and

556
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 2: even when we see there's nothing we can do. In

557
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 2: my country, some reports came up, but there was some

558
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:51,480
Speaker 2: corruption that happened there, basically a coil but food on

559
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:54,920
Speaker 2: the cheap, and most of our people didn't even have

560
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:57,640
Speaker 2: time to complain about it. After a few months, little noise,

561
00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:00,120
Speaker 2: everybody went back to trying and find food, because when

562
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:02,760
Speaker 2: the majority of people are poor, most people don't have

563
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 2: time to go and see look at what the president

564
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 2: is doing and what the type of nasty deals are doing.

565
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 2: We don't have a strong society, We don't have organizations

566
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:12,720
Speaker 2: that are looking into all of this, bringing them to

567
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 2: the forefront and all of that. Gri staff as you

568
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 2: may not know. So my point is this is not

569
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 2: us going and trying to force these people do this

570
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 2: and to do that. At the end of the day,

571
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 2: as long as we remain poor, we will be the

572
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 2: carpet on which everyone else and the mothers walks on.

573
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:31,920
Speaker 2: And it is just the way it is. And so

574
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 2: for me, my plan is not tell the oil company

575
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:39,240
Speaker 2: to one or company of that company do this, do that.

576
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 2: As long as the situation is the way it is,

577
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 2: we will remain where we are now. If we manage

578
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:49,400
Speaker 2: to free our entrepreneurs build the type of prosperity, and

579
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 2: they will also have access to the type of oil

580
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 2: because if our entrepreneurs are enterprising and they have the

581
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 2: money to pay for the fossil fuels to be handled

582
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:02,600
Speaker 2: diregged on the ground, this is the force that's going

583
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:05,480
Speaker 2: to make world companies to say, you know, to be like, oh,

584
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 2: maybe we should leave more in here, because guess what,

585
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,759
Speaker 2: at that point, it's not about somebody telling them you

586
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:13,920
Speaker 2: want to do the right thing, You need to give

587
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 2: what's worth you know there For us it feels worth

588
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:19,360
Speaker 2: in money. No, what happens is, oh, g there's a

589
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:21,960
Speaker 2: bucket here, there is a market here. These people can

590
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 2: pay for it, these companies can pay for it. But

591
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:27,880
Speaker 2: my point is, you see that if the force I

592
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:31,600
Speaker 2: kill myself trying to tell people economic freedom is what

593
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:34,520
Speaker 2: we need in order to unleash all the other dominoes.

594
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:38,279
Speaker 2: But instead every is busy. I seeing almost operating in

595
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:41,360
Speaker 2: a worldview in which US Africans are going to remain

596
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:44,319
Speaker 2: poor for the rest of our lives. When you poor,

597
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:46,680
Speaker 2: you have no voice. When you poor, you're not a market.

598
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:48,880
Speaker 2: When you're not a market, nobody cares to you. But

599
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:51,520
Speaker 2: I go back to my piece being that when I

600
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaker 2: see a piece like this and you're here, this piece

601
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:59,720
Speaker 2: is all about defending last generation. It's all about defending

602
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:04,759
Speaker 2: rights of these climate activists people to ba basically do

603
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:07,919
Speaker 2: whatever it is that we're doing. That's what this piece

604
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:10,759
Speaker 2: Wallows was all about. I would have loved So when

605
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,080
Speaker 2: I see a piece like this defending the rights of

606
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 2: rich kids, excuse me people calling them this way, because seriously,

607
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:18,920
Speaker 2: when I look around, that's what I see. Rich kids

608
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:21,279
Speaker 2: who are looking for a way, for an existent show,

609
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 2: for a way maybe to exist in this world. And

610
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:25,239
Speaker 2: I tell them, if you want to exist in this world,

611
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 2: if you want to feel like you're doing something really useful.

612
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:32,239
Speaker 2: Why don't you come with me on the battle of

613
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:36,399
Speaker 2: making sure that Africans have access to economic freedom as

614
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:39,719
Speaker 2: well as that we do not stop pipelines that are

615
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:42,000
Speaker 2: being built, by the way, trying to be built in

616
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 2: places like Tanzania, in places like Ugandas. Why is it

617
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 2: that you are right now protesting those type of developments?

618
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 2: So you are not here?

619
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:51,400
Speaker 7: You are?

620
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:54,680
Speaker 2: You say that you're fighting for the climate and nature?

621
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:57,520
Speaker 2: Are we people not part of climate and nature?

622
00:35:57,800 --> 00:35:58,120
Speaker 8: You are?

623
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 2: But in the name of climate and literature, we can

624
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:03,800
Speaker 2: just die, Thank you very much. And I think you

625
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:05,680
Speaker 2: have trying to say that here, so.

626
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:08,799
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to say that here at all. That's

627
00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:11,520
Speaker 1: a total mischaracterization.

628
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 2: I was saying. I'm saying, yeah, actually say that. But

629
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:17,880
Speaker 2: is Ampy, with all of the things to fight for

630
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 2: in the world, with all critical problems to fight for

631
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:24,200
Speaker 2: in the world that you said before it was a

632
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 2: four thousand, you know, word piece, four thousand word piece.

633
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:32,800
Speaker 2: I see complaints about pretty much everybody and the mothers

634
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:36,640
Speaker 2: as long as we're related to Atlas network. But I see,

635
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:39,759
Speaker 2: and I see and all of that in defense of

636
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:44,440
Speaker 2: rich kids deciding to glue themselves to the asphalt or

637
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:47,880
Speaker 2: to some paintings, and then crying out loud, why is

638
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:50,719
Speaker 2: it that they're being arrested broad I live in If

639
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:55,120
Speaker 2: you're messing up with somebody's property, that's the problem.

640
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:29,040
Speaker 1: Okay, So cutting it again here, because this thing that

641
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:32,320
Speaker 1: my God keeps saying at this point in our conversation,

642
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:35,840
Speaker 1: she kind of keeps repeating it that these climate activists

643
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:38,880
Speaker 1: are rich kids, and the tone is kind of like

644
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:43,160
Speaker 1: they're annoying rich kids who are destroying property for no reason.

645
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:46,800
Speaker 1: This is actually like a pretty key message that we

646
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:50,240
Speaker 1: saw at list network folks hammering on again and again

647
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:52,840
Speaker 1: in the media all over the world. In fact, we

648
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:55,239
Speaker 1: talked about it a lot in our episode. It's a

649
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:59,360
Speaker 1: big part of the strategy to demonize and minimize what

650
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:02,799
Speaker 1: climate at activists are fighting for, which is not at

651
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,879
Speaker 1: all to say that activists don't sometimes get it wrong.

652
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:10,000
Speaker 1: We've talked about that before in our last episode, in fact,

653
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:12,920
Speaker 1: we got into the details about why applying class and

654
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:19,200
Speaker 1: race filters are so extremely critical to successful activism. But

655
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 1: it's just not true that all climate activists are rich

656
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:26,719
Speaker 1: white kids. The activists fighting the pipeline Magot mentioned in

657
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:31,160
Speaker 1: Tanzania and Uganda, for example. Those are mostly young people

658
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:34,520
Speaker 1: who are from those countries. In fact, we've got an

659
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:37,719
Speaker 1: episode on that fight coming soon where you'll hear from

660
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 1: some of those folks. There are definitely activists in other

661
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:45,560
Speaker 1: countries who are supporting them. Usually those folks are protesting

662
00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:49,120
Speaker 1: the banks in their countries that are financing the pipeline.

663
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:54,360
Speaker 1: But the resistance is home grown, which brings me to

664
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:58,160
Speaker 1: another thing I think is important to note here. Africans

665
00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:01,520
Speaker 1: are not a monolith. In the global South are not

666
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:05,480
Speaker 1: a monolith. There are people who are for and against

667
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 1: fossil fuels in every country. Longtime listeners of this show

668
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:15,840
Speaker 1: might remember Guyanese attorney Melinda Jinki's absolute disdain for the

669
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:20,080
Speaker 1: idea that global North countries should transition away from fossil

670
00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:24,120
Speaker 1: fuels quickly while the Global South continues to use fossil

671
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:25,680
Speaker 1: fuels for a while longer.

672
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:29,040
Speaker 7: Developing countries should have until twenty fifty to.

673
00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:32,040
Speaker 2: Come away from oil. Why would you say.

674
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:37,960
Speaker 7: That when in every single former colony people are saying

675
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:40,719
Speaker 7: stop the oil, we don't want it.

676
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:45,239
Speaker 8: Yeah, and places like Uganda and Mozambique, and you know

677
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:48,680
Speaker 8: they're putting their lives on the line to stop oil.

678
00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:51,839
Speaker 8: And when you sit in your comfortable.

679
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:56,439
Speaker 7: University room and say, oh, well, I've decided that I'm

680
00:39:56,520 --> 00:39:59,239
Speaker 7: in the interesting justices. People shouldn't have to get rid

681
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 7: of the fossil fuel until twenty fifty. And in order

682
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:05,239
Speaker 7: to make this really fair, the first world should now

683
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:11,520
Speaker 7: I mutually convert to renewable energy. In other words, all

684
00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:15,719
Speaker 7: the white people go straight for renewable energy, align their

685
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:21,320
Speaker 7: economies and move on to prosperous, free future. Don't this

686
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:25,120
Speaker 7: stuff on the third world. But I'm doing this under

687
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:26,480
Speaker 7: the guise of the just transition.

688
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 1: That season also included a great interview with Yale economist

689
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:34,600
Speaker 1: Nara Sima Rao, who talked about the role that global

690
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:38,000
Speaker 1: development funding plays in all of this and the real

691
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 1: structural blockers to energy transition for a lot of global

692
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:43,240
Speaker 1: South countries.

693
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:48,239
Speaker 4: So the need for international cooperation for technology transfer and

694
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:51,880
Speaker 4: some sort of consideration of fair efforts is essential for

695
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:56,239
Speaker 4: deeper transformations in these wa economies. Having said that, there

696
00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:59,600
Speaker 4: is some potential for them to scale up renewables beyond

697
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:03,560
Speaker 4: what they're currently doing potentially, but still there's an upfront

698
00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:07,320
Speaker 4: capital requirement. So let me speak about finance. For a second,

699
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:12,040
Speaker 4: if you look at private finance today, the cost of

700
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:18,320
Speaker 4: capitals are exactly inversely related to the average income of countries.

701
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:22,040
Speaker 4: That is, the poorest countries in Sub Saharan Africa have

702
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:25,800
Speaker 4: the highest costs of capital seen by a private finance

703
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:30,000
Speaker 4: because they see high risk in investing in these economies.

704
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:33,600
Speaker 4: But this is a problem also of how risk is

705
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:37,560
Speaker 4: assessed and measured. So for example, you know, we think

706
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:40,839
Speaker 4: about credit risk. People need to have debt to get

707
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:44,919
Speaker 4: new debt, and that's circular and maybe inappropriate for people

708
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:47,640
Speaker 4: who never been part of the former economy, but they

709
00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:50,359
Speaker 4: may yet have a record, a perfect record of paying

710
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:55,120
Speaker 4: bills to the extent they receive existing services. So the

711
00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:58,560
Speaker 4: existing market for finance on its own is going to

712
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:01,120
Speaker 4: be even more challenge because of the fact that the

713
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:05,200
Speaker 4: poorest countries have the highest demanding cost of capital. So

714
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:07,920
Speaker 4: there's going to have to be some kind of government

715
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:11,640
Speaker 4: intervention to underwrite private finance if at all, or some

716
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:15,839
Speaker 4: sort of broadest scheme for government cooperation. And so that's

717
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:21,000
Speaker 4: with regards to the transformation. Now are developing countries thinking

718
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:25,439
Speaker 4: only short term, not thinking long term. For the most part,

719
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:29,000
Speaker 4: we have to understand that poor countries have development priorities

720
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:32,720
Speaker 4: that are long standing, and over the last few decades,

721
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:37,480
Speaker 4: generally countries started out by saying that the climate is

722
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:40,680
Speaker 4: a northern problem. It's a problem created by the West

723
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:43,239
Speaker 4: and has to be dealt with by them. But over time,

724
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:46,239
Speaker 4: for various reasons, it's been understood that all countries have

725
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:49,200
Speaker 4: to be part of the energy transition, and also that

726
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:53,920
Speaker 4: there are several opportunities for efficiently growing in ways that

727
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:58,560
Speaker 4: will be beneficial to even low income countries, for example

728
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:03,000
Speaker 4: by reducing air pollution and other health benefits of transitioning

729
00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:06,520
Speaker 4: to clean energy. So there has been a push towards

730
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:11,680
Speaker 4: trying to integrate and mainstream climate conditions and climate priorities

731
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 4: into development priorities. But it's really important to understand that

732
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:20,960
Speaker 4: we have to embed climate considerations within the existing set

733
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:25,040
Speaker 4: of priorities developing countries have, rather than to think about

734
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:29,400
Speaker 4: it as let's see how we can introduce climate policy

735
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:33,480
Speaker 4: and think about other benefits for development. So that mainstreaming

736
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:38,040
Speaker 4: of climate into development policy, I think is happening increasingly,

737
00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:42,359
Speaker 4: and so yes, poor countries are mostly thinking about near

738
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:46,359
Speaker 4: term priorities, but there has been significant progress and at

739
00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 4: least formally thinking about climate partically including them in plans

740
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:55,200
Speaker 4: for the future, but very often conditional on support from

741
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:57,080
Speaker 4: the international community.

742
00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:00,560
Speaker 1: I'll stick links to those episodes in the show notes

743
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:03,520
Speaker 1: as well in case you missed them. Time for another

744
00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 1: quick break. Okay, back to my conversation with macgott Wade,

745
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:21,279
Speaker 1: who runs the Center for African Prosperity. It's part of

746
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:23,640
Speaker 1: the Atlas network of think tanks.

747
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:28,960
Speaker 2: So you know, I mean I saw these peaks. At

748
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:32,759
Speaker 2: first I was angry, and then I was so sad.

749
00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:35,560
Speaker 2: Do you know why I was sad because I told myself,

750
00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 2: I said, at first I was angry, or first because

751
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:40,120
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh my god, how do they even get it?

752
00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:43,080
Speaker 2: And then I was very sad because I said, and

753
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 2: there again my life as a black person and how

754
00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:58,920
Speaker 2: and all the issues I talk about for you know

755
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 2: or people, Oh that real pain, those disasters you know.

756
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 2: Today listen, Amy, I'm I'm gonna share this with you

757
00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:14,719
Speaker 2: because I have to today. Here here you go on

758
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:18,160
Speaker 2: this thing. This is you see, this is a word

759
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:21,480
Speaker 2: said that I go to and I'll share with you here.

760
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:25,520
Speaker 2: I'll show it you. You see this photo. You see

761
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:28,719
Speaker 2: a boat, right boat with people in it, yeah, the

762
00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:31,759
Speaker 2: news of today. Every day, Amy, I have these news

763
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:35,400
Speaker 2: every day, and he said, let police antercept trant me.

764
00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:40,680
Speaker 2: The police intercepted a boat with thirty migrants in it,

765
00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:44,280
Speaker 2: and they arrested five of the people who were helping

766
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:48,520
Speaker 2: them Russ Today it was only three. But every single day, Amy,

767
00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:51,040
Speaker 2: I get these news, and you know that these people

768
00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:54,160
Speaker 2: will not make it so when I see suffering, When

769
00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:56,439
Speaker 2: I see this suffering of people who are so poor

770
00:45:56,920 --> 00:45:59,520
Speaker 2: in their nations. The jobs don't exist because the business,

771
00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:03,440
Speaker 2: because we end entrepreneurs cannot create businesses, and it becomes

772
00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:06,879
Speaker 2: so dire. But these kids, for so many of them,

773
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:09,600
Speaker 2: behlf my age, and they're saying, you know what, we

774
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:12,200
Speaker 2: are leaving, we have to go make a living. And

775
00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:14,560
Speaker 2: you tell them, you know how many nights I spend

776
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:16,400
Speaker 2: some time on the phone trying to talk to a

777
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:18,760
Speaker 2: woman who is about to take off with her baby

778
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:21,759
Speaker 2: on these boats. I spend all night trying to talk

779
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:24,440
Speaker 2: her out of it, because I know she ha's more

780
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:27,960
Speaker 2: chances of dying than not. Yeah, and then I see

781
00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:33,799
Speaker 2: a piece like this, but where what is the part

782
00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:36,200
Speaker 2: of the promoting is part of a problem for me?

783
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:38,759
Speaker 2: They're not solving my problem. I'm making it worse. And

784
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:41,160
Speaker 2: then I see a piece like this where you give

785
00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:44,600
Speaker 2: them four thousand words, four thousand words, and there's none

786
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:47,160
Speaker 2: for me, none. I don't exist. And that made me

787
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:49,480
Speaker 2: so sad. First I was met.

788
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:52,399
Speaker 9: Then I was sad because I was like, and there

789
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:56,520
Speaker 9: we go. We don't even matter some kids wanting to

790
00:46:56,680 --> 00:46:58,759
Speaker 9: just go and do what the reason they're doing. It's

791
00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:02,200
Speaker 9: more important to defend then trying to work so much.

792
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:07,040
Speaker 9: These people don't go, These people don't go.

793
00:47:07,120 --> 00:47:13,880
Speaker 3: Go, Megan, sorry.

794
00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:16,759
Speaker 1: You know, the beauty of a podcast is that when

795
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:19,759
Speaker 1: you're listening to a conversation later and you realize that

796
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:22,160
Speaker 1: you should have said something, you could just go ahead

797
00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:25,359
Speaker 1: and say it. It feels important here to point out

798
00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:28,480
Speaker 1: that a lot of coour migrants are being pushed out

799
00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:32,480
Speaker 1: of their homes by extreme weather events as well. We're

800
00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:37,920
Speaker 1: bamine caused by drought, and again, not all climate activists

801
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:41,920
Speaker 1: are rich white people. What we're talking about protecting is

802
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:45,920
Speaker 1: the basic right to protest, not some spoiled brat's right

803
00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:47,040
Speaker 1: to do whatever they want.

804
00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:57,120
Speaker 10: Okay, back to my gut, Okay, soist Amy, It's just

805
00:47:57,360 --> 00:47:59,719
Speaker 10: I'm just like you see, this is why when I

806
00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:00,880
Speaker 10: was Jordan Peterson.

807
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:03,520
Speaker 2: And even there you criticize me. That's all I was

808
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:06,000
Speaker 2: talking to him about. And I will say this to anyone,

809
00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:08,200
Speaker 2: but willing to hear me out. I don't care who

810
00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:10,719
Speaker 2: you are because I think is it important? And I

811
00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:12,920
Speaker 2: refuse to be like, oh you on de side, you

812
00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:14,239
Speaker 2: on decide, I don't talk.

813
00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:14,680
Speaker 8: No.

814
00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:17,279
Speaker 2: At least he was willing to hear me out. And

815
00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:21,200
Speaker 2: when I say my people are dying, this is important.

816
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:24,719
Speaker 2: The policies that this guy right here, this face, he took,

817
00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:28,000
Speaker 2: what he's defending goes straight against my people. And I

818
00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:30,600
Speaker 2: will never ever state that more much what happened. And

819
00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:33,759
Speaker 2: so when you say black lives matter, maybe we have

820
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:35,720
Speaker 2: to be clear about which black lives matter, maybe because's

821
00:48:35,719 --> 00:48:38,480
Speaker 2: only American black lives that matter, and maybe US African

822
00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:40,800
Speaker 2: black lives. And by the way, with ninety percent of

823
00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:43,719
Speaker 2: a representatives of black race, maybe our ass doesn't matter.

824
00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:46,200
Speaker 2: And that's what I was trying to explain to Jordan Peterson.

825
00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:49,080
Speaker 2: And it is like this four thousand words given to

826
00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:52,879
Speaker 2: defend this guy white cheere with promoting stop what's gonna

827
00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:56,360
Speaker 2: kill my people or stand in our way? I just

828
00:48:56,400 --> 00:48:59,920
Speaker 2: don't know anymore. When I said, I don't know, I

829
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:02,360
Speaker 2: don't know. I'm so glad you're shop because maybe I

830
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:06,080
Speaker 2: can hear from you. I yeah, and that Afrika matter.

831
00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:11,920
Speaker 1: You definitely matter. Africa definitely matters. I'm really genuinely sorry

832
00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:14,680
Speaker 1: that this piece made you feel this way. It was

833
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:17,920
Speaker 1: definitely not the intention. Let me just kind of explain

834
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:21,040
Speaker 1: a little bit about what it was that we were

835
00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:24,560
Speaker 1: looking at here, which was not defending any one climate

836
00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:27,360
Speaker 1: activist group necessarily. I would say, like the guy that

837
00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:30,640
Speaker 1: you're pointing to, he's with last generation. Their asks are

838
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:35,080
Speaker 1: pretty pretty small. It's like institute one hundred kilometer an

839
00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:38,640
Speaker 1: our speed limit on the Autobahn and give everyone access

840
00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:42,680
Speaker 1: to free public transit. So they're not advocating for anything

841
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:48,040
Speaker 1: that would negatively impact people in Africa. One of the

842
00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:51,800
Speaker 1: things that we were looking at was not the protection

843
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:55,640
Speaker 1: of climate protests necessarily, but really the crackdown on free

844
00:49:55,719 --> 00:49:59,680
Speaker 1: speech in general. So which is something that like from

845
00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:02,680
Speaker 1: like I have read and seen most at list network

846
00:50:02,719 --> 00:50:05,520
Speaker 1: thing tanks are very supportive of free speech. So it's

847
00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:09,480
Speaker 1: surprising to see, you know, intense amount of support for

848
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:13,680
Speaker 1: some kinds of free speech, but this sort of extreme approach,

849
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:15,840
Speaker 1: and not from you by the way I should. I

850
00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:18,160
Speaker 1: feel like that should be made clear here. I have

851
00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:22,000
Speaker 1: not ever seen you vilify climate protesters in any way.

852
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:24,399
Speaker 1: You have a difference of opinion with some of them,

853
00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:26,879
Speaker 1: but I don't think that you have said or done

854
00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:31,319
Speaker 1: anything that would contribute to what's happening right now, which

855
00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:34,680
Speaker 1: is the criminalization of protests. So really it's the criminalization

856
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:40,239
Speaker 1: of protest piece which will affect all people everywhere. That

857
00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:43,399
Speaker 1: is a big problem for me, just as someone who

858
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:45,960
Speaker 1: thinks that you know, hey, if you believe in free speech,

859
00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:49,160
Speaker 1: that has to include speech you don't like to, you know.

860
00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:52,080
Speaker 2: Like, it can't just be the speech that you agree with.

861
00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:54,759
Speaker 1: So that was the focus of that piece on the

862
00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:59,800
Speaker 1: subject of climate politics and how it does or doesn't

863
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:04,120
Speaker 1: support prosperity in Africa. I think again, like I said before,

864
00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:08,560
Speaker 1: I feel like the climate movement has absolutely failed Africa.

865
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:11,160
Speaker 1: I see people all the time that just do not

866
00:51:11,239 --> 00:51:15,319
Speaker 1: want to engage with anything around the need for cheap,

867
00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:18,440
Speaker 1: reliable energy. And to your point before about Germany going

868
00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:21,399
Speaker 1: back to coal, yeah, I think it's ridiculous to push

869
00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:26,800
Speaker 1: the idea of everyone transitioning to renewables before that's technologically feasible,

870
00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:31,520
Speaker 1: which it is not at the moment technologically feasible to

871
00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:34,560
Speaker 1: have the sort of scale of renewables that you would

872
00:51:34,640 --> 00:51:38,000
Speaker 1: need to power all of Africa. And also, by the way,

873
00:51:38,120 --> 00:51:42,600
Speaker 1: if that technology was available, it's going the usual route

874
00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:45,759
Speaker 1: of heading to Europe first and then the rest of

875
00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:49,480
Speaker 1: the world. So like, ignoring that fact and that history

876
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:55,040
Speaker 1: is disingenuous and not helpful. That said, I also think

877
00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:57,759
Speaker 1: if we're going to say, okay, look we need more

878
00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:01,200
Speaker 1: entrepreneurship in Africa, we need support for entrepreneurs and business

879
00:52:01,640 --> 00:52:03,719
Speaker 1: and a part of that support is access to cheap,

880
00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:08,000
Speaker 1: free energy. Totally agree. I think that should be you know,

881
00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:12,279
Speaker 1: energy source agnostic. So like, if there's a situation where

882
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:17,560
Speaker 1: nuclear or hydro or renewables is the cheaper, more available option,

883
00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:20,799
Speaker 1: then that should be allowed to happen. Right now, what's

884
00:52:20,840 --> 00:52:23,399
Speaker 1: happening is kind of the reverse where there's a real

885
00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:26,880
Speaker 1: push and again I'm gonna mention the fossil fuel industry

886
00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:29,400
Speaker 1: because they're not just like any old mom and pops

887
00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:31,520
Speaker 1: set up. You know, they've got quite a lot of

888
00:52:31,640 --> 00:52:34,879
Speaker 1: power all over the world. There is quite a big

889
00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:39,400
Speaker 1: push right now to lock in these contracts that require

890
00:52:39,640 --> 00:52:43,120
Speaker 1: countries to be on fossil fuels for thirty plus years.

891
00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:47,080
Speaker 1: So that to me is again actually like really not

892
00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:48,560
Speaker 1: a free market approach.

893
00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:49,640
Speaker 2: That is one.

894
00:52:49,560 --> 00:52:52,640
Speaker 1: Industry saying you're gonna sign this contract with us and

895
00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:56,160
Speaker 1: you're gonna be not allowed to change for thirty years.

896
00:52:56,600 --> 00:52:58,160
Speaker 1: That's not an improvement, you know.

897
00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:01,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'm gonna So there there are two things.

898
00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:05,799
Speaker 2: So so you're saying some there's two things. And first

899
00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:08,600
Speaker 2: of all, I am appreciative of the fact that you

900
00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:13,040
Speaker 2: at least support prosperity for Africa and you all don't

901
00:53:13,080 --> 00:53:15,399
Speaker 2: seem to be an anti fALS of flue. I call

902
00:53:15,480 --> 00:53:17,399
Speaker 2: them the anti fos fuel zalous. So it doesn't seem

903
00:53:17,400 --> 00:53:19,080
Speaker 2: to me like you've had because you're saying, look, yeah,

904
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:21,800
Speaker 2: I'm hearing that you know, reality is reality.

905
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:22,880
Speaker 1: You never realized.

906
00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:27,160
Speaker 2: Yeah that I'm very happy to hear that. So going

907
00:53:27,239 --> 00:53:29,239
Speaker 2: back to to other things that you said, because I

908
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:31,080
Speaker 2: think I think it might help for me to clarify

909
00:53:31,160 --> 00:53:33,480
Speaker 2: but you a little bit because I happen to be

910
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:36,359
Speaker 2: within the address network, so and I know what they're

911
00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:37,919
Speaker 2: doing and how they're doing things.

912
00:53:38,239 --> 00:53:38,799
Speaker 1: So what's up.

913
00:53:39,239 --> 00:53:41,720
Speaker 2: This is where I wish that some of the groups

914
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:45,040
Speaker 2: that you talked about here, actually not some, almost each

915
00:53:45,080 --> 00:53:46,960
Speaker 2: single one of them would have been great that you know,

916
00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:49,120
Speaker 2: you had a call with them, maybe like you're having

917
00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:52,080
Speaker 2: with me right now. Really, I think there's a misunderstanding

918
00:53:52,560 --> 00:53:56,200
Speaker 2: on why the stand by some of these groups are taking.

919
00:53:56,400 --> 00:54:00,120
Speaker 2: And because for you, when you're seeing these activists, you know,

920
00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:03,560
Speaker 2: doing what they're doing, you're saying, yeah, they're voicing their

921
00:54:03,640 --> 00:54:05,920
Speaker 2: disagreement with whatever it is that the voice of a disagreement,

922
00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:09,040
Speaker 2: they're voicing themself, they're the act. They're doing free speech,

923
00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:12,200
Speaker 2: so you're saying they're doing free speech. And where people

924
00:54:12,520 --> 00:54:15,840
Speaker 2: like the folks, multiple folks in the ADLAS network, you

925
00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:19,440
Speaker 2: know network, would say is we are we have never

926
00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:23,680
Speaker 2: been against people, you know, doing free speech. As a

927
00:54:23,719 --> 00:54:25,680
Speaker 2: matter of fact, free speech is definitely one of the

928
00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:28,840
Speaker 2: pillars of one of the pillars that we defend. In

929
00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:32,800
Speaker 2: this case. I think the discrepancy in understanding is in

930
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:36,120
Speaker 2: you're seeing free speech being squelched, and they would say

931
00:54:36,200 --> 00:54:40,960
Speaker 2: to you, we hear them complaining about something, but we

932
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:44,719
Speaker 2: also are property right type of people. You don't get

933
00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:49,200
Speaker 2: to go and throw tomato soup at a painting, which

934
00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:53,160
Speaker 2: is a property somewhere that's not okay, And it's not

935
00:54:53,320 --> 00:54:56,680
Speaker 2: because maybe at some time it was okay, maybe for

936
00:54:56,840 --> 00:54:59,359
Speaker 2: culture or whatever. Us we have always been the people

937
00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:03,399
Speaker 2: who say we art plass of what culture thinks is acceptable.

938
00:55:03,840 --> 00:55:07,960
Speaker 2: Property rights means property rights. So being complain all you want,

939
00:55:08,239 --> 00:55:11,000
Speaker 2: walk in the streets with big signs everywhere you want,

940
00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:13,879
Speaker 2: stream as loud as you want, do whatever you want,

941
00:55:14,280 --> 00:55:18,719
Speaker 2: but do not touch or deface or destroy property. So

942
00:55:19,120 --> 00:55:22,440
Speaker 2: that's the and this is in line, very clear line

943
00:55:22,960 --> 00:55:27,319
Speaker 2: of our principles. Property rights is important. And anyone who

944
00:55:27,440 --> 00:55:31,280
Speaker 2: is serious about entrepreneurship also will tell you that property

945
00:55:31,360 --> 00:55:33,440
Speaker 2: rights is important. When I told you earlier that part

946
00:55:33,480 --> 00:55:37,799
Speaker 2: of the entrepreneurs tool kid is clear and transferable property rights.

947
00:55:37,840 --> 00:55:39,920
Speaker 2: So the concept of property rights is key to us.

948
00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:43,360
Speaker 2: And you can have spree speech. So if all of

949
00:55:43,440 --> 00:55:47,760
Speaker 2: these people we're doing what they're doing without touching somebody's property,

950
00:55:48,440 --> 00:55:51,120
Speaker 2: you would never hear us have an issue with that.

951
00:55:51,280 --> 00:55:55,560
Speaker 2: But the moment we accept doing something to somebody's property

952
00:55:55,600 --> 00:55:57,640
Speaker 2: because we don't like what they stand for or we

953
00:55:57,719 --> 00:56:01,160
Speaker 2: don't like what they do, and you can imagine the

954
00:56:01,239 --> 00:56:03,719
Speaker 2: can of worms that gets open, And I think many

955
00:56:03,800 --> 00:56:06,439
Speaker 2: people don't think about that really about the can of worm.

956
00:56:06,480 --> 00:56:09,600
Speaker 2: We're allowing if you have a right to mess with

957
00:56:09,680 --> 00:56:12,960
Speaker 2: somebody's property, whoever public are private, just because you don't

958
00:56:12,960 --> 00:56:16,040
Speaker 2: happen to like, you know, what this place or the

959
00:56:16,080 --> 00:56:18,719
Speaker 2: people behind it stand for, then it's open door. It's

960
00:56:18,800 --> 00:56:20,440
Speaker 2: open door, and you're not going to be able to

961
00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:22,600
Speaker 2: close these things. So for us, and I think if

962
00:56:22,640 --> 00:56:25,879
Speaker 2: you had talked to the organization, probably you guys would

963
00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:28,080
Speaker 2: have talked and you would have understood that we are

964
00:56:28,200 --> 00:56:31,320
Speaker 2: still very much, very much it's one of our pillars

965
00:56:31,719 --> 00:56:35,200
Speaker 2: defenders of free speech. And I think we have friend

966
00:56:35,239 --> 00:56:36,920
Speaker 2: of briefs even when it moves not the cool thing

967
00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:40,800
Speaker 2: to do, but we separate free speech from property. So

968
00:56:40,920 --> 00:56:43,000
Speaker 2: please go ahead and complain on you want, go ahead

969
00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:46,600
Speaker 2: and protect one you want, but please, property rights exist

970
00:56:46,680 --> 00:56:48,520
Speaker 2: and we need to defend it at all costs. It's

971
00:56:48,600 --> 00:56:50,800
Speaker 2: not because you don't like what any stands for. But

972
00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:52,759
Speaker 2: you have a right to go and tag Amy's home,

973
00:56:53,080 --> 00:56:56,200
Speaker 2: or you have a right to throw something at Amy's window,

974
00:56:56,400 --> 00:56:59,200
Speaker 2: or you know, throw tomato soup at her child stroller

975
00:56:59,520 --> 00:57:01,440
Speaker 2: or something like that. If we start to accept that,

976
00:57:01,520 --> 00:57:05,360
Speaker 2: because supposedly what they're defending seems to be what I

977
00:57:05,600 --> 00:57:07,920
Speaker 2: agree with and I think it's the right moral thing

978
00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:11,040
Speaker 2: to do. Then who then gets to decide what's more

979
00:57:11,120 --> 00:57:11,799
Speaker 2: what's not moral?

980
00:57:12,120 --> 00:57:12,239
Speaker 8: Right?

981
00:57:12,440 --> 00:57:15,840
Speaker 2: So everything it's just right to go and destroy everything everywhere.

982
00:57:16,040 --> 00:57:17,959
Speaker 2: So I think if you a little bit of time

983
00:57:18,000 --> 00:57:20,120
Speaker 2: with us, that's kind of what you would find. So

984
00:57:20,240 --> 00:57:22,880
Speaker 2: that's on the freesation, that's on these protesters and the

985
00:57:22,920 --> 00:57:25,320
Speaker 2: reason why we're having an issue and we're telling the world.

986
00:57:25,360 --> 00:57:28,080
Speaker 2: We were saying to people who were saying, oh, today,

987
00:57:28,720 --> 00:57:31,440
Speaker 2: maybe because we're defending what you think is cool to defend,

988
00:57:31,960 --> 00:57:34,440
Speaker 2: you then close your eyes on all the things they're doing.

989
00:57:34,480 --> 00:57:37,400
Speaker 2: But it's technically not okay. So but we're staying there

990
00:57:37,480 --> 00:57:40,640
Speaker 2: and we're basically the visual on saying, be careful, you guys.

991
00:57:40,720 --> 00:57:42,520
Speaker 2: If we're going to accept this in the name of

992
00:57:42,720 --> 00:57:45,120
Speaker 2: all the ideas we defend, is something we agree with,

993
00:57:45,560 --> 00:57:48,160
Speaker 2: then watch out for when they come, when people come

994
00:57:48,240 --> 00:57:51,120
Speaker 2: to defend things that you don't really agree with. So anyway,

995
00:57:51,160 --> 00:57:53,280
Speaker 2: so we're to kind of keep an eye on things

996
00:57:53,320 --> 00:57:55,400
Speaker 2: like that and remind everybody, I don't care if you

997
00:57:55,520 --> 00:57:57,320
Speaker 2: like what you're doing or not like what you're doing.

998
00:57:57,640 --> 00:58:00,439
Speaker 2: The morning is be careful of what people are doing.

999
00:58:00,520 --> 00:58:03,040
Speaker 2: Because tomorrow it could be against you. And I'm very

1000
00:58:03,160 --> 00:58:06,000
Speaker 2: proud that people like Atlas and the people in our

1001
00:58:06,080 --> 00:58:09,120
Speaker 2: network are out there watching and not being dragged into

1002
00:58:09,200 --> 00:58:13,560
Speaker 2: these political battles or into these cultural battles that actually

1003
00:58:13,640 --> 00:58:15,560
Speaker 2: fluctuate and go all over the place. So we have

1004
00:58:15,680 --> 00:58:18,840
Speaker 2: princip possible stands no matter what. So that's what they

1005
00:58:18,880 --> 00:58:21,200
Speaker 2: would probably say to you. And I'm sure that given

1006
00:58:21,280 --> 00:58:24,320
Speaker 2: what I've heard you, Amy, and how the conversation we're

1007
00:58:24,320 --> 00:58:27,600
Speaker 2: able to have really, you know, I haven't feeling that

1008
00:58:27,720 --> 00:58:31,080
Speaker 2: you guys, but we understand each other. And when you

1009
00:58:31,200 --> 00:58:34,320
Speaker 2: talk about you know, these world companies, the deals that

1010
00:58:34,360 --> 00:58:37,600
Speaker 2: they're making, it's not free market. Look, that's another thing.

1011
00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:40,280
Speaker 2: If you know anything about Atlas, you will learn that

1012
00:58:40,560 --> 00:58:43,960
Speaker 2: one of our big enemies is what we call chrony cats,

1013
00:58:44,560 --> 00:58:50,240
Speaker 2: chrony business and so, but chronism is happens when really,

1014
00:58:51,000 --> 00:58:54,600
Speaker 2: when you have monopolies or you many almost everyone else

1015
00:58:54,600 --> 00:58:57,200
Speaker 2: has been kept out or the people that you're negotiating

1016
00:58:57,240 --> 00:58:59,640
Speaker 2: with really don't have the same you know, what do

1017
00:58:59,680 --> 00:59:01,800
Speaker 2: you call in the same weight, and then you can

1018
00:59:01,960 --> 00:59:04,640
Speaker 2: just get to them whatever you want. That's so some

1019
00:59:04,760 --> 00:59:07,200
Speaker 2: of it is due to chrony capitalism and again, it

1020
00:59:07,320 --> 00:59:11,640
Speaker 2: is part of our principles. We are anti chrony. We

1021
00:59:11,760 --> 00:59:15,320
Speaker 2: will fight monopolies anytime receive them. We don't agree with

1022
00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:18,760
Speaker 2: things like that. Now I go back to see you know,

1023
00:59:18,880 --> 00:59:20,640
Speaker 2: someone like me Amy, I used to be this wy too.

1024
00:59:20,840 --> 00:59:23,000
Speaker 2: It used to be like if only we forced people

1025
00:59:23,160 --> 00:59:25,200
Speaker 2: that they have to do the contract this way or

1026
00:59:25,240 --> 00:59:27,280
Speaker 2: do it that way, otherwise they can't be there. You

1027
00:59:27,360 --> 00:59:30,400
Speaker 2: know what would happen if a business does not see

1028
00:59:30,920 --> 00:59:33,600
Speaker 2: if something does not work for a business somewhere, it's

1029
00:59:33,680 --> 00:59:35,640
Speaker 2: simply just not going to do it. And it's not

1030
00:59:35,720 --> 00:59:39,080
Speaker 2: because we're going to force an oil company or a

1031
00:59:39,520 --> 00:59:43,120
Speaker 2: company or anybody. We do have a right being if

1032
00:59:43,480 --> 00:59:45,560
Speaker 2: the situation allows them to get it with a bit

1033
00:59:45,600 --> 00:59:47,960
Speaker 2: as much as they might get a win with. You know,

1034
00:59:48,080 --> 00:59:50,280
Speaker 2: people are greedy, and this is not when I say

1035
00:59:50,320 --> 00:59:53,080
Speaker 2: this not a problem of capitalism, because people are gonna

1036
00:59:53,080 --> 00:59:55,400
Speaker 2: be like, yes, the capitalism is the greedy system. No,

1037
00:59:55,920 --> 01:00:00,360
Speaker 2: humans are greedy. We and as with everything, you will

1038
01:00:00,400 --> 01:00:03,120
Speaker 2: have people who are honest, people who are dishonest. You're

1039
01:00:03,120 --> 01:00:05,680
Speaker 2: gonna have people who are fair, people who are fair,

1040
01:00:05,920 --> 01:00:07,880
Speaker 2: people who are just like I'm gonna take as much

1041
01:00:07,880 --> 01:00:09,560
Speaker 2: as I can and I don't care what people say.

1042
01:00:09,560 --> 01:00:11,480
Speaker 2: If I can do it, I'll do it. And others

1043
01:00:11,560 --> 01:00:13,560
Speaker 2: are gonna be like even if no one is watching,

1044
01:00:13,880 --> 01:00:15,880
Speaker 2: I don't want to take more than what I have

1045
01:00:16,040 --> 01:00:19,080
Speaker 2: and I believe in fairness no matter what. And with

1046
01:00:19,200 --> 01:00:22,520
Speaker 2: business people, you have the same thing going on, same thing.

1047
01:00:22,840 --> 01:00:28,480
Speaker 2: So here my my argument goes back until unless African

1048
01:00:28,600 --> 01:00:32,080
Speaker 2: nations are no longer poor mm hmm, it will have

1049
01:00:32,240 --> 01:00:35,680
Speaker 2: this type of deals. Because you know, I'm like you two.

1050
01:00:36,040 --> 01:00:40,200
Speaker 2: I will say, deals happening right there, and there's absolutely

1051
01:00:40,320 --> 01:00:42,760
Speaker 2: nothing I can do with it. So am I gonna

1052
01:00:42,800 --> 01:00:46,120
Speaker 2: go and start picketing and saying, yeah, force field old

1053
01:00:46,160 --> 01:00:48,040
Speaker 2: companies to do a vison to do that. That's not

1054
01:00:48,080 --> 01:00:50,800
Speaker 2: where I'm gonna spend my time. That's not gonna change anything.

1055
01:00:51,080 --> 01:00:53,160
Speaker 2: But what I think is gonna change something is if

1056
01:00:53,200 --> 01:00:55,640
Speaker 2: we and it is our entrepreneurs and then the prosperity.

1057
01:00:55,720 --> 01:00:58,400
Speaker 2: With that prosperity, people are gonna start to notice us,

1058
01:00:58,640 --> 01:01:00,760
Speaker 2: respect us, and we're gonna how We're going to start

1059
01:01:00,760 --> 01:01:03,520
Speaker 2: to have a say in how our stuff is sold,

1060
01:01:04,560 --> 01:01:07,480
Speaker 2: sold whom it's sold to, all of us stuff that's

1061
01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:09,320
Speaker 2: going to start to happen. So for me, I made

1062
01:01:09,320 --> 01:01:11,680
Speaker 2: a calculation a long time ago, and that's where I felt.

1063
01:01:11,920 --> 01:01:14,800
Speaker 2: So when you said, oh, atleasts is being hypocritical, or

1064
01:01:14,840 --> 01:01:17,680
Speaker 2: of a network is being hypocritical because they're supporting and

1065
01:01:18,040 --> 01:01:22,160
Speaker 2: you know companies that are doing everything but the free market.

1066
01:01:22,520 --> 01:01:25,080
Speaker 2: Every time you say something like that to yourself about Atlas,

1067
01:01:25,480 --> 01:01:28,120
Speaker 2: go in and again, because you'll find exactly that we

1068
01:01:28,240 --> 01:01:31,520
Speaker 2: have not renounced our principles. Free markets is key to us.

1069
01:01:31,520 --> 01:01:33,840
Speaker 2: And again, like I said, we stand for free markets

1070
01:01:34,160 --> 01:01:36,760
Speaker 2: when it is popular, and we stand with from markets

1071
01:01:36,800 --> 01:01:40,560
Speaker 2: when it is not popular. And another thing about us

1072
01:01:40,640 --> 01:01:43,400
Speaker 2: at last network and the reason why I'm involved with

1073
01:01:43,480 --> 01:01:46,680
Speaker 2: plan any I think that you would say it's a

1074
01:01:46,760 --> 01:01:52,160
Speaker 2: good thing to work on putting women property rights in

1075
01:01:52,280 --> 01:01:55,360
Speaker 2: the Constitution of Rundi when it was not before, meaning

1076
01:01:55,480 --> 01:01:59,440
Speaker 2: women did not have a right to property or to

1077
01:01:59,640 --> 01:02:03,600
Speaker 2: even property that was in their family before our partners

1078
01:02:03,920 --> 01:02:07,560
Speaker 2: addless partner. When you said almost six hundred partners, one

1079
01:02:07,600 --> 01:02:10,480
Speaker 2: of those six partners, that's what they have been working

1080
01:02:10,560 --> 01:02:13,600
Speaker 2: on and they managed to get that to happen. I

1081
01:02:13,640 --> 01:02:18,520
Speaker 2: would say it's a good thing. Right another thing one

1082
01:02:18,560 --> 01:02:21,080
Speaker 2: of us, all six hundred address partners, but usually it's

1083
01:02:21,120 --> 01:02:23,600
Speaker 2: more than one it's multiple people working in different things.

1084
01:02:23,840 --> 01:02:27,400
Speaker 2: Where in South Sudan. Yet the right to property rights,

1085
01:02:27,840 --> 01:02:30,040
Speaker 2: the access to property rights, you know, right with the

1086
01:02:30,080 --> 01:02:33,360
Speaker 2: property rights of women is in the constitution, yet it

1087
01:02:33,520 --> 01:02:37,480
Speaker 2: was not being upheld in real life. What our partners

1088
01:02:37,520 --> 01:02:39,800
Speaker 2: came to us for, what the fun thing went to

1089
01:02:39,880 --> 01:02:43,760
Speaker 2: them for, was to actually work with all the stakeholders

1090
01:02:44,120 --> 01:02:46,880
Speaker 2: in this part of South Sudan. We're talking about the judges,

1091
01:02:46,920 --> 01:02:49,680
Speaker 2: we're talking about the police people, we're talking about the husbands,

1092
01:02:49,760 --> 01:02:53,960
Speaker 2: we're talking about all the stakeholders, women themselves, telling them, ladies,

1093
01:02:54,080 --> 01:02:56,000
Speaker 2: these are your rights. So all of a sudden, now

1094
01:02:56,040 --> 01:02:58,680
Speaker 2: you have this right. But was in the law, but

1095
01:02:58,840 --> 01:03:01,560
Speaker 2: the culture did not follow the law. It was not

1096
01:03:01,720 --> 01:03:04,840
Speaker 2: one part the culture law. And so here theture it

1097
01:03:05,040 --> 01:03:08,120
Speaker 2: both of them matched, and now women know their rights

1098
01:03:08,480 --> 01:03:11,320
Speaker 2: and they also are having their rights upheld in the

1099
01:03:11,360 --> 01:03:15,040
Speaker 2: court of law and also in their communities. That's a

1100
01:03:15,120 --> 01:03:18,320
Speaker 2: good thing. That's where we spend the money. Also in

1101
01:03:18,800 --> 01:03:22,120
Speaker 2: what do you call it in Sri Lanka. Our partners there,

1102
01:03:22,200 --> 01:03:24,280
Speaker 2: what they have been working on is some of the

1103
01:03:24,400 --> 01:03:26,480
Speaker 2: many things that they work on. One of them had

1104
01:03:26,520 --> 01:03:29,320
Speaker 2: to deal with access to a personal hygiene product for

1105
01:03:29,440 --> 01:03:32,480
Speaker 2: women we're talking about and things like that. As it

1106
01:03:32,600 --> 01:03:35,720
Speaker 2: turned out, there was an outrageously high tax put on

1107
01:03:35,880 --> 01:03:39,040
Speaker 2: those products, so much at the final cost was almost

1108
01:03:39,080 --> 01:03:42,080
Speaker 2: out of reach for the everyday Sri Lankan moment. And

1109
01:03:42,200 --> 01:03:44,680
Speaker 2: so they've worked on those reforms to take down those

1110
01:03:45,000 --> 01:03:48,080
Speaker 2: you know, those taxes, so that the end product would

1111
01:03:48,120 --> 01:03:51,520
Speaker 2: become affordable for everybody. So here, my angie or friends

1112
01:03:51,520 --> 01:03:55,080
Speaker 2: would say, we don't have tamponds, let's ship them three tampons,

1113
01:03:55,880 --> 01:03:57,640
Speaker 2: And someone like me, we're saying, we don't want to

1114
01:03:57,680 --> 01:03:59,000
Speaker 2: have to rely on your free stuff for the rest

1115
01:03:59,040 --> 01:04:00,560
Speaker 2: of our lives. So what are we going to do?

1116
01:04:00,600 --> 01:04:02,960
Speaker 2: What's a sustainable way here? Yeah, the sustainable way is

1117
01:04:03,000 --> 01:04:05,760
Speaker 2: find out what the problem is and something about it.

1118
01:04:05,800 --> 01:04:08,200
Speaker 2: And that's what our partners did. This is Atlas. This

1119
01:04:08,440 --> 01:04:11,440
Speaker 2: is the organization and the members and the partners. I

1120
01:04:11,520 --> 01:04:13,600
Speaker 2: love so much everybody, but I have talked to there.

1121
01:04:13,680 --> 01:04:16,040
Speaker 2: I haven't talked to all the six partners but very

1122
01:04:16,760 --> 01:04:19,240
Speaker 2: but I know there, and I've been working with such

1123
01:04:19,320 --> 01:04:22,560
Speaker 2: amazing decent people who truly put themselves in the line

1124
01:04:23,640 --> 01:04:27,040
Speaker 2: in the most honorable way. And putting themselves in the

1125
01:04:27,120 --> 01:04:29,640
Speaker 2: line for these people is not about going and destroying

1126
01:04:29,640 --> 01:04:33,600
Speaker 2: somebody's property or throwing tomato at some painting and stuff

1127
01:04:33,680 --> 01:04:35,800
Speaker 2: like that. They're not doing that. They're doing the real

1128
01:04:35,960 --> 01:04:39,040
Speaker 2: hard work. So I see a piece like BS, I'm like,

1129
01:04:39,520 --> 01:04:41,800
Speaker 2: could you guys talk to us? And Amy. I will

1130
01:04:42,000 --> 01:04:44,200
Speaker 2: end this by saying, please, if you would want to

1131
01:04:44,360 --> 01:04:46,760
Speaker 2: come and be my guest. We have our annual gala

1132
01:04:47,120 --> 01:04:50,040
Speaker 2: every November. It is happening in mid November. It's New

1133
01:04:50,120 --> 01:04:54,280
Speaker 2: York City, and you will get to see these people,

1134
01:04:54,920 --> 01:04:58,560
Speaker 2: talk to them. You will hear because that year, during

1135
01:04:58,600 --> 01:05:01,680
Speaker 2: that time, we'll celebrate our best freedom fighters. We are

1136
01:05:01,720 --> 01:05:04,200
Speaker 2: supporting the people who are fighting for the freedom, for

1137
01:05:04,320 --> 01:05:07,320
Speaker 2: their freedoms, for the freedom to speak, for the freedom

1138
01:05:07,400 --> 01:05:08,320
Speaker 2: to build the business.

1139
01:05:08,640 --> 01:05:10,240
Speaker 1: Can I just say one more thing. I know we're

1140
01:05:10,400 --> 01:05:12,960
Speaker 1: getting really close to the time, but I just want

1141
01:05:13,000 --> 01:05:15,320
Speaker 1: to just say a couple of things. One, you know, look,

1142
01:05:15,760 --> 01:05:20,000
Speaker 1: criticizing something a couple of or three or six or

1143
01:05:20,080 --> 01:05:24,240
Speaker 1: whatever entities within a large network are doing is not,

1144
01:05:24,360 --> 01:05:27,640
Speaker 1: by any stretch saying that it's all bad and they're

1145
01:05:27,680 --> 01:05:29,680
Speaker 1: not doing any good. I know that there are good

1146
01:05:29,760 --> 01:05:33,120
Speaker 1: things being done as well. And on the systemic change thing,

1147
01:05:33,240 --> 01:05:35,760
Speaker 1: I mean, I would love to see something like the

1148
01:05:35,840 --> 01:05:40,120
Speaker 1: Atlas network getting involved in looking at you know, the

1149
01:05:40,200 --> 01:05:46,200
Speaker 1: way that bilateral trade agreements, for example, lock countries into

1150
01:05:46,440 --> 01:05:49,240
Speaker 1: bad contracts. That's like a big systemic thing.

1151
01:05:49,840 --> 01:05:50,160
Speaker 3: You are.

1152
01:05:50,800 --> 01:05:51,480
Speaker 1: That's amazing.

1153
01:05:51,600 --> 01:05:51,840
Speaker 4: You are.

1154
01:05:52,120 --> 01:05:53,920
Speaker 2: You have people who are doing working on all of

1155
01:05:54,000 --> 01:05:58,200
Speaker 2: that stuff. We are again where you see munism your out.

1156
01:05:58,320 --> 01:06:15,280
Speaker 1: Fighting popping in here again to say that I did

1157
01:06:15,440 --> 01:06:18,920
Speaker 1: look for examples of Atlas getting involved in reforming the

1158
01:06:19,040 --> 01:06:23,000
Speaker 1: investor state dispute system. This is the mechanism that most

1159
01:06:23,080 --> 01:06:28,040
Speaker 1: bilateral trade agreements and bilateral investment agreements provide for companies

1160
01:06:28,200 --> 01:06:33,280
Speaker 1: to effectively sue governments for any changes that impact their business.

1161
01:06:34,080 --> 01:06:36,200
Speaker 1: It's been used a lot to push back on human

1162
01:06:36,320 --> 01:06:40,760
Speaker 1: rights and environmental legislation. I couldn't find any examples of

1163
01:06:40,960 --> 01:06:44,280
Speaker 1: Atlas folks working on this issue, so I asked Magott

1164
01:06:44,320 --> 01:06:47,040
Speaker 1: to send me stuff or recommend someone that's working on it.

1165
01:06:47,600 --> 01:06:49,640
Speaker 1: I haven't heard back yet, but she's super busy, so

1166
01:06:49,720 --> 01:06:53,480
Speaker 1: I'm still hoping to hear very much, hoping that it's

1167
01:06:53,560 --> 01:06:55,280
Speaker 1: true that they are working to reform this.

1168
01:06:58,520 --> 01:07:03,480
Speaker 2: So that's my point. You know, mister big oil company

1169
01:07:03,520 --> 01:07:05,160
Speaker 2: could come and say, oh, we're giving you money to

1170
01:07:05,200 --> 01:07:07,160
Speaker 2: do we're giving your money because we're at a split.

1171
01:07:07,400 --> 01:07:09,120
Speaker 2: What we're going to do the work. The work we

1172
01:07:09,240 --> 01:07:11,320
Speaker 2: do is work we do, and there is all the

1173
01:07:11,360 --> 01:07:14,080
Speaker 2: people I told you about. That's where the money goes to.

1174
01:07:14,200 --> 01:07:17,720
Speaker 2: We're supporting these initiatives. So for me, it's just we

1175
01:07:17,840 --> 01:07:19,920
Speaker 2: are addressing all of that. If that's something that you

1176
01:07:20,000 --> 01:07:22,760
Speaker 2: pet interested in, I can find some of the friends

1177
01:07:23,200 --> 01:07:25,160
Speaker 2: on this and also even on the climate. You know,

1178
01:07:25,320 --> 01:07:28,160
Speaker 2: right now we have this coalition of people who are

1179
01:07:28,320 --> 01:07:31,520
Speaker 2: trying to think about, you know, some of the best

1180
01:07:31,600 --> 01:07:34,680
Speaker 2: ways to address you know, because yeah, people are going

1181
01:07:34,760 --> 01:07:37,680
Speaker 2: to say, look, is it always a better idea to

1182
01:07:38,800 --> 01:07:42,320
Speaker 2: be a plumate friendly? Absolutely, And I think you will

1183
01:07:42,360 --> 01:07:45,240
Speaker 2: say people like that among us who say that it's

1184
01:07:45,360 --> 01:07:47,200
Speaker 2: if we can do better, let's do better, which we

1185
01:07:47,360 --> 01:07:50,800
Speaker 2: always have a responsibility to do better. So is there

1186
01:07:50,840 --> 01:07:53,040
Speaker 2: a better way for the environment? Is there better ways

1187
01:07:53,080 --> 01:07:54,240
Speaker 2: for human rights? Is a better way for this?

1188
01:07:54,440 --> 01:07:54,600
Speaker 5: For that?

1189
01:07:55,120 --> 01:07:57,960
Speaker 2: Yes? There is, let's find let's find out. So that's

1190
01:07:58,040 --> 01:08:17,640
Speaker 2: our commitment. But Amy, it seems to me like you

1191
01:08:17,720 --> 01:08:20,880
Speaker 2: know the fact that you're the only one who decided

1192
01:08:20,880 --> 01:08:23,200
Speaker 2: to speak with me when they asked the other free

1193
01:08:23,520 --> 01:08:25,640
Speaker 2: You're the only one and then you come here and

1194
01:08:26,160 --> 01:08:28,519
Speaker 2: I'm not seeing you trying to score a point or

1195
01:08:28,560 --> 01:08:31,160
Speaker 2: anything like that. I really appreciate that. It tells me

1196
01:08:31,280 --> 01:08:33,600
Speaker 2: that you know. You also could agree with me that

1197
01:08:33,680 --> 01:08:36,519
Speaker 2: if you went went back and rewrite this piece, Amy,

1198
01:08:36,560 --> 01:08:38,240
Speaker 2: you can't with a straight face tell me that this

1199
01:08:38,400 --> 01:08:40,800
Speaker 2: was not a hit piece, meaning that this was not

1200
01:08:40,960 --> 01:08:44,320
Speaker 2: about you, not just focusing on or saying it's not

1201
01:08:44,400 --> 01:08:46,400
Speaker 2: even focusing. If it was stuff I was reading in

1202
01:08:46,479 --> 01:08:49,360
Speaker 2: here me who is inside the organization, I could see

1203
01:08:49,400 --> 01:08:52,400
Speaker 2: that I would be just like you two. I would say, Amy, look,

1204
01:08:52,720 --> 01:08:56,040
Speaker 2: not everybody's perfect. Yeah, we trade us blah blah blah. Listen,

1205
01:08:56,640 --> 01:08:58,320
Speaker 2: I would have trust, I would have and the day

1206
01:08:58,360 --> 01:09:02,000
Speaker 2: I see something tooth. But the point is this piece

1207
01:09:02,200 --> 01:09:07,599
Speaker 2: right here, I think is not representative off the reality.

1208
01:09:07,720 --> 01:09:10,559
Speaker 2: I think it was written in a very one sided way.

1209
01:09:11,200 --> 01:09:14,160
Speaker 2: But based on the conversation we had, it seems to

1210
01:09:14,240 --> 01:09:16,280
Speaker 2: me like you would be the type of person who says,

1211
01:09:16,280 --> 01:09:20,639
Speaker 2: you know what, my god, I heard it, and fine,

1212
01:09:20,680 --> 01:09:23,800
Speaker 2: but I've heard you so yeah, and by the way,

1213
01:09:24,280 --> 01:09:29,960
Speaker 2: I agree with you totally. I sooner appreciate you taking

1214
01:09:30,040 --> 01:09:31,160
Speaker 2: the time to talk to me.

1215
01:09:31,560 --> 01:09:36,320
Speaker 1: Well, actually, I do one thing that you know, makes

1216
01:09:36,360 --> 01:09:39,960
Speaker 1: people use the words like shadowy. I'm sorry, is the

1217
01:09:40,080 --> 01:09:43,559
Speaker 1: lack of transparency around funding. So, you know, I would

1218
01:09:43,640 --> 01:09:47,280
Speaker 1: like encourage think tanks in general, and I say that

1219
01:09:47,400 --> 01:09:50,040
Speaker 1: about the left leaning think tanks as well. I don't

1220
01:09:50,120 --> 01:09:54,600
Speaker 1: understand why these entities exist. The whole point is to

1221
01:09:55,040 --> 01:10:00,840
Speaker 1: shape public conversation and ultimately shape public policy, international negotiations,

1222
01:10:00,840 --> 01:10:02,960
Speaker 1: all that kind of stuff. I think it's good for

1223
01:10:03,080 --> 01:10:06,920
Speaker 1: people to know who's behind those things. And like I said,

1224
01:10:07,040 --> 01:10:09,560
Speaker 1: across the political spectrum, I don't have any love for

1225
01:10:09,960 --> 01:10:13,519
Speaker 1: the lefty NGOs either. The appreciate bad I appreciate that.

1226
01:10:13,760 --> 01:10:14,320
Speaker 1: I appreciate it.

1227
01:10:14,400 --> 01:10:16,639
Speaker 2: You just said, I appreciate it, and I would tell

1228
01:10:16,640 --> 01:10:19,040
Speaker 2: you that as anybody who's willing to get the record,

1229
01:10:19,120 --> 01:10:20,839
Speaker 2: we will put them on the record. You know, donors,

1230
01:10:20,880 --> 01:10:23,800
Speaker 2: but you know how sometimes in your sight, and I

1231
01:10:23,840 --> 01:10:26,680
Speaker 2: think the reason why that is is because people are

1232
01:10:26,720 --> 01:10:29,200
Speaker 2: sick entitled of being attacked. Quite frankly, I'm sure they

1233
01:10:29,240 --> 01:10:32,160
Speaker 2: get tired of being attacked. So maybe if we had

1234
01:10:32,240 --> 01:10:34,640
Speaker 2: more of the commitment to focus on the type of

1235
01:10:34,840 --> 01:10:38,560
Speaker 2: work that's being done, you know, or who gave what,

1236
01:10:39,160 --> 01:10:41,600
Speaker 2: maybe donors would be a little bit more you know,

1237
01:10:41,920 --> 01:10:43,880
Speaker 2: feeling free to put something out there. And also some

1238
01:10:43,960 --> 01:10:48,240
Speaker 2: people just even without even being worried about, you know,

1239
01:10:48,600 --> 01:10:52,680
Speaker 2: being attacked or whatever. Some people are just discreet. So

1240
01:10:52,920 --> 01:10:54,800
Speaker 2: but I think some people are decreed. But I think

1241
01:10:54,920 --> 01:10:57,080
Speaker 2: many people who are not putting their names out there.

1242
01:10:57,479 --> 01:10:59,760
Speaker 2: It might have to do with this polarization where you

1243
01:11:00,080 --> 01:11:03,599
Speaker 2: do if you don't. I sense in you somebody who

1244
01:11:03,720 --> 01:11:06,000
Speaker 2: wants to see a better world, and I want to

1245
01:11:06,040 --> 01:11:08,519
Speaker 2: see a better world. I think if we can agree

1246
01:11:08,560 --> 01:11:11,280
Speaker 2: on that and work from there, it might mean something different.

1247
01:11:11,520 --> 01:11:14,800
Speaker 2: So I would love to keep these conversations going. And

1248
01:11:15,280 --> 01:11:17,320
Speaker 2: if you want to talk to anybody on our side

1249
01:11:17,360 --> 01:11:20,360
Speaker 2: and find out all of that, please let me know.

1250
01:11:20,600 --> 01:11:23,000
Speaker 1: I would love to keep talking. I have like a

1251
01:11:23,080 --> 01:11:25,519
Speaker 1: lot more questions, and it's great that you're.

1252
01:11:25,520 --> 01:11:29,360
Speaker 2: Open to I'm very I'm very open totally. I thank you,

1253
01:11:30,000 --> 01:11:32,280
Speaker 2: Thank you, have a good rest of your day, you too,

1254
01:11:32,360 --> 01:11:32,680
Speaker 2: Bye bye.

1255
01:11:39,320 --> 01:11:43,200
Speaker 1: That's it for this time again, kind of a massive conversation.

1256
01:11:44,880 --> 01:11:47,680
Speaker 1: Very curious to hear your thoughts. Next week, I'm going

1257
01:11:47,760 --> 01:11:49,640
Speaker 1: to bring you another one of these, this time with

1258
01:11:49,880 --> 01:11:53,679
Speaker 1: someone who has a very different viewpoint on things. Rihanna

1259
01:11:53,840 --> 01:11:59,400
Speaker 1: gunn Right. She's a policy analyst, with the Roosevelt Institute.

1260
01:12:00,120 --> 01:12:03,200
Speaker 1: She was one of the original creators of the Green

1261
01:12:03,320 --> 01:12:07,680
Speaker 1: New Deal way back when, and she's been thinking a

1262
01:12:07,840 --> 01:12:12,200
Speaker 1: lot about how permitting reform and energy transition in the

1263
01:12:12,439 --> 01:12:17,840
Speaker 1: US is leaving out people of color. Come back for

1264
01:12:18,000 --> 01:12:22,200
Speaker 1: that conversation, Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time.