Speaker 1: Episode four seventy is episode two thirty Negotiating Medical Bills
Speaker 1: with Doctor Vergie bright Ellington.
Speaker 2: Welcome to the Frugal Friends podcast, where you'll learn to
Speaker 2: save money, embrace simplicity, and live your life here your
Speaker 2: hosts Jen and Jill.
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Frugal Friends Podcast. Happy Christmas Eve, Happy
Speaker 1: Hanukah Eve.
Speaker 3: My name is Jen, my name is Jill, and.
Speaker 1: We are re airing our probably this year, our most
Speaker 1: recommended episode. It's the one we personally have told so
Speaker 1: many people about in the last I guess two years,
Speaker 1: because that's when it aired, was two years ago, and
Speaker 1: it's definitely been the one that we've recommended the most
Speaker 1: on negotiating medical bills.
Speaker 3: It's such a practical need that we all have, are
Speaker 3: currently facing, or will face. This is one of the
Speaker 3: episodes that I've recommended to just personal friends of mine.
Speaker 3: I'll be like, you don't have to listen to my
Speaker 3: podcast on an ongoing basis, but here's a really helpful one.
Speaker 3: When people have questions about it, I just think it's
Speaker 3: so so tangible, useful. So we're putting it at the
Speaker 3: top of the list again so you don't have to
Speaker 3: dig through the archives. But first, this episode is brought
Speaker 3: to you by.
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Speaker 1: a one year spending plan.
Speaker 3: And we are recording those two. So if you can't
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Speaker 3: youlovebook dot com, you'd still have access to the content.
Speaker 3: So if having a full year MEIL plan and having
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Speaker 3: useful for you this time of year, turing into a
Speaker 3: new year, then then at least at least buy the book.
Speaker 1: You got both of those things and a book for
Speaker 1: twenty five dollars. That feels like a good gift. So,
Speaker 1: speaking of saving money and ways to lower your expenses
Speaker 1: medical bills, we have done several episodes on negotiating because
Speaker 1: it is a really effective way to lower what you
Speaker 1: pay and also increase what you earn. We've got episode
Speaker 1: four forty nine how Women Can Negotiate Better with Catherine Valentine,
Speaker 1: and then episode three thirty nine how to negoti and
Speaker 1: Save Lots of money. Those are two of our most
Speaker 1: recent negotiation episodes. But you can search Negotiate Frugal Friends
Speaker 1: on your podcast player find different episodes also on our
Speaker 1: website Frugal Friends podcast dot com. But this is such
Speaker 1: a great episode, full of great facts and tips and
Speaker 1: I can't wait for you to hear it.
Speaker 3: Let's get into it.
Speaker 1: Doctor Virgie, Welcome to the Frugal Friends Podcast. It is
Speaker 1: a honor and pleasure to have you on.
Speaker 6: Yeah what, ladies, It is my honor and pleasure. And
Speaker 6: I've been following you guys for a few years. I've
Speaker 6: been on your list serve and I'm trying to think
Speaker 6: of how many years has been, but I know it
Speaker 6: was like way before the pandemic. So when I saw
Speaker 6: you guys have a podcast, I'm like, Hey, the world
Speaker 6: is small, this is awesome. Life is good.
Speaker 3: So we're just fanning on each other, but mostly we
Speaker 3: are here to highlight you, doctor Virgie, your knowledge and
Speaker 3: experience what you have to share with our listeners today.
Speaker 3: So thanks for being here and sharing what you know.
Speaker 6: Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so let's dive in. You are an expert on
Speaker 1: medical billing and medical debts. So I know the first
Speaker 1: thing people will usually get is a surprise charge on
Speaker 1: their bills. That's happened so often. How should people handle
Speaker 1: surprise charges on their medical bills?
Speaker 6: So surprise charge, we called surprise billing is actually a
Speaker 6: formal description. There's an actual The term surprise bill or
Speaker 6: surprise billing refers an actuality to cases in which you
Speaker 6: have insurance and you go to get care at a
Speaker 6: facility and maybe you had the option it was an
Speaker 6: elective thing and you had a knee surgery had planned,
Speaker 6: or unfortunately, if you had an emergency and you go
Speaker 6: to a facility and you know that they take your
Speaker 6: insurance when you don't have any choice of the physicians
Speaker 6: that are involved with your care. Physicians that you have
Speaker 6: no choice in choosing, like the er doc, the anesthesiologist.
Speaker 6: They're radiologists who reads the X ray of they're broken
Speaker 6: to determine if your bonu is broken. If you have
Speaker 6: the elect of surgery, they take tissue, they send it
Speaker 6: off anything that's taken from the human body. They'll send
Speaker 6: it off to pathology for a physician to look at
Speaker 6: it under the microscope to make sure it's it's always
Speaker 6: benign meaning non canceros versus they don't see any cancer cells.
Speaker 6: Those are all folks. Those are all physicians that you
Speaker 6: don't have any choice in picking. And if they are
Speaker 6: out of network, that means that they'll send you a
Speaker 6: bill for their whole full retail price and you're stuck
Speaker 6: with it. So this has been an issue because there
Speaker 6: are business models. There are there's private equity, there are
Speaker 6: corporations whose business model is to say, Okay, we're going
Speaker 6: to hire all these docs who you have no choice
Speaker 6: in picking when you go to the hospital or you
Speaker 6: need care, and we're going to charge the full price,
Speaker 6: which is often tends and tends and I can't explain
Speaker 6: how outrageous the numbers are when they don't take insurance.
Speaker 6: They take no insurances, that's their business model. And you
Speaker 6: go in thinking that you've done all of your research
Speaker 6: to make sure that you're in network with this facility,
Speaker 6: but they hire physicians who are not. That results in
Speaker 6: a surprise bill.
Speaker 1: So how do we when we do we have any
Speaker 1: power over that?
Speaker 3: Either before or after?
Speaker 6: Yep, the great news is as of January first of
Speaker 6: this year, a bill was passed it's now federal law
Speaker 6: where if you have insurance and you go to an
Speaker 6: in network provider and you are given sent a bill
Speaker 6: by other physicians that are involved with your care who
Speaker 6: do not accept your insurance, they have to negotiate directly
Speaker 6: with the insurance company to work out a payment, you know,
Speaker 6: workout is it going to be the in network rate
Speaker 6: that they usually pay, or are they going to pay
Speaker 6: a little bit of a premium. Whatever it is, the
Speaker 6: patient is out of the middle. So until now, until
Speaker 6: January first of this year, there are a few states
Speaker 6: that had you know, bills were in that state that
Speaker 6: you could not get a surprise bill. Well, it was
Speaker 6: illegal in that state to charge patients who you if
Speaker 6: they're out of network, if you charge them out of
Speaker 6: network prices. But now it's a federal law. So that's
Speaker 6: how you protect yourself. You make sure that if you've
Speaker 6: gotten a bill from you go to get care and
Speaker 6: you've gotten a bill where it says, you know what,
Speaker 6: we're not in network with your provider, well with your
Speaker 6: insurance rather, well, not my problem anymore. As a January one,
Speaker 6: twenty twenty two, you're going to put them in touch.
Speaker 6: Then they know this the providers know this, they have
Speaker 6: to deal with your insurance directly and leave the patient
Speaker 6: out instead of having the patient holding the bag, which
Speaker 6: has been the case for eons until now.
Speaker 3: So if you get that bill, if we get that
Speaker 3: bill in the mail and we realize this, we've now
Speaker 3: listened to doctor Virgie and we know a bill has
Speaker 3: passed and we're not responsible for this. Would that just
Speaker 3: be us reminding the provider of that law and please
Speaker 3: talk to my insurance company.
Speaker 6: Yeah, talk to my insurance company. You know they say,
Speaker 6: comp to the hand, talk to my insurance company. I'm out. So,
Speaker 6: you know, I really like to use this as an
Speaker 6: opportunity to talk about there's a reason why. This is
Speaker 6: the reason why there's only one right way to pay
Speaker 6: a medical bill, and that's because usually, unfortunately, I would
Speaker 6: say nine times out of ten, a medical care facility
Speaker 6: will send you a bill that's not a real bill,
Speaker 6: and they do that because they know it works. We
Speaker 6: panic and we'll figure out how to pay this off.
Speaker 6: So I'm going to take you through the one right
Speaker 6: way to pay a medical bill. There's three steps. And
Speaker 6: in this process, Jillian, we're going to say, Okay, you
Speaker 6: know what, by doing this process of the one right
Speaker 6: way of paying medical bill. Going through the three steps,
Speaker 6: we're not going to get caught by any tricks like
Speaker 6: surprise billing. So it's the one right way to pay
Speaker 6: a medical bill will protect you from, among other things,
Speaker 6: surprise billing. So the one thing you want to do
Speaker 6: when you get up any medical bill is to look
Speaker 6: to make sure that it's an accurate or itemized bill.
Speaker 6: And what I'm calling now a real bill. A real
Speaker 6: bill has what's called CPT codes. CPT codes are just
Speaker 6: like bar codes. When you go into a store. Every
Speaker 6: product has a bar code, right you take that product,
Speaker 6: you run it through the scanner and it'll tell you.
Speaker 6: It'll all identify you some description of the product and
Speaker 6: the price that the facility is charging for that particular product.
Speaker 6: Same thing with CPT codes. Every single medical service in
Speaker 6: the United States has ACPT code. And I won't worry
Speaker 6: you with what CPT stands for. There are people who
Speaker 6: work in the insurance company I know for years and
Speaker 6: they can't remember what CPT and you know, it has
Speaker 6: a long name, you know, common procedural terminology, which is
Speaker 6: why we don't use We just call it CPT codes.
Speaker 6: And I was talking to a radio host a couple
Speaker 6: of months ago, and he says, you know what we
Speaker 6: should call it can't pay this. That's what CPTs anyway.
Speaker 6: So oh yeah, right, So you get a medical bill
Speaker 6: and you make sure it has CPT codes at the top.
Speaker 6: You'll see CPT at the top and under it. CPT
Speaker 6: codes are usually like a five digit number describing a service.
Speaker 6: So that's what you're going to do. You're going to
Speaker 6: the first step is call your provider and get a
Speaker 6: real bill. So what I've been talking about this and
Speaker 6: some one of those things that's been blugging me this week,
Speaker 6: I'm realizing, you know, these bills that we often get
Speaker 6: that consumers, the American patients, the public gets are just
Speaker 6: not bills. They're kind of like wishful thinking. They're like, oh,
Speaker 6: maybe they'll pay it if we send them this with
Speaker 6: no CPT codes and it has a description and that's it.
Speaker 6: You know, they think that it's a real bill, but
Speaker 6: it's not. So first step always call to make sure
Speaker 6: you get a real bill, which is an itemized bill
Speaker 6: basically fancy name for a bill with CPT codes, and
Speaker 6: that takes you to the second step. When you get
Speaker 6: that bill with CPT codes. You're going to take it
Speaker 6: and google the codes to make sure that each of
Speaker 6: the codes describes the service that you think you got
Speaker 6: or services that you think you received during your stay
Speaker 6: or during your visit. Great, once you get those codes
Speaker 6: will come up as a description and awesome, and you're
Speaker 6: making sure that makes sense in terms of what you got,
Speaker 6: makeing sure you're not getting double bill that kind of thing,
Speaker 6: or bill for something you know that you didn't get.
Speaker 6: Then you're going to take those codes and you're going
Speaker 6: to continue to google, but this time you're going to
Speaker 6: google what Medicare pays for each of those codes for
Speaker 6: each of those services. So Medicare is federal government care healthcare,
Speaker 6: and CMS which stands for Centers for Medicaid and Medicare Services,
Speaker 6: has a standard list of things that they pay for
Speaker 6: each CPT code. Right. The thing is is that I
Speaker 6: consider Medicare the basic flat rate. So there are a
Speaker 6: lot of people who do this kind of work, meaning
Speaker 6: trying to help people or struggling with medical bills, educating
Speaker 6: the American public in terms of medical financial literacy. And
Speaker 6: they say, well, okay, we look this up, but we're
Speaker 6: going to agree to pay two times a Medicare rate.
Speaker 6: That takes us down to step three. I disagree. I
Speaker 6: think start at Medicare. Start at the Medicare price. That's
Speaker 6: the point where you're going to negotiate. Don't go straight
Speaker 6: to negotiation without doing the first two steps because you're
Speaker 6: being overcharged. Their retail rates are often three hundred to
Speaker 6: five hundred percent more than what Medicare pays. And so
Speaker 6: when I say, you know what, I start at the
Speaker 6: Medicare rate. When I say step three, that's the number
Speaker 6: you're going to start when you call back the medical
Speaker 6: billing department or the patient accounts department of the facility
Speaker 6: and say, you know what, this is what I can afford.
Speaker 6: These are the services I got, this is what I'm
Speaker 6: able to pay. I think this is fair from my
Speaker 6: research and the care that I received. Now, some folks
Speaker 6: like I was saying, thinks, you know, I think that
Speaker 6: two times a Medicare rate is a good place to start.
Speaker 6: And that's because if you call some of these facilities,
Speaker 6: you're going to get pushed back. And the general thought
Speaker 6: is the general push is, well, if everybody paid Medicare
Speaker 6: rates or paid the Medicare prices, we wouldn't be able
Speaker 6: to stay in business, we wouldn't be able to provide
Speaker 6: care to everyone. I'm not so sure about that, and
Speaker 6: even so, not my problem, not my problem. If I
Speaker 6: have a budget which takes me to step three, you're
Speaker 6: going to call back the provider's office, billing department, patient
Speaker 6: accounts office and ask for number one an interest free
Speaker 6: payment plan that fits your budget. And this is really
Speaker 6: important because people get upset when they think about how
Speaker 6: long it's going to take them to pay off a bill.
Speaker 6: They said, oh my gosh, it's going to take me
Speaker 6: five years, seven years, ten years, and so what right?
Speaker 6: So the reason why you make it. You're going to
Speaker 6: get probably pushed back when you call back the department
Speaker 6: billing department and say, hey, this is what I'm willing
Speaker 6: to pay. You know, I need an interest free payment plan.
Speaker 6: They're going to say, you know, well, this is a
Speaker 6: ten thousand dollars bill and you know you're paying is
Speaker 6: turn in and fifty dollars a month. It's just going
Speaker 6: to take us forever to pay it off. Can you
Speaker 6: do you know we discussed this too. That's just too
Speaker 6: little and this will take us too long to get paid.
Speaker 6: Can you do three fifty. No, I can only do
Speaker 6: two fifty. And the reason why you want to stick
Speaker 6: with that is because if you make an agreement with
Speaker 6: the care facility, it doesn't get reported to credit agencies, right,
Speaker 6: It's it's blind. It doesn't impact your credit report at all,
Speaker 6: which is awesome. But if you agree to any payment
Speaker 6: plan and you can't make a payment, they will automatically
Speaker 6: really quickly, and surprise how fast they do it. They'll
Speaker 6: send it right to collections, to deck, They'll sell it
Speaker 6: to a debt collections for pennies on the dollar. So
Speaker 6: you may say, okay, well why wouldn't they why would
Speaker 6: they agree to take so little over a long period
Speaker 6: of time? And I say the reasons while you want
Speaker 6: to stick with your budget when you're calling the facility
Speaker 6: and talking about the payment plan that you need, it's because,
Speaker 6: as they say, a little bit of something is better
Speaker 6: than all of nothing, right, they know it's cheaper, you know,
Speaker 6: to take it, you know, instead of having to chase
Speaker 6: you potentially and or have to sell it if they
Speaker 6: have to chase you long enough for pennies on the dollar,
Speaker 6: you know, to a collections agency. So those are the
Speaker 6: three steps for the one right way to pay a
Speaker 6: medical bill.
Speaker 3: That's so hopeful. And at the end of the day,
Speaker 3: you have already gone through the first two steps where
Speaker 3: you are equipped with knowledge, You've been able to get
Speaker 3: rid of any bills or itemized line pieces that you
Speaker 3: are not actually obligated to pay, You've lowered the rate,
Speaker 3: and then if it is still too much for you
Speaker 3: to be able to pay outright that interest free portion.
Speaker 3: Of course, not of us like having those payments, but
Speaker 3: if it's interest free, that makes a big difference, especially
Speaker 3: as it concerns healthcare things that we need to stay alive.
Speaker 3: We're not just talking about some luxury item exactly.
Speaker 6: It's not consumer debt. Yeah, and you know the current
Speaker 6: administration is realizing, hey, you know what, we need to
Speaker 6: treat it as such medical debt. Medical bills are not
Speaker 6: a choice. Student loans at the end of the day,
Speaker 6: is a choice. But you know, none of us ask
Speaker 6: to get here, right, none of us has to be born.
Speaker 6: And once we get here, we're living creatures, and we
Speaker 6: get sick, things happen, we have accidents, and so it's
Speaker 6: not consumer debt. And I'm glad that the administration is
Speaker 6: trying to teach folks that, hey, we need to treat
Speaker 6: medical bills differently than consumer bills, medical debt different than consumer.
Speaker 3: Debt well, and it carries so much anxiety because not
Speaker 3: only are you managing physical health both problems, but also
Speaker 3: financial difficulties too, depending on the amount of money that's
Speaker 3: owed and whether or not insurance is covering it or
Speaker 3: you're able to pay. And so I think we've got
Speaker 3: a couple of layers here of just receiving a bill
Speaker 3: that might be overwhelming that we can't really pay, but
Speaker 3: then that can stack up to medical debt as you're
Speaker 3: describing here. And I know even before we got on
Speaker 3: you were even beginning to talk about preventative measures, So
Speaker 3: talking about preventative but as well as maybe even reactive
Speaker 3: because sometimes we find ourselves there. What are some of
Speaker 3: your tips when we are deep into some medical debt?
Speaker 3: What can be done?
Speaker 6: One of the things you know, I like to you know,
Speaker 6: remindfulks about is that you know it's not your fault,
Speaker 6: and you think that, oh my gosh, it's scary, it's complicated.
Speaker 6: You know, I'm screwed. What am I going to do?
Speaker 6: I'm going to have to declare bankruptcy. I can't pay this,
Speaker 6: and many people have. So the first thing I tell
Speaker 6: folks is that it's not your fault, and yes, there
Speaker 6: are things you can do, so yes, go through and
Speaker 6: we'll let me just say one more thing. The reason
Speaker 6: why we also panic is because an often panic in
Speaker 6: addition to all of this, is that this happens to
Speaker 6: us when we're at our most vulnerable, when we're sick,
Speaker 6: in pain, scared, afraid, unable to work. You know, whether
Speaker 6: we have insurance or not, most of us get for
Speaker 6: our insurance and our employers. If we miss enough work
Speaker 6: because of the illness or the accident, we'll lose our
Speaker 6: job in there for our insurance. So that there's so multiple,
Speaker 6: many reasons why folks in this country get taken advantage
Speaker 6: of by the system this, you know, healthcare industry and
Speaker 6: our country for profit healthcare industry in our country. So
Speaker 6: what I tell people number one is to step back
Speaker 6: and if you're able to pull all of your bills,
Speaker 6: don't ignore the bills. You know, if you can be
Speaker 6: ahead of it and call them first, the billing department first,
Speaker 6: as I explain, and go back and ask for real bills.
Speaker 6: And a real bill has a CPT code. The other
Speaker 6: thing I tell folks is to make sure that you're
Speaker 6: not confusing a real bill with because you're not confusing
Speaker 6: a real bill with if you have insurance and explanation
Speaker 6: of benefits or an EOB. And I've gotten multiple calls
Speaker 6: and examples of where folks, so I got this bill
Speaker 6: from my insurance company. No, you're not going to get
Speaker 6: a bill from your insurance company. What you received is
Speaker 6: a notice of what they paid and or what they're
Speaker 6: saying they're not going to pay, and what you're going
Speaker 6: to be responsible for, and you're gonna have to deal
Speaker 6: with the provider yourself. So I make sure that I
Speaker 6: ask folks to pull out anything that says Usually it'll
Speaker 6: say it right across the front page and subsequent pages,
Speaker 6: this is not a bill. Those are EOB, your explanation
Speaker 6: of benefits. So pull that out and then pull out
Speaker 6: the actual bills that don't have that's at the top,
Speaker 6: that's not from your insurance company. If you have insurance
Speaker 6: and call a provider, ask for the real bill with
Speaker 6: CPT codes, and then if it's less than I tell
Speaker 6: people this all the time, if it's less than six
Speaker 6: months out from the services that you received. You can
Speaker 6: still go back and apply for financial assistance and in
Speaker 6: some cases even Medicaid. Depending on the state that you're in,
Speaker 6: you can go back and apply for Medicaid, or if
Speaker 6: your income is low enough, sit for bills that are
Speaker 6: six months less than six months old. So that's one option.
Speaker 6: Often we're kind of in between that we're not at
Speaker 6: the point where we have to say, Okay, you know what,
Speaker 6: I have zero income, I need to consider applying for medicaid.
Speaker 6: Most of us are in the position where we've gone
Speaker 6: to a healthcare facility that is nonprofit. Most of the
Speaker 6: majority of healthcare facilities hospital medical systems in this country
Speaker 6: are nonprofit. And I stop calling it nonprofit, I call
Speaker 6: it tax exempt because they really have a lot of surplus.
Speaker 6: Let's put it that way, right, exactly right. So sixty
Speaker 6: five percent of hospitals in the United States are tax
Speaker 6: exempt aka nonprofit, and in exchange for the bi federal
Speaker 6: law for tax exempt nonprofit status, they provide sliding scale,
Speaker 6: income based discounts to the public in the community that
Speaker 6: they serve. So what this means is many bills that
Speaker 6: you get if you just go to them and say, look,
Speaker 6: call up the office and say, look, this is the
Speaker 6: research I got, the real bill with CPT codes of
Speaker 6: researched it. This is what I can afford to pay.
Speaker 6: And for how long you call them up and say, yeah,
Speaker 6: you know, this is what I can do. You'd be
Speaker 6: surprised that, although by law they're supposed to make it
Speaker 6: post it publicly nonprofit facilities, that of what the process
Speaker 6: is to apply for financial aid. And a lot of
Speaker 6: people don't like that term financial aid, you know, but
Speaker 6: you know they think of it as charity care as
Speaker 6: different euphemisms and right, charity care, financial assistance, financial aid.
Speaker 6: It's all income based discounts. And if you have you'd
Speaker 6: be surprised at the high income you can have. If
Speaker 6: your bill is high enough, you may able to get
Speaker 6: it completely wipe gock just based on your income. I've
Speaker 6: seen a bill as little as I think it was
Speaker 6: like thirteen thousand dollars. I don't mean little, but compared
Speaker 6: to their income. The person have like one hundred and
Speaker 6: fifty thousand dollars gross income that they showed on you know,
Speaker 6: you're going to be asked to show documents and things
Speaker 6: and based on their income. And the bill bill was
Speaker 6: so large in relationship to their income. The whole thing,
Speaker 6: the whole bill was wiped away.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 6: Wow, Now if you had not right, if you had
Speaker 6: not been aware that you have rights as if you
Speaker 6: went to a non profit facility, tax exempt facility, yeah,
Speaker 6: you have. We have options. So just because the majority
Speaker 6: of healthcare facilities in our country are nonprofit, sixty five
Speaker 6: percent of them, this is an option. Now, someone brought
Speaker 6: something to my attention. They see that even for profit
Speaker 6: facilities have financial assistance programs. You know, if you don't ask,
Speaker 6: you don't get right, So always always ask.
Speaker 3: A few things are standing out to me and what
Speaker 3: you're describing here. First of all, knowing what you can pay,
Speaker 3: of course, once you've realized what you are actually responsible for,
Speaker 3: because sometimes they might charge you for things you're not
Speaker 3: responsible for. But then once you figure out this is
Speaker 3: what I actually oh, going to them with a number,
Speaker 3: which is classic negotiation tip for any type of thing
Speaker 3: that we're trying to negotiate. Having that number, not just
Speaker 3: going and saying I don't know, what can you do
Speaker 3: and then going from there, but also recognizing that this
Speaker 3: is available to us, and there is no shame in
Speaker 3: pushing for lower rates because you might not actually have
Speaker 3: to pay that high rate, and why would you if
Speaker 3: you're not able to if the organization, the company, the
Speaker 3: hospital has ability to give it to you at a
Speaker 3: discounted rate. I think the thing that stands out to
Speaker 3: me is just the time and energy that all of
Speaker 3: this takes, the know how of going through the paperwork,
Speaker 3: of finding the phone numbers, of sitting on hold, of
Speaker 3: doing the research. And it's worth it, and we've seen
Speaker 3: that it's worth it, but especially when you might be
Speaker 3: going through a time that is physically demanding or exhausting
Speaker 3: and you've got various medical canncerns that I think that
Speaker 3: that's a it's a big deal and and I don't
Speaker 3: know if there's much that can be said or a
Speaker 3: magic wand that we can wave over that, but community
Speaker 3: hopefully someone to sit by your side as you're going
Speaker 3: through all this paperwork. But yeah, there's there's a couple
Speaker 3: of layers here.
Speaker 6: Yeah, the most difficult about this is that this happens
Speaker 6: to us. This is done to us, not by accident,
Speaker 6: just because they know they can get away with it, frankly,
Speaker 6: and in addition, they know they can get away with
Speaker 6: it more likely because it's when we're at our most vulnerable.
Speaker 6: You know, we're sick, we're tired, we're scared, we're in pain,
Speaker 6: we're grieving, you know, and why do they do it? Well?
Speaker 6: It works, It works. I was talking actually with my husband,
Speaker 6: who's a thirty five year law enforcement veteran, and you know,
Speaker 6: we talk about you know, laws, federal laws versus state laws,
Speaker 6: that kind of thing. And I said to him, I said,
Speaker 6: you know what, I've been going through a lot of
Speaker 6: medical bill mistakes and going through, you know, looking at
Speaker 6: bills and saying, well, this is a mistake. And if
Speaker 6: you can imagine eighty to ninety percent of every medical
Speaker 6: bill and generating this country has mistakes, and if you
Speaker 6: can imagine, they're not going to be in the favor
Speaker 6: of the patient, right, They're going to be in the
Speaker 6: favor of the provider and or the insurance company. I
Speaker 6: was talking to them and I said, you know, it
Speaker 6: just hit me. Why should consumers patients be given bills
Speaker 6: that don't have CPT codes. If there is zero insurance
Speaker 6: company in this country that would ever ever even consider
Speaker 6: a bill submit it from the provider that doesn't have
Speaker 6: CPT codes, So why do they generate them and send
Speaker 6: them to the patient. Why do they sip? Why do
Speaker 6: they generate two different kinds of bills? One that's not
Speaker 6: a real bill. I call it a summary bill. Sometimes
Speaker 6: I'll call it a detailed summary bill. It doesn't matter.
Speaker 6: It doesn't have CPT codes. It's not a real bill.
Speaker 6: Why generate something separate that you just send the patients
Speaker 6: if it's not the same thing that you send the
Speaker 6: insurance companies, And insurance companies you always send if you
Speaker 6: want to get paid as a provider, you're going to
Speaker 6: send the insurance companies bills with CPT codes, right, So
Speaker 6: why do we generate Why do providers, healthcare facilities generate
Speaker 6: bills that have no CPT codes to patients? Because it works,
Speaker 6: and because by law there's no law requiring them to
Speaker 6: do it. I thought, you know what, there needs to
Speaker 6: be a federal law to have the same bill that
Speaker 6: is sent to insurance companies sent to the patient, just
Speaker 6: so there's no confusion. Right. And my husband's like, oh,
Speaker 6: good luck with everge. You know the political climate. He says,
Speaker 6: you may be able to do it state by state,
Speaker 6: and he says you can start somewhere.
Speaker 3: But I loves you're having for another, go ahead and
Speaker 3: try it years down the road.
Speaker 6: You know, something else to work on in my spare time, right.
Speaker 1: Right, But it is smart to realize these things because
Speaker 1: as consumers we don't know. We don't see a ton
Speaker 1: of bills. Like, if you don't work in the healthcare industry,
Speaker 1: you have no idea you know that what CPT codes are.
Speaker 1: The huge book full of CPT codes, Like, there's so
Speaker 1: many of them.
Speaker 6: There's three specifics exactly, there's more than three hundred thousand
Speaker 6: CPT codes. And you don't have to memory. You don't
Speaker 6: have to know any of them. You just have to
Speaker 6: know where to find it. You know, it's not you
Speaker 6: know how it goes, not what you know, it's you
Speaker 6: know who you know? Right well, you know, doctor Google,
Speaker 6: You'll take up CPT code and you'll google it. You
Speaker 6: don't need to remember, you don't need to memorize any
Speaker 6: of them. So I use the analogy gin of going
Speaker 6: to a car mechanic. Right, So, your car doesn't work,
Speaker 6: it's not doing something it is supposed to do. You
Speaker 6: take it to the mechanic. Well, you don't have to
Speaker 6: know fancy mechanic words and how the car runs. And
Speaker 6: that kind of thing to know, number one, what you're
Speaker 6: able to pay for it. Right, You don't need to
Speaker 6: know fancy medical words and CPT codes. You don't have
Speaker 6: to have them memorized and know what they are to
Speaker 6: be able to understand what fits in your budget when
Speaker 6: you have to pay for your care.
Speaker 1: I know I can go to a car dealership and
Speaker 1: be like, I can't afford a car that's more than
Speaker 1: twenty thousand dollars, and they will do you know, they
Speaker 1: will tell me what I need to compromise on to
Speaker 1: stay in my budget. And it's just not the same
Speaker 1: with healthcare exactly.
Speaker 6: That's you know, Jen, that's the exact that's the exact
Speaker 6: analogy I use. I say, you know what, when you
Speaker 6: go to a car dealership, we know personal financial literacy.
Speaker 6: We know that if you're buying a new car, old car,
Speaker 6: you are expected to negotiate. There's just basic things you're
Speaker 6: supposed to know. And you don't think that well, I
Speaker 6: don't know any thing about how cars work. I don't
Speaker 6: know any fancy car terms, but I know that I
Speaker 6: want like a big car with a big engine, so
Speaker 6: I know I want a V eight. We don't you
Speaker 6: don't have to know how the VA works and all
Speaker 6: the little fancy things connected to it to know how
Speaker 6: much you can afford to pay to stay in your budget,
Speaker 6: to stay in your spending plan for you and your family.
Speaker 3: Some of us just want good cup holders, that's all.
Speaker 3: I'm hey, you know what.
Speaker 6: I didn't want to, but I had to buy a
Speaker 6: new car, my my baby, my favorite Bella. It was
Speaker 6: diagnosed with a terminal disease, so I had to let
Speaker 6: her go. So I had to get a replacement. I
Speaker 6: call her Bella Junior. So when I was checking out
Speaker 6: Bella Junior at the dealership, the guy was like, hey,
Speaker 6: in showing me all the features everything, he says, and
Speaker 6: it has a sunglass holder for your sunglasses. I was like, ah, sold, done.
Speaker 6: I kept playing with.
Speaker 5: Things.
Speaker 6: I'm with you jillion yes.
Speaker 1: So say somebody has a medical debt that's been it's
Speaker 1: been longer than six months, and you know they've already
Speaker 1: sent it off to collections. What is a person's move then?
Speaker 1: Should they you know, it's on their credit report? How
Speaker 1: do they get it off their credit report? How do
Speaker 1: they deal with it? What's the next what's the move there?
Speaker 6: Okay, so this I'm going to talk about the old number.
Speaker 6: So as of July first, as of last week, it's
Speaker 6: less than a week old. The three credit reporting agencies
Speaker 6: have to they have to wipe off, remove and not
Speaker 6: report any medical bill or debt that's been paid off
Speaker 6: that's already in collections, that was in collections. They can't
Speaker 6: report it anymore. Once you pay it off. It doesn't
Speaker 6: stay on for seven years like other consumer debt. It
Speaker 6: gets wiped off as soon as you pay it off.
Speaker 6: The other thing is is that the facilities have to
Speaker 6: wait now twelve months instead of six months before reporting
Speaker 6: it to collections or selling it to collections. So that's
Speaker 6: awesome news. I just wanted to remind us of you know,
Speaker 6: this is something that's new.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I had no idea.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, good stuff. Right. Yeah, So I'm so this
Speaker 6: next thing to answer your question, Jen refers to prior
Speaker 6: to any bills that came up before July one, twenty
Speaker 6: twenty two, before last week. So what you would do
Speaker 6: is you really want to call and make sure that
Speaker 6: you owe that. Let me back up. If they call you,
Speaker 6: when they call, you say hey you owe this, it's
Speaker 6: in collections. You want to make sure you really owe it,
Speaker 6: so they have to prove by law. There's a federal
Speaker 6: law that's been in effect since the late seventies. It's
Speaker 6: called the Fair Debt Practices Fair Debt Collection Practices Act
Speaker 6: that says that if you get called by a debt collector,
Speaker 6: they have to show send you documentation that you signed
Speaker 6: for the service or product. So you're going to have
Speaker 6: to You're going to have to go just og on them,
Speaker 6: just old school and say, hey, look, I don't know
Speaker 6: anything about that. You need to send that to me
Speaker 6: in writing. Show me my signature where I agreed to
Speaker 6: pay for this, that I received the service. Show me that.
Speaker 6: So if they don't show you that, they don't send
Speaker 6: it to you in writing, you don't know it. The
Speaker 6: second thing is okay, so let's say they send it
Speaker 6: to you and you owe it. There are credit repair
Speaker 6: agencies that say, you know what, you're better off just
Speaker 6: working with let me back up their consumer journalists and
Speaker 6: folks that you have experience in doing this work in
Speaker 6: consumer debt, say you know what, instead of paying it
Speaker 6: off with the debt collector, just work with a credit
Speaker 6: repair service business company because your credit has already been
Speaker 6: deemed so they suggest, you know what, maybe you even
Speaker 6: want to pay it off because it's already hit your report,
Speaker 6: your credit report and being your credit number, your fi
Speaker 6: GOO score. So some people suggest doing that. Others say,
Speaker 6: you know what, work out a payment plan, you negotiate
Speaker 6: with them, and you know they bought it for pennies,
Speaker 6: so you know they're going to get a little bit
Speaker 6: of something, and again a little bit of something is
Speaker 6: better than nothing. If you found out you did, you
Speaker 6: went through the steps, you found out you did owe it,
Speaker 6: you really if you can, if you can, this is
Speaker 6: more difficult to do to get the real bill with
Speaker 6: your signature with CPT codes, that that's ideal. But if
Speaker 6: they have a signature from you and it looks like, okay,
Speaker 6: yes this documentation I signed for these medical these care services.
Speaker 6: If you can, I go back to step three applying
Speaker 6: the three steps again. If they can't give you CPT codes,
Speaker 6: then you know with the you know the documentation that
Speaker 6: they have that you think that you really do oh
Speaker 6: you receive those services. Take it down step two. What
Speaker 6: the services you receive? What prices Medicare pays for it,
Speaker 6: or you can go up to two times Medicare rate.
Speaker 6: If you're so inclined to start there with your step
Speaker 6: three negotiation, say okay, I'm able to do this interest
Speaker 6: free because they've already ding my credit interest free payment plan,
Speaker 6: and it doesn't matter how long it takes. You stay
Speaker 6: in your budget. Don't let them wipe out your Frankly,
Speaker 6: you know Americans want to We love our nurses and
Speaker 6: reappreciate our dots. You know, they save they can save
Speaker 6: our lives, and we're grateful. But just because the facility
Speaker 6: and or the providers saved your life doesn't mean that
Speaker 6: you should destroy your financial life and give up your
Speaker 6: life to pay them. Right, So don't give up your
Speaker 6: don't compromise or risk your ability to get to work.
Speaker 6: The roof over your head. So make sure you can
Speaker 6: make your mortgage. You have a budget, your spending plan
Speaker 6: that includes your budget, I mean your mortgage or your rent,
Speaker 6: your car payment, your ability to get back and forth
Speaker 6: to work. Medical bills come last. Frankly, You've got to
Speaker 6: make sure that you stay with your ability to stay healthy.
Speaker 6: And if you're financially stressed, you're going to You're not
Speaker 6: going to stay healthy. So protect your ability to keep
Speaker 6: a roof over your head. Your ability to get to
Speaker 6: and from work. Pay those bills first, and then work
Speaker 6: out something that you can cover those that medical debt
Speaker 6: collections saying that you owe. But some people say, if
Speaker 6: you've already got if it's already gone to collections, it's
Speaker 6: already dinged your credit score. Consider that. I'm not an
Speaker 6: expert in this, and I'm not suggesting one or another,
Speaker 6: but some folks say, once it's gone to debt collectors,
Speaker 6: consider working with a credit repair agency or a business company.
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, if you're going to go that route, make
Speaker 1: sure it's a non not for profit like come.
Speaker 6: Yeah, oh that yeah, big De'll thank you for bringing
Speaker 6: that up. That's that's important.
Speaker 1: So I've heard, and I've I've experienced getting like a
Speaker 1: pay in full discount. Do you recommend the interest free
Speaker 1: payment plan over possibly getting a pay in full discount
Speaker 1: for either a bill or a debt.
Speaker 6: It's up to you once only only only only after
Speaker 6: you've gone through the three steps. If you've done the
Speaker 6: first two steps, sure you know whatever works for you.
Speaker 6: So yeah, okay, I've done the three steps. First step,
Speaker 6: I got the CPT codes described in the services that
Speaker 6: I received. Number two, I took those codes and found
Speaker 6: out what Medicare pays for those services, and so this
Speaker 6: is a fair price. So you go to three. Okay,
Speaker 6: this is why I'm willing to pay. So let's say
Speaker 6: that I guess sent a bill and this is not unusual.
Speaker 6: You've got sent a bill for ten thousand dollars, and
Speaker 6: you worked out the numbers, you know, did the three steps,
Speaker 6: the first two steps, and you googled up actually Medicare pays,
Speaker 6: you know, three thousand dollars for these services. Well, you
Speaker 6: call them back and you say, you know what, if
Speaker 6: I pay you in full three thousand, will you take it?
Speaker 6: This is what Medicare pays. Will you take it? If
Speaker 6: you don't ask, you don't get. And then if you
Speaker 6: believe that that's what you've done the research, meaning you
Speaker 6: googled the CPT codes and what Medicare pays for them,
Speaker 6: then and you believe that the actual fair number is
Speaker 6: three thousand dollars, say look, this is all I'm willing
Speaker 6: to pay. Take it or leave it, and you know
Speaker 6: you'll give me a seventy percent discount if I pay
Speaker 6: you in full?
Speaker 3: Now, yeah, for someone at that step two of comparing
Speaker 3: to Medicare prices where can they go to find that information?
Speaker 3: To go back to the car illustration? Is there like
Speaker 3: a how is their blue book?
Speaker 6: Actually there is a healthcare blue book. You can start there,
Speaker 6: but that the healthcare blue book looks at the prices
Speaker 6: that are paid are charged and paid in that particular
Speaker 6: region where you live. Medicare does a little bit of
Speaker 6: tweaking based on regions, but not a whole lot. So
Speaker 6: I usually tell people to go to healthcare dot Gov
Speaker 6: is the big one where I tell people they can
Speaker 6: start their search for the actual prices that Medicare pays
Speaker 6: for certain services CPT codes services.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so that's where having that code comes in hand.
Speaker 3: Toy that.
Speaker 6: So that's why step one call them.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 6: The first step is easy, just a phone call. Yeah,
Speaker 6: you know you're going to be on hold. You know, well,
Speaker 6: you're in front of the TV. Just put the TV
Speaker 6: on mute and a commercial and call, you know, just
Speaker 6: and then watch and then when they come and they
Speaker 6: pick up, you know, ten minutes later, fifteen twenty minutes later,
Speaker 6: however it is, you can put your TV on you
Speaker 6: and talk to them and say, I need a real
Speaker 6: bill of CPT codes.
Speaker 3: Mm hmmmm, nice.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know what else I need. Every week, it's
Speaker 1: it's on the same level as this conversation.
Speaker 3: The bill of the week.
Speaker 2: That's right, it's time for the best minute of your
Speaker 2: entire week. Maybe a baby was born and his name
Speaker 2: is Williams.
Speaker 3: Maybe you've paid off.
Speaker 2: Your mortgage, maybe your car died, and you're happy to
Speaker 2: not have to pay that bill anymore. Stuff bills, Buffalo bills,
Speaker 2: Bill Clinton, this is the bill of the week.
Speaker 1: Doctor Virgie. Every week we invite our listeners and our
Speaker 1: guests to share with us their bill of the week,
Speaker 1: and we, as a billing expert, we are very excited
Speaker 1: to hear what your bill is for the week.
Speaker 6: So my bill, actually I talk about it in my
Speaker 6: book How to Crush Medical Debt, or I call it
Speaker 6: just Crush Medical Debt. What your doctor wants you know,
Speaker 6: how to crush medical debt, And I talk about it
Speaker 6: because it is a subset a great example of what
Speaker 6: we talked about at the beginning of our conversation, which
Speaker 6: is surprise bills. So surprise bills, as I said, is
Speaker 6: when you go to an in network provider and a
Speaker 6: hospital facility, but they have out of network dots taking
Speaker 6: care of you. Providing the service. Okay, so that's a
Speaker 6: subset of balance billing. Balance billing is when you go
Speaker 6: to an in network provider, meaning they accept your insurance,
Speaker 6: and they send you a bill for the real I
Speaker 6: call mrsp right, as we were talking about cars full
Speaker 6: manufacture retail sticker price. They send you a bill for
Speaker 6: the balance between what their retail their full price. I laugh,
Speaker 6: so I don't cry, really, and they send you a
Speaker 6: bill for the provider send you a bill for their
Speaker 6: full price, even though they're a network of their provider.
Speaker 6: So let's say that, just to keep the math simple,
Speaker 6: say that I go get Care and the insurance pays
Speaker 6: ten dollars for this particular CPT code, right, this particular service,
Speaker 6: but the provider's full price is one hundred dollars. So
Speaker 6: instead of saying, oh, we're a network, we've agreed to
Speaker 6: accept whatever they pay for their members as payment in full,
Speaker 6: we accept that ten dollars and it is what it is. Right,
Speaker 6: they send you a bill for the balance, which is
Speaker 6: ninety dollars.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 6: That is balance billing. So the reason why that's important,
Speaker 6: and we talked about the surprise billing is a is
Speaker 6: a type of balance billing. The reason why that's important
Speaker 6: is because if you can imagine, it's if it's just
Speaker 6: you know, one hundred dollars or two hundred, and never
Speaker 6: say never put just in front of the money. Right.
Speaker 6: If it's just you know, one hundred, two hundred dollars, okay,
Speaker 6: you know it's gonna you're not gonna be happy about it.
Speaker 6: But if it's thousands of dollars for the services, that's
Speaker 6: that'll put you in bankruptcy land debt land really quick. Right.
Speaker 6: So anyway, so my medical bill mistake of the week
Speaker 6: is I went to a hospital for emergency surgery and
Speaker 6: I got a balance bill. They tried to balance bill me. Uh,
Speaker 6: they said, my I always laugh. I really I laugh,
Speaker 6: I don't cry. They sent me a bill six months
Speaker 6: later that had one CPT code and the rest was
Speaker 6: like general you know, so it wasn't a real bill
Speaker 6: because it only had like one CPT code describing you know,
Speaker 6: in patience, day, surgery, all this stuff. Right, So it's like, okay,
Speaker 6: this is this is interesting, this is going to be
Speaker 6: entertaining for me, So please send me a bill for
Speaker 6: three hundred that said, well, our charge is for your
Speaker 6: surgery and all this and the inpatience day is three
Speaker 6: hundred and fifty one thousand dollars. But then you put
Speaker 6: a second line in that said, this is quote unquote
Speaker 6: insurance adjustments slash payments of like two hundred and sixty
Speaker 6: thousand dollars or something, and then it says patient third line,
Speaker 6: patient responsibility and up at the top, same number, patient
Speaker 6: due you know, within like thirty days or something, you know,
Speaker 6: lolo price of like almost ninety thousand dollars. Right, Oh
Speaker 6: my gosh.
Speaker 1: So manageable, right, we just help you out.
Speaker 6: Yeah, exactly right. So I have to say, you know,
Speaker 6: I was I was laughing because they didn't realize, you know,
Speaker 6: they're putting one over on the author of what your
Speaker 6: doctor wants you to know at a crush medical debt, right,
Speaker 6: not for crush medal debt. And I was cracking up,
Speaker 6: and I had to I was. I was working from
Speaker 6: home that day, and I had to just let it.
Speaker 6: I had to talk to someone. So I call my
Speaker 6: best friend and I tell other story. I said, I
Speaker 6: just got a balance bill for ninety thousand dollars from
Speaker 6: this facility that was in network, that is in network
Speaker 6: with my insurance, and I'm telling other story and just
Speaker 6: cracking up laughing, and she finally says, you know, Virgie,
Speaker 6: you're the only person I know who laughs when everybody
Speaker 6: else would be curled up in the fetal position in
Speaker 6: the corner crying. And you know, I tell this story
Speaker 6: because it is a perfect example of why we have
Speaker 6: to educate ourselves. We have to have medical financial literacy,
Speaker 6: just basic three steps and it'll save you literally sometimes
Speaker 6: one hundreds of thousands of dollars. If I'd gone back
Speaker 6: and applied the three steps, I would have called the provider,
Speaker 6: asked for cp real bill with CPT codes for everything,
Speaker 6: and not just like I think they gave me a
Speaker 6: CPT code for like the tissue they took during my
Speaker 6: surgery and sent it to the lab. They sent me
Speaker 6: a CPT code they broke it out with our services
Speaker 6: and stay three hundred and fifty one, three hundred and
Speaker 6: fifty thousand and nine hundred ALLA, and then CPT code
Speaker 6: for lab service Pathology service forty four dollars. It was
Speaker 6: just like that is rich?
Speaker 3: Is so?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 6: If I'd applied all three steps to that, I would
Speaker 6: have gotten a real bill, and then I would have
Speaker 6: figured out that hey, when I've gotten the EOB for
Speaker 6: my insurance that the number they were actually charging me,
Speaker 6: that ninety thousand dollars was the same number that they
Speaker 6: sent the insurance company to pay. The insurance companily paid
Speaker 6: ninety thousand dollars, probably less, but you know, they figured
Speaker 6: like nine times out of ten, it works. Wow, And
Speaker 6: they were going to I was sent a bill for
Speaker 6: ninety thousand dollars that I didn't owe, and they sent
Speaker 6: the same claim, the same bill to my insurance company.
Speaker 3: So you didn't actually owe any of that.
Speaker 6: No, I owed nothing. So yeah, that's a great question.
Speaker 6: So a year later, I was talking to my best
Speaker 6: friend again about something and I said, you know, well, yeah,
Speaker 6: that's why you know. I You know, I call myself
Speaker 6: the lady that got out of paying the ninety thousand
Speaker 6: dollars medical bill. And you can too. Let me show
Speaker 6: you how. And she says, well, Virgie, by the way,
Speaker 6: she says, you didn't pay that, right. I was like,
Speaker 6: of course not. I told her I wasn't going to
Speaker 6: pay that. And she says, well, are you sure like
Speaker 6: it didn't get sent to collections? Maybe check your credit report,
Speaker 6: your credit number, your five call score. I'm like, who
Speaker 6: are you talking to Like what I was like, you're
Speaker 6: you know, you're talking to the author of Crush Medical Debt, right,
Speaker 6: I said, you know, dude, I just refine. Asked my
Speaker 6: mortgage last month, my credit score, my fi Pal score
Speaker 6: was They said it went down from the month prior.
Speaker 6: It was now eight forty one. And I was like,
Speaker 6: what I mean, I missed the snapshot. I got a
Speaker 6: screenshot and sent it to her. But apparently the month
Speaker 6: prior it was eight fifty. So I said, there's no
Speaker 6: They didn't say, it's about that's what balance billing is.
Speaker 6: It is. It's she's a lawyer. She won't let me
Speaker 6: use the word contract fraud, but let's say it is.
Speaker 6: It is not. It is not in contract. You're if
Speaker 6: they when they send you a balanced bill. When they
Speaker 6: send a balance bill, they the provider sent a balance
Speaker 6: bill to members of insurance companies who they contracted with
Speaker 6: to accept their insurance. Sending a balance bill is breach
Speaker 6: of contract.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean recognizing that what is happening here with
Speaker 3: medical billing is not always ethical, and sometimes we think
Speaker 3: what's illegal is the same thing as unethical, and it's
Speaker 3: not the same thing.
Speaker 6: You so much for saying that I tell folks this
Speaker 6: all the time. Jillian. It's like, you know what, these
Speaker 6: insurance companies and the providers know it's immoral and unethical,
Speaker 6: but they also know it's not illegal.
Speaker 1: And they spend a lot of money every year making
Speaker 1: sure it never becomes illegal. And it's your money they're spending.
Speaker 6: Exactly, lobbyist, you know, hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars. Yes, ma'am,
Speaker 6: January hit it right.
Speaker 3: Thanks to doctor Vergie, we are one step closer to
Speaker 3: being educated and armed with knowledge and we don't have
Speaker 3: to pay that ninety thousand dollars medical bill. If you
Speaker 3: all listening have a similar story to getting out of
Speaker 3: a ninety thousand dollars bill, I mean, definitely call us
Speaker 3: Frugal friendspodcast dot com slash bill. But if it's anything,
Speaker 3: if it's a wrong bill, if it's a double bill,
Speaker 3: it's a double bill that you like. Whatever it is,
Speaker 3: the right bill, leave us your bill Forrugal friendspodcast dot
Speaker 3: com slash bill. Now it's time for the lightning round.
Speaker 1: The lightning round, so we are playing this is a
Speaker 1: little bit of wait, wait, don't tell me style. We're
Speaker 1: talking about negotiating medical bills and debt. For the Lightning Round,
Speaker 1: we want to know what's your best negotiation experience in general.
Speaker 1: It can be medically related, but it doesn't have to
Speaker 1: be so doctor Virgie, we will let you go first.
Speaker 1: What was your best new negotiation?
Speaker 6: My best negotiation is probably then this. This has so
Speaker 6: nothing to do with medical bills because I just described
Speaker 6: My best negotiation is saying, no, I'm not paying any
Speaker 6: of it. Yeah, this is very funny, this will this, Oh,
Speaker 6: this will be a great story for my book. But no,
Speaker 6: you're not getting a dime because you don't owe it.
Speaker 6: Nice try, but no cigars. My brother used to say,
Speaker 6: probably my best negotiation is being at a tax sale
Speaker 6: a yard sale and getting they were giving away or
Speaker 6: you know, selling a plant or something, and I was
Speaker 6: just talking with them and gave them, you know, a
Speaker 6: beautiful smile, and they just said, hey, just take it.
Speaker 6: I was willing to pay twenty fifth. I would have
Speaker 6: paid whatever. It was a gorgeous little plant kind of
Speaker 6: you know, like a small tree kind of thing. And
Speaker 6: they're like, oh, you know what, you've been here before.
Speaker 6: They had a sale prior, a couple months prior, and
Speaker 6: I bought something. They were like, you know what, just
Speaker 6: take it doctor.
Speaker 3: I don't know that's negotiating. I think that just might
Speaker 3: be the beautiful, the being beautiful discount that you got.
Speaker 3: I don't know you.
Speaker 1: I would if I could smiling a discount, that would
Speaker 1: be my favorite.
Speaker 6: I would my old mile you know, the twelve year
Speaker 6: old virgie smile that wasn't so beautiful. Then yeah, I'd
Speaker 6: have to come up with another negotiation. I think just
Speaker 6: being kind so you.
Speaker 3: Can just negotiation necessary.
Speaker 6: Mind and with them and you know, creating relationships.
Speaker 1: So that is a pastic negotiation tip is be kind
Speaker 1: and fred like befriend Sometimes.
Speaker 3: It doesn't even need to get to the combative stage.
Speaker 3: You just flash a smile and walk home with a freaquent.
Speaker 6: So my my husband says that, He says, you know,
Speaker 6: when you you're at tag sales and yard sales and
Speaker 6: that kind of thing, you'll bundle it. You know, well,
Speaker 6: I bought something already, can you throw in this? Or okay,
Speaker 6: well how much is this? You already have a couple
Speaker 6: of things in your hand, and we just did this
Speaker 6: this past weekend, and he says, well will you do
Speaker 6: I think it was like she wanted three dollars or
Speaker 6: five dollars then something the third item, and he already
Speaker 6: had two items in his hand that he didn't hadn't
Speaker 6: asked her about the prices for, and he says, well,
Speaker 6: will you take ten dollars for all three? Just like yeah,
Speaker 6: So that's my negotiation tip. Be kind relationships and yeah bundle.
Speaker 3: What about for you, Jim, you love negotiating.
Speaker 1: Yes, I will say My biggest one has a little
Speaker 1: bit to do with relationships. Also slightly stalking. Oh, you
Speaker 1: be the judge. It was our first house and I
Speaker 1: wanted that thing so bad, and our realtor at the
Speaker 1: time very much helped us negoti But when we got
Speaker 1: under contract, they still had an open house, and I
Speaker 1: went to the open house and I like stocked it
Speaker 1: and just made sure that nobody else wanted it. And
Speaker 1: I talked with the flippers who were also the sellers,
Speaker 1: and just found things we had in common. One of
Speaker 1: them had went to school with my old boss, good
Speaker 1: old Greg, and they and so I just made sure
Speaker 1: that once the negotiation was like done, that I really
Speaker 1: had it on lock. That was That was my favorite
Speaker 1: negotiation experience, and it ended up being well, we had
Speaker 1: no money. At the time, we were being kind of
Speaker 1: forced out of our rental, so we had saved nothing,
Speaker 1: so we had to figure out how to get the
Speaker 1: house with little to no money.
Speaker 3: I mean, that's great when your best negotiation is on
Speaker 3: your biggest asset, your biggest expense.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, and we thought we paid more, but we
Speaker 1: actually made out really good being like two kids in
Speaker 1: their twenties getting this like fully flipped house. So that
Speaker 1: was that was my favorite, My favorite negotiation experience of Travis's.
Speaker 1: And this is really the best story is that Travis
Speaker 1: sat on the phone with Sprint for six hours one
Speaker 1: time to end up with two free iPhones.
Speaker 3: Mm hmm, that's amazing.
Speaker 1: That was money. I was time well spent for the
Speaker 1: money that was saved.
Speaker 3: Right, But who wants to sit on a phone for
Speaker 3: six hours?
Speaker 6: Yeah? Yeah, hourly rate? How much are those two phones worth?
Speaker 6: And divide sick into what is he so think about
Speaker 6: his job when he gets paid, you know, break it down,
Speaker 6: divide it up his annual salary, divide it monthly. Then
Speaker 6: you can divide it into his HOURI rate, right, and
Speaker 6: then you know, take that number, compare it to what
Speaker 6: two iPhones together at least seven hundred dollars to make
Speaker 6: the math easy, six hundred dollars, So six hundred dollars
Speaker 6: he saved right or got product services were six hundred
Speaker 6: dollars over six hours. That was one hundred dollars. He
Speaker 6: made one hundred dollars an hour.
Speaker 3: Yep, yep.
Speaker 1: So it's crazy and he wouldn't want to do it again,
Speaker 1: but it's it's a story. Probably I tell the most
Speaker 1: about negotiating bills and stuff because he just I got home,
Speaker 1: he was on the phone. I left for a girl's
Speaker 1: night and came back. He was still on the phone.
Speaker 1: It was an early girls night, Yeah it was.
Speaker 3: It was mom, I wasn't with you on that girl's night. No, no,
Speaker 3: so yeah it was.
Speaker 1: Uh that was That's the best negotiation experience. It just
Speaker 1: wasn't my experience.
Speaker 6: Wow, he learned from it, Jill. You learn at the
Speaker 6: knee of the master. That's awesome.
Speaker 1: I do learn from the master.
Speaker 3: This was something for both Eric and I were living
Speaker 3: in one hundred and seventy square feet a tiny little
Speaker 3: trailer camper and working from home, like working remotely, So
Speaker 3: you can imagine what that looked like for both of
Speaker 3: us to be working in one hundred seventy square feet,
Speaker 3: so we needed an office space, so we were looking
Speaker 3: at rentals and ended up finding this amazing renovated barn
Speaker 3: at a very reasonable rate for us to be able
Speaker 3: to work there. Well. It was also on lots of
Speaker 3: acreage and it looked like a perfect place to also
Speaker 3: park our RV, so we negotiated for them to allow
Speaker 3: us to park our RV on the property use the
Speaker 3: barn the renovated barn for our co working space for
Speaker 3: the same price that they were hoping to get out
Speaker 3: of renting out the space, just like, well, you let
Speaker 3: us also live there at no cost, and they did.
Speaker 3: And you know what, doctor Virgie, it might have been
Speaker 3: some extra smiles that got us that much, because.
Speaker 6: Really, your office space, so you throw it a place
Speaker 6: for us to live too. There you go buy.
Speaker 3: It was bundling, and really they needed someone really specific
Speaker 3: to be able to rent because they had young kids
Speaker 3: who were playing in the driveway, so they didn't want
Speaker 3: a company renting who was in and out of the
Speaker 3: driveway a lot. We were really quiet, We kept to ourselves.
Speaker 3: It's what allowed us to be able to afford the
Speaker 3: office space and still live in the trailer, so that
Speaker 3: was probably our best negotiation. Yeah, we'll rent this space
Speaker 3: from you can We also live here in our RV
Speaker 3: right next door. They were awesome, became friends, which was great.
Speaker 1: So oh I love it. I love these stories, Doctor Vigie,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us. Where can people
Speaker 1: get more from you and get your fantastic book.
Speaker 6: I can go to Crush Medical Debt dot com and
Speaker 6: on Thursdays on Voice America dot com at five pm
Speaker 6: Eastern two pm Pacific, you can find me at the
Speaker 6: Aska Doctor What your doctor wants you to know with
Speaker 6: doctor Virgie show awesome.
Speaker 1: Yes, and definitely check out your book, Crush Medical Debt.
Speaker 1: It's available Amazon and it's gonna help so many people
Speaker 1: really escape this h this crushing medical debt. So thank
Speaker 1: you again, doctor Virgie.
Speaker 6: Now, thank you so much for having me. It's been
Speaker 6: so much fun talking with the ladies. I really appreciate
Speaker 6: all you guys do.
Speaker 3: Bi gwise, Doctor Virgie, thanks for being here.
Speaker 1: I'm so glad that you got to hear that one
Speaker 1: and again you you can get more from doctor Ellington's website,
Speaker 1: Crush Medical Debt dot com. She has We've referred several
Speaker 1: of our listeners to her that have had specific questions
Speaker 1: in the past, and she's been so generous in answering those.
Speaker 1: So crush medical debt dot com And yeah, I hope
Speaker 1: it is definitely rough. I've recently been and we've both
Speaker 1: this year been inundated with some medical bills that we
Speaker 1: have had to navigate, and it is crushing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, But having had recorded this interview, I was much
Speaker 3: more equipped to face some of those things. I think
Speaker 3: we are better off if the medical things can be
Speaker 3: scheduled like that was my circumstance. I had a surgery
Speaker 3: this past year that I was able to see coming
Speaker 3: and schedule and ask the questions ahead of time. You
Speaker 3: face some things that were just emergency situations and now
Speaker 3: you're receiving the bills afterwards. But in both scenarios, knowing
Speaker 3: about asking for CPT codes and breaking down the costs
Speaker 3: and comparing it to you know what those things are
Speaker 3: supposed to cost.
Speaker 1: Being as annoying as possible has been my honest My
Speaker 1: real takeaway is if you are not annoying, you don't
Speaker 1: get hurt. And I don't. Yeah, I don't want to
Speaker 1: be annoying. I want to assume that people are doing
Speaker 1: the most for me, and they just can't. They don't
Speaker 1: have the capacity to so to be as annoying as possible,
Speaker 1: but with kind, not to make somebody intentionally not want
Speaker 1: to help you.
Speaker 3: Out, and my strengths based perspective on that is just
Speaker 3: being persistent.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, we have different words for this to say thing.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening. We love, love, love
Speaker 1: reading your kind reviews kind of like this one from
Speaker 1: Lori T ten. It's titled Millennial and teacher Friendly happens
Speaker 1: to be five stars. It says Jen and Jill have
Speaker 1: done an incredible job of taking money topics and making
Speaker 1: them understandable and applicable for any person of any income.
Speaker 1: I am a teacher who has been struggling with payoff
Speaker 1: and saving, and these girls take away the shame of
Speaker 1: not being financially savvy and truly feel like I'm just
Speaker 1: chatting with most non judgmental friends.
Speaker 3: I love that that's coming across. We're not out here
Speaker 3: judging or telling you exactly how to do it, but
Speaker 3: hopefully giving you the tools and resources to be able
Speaker 3: to implement beneficial money decisions that make sense for you.
Speaker 3: So thank you so much, lot, Lori t ten for
Speaker 3: those words. If you all are listening and you've not
Speaker 3: left words for us in the form of a rating
Speaker 3: and review wherever you're listening, that'd be so so helpful.
Speaker 3: Not only does it provide us more content for every
Speaker 3: episode that we record because we read them during our episodes,
Speaker 3: but it also helps other people find this podcast know
Speaker 3: whether or not it's right for them. So thanks for
Speaker 3: doing that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we will see you next time and next year,
Speaker 1: let me see. We'll see you before, but we will
Speaker 1: not see you before the holiday. So I hope you
Speaker 1: have a fantastic holiday tomorrow. And if you've already had it,
Speaker 1: I hope it was really.
Speaker 3: Special and you can make it even more special by
Speaker 3: whatulovebook dot com.
Speaker 1: Google Friends is produced by Eric Sirianni.
Speaker 3: Okay, Jen, I had a medical event this week where,
Speaker 3: first of all, I woke up at four fifty am.
Speaker 1: Oh gosh, yeah okay. I was like, oh, this is
Speaker 1: worries someth.
Speaker 3: I went to exercise publicly, which you know me, this
Speaker 3: is again Jill speaking. I don't do that. I exercise
Speaker 3: in the privacy of my own home. I was really shocked.
Speaker 1: I was really shocked by this.
Speaker 3: Everyone's surprised surprise that I went and worked out. So
Speaker 3: a friend invited me. It was a free class because
Speaker 3: it was the first time that I was visiting and
Speaker 3: she goes regularly. She's like, hey, you want to join me,
Speaker 3: And for whatever reason, it was just like, yeah, you
Speaker 3: know what, I want to try something new, different, I
Speaker 3: want to do something that scares me. I did ask
Speaker 3: her like is it going to be scary because it
Speaker 3: is one of those kind of CrossFit adjacent type of gyms.
Speaker 3: But I did it. I did something that scared me.
Speaker 3: It worked out. No one was paying attention to me,
Speaker 3: which is great, except for the trainer. A couple of
Speaker 3: times she came out and she's like you good, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: I'm good. I'm good. I'm just out of breath. And
Speaker 3: so anyways, what I'm about to say really has nothing
Speaker 3: to do with that. Well, but I will tell it
Speaker 3: in So I get home. I get home at like
Speaker 3: seven fifteen, it's still so the sun has just now
Speaker 3: come up, and I'm like, awesome, so much more time
Speaker 3: in the day for activities. I'm going to put the
Speaker 3: dishes away. Well, a few days before I had made
Speaker 3: sour dough bread and I do have a razor scorer,
Speaker 3: a thing to score my sour dough bread with that's
Speaker 3: very very sharp. And I was pulling out one utensil
Speaker 3: and that one fell and sliced my fingy, my middle finger,
Speaker 3: the one that I realized I used the most for
Speaker 3: all sorts of stuff. That middle finger is putting in
Speaker 3: some overtime. Sliced it real good, like it is a
Speaker 3: it's a sharp razor, and I think it like went
Speaker 3: to the bone thankfully, just like kind of on a
Speaker 3: knuckle and not go to the bone on a knuckle.
Speaker 3: I think it's bruised. It like was at the bone. Anyways,
Speaker 3: Eric heard me. He came out and it was it
Speaker 3: was a lot of gushing that was happening. But tried
Speaker 3: to dry it up as quick as possible while it's
Speaker 3: still actively bleeding. Super glued it together, because that's what
Speaker 3: we do in the Syriani household. We have super glue
Speaker 3: in our first aid kit. First slice ourselves. We slice
Speaker 3: ourselves real good, and we're not trying to get ourselves
Speaker 3: into a situation where we have to spend persistent time
Speaker 3: negotiating medical bill is.
Speaker 1: Did you put super glue in your first aid kit?
Speaker 1: Because of the dishwashing incident when you were renovating that house.
Speaker 2: Mm hmm.
Speaker 3: Eric had used super glue before too, so this was
Speaker 3: just like this your fingers, Yeah, it's on that same hand.
Speaker 3: Can you see the.
Speaker 1: Scars, h your poor fingers.
Speaker 3: My thangees. Yeah, they're gonna look a little gnarly because
Speaker 3: we just do our own stitching with with glue.
Speaker 1: They're great though, but they're fantastic.
Speaker 3: I so my takeaway, here's how I'm tying it in.
Speaker 3: I shouldn't have been up so.
Speaker 1: Early, well, agreed. I did a six am class once
Speaker 1: and I did crossbit and I was doing a push press.
Speaker 1: I had a barbell over my head and I brought
Speaker 1: it back down and no, no, no, it was when
Speaker 1: I was lifting it up. Oh, I totally like caught
Speaker 1: my chin and I started bleeding, like I bled.
Speaker 3: Bleeding from your chin from the bottom. Could you also
Speaker 3: like bite a lip or a tongue?
Speaker 5: One?
Speaker 1: No, not that, but I and I also brought it
Speaker 1: down on my head with the same motion. I don't remember,
Speaker 1: but I just remember after I brought it down on
Speaker 1: my head, I was like, never again. And I have
Speaker 1: never worked out at six am.
Speaker 3: Okay, see I didn't do barbells, and my friend who
Speaker 3: goes there, she was even like CrossFit traumatized me on
Speaker 3: the barbell I'm only doing dumb bells. And I was
Speaker 3: just following suit. I'm like, if the barbell's not for you,
Speaker 3: it's not for me.
Speaker 1: I will use barbells like I still use barbells. I
Speaker 1: love barbells. That's fine. I just don't use them before
Speaker 1: the sun comes up. That's a rule now that I have.
Speaker 1: The only time I will be working out before the
Speaker 1: sun comes up is if I'm doing a Disney race.
Speaker 1: That's it. Like even when I ask you to run,
Speaker 1: it's free and it's in six at six thirty in
Speaker 1: the evening. I just invited you to one that have
Speaker 1: free cookies.
Speaker 3: Are you going to that? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Probably?
Speaker 3: When is it again?
Speaker 1: I don't remember, but fourteen there are cookies and you
Speaker 1: still always say no.
Speaker 3: I might do a mile. I might take you up
Speaker 3: on the invitation. I could do a mile.
Speaker 1: You could even do You could even push the stroller
Speaker 1: if you don't want to run.
Speaker 3: Who's in the stroller at listen?
Speaker 1: Kai?
Speaker 3: Oh? They would be like there, yeah, okay, where are.
Speaker 1: We going to take them?
Speaker 3: I don't know I'm not thinking through the logistics of
Speaker 3: how you're going to join a cookie run.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 3: Do you normally like push your kids on like five
Speaker 3: k's and marathons and stuff.
Speaker 1: Well, not marathons, but like a cookie run at the
Speaker 1: running company.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we did it.
Speaker 1: We took him to the Turkey Trot on Thanksgiving.
Speaker 3: Do you think Travis is going to do the run
Speaker 3: with you?
Speaker 1: I don't know. He's having a thing with his ear.
Speaker 1: This is a little too much.
Speaker 3: Information for the podcast. We are talking medical stuff. Chens.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know. He's got like a clicking in
Speaker 1: his ear, so he's been walking, but I don't know.
Speaker 1: He would love to not push a stroller. We would
Speaker 1: love I mean, you were talking about your friend Adam
Speaker 1: and I don't even know him, and we were talking
Speaker 1: about giving our kids to him.
Speaker 3: It sounds like it'd be more work to run a
Speaker 3: mile while pushing a stroller. Is that not true? Ye
Speaker 3: find out. It's your responsibility to find out.