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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind production of My

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Weird House Cinema. This

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Speaker 1: is Rob Lamb and this is Joe McCormick. And this

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Speaker 1: week we've got a fun family picture for everybody. It

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Speaker 1: is an OZ film, but you don't have to endure

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Speaker 1: any songs. Uh. It's also that special variety of nine

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Speaker 1: eighties big budget fantasy film that leans more than a

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Speaker 1: little into what some of you might describe as dark fantasy.

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Speaker 1: We are going to be talking about Return to Oz.

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Speaker 1: People have been telling me for years that I needed

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Speaker 1: to watch this movie. Yeah, they'd figure out what like

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Speaker 1: my weird taste was, and they were like, have you

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Speaker 1: ever seen Return to Oz? That movie messed me up

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Speaker 1: when I was a kid. You should watch it. And

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Speaker 1: I never did until last night, and I am absolutely

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Speaker 1: blown away. I am I in fact, I'm a little

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Speaker 1: bit sad, truly, and like not just joking around. I

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Speaker 1: am a little bit sad that I did not actually

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Speaker 1: see this as a child, because I know this is

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Speaker 1: this is precisely the kind of movie that if I'd

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Speaker 1: seen it when I was seven or whatever, I would

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Speaker 1: have been thinking about it for months like it has

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Speaker 1: just the right mix of of uh, you know, bizarre

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Speaker 1: original imagery and character types that are not just like

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Speaker 1: you know, the characters you'd find in any other fantasy

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Speaker 1: thing is you know, it's truly original, but strange combinations

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Speaker 1: of ideas that still nevertheless tap into something very deep

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Speaker 1: and archetypal. I think this is a wonderful, scary children's movie.

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Speaker 1: I think it's great. I never watched it growing up either,

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Speaker 1: and I think part of it was just because the

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Speaker 1: nineteen thirty nine adaptation of the Wizard of Oz is

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Speaker 1: just such a monolith, and it's such an you know,

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Speaker 1: such an influential film, but also one that so many

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Speaker 1: people held close to their hearts that when this film

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Speaker 1: came out, there were plenty of people are like, oh,

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Speaker 1: we don't we don't want that new ODZ. We've we've

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Speaker 1: got that old ODZ. It comes on television all the time,

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Speaker 1: and or we have it on VHS. Why do we

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Speaker 1: need to dip into this thing that that that that

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Speaker 1: some are even saying is is a little frightening. But

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Speaker 1: but here's the thing. Yes, we've been hearing from people say,

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Speaker 1: oh this is you know, this is a weird film.

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Speaker 1: You need to watch this is this is a scary one,

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Speaker 1: or this messed me up as a child. I really

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Speaker 1: don't think this one is any darker or scarier than

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Speaker 1: than any of the other big eighties fantasy films like

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Speaker 1: Labyrinth or the never ending story stuff of that caliber.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I agree. In fact, I don't think it's

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Speaker 1: actually even scarier than the thirty nine Wizard of Oz, which,

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Speaker 1: if you go back and watch the original Wizard of Oz,

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Speaker 1: this movie gave me a new appreciation for how weird

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Speaker 1: and how scary the original is. I'm serious, Like, if you, uh,

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Speaker 1: you kind of accept it because it's part of the

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Speaker 1: air were the Wizard of Oz is. You know, you

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Speaker 1: grow up with that. It's just part of American culture,

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Speaker 1: so it doesn't seem that strange. But yeah, it also

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Speaker 1: has very unusual characters and imagery and uh and there

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Speaker 1: is real tense, frightening, magical peril in it. Do you

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Speaker 1: remember how heart stopping that scene is when you're a

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Speaker 1: kid in the witch turns the hourglass over and says

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Speaker 1: Dorothy's gonna die, and the uh and the you know,

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Speaker 1: the monkey soldiers are everywhere, and the tin Man's with

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Speaker 1: the axe trying to chop down the door like it

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Speaker 1: the original one is scary. Yeah, I always thought that

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Speaker 1: the forest was pretty terrifying. So there's plenty of plenty

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Speaker 1: of weird and scary stuff, and that that thirty nine

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Speaker 1: adaptation as well. And it's funny. We we were conversing

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Speaker 1: before we went in here. You you've noted that I

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Speaker 1: had a couple of sort of jabs at the thirty

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Speaker 1: nine Wizard of Oz. And so you asked me if

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Speaker 1: I if I hated the the original Wizard of Oz film,

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Speaker 1: and uh, and I said no, no, And and truly

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Speaker 1: I think it's it's kind of impossible to hate the

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Speaker 1: thirty nine film. I mean, it's such, like I said,

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Speaker 1: it's a sin matic monolith. It's it's so influential, Like

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Speaker 1: even if you're not crazy about it, it probably influenced

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Speaker 1: some creators or some works that that that came in

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Speaker 1: its wake, you know, like and more directly, if you

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Speaker 1: didn't have the Wizard of Oz from you wouldn't have

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Speaker 1: The Whiz, and of course you wouldn't have this film either.

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Speaker 1: But it's it's it's tentacles run far and long through

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Speaker 1: through fiction and dream weaving that it came to follow

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Speaker 1: but more to your point about h I guess how

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Speaker 1: you might have heard about this movie when you were

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Speaker 1: a kid. If people are saying, oh, you know, it

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Speaker 1: does it doesn't live up to the original, it's not

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Speaker 1: worth seeing or something. I mean, in a way, I

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Speaker 1: think it's kind of silly to try to compare them,

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Speaker 1: because it's I think it's called an unofficial sequel. It

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Speaker 1: is clearly a sequel to The Wizard of Oz, like

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Speaker 1: the events followed directly from the first one, but it's

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Speaker 1: also not not like an official, sanctioned one. And it

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Speaker 1: came decades later. The original was what thirty nine and

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Speaker 1: this is eight five, so what like forty six years

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Speaker 1: in between. It was a long time. And and that

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Speaker 1: makes a big difference in terms of tone and uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, the textures that are expected in a movie

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Speaker 1: like this, Like the the original one has a kind

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Speaker 1: of a kind of gilded grandeur of of old Hollywood

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Speaker 1: about it, whereas this one feels much more. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it feels like an eighties movie, but a lovely, scrappy,

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Speaker 1: imaginative one. Yeah. Yeah, And it's a it is it

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Speaker 1: is a world in which the Emerald City is literally

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Speaker 1: in ruins, so there's probably a lot to say. They're about,

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Speaker 1: like the state of of of of the the eighties

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Speaker 1: mindset compared to the late thirties mindset. I don't know,

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Speaker 1: at least in terms of like cinematic portrayals, but um yeah.

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Speaker 1: It is impossible though, to go into this and not

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Speaker 1: think of the thirty nine film sometimes unfairly. So's why

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Speaker 1: I actually watched this with my my whole family. We

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Speaker 1: sat down and watched it, and my son he really

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Speaker 1: enjoyed this one. He he enjoyed the old one, but

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Speaker 1: he was bringing up some things. He's like, well, why

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Speaker 1: is Dorothy younger now? And all? So, why didn't Toto

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Speaker 1: talk in the last film? This film clearly established that

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Speaker 1: animals that come to Oz can talk. Ww come Toto

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Speaker 1: never talked? Uh. That's some bs brilliant observation by your son.

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Speaker 1: I did not notice this myself, but yees. So the

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Speaker 1: premise of this movie is that all the animals in

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Speaker 1: Oz talk uh. And this includes animals that are brought

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Speaker 1: to Oz, such as one of the main characters in

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Speaker 1: this movie, which is a chicken that's like a cool

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Speaker 1: gnarly grandma, and the chicken talks. It didn't talk when

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Speaker 1: it was in Kansas, but it comes to Oz with

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Speaker 1: Dorothy talks now, so yes, you are your son is

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Speaker 1: absolutely correct. Toto should have talked in the original. This

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Speaker 1: is a major oversight. Now, speaking of the chicken whose

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Speaker 1: name is Billina, I have to mention the other. The

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Speaker 1: other reason I really love Returned to Oz is I

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Speaker 1: think it has better companions because, yes, we encounter in

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Speaker 1: this film we do see tin Man again, Scarecrow, cowardly Lion,

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Speaker 1: but Dorothy has basically all new companions that she goes

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Speaker 1: on the advent true with here and it's and I'm

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Speaker 1: going to list them here for it for us so

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Speaker 1: we can get a taste of what's to come. We

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Speaker 1: have Billina, the talking chicken, and this is wonderfully accomplished

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Speaker 1: via live action chicken actors and an incredible chicken puppet

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Speaker 1: that is just lie years ahead of what we saw

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Speaker 1: in Thrilling Bloody Sword last week. Though I do love

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Speaker 1: both chickens, they are both great robotic chickens, but this

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Speaker 1: one is much more convincing as a chicken. Yes, then

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Speaker 1: we have TikTok, who is a rotund, wind up, mustachioed

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Speaker 1: soldier made out of like bronze or brass. I was

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Speaker 1: thinking copper, but yeah, it's one of those. He's he's

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Speaker 1: a metal wind up war machine. Yeah, he's a he's

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Speaker 1: a steampunk soldier and he's fighting on behalf of the

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Speaker 1: Emerald City and Dorothy. Oh, and then the next one

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Speaker 1: we have we have the Gump, and the Gump is

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Speaker 1: basically a junk gollum. It's like junk is put together

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Speaker 1: a moose's head on a couch with some ferns and

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Speaker 1: and whatever else they could scare. They are able to

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Speaker 1: to assemble together, and then it's given life. Uh. And

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Speaker 1: you gotta love the Gump. They like shake some borax

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Speaker 1: powder on it and that makes it come to life. Yeah. Oh,

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Speaker 1: and then we have Jack Pumpkinhead, who is kind of

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Speaker 1: a superior Halloween theme scarecrow sort of guy. Would you

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Speaker 1: say that's fair? Yeah. Jack Pumpkinhead is interesting because he

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Speaker 1: has the scariest form of all of Dorothy's companions, but

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Speaker 1: his nature is to be incredibly innocent and sweet. So

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Speaker 1: that's the crew. That's the adventuring party for this film.

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Speaker 1: But one has to wonder, Okay, wait a minute, what

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Speaker 1: more adventures are there to have in oz because the

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Speaker 1: last time Dorothy was an Osuh, didn't they defeat the

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Speaker 1: Wicked Witch and then uh and then everything was cool

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Speaker 1: and Emerald City like they had a big ceremony. Was

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Speaker 1: basically to celebrate the fact that now everything's good, nothing bad.

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Speaker 1: Every is going to happen again. I was trying to

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Speaker 1: think back to exactly how The Wizard of Oz ended.

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Speaker 1: Did it end with the Scarecrow becoming king of the

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Speaker 1: Emerald City? I don't remember if it did or not.

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Speaker 1: So that's the premise of this movie, is that at

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Speaker 1: the end of the last one, Scarecrow was king. That's

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Speaker 1: a detail that I could see being in the original

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Speaker 1: that I forgot about, but I didn't check to make sure.

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Speaker 1: But either way, things are good in Oz. When when

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Speaker 1: Dorothy leaves, remember she's gonna leave on the balloon. But

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Speaker 1: then the professor or another professor, I think it's the guy,

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Speaker 1: the guy from like the Carnival Barker, Charlatan guy uh,

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Speaker 1: and he's like, oh, he floats away on the balloon.

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Speaker 1: He doesn't know how to bring it back. And then

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Speaker 1: she thinks she's stranded in Oz. But then she clicks

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Speaker 1: her heels together with the ruby slippers and says there's

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Speaker 1: no place like home, and then she wakes up back

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Speaker 1: in her bed and you were there, and you were

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Speaker 1: there and it was great. But basically the pitch here

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Speaker 1: is that in the previous movie, the Previous Adventure anyway,

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Speaker 1: Dorothy greatly destabilized Oz. She ends up installing her own ruler,

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Speaker 1: the Scarecrow, and I get the impression the Scarecrow's rule

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Speaker 1: of Oz last like maybe an afternoon before. He has

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Speaker 1: then conquered by an entity known as the Nome King,

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Speaker 1: and now it's time for Dorothy to come back to

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Speaker 1: Oz and fix everything once more. The villains in this

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Speaker 1: movie are Sue perb just excellent, some of my new

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Speaker 1: favorite movie villains of all time, Jean marsh as Mombi

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Speaker 1: and Nicole Williamson as the Nome King. That they should

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Speaker 1: go in the Hall of Fame of of children's movie

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Speaker 1: fantasy movie villains. Yeah, they absolutely should, and it's and

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Speaker 1: it makes sense because we often forget again just because

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Speaker 1: how well known the thirty nine Wizard of Oz film

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Speaker 1: it was. But Margaret Hamilton's is a terrific villain in

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Speaker 1: that film, playing uh miss Gulch and uh and of

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Speaker 1: course the Wicked Witch of of the East. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's just a great cackling performance that you don't even

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Speaker 1: think of as a performance after a while, like that's

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Speaker 1: that is just the wicked witch on the screen there. Wait?

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Speaker 1: Is she the East or the West? I thought she

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Speaker 1: was the West? Is she the West? Who we have

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Speaker 1: a good No? Wait, the East is the Eastern? Which

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Speaker 1: is the one who had the house dropped on her?

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Speaker 1: Is that correct? I think that is right? Yes, I

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Speaker 1: was correct, Mark Hamilton's is the West. We never see

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Speaker 1: the East. You just see your socks. Both of those

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Speaker 1: witches though out of the picture. Though. At one point Momby,

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Speaker 1: who will get into here in a bit, is described

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Speaker 1: as a witch. So I guess she's keeping the witching

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Speaker 1: tradition going. Yeah. I like how she's first described I

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Speaker 1: think as a princess and then later as a witch.

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Speaker 1: But I guess we'll get into more detail later. Momby

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Speaker 1: is just wonderful. Um well, I guess you already sort

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Speaker 1: of gave the elevator pitch, right. It's like, so Dorothy

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Speaker 1: came in. She did she did a foreign intervention. She

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Speaker 1: installed a puppet ruler in the form of the Scarecrow.

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Speaker 1: Scarecrow has been deposed. Now Dorothy is back to Oz

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Speaker 1: and it's up against the Nome King. That's right, let's

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Speaker 1: go ahead and hear some trailer audio for Return to

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Speaker 1: Oz this summer won't Disney Pictures presents a motion picture

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Speaker 1: fantasy adventure beyond your parished imagination. You'll be transported miraculously

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Speaker 1: back to the enchanted land of Ours, that magical kingdom

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Speaker 1: beloved by young and old for generations. It's just a

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Speaker 1: yellow back, no, Willina, you don't understand. This was the

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Speaker 1: yellow Wick world you share with Dorothy Gale, the shock

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Speaker 1: of finding everything mysteriously changed to everybody, and you'll delight

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Speaker 1: with her discovery of four wonderful new friends who bend

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Speaker 1: together against a wicked queen and the dreaded Nome King.

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Speaker 1: This is the Ours you haven't seen before, and this

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Speaker 1: is the Ours you want to visit again again. From

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Speaker 1: Walt Disney Pictures becomes a whole new world of entertainment.

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Speaker 1: I don't just fly back to Kansas returned, all right? Now,

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Speaker 1: Before we go any any further here, I do want

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Speaker 1: to mention where you can watch this, Where you can

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Speaker 1: watch it just about anywhere. It was a this is

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Speaker 1: a big release. It may not have performed especially well

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Speaker 1: at the box office, I understand, but yeah, you can

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Speaker 1: find it in multiple different forms these days. If you

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Speaker 1: subscribe to Disney Plus, at least in the United States,

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Speaker 1: you can watch it there. That's where we watched it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I watched on Disney Plus two. All right, Well, let's

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Speaker 1: get into some of the people behind this. I'm let's

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Speaker 1: start at the top, and that is with director who

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Speaker 1: also has a screenplay credit on this. It is Walter

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Speaker 1: merch born three, highly influential Hollywood sound and film editor

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Speaker 1: who worked on such pictures as th h X eight,

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Speaker 1: American Graffiti, The Godfather Part two, Apocalypse Now, The English Patient,

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Speaker 1: and I think, uh, I think those are some of

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Speaker 1: the ones where he did sound. But he also was

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Speaker 1: a film editor on such films as Apocalypse Now, Ghost,

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Speaker 1: Romeo Is Bleeding, The Godfather Part three, and much more.

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Speaker 1: The Lucas connection is also interesting because when you look

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Speaker 1: at Walter Merchants directorial credits, there are only two titles there.

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Speaker 1: There's Returned Oz, which of course is what we're discussing

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Speaker 1: here today. This is only film directing credit, and and

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Speaker 1: then he doesn't direct anything else, but he does pop

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Speaker 1: up as a director on a two thousand and eleven

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Speaker 1: episode of Star Wars the Clone Wars uh, the animated series,

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Speaker 1: and I was I was immediately curious, okay, which which

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Speaker 1: episode was this, because I've seen them all with my son,

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Speaker 1: And it is an episode titled The General and it's

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Speaker 1: a pretty great episode. It's one of the episodes in

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Speaker 1: a multi episode story arc concerning the Republic's campaign on

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Speaker 1: a planet called Umbara. So it's this shadowy kind of world.

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Speaker 1: They're not fighting the droids of the Separatists, they're fighting

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Speaker 1: another separatist faction, and the Clones are under the ruthless

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Speaker 1: leadership of one General Palm Krell, who is this forearmed

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Speaker 1: basil esk Uh creature. But he's like a really just

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Speaker 1: ruthless general who is ready to just sacrifice as mini

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Speaker 1: Clone lives as necessary to win the day. So it

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Speaker 1: was it's ultimately, I think one of the one of

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Speaker 1: the best story arcs you see in that series. And

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Speaker 1: so they brought in Walter Merch to direct this one episode,

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Speaker 1: so I thought that was pretty cool. Well for a

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Speaker 1: mostly one and done director's filmography, this is a strong entry. Uh.

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Speaker 1: I much respect to Walter Merch. I wish he had

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Speaker 1: directed more movies. Yeah. Now the screenplay credit. The main

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Speaker 1: screenplay credit on this goes to Gil Dennis, who lived

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Speaker 1: through writer and actor, best known for his work on

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Speaker 1: the screenplays for This Without Evidence and two thousand Fives

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Speaker 1: Walk the Line, the Johnny Cash biopic. As an actor,

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Speaker 1: he played Man with Cigar in nineteen seventy seven's a

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Speaker 1: Racer Head. Oh yeah, I think I read somewhere that

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Speaker 1: he may have been a classmate of uh David Lynch,

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Speaker 1: which would make sense that if he showed up in

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Speaker 1: a razor head. All right, But of course the screenplay

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Speaker 1: is based on the work of L. Frank Baum, whose

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Speaker 1: novels I think in particular, this screenplays based on two novels,

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Speaker 1: Ozma of Oz and The Land of Oz. Bomb lived

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Speaker 1: eighteen fifty six through nineteen nineteen. Bomb was an American

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Speaker 1: author best known for his novel The Wonderful Wizard of Oz,

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Speaker 1: published in nineteen hundred, as well as its many sequels.

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Speaker 1: And this is This was fascinating for me because I

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Speaker 1: really didn't know much about the cinematic history of the

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Speaker 1: Wizard of Oz pre nineteen thirty nine, but even ahead

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Speaker 1: of the nineteen thirty nine film adaptation. This was already

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Speaker 1: a highly successful property. It was a Broadway musical in

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Speaker 1: nineteen o two. The thirty nine film, though momentous, wasn't

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Speaker 1: even the first adaptation. The first attempt was apparently in

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Speaker 1: nineteen o eight with the Fairy log and radio plays,

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Speaker 1: followed by at least a good half dozen silent film

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Speaker 1: adapting the World of Oz. Oh Man, I've got to

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Speaker 1: see the silent films and what they do with with

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Speaker 1: TikTok and stuff. Yeah, they look that. I didn't get

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Speaker 1: a chance to really watching them, but they look interesting.

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Speaker 1: We might have to come back to some of those

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Speaker 1: in the future now. Of course, following the nineteen thirty

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Speaker 1: nine classic, there's still plenty of other dips into the

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Speaker 1: world of Oz. Uh. There was an ultra low budget

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Speaker 1: adaptation titled The Wonderful Land of Oz in nineteen sixty nine.

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Speaker 1: There were a few different animated adaptations, including a ninety

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Speaker 1: two to Hope produced Japanese adaptation. Uh. There's there's really

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Speaker 1: quite a lot of Oz related media out there, including

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Speaker 1: such works as the nineteen seventy five musical and subsequent

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Speaker 1: film that film adaptation, The whiz U the book in

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Speaker 1: Broadway musical Wicked, and then there are all sorts of

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Speaker 1: literary treatments, spinoff solusions and more. Like I had to

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Speaker 1: think back on it because again, thirty nine Wizard of

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Speaker 1: Oz especially such a monolith, you don't even think about

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Speaker 1: the references to it. But like even Stephen King includes

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Speaker 1: more than a little OZ sprinkled throughout his Dark Tower series,

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Speaker 1: and yeah, they're they're. Honestly, just seems no end in

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Speaker 1: sight to our fascination with Oz. Bomb wrote seventeen OZ

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Speaker 1: books during his lifetime, numerous other children's and adventures books

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Speaker 1: as well, But we keep making OZ related media, and

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Speaker 1: it seems like it's just gonna keep going. I've never

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Speaker 1: actually read any of the OZ books, but I'm kind

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Speaker 1: of tempted to check them out, because, at least with

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Speaker 1: the two movies, there's so much unexpected original texture to

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Speaker 1: the fantasy world created here when compared to most fantasy.

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Speaker 1: Because you know, after after you've consumed a decent amount

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Speaker 1: of fantasy, you see a lot of recycled elements. There's

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Speaker 1: sort of, you know, the standard tropes of high fantasy

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Speaker 1: that show up again and again. But but the ODZ

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Speaker 1: world is full of bizarre, unfamiliar things and beings. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And one of the things that I've always hit with

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Speaker 1: when I when I have looked at you know, often

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Speaker 1: just cover art and illustrations from these books, is that

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Speaker 1: I feel like there's this there's certainly this familiar sense

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Speaker 1: to it, all due to the cultural impact of the

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Speaker 1: Wizard of Oz, but also this weird sense that you

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Speaker 1: get from popular fiction that is very much, uh centered

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Speaker 1: in a particular past. You know, like I'm I'm not

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Speaker 1: the intended recipient of these tales, and they're not even

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Speaker 1: though they're in English and in there, you know, they're

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Speaker 1: American stories. I don't feel like I am uh like,

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Speaker 1: like I have all of the the gear lined up

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Speaker 1: in which to receive the message that is being sent

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Speaker 1: to me through it. Like your operating system no longer

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Speaker 1: supports this software. Yeah, Like I've never lived on a

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Speaker 1: farm in the middle of a prairie. How am I

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Speaker 1: supposed to to take some of this stuff? You know,

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Speaker 1: I's see what you're saying. Yeah, all right, well, let's

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Speaker 1: get into the cast here. Let's let's talk about Dorothy. Uh.

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Speaker 1: This film's Doro The was played by Usa Bach, who

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Speaker 1: was born in nineteen seventy four. Still active American actor

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Speaker 1: who might might be better known to some of you

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Speaker 1: for her roles as an adult, but she started out

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Speaker 1: very young and this was her first motion picture. Subsequent

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Speaker 1: films included Valmont in nine Things to Do in Denver

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Speaker 1: when You're Dead in that's an allusion to Warren Zevon

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Speaker 1: song by the way, And of course the big one

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Speaker 1: is The Craft in nine oh Man. Several years back,

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Speaker 1: Rachel and I around Halloween decided to watch The Craft.

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Speaker 1: And I don't know if i'd say it's a good movie,

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Speaker 1: but that was a fun time. I don't think i've

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Speaker 1: ever seen it, but you know, of course I'm familiar

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Speaker 1: with I remember the trailers and all. But but this

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Speaker 1: is a big film. And after this she was in

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Speaker 1: a string of big films, including uh, the Cursed nine

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Speaker 1: adaptation of the Island of Dr Moreau always that Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is the one. If you're asking, is that the

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Speaker 1: Island of Dr Moreau in which yes, it is that. Okay,

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Speaker 1: it is the Marlon Brando one, yes, yes, the one

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Speaker 1: where he allegedly had to be fed his lines through

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Speaker 1: an earpiece because he wouldn't learn them. Yeah, just a mean.

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Speaker 1: Their documentaries about about this just a ridiculous production. That

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Speaker 1: still is it has things going for it. I mean

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Speaker 1: it's it's it's oddly hypnotizing if you catch it on

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Speaker 1: TV and all. I don't think I've ever given it

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Speaker 1: a dedicated viewing. I just it was on a lot

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Speaker 1: for a certain amount of time, I guess back in

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Speaker 1: the late nineties, and so you would catch bits of

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Speaker 1: it and it's it's thoroughly weird and just thoroughly a mess. Okay,

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Speaker 1: sorry to interrupt. American history Acts is another big one,

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Speaker 1: almost famous in two thousand and She was also in

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Speaker 1: Werner Herzog's Bad Lieutenant Port of Call, New Orleans in

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Speaker 1: two thousand nine, which also featured Nick cage Val Kilmer. Again,

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Speaker 1: he was in the Dr Maroe movie Jennifer Coolidge, Brad Dorroff,

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Speaker 1: and Michael Shannon. I've not seen Port of Call New

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Speaker 1: Orleans since it came out, but but I've been meaning

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Speaker 1: to revisit it because that one I remember being a

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Speaker 1: a jaw dropping experience. Another interesting fact for rusa box

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Speaker 1: father Solomon felt Faus was one of the founding members

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Speaker 1: of the psychedelic band Kaleidoscope, and Ball herself is also

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Speaker 1: a musician you know, I feel like we tend to

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Speaker 1: if a if a child performance in a movie is bad,

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Speaker 1: we tend not to dwell on it as much as

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Speaker 1: we might on a notably bad adult performance, because I

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Speaker 1: don't know, you don't want to be mean about a

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Speaker 1: child actor. But I would say not just being nice.

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Speaker 1: She's genuinely great in this great, great performance as Dorothy. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: she has this great, big eyed engagement. She's seen always

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Speaker 1: seems very much a part of the action going on.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes with kid actors this kind of you can kind

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Speaker 1: of just at times just see a child standing on

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Speaker 1: a set. You know, there's this less of a sense

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Speaker 1: that they're connected to their surroundings and the scene and

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Speaker 1: the characters. But she's totally in there. She helps make

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Speaker 1: these scenes which often feature no other human characters. It's

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Speaker 1: all puppets and seats and so forth. I mean, they're

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Speaker 1: humans inside the suits obviously, but but no other visible

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Speaker 1: human in the scene. And she's able to be that

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Speaker 1: human center for everything. And also I would say that

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Speaker 1: she has a confidence, like she's a confident character. It's

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Speaker 1: a confident performance then maybe makes some of the otherwise

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Speaker 1: scary elements a little less scary. You know what I'm saying. Yes,

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Speaker 1: I so I agree with that, And at the same time,

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Speaker 1: she also ROUSI ball also has the natural energy of

426
00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:29,160
Speaker 1: kind of a government created scanner child who might make

427
00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:31,840
Speaker 1: people's heads explode if she doesn't get her string cheese.

428
00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:34,560
Speaker 1: You know, which is I think the appropriate energy for

429
00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:38,119
Speaker 1: a child who is able to uh to journey through

430
00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:42,639
Speaker 1: the myths to another dimension ruled by scary individuals scary entities,

431
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:45,880
Speaker 1: and then moved back again. Yes, so really notably good

432
00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:49,600
Speaker 1: kid performance. But we've got to talk about Nicole Williamson.

433
00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:55,560
Speaker 1: He left me floored in this movie. Yeah, Nicole Williamson

434
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:59,520
Speaker 1: plays to do it's a double role. He plays Dr Worley,

435
00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:05,840
Speaker 1: the electricity obsessed physician, and uh it's he's a psychologist

436
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:10,000
Speaker 1: or what order his credentials exactly? Well, it takes place

437
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:11,760
Speaker 1: in nineteen hundreds. I don't know if they add all

438
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:14,359
Speaker 1: the same categories here. I guess he's a psychiatrist, a

439
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:18,040
Speaker 1: you know, a physical psychiatrist. This this movie, I will say,

440
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:22,520
Speaker 1: um takes a firm stance against mental health. We can explain.

441
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:25,120
Speaker 1: You can explain more about that when we get into

442
00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:27,679
Speaker 1: the plot. But yes, he plays a kind of uh,

443
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:32,080
Speaker 1: his psychiatrist character I think is supposed to be taken

444
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:34,119
Speaker 1: in a very negative way, though it is not as

445
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:36,879
Speaker 1: explicitly evil as the Nome King. But he's great in

446
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,400
Speaker 1: both roles, right, Yeah, because he had the the alter

447
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:41,879
Speaker 1: ego in the Land of Oz is the Nome King.

448
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:46,880
Speaker 1: That's spelled n O n E no G. But yeah.

449
00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:49,920
Speaker 1: Williamson lived nineteen thirty six or two thousand and eleven,

450
00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:52,920
Speaker 1: and he's I think he's always a treat, at least

451
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:55,720
Speaker 1: for the viewer. As discussed in our episode on the

452
00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:00,440
Speaker 1: snake movie Venom, Williamson had a reputation apparently for being

453
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:04,040
Speaker 1: difficult to work with, which again, sometimes you don't know

454
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:08,960
Speaker 1: exactly what to make of these supposed reputations. Um making

455
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:11,560
Speaker 1: movies is obviously complicated and there are a lot of

456
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:15,160
Speaker 1: personalities involved, So I imagine there's some cases out there

457
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,600
Speaker 1: where repute these reputations are well deserved. Other times there

458
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:22,240
Speaker 1: maybe it's a little more complicated than this person was difficult.

459
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,800
Speaker 1: But at any rate, however difficult he was or wasn't

460
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:29,360
Speaker 1: to work with, definitely a great actor. He played Merlin

461
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 1: in movie ex Caliber, which is a really shiny, very

462
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:37,760
Speaker 1: just glistening king Arthur movie. He also was in the

463
00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:41,919
Speaker 1: Spawn movie. Who was in The Exorcist three and he

464
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:45,439
Speaker 1: played Sherlock Holmes in these seven percent solution. This is

465
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:48,000
Speaker 1: the one that was made by Nicholas Meyer, who did

466
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:51,760
Speaker 1: Time after Time. Yeah. Yeah, and and although he was

467
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:53,919
Speaker 1: in tons of other stuff as well, but yeah, in

468
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:57,200
Speaker 1: in this movie. And the thing about the Nome King is,

469
00:25:57,240 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 1: I guess the Nome King is is largely a v

470
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:02,680
Speaker 1: O care Arcter except for the very end of the film.

471
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 1: And even then he's under a lot of makeup, and

472
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 1: I think there's still some voice distortion going on. But

473
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:09,680
Speaker 1: it's still a great role. Oh yeah, yeah, I think

474
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 1: he is hypnotizing. I just wish there were more movies

475
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 1: where he plays a magical big bad of some kind.

476
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:17,639
Speaker 1: What what just occurred to me? When you were talking

477
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 1: about like great but difficult actors. I was thinking, wouldn't

478
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:23,400
Speaker 1: it have been great if you could get a Blade

479
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:27,440
Speaker 1: sequel that was Wesley Snipes versus Nicole Williamson. Oh yeah,

480
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 1: he would have been good. Um have you seen ex

481
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:33,960
Speaker 1: caliber now as she plays Merlin? Oh, it's a great

482
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,719
Speaker 1: performance he gives. He gives a great Merlin all right,

483
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:39,120
Speaker 1: But that's just our our main villain, but we also

484
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,240
Speaker 1: have a secondary villain and that and there is also

485
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 1: a dual role we have. It's Mombi, the Witch the princess,

486
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 1: but also her earthly counterpart is Nurse Wilson. This these

487
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:54,439
Speaker 1: characters are played by Gene Marsh. Geane Marsh is also

488
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:58,480
Speaker 1: just off the charts on this so good yeah born

489
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:04,880
Speaker 1: awesome British actor who appeared in Alfred Hitchcock's excellent nine

490
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:09,639
Speaker 1: thriller Frenzy, and many viewers I think will probably best

491
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 1: remember her for her portrayal of the evil witch queen

492
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:19,320
Speaker 1: about Morda in Willow. Joe, Have you seen Willow? It's

493
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 1: been I haven't seen it since I was a kid, basically,

494
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:24,560
Speaker 1: so I don't really remember it except for little images

495
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:27,520
Speaker 1: here and there I remember. Does that Val Kilmer like

496
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,920
Speaker 1: hanging in a cage? Yes? Yeah, Val Kilmer is all

497
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:33,440
Speaker 1: over the place in this one as well. But yeah,

498
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:36,960
Speaker 1: Jeane Marsh plays this evil witch queen and it's just

499
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:42,240
Speaker 1: just a wonderful, snarling and cold role. This movie has

500
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:45,879
Speaker 1: I think that the greatest witch versus which battle ever

501
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 1: ever committed on film. Right at the right at the

502
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:52,159
Speaker 1: end of the picture, It's just a real like eye gouging,

503
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 1: spell slinging kind of encounter. Highly recommended. Anyway, Marsh Diddle

504
00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:00,159
Speaker 1: a lot of TV during her career, and I I

505
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:04,120
Speaker 1: believe she's retired now, but those TV credits include on

506
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:08,119
Speaker 1: an award winning role on the British drama series Upstairs Downstairs.

507
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:11,480
Speaker 1: She was also on Doctor Who, an episode of Tales

508
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 1: from the Dark Side the Saint, and even a nine

509
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 1: episode of the original Twilight Zone one called The Lonely Uh.

510
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 1: This is one I've I've seen before. This is the

511
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:25,040
Speaker 1: one where a convict living alone on an asteroid which

512
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 1: just looks like the desert, like the California desert or something. Um,

513
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 1: he receives a female robot from his captors to help

514
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 1: keep him company on the asteroid for some reason. And anyway,

515
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 1: Marsh plays the robot woman opposite Jack Warden and Ted

516
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 1: Knight is in that episode two in an uncredited kind

517
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:48,360
Speaker 1: of background role. So something that's interesting about marsh and

518
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:52,120
Speaker 1: Nicole Williamson in this movie is that they both get

519
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:55,040
Speaker 1: to play these dual roles in which in the mundane

520
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:59,600
Speaker 1: world in the world of Kansas, they are are presented

521
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 1: as villains, but in a very subtle way, uh, you know,

522
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 1: sort of blending in with society and doing something that

523
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 1: from Dorothy's perspective in the movie we see as wicked.

524
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:12,920
Speaker 1: But but you know, they're not chewing the scenery, they're

525
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:17,640
Speaker 1: not overt. In fact, they they they're their outward appearances

526
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:19,960
Speaker 1: is sort of friendly, or at least Nicol Williamson says

527
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 1: Gene marsh is kind of cold as the lady in

528
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 1: the clinic. Um. But then you get to flip the

529
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 1: script and go to Oz, where the characters reappear once again,

530
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:32,920
Speaker 1: but as just like frothing monstrous versions of their mundane

531
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 1: world characters. Yes, yes, characters that just demand over the

532
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 1: top performances. Uh just you use every muscle in your face.

533
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:45,440
Speaker 1: Go ahead and crank your eye intensity up to uh

534
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:48,480
Speaker 1: to to eleven or twelve. That's that's the sort of

535
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 1: villains that populate the world of Oz, all right. Now.

536
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:54,920
Speaker 1: A few more performers of note in this um Anti

537
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:59,440
Speaker 1: m anti um in this is played by Piper Laurie bo.

538
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 1: I don't know about you, Joe, but I thought this

539
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:06,120
Speaker 1: was this is rather hilarious given that she plays Carrie's mom,

540
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 1: Margaret White in seventies six is Carrie, both movies about

541
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:14,320
Speaker 1: special girls with special powers, uh and and This is

542
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,880
Speaker 1: the And And Piper Laurie plays the moms, sort of

543
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 1: trying to understand these these these young women. No, I

544
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 1: would say Antam is A is A is a good caregiver,

545
00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:27,960
Speaker 1: like she's you know, she she's trying to be loving

546
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 1: and and she does end up taking uh Dorothy to

547
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 1: a bad place, but she doesn't mean bad. She's trying

548
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 1: to help um and her her benevolence in this movie

549
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 1: is yes, I almost hilariously contrasted with the other main

550
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 1: roles I can think of her in Yeah She's Aside

551
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 1: from Carrie, she was also in nineteen sixes The Hustler,

552
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:52,960
Speaker 1: She was in Twin Peaks and Children of a Lesser God.

553
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 1: Another funny thing Rachel and I always talk about whenever

554
00:30:56,280 --> 00:31:01,120
Speaker 1: Piper Laurie comes up is the the just the absurdity

555
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 1: of the machinations about the mill in Twin Peaks. Remember

556
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 1: that's like one of her main motivations is fighting about

557
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 1: the mill. Oh no, no, I don't remember the Alright,

558
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:14,080
Speaker 1: So those are some of the really those are the

559
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:17,719
Speaker 1: main human characters. A lot of the other characters are

560
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 1: gonna a lot of the other actors and individuals involved here.

561
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:24,280
Speaker 1: They're kind of a mix of actual like physical performers

562
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 1: or or puppeteers or special effects manipulators. Uh so, And

563
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 1: I'm not going to list all of them here, but

564
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 1: some of them stand out because of other work that

565
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:34,600
Speaker 1: they did. I like that in the credits at the

566
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,760
Speaker 1: end of this movie, when the when the non human

567
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:41,480
Speaker 1: characters appear, they will be given multiple credits for multiple

568
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 1: people playing the role, like they put the often the

569
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:47,040
Speaker 1: puppeteer in the voice actors side by side. I think

570
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:50,320
Speaker 1: that's cool. Yeah, yeah, So one name that does stand

571
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 1: out is the voice of Jack Pumpkinhead. It's Brian Henson

572
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:56,720
Speaker 1: for three. This is, of course the son of the

573
00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 1: late Jim Henson, producer, director, actor writer. He's of course

574
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,400
Speaker 1: been involved in tons of Henson projects over the decades,

575
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:07,520
Speaker 1: but I think his most treasured place in my cinematic

576
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 1: memories is as the voice of Hoggle in six Labyrinth.

577
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:14,480
Speaker 1: He was also the voice of the dog on Jim

578
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 1: Henson's Storyteller. Oh okay, and I could be wrong, but

579
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 1: I think he also did some some manipulation on Jack

580
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:24,960
Speaker 1: Pumpkinhead's head in this film as well. I couldn't tell

581
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 1: was Jack pumpkinhead a puppet or was there like a

582
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 1: really skinny actor inside a costume. Oh that's a tough call, right,

583
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:36,000
Speaker 1: without really diving back into the credits, because he is

584
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:38,960
Speaker 1: supposed to look like a thing that is essentially a

585
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 1: magical puppet made out of parts. But there may well

586
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 1: have been a human actor in there at least for

587
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 1: some of the scenes, along with some sort of puppetry

588
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:53,200
Speaker 1: manipulation of the head. And also sometimes the chicken uh

589
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 1: billina is inside the Jack O'Lantern head. So there's a

590
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:00,080
Speaker 1: lot going on here. Oh now this one was and

591
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 1: I wasn't prepared for this, but I mentioned we have

592
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:05,920
Speaker 1: the Gump here, which is this junk gollum that has

593
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:10,240
Speaker 1: a like a stuffed moose's head. And uh, the individual

594
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:14,560
Speaker 1: that's accredited for effects and manipulation on the Gump's head

595
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:19,040
Speaker 1: is Stephen Norrington born four the man who would go

596
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 1: on to direct Blade and did monster effects. Split second. Wow,

597
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:27,360
Speaker 1: So yeah, we've he keeps coming up in the show,

598
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 1: and he's gonna keep coming up. The connections never stop. Yeah, Okay,

599
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 1: Now this next one is more of a physical performance,

600
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 1: and that is the lead wheeler. The Wheelers are kind

601
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:41,719
Speaker 1: of the flying monkeys of this film, only instead of

602
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 1: flying monkeys, instead of some sort of a simian creature

603
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 1: with with feathered wings. They are um like half human

604
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:54,959
Speaker 1: half old timey bicycle people. Or they are a like

605
00:33:55,000 --> 00:34:01,320
Speaker 1: a tribe of post apocalyptic maniacs who have taken up um,

606
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 1: you know, vehicular locomotion instead of walking. Uh, They're they're

607
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:09,319
Speaker 1: really odd. They're they're difficult to describe. Anyway. There's a

608
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:12,680
Speaker 1: whole group of these Wheelers and the lead wheeler is

609
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 1: played by this actor by the name of Ponds Mar.

610
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:18,920
Speaker 1: And I'm glad we finally get to mention ponds Mar

611
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:22,759
Speaker 1: because he's a He's a Florida born artist, effects artist, puppeteer,

612
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 1: and a monster suit guy. He's one of He's just

613
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:29,840
Speaker 1: one of the creepy Wheelers in this movie. But he

614
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:33,560
Speaker 1: is also memorable for playing the reptile man sor Odd

615
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:37,359
Speaker 1: in seven Masters of the Universe and the character Fu

616
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:41,080
Speaker 1: in nine six is the Golden Child. He also did

617
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 1: some dino suit work, both on TVs Dinosaurs the Hinson

618
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 1: Affected sitcom, but also the movie Theodore Rex, in which

619
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:56,280
Speaker 1: he plays a cool talking t Rex opposite Whoopie Goldberg.

620
00:34:56,560 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 1: To clarify, Theodore Rex is a buddy cop move and

621
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:04,640
Speaker 1: the buddy cops are Whoopie Goldberg and a dinosaur. Wo

622
00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 1: have you seen it? No, I haven't seen it. I

623
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:09,279
Speaker 1: just know the premise and and apparently he's like a

624
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 1: rad dinosaur. He looks frat he looks pretty rad at

625
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:17,560
Speaker 1: any rate. Oh Man Ponds mars the lead Wheeler his

626
00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:20,440
Speaker 1: performance and this is just cranked up to about a thousand.

627
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:22,080
Speaker 1: I was thinking, it's kind of like, what have you

628
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:25,279
Speaker 1: took one of Bill Irwin's mind performances like he would

629
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:27,560
Speaker 1: do on Sesame Street and so forth? What if you

630
00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:30,719
Speaker 1: had that level of intensity? But it was also definitely

631
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:33,759
Speaker 1: loud at the same time. Yes, yes, he he is

632
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:37,120
Speaker 1: manic oh and Rob I noticed something. I put this

633
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:40,919
Speaker 1: together about the Wheelers only after I watched the movie,

634
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:43,040
Speaker 1: not while I was watching it. Okay, So throughout the

635
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:46,719
Speaker 1: movie you've got these characters who appear in OZ, but

636
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:49,920
Speaker 1: then there's some sort of counterpart in the in the

637
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 1: mundane world back in Kansas. So of course Mombi is

638
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:56,880
Speaker 1: the is the nurse at the clinic um the nome

639
00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:00,399
Speaker 1: King is the doctor at the clinic. But I think

640
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:06,160
Speaker 1: the Wheelers are the sallow, uh moist looking orderlies at

641
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:09,440
Speaker 1: the clinic who are like wheeling the gurneys around and

642
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:12,040
Speaker 1: they look up, haven't slept in a month? Yeah, I

643
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:14,439
Speaker 1: believe you're right on that, because I think looking back

644
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:16,640
Speaker 1: on it now, I'm not positive about this, but I

645
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:20,920
Speaker 1: think Pondsmr. Is also one of those orderlies. Yeah, I

646
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:24,120
Speaker 1: think he is. He has a very distinctive look that

647
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:26,279
Speaker 1: that shines through even when he's not made up like

648
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:30,279
Speaker 1: some sort of reptile man. Now, speaking of monster suits, Oh,

649
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 1: I have to mention this guy, even though the Cowardly

650
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:34,680
Speaker 1: Lion is not much of a character in this The

651
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:37,840
Speaker 1: Cowardly Lion is basically turned to stone and only becomes

652
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:41,000
Speaker 1: un unfrozen at the very end of the film. But

653
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:44,680
Speaker 1: when he does move again, it's it's this cool monster

654
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:47,160
Speaker 1: suit and the monsters. The man in the monster suit

655
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:50,920
Speaker 1: is John Alexander, who is a guerrilla guy. Gotta love

656
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:54,399
Speaker 1: a good guerrilla guy. Oh, he does gorillas quite often. Yeah.

657
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 1: Oh yeah. Alexander was a former circus performer, cabaret actor,

658
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 1: and the interactor who first climbed into a guerrilla costume

659
00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 1: on screen for N four's Gray Stoke The Legend of

660
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:10,720
Speaker 1: tarzan Um. This was the one that starred Christopher Lambert.

661
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:14,279
Speaker 1: Of course this was his uh. This was his follow

662
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:17,040
Speaker 1: up performance in Return to Oz. But he also played

663
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:20,879
Speaker 1: a gorilla on the TV show Jeeves and Wooster. Uh.

664
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:24,280
Speaker 1: He was in who played a gorilla on Baby's Day Out,

665
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:29,800
Speaker 1: Fierce Creatures, Mighty Joe Young two thousand and elevens Planet

666
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:32,880
Speaker 1: of the Apes, and he, along with a few others

667
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:35,920
Speaker 1: I found this kind of interesting, are credited as quote

668
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:40,880
Speaker 1: unquote mime artists in n Guerrillas in the Midst um.

669
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:43,840
Speaker 1: And the thing about Gorillas in the Midst is Gorillas

670
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:46,880
Speaker 1: in the midst definitely has guerrilla costumes. It has great

671
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:50,839
Speaker 1: gorilla costumes designed by the great Rick Baker. But the

672
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:54,400
Speaker 1: credits don't say don't list humans as guerrillas or or

673
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 1: say guerrilla suit. They say these are mime artists, which

674
00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 1: I thought was interesting. Oh, Gorillas in the missed is

675
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:03,800
Speaker 1: the one that has Sigourney Weaver playing Diane Fosse. Yeah,

676
00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:05,760
Speaker 1: good movie, I guess it. Thought it was a little

677
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:08,480
Speaker 1: over like it was above guerrilla suits for some reason.

678
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:12,240
Speaker 1: But at any rate, John would be above guerrilla suits.

679
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:14,359
Speaker 1: I don't know they like maybe they just they were like,

680
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:17,600
Speaker 1: it's it would be we shouldn't list people as guerrillas,

681
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 1: or maybe they thought they would. They wanted to keep

682
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 1: this suspension of disbelief alive that he's a real guerrillas.

683
00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:27,640
Speaker 1: I don't know, but John Alexander also did Monster Suit,

684
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:30,200
Speaker 1: Creature Suit Work, and Men in Black, One, Into the

685
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:34,759
Speaker 1: Country Bears, Asa Thora and hell Boy too. Now, as

686
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:38,480
Speaker 1: we mentioned, the the original companions from the First Wizard

687
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:40,839
Speaker 1: of Oz are only sort of in this movie. Well,

688
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 1: Scarecrow is in it more. But I felt bad for

689
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:46,200
Speaker 1: the tin Man at the end of this movie because

690
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 1: Dorothy when she's like, you know, saying goodbye to of

691
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:51,680
Speaker 1: course she has she has a pretty extended scene with

692
00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 1: the Scarecrow. She has a real good hug on the

693
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:57,080
Speaker 1: cowardly Lion. It's like, hey, world, budd easy as good

694
00:38:57,080 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 1: to see you again. But then she just this is

695
00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:01,359
Speaker 1: the tin Man. Basically, I don't think she everyone says

696
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:05,040
Speaker 1: anything to him. Yeah, he's barely in this as well.

697
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:08,680
Speaker 1: But it isn't noteworthy that the ten Man is played

698
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:12,560
Speaker 1: by Deep Roy born nineteen fifty seven, the Kenyan British

699
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:15,359
Speaker 1: actor who at four ft four has been a go

700
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:20,120
Speaker 1: to actor for creature performances and diminutive character performances for decades.

701
00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:23,680
Speaker 1: So uh Roy has popped up in Star Wars, The Dark,

702
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:27,520
Speaker 1: Crystal Flash, Gordon Gray Stroke, The Never Ending Story, The

703
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:30,440
Speaker 1: X Files, Planet of the Apes, in which he plays

704
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:34,200
Speaker 1: Guerrilla Kid. That is what is he's credited as, He's

705
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:36,400
Speaker 1: in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. He's been in I

706
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:40,040
Speaker 1: think various Star Trek shows and much more. All right,

707
00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:42,600
Speaker 1: and so just a few behind the scenes credits to

708
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:45,800
Speaker 1: go through real quick. Norman Reynolds was the production designer

709
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:49,480
Speaker 1: on this born British production designer who worked on the

710
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:52,880
Speaker 1: original Star Wars trilogy, Raiders of the Lost Arc, The

711
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:56,239
Speaker 1: Exorcist three, Alien three, and more. The sets in this

712
00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:59,719
Speaker 1: movie are tremendous. They are amazing. Yeah, so I just

713
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 1: had to call that out. Also, this film has some

714
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 1: great claymation, some stop motion animation. He's in clay in it.

715
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:09,719
Speaker 1: That that really if you're a fan of of that

716
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:13,399
Speaker 1: genre of effects like this is definitely an eighties film

717
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:17,200
Speaker 1: to check out. Like when the Rocks are delivering reports

718
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:19,600
Speaker 1: to the Nome King before you ever see him, you

719
00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:22,719
Speaker 1: just see the face and the stone, uh, sort of

720
00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 1: scrunching up and getting worried about giving the Nome King

721
00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:30,919
Speaker 1: bad news. Yeah, yeah, tremendous. So I'm not even gonna

722
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:33,560
Speaker 1: list all the like the Claymation team members that worked

723
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:36,960
Speaker 1: on this, but the team included such artists as Will

724
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 1: Vinton who lived forty seven through two thousand and eighteen,

725
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:44,520
Speaker 1: Joanne Radmilovich, who you can find images of. I included

726
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:47,080
Speaker 1: an image for you here, Joe, where you can see

727
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:51,080
Speaker 1: the artist working on some of the The Nome King's minions. Here,

728
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:55,759
Speaker 1: Bruce McKean, who lived nineteen fifty one. Three. Oh, and

729
00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:59,520
Speaker 1: this is an interesting one. Mark Gustafsson, who is co

730
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:04,960
Speaker 1: director on the upcoming Gamma del Toro Pinocchio movie. And

731
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:08,479
Speaker 1: then there's also Craig Bartlett born nifty six who worked

732
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:11,399
Speaker 1: on Dinosaur Train, which was was is. I'm not sure

733
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 1: if it's still going, but at any rate, Is was

734
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:17,840
Speaker 1: a long running Jim Hinson animated series that I believe

735
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:22,839
Speaker 1: also used poppetry to create the movements for the animated dinosaurs.

736
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:26,680
Speaker 1: And finally, the music. The music credit here goes to

737
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:30,160
Speaker 1: David Shire born ninety seven, American composer who scored a

738
00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:33,279
Speaker 1: ton of films over the years, including All the President's Men,

739
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:37,240
Speaker 1: Oh God, You Devil, Short Circuit, Monkey Shines, and David

740
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:41,279
Speaker 1: Fincher's Zodiac. Trying to remember the music in Zodiac, But

741
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:44,279
Speaker 1: I can't recall the orchestration. All I recall is the

742
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:47,439
Speaker 1: hurdy gurdy man. Yeah, excellent use of the hurdy gurdy man.

743
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:50,520
Speaker 1: But I too don't remember the score offhand. Likewise, I

744
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:52,600
Speaker 1: don't really remember the score from this movie, even though

745
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:54,359
Speaker 1: I watched the other day. It's it's one of those

746
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:57,799
Speaker 1: scores that does its job, does its job well, but

747
00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:00,279
Speaker 1: you don't necessarily think back on it. It's just not

748
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:02,840
Speaker 1: that type of score. Yeah. I mean, a movie like

749
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:04,879
Speaker 1: this depends on the music being good, so it must

750
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:07,560
Speaker 1: have been good, but it didn't stand. I don't recall

751
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:10,759
Speaker 1: what it was. Yeah. It's also not a musical, so uh,

752
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:13,640
Speaker 1: there's not a scene where Dorothy says something and then

753
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:16,239
Speaker 1: the TikTok is like, well that sounds good, Dorothy, But

754
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:18,040
Speaker 1: could you sing a song about it so I can

755
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:21,080
Speaker 1: remember it. No, it doesn't doesn't work like that. Oh,

756
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:25,960
Speaker 1: we are the Wheelers, we will everywhere. Oh man, what

757
00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:27,880
Speaker 1: I I can't I don't even like to think what

758
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:31,439
Speaker 1: sort of musical genre the Wheelers would use. It would

759
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:34,000
Speaker 1: just have to be some sort of like screaming punk

760
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:37,840
Speaker 1: song or something. Yeah, some sort of screeching avant garde

761
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:40,960
Speaker 1: industrial punk. That would be my guess what would Mom

762
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:45,040
Speaker 1: be saying? It would be I want all your heads. Oh,

763
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:47,440
Speaker 1: maybe it would be a different genre. It would certainly

764
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:50,279
Speaker 1: be a different voice depending on which head she chooses. Right, Oh,

765
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:52,719
Speaker 1: that's a good point. And when it comes to the

766
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:54,680
Speaker 1: Nome King, it would just it would be hard rock

767
00:42:54,880 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 1: because that's what he's made of. That's that's good. Okay.

768
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:08,960
Speaker 1: I guess we've already teased the plot a good bit.

769
00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:11,440
Speaker 1: But I think this is one of those ones where

770
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:13,160
Speaker 1: we're not going to try to go scene by scene

771
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 1: and describe the whole movie. Because this is this one.

772
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:19,080
Speaker 1: It's good to to let some surprises remain. But maybe

773
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:21,759
Speaker 1: we should talk about some broad broad sections of the

774
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:25,239
Speaker 1: plot and some of our favorite details. Um So, do

775
00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:28,120
Speaker 1: you want to start with life in Kansas? Let's do it. So.

776
00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:31,320
Speaker 1: The film seems to take place a little while after

777
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:33,920
Speaker 1: the events of the original Wizard of Oz. Dorothy Gale

778
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:37,160
Speaker 1: is back on the farm with Aunt em and Uncle Henry.

779
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:39,759
Speaker 1: They are rebuilding the house because of course it was

780
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:42,840
Speaker 1: it was you know, carried away by the Kansas cyclone

781
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:46,919
Speaker 1: in the previous movie. But Dorothy is, you know, she's

782
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:49,680
Speaker 1: not just totally back to normal. She is obsessed with

783
00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:52,480
Speaker 1: her memories of adventurious in the Land of Oz, to

784
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:54,480
Speaker 1: the point where she can't sleep at night. Like you

785
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:57,000
Speaker 1: see Piper Laurie come into the room and it's like, Dorothy,

786
00:43:57,080 --> 00:43:59,440
Speaker 1: you know, you gotta go to sleep. But she's, you know,

787
00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:02,120
Speaker 1: she's looking at the stars because she's thinking about monsters

788
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:04,920
Speaker 1: and thinking about trees that trees that attack. That's what

789
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:06,400
Speaker 1: they get for living on the middle of nowhere. The

790
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 1: stars are so bright out there, they basically keep you

791
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:13,360
Speaker 1: up at night. It's true. I can report from brief experiences.

792
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:15,640
Speaker 1: If you go to a place with truly dark skies,

793
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:17,960
Speaker 1: uh and and you look up at the stars at night,

794
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:22,799
Speaker 1: it is a borderline hallucinatory experience. Yeah, But okay. Ant

795
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:25,840
Speaker 1: Em and Uncle Henry are troubled by what's happened to Dorothy.

796
00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:30,000
Speaker 1: They think she is suffering from persistent delusions because of

797
00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:33,840
Speaker 1: her belief that Oz is real. So and m gets

798
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:36,040
Speaker 1: the idea that they've got to send her to a

799
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:39,480
Speaker 1: doctor in town who has a machine that can cure

800
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:43,319
Speaker 1: her brain with electricity. Uh So, there are a few

801
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:46,240
Speaker 1: things that are established in this early section on the farm.

802
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:48,840
Speaker 1: We we see you know that that an M and

803
00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:52,040
Speaker 1: Uncle Henry are are are loving parents. You know that

804
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:55,439
Speaker 1: they care about Dorothy and they're trying to do good,

805
00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:58,680
Speaker 1: but also that they're they're disturbed by her seeming to

806
00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:00,840
Speaker 1: believe that Oz is a real ace and she actually

807
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:04,040
Speaker 1: went there, and you see them trying to discourage these

808
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:08,160
Speaker 1: apparent delusions. And meanwhile, Dorothy is just thinking about Oz

809
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:10,360
Speaker 1: all the time. Like she finds a key on the

810
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:12,800
Speaker 1: farm and she's like, see this key is from OZ

811
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:15,400
Speaker 1: because it's got like the handle on it is around

812
00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:17,440
Speaker 1: like an O, and then it's got to slash through

813
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:19,360
Speaker 1: the middle of it that sort of makes like the

814
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:22,799
Speaker 1: crossbar in a Z. So, yeah, this is obviously an

815
00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:25,480
Speaker 1: artifact from OZ. And then I think it literally is.

816
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:29,040
Speaker 1: Later um, but we also we meet a chicken who

817
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:33,520
Speaker 1: can't talk. But this chicken who cannot talk is Dorothy's friend,

818
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:36,400
Speaker 1: and the chicken is threatened by Aunt M because n

819
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:38,439
Speaker 1: M's like, hey, if you don't lay an egg soon,

820
00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:41,640
Speaker 1: I'm gonna turn you into soup. Yeah, yeah, this is Balina.

821
00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:44,680
Speaker 1: Blina is going to be a major character that Helena

822
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:48,080
Speaker 1: is not just there for comic relief. Now, shortly into

823
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:51,240
Speaker 1: the movie, Dorothy is taken by Aunt m to town

824
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:54,399
Speaker 1: and Toto tries to follow them. They have a very

825
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:56,879
Speaker 1: cute dog to play, Toto, but Toto is not does

826
00:45:56,920 --> 00:46:00,239
Speaker 1: not accompany Dorothy on her adventures in this movie. Photo

827
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:03,239
Speaker 1: stays behind and so she's taken to the to the

828
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:05,840
Speaker 1: to town to go to the offices of Dr. J. B.

829
00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:09,239
Speaker 1: Warley played by Nicole Williamson. And again this is going

830
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:13,080
Speaker 1: to be for the electrical cure. Now, as I said earlier,

831
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:16,080
Speaker 1: Nicole will Williamson and Jean marsh are both fabulous in

832
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:18,880
Speaker 1: their roles because, like in the original Wizard of Oz,

833
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:21,680
Speaker 1: they play these characters on both sides of of the

834
00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:26,480
Speaker 1: fantasy divide, right, they have real, mundane characters and fantasy

835
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:31,400
Speaker 1: counterparts in Oz. Nicole Williamson's Earth character Dr. Warley is

836
00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:34,399
Speaker 1: I think wonderfully realized as as the kind of man

837
00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:39,960
Speaker 1: who presents a soft, friendly, reassuring exterior while preparing the

838
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:43,319
Speaker 1: machinery that will steal your soul. Yeah, this is this

839
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:45,959
Speaker 1: is a wonderful performance. And you know, you don't see

840
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:48,200
Speaker 1: a lot of him here. We're not in Kansas for

841
00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:52,080
Speaker 1: too long. But yeah, yeah, he seems he's a he's

842
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:54,760
Speaker 1: he doesn't come off as a suspicious adult. He seems

843
00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:57,759
Speaker 1: like a trusting adult who is in who's rightfully in

844
00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:00,040
Speaker 1: a position of authority and is going to help you.

845
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:02,759
Speaker 1: Like there's a part where he's showing Dorothy. He says, look,

846
00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:06,040
Speaker 1: this machine has a face. Here its eyes, and here

847
00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:09,600
Speaker 1: is its nose. Uh. And of course the machine is

848
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:13,719
Speaker 1: the machine they're going to use to administer electro convulsive

849
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:17,480
Speaker 1: therapy to Dorothy. Now, a brief note on psychiatry in

850
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:21,080
Speaker 1: this film, I would say this movie depicts psychiatry in

851
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:26,600
Speaker 1: general and electro convulsive therapy in particular as cruel and evil,

852
00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:29,480
Speaker 1: which I would say I have twofold thoughts about number one.

853
00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:33,680
Speaker 1: It really works in the context of the plot. But

854
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:35,640
Speaker 1: of course, if you're going to be literal about it,

855
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:38,200
Speaker 1: I think this is very misguided. Like I think if

856
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:40,480
Speaker 1: you get your ideas about E. C. T. From the movie,

857
00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:43,000
Speaker 1: especially like I don't know, movies made in the seventies

858
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:45,200
Speaker 1: and eighties, such as scenes from One flo Over the

859
00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:48,520
Speaker 1: Cuckoo's Nest and stuff. You would basically think that it

860
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:52,719
Speaker 1: is like a pseudo scientific involuntary torture mechanism used to

861
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:57,040
Speaker 1: inflict pain and terror. But I think actually, uh, you

862
00:47:57,080 --> 00:47:59,000
Speaker 1: know a lot of psychiatrists think that there's very good

863
00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:01,680
Speaker 1: evidence that it's helpful and that you'll beat people who

864
00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:04,680
Speaker 1: have experienced severe major depression that did not respond to

865
00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:07,480
Speaker 1: other treatments, and they would say e c T made

866
00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:11,040
Speaker 1: a major positive difference in their lives. Uh. Though, obviously,

867
00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 1: if it were actually administered in the way it is

868
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:17,280
Speaker 1: depicted in this movie, which is like an unexplained, non

869
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:21,080
Speaker 1: consensual punishment inflicted on children for the crime of having

870
00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:24,400
Speaker 1: an imagination, that would be pretty awful. So while you

871
00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:28,120
Speaker 1: should obviously not get your real real world ideas about

872
00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:31,600
Speaker 1: ECT from from the Odds universe, it does make a

873
00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:35,719
Speaker 1: really great plot device, scary plot device within the fantasy

874
00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:39,680
Speaker 1: context of the movie. Yeah, absolutely so. Anyway, Dorothy has

875
00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:42,719
Speaker 1: left at this clinic to uh, to be subjected to

876
00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:45,719
Speaker 1: the electrical cure for her brain, and there's this great

877
00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:48,600
Speaker 1: scene where you know, Dorothy is kind of thinking about

878
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:51,359
Speaker 1: other things while you hear the doctor talking to aunt

879
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:53,480
Speaker 1: Em in the background. Saying, you know, the mind is

880
00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:57,760
Speaker 1: simply a machine. Sometimes the machine has too much electricity

881
00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:02,600
Speaker 1: in it. Uh, And and you get a similar foreboding

882
00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:06,120
Speaker 1: elements from other things at the clinic. So Gene Marsh

883
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:08,799
Speaker 1: plays a what would you call her, she's like an

884
00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:11,719
Speaker 1: assistant sort of a warden at this clinic, and she's

885
00:49:11,719 --> 00:49:13,799
Speaker 1: wearing a dress that looks like it might as well

886
00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:18,480
Speaker 1: be Darth Vaders suit. Yeah. It is like such a

887
00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:21,000
Speaker 1: gothy number. I don't know how else to describe it.

888
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:25,439
Speaker 1: It's just like multiple shades of black and and has

889
00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:29,800
Speaker 1: all of these like crenulations and sort of fabric spikes

890
00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:32,359
Speaker 1: on it. It's like if you combine like a Little

891
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:37,279
Speaker 1: House on the Prairie Dress and the Road Warrior. But

892
00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:40,480
Speaker 1: also here at the clinic, Dorothy meets a mysterious blonde

893
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:43,200
Speaker 1: girl who like appears in her room and warns her

894
00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:45,759
Speaker 1: about Dr Worley's machines. I think, is this the scene

895
00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:48,839
Speaker 1: where they're like hearing people screaming and she says like

896
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:53,279
Speaker 1: those are the people who have been subjected to the machine. Yeah, yeah,

897
00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:56,960
Speaker 1: and that's this is probably the darkest moment in the film.

898
00:49:57,000 --> 00:49:59,520
Speaker 1: I thought for me anyway, like this is this This

899
00:49:59,600 --> 00:50:01,920
Speaker 1: is the moment it where I was sitting there watching it,

900
00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:04,319
Speaker 1: you know, next to my son, and I'm like, this

901
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:07,719
Speaker 1: is maybe a little too dark, but he didn't seem

902
00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:10,160
Speaker 1: to mind, and and you're you're through it pretty quickly.

903
00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:13,000
Speaker 1: And there's a scene where they're like taking Dorothy to

904
00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:15,440
Speaker 1: to be hooked up to the electrical machine, the one

905
00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:17,520
Speaker 1: that had eyes and a nose in a mouth, and

906
00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:20,000
Speaker 1: they're hooking the electrodes up to her head, and just

907
00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:23,080
Speaker 1: when they're getting ready to send the charge the there

908
00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:26,280
Speaker 1: is a storm and lightning strikes and power is lost,

909
00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:30,839
Speaker 1: and Dorothy actually escapes during this lightning storm, along with

910
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:33,560
Speaker 1: that strange blonde girl who she keeps seeing in the mirror,

911
00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:37,279
Speaker 1: and they get swept up in a flood. They're being

912
00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:40,360
Speaker 1: chased by Jean marsh and that that crazy black dress

913
00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:43,120
Speaker 1: and they end up floating away down a torrent in

914
00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:46,960
Speaker 1: a chicken coop. By the way, I couldn't help but

915
00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:49,759
Speaker 1: be reminded of the movie Brazil, which I guess came

916
00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:54,200
Speaker 1: out the same year. But that film has a scene

917
00:50:54,239 --> 00:50:57,560
Speaker 1: where an individuals strapped to a contraption, and in that

918
00:50:57,640 --> 00:51:00,960
Speaker 1: case is about to be tortured when something miraculous happens

919
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:02,880
Speaker 1: that seems to save him, and then at the end

920
00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:05,479
Speaker 1: of the film, all depending on the cut, you find

921
00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:08,799
Speaker 1: out that this was all just what an occurrence at

922
00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:12,279
Speaker 1: what is at al Creek Bridge situation where everything was

923
00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:14,239
Speaker 1: happening in his head and he really died on the

924
00:51:14,280 --> 00:51:17,600
Speaker 1: interrogation table. So I'm I'm happy to say that that

925
00:51:17,719 --> 00:51:20,000
Speaker 1: is not the case in Return to Oz. There's not

926
00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:22,480
Speaker 1: a scene later where you realize, oh, this was all

927
00:51:22,520 --> 00:51:26,439
Speaker 1: just electricity going through Dorothy's brain. Right, No, No, there

928
00:51:26,560 --> 00:51:30,120
Speaker 1: is like a waking up later scene, but it's not that. Yeah,

929
00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:32,120
Speaker 1: she did really go out and get in the mud

930
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:35,920
Speaker 1: and into the river and then seemingly into the ocean. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

931
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:37,680
Speaker 1: it's and it's a good thing she did run out

932
00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:41,440
Speaker 1: into the floodwaters because apparently if she had remained behind

933
00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:45,040
Speaker 1: at the clinic, she maybe she may have been incinerated. Yes,

934
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:48,120
Speaker 1: But so from here we're gonna go to Oz. We

935
00:51:48,120 --> 00:51:51,080
Speaker 1: we gotta we gotta talk Oz. First thing is she

936
00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:54,640
Speaker 1: wakes up in that chicken coop being wrecked in what's

937
00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:57,680
Speaker 1: called the Deadly Desert, which is a plot device that

938
00:51:57,680 --> 00:52:00,640
Speaker 1: that I love. The idea of the deadly desert is

939
00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:03,359
Speaker 1: if you touch the sand, you turn to sand. And

940
00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:07,120
Speaker 1: it's very simple, but it's great. We see a wheeler

941
00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:10,319
Speaker 1: turned to sand at some point and and it's brutal. Yeah,

942
00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:13,000
Speaker 1: that was one of my son's favorite moments. U and

943
00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:14,960
Speaker 1: in part because we hated the wheelers. Like you could

944
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:17,200
Speaker 1: tell the wheelers were bad news. So any bad things

945
00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:20,120
Speaker 1: that happened to the wheelers are somewhat justified. But as

946
00:52:20,160 --> 00:52:22,359
Speaker 1: soon as Dorothy wakes up in the deadly desert, her

947
00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:25,920
Speaker 1: chicken friend Billina is there with her, and Billina can talk. Now,

948
00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:28,440
Speaker 1: remember by the mechanism we discussed earlier, you know, you're

949
00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:30,760
Speaker 1: an animal, you're an OZ. Now you're a talking animal.

950
00:52:31,160 --> 00:52:34,320
Speaker 1: And it turns out all along if Billina could talk,

951
00:52:34,680 --> 00:52:36,960
Speaker 1: we would have noticed that she has like a sassy

952
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:40,920
Speaker 1: old prairie grandma twode. Yeah. Yeah, it's full of of

953
00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:45,240
Speaker 1: fun one liners as well, and occasionally has information and advice.

954
00:52:45,600 --> 00:52:48,160
Speaker 1: So they're going around, they're checking out Oz. They're like,

955
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:51,640
Speaker 1: what's up in OZ? And oh, everything is wrecked. Nothing's

956
00:52:51,680 --> 00:52:53,839
Speaker 1: good anymore. The yellow brick road is all torn up,

957
00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:57,719
Speaker 1: Munchkin Village is gone. I think Emerald City is in ruins.

958
00:52:57,800 --> 00:52:59,560
Speaker 1: That we see it in the distance, and it looks

959
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:04,239
Speaker 1: like it has and shelled. And we gather that when

960
00:53:04,480 --> 00:53:07,719
Speaker 1: Dorothy last left, the Scarecrow had been crowned King of

961
00:53:07,719 --> 00:53:10,600
Speaker 1: Oz in the Emerald City. And I think there's an

962
00:53:10,680 --> 00:53:12,640
Speaker 1: understanding that Scarecrow was going to be a good and

963
00:53:12,760 --> 00:53:15,920
Speaker 1: just ruler. Scarecrow is kind, Scarecrow is thoughtful, you know.

964
00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:18,000
Speaker 1: He he wouldn't do he wouldn't be a bad king.

965
00:53:18,640 --> 00:53:22,200
Speaker 1: But in the meantime, something has gone terribly wrong. And

966
00:53:22,360 --> 00:53:25,440
Speaker 1: I was immediately tempted to think how different the story

967
00:53:25,480 --> 00:53:27,640
Speaker 1: would be if it had been like George R. R.

968
00:53:27,719 --> 00:53:31,000
Speaker 1: Martin's returned to Oz or the friendly Scarecrow has a

969
00:53:31,040 --> 00:53:34,640
Speaker 1: heel turn as soon as Dorothy leaves. He's corrupted by power.

970
00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:39,200
Speaker 1: He immediately institutes, you know, draconian repression, purges of his

971
00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:43,000
Speaker 1: perceived enemies. He sends tin Man to prison. Uh, he's

972
00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:45,640
Speaker 1: got dungeons in the Emerald City. That would have been

973
00:53:45,680 --> 00:53:47,840
Speaker 1: a way to go. But no, it's not that the

974
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:50,440
Speaker 1: Scarecrow had a heel turn. Instead, what happened is that

975
00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:53,480
Speaker 1: the Scarecrow has been deposed and someone else has taken

976
00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:56,520
Speaker 1: over someone bad. But I don't know, wouldn't that have

977
00:53:56,560 --> 00:53:58,320
Speaker 1: been a good twist. What if the Scarecrow was the

978
00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:00,839
Speaker 1: villain of the movie? Yeah, yeah, it would have been.

979
00:54:01,040 --> 00:54:02,680
Speaker 1: It would have been nice and twisty. It seems like

980
00:54:02,680 --> 00:54:04,319
Speaker 1: the kind of thing they would do today if they

981
00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:06,480
Speaker 1: were to make return to Oz, though this film does

982
00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:09,680
Speaker 1: have some neat twists concerning what exactly happened. So anyway,

983
00:54:09,760 --> 00:54:13,840
Speaker 1: Dorothy and Billina investigate everywhere there are statues of human forms,

984
00:54:13,880 --> 00:54:16,560
Speaker 1: and in the ruins of the Emerald City they find

985
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:22,239
Speaker 1: a creepy graffito on a wall that says beware the Wheelers. Yes,

986
00:54:22,320 --> 00:54:25,400
Speaker 1: written in red um. I don't think it's written in blood,

987
00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:28,480
Speaker 1: but but who can say for certain. It looks like

988
00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:32,120
Speaker 1: it's written in red colored pencil. Yeah, or they didn't

989
00:54:32,160 --> 00:54:34,279
Speaker 1: have a lot of blood. It's not drippy blood, but

990
00:54:34,320 --> 00:54:36,560
Speaker 1: it's like we do. We know we're not not going

991
00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:39,120
Speaker 1: to really just the layer it on. We only have

992
00:54:39,120 --> 00:54:41,080
Speaker 1: so much blood to work with here. I'm just saying

993
00:54:41,080 --> 00:54:43,319
Speaker 1: it could be blood. It could be blood. I think

994
00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:46,040
Speaker 1: blood is a scarce resource in Oz now because most

995
00:54:46,120 --> 00:54:48,480
Speaker 1: human bodies have been turned into stone from what we

996
00:54:48,520 --> 00:54:51,560
Speaker 1: can see. And in the ruins of the city, Dorothy

997
00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:54,520
Speaker 1: and Billina get attacked by these horrible creatures called wheelers.

998
00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:56,759
Speaker 1: We've already talked about. They got wheels instead of hands

999
00:54:56,800 --> 00:55:00,839
Speaker 1: and feet. Uh and uh Dorothy uses her special key.

1000
00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:03,000
Speaker 1: I think this is the osky that she found on

1001
00:55:03,040 --> 00:55:05,920
Speaker 1: the farm in Kansas, Is that right? He uses that

1002
00:55:05,960 --> 00:55:08,719
Speaker 1: to open a door inside a secret room. There she

1003
00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:12,440
Speaker 1: finds this bulbous mechanical man. And this is one of

1004
00:55:12,440 --> 00:55:17,279
Speaker 1: our heroes, TikTok. I loved TikTok. He is like a

1005
00:55:17,280 --> 00:55:21,680
Speaker 1: wind up copper ronan. He is a mechanical warrior whose

1006
00:55:21,719 --> 00:55:25,080
Speaker 1: master has been deposed and now he's in the service

1007
00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:29,440
Speaker 1: of Dorothy. Great design, great effects with this uh, this

1008
00:55:29,600 --> 00:55:33,560
Speaker 1: being the uh like a lot of it is puppetry,

1009
00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:36,040
Speaker 1: but also it's clearly a person in a suit, and

1010
00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:38,560
Speaker 1: it's they're able to pull off this wonderful gait, this

1011
00:55:38,640 --> 00:55:42,799
Speaker 1: wonderful walking style of of TikTok. It's it's, it's, it's

1012
00:55:42,800 --> 00:55:44,640
Speaker 1: absolutely wonderful. He was one of my favorite parts of

1013
00:55:44,680 --> 00:55:47,440
Speaker 1: the whole film. He's sort of a little bit teddy

1014
00:55:47,560 --> 00:55:51,319
Speaker 1: roosevelt ish, but other elements too, like he's blustery and

1015
00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:54,359
Speaker 1: headstrong and as a big walrus mustache a metal one

1016
00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:58,600
Speaker 1: of course, but I thought a really interesting recurring theme

1017
00:55:59,320 --> 00:56:01,680
Speaker 1: is that we are equally reminded throughout the movie that

1018
00:56:01,760 --> 00:56:05,440
Speaker 1: TikTok is not alive. Like when Dorothy first finds him,

1019
00:56:05,440 --> 00:56:07,920
Speaker 1: there are instructions on his back for how to wind

1020
00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:10,759
Speaker 1: him up and make him work. But uh and and

1021
00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:12,680
Speaker 1: one of the things the instruction says is like the

1022
00:56:12,760 --> 00:56:16,720
Speaker 1: you know, the TikTok, the mechanical man, does everything but live.

1023
00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:22,360
Speaker 1: But what does that mean? So TikTok clearly has a mind,

1024
00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:25,920
Speaker 1: he has a personality, and he even has preferences in

1025
00:56:25,960 --> 00:56:28,879
Speaker 1: the ability to take offense. Like there's a scene later

1026
00:56:29,239 --> 00:56:32,520
Speaker 1: when Jack Pumpkinhead suggests throwing TikTok out of the gump

1027
00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:36,280
Speaker 1: aircraft because he's the heaviest of them, and TikTok clearly

1028
00:56:36,320 --> 00:56:38,920
Speaker 1: takes a front like he is annoyed by this suggestion.

1029
00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:42,640
Speaker 1: And yet there are other times where TikTok seems to

1030
00:56:43,200 --> 00:56:45,920
Speaker 1: reference the fact that he is not alive as a

1031
00:56:45,960 --> 00:56:48,799
Speaker 1: reason for not being concerned about something. It's like, you know,

1032
00:56:48,800 --> 00:56:52,000
Speaker 1: I don't really worry about getting turned into an inanimate

1033
00:56:52,040 --> 00:56:55,319
Speaker 1: object because I'm not alive anyway. Well, in oz being

1034
00:56:55,920 --> 00:56:58,640
Speaker 1: a non living entity, I think you have a lot

1035
00:56:58,640 --> 00:57:00,520
Speaker 1: of company. It's not one of these story ways where

1036
00:57:00,680 --> 00:57:03,120
Speaker 1: oh I am the lonely being that is a machine

1037
00:57:03,160 --> 00:57:05,640
Speaker 1: and not a human but has feelings. In Oz, everywhere

1038
00:57:05,680 --> 00:57:09,040
Speaker 1: you look there's some sort of reanimated form. There's some

1039
00:57:09,280 --> 00:57:12,960
Speaker 1: their machine people all over the place of just different varieties.

1040
00:57:13,239 --> 00:57:15,439
Speaker 1: I think Returned to Oz explores some of the same

1041
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:20,320
Speaker 1: thematic territories Terminator to can this machine be a good parent?

1042
00:57:20,440 --> 00:57:23,720
Speaker 1: Does this machine no? Does it understand why we cry?

1043
00:57:23,760 --> 00:57:26,560
Speaker 1: Even if it's something it can never do? So? Anyway,

1044
00:57:26,600 --> 00:57:28,680
Speaker 1: I thought that this is like a kind of a

1045
00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:32,680
Speaker 1: thoughtful movie for kids that plants some interesting philosophical ideas

1046
00:57:32,720 --> 00:57:34,520
Speaker 1: in their mind. But what does it mean to be alive?

1047
00:57:35,200 --> 00:57:38,080
Speaker 1: But also I like the the wind up and wind

1048
00:57:38,120 --> 00:57:42,200
Speaker 1: down dynamic with TikTok. So TikTok has uh winding keys

1049
00:57:42,240 --> 00:57:46,640
Speaker 1: for three different things, thought, speech, and action, and at

1050
00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:49,720
Speaker 1: various times throughout the movie, one of the three but

1051
00:57:49,800 --> 00:57:52,560
Speaker 1: not the other two will wind down, including a very

1052
00:57:52,600 --> 00:57:55,720
Speaker 1: funny scene where they're trying where all the good characters

1053
00:57:55,720 --> 00:57:58,320
Speaker 1: are trying to like work on a project together, but

1054
00:57:58,480 --> 00:58:03,320
Speaker 1: TikTok's thoughts down while his speech and action are still active. Yeah,

1055
00:58:03,400 --> 00:58:06,600
Speaker 1: I love this as well the three um wind up

1056
00:58:06,640 --> 00:58:09,720
Speaker 1: line down dynamics, Because on one level, I think it's

1057
00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:12,560
Speaker 1: it's a good way to get kids potentially thinking about

1058
00:58:12,880 --> 00:58:15,960
Speaker 1: like what what what the human experiences, you know, like

1059
00:58:16,000 --> 00:58:18,720
Speaker 1: thinking of our of our own mental facult of faculty.

1060
00:58:18,720 --> 00:58:20,600
Speaker 1: He's not as a single entity, but this thing that

1061
00:58:20,680 --> 00:58:24,120
Speaker 1: sort of emerges out of, out of, out of out

1062
00:58:24,120 --> 00:58:29,680
Speaker 1: of different things and different stimuli and different pro processes. So, uh,

1063
00:58:29,720 --> 00:58:32,960
Speaker 1: it's it's an interesting way to look at a in

1064
00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:35,360
Speaker 1: this case of fantastic being, but also to sort of

1065
00:58:36,160 --> 00:58:39,240
Speaker 1: turn that reflection back on yourself at times. But so

1066
00:58:39,360 --> 00:58:42,280
Speaker 1: we said the TikTok, he's a soldier, right, he's a

1067
00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:45,360
Speaker 1: warrior for the Scarecrow. And he's been left behind by

1068
00:58:45,400 --> 00:58:48,880
Speaker 1: the Scarecrow. I think to wait for Dorothy. So here's

1069
00:58:48,920 --> 00:58:52,080
Speaker 1: Dorothy and and now they're they're teaming up. So right

1070
00:58:52,120 --> 00:58:55,320
Speaker 1: from the outset, TikTok is ready to beat up some wheelers.

1071
00:58:55,320 --> 00:58:59,880
Speaker 1: He like walks out, Oh he there's a there's a fight.

1072
00:59:00,160 --> 00:59:03,640
Speaker 1: Seeing that you could regard as underwhelming because TikTok is

1073
00:59:03,680 --> 00:59:07,200
Speaker 1: just basically spinning around in a circle whacking wheelers. Uh,

1074
00:59:07,640 --> 00:59:10,840
Speaker 1: but it I don't know something about it is really good. Yeah,

1075
00:59:10,960 --> 00:59:14,080
Speaker 1: it's it's it's intensely satisfying, in part because the Wheelers

1076
00:59:14,080 --> 00:59:18,200
Speaker 1: have established themselves as a total menace and they're acting

1077
00:59:18,280 --> 00:59:21,920
Speaker 1: is over the top. Here comes TikTok. He absolutely whales

1078
00:59:22,040 --> 00:59:25,600
Speaker 1: on them, and then he captures the lead Wheeler, who

1079
00:59:25,680 --> 00:59:28,360
Speaker 1: is again the most animated and annoying of the Wheelers,

1080
00:59:28,640 --> 00:59:31,600
Speaker 1: and begins to roughly interrogate him. And we were just

1081
00:59:31,720 --> 00:59:34,880
Speaker 1: cheering for TikTok during this scene. We're like, yeah, get him, TikTok.

1082
00:59:35,960 --> 00:59:39,920
Speaker 1: It's great. And of course under under torture essentially no

1083
00:59:40,080 --> 00:59:43,320
Speaker 1: under you know threat. Uh. The lead Wheeler reveals that

1084
00:59:43,400 --> 00:59:46,800
Speaker 1: the Scarecrow has been overthrown and taken prisoner by the

1085
00:59:46,880 --> 00:59:49,680
Speaker 1: Nome King, and to learn more about what's going on,

1086
00:59:49,720 --> 00:59:52,280
Speaker 1: they have to go and visit the castle of Princess

1087
00:59:52,400 --> 01:00:04,440
Speaker 1: mom By. Yeah, so that's what happens next. The whole

1088
01:00:04,520 --> 01:00:07,320
Speaker 1: section in Momby's Castle in the middle of the movie

1089
01:00:07,480 --> 01:00:10,400
Speaker 1: is just awesome. Uh, where do you want to start here?

1090
01:00:10,640 --> 01:00:14,160
Speaker 1: So Momby's palace is like in many ways it's made

1091
01:00:14,160 --> 01:00:16,640
Speaker 1: of mirrors, or at least sort of. The throne room is,

1092
01:00:16,760 --> 01:00:20,320
Speaker 1: which is very creepy, especially in scenes where like Dorothy's

1093
01:00:20,320 --> 01:00:23,480
Speaker 1: trying to find a door, figure out what to do. Yeah,

1094
01:00:23,720 --> 01:00:27,240
Speaker 1: her whole palace is just oh my goodness, sets are amazing.

1095
01:00:27,960 --> 01:00:30,800
Speaker 1: Even sets, even parts of the palace that you don't

1096
01:00:30,800 --> 01:00:33,600
Speaker 1: really spend much time in just look incredible. Like they

1097
01:00:33,640 --> 01:00:36,320
Speaker 1: walk through a bedroom and you do nothing ever happens

1098
01:00:36,360 --> 01:00:38,160
Speaker 1: with the bedroom, but you see it in the background

1099
01:00:38,320 --> 01:00:42,320
Speaker 1: is just just stupendous. It's like a this weird, evil

1100
01:00:42,360 --> 01:00:47,720
Speaker 1: princess cathedral and then you venture into this hall of heads.

1101
01:00:48,120 --> 01:00:53,040
Speaker 1: This is where Momby stores these various stolen female heads

1102
01:00:53,120 --> 01:00:57,320
Speaker 1: that she has, stores them alive and we'll use them. Uh.

1103
01:00:57,600 --> 01:00:59,479
Speaker 1: We've mentioned this on the show before because somebody wrote

1104
01:00:59,520 --> 01:01:02,200
Speaker 1: in on listener mail about this. How curious it is

1105
01:01:02,240 --> 01:01:06,640
Speaker 1: that Momby is always the same Momby, but Momby takes

1106
01:01:06,680 --> 01:01:09,480
Speaker 1: off her original head and puts on these other heads,

1107
01:01:09,960 --> 01:01:12,480
Speaker 1: and while she has these other heads on, she again

1108
01:01:12,760 --> 01:01:16,200
Speaker 1: is still Momby. But it also is stated in the

1109
01:01:16,240 --> 01:01:19,920
Speaker 1: film where it's it's sort of uh suggested in the

1110
01:01:19,920 --> 01:01:22,520
Speaker 1: film where it's hypothesized by one of the characters that

1111
01:01:23,240 --> 01:01:25,440
Speaker 1: if she does something with one head on and she

1112
01:01:25,480 --> 01:01:28,760
Speaker 1: switches to another head, she might not remember something she

1113
01:01:28,840 --> 01:01:33,400
Speaker 1: did previously, which just sends my head really trying to

1114
01:01:33,400 --> 01:01:36,320
Speaker 1: figure out how all of that works. Yeah, her personality

1115
01:01:36,400 --> 01:01:38,360
Speaker 1: always seems to be the same, but I think it's

1116
01:01:38,440 --> 01:01:42,520
Speaker 1: Jack Pumpkinhead says that because Dorothy is about to meet him. Uh.

1117
01:01:42,640 --> 01:01:45,600
Speaker 1: He says that Momby locked him up in the tower,

1118
01:01:45,720 --> 01:01:48,000
Speaker 1: but then forgot he was in there because she switched

1119
01:01:48,040 --> 01:01:50,080
Speaker 1: heads and that movie, he was in a different head.

1120
01:01:50,400 --> 01:01:52,840
Speaker 1: And when we first meet her, it's not Jeane Marsh's head,

1121
01:01:52,880 --> 01:01:55,040
Speaker 1: so we don't, you know, our guard is down. We're

1122
01:01:55,040 --> 01:01:57,680
Speaker 1: not seeing like, oh, that's the scary lady, remember her

1123
01:01:57,680 --> 01:02:00,400
Speaker 1: from the clinic. It's just some other ladies. She looked nice,

1124
01:02:00,880 --> 01:02:02,880
Speaker 1: and you know, she's sitting there playing a harp, and

1125
01:02:02,920 --> 01:02:06,240
Speaker 1: then she and Dorothy start talking. But then she's like, Dorothy,

1126
01:02:06,520 --> 01:02:08,320
Speaker 1: I'm gonna need to cut your head off and keep

1127
01:02:08,320 --> 01:02:10,760
Speaker 1: it in my keep it in my collection. But you're

1128
01:02:10,760 --> 01:02:12,400
Speaker 1: not old enough yet, so I got to lock you

1129
01:02:12,400 --> 01:02:14,600
Speaker 1: in a tower for a few years. Then your head

1130
01:02:14,600 --> 01:02:16,320
Speaker 1: will get bigger and then I'll cut it off and

1131
01:02:16,320 --> 01:02:19,080
Speaker 1: then I'll keep it. Yeah, she she realized, is an investment.

1132
01:02:19,080 --> 01:02:21,120
Speaker 1: We're gonna wait for you to mature a bit. We

1133
01:02:21,680 --> 01:02:24,040
Speaker 1: she didn't want to wear a little girl for Ruza

1134
01:02:24,080 --> 01:02:26,960
Speaker 1: bak Head. She wants to wear the craft for Rusa

1135
01:02:27,000 --> 01:02:28,680
Speaker 1: balk Head and she don't have to wait a few

1136
01:02:28,760 --> 01:02:31,360
Speaker 1: years for that to happen. So off to the the

1137
01:02:31,880 --> 01:02:35,720
Speaker 1: dungeon chamber with you, up to the locked room, and

1138
01:02:35,760 --> 01:02:39,440
Speaker 1: so she's thrown in there with Jack Pumpkinhead, who she meets.

1139
01:02:40,200 --> 01:02:43,160
Speaker 1: But also there are all these pieces that will eventually

1140
01:02:43,200 --> 01:02:46,040
Speaker 1: become the gump because at this point we're dealing with

1141
01:02:46,080 --> 01:02:49,240
Speaker 1: an escape plan. Uh, they find out about this what

1142
01:02:49,360 --> 01:02:51,960
Speaker 1: is it the is it the power of powder of

1143
01:02:52,000 --> 01:02:54,880
Speaker 1: animation or the powder of life? Powder of life? Yeah,

1144
01:02:54,880 --> 01:02:58,280
Speaker 1: it's a magical powder that Momby has that she sprinkles

1145
01:02:58,280 --> 01:03:02,200
Speaker 1: over inanimate objects to wag them up. Um. And this

1146
01:03:02,280 --> 01:03:05,160
Speaker 1: is originally I think where Jack Pumpkinhead comes from. That

1147
01:03:05,280 --> 01:03:09,280
Speaker 1: he's like he's made of sticks and a pumpkin. Though wait,

1148
01:03:09,360 --> 01:03:11,920
Speaker 1: I think he was originally a real boy. Maybe, I'm

1149
01:03:12,200 --> 01:03:15,600
Speaker 1: not sure. He he asked if he can call Dorothy

1150
01:03:15,640 --> 01:03:18,120
Speaker 1: mom and she allows it, which is a little creepy

1151
01:03:18,280 --> 01:03:20,479
Speaker 1: but it's also kind of sweet at the same time.

1152
01:03:20,520 --> 01:03:23,960
Speaker 1: I don't know. Yeah, but anyway, they realized we got

1153
01:03:24,040 --> 01:03:26,480
Speaker 1: to get out of here. Well, we could fly out

1154
01:03:26,480 --> 01:03:29,360
Speaker 1: of here if only we had a winged mount. Well,

1155
01:03:29,520 --> 01:03:33,080
Speaker 1: we could make one out of this moose's head or

1156
01:03:33,160 --> 01:03:35,520
Speaker 1: Gump's head on the wall and this couch, and we

1157
01:03:35,520 --> 01:03:37,760
Speaker 1: could use these pieces of this this fern to make

1158
01:03:37,800 --> 01:03:40,640
Speaker 1: wings and this will somehow work. But we need that

1159
01:03:40,760 --> 01:03:43,520
Speaker 1: powder in order to bring all of this to life

1160
01:03:43,520 --> 01:03:46,520
Speaker 1: and fly out the window. Where's the powder? Well, we

1161
01:03:46,560 --> 01:03:50,400
Speaker 1: find out it's stored with Mombi's original head. So Dorothy

1162
01:03:50,520 --> 01:03:52,760
Speaker 1: is going to have to sneak out and make your

1163
01:03:52,760 --> 01:03:57,320
Speaker 1: way through that museum of heads and try and find

1164
01:03:57,400 --> 01:04:00,800
Speaker 1: the original head and steal the power her from that

1165
01:04:01,160 --> 01:04:04,840
Speaker 1: head locker. It's a heist at the head repository. Yeah,

1166
01:04:04,880 --> 01:04:08,160
Speaker 1: and this is an amazing sequence and also just a

1167
01:04:08,160 --> 01:04:12,680
Speaker 1: wonderfully magical dark fantasy sequence because you know, it's the

1168
01:04:12,680 --> 01:04:15,720
Speaker 1: scene where Dorothy's creeping down the hallway all these silent

1169
01:04:15,800 --> 01:04:18,760
Speaker 1: heads are in the are in their chambers, and then

1170
01:04:18,760 --> 01:04:21,560
Speaker 1: when she gets there she opens it up. There's Jeane

1171
01:04:21,560 --> 01:04:24,560
Speaker 1: Marsh's head, and there the original Mombi head. And of

1172
01:04:24,600 --> 01:04:27,200
Speaker 1: course it's not gonna go without without at least a

1173
01:04:27,240 --> 01:04:31,240
Speaker 1: single hiccup, because she ends up waking up the mombie head,

1174
01:04:31,520 --> 01:04:33,680
Speaker 1: All of the heads wake up all of the heads

1175
01:04:33,680 --> 01:04:37,320
Speaker 1: are screaming, and then she takes off with the powder. Meanwhile,

1176
01:04:37,360 --> 01:04:39,920
Speaker 1: Mombi's body is waking up from the bad OI do

1177
01:04:40,000 --> 01:04:43,320
Speaker 1: see something with the bedroom, and that's right, but it's

1178
01:04:43,360 --> 01:04:46,400
Speaker 1: like walking around like a zombie with no head coming after.

1179
01:04:46,920 --> 01:04:50,560
Speaker 1: It's a wonderful nightmare. So with the Gump aircraft they've

1180
01:04:50,560 --> 01:04:53,120
Speaker 1: put together again, it's like a moose type thing, a

1181
01:04:53,200 --> 01:04:55,760
Speaker 1: gump head that's mounted and then it goes with some

1182
01:04:55,800 --> 01:04:59,320
Speaker 1: couches and wings made out of plant leaves, like I

1183
01:04:59,360 --> 01:05:02,720
Speaker 1: think Poem gives her something. Uh, they make this aircraft

1184
01:05:02,760 --> 01:05:04,880
Speaker 1: and they fly out to escape, and they're gonna fly

1185
01:05:05,200 --> 01:05:07,640
Speaker 1: to the Nome King's mountain. Though it's very funny because

1186
01:05:07,680 --> 01:05:09,360
Speaker 1: the Gump is like, I don't know how to fly.

1187
01:05:09,680 --> 01:05:12,320
Speaker 1: I'm just ahead. I've never I never flew in lives,

1188
01:05:12,360 --> 01:05:14,120
Speaker 1: so I don't know what I'm doing. Yeah, the Gump.

1189
01:05:14,360 --> 01:05:17,000
Speaker 1: The Gump is wonderful and has lots of little snide

1190
01:05:17,040 --> 01:05:19,280
Speaker 1: comments about how he liked it better when he was

1191
01:05:19,640 --> 01:05:23,640
Speaker 1: just ahead. This current life is a little more challenging

1192
01:05:23,680 --> 01:05:25,840
Speaker 1: than he likes a little more moving around. So they

1193
01:05:25,880 --> 01:05:28,840
Speaker 1: fly over the deadly desert to get to the Nome

1194
01:05:28,920 --> 01:05:32,320
Speaker 1: King's mountain. He lives in a mountain, and oh, the

1195
01:05:32,440 --> 01:05:35,200
Speaker 1: Nome King when they get there. I feel like here

1196
01:05:35,240 --> 01:05:37,240
Speaker 1: maybe we should start to describe in a little more

1197
01:05:37,600 --> 01:05:40,800
Speaker 1: in lighter detail. But warning, if you're going to watch

1198
01:05:40,840 --> 01:05:42,640
Speaker 1: the movie, you don't want anything about the ending at

1199
01:05:42,680 --> 01:05:45,640
Speaker 1: all spoiled. Maybe maybe you can tune out here until

1200
01:05:45,640 --> 01:05:47,959
Speaker 1: you've seen it, because we will discuss a few things.

1201
01:05:48,000 --> 01:05:51,080
Speaker 1: But the Nome King is so cool. He is some

1202
01:05:51,200 --> 01:05:56,600
Speaker 1: kind of humanoid elemental being of mineral origin. He's a

1203
01:05:56,640 --> 01:06:01,400
Speaker 1: greedy but clever sorcerer of rocks. Yeah, and the claymation

1204
01:06:01,440 --> 01:06:03,919
Speaker 1: here is just wicked. So throughout the movie we've seen

1205
01:06:04,000 --> 01:06:07,760
Speaker 1: this like rock Face doing reports of what's happening to

1206
01:06:08,000 --> 01:06:11,439
Speaker 1: the Nome King, and that's all stop motion animation. That's

1207
01:06:11,720 --> 01:06:15,560
Speaker 1: very good. But here we start seeing claymation in general

1208
01:06:15,600 --> 01:06:19,520
Speaker 1: stop motion of uh, the King himself and the sorcery

1209
01:06:19,560 --> 01:06:22,760
Speaker 1: that he casts. Like one of my favorite animations is

1210
01:06:22,840 --> 01:06:25,320
Speaker 1: that there's a that like Dorothy and her friends are

1211
01:06:25,320 --> 01:06:28,040
Speaker 1: in a cave with the Nome King, and occasionally the

1212
01:06:28,080 --> 01:06:30,520
Speaker 1: Nome King will open a portal to go into a

1213
01:06:30,680 --> 01:06:33,280
Speaker 1: into a palace with these halls, and the way the

1214
01:06:33,320 --> 01:06:36,480
Speaker 1: portal opens is the rock turns into many hands that

1215
01:06:36,600 --> 01:06:40,000
Speaker 1: start pulling the like pulling a hole open in the

1216
01:06:40,080 --> 01:06:43,200
Speaker 1: rock itself. Yeah, all of these effects, all of the

1217
01:06:43,240 --> 01:06:45,200
Speaker 1: effects they used to bring the Nome King to live,

1218
01:06:45,280 --> 01:06:47,520
Speaker 1: are amazing, and most of them are these kind of

1219
01:06:47,520 --> 01:06:51,000
Speaker 1: stop motion effects. Though, as as we'll discuss, something is

1220
01:06:51,040 --> 01:06:57,280
Speaker 1: happening that makes the nome King increasingly more human inform uh.

1221
01:06:57,360 --> 01:07:01,680
Speaker 1: And so we eventually get William send himself there as

1222
01:07:01,720 --> 01:07:03,680
Speaker 1: the nome King that covered under a lot of like

1223
01:07:03,840 --> 01:07:07,400
Speaker 1: rock makeup and like a rocky beard and so forth. Right,

1224
01:07:07,440 --> 01:07:11,360
Speaker 1: So the nome King has Dorothy and her friends play

1225
01:07:11,400 --> 01:07:13,880
Speaker 1: a guessing game where he says, oh, yes, I have

1226
01:07:14,080 --> 01:07:18,720
Speaker 1: the scarecrow captive, and I've turned him into an inanimate object,

1227
01:07:18,800 --> 01:07:22,000
Speaker 1: into an ornament. And if you can walk around my

1228
01:07:22,040 --> 01:07:25,760
Speaker 1: palace and guess which ornament is the scarecrow, then I'll

1229
01:07:25,840 --> 01:07:28,520
Speaker 1: let him go. But if you guess wrong three times

1230
01:07:28,520 --> 01:07:30,640
Speaker 1: in a row, I'm gonna turn you into an ornament.

1231
01:07:30,640 --> 01:07:32,760
Speaker 1: Actually he doesn't tell them that at the beginning. It

1232
01:07:33,200 --> 01:07:36,560
Speaker 1: happens first too, uh, I think the gump And then

1233
01:07:36,600 --> 01:07:38,560
Speaker 1: they're like, wait, you didn't say that was gonna happen,

1234
01:07:38,560 --> 01:07:42,880
Speaker 1: And he's like Oh you didn't ask. Yeah, he's he's

1235
01:07:42,960 --> 01:07:45,000
Speaker 1: he's adding a lot of rules after the fact, though

1236
01:07:45,040 --> 01:07:48,320
Speaker 1: at the same time, are heroes are not really asking

1237
01:07:48,400 --> 01:07:51,720
Speaker 1: for a full breakdown of the terms ahead of time either. Yeah,

1238
01:07:52,000 --> 01:07:55,920
Speaker 1: so you get the sense that he is made of rock,

1239
01:07:56,200 --> 01:07:58,840
Speaker 1: but he sort of wants to become a human for

1240
01:07:58,880 --> 01:08:04,320
Speaker 1: some reason. And the more humans he absorbs and turns

1241
01:08:04,400 --> 01:08:07,560
Speaker 1: into inanimate objects are not necessarily humans living things he

1242
01:08:07,600 --> 01:08:11,520
Speaker 1: absorbs and turns into inanimate objects, the more he becomes

1243
01:08:11,560 --> 01:08:14,840
Speaker 1: a fleshly creature instead of a rock. Yeah, And it's

1244
01:08:14,880 --> 01:08:18,920
Speaker 1: not explained in the film why this is. And I

1245
01:08:19,000 --> 01:08:21,599
Speaker 1: kind of like that. I like, I mean, anytime there's

1246
01:08:21,600 --> 01:08:25,880
Speaker 1: sort of grandiose evil magic going on in something, it's

1247
01:08:25,880 --> 01:08:27,760
Speaker 1: even more creepy if there's stuff going on that you

1248
01:08:27,800 --> 01:08:31,400
Speaker 1: don't fully understand. Like, we don't know why he wants

1249
01:08:31,600 --> 01:08:34,880
Speaker 1: this transformation to occur or why it is occurring, but

1250
01:08:35,040 --> 01:08:38,080
Speaker 1: it is at least a byproduct of the evil that

1251
01:08:38,120 --> 01:08:40,920
Speaker 1: he's doing. Oh, we should say the entire time there

1252
01:08:40,920 --> 01:08:44,960
Speaker 1: with the nome king and playing this scussing game the balina,

1253
01:08:45,040 --> 01:08:49,320
Speaker 1: the chicken is hiding inside of Jack Pumpkinhead's pumpkin Head

1254
01:08:49,680 --> 01:08:52,960
Speaker 1: He's like, right, she's in the jack o lantern. Oh,

1255
01:08:53,000 --> 01:08:54,840
Speaker 1: so this is another important thing. Now that we've mentioned

1256
01:08:54,840 --> 01:08:57,840
Speaker 1: the chicken. It has been established a few different times

1257
01:08:57,920 --> 01:09:02,000
Speaker 1: that the chicken is noteworthy in Oz and that and

1258
01:09:02,080 --> 01:09:04,599
Speaker 1: that the Nome King will want to know about this chicken,

1259
01:09:04,680 --> 01:09:06,840
Speaker 1: and and it's even implied that the chicken is really

1260
01:09:06,880 --> 01:09:09,400
Speaker 1: the most important member of this party. He is of

1261
01:09:09,439 --> 01:09:13,760
Speaker 1: the most interest to the Nome King. And Momby realizes this,

1262
01:09:13,880 --> 01:09:17,439
Speaker 1: and Momby is rushing to the Nome King's castle. I

1263
01:09:17,439 --> 01:09:21,040
Speaker 1: guess to warn him of the chicken, and she does so.

1264
01:09:21,200 --> 01:09:23,720
Speaker 1: Oh God, I love this sequence. She does so by

1265
01:09:23,760 --> 01:09:26,960
Speaker 1: getting all of her wheelers together and lashing them to

1266
01:09:27,040 --> 01:09:30,959
Speaker 1: a chariot and then climbing aboard the chariot and whipping

1267
01:09:31,000 --> 01:09:34,240
Speaker 1: them to get them to ride at top speed and

1268
01:09:34,320 --> 01:09:37,560
Speaker 1: take her to the Nome King's castle. It is tremendous.

1269
01:09:37,600 --> 01:09:40,759
Speaker 1: They're traveling through some kind of underground tunnel that cuts

1270
01:09:40,840 --> 01:09:45,360
Speaker 1: underneath the deadly desert. I think, yeah, it is. It's

1271
01:09:45,400 --> 01:09:49,640
Speaker 1: wonderful and eyebrow raising. Uh it's it's it's tremendous. And

1272
01:09:49,760 --> 01:09:52,360
Speaker 1: she does get there, but I don't think she's able

1273
01:09:52,360 --> 01:09:55,559
Speaker 1: to really uh, to warn him sufficiently, at least not

1274
01:09:55,680 --> 01:09:58,280
Speaker 1: enough to to save him in the end. I don't

1275
01:09:58,320 --> 01:10:00,559
Speaker 1: remember what she says, but like when he gets there,

1276
01:10:00,840 --> 01:10:04,559
Speaker 1: he's very haughty. He's like bow bow lower, yeah, and

1277
01:10:04,560 --> 01:10:07,240
Speaker 1: then he locks her in a cage. I believe, so

1278
01:10:07,680 --> 01:10:11,200
Speaker 1: ultimately it doesn't really make a huge difference that she

1279
01:10:11,320 --> 01:10:13,280
Speaker 1: made it there at all. But the nome King here

1280
01:10:13,320 --> 01:10:17,439
Speaker 1: is becoming more and more humanoid in appearance, and more

1281
01:10:17,479 --> 01:10:20,920
Speaker 1: and more of Dorothy's friends are being turned into unknown

1282
01:10:21,000 --> 01:10:23,640
Speaker 1: ornaments in the room, and I think this is Is

1283
01:10:23,680 --> 01:10:26,400
Speaker 1: this also where we find out how the nome King

1284
01:10:26,479 --> 01:10:30,000
Speaker 1: was able to carry out this um this attack on

1285
01:10:30,040 --> 01:10:32,800
Speaker 1: the Emerald City? Is this when he reveals his feet?

1286
01:10:33,040 --> 01:10:37,599
Speaker 1: Oh no, explain that, well, there's he reveals that it's

1287
01:10:37,680 --> 01:10:39,439
Speaker 1: it's mentioned earlier in the film that you know that

1288
01:10:39,720 --> 01:10:42,840
Speaker 1: I think it's an m asking. Well, Dorothy, if all

1289
01:10:42,840 --> 01:10:45,439
Speaker 1: this odd stuff is real, then where are these ruby

1290
01:10:45,479 --> 01:10:47,679
Speaker 1: slippers that you speak of that gave you this power?

1291
01:10:47,720 --> 01:10:49,720
Speaker 1: And she said, well, they fell off when I was

1292
01:10:49,880 --> 01:10:52,479
Speaker 1: returning to Earth. And they're like, okay, well see there's

1293
01:10:52,479 --> 01:10:56,040
Speaker 1: no proof. While the nome King reveals that he is

1294
01:10:56,080 --> 01:10:59,880
Speaker 1: wearing the ruby slippers that they basically fell into his lap,

1295
01:11:00,400 --> 01:11:03,080
Speaker 1: and he used the power of the ruby slippers too

1296
01:11:03,120 --> 01:11:06,960
Speaker 1: then overthrow the Scarecrow King. And so we see this

1297
01:11:07,160 --> 01:11:11,639
Speaker 1: the see the Nome King wearing the shiny ruby slippers.

1298
01:11:11,640 --> 01:11:14,599
Speaker 1: They're great twist. I think. Dorothy tries to go for them,

1299
01:11:14,600 --> 01:11:16,479
Speaker 1: and he's like no, no, when he tucks them back

1300
01:11:16,600 --> 01:11:20,840
Speaker 1: under um. And in the end, how how are they

1301
01:11:20,840 --> 01:11:22,559
Speaker 1: going to defeat the Nome King? I mean, the Nome

1302
01:11:22,680 --> 01:11:25,080
Speaker 1: King is so powerful? What what kind of power do

1303
01:11:25,160 --> 01:11:27,640
Speaker 1: they have that could stand up against a creature of

1304
01:11:27,680 --> 01:11:31,840
Speaker 1: such such immense potency? Well, well, for starters, Dorothy is

1305
01:11:31,880 --> 01:11:35,680
Speaker 1: able to retrieve some of her friends from ornament transformation.

1306
01:11:36,200 --> 01:11:39,080
Speaker 1: But but this just makes the Nome King all the

1307
01:11:39,120 --> 01:11:43,880
Speaker 1: more enraged. He turns into this gigantic stone monster and

1308
01:11:44,000 --> 01:11:46,240
Speaker 1: he has decided he's going to eat them. He started

1309
01:11:46,280 --> 01:11:48,400
Speaker 1: he like picks up the gump and like eats the

1310
01:11:48,439 --> 01:11:51,800
Speaker 1: gump's body, uh, and like the head falls off, and

1311
01:11:51,840 --> 01:11:56,080
Speaker 1: then he goes to eat Jack pumpkinhead instead as well.

1312
01:11:56,680 --> 01:11:59,920
Speaker 1: And but Balina the chicken is in Jack pumpkin heads

1313
01:12:00,240 --> 01:12:04,040
Speaker 1: head and it is finally time for Billina to lay

1314
01:12:04,080 --> 01:12:08,360
Speaker 1: her egg. She lays the egg inside Jack Pumpkin head's head,

1315
01:12:08,760 --> 01:12:11,760
Speaker 1: It rolls out of the pumpkin and goes down the

1316
01:12:11,960 --> 01:12:16,720
Speaker 1: Nome King's throat. And then oh, the nome King realizes

1317
01:12:16,760 --> 01:12:20,919
Speaker 1: that something has gone terribly wrong because the big twist

1318
01:12:21,439 --> 01:12:25,679
Speaker 1: is that eggs are poison to the Nome king. Right,

1319
01:12:25,800 --> 01:12:28,200
Speaker 1: we we didn't know this until it is finally revealed.

1320
01:12:28,240 --> 01:12:30,519
Speaker 1: We knew that, we kind of got the sense that

1321
01:12:30,560 --> 01:12:32,439
Speaker 1: the chicken was a threat, but we didn't know why

1322
01:12:32,479 --> 01:12:34,320
Speaker 1: the chicken was a threat to the Nome King's rule.

1323
01:12:34,439 --> 01:12:39,839
Speaker 1: Now it is revealed. The egg is uh has terrible

1324
01:12:39,880 --> 01:12:42,200
Speaker 1: magic in it, the terrible It does terrible things to

1325
01:12:42,240 --> 01:12:45,760
Speaker 1: the Nome King's power, which I guess it's not I

1326
01:12:45,760 --> 01:12:47,519
Speaker 1: don't know. I didn't do a lot of deep thinking

1327
01:12:47,560 --> 01:12:53,000
Speaker 1: about this, but eggs do factor into various magical rituals

1328
01:12:53,040 --> 01:12:55,200
Speaker 1: and so forth. There is something about the egg that

1329
01:12:55,360 --> 01:12:58,519
Speaker 1: is often seen as sacred, and somehow the egg is

1330
01:12:58,560 --> 01:13:02,160
Speaker 1: able to undo everything that the Nome King is doing. Yeah,

1331
01:13:02,400 --> 01:13:08,080
Speaker 1: the eggs symbolizes potential, symbolizes transformation. Yeah yeah, it has

1332
01:13:08,120 --> 01:13:12,160
Speaker 1: a lot of symbolic loading, so that makes sense. But

1333
01:13:12,240 --> 01:13:15,800
Speaker 1: of course, so yeah, Nome King is defeated. And then Scarecrow,

1334
01:13:15,880 --> 01:13:18,160
Speaker 1: who has been restored from I think he had been

1335
01:13:18,200 --> 01:13:21,320
Speaker 1: turned into it like a just a big green gym Uh,

1336
01:13:21,640 --> 01:13:24,479
Speaker 1: he's back to he's back into his form. Dorothy is

1337
01:13:24,520 --> 01:13:27,280
Speaker 1: able to restore everybody who got turned into an ornament,

1338
01:13:27,720 --> 01:13:29,799
Speaker 1: and then they all go back to the Emerald City

1339
01:13:30,200 --> 01:13:32,880
Speaker 1: where the Scarecrow's back on the throne. Everybody's happy again.

1340
01:13:33,360 --> 01:13:37,360
Speaker 1: Mombi is in a cage and then they're like, they're like, oh, well,

1341
01:13:37,400 --> 01:13:39,680
Speaker 1: you know, she doesn't have powers anymore, so she'll be

1342
01:13:39,680 --> 01:13:42,000
Speaker 1: all right. I know. It's The Wheelers are also just

1343
01:13:42,160 --> 01:13:44,600
Speaker 1: hanging around at this point in the movie, and I

1344
01:13:44,640 --> 01:13:48,680
Speaker 1: was thinking, the Wheelers, Yeah, they just get by with

1345
01:13:48,680 --> 01:13:52,320
Speaker 1: the sorry like they seem to be the scourge of

1346
01:13:52,360 --> 01:13:56,960
Speaker 1: the of the realm there for a while. But everything's forgiving.

1347
01:13:57,040 --> 01:14:00,320
Speaker 1: Everybody's happy again. How many denizens of Oz that they

1348
01:14:00,360 --> 01:14:05,840
Speaker 1: eat or whatever they do. But also we get another twist,

1349
01:14:05,880 --> 01:14:08,479
Speaker 1: which is that the blonde girl that Dorothy had seen

1350
01:14:08,520 --> 01:14:12,920
Speaker 1: several times already is uh her name is Ozma, and

1351
01:14:12,960 --> 01:14:15,400
Speaker 1: what is her role? She's like the rightful Princess of

1352
01:14:15,400 --> 01:14:20,200
Speaker 1: Oz or something. Yeah, she's like the Yeah, she's like

1353
01:14:20,280 --> 01:14:22,760
Speaker 1: she's the good She's the good witch of this movie. Basically,

1354
01:14:22,760 --> 01:14:25,400
Speaker 1: and she's been sort of in the background helping things

1355
01:14:25,439 --> 01:14:28,360
Speaker 1: move along the whole time. But then also there's this

1356
01:14:28,439 --> 01:14:31,200
Speaker 1: idea that like she is also connected to Dorothy, she's

1357
01:14:31,200 --> 01:14:33,599
Speaker 1: going to be She is like the way that Dorothy

1358
01:14:33,680 --> 01:14:37,840
Speaker 1: remains in Oz and in the earth realm at the

1359
01:14:37,880 --> 01:14:41,680
Speaker 1: same time. She is Dorothy's counterpart, so Dorothy can be

1360
01:14:41,760 --> 01:14:44,280
Speaker 1: on both sides of the mirror. Dorothy can go back

1361
01:14:44,320 --> 01:14:47,439
Speaker 1: to Kansas and be home, but also stay in Oz

1362
01:14:47,479 --> 01:14:49,760
Speaker 1: in the form of this other girl and and be

1363
01:14:50,040 --> 01:14:53,400
Speaker 1: be the princess there. And Ozma is like basically like, hey,

1364
01:14:53,479 --> 01:14:55,000
Speaker 1: you can still be in Oz all the time in

1365
01:14:55,000 --> 01:14:57,160
Speaker 1: your head. Just don't tell annem about it. Just be

1366
01:14:57,240 --> 01:15:00,639
Speaker 1: quiet about it, and everything's fine. And then we get

1367
01:15:00,640 --> 01:15:04,200
Speaker 1: a very sweet reunion back in Kansas where Toto finds

1368
01:15:04,240 --> 01:15:06,799
Speaker 1: Dorothy washed up on a washed up on a grimy

1369
01:15:07,200 --> 01:15:10,240
Speaker 1: river shore and and then there's Uncle Henry and they

1370
01:15:10,280 --> 01:15:13,120
Speaker 1: all get back together again and it's very sweet. Yeah. Yeah,

1371
01:15:13,240 --> 01:15:18,280
Speaker 1: though we do see um Mombi's earthly counterpart. This would

1372
01:15:18,280 --> 01:15:21,720
Speaker 1: be a nurse Wilson. We see her being taken away

1373
01:15:21,800 --> 01:15:24,400
Speaker 1: in the back of a carriage that also kind of

1374
01:15:24,400 --> 01:15:27,960
Speaker 1: looks like a cage, and then and then it's revealed

1375
01:15:28,000 --> 01:15:32,240
Speaker 1: that Dr Warley died in the fire because he had

1376
01:15:32,640 --> 01:15:36,759
Speaker 1: basically the clinic facilities that had been struck by lightning,

1377
01:15:37,080 --> 01:15:39,400
Speaker 1: and he went back in to save his machine and died.

1378
01:15:39,880 --> 01:15:42,519
Speaker 1: He was he was too devoted to his machines and

1379
01:15:42,600 --> 01:15:45,640
Speaker 1: it killed him. Yeah, so very very Frank Herbert kind

1380
01:15:45,640 --> 01:15:48,479
Speaker 1: of moment there where. Oh yes, uh, this character died

1381
01:15:48,520 --> 01:15:54,520
Speaker 1: off screen, so returned to OZ. Deeply strange, fantastically imaginative,

1382
01:15:55,320 --> 01:15:59,760
Speaker 1: totally wonderful, one of my favorite new fantasy movies or

1383
01:15:59,800 --> 01:16:02,960
Speaker 1: kids movies. Uh yeah, it's just a blast. I I

1384
01:16:03,120 --> 01:16:05,600
Speaker 1: richly enjoyed it. I mean, obviously parents will have to

1385
01:16:05,640 --> 01:16:08,600
Speaker 1: make their own decisions about films like this. I was

1386
01:16:08,680 --> 01:16:10,680
Speaker 1: researching it a little bit before we watched it. I

1387
01:16:10,720 --> 01:16:14,400
Speaker 1: went to the IMDb parental guidance area where the users

1388
01:16:14,400 --> 01:16:18,080
Speaker 1: submit stuff about films, and they did have the chicken

1389
01:16:18,200 --> 01:16:22,040
Speaker 1: lays and egg in the Nome King's head as an

1390
01:16:22,040 --> 01:16:25,240
Speaker 1: example of violence in the picture. I didn't really think

1391
01:16:25,240 --> 01:16:29,880
Speaker 1: of it as violence per se um, but it's certainly weird.

1392
01:16:30,200 --> 01:16:33,000
Speaker 1: It is an act of inadvertent poisoning. So I guess

1393
01:16:33,040 --> 01:16:35,040
Speaker 1: it would be like a scene where if a character

1394
01:16:35,200 --> 01:16:39,599
Speaker 1: accidentally put arsenic in somebody else's sandwich. Yeah, I guess,

1395
01:16:40,600 --> 01:16:43,439
Speaker 1: but anyway, Yes, returned to Oz. I absolutely loved it.

1396
01:16:43,479 --> 01:16:45,080
Speaker 1: I think it's a lot of fun. And I'd love

1397
01:16:45,120 --> 01:16:46,760
Speaker 1: to hear from folks out there though, because, like it's

1398
01:16:46,800 --> 01:16:49,960
Speaker 1: like we've been saying, Joe and I only just watched

1399
01:16:49,960 --> 01:16:53,360
Speaker 1: this movie and full as adults. We'd love to hear

1400
01:16:53,360 --> 01:16:55,320
Speaker 1: from folks who saw it back in the day. What

1401
01:16:55,439 --> 01:16:58,559
Speaker 1: was it like seeing Return to Oz on the big

1402
01:16:58,600 --> 01:17:03,040
Speaker 1: screen in five or seeing it on VHS once it

1403
01:17:03,120 --> 01:17:06,640
Speaker 1: was available on home video? How did other people in

1404
01:17:06,680 --> 01:17:09,280
Speaker 1: your life presented or respond to it? Did you hear

1405
01:17:09,320 --> 01:17:11,559
Speaker 1: people saying, well, this is not what OZ is all about?

1406
01:17:12,000 --> 01:17:14,400
Speaker 1: What is this gum business? It's it's supposed to be

1407
01:17:14,439 --> 01:17:16,400
Speaker 1: the cowardly lion? Did you have to put up with

1408
01:17:16,400 --> 01:17:19,639
Speaker 1: all that? Was it effective? All of this is fair

1409
01:17:20,040 --> 01:17:22,320
Speaker 1: fair play. I'd love to hear from everyone. So that's

1410
01:17:22,320 --> 01:17:25,400
Speaker 1: it for this edition of Weird House Cinema. Just a reminder,

1411
01:17:25,439 --> 01:17:28,960
Speaker 1: Weird House Cinema publishes every Friday in the Stuff to

1412
01:17:28,960 --> 01:17:32,160
Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind podcast feed. We are primarily a science podcast,

1413
01:17:32,160 --> 01:17:34,519
Speaker 1: but on Fridays we set aside most serious concerns and

1414
01:17:34,560 --> 01:17:37,479
Speaker 1: just talk about a weird film. I blog about these

1415
01:17:37,840 --> 01:17:40,599
Speaker 1: episodes at smut music dot com and if you use

1416
01:17:40,760 --> 01:17:43,680
Speaker 1: letterboxed dot com, that's l E T T E R

1417
01:17:43,760 --> 01:17:46,519
Speaker 1: b o x D dot com. You'll find us on there.

1418
01:17:46,520 --> 01:17:49,160
Speaker 1: Are user name is weird House, and we keep a

1419
01:17:49,200 --> 01:17:52,320
Speaker 1: Weird House Cinema episode list going there where you can

1420
01:17:52,320 --> 01:17:55,559
Speaker 1: see all the films that we've covered thus far. As

1421
01:17:55,600 --> 01:17:58,559
Speaker 1: of this episode, it is eighty two films that we've covered,

1422
01:17:58,960 --> 01:18:02,040
Speaker 1: and I'll often ahead and add the next film on

1423
01:18:02,080 --> 01:18:03,560
Speaker 1: the list so you can sort of look ahead and

1424
01:18:03,600 --> 01:18:06,519
Speaker 1: see what we're talking about next. Huge thanks as always

1425
01:18:06,560 --> 01:18:09,960
Speaker 1: to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you

1426
01:18:09,960 --> 01:18:12,480
Speaker 1: would like to get in touch with us with feedback

1427
01:18:12,520 --> 01:18:15,400
Speaker 1: on this episode or any other, to suggest a topic

1428
01:18:15,439 --> 01:18:17,519
Speaker 1: for the future, or just to say hi, you can

1429
01:18:17,560 --> 01:18:20,800
Speaker 1: email us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind

1430
01:18:21,000 --> 01:18:30,720
Speaker 1: dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of

1431
01:18:30,760 --> 01:18:33,400
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for My Heart Radio,

1432
01:18:33,600 --> 01:18:36,280
Speaker 1: visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

1433
01:18:36,320 --> 01:18:37,679
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.