WEBVTT - From the Vault: The Hearth, Part 1 0:00:06.320 --> 0:00:08.880 Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name 0:00:08.960 --> 0:00:11.559 is Robert Lamb. Today is Saturday, so we have a 0:00:11.640 --> 0:00:14.000 vault episode for you. This is going to be The 0:00:14.120 --> 0:00:17.079 hearth Part one. This is part one of two, originally 0:00:17.079 --> 0:00:21.040 published twelve seventeen, twenty twenty four. This is our look 0:00:21.160 --> 0:00:25.400 at the powerful resonance of the Fireplace and Hearthstone in 0:00:25.480 --> 0:00:34.440 human culture, psychology, and myth. Let's jump right in. As 0:00:34.479 --> 0:00:37.080 I drew in my head and was turning around on 0:00:37.159 --> 0:00:39.800 the chimney, Saint Nicholas came with a bound. He was 0:00:39.880 --> 0:00:42.040 dressed all in fur from his head to his foot, 0:00:42.040 --> 0:00:44.440 and his clothes were all tarnished with ashes and soot. 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:46.400 He was dressed all in fur from his head to 0:00:46.479 --> 0:00:49.000 his foot, and his clothes were all tarnished with ashes 0:00:49.040 --> 0:00:51.040 and soot. He was dressed all in fur from his 0:00:51.120 --> 0:00:53.720 head to his foot, and his clothes were all tarnished 0:00:53.760 --> 0:00:58.440 with ashes and soot. 0:00:59.560 --> 0:01:03.560 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of iHeartRadio. 0:01:09.680 --> 0:01:12.039 Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name 0:01:12.120 --> 0:01:13.200 is Robert Lamb. 0:01:13.200 --> 0:01:16.000 And I am Joe McCormick, and today we're going to 0:01:16.040 --> 0:01:19.319 be kicking off a series of episodes on the Fireplace 0:01:19.520 --> 0:01:24.000 and the hearth, the infrastructure through which humans brought their 0:01:24.040 --> 0:01:28.960 campfires indoors, inside their homes and other dwelling structures. We're 0:01:28.959 --> 0:01:32.000 going to look at how fireplaces work, where they come from, 0:01:32.080 --> 0:01:35.920 and what they mean. And just got to apologize again 0:01:35.959 --> 0:01:38.160 this week like I did last week. I've still got 0:01:38.160 --> 0:01:40.240 a cold. It's either round two of this cold or 0:01:40.280 --> 0:01:42.840 a whole new cold has come into my life. So 0:01:43.440 --> 0:01:47.080 so apologies for the sinus noises today, but I'm doing 0:01:47.120 --> 0:01:47.640 what I can. 0:01:47.920 --> 0:01:52.400 Twelve days of Christmas over there, Yeah they're gathering around 0:01:52.440 --> 0:01:55.040 the fire, but anyway, Yeah, So I wanted to do 0:01:55.160 --> 0:02:00.640 a series of episodes looking into fireplaces, and sometimes when 0:02:00.640 --> 0:02:04.800 you're trying to understand what an experience means to people, 0:02:05.280 --> 0:02:08.239 you can really get some good insights by looking at 0:02:08.360 --> 0:02:13.680 attempts to simulate that experience in its literal absence, like 0:02:13.880 --> 0:02:18.000 which elements do people consider worth copying, which elements can 0:02:18.040 --> 0:02:22.760 be ignored, which elements are accentuated or exaggerated in simulation. 0:02:23.600 --> 0:02:29.120 And this got me thinking about the Netflix Megahit Fireplace 0:02:29.240 --> 0:02:32.880 for your Home, which, for those of you somehow not familiar, 0:02:33.440 --> 0:02:37.200 is an hour long, unbroken shot of logs burning in 0:02:37.240 --> 0:02:40.919 a Fireplace, and it is the hottest movie of the 0:02:41.040 --> 0:02:43.200 year for I don't know, seven or eight years running 0:02:43.240 --> 0:02:47.799 whenever this thing started playing on Netflix. I just checked 0:02:47.800 --> 0:02:50.600 on Netflix and there are three episodes. This is not 0:02:50.639 --> 0:02:55.040 a sponsored episode, by the way. Netflix had nothing to 0:02:55.040 --> 0:02:57.160 do with this. I just think this is an interesting 0:02:57.160 --> 0:02:59.680 subject on its own, and we'll explain more as we 0:02:59.720 --> 0:03:02.079 go on. But I checked on Netflix and there were 0:03:02.120 --> 0:03:06.600 three episodes of season one of Fireplace for your Home. 0:03:07.360 --> 0:03:10.760 There's Crackling yule Log Fireplace. That one's the one that 0:03:10.800 --> 0:03:13.200 plays music like Joy to the World and we Wish 0:03:13.200 --> 0:03:15.960 you a Merry Christmas kind of Muzaki versions of thing 0:03:16.160 --> 0:03:18.200 hard pass on that one, yeah, And then there's the 0:03:18.240 --> 0:03:21.480 second one that's just crackling Fireplace, so no music. You 0:03:21.560 --> 0:03:23.920 just get the pop, the hiss and all that good stuff. 0:03:24.120 --> 0:03:24.639 There you go. 0:03:24.960 --> 0:03:27.679 And then there's a third one with music, again I 0:03:27.720 --> 0:03:30.000 guess in different music than the first one. I don't. 0:03:30.160 --> 0:03:32.440 I think we mainly just listen. The one we put 0:03:32.480 --> 0:03:33.640 on is the one without music. 0:03:33.919 --> 0:03:35.520 That's the way to go. You can add your own 0:03:35.560 --> 0:03:36.280 music that way. 0:03:37.120 --> 0:03:39.360 So I don't remember what year it was we first 0:03:39.400 --> 0:03:42.320 discovered this thing, but it has played a number of 0:03:42.320 --> 0:03:44.680 times in our household, and so I was wondering, Rob, 0:03:44.720 --> 0:03:46.440 do you do you have experience with this thing? 0:03:47.160 --> 0:03:50.280 Yes, I do. You know, I've never owned or rented 0:03:50.320 --> 0:03:52.880 a home that had a hearth or a fireplace in it, 0:03:53.440 --> 0:03:55.800 not even like some of the scaleback versions where it's 0:03:55.800 --> 0:03:58.920 like gas generated and you know, or has some sort 0:03:58.920 --> 0:04:02.240 of other effect. So I have to depend on what 0:04:02.280 --> 0:04:03.800 a lot of people have to depend on for the 0:04:03.840 --> 0:04:07.240 spiritual center of their home, and that's the television. And 0:04:07.320 --> 0:04:10.160 so of course I fire up a fake fireplace. And 0:04:10.440 --> 0:04:13.960 the one that's been our favorite for several years running 0:04:14.000 --> 0:04:16.880 now is on Netflix. So again, credit where's credit where 0:04:16.880 --> 0:04:19.720 credits due? They'll cancel your favorite shows after two seasons, 0:04:19.720 --> 0:04:23.479 but they will give you an amazing virtual fireplace, and 0:04:23.680 --> 0:04:27.760 our favorite is Netflix the Witcher Fireplace. It is a 0:04:27.800 --> 0:04:31.560 Witcher tie in, and it's not much to it. It's simple, 0:04:31.560 --> 0:04:34.320 it's awesome. It's just kind of a medieval fantasy world 0:04:34.400 --> 0:04:38.320 fire pit, like you know, wrought iron or something. It's blazing, 0:04:38.440 --> 0:04:42.240 it's crackling. There's no Henry cavill or Unifer back there 0:04:42.320 --> 0:04:44.080 and a hot tub or anything like that. It's just 0:04:44.160 --> 0:04:48.080 the fire pit and it's great. My only criticism is 0:04:48.120 --> 0:04:50.960 that it's only an hour long, and I either can't 0:04:51.040 --> 0:04:52.960 or I don't know how to put it on repeat, 0:04:53.000 --> 0:04:55.040 because I would just prefer to have it on all 0:04:55.080 --> 0:04:56.280 the time during the holidays. 0:04:56.880 --> 0:04:59.159 What's this emblazoned on the side of it? Is it 0:04:59.200 --> 0:05:00.560 like a crack in or something? 0:05:01.920 --> 0:05:05.120 Since I've seen this show, that's probably like some sort 0:05:05.120 --> 0:05:08.080 of a monster you know, Henry Cavill's a monster hunter 0:05:08.160 --> 0:05:10.000 in that the Witch is a monster hunter and that's 0:05:10.120 --> 0:05:11.680 I don't know, a Kaimer or something. 0:05:11.960 --> 0:05:14.240 Oh, I know the Witcher from the game, the third 0:05:14.279 --> 0:05:17.520 game specifically. But yeah, so this thing does look really cool. 0:05:17.640 --> 0:05:19.279 I'll have to look this one up this year. But 0:05:19.320 --> 0:05:22.800 it's like sexy wrought iron brazier for your home. 0:05:23.279 --> 0:05:26.440 Yeah, yeah, it's cool. Yeah, I legitimately love it. 0:05:26.880 --> 0:05:30.000 So I think Fireplace for your Home and its many 0:05:30.000 --> 0:05:36.960 derivatives are interesting cultural artifacts because on one hand, they're 0:05:37.040 --> 0:05:40.680 just like a genuine holiday fixture in millions of homes. 0:05:40.720 --> 0:05:43.880 I couldn't find any reliable sources on viewcount because Netflix 0:05:43.880 --> 0:05:45.719 doesn't release that kind of stuff as far as I know. 0:05:46.440 --> 0:05:49.479 But in an interview with The Independent in twenty eighteen, 0:05:49.600 --> 0:05:53.039 the director of Fireplace for Your Home, George Ford, I'll 0:05:53.040 --> 0:05:55.560 come back to the in a minute, estimated that it 0:05:55.560 --> 0:05:58.279 had been it had been watched more than seventy million 0:05:58.360 --> 0:06:01.240 times in twenty eighteen. Idea if he's right about that, 0:06:01.279 --> 0:06:04.720 But how am I gonna argue with him? But at 0:06:04.760 --> 0:06:07.560 the same time, I think it's funny that it's only 0:06:07.600 --> 0:06:10.600 people are putting this on to be cozy and feel 0:06:10.600 --> 0:06:14.000 good at Christmas time, and yet this movie is also 0:06:14.120 --> 0:06:17.880 a source of ironic amusement, Like when you bring it up, 0:06:18.000 --> 0:06:21.200 people kind of there's something funny, like they find something 0:06:21.240 --> 0:06:24.360 kind of goofy about the idea of a cozy fire 0:06:24.440 --> 0:06:28.200 happening inside their television. And if you look at reviews, 0:06:28.520 --> 0:06:31.279 most of the reviews for this thing are jokes. They're 0:06:31.279 --> 0:06:34.880 things like, you know, zero stars, nearly burned down my house. 0:06:35.160 --> 0:06:39.279 It's like the joke is with the incongruity of the 0:06:39.279 --> 0:06:40.839 fact that this is not a real fire. 0:06:41.480 --> 0:06:43.919 It's not it won't it won't put out heat. And 0:06:43.960 --> 0:06:46.160 if it is putting out heat, there's probably something wrong 0:06:46.200 --> 0:06:48.360 with your television set. I mean, it'll put out a 0:06:48.360 --> 0:06:50.720 little heat, right, Like you shouldn't be put putting out 0:06:50.720 --> 0:06:52.240 a lot of heat. You shouldn't actually be able to 0:06:52.279 --> 0:06:53.360 warm your buns by it. 0:06:53.600 --> 0:06:56.720 You hope it's not putting out a lot. This is 0:06:56.760 --> 0:06:58.600 actually this is kind of a tangent, but I got 0:06:58.600 --> 0:07:02.680 interested thinking about what makes the difference between lovable holiday 0:07:02.800 --> 0:07:08.280 kitch like fireplace for your home and a divisive experimental 0:07:08.400 --> 0:07:12.080 art film like Andy Warhol's Empire, which if you're not 0:07:12.080 --> 0:07:14.720 familiar with Empire, this is worth looking up. It's an 0:07:14.800 --> 0:07:19.040 eight hour static shot of the illuminated upper floors of 0:07:19.120 --> 0:07:21.920 the Empire State Building. I think it was actually filmed 0:07:21.920 --> 0:07:24.040 over the course of roughly like six hours, and then 0:07:24.040 --> 0:07:26.200 it's supposed to be played back at slow motion, so 0:07:26.320 --> 0:07:28.800 the film takes like eight hours to watch. It was 0:07:28.800 --> 0:07:31.280 filmed over the course of one night in July nineteen 0:07:31.360 --> 0:07:35.560 sixty four, and you're just watching the buildings, like the 0:07:35.560 --> 0:07:38.040 sun sets and the floodlights come on, and you just 0:07:38.120 --> 0:07:40.840 watch the building through the night, and occasionally there'll be 0:07:41.160 --> 0:07:43.240 you know, a plane going by or flashes of light 0:07:43.360 --> 0:07:47.840 or something like that, but otherwise it's just a static shot. Obviously, 0:07:48.080 --> 0:07:51.720 the movie Empire is more likely to be regarded as 0:07:51.760 --> 0:07:54.680 either an important work of art with something interesting to 0:07:54.720 --> 0:07:59.160 illustrate about passage of time or the aesthetics of film, or, 0:07:59.280 --> 0:08:01.640 on the other hand, to be seen as a pretentious, 0:08:01.760 --> 0:08:06.720 self infatuated, artistic boondoggle. Fireplace for your home does not 0:08:06.800 --> 0:08:10.760 really invite either of these types of appraisal. It's just 0:08:10.920 --> 0:08:14.440 you know, cozy holiday kitsch. However, I would say that 0:08:15.160 --> 0:08:17.800 an hour long shot of a burning fireplace and an 0:08:17.800 --> 0:08:20.160 eight hour shot of the floodlights on top of a 0:08:20.160 --> 0:08:23.880 skyscraper have a lot of similarities. Both are what you 0:08:23.960 --> 0:08:29.080 might call slow or atmospheric films without plot, characters, or dialogue, 0:08:29.440 --> 0:08:34.040 primarily interested in just a purely esthetic experience, maybe causing 0:08:34.320 --> 0:08:36.800 maybe something about causing the viewer to have time to 0:08:36.920 --> 0:08:40.640 relax and reflect without something directly taking up their attention 0:08:40.800 --> 0:08:45.400 to too aggressively. And both of them, in terms of 0:08:45.480 --> 0:08:48.720 visual display, are based on the interplay of light and shadow. 0:08:49.080 --> 0:08:52.079 I read somebody described the glowing crown of the building 0:08:52.160 --> 0:08:55.959 featured in Empire as a chandelier in the sky, and 0:08:56.200 --> 0:08:59.160 based on an interview I was looking at, it's clear 0:08:59.280 --> 0:09:01.560 that fireplace for your home it took a lot of 0:09:01.640 --> 0:09:03.960 care to try to get the right interplay of like 0:09:04.080 --> 0:09:06.280 lights and colors in the fire and how they would 0:09:06.320 --> 0:09:09.720 be picked up by the camera and the contrast of 0:09:09.760 --> 0:09:12.320 that with the shadows in the room around. And so 0:09:12.400 --> 0:09:14.120 I was thinking about if I had to like single 0:09:14.160 --> 0:09:16.559 out a major difference, like what would make the difference 0:09:16.600 --> 0:09:20.800 between the kinds of feelings people have about them? Apart 0:09:20.800 --> 0:09:23.880 from like the length difference, I think a big thing 0:09:24.000 --> 0:09:27.640 is that there is an understanding of a different expectation 0:09:27.880 --> 0:09:30.560 put on the viewer. Like if you are asked to 0:09:30.600 --> 0:09:35.160 watch Andy Warhol's Empire, people probably think that they're supposed 0:09:35.200 --> 0:09:38.120 to like sit silently in an art house theater and 0:09:38.400 --> 0:09:40.600 look at the screen the whole run time and think 0:09:40.640 --> 0:09:44.480 deep thoughts, whereas fireplace for your home makes no such demands. 0:09:44.520 --> 0:09:46.840 You probably just put it on in the background while 0:09:46.840 --> 0:09:49.560 you're having coffee or while you're wrapping presents or something. 0:09:50.000 --> 0:09:52.480 Yeah, it's interesting to think about the different ways we're 0:09:52.679 --> 0:09:58.040 supposed to or do, interact with various media. Like I 0:09:58.080 --> 0:10:01.839 was thinking about this recently. I went to performance that 0:10:02.960 --> 0:10:05.440 was maybe a little dry for my taste, and in 0:10:05.480 --> 0:10:07.280 the same way you know, you sometimes say, well, this 0:10:07.480 --> 0:10:09.760 meeting could have been an email, I kind of felt 0:10:09.760 --> 0:10:12.679 like this performance could have been an art installation. You know, 0:10:13.040 --> 0:10:16.400 something where I walk through it, I spend as much 0:10:16.480 --> 0:10:18.440 time with it as I want and sort of like 0:10:18.840 --> 0:10:22.200 gain what I want from looking at it walking through 0:10:22.240 --> 0:10:24.600 it and so forth. You know, I think we've all 0:10:24.600 --> 0:10:27.439 been to. This also sometimes breaks down into actual video 0:10:27.600 --> 0:10:31.200 pieces right where you'll see like short short films or 0:10:31.200 --> 0:10:34.240 even longer pieces, and yeah, you could watch them all 0:10:34.280 --> 0:10:36.800 in their entirety, or you could sort of pass through 0:10:37.320 --> 0:10:40.040 and get a general sense of it. And then on 0:10:40.080 --> 0:10:41.840 the other end of the spectrum, like you look at 0:10:41.880 --> 0:10:44.839 the way people often treat their favorite television shows, be 0:10:44.920 --> 0:10:46.920 it to you know, something's often something they have a 0:10:46.920 --> 0:10:49.839 lot of nostalgia for. You hear people talking about, say 0:10:50.000 --> 0:10:53.120 The Office or a Seinfeld or something like that, and 0:10:53.160 --> 0:10:54.480 they talk about, well, you know, I just like to 0:10:54.480 --> 0:10:56.120 put it on in the background while I'm working. It 0:10:56.160 --> 0:10:58.480 just put it on while I'm working or you know, 0:10:58.559 --> 0:11:01.160 doing things around the house, and you know, it's you're 0:11:01.240 --> 0:11:07.320 kind of treating the office like one of these virtual fireplaces, 0:11:07.360 --> 0:11:12.320 something that is just generating a feeling in the background, 0:11:13.200 --> 0:11:15.800 some stimuli in the background that you're not one hundred 0:11:15.800 --> 0:11:18.080 percent focused on. In fact, I would say if you 0:11:18.120 --> 0:11:20.719 are one hundred percent focused on one of these fireplace 0:11:20.960 --> 0:11:26.320 videos that may be a warning sign, you know, it's like, 0:11:26.360 --> 0:11:29.880 that's why not. I mean, however, you engage with your art, 0:11:30.080 --> 0:11:30.720 that's fine. 0:11:31.240 --> 0:11:33.240 Or it could be you're just trying to find the 0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:37.199 warholiness of it. I mean, on the I have read 0:11:38.360 --> 0:11:41.840 strange kinds of interpretations of Fireplace for your Home. Was 0:11:41.880 --> 0:11:46.280 reading something that referred to an almost Lynchian meditation on 0:11:46.320 --> 0:11:51.040 the synthetic and alienated faces of holiday cheer that you 0:11:51.160 --> 0:11:53.640 could see in Fireplace for your Home if you're looking 0:11:53.679 --> 0:11:55.320 for it. But I was thinking about it in the 0:11:55.320 --> 0:11:58.920 opposite direction. With the contrast with the Andy Warhol movie. 0:11:59.640 --> 0:12:01.920 You could be like wrapping Christmas presents and you could 0:12:01.960 --> 0:12:04.120 put Empire on in the background. It might not feel 0:12:04.160 --> 0:12:07.240 any less appropriate. The other day, I just watched part 0:12:07.240 --> 0:12:10.480 of Empire like you can find it online, and however 0:12:11.200 --> 0:12:14.520 orthogonal this is to Warhol's intensions, it actually does feel 0:12:14.559 --> 0:12:17.920 quite seasonally festive. There's something about like the Art Deco 0:12:18.000 --> 0:12:20.720 design of the Empire state building and the floodlights against 0:12:20.720 --> 0:12:24.120 the dark knight skies, extremely cozy and felt like Christmas time. 0:12:25.080 --> 0:12:28.959 Yeah, there have been a number of interesting related I 0:12:29.000 --> 0:12:35.080 guess ambient audio visual experiences. Netflix hosted multiple moving art 0:12:35.640 --> 0:12:39.240 works by Lewis Schwarzburg. This is the guy who also 0:12:39.240 --> 0:12:42.400 directed the twenty nineteen film Fantastic Fun Guy, which is 0:12:43.000 --> 0:12:47.800 more traditional in its structure, But the moving art show, 0:12:48.080 --> 0:12:50.240 I guess, you know, there were like one hour long each, 0:12:50.280 --> 0:12:53.559 maybe less. You know, it's just pleasing music, a lot 0:12:53.559 --> 0:12:57.360 of cool ambient nature footage, and it's like great stuff. 0:12:57.400 --> 0:12:59.000 It was great stuff to take a nap to, you know, 0:13:00.120 --> 0:13:02.920 but still have something visual going on in the room 0:13:03.000 --> 0:13:07.080 as well. Disney has also got in on this with 0:13:07.160 --> 0:13:11.320 some great long ambient Star Wars themed av presentations, like 0:13:11.360 --> 0:13:14.320 it'll be a landscape of Hath or something like that. 0:13:15.800 --> 0:13:18.480 So it seems like, you know, enough people were doing 0:13:18.559 --> 0:13:20.160 this kind of thing they realized, well, let's let's put 0:13:20.200 --> 0:13:22.440 that out there. I mean, we also have sort of 0:13:22.440 --> 0:13:25.640 screen savory type things that pop up on Apple televisions, 0:13:25.720 --> 0:13:29.360 right and various apps and so forth, where instead of 0:13:29.360 --> 0:13:31.480 just looking at an ad, they're going to show you 0:13:31.480 --> 0:13:33.240 a city scape or something like that. 0:13:35.280 --> 0:13:37.120 I didn't know about the Star Wars thing. I don't 0:13:37.120 --> 0:13:37.560 look that up. 0:13:37.920 --> 0:13:39.439 Ya. They're pretty good. 0:13:39.600 --> 0:13:41.480 Wampa attacks to study relax to. 0:13:42.280 --> 0:13:46.199 Yeah, well yeah, nothing really happens, maybe a spaceship flies over, 0:13:46.240 --> 0:13:48.160 you know. Yeah, they keep it chill, they keep it ambient. 0:13:48.679 --> 0:13:51.600 And it's an interesting I mean, because the idea of 0:13:51.640 --> 0:13:55.000 the TV being on NonStop, as being this flood of 0:13:55.240 --> 0:13:59.040 ideas into your home and into your life like this 0:13:59.080 --> 0:14:01.120 is nothing new. We've been doing this, We've been using 0:14:01.120 --> 0:14:05.280 our televisions like this since we've had televisions, and it's 0:14:05.440 --> 0:14:09.200 it's really almost kind of a refined idea to think, well, 0:14:09.240 --> 0:14:12.200 you know, let's let them have an hour two hour 0:14:12.280 --> 0:14:16.360 blocks of just you know, very ambient, chill audio visual 0:14:16.400 --> 0:14:19.680 stimuli instead of just NonStop ads and so forth. 0:14:19.680 --> 0:14:22.240 I don't know, well, yeah, yeah, and I mean, and 0:14:22.280 --> 0:14:24.160 part of the reason I brought this up is to 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:27.560 think about the similarities and differences in the way people 0:14:27.600 --> 0:14:30.440 are now seeming to use a TV like people would 0:14:30.440 --> 0:14:33.520 once or in many cases still do use a fireplace 0:14:33.560 --> 0:14:36.880 as a primarily you know, not primarily to heat the 0:14:36.960 --> 0:14:40.040 house but because they probably have another heating system as well, 0:14:40.320 --> 0:14:43.120 but as an esthetic experience. It's something that supplies a 0:14:43.200 --> 0:14:46.320 kind of mood or ambience to the room that makes 0:14:46.360 --> 0:14:48.600 you feel a way you want to feel, or helps 0:14:48.600 --> 0:14:52.600 you focus your attention in a way that you want to. Yeah, anyway, 0:14:52.640 --> 0:14:54.560 I just wanted to mention a couple of funny things 0:14:54.880 --> 0:14:56.560 that I found out about because I read a couple 0:14:56.560 --> 0:14:59.400 of interviews with the creator of Fireplace for Your Home 0:14:59.720 --> 0:15:03.320 and American director named George Ford, who lives in Washington State, 0:15:03.360 --> 0:15:06.480 whose primary job is, or at least was at the 0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:10.680 time of these interviews, running a pet supply company. But 0:15:10.800 --> 0:15:13.480 he also directed a number of these like static shot 0:15:13.600 --> 0:15:16.680 genre films, ones like a mountain stream flowing. There's another 0:15:17.120 --> 0:15:19.840 thing of like fish bopping around in a saltwater aquarium. 0:15:20.440 --> 0:15:24.720 But apparently this started with him making these cat entertainment DVDs, 0:15:24.840 --> 0:15:27.000 the goal of which is to like drive your cat 0:15:27.040 --> 0:15:29.800 insane with images of mice running all over the place. 0:15:30.520 --> 0:15:34.640 Oh yeah, Yeah. There are various YouTube accounts that specialize 0:15:34.640 --> 0:15:36.000 in this sort of thing as well, and some of 0:15:36.040 --> 0:15:38.400 those can be quite cheerful, you know, until the YouTube 0:15:38.400 --> 0:15:39.040 ads cut in. 0:15:39.640 --> 0:15:41.760 Yeah, I guess YouTube must have really cut into the 0:15:41.800 --> 0:15:45.160 DVD market for these things. He used to like twenty 0:15:45.240 --> 0:15:47.400 years ago, you'd pick up in Pet Smart or something. 0:15:48.400 --> 0:15:50.720 But anyway, these interviews, one of them was with The 0:15:50.760 --> 0:15:53.960 Independent in twenty eighteen and others with CBC in twenty 0:15:54.040 --> 0:15:57.440 twenty two. A few takeaways that seemed interesting to me. 0:15:57.560 --> 0:16:01.280 This guy was inspired in part by pre existing hearth 0:16:01.320 --> 0:16:04.120 and fireplace films, So fireplace for your home not the 0:16:04.120 --> 0:16:06.760 first thing of its type. One example is a film 0:16:06.800 --> 0:16:09.640 that used to run on Christmas even Christmas on the 0:16:09.920 --> 0:16:13.480 New York TV market. It was on a station called WPIX, 0:16:13.560 --> 0:16:16.880 Channel eleven. This started in the nineteen sixties, and it 0:16:16.920 --> 0:16:18.800 was this thing that was like two to four hours long, 0:16:19.160 --> 0:16:22.400 depending on the instance, that would play a video loop 0:16:22.440 --> 0:16:25.560 showing a log burning in a fireplace with Christmas music 0:16:25.640 --> 0:16:29.480 playing over the top. And I read in turn that 0:16:29.680 --> 0:16:31.760 this thing was the idea of somebody who worked at 0:16:31.760 --> 0:16:34.520 this TV station who was inspired by like a Coca 0:16:34.560 --> 0:16:39.000 Cola commercial that he saw. But another thing from these 0:16:39.040 --> 0:16:41.720 interviews is that Ford talked about how his kids would 0:16:41.800 --> 0:16:44.479 keep begging him to build a fire around the holidays 0:16:44.480 --> 0:16:46.440 because you know, yeah, I remember when I was a kid, 0:16:46.520 --> 0:16:48.480 I wanted a fire in the fireplace. That was fun. 0:16:49.080 --> 0:16:51.800 And it occurred to him that it would be easier too, 0:16:52.000 --> 0:16:55.400 in his words, quote, just place a television inside our 0:16:55.480 --> 0:16:59.280 fireplace hearth easier than to keep making a real fire, 0:17:00.200 --> 0:17:03.480 So he like pitched this to Netflix multiple times. They 0:17:03.520 --> 0:17:06.280 initially ignored him or laughed him off, but eventually he 0:17:06.320 --> 0:17:10.000 got some traction and he claims again can't verify this, 0:17:10.119 --> 0:17:12.719 but according to the director, the First Fireplace for Your 0:17:12.760 --> 0:17:15.600 Home film took him two years to make and cost 0:17:15.680 --> 0:17:19.159 almost thirty five thousand dollars to produce. This would not 0:17:19.200 --> 0:17:22.159 be Netflix money, by the way. It was actually that 0:17:22.240 --> 0:17:24.800 he made these films independently and then I think sold 0:17:24.840 --> 0:17:28.199 the distro rights to Netflix later on, Like, how on 0:17:28.240 --> 0:17:31.640 earth could it actually be that difficult. Well, again, can't 0:17:31.720 --> 0:17:34.280 verify the figures are true, but the explanation kind of 0:17:34.280 --> 0:17:37.720 makes sense to me. Speaking to The Independent, he said, quote, 0:17:37.840 --> 0:17:41.920 we battled timing issues, color audio and general high resolution 0:17:42.040 --> 0:17:45.000 problems along the way. Special cameras have to be used 0:17:45.000 --> 0:17:48.720 around flames and only certain color temperatures work. That's why 0:17:48.760 --> 0:17:51.720 you just don't see an open flame much in movies. 0:17:52.520 --> 0:17:54.919 And I was like, oh, that is interesting. You know, 0:17:54.960 --> 0:17:57.320 I think for a cozy fire on a TV screen, 0:17:57.920 --> 0:18:00.399 we kind of have some criteria that we might not 0:18:00.480 --> 0:18:02.239 even be aware of. But we'd like to see the 0:18:02.359 --> 0:18:05.720 warmer colors of the fire, don't We want some red, orange, 0:18:05.760 --> 0:18:09.399 and yellow. But a roaring fire on camera, especially not 0:18:09.520 --> 0:18:11.360 the right kind of camera and not the right kind 0:18:11.359 --> 0:18:14.040 of shot just doesn't always look like that. I can 0:18:14.080 --> 0:18:16.680 think of a lot of old movies and video where 0:18:17.280 --> 0:18:21.000 camera where a camera catching a fireplace looks either just 0:18:21.040 --> 0:18:24.360 like a white glare or it's like invisible somehow. 0:18:24.800 --> 0:18:27.040 Mm. That's a good point. Now, I'm gonna have to 0:18:27.040 --> 0:18:30.240 be extra judging when I watch films with fireplaces in them. 0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:33.200 Apart from the technical concerns, this gets back to the 0:18:33.240 --> 0:18:36.840 things about like what elements of the simulation are important 0:18:36.880 --> 0:18:39.800 to capture. They also went through a lot of tries 0:18:39.840 --> 0:18:42.479 actually getting the logs to burn right in like an 0:18:42.600 --> 0:18:45.600 esthetically pleasing way. They wanted the right sounds of like 0:18:45.640 --> 0:18:49.960 a crackle and snap and a visually symmetrical flame, and 0:18:50.119 --> 0:18:51.760 also to make the fire in such a way that 0:18:51.800 --> 0:18:53.920 it requires no intervention so you don't have to keep 0:18:53.960 --> 0:18:57.479 like poking it reaching in front of the camera. And 0:18:57.560 --> 0:19:00.960 another hilarious thing that I did not know, so you 0:19:00.960 --> 0:19:04.679 you filled me in about the Witcher themed fireplace, but 0:19:04.720 --> 0:19:08.920 according to this guy, Netflix did a fireplace tie in 0:19:09.000 --> 0:19:13.080 with some dystopian movie they made called Bright and they 0:19:13.119 --> 0:19:15.600 summarized this. I haven't seen this movie, but it's like 0:19:16.000 --> 0:19:19.240 it's got like elves and orcs in what is otherwise 0:19:19.359 --> 0:19:22.840 just a buddy cop movie. And they they called this 0:19:22.960 --> 0:19:24.359 burn barrel for your Home. 0:19:24.960 --> 0:19:29.359 I have not seen this one, but I mean, in general, 0:19:29.440 --> 0:19:33.000 I'm all for this. Let's have let's have more of these. 0:19:33.800 --> 0:19:37.640 I'm just looking around. It's possible that they just unleashed 0:19:37.640 --> 0:19:42.080 one for Squid Game. If so, excellent, keep it, keep 0:19:42.119 --> 0:19:44.840 it going. I need all Netflix series. I'm really kind 0:19:44.840 --> 0:19:47.440 of pissed we didn't get one for Gama Do Toro's 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:51.280 Cabinet of Curiosities. We really needed like a Linel Lasseter 0:19:53.720 --> 0:19:55.959 themed a fireplace that would have been ideal. 0:19:56.400 --> 0:19:59.880 Oh yeah, like a fireplace that that talks extensively about 0:20:00.160 --> 0:20:01.400 kind of drink it's making you. 0:20:01.920 --> 0:20:03.760 Yeah, I don't know, I mean, but seriously, can you 0:20:03.800 --> 0:20:08.160 imagine if Panels Coos Motos did a fireplace hour long 0:20:08.240 --> 0:20:11.520 video for Netflix that would be amazing. Imagine how glorious 0:20:11.560 --> 0:20:12.560 that fireplace would. 0:20:12.359 --> 0:20:25.880 Look some kind of creature slowly melting. Oh but one 0:20:25.960 --> 0:20:29.320 last thing about the fireplace director speaking to the CBC, 0:20:29.440 --> 0:20:31.480 they ask him, why do we love to stare at 0:20:31.520 --> 0:20:33.960 a fireplace, even if it's not putting out heat like 0:20:34.000 --> 0:20:36.480 a real woman would. He mentioned a number of things, 0:20:36.520 --> 0:20:39.760 but one that he mentions this might seem kind of obvious, 0:20:39.800 --> 0:20:41.920 but he says, you know, a fireplace looks like safety, 0:20:42.800 --> 0:20:46.560 and I think that's true. Something feels very like safe, 0:20:46.800 --> 0:20:49.840 enclosed and contained about it, which is funny because actually, 0:20:49.920 --> 0:20:52.040 like putting a fire inside your house is one of 0:20:52.040 --> 0:20:53.640 the more dangerous things you might do. 0:20:54.520 --> 0:20:56.840 Yeah, yeah, but like this is the place to do it, 0:20:56.880 --> 0:20:59.400 and it's it's the thing that we have, and it's 0:20:59.400 --> 0:21:01.199 the thing we have a very long history with, you know, 0:21:01.280 --> 0:21:04.000 our you know, going back through times, will be discussing 0:21:04.040 --> 0:21:06.679 like this is what the house was built around. It 0:21:06.760 --> 0:21:09.280 is the heart of the house. It is the center 0:21:09.400 --> 0:21:11.280 of the house, and it is therefore the center of 0:21:11.320 --> 0:21:11.960 your lives. 0:21:12.520 --> 0:21:14.520 That's right. So I don't know if I meant to 0:21:14.600 --> 0:21:16.800 end up talking that long about fireplace for your home. 0:21:16.880 --> 0:21:20.080 Apologies it was a bit much, But I don't know. 0:21:20.119 --> 0:21:21.800 I think it does raise some issues that I might 0:21:21.880 --> 0:21:24.480 want to keep returning to as we think more about 0:21:24.480 --> 0:21:26.760 the fireplace and what it means to us over the 0:21:26.800 --> 0:21:29.639 course of the next couple episodes. But one thing I 0:21:29.680 --> 0:21:33.960 did want to cover briefly, is the prehistory of human 0:21:34.040 --> 0:21:36.679 control of fire. Now, we've gone into this in depth 0:21:36.760 --> 0:21:39.439 and other episodes, so we're not going to rehash all 0:21:39.480 --> 0:21:41.520 that material in the same level of depth here. I 0:21:41.560 --> 0:21:44.160 just wanted to do a sort of quick overview of 0:21:44.359 --> 0:21:47.320 some things we've talked about. A paper we've referenced on 0:21:47.359 --> 0:21:50.280 the show before that is highly cited on this subject 0:21:50.680 --> 0:21:54.800 is from twenty sixteen published in Philosophical Transactions of the 0:21:54.880 --> 0:21:58.760 Royal Society B by JAJ Gawlett called the Discovery of 0:21:58.800 --> 0:22:03.840 Fire by Humans Long and Convoluted Process. Now, this paper 0:22:04.040 --> 0:22:09.040 posits that human control of fire in prehistory probably constituted 0:22:09.160 --> 0:22:13.680 three general phases, and the first stage would be humans 0:22:13.720 --> 0:22:16.800 engaging in something we actually see in other animals, which 0:22:16.840 --> 0:22:21.639 is fire. Following this would be opportunistically taking advantage of 0:22:21.760 --> 0:22:27.000 natural fires caused most often by lightning strikes, lightning striking brush, 0:22:27.200 --> 0:22:30.960 but less often by like weird ignition sources like volcanic eruptions, 0:22:31.680 --> 0:22:34.000 but whatever the cause of the fire. This phase would 0:22:34.000 --> 0:22:37.280 be humans notice a natural fire is occurring and then 0:22:37.359 --> 0:22:41.919 swoop in to take advantage of it in various ways, 0:22:42.000 --> 0:22:44.959 like to capture prey that is flushed out of hiding, 0:22:45.359 --> 0:22:48.480 or to scavenge and eat a prey that has been 0:22:48.560 --> 0:22:50.840 killed and maybe even cooked by the fire in some 0:22:50.920 --> 0:22:54.679 way like oh, it's nicely roasted now, or to in 0:22:55.000 --> 0:22:58.600 various other ways take advantage of natural resources revealed or 0:22:58.640 --> 0:23:03.399 transformed by a burn. And then after the wildfire foraging stage, 0:23:03.400 --> 0:23:06.760 you've got the second and third phases, which postulate control 0:23:06.880 --> 0:23:09.560 of the fire within the living space. So the second 0:23:09.560 --> 0:23:13.920 phase is domestic fire, primarily used for cooking and safety, 0:23:14.200 --> 0:23:16.560 and then the third phase is what you might call 0:23:16.640 --> 0:23:21.439 industrial fire, the transformation of used for the transformation of 0:23:21.520 --> 0:23:26.159 resources and technology, like the production of baked pottery, and 0:23:26.240 --> 0:23:29.200 so going into the second and third phases, you see 0:23:29.200 --> 0:23:34.399 this sporadic and opportunistic relationship to rare natural fires transform 0:23:34.520 --> 0:23:38.480 into the capture and maintenance of fire first like feeding 0:23:38.520 --> 0:23:41.320 a fire continuous fuel to keep it burning after you've 0:23:41.840 --> 0:23:44.840 caught it from a natural source. And then eventually humans 0:23:44.840 --> 0:23:47.679 would learn to strike fire from nothing with implements like 0:23:47.760 --> 0:23:51.800 flintstone's and tender Now, what's the general timeline for these 0:23:51.880 --> 0:23:56.000 early stages of fire control. Well, it's messy and it's 0:23:56.000 --> 0:24:00.679 still debated. The oldest evidence that anybody seriously proposes for 0:24:00.880 --> 0:24:04.399 human control of fire goes back to our hominin relatives 0:24:04.520 --> 0:24:06.960 roughly one to two million years ago, so at the 0:24:07.000 --> 0:24:10.159 farthest it might go back like two million years but 0:24:10.400 --> 0:24:13.639 this evidence is ambiguous. So you can have things like 0:24:14.160 --> 0:24:17.320 charred or baked remains buried at a site that was 0:24:17.359 --> 0:24:21.720 occupied by hominins around the same time between one and 0:24:21.760 --> 0:24:24.720 two million years ago. But with these cases it's not 0:24:24.920 --> 0:24:27.840 always clear if this is the result of deliberate fire 0:24:27.880 --> 0:24:32.600 control or of natural burning and like scavenging of burned materials. 0:24:33.000 --> 0:24:35.600 Gallon in the paper mentions a couple of sites of 0:24:35.640 --> 0:24:39.880 this kind in Kenya containing like burned sediments, stone tools 0:24:39.920 --> 0:24:42.560 that appear to have been altered by heat, and a 0:24:42.560 --> 0:24:45.600 couple of large hunks of baked clay, but again it's 0:24:45.640 --> 0:24:49.560 not clear if these are from natural fires or controlled burning. 0:24:51.240 --> 0:24:55.119 A lot of the archaeological investigation for the emergence of 0:24:55.160 --> 0:24:58.000 fire control has focused on looking for what are called 0:24:58.200 --> 0:25:00.720 hearths in the literature. That's going to be a little 0:25:00.720 --> 0:25:03.960 bit different than the way we're using hearth, primarily in 0:25:04.040 --> 0:25:08.800 these episodes, because this would not necessarily refer to indoor fireplaces, 0:25:08.840 --> 0:25:11.919 but could refer to any dedicated place for burning. So, 0:25:11.960 --> 0:25:15.560 in like the archaeological papers, a hearth just means the 0:25:15.600 --> 0:25:19.080 remains of a place that was used for a purposeful fire. 0:25:19.840 --> 0:25:23.440 And there is pretty unambiguous evidence for hearths starting several 0:25:23.560 --> 0:25:27.200 hundred thousand years ago. There are more traces of human 0:25:27.240 --> 0:25:30.840 associated burning beginning around one million years ago, and then 0:25:30.880 --> 0:25:34.840 the hearths really start popping up in Africa, Asia, Europe, 0:25:34.840 --> 0:25:37.240 in the Middle East around four hundred thousand years ago 0:25:37.320 --> 0:25:38.720 when you start seeing a lot of them. 0:25:39.240 --> 0:25:42.600 Yeah, just based on materials I've been looking at. The 0:25:42.680 --> 0:25:45.560 exact usage of the term hearth is going to depend 0:25:45.600 --> 0:25:50.040 on a large part on exactly what the researchers and 0:25:50.160 --> 0:25:52.240 or the paper or the book is dealing with, Like 0:25:52.280 --> 0:25:55.960 are we dealing with an age in which people are 0:25:55.960 --> 0:26:00.800 living in homes or some other situation, and then the 0:26:00.800 --> 0:26:02.600 exact nature of the homes varies as well. 0:26:02.840 --> 0:26:05.439 Yeah. Yeah, hearth in the main way we're using it 0:26:05.480 --> 0:26:07.200 in this series is going to refer to a piece 0:26:07.200 --> 0:26:10.720 of infrastructure in a home, like a constructed enclosure made 0:26:10.760 --> 0:26:14.000 of fireproof materials that contains the fireplace. 0:26:14.600 --> 0:26:16.320 Right, But there may be a time or two where 0:26:16.320 --> 0:26:18.000 we use the term hearth and you might think, are 0:26:18.000 --> 0:26:20.760 they talking about a home. Well, in a few cases 0:26:20.800 --> 0:26:22.760 we might be referring to some material that's dealing with 0:26:22.920 --> 0:26:26.320 some other situation. But yeah, for the most part, we're 0:26:26.320 --> 0:26:29.960 dealing with hearthstones and have gotten something along the lines 0:26:29.960 --> 0:26:30.760 of a fireplace. 0:26:31.240 --> 0:26:34.400 Now, there are tons of ways that gaining control over 0:26:34.480 --> 0:26:38.680 fire transformed humankind. Of course, one thing is it would 0:26:38.720 --> 0:26:42.760 have expanded our geographic range, making it easier to migrate 0:26:42.800 --> 0:26:47.240 into colder climates and higher altitudes. It allowed us to 0:26:48.080 --> 0:26:53.480 expand our technological regime through the transformation of natural resources. Again, 0:26:53.520 --> 0:26:56.560 a very good example is pottery fired pottery, but also 0:26:57.000 --> 0:27:00.120 things you might not think of as readily, like adhesives 0:27:00.160 --> 0:27:03.920 for hafting, the famous birch bark tar that we talked 0:27:03.960 --> 0:27:07.000 about in some episodes in the past, and other things 0:27:07.040 --> 0:27:10.680 you can make like various glues out of natural substances 0:27:10.720 --> 0:27:13.760 that involves some element of heating. Also the heating of 0:27:13.800 --> 0:27:19.840 stones for improved napping. Some silicon based stones they nap better. 0:27:19.880 --> 0:27:22.040 You know, they flake off into the kinds of sharp 0:27:22.160 --> 0:27:25.280 edges that you're looking for with a napping exercise if 0:27:25.320 --> 0:27:28.120 you heat them the right way. But a big thing, 0:27:28.160 --> 0:27:31.040 of course, is the importance of cooking. The importance of 0:27:31.080 --> 0:27:34.720 fire for cooking really hard to overstate. Now, there is 0:27:34.760 --> 0:27:38.000 a real scholarly debate about the extent to which cooking 0:27:38.119 --> 0:27:41.440 actually could have transformed the human body. This is known 0:27:41.480 --> 0:27:44.960 as the cooking hypothesis. The basic idea is that the 0:27:45.000 --> 0:27:49.560 ability to cook otherwise hard to digest foods actually steered 0:27:49.640 --> 0:27:53.760 hominine evolution, changing not just our culture but our bodies, 0:27:53.800 --> 0:27:57.119 allowing us to grow more powerful brains by devoting less 0:27:57.240 --> 0:28:00.560 energy to a hardy gut. Though I should that the 0:28:00.560 --> 0:28:04.000 cooking hypothesis is not proven. There are arguments against it, 0:28:04.119 --> 0:28:06.360 mainly having to do with like the timing that would 0:28:06.400 --> 0:28:08.600 be required and a lack of evidence for control of 0:28:08.640 --> 0:28:12.560 fire at the required times. So we don't know about 0:28:12.600 --> 0:28:16.439 the cooking hypothesis hypothesis in terms of human evolution. But 0:28:16.880 --> 0:28:19.959 what cannot be doubted is that the invention of cooking 0:28:20.280 --> 0:28:24.240 massively expanded the base nutrition yield of food we acquired. 0:28:24.280 --> 0:28:26.440 So it just made it possible to get a lot 0:28:26.480 --> 0:28:28.880 more nutrition out of your food. And it also made 0:28:28.880 --> 0:28:32.600 food safer by killing food born pathogens and neutralizing some 0:28:32.760 --> 0:28:36.879 plant toxins. So it just unlocked a gigantic level up 0:28:36.920 --> 0:28:37.480 in nutrition. 0:28:38.240 --> 0:28:41.520 Yeah, there's like a real sort. It's often described as 0:28:41.600 --> 0:28:45.040 kind of an externalization of digestion, like a lot of 0:28:45.040 --> 0:28:50.440 the chemistry of digestion and potential chemistry of digestion handled 0:28:50.440 --> 0:28:54.120 outside the body, taking the strain off of the body, 0:28:54.200 --> 0:28:58.200 making things that we could need otherwise edible or more 0:28:58.280 --> 0:29:02.120 nutritious and so forth. Oh yeah, and then there's you know, 0:29:02.240 --> 0:29:06.120 additional areas you can get into, like food preservation and 0:29:06.160 --> 0:29:06.680 so forth. 0:29:06.920 --> 0:29:10.440 Yeah. Also, with control of fire, you have protection against 0:29:10.520 --> 0:29:13.600 wild predators which tend to be afraid of fire and 0:29:13.680 --> 0:29:16.719 are easier to drive away with it. And then finally 0:29:16.720 --> 0:29:20.160 you've got provision of light in the darkness. And the 0:29:20.200 --> 0:29:24.440 way in which fire provides light in the darkness I 0:29:24.480 --> 0:29:28.880 think is interesting because of how it is different from 0:29:29.000 --> 0:29:33.120 the light provided by the sun, and to say nothing 0:29:33.200 --> 0:29:35.160 of the way that it's different from the kind of 0:29:35.240 --> 0:29:37.880 light provided by electrical light sources that we have today. 0:29:38.200 --> 0:29:40.560 That's something I want to come back to in part two, 0:29:40.800 --> 0:29:47.120 to think about the particular light regime of fire based societies. 0:29:47.840 --> 0:29:50.000 Yeah. Yeah, this is something I was thinking a lot 0:29:50.160 --> 0:29:53.640 about recently. When I visited Wales with my family. We 0:29:53.720 --> 0:29:56.959 went to Saint Fagan's National Museum of History, which has 0:29:57.000 --> 0:30:00.880 a lot of these historic Welsh buildings that have been 0:30:01.160 --> 0:30:03.800 moved to this area where you can check them out, 0:30:03.840 --> 0:30:06.040 you can walk inside them. And in many of these 0:30:06.320 --> 0:30:10.080 buildings they had a fireplace going and that was often 0:30:10.160 --> 0:30:13.040 like the main form of illumination and there may or 0:30:13.040 --> 0:30:16.480 may not even be any windows. And it's such an 0:30:16.480 --> 0:30:20.880 insight into it into times when you would be inhabiting 0:30:20.920 --> 0:30:23.320 an indoor environment like that. You know, we were totally 0:30:23.320 --> 0:30:27.120 spoiled for indoor illumination. These days, you can have your 0:30:27.120 --> 0:30:31.560 house generally as bright as you want it, like astoundingly bright. 0:30:32.560 --> 0:30:35.760 But it's an interesting experience to sort of step back 0:30:35.800 --> 0:30:38.800 in time and appreciate like the challenges and not to 0:30:38.800 --> 0:30:41.040 say that they were restricted only to the hearth fire. 0:30:41.600 --> 0:30:45.080 There are other, you know, tricks you could you could 0:30:45.160 --> 0:30:49.280 utilize to up your illumination, but you were limited. Uh, 0:30:49.440 --> 0:30:51.320 and yeah, it's it was a different world. 0:30:51.800 --> 0:30:53.680 And specifically, one of the things I want to come 0:30:53.720 --> 0:30:56.760 back to in part two is ways that that limitation 0:30:57.080 --> 0:31:00.440 could actually be create a kind of freedom or open 0:31:00.440 --> 0:31:05.000 opportunities for other things that are not as apparent. If 0:31:05.040 --> 0:31:07.360 you're just in a daylight type of light or in 0:31:07.400 --> 0:31:10.160 a very bright electrical lighting scenario. 0:31:10.640 --> 0:31:14.120 Yeah. Yeah, in addition to the obvious, like it's dark, 0:31:14.120 --> 0:31:17.719 maybe we should go to sleep. Yeah, it's sometimes a 0:31:17.880 --> 0:31:21.080 kind of a revelation to modern humans. It's like it 0:31:21.160 --> 0:31:25.040 is nighttime. I could sleep, I could turn all of 0:31:25.080 --> 0:31:27.840 this off, and we often don't do that. 0:31:28.800 --> 0:31:31.240 Yeah. I was about to be like, stop staring at 0:31:31.240 --> 0:31:33.120 your phone right before bed, which I do. 0:31:33.800 --> 0:31:36.720 Yeah, it's really hard to shake. It's our little heart 0:31:36.840 --> 0:31:39.720 we bring to bed with us, our little fireplace. Yeah. 0:31:39.800 --> 0:31:42.040 All right, Well, so from here, for the rest of 0:31:42.080 --> 0:31:46.720 today's episode, I wanted to talk briefly about how fireplaces 0:31:46.840 --> 0:31:49.800 are normally constructed, how they normally work in the modern sense, 0:31:50.600 --> 0:31:52.760 and then Rob, I know you had some stuff you 0:31:52.800 --> 0:31:56.760 wanted to get into about fireplaces as kind of magical portals. 0:31:58.000 --> 0:32:01.080 But okay, So one of the things is, obviously, once 0:32:01.160 --> 0:32:04.560 humans started to build houses, to build enclosures to live inside, 0:32:04.720 --> 0:32:07.000 it can be easy to see why you would want 0:32:07.040 --> 0:32:09.440 to have the heat and light benefits of a fire 0:32:09.480 --> 0:32:12.360 inside the protection of the dwelling and not just outside. 0:32:12.840 --> 0:32:15.480 But this actually is not as easy as it sounds. 0:32:15.520 --> 0:32:18.920 You're presented with several concerns. One is how do you 0:32:19.000 --> 0:32:22.120 keep the fire from burning down the house. To do so, 0:32:22.240 --> 0:32:25.719 you would need to build the fireplace kind of away 0:32:25.800 --> 0:32:29.560 from any flammable walls or furniture, or if it is 0:32:29.680 --> 0:32:32.960 touching walls, you would need a fireplace system built into 0:32:33.160 --> 0:32:37.440 non flammable infrastructure, made out of something like stone, brick, clay, 0:32:37.560 --> 0:32:41.120 or metal. Other big thing this is huge how do 0:32:41.200 --> 0:32:43.760 you keep the fire from filling your house up with smoke? 0:32:44.600 --> 0:32:47.000 You need to have some kind of channel through which 0:32:47.080 --> 0:32:51.880 smoke and hot gases can escape the building. Modern fireplaces 0:32:51.920 --> 0:32:54.880 are equipped with dedicated flues and chimneys, as we'll talk 0:32:54.880 --> 0:32:57.959 about in a second, but as we see, many early 0:32:58.080 --> 0:33:03.080 indoor fireplaces had more had cruder ventilation systems, often consisting 0:33:03.240 --> 0:33:06.240 of simply a hole in the roof directly above the fire. 0:33:06.680 --> 0:33:08.920 And this would work to a degree, but it also 0:33:09.080 --> 0:33:11.480 meant that, yeah, for like thousands of years, a lot 0:33:11.520 --> 0:33:14.400 of buildings that housed indoor fires were just going to 0:33:14.480 --> 0:33:16.000 be pretty smoky inside. 0:33:16.320 --> 0:33:19.480 I definitely got a taste of some of that at St. Fagan's. 0:33:19.720 --> 0:33:25.720 Yeah. Now, basic modern fireplace and chimney design goes roughly 0:33:25.840 --> 0:33:28.640 like this. Usually you've got the firebox. This is where 0:33:28.640 --> 0:33:32.360 the fire goes built on top of what's called a hearth. 0:33:32.520 --> 0:33:34.680 This is the more specialized use of the word hearth. 0:33:35.120 --> 0:33:37.680 This is the base of the fireplace that is made 0:33:37.680 --> 0:33:42.200 out of some kind of fireproof material, often bricks or stones, 0:33:43.120 --> 0:33:46.160 and this material, of course, is meant to absorb heat 0:33:46.240 --> 0:33:49.200 from the fire and then heat the room that it's 0:33:49.200 --> 0:33:53.400 in by radiating that heat back out into the air. Now, 0:33:53.440 --> 0:33:56.920 above the firebox you often have like a decorative shelf 0:33:57.000 --> 0:33:59.040 called a mantle, but that's not really part of the 0:33:59.080 --> 0:34:02.600 mechanics of the fireplace. That's just a common decorative feature. 0:34:03.040 --> 0:34:06.040 The channel above the firebox leading to the outside is 0:34:06.040 --> 0:34:08.960 what's called the flu, and then the flu is surrounded 0:34:08.960 --> 0:34:11.759 by the structure that we call the chimney. A lot 0:34:11.760 --> 0:34:15.600 of times the flu is slightly offset from the firebox, 0:34:15.640 --> 0:34:18.799 so it's not just a pipe straight up. Instead, it'll 0:34:18.840 --> 0:34:20.880 be kind of set off to the side or behind, 0:34:21.360 --> 0:34:23.920 and it will be the FLU will be positioned directly 0:34:23.960 --> 0:34:27.400 above something that is called the smoke shelf, where soot 0:34:27.680 --> 0:34:30.600 or anything that happens to penetrate the flu. Opening on 0:34:30.719 --> 0:34:34.120 top of the roof, anything comes in from outdoors can 0:34:34.280 --> 0:34:37.120 fall without landing directly on the fire. Instead, it falls 0:34:37.160 --> 0:34:40.759 onto this shelf. Often. Also, there is a damper which 0:34:40.760 --> 0:34:43.440 allows you to close off the flu when there's no 0:34:43.560 --> 0:34:46.920 fire burning, to stop cold air from coming down in 0:34:46.960 --> 0:34:50.280 the chimney. Very important to remember to open the damper 0:34:50.320 --> 0:34:51.600 before lighting a new fire. 0:34:52.160 --> 0:34:54.160 This is especially true. Yeah, if you're staying in a 0:34:54.160 --> 0:34:57.839 cabin or something it's not your home, maybe back at 0:34:57.840 --> 0:34:59.920 your own house, you're not used to using a fireplace. 0:35:00.239 --> 0:35:02.200 It is an absolutely necessary step. 0:35:02.680 --> 0:35:04.920 Now, we all know that a fire needs fuel and 0:35:04.960 --> 0:35:07.400 heat to burn, but it's also important to remember that 0:35:07.480 --> 0:35:11.520 it needs oxygen, so airflow is important in determining how 0:35:11.600 --> 0:35:15.759 a fire burns and also in determining what effect a 0:35:15.800 --> 0:35:19.600 fire has on the house and its occupants. The majority 0:35:19.680 --> 0:35:23.720 of the interior heat provided by a fireplace is radiant heat. 0:35:23.800 --> 0:35:27.800 It's the infrared radiation coming off of the fire itself 0:35:28.160 --> 0:35:31.919 and then also coming off of the heated parts of 0:35:32.040 --> 0:35:35.040 the hearth or whatever is enclosing the fire, so coming 0:35:35.080 --> 0:35:38.240 off of the heated bricks or stones, or the metal. 0:35:38.280 --> 0:35:40.399 If it's more of a stove design, I'll talk about 0:35:40.440 --> 0:35:43.759 that in a second. But there is an irony to this, 0:35:43.840 --> 0:35:48.960 beloved fixture of the fireplace. Way back in the eighteenth century, 0:35:48.960 --> 0:35:54.000 Benjamin Franklin wrote about how inefficient fireplaces were actually were 0:35:54.160 --> 0:35:58.240 at heating indoor spaces, just huge amounts of wasted energy. 0:35:59.080 --> 0:36:02.120 He noted that the majority of the convective heat that 0:36:02.160 --> 0:36:05.000 they produce just rushes straight up the flu and is 0:36:05.120 --> 0:36:08.360 lost to the outside air. And this is often true, 0:36:08.440 --> 0:36:12.000 though it can vary depending on particulars of the fireplace design. 0:36:13.000 --> 0:36:15.479 In fact, here's a weird thing a lot of people 0:36:15.560 --> 0:36:19.280 might not know. A fire in the fireplace can actually 0:36:19.560 --> 0:36:25.920 make your house colder overall. So this again depends on particulars. 0:36:25.920 --> 0:36:28.520 It depends on the design of the fireplace and the chimney, 0:36:28.640 --> 0:36:32.160 particularly how the ventilation system is configured. But in a 0:36:32.200 --> 0:36:34.719 lot of cases, you build a fire in the fireplace 0:36:35.080 --> 0:36:38.759 and it will increase the temperature in the area directly 0:36:38.920 --> 0:36:41.400 around the fire, you know, mostly again by way of 0:36:41.480 --> 0:36:43.800 radiant heat coming off of the fire and the heated 0:36:43.840 --> 0:36:46.960 stone or brick or metal of the hearth. But meanwhile 0:36:47.080 --> 0:36:50.279 that fire is sucking in air from the inside of 0:36:50.320 --> 0:36:53.680 your house, relatively warm air, probably if it's winter time 0:36:53.719 --> 0:36:56.239 and you have the heat going, or just you know, 0:36:56.640 --> 0:36:59.120 there's warm stuff happening inside the house, and so it's 0:36:59.160 --> 0:37:03.040 warmer than the air outside. So this air from the 0:37:03.080 --> 0:37:05.759 rest of the house is being sucked into the fireplace 0:37:05.800 --> 0:37:09.040 to feed the fire, and then the convection of the 0:37:09.400 --> 0:37:12.800 hot gas plume rising up through the flu is driving 0:37:12.840 --> 0:37:16.719 it outside as it gets superheated. As hot gas and 0:37:16.760 --> 0:37:19.640 smoke rushes up the chimney, a vacuum is created and 0:37:19.760 --> 0:37:22.400 more air continues to flow in from the inside of 0:37:22.440 --> 0:37:26.640 your house to the fireplay system, and thus a vacuum 0:37:26.680 --> 0:37:28.799 is created in the rest of the house, and then 0:37:28.920 --> 0:37:32.480 cold air is pulled in from outside through whatever cracks 0:37:32.520 --> 0:37:34.960 your house has, cracks in the doors and windows and 0:37:34.960 --> 0:37:38.600 so forth. So plenty of tests have shown that an 0:37:38.600 --> 0:37:42.239 inefficient fireplace may feel warm to the room right there 0:37:42.280 --> 0:37:44.960 in front of the blaze, but actually freezes out the 0:37:44.960 --> 0:37:47.560 rest of the house. They even did an episode of 0:37:47.560 --> 0:37:50.799 MythBusters where they featured this one time. I haven't seen this, 0:37:50.920 --> 0:37:52.880 but I read about it, and I read that in 0:37:52.920 --> 0:37:56.600 their particular test rooms farther away in the house got 0:37:56.600 --> 0:37:58.640 a couple of degrees celsius colder. 0:37:59.200 --> 0:38:01.040 This is fascinating and it makes me think back on 0:38:01.080 --> 0:38:03.440 times I've been in houses where there is a fireplace, 0:38:03.960 --> 0:38:05.880 and I'll I mean, I will often find myself in 0:38:05.880 --> 0:38:08.040 this situation where it's like I'm somewhere else in the house, 0:38:08.360 --> 0:38:10.040 start feeling kind of chilly. Then I have to go 0:38:10.160 --> 0:38:12.520 like right next to the fireplace to warm up. And 0:38:12.560 --> 0:38:16.600 this pattern kind of continues. Yeah, and now I'm realizing 0:38:16.840 --> 0:38:19.600 it could be in part due to the presence of 0:38:19.640 --> 0:38:24.360 the fireplace to begin with inequality of temperature. 0:38:24.840 --> 0:38:27.840 Now, there are ways to improve the heating efficiency of 0:38:27.840 --> 0:38:30.839 a wood fire. One is to replace it with a 0:38:30.920 --> 0:38:33.920 wood is to replace your open fireplace with a wood stove. 0:38:34.520 --> 0:38:37.400 So this would be a fireplace completely enclosed in a 0:38:37.440 --> 0:38:41.000 metal box, which uses air more efficiently. It sucks less 0:38:41.040 --> 0:38:44.520 cold air into your house, and also it radiates heat 0:38:44.560 --> 0:38:47.880 into the house more efficiently, like the metal can radiate 0:38:47.960 --> 0:38:51.400 in all directions. You might notice a traditional stone or 0:38:51.440 --> 0:38:54.680 brick fireplace is usually built into a wall, whereas a 0:38:54.719 --> 0:38:57.560 wood stove is more often closer to the middle of 0:38:57.600 --> 0:38:59.719 the room and can radiate in all directions. 0:39:00.320 --> 0:39:02.680 Yeah, my late father in law was really into like 0:39:02.800 --> 0:39:07.799 passive solar and design and houses and you know, not 0:39:07.840 --> 0:39:09.719 quite like living off the grid kind of stuff. But 0:39:09.800 --> 0:39:11.399 like all the things you could do with a house 0:39:11.440 --> 0:39:14.520 to sort of like limit the need for electricity and 0:39:14.520 --> 0:39:17.759 so forth, and like that was a Keith aspect of 0:39:17.800 --> 0:39:21.600 his home design was having that wood stove and yeah, 0:39:21.800 --> 0:39:23.839 it's not stuck in the wall. It's like out there 0:39:24.160 --> 0:39:25.440 basically in the center of the house. 0:39:25.880 --> 0:39:28.000 And we might talk more about this in part too. 0:39:28.040 --> 0:39:31.279 But there are also designs that improve the heating efficiency 0:39:31.320 --> 0:39:35.560 because they don't draw air from the interior of the house. Instead, 0:39:35.600 --> 0:39:38.800 they've got like an external intake vent of some kind 0:39:39.239 --> 0:39:42.040 feeding a fire that heats a structure made of again 0:39:42.120 --> 0:39:45.520 a fireproof material like brickstone or metal or tile, and 0:39:45.560 --> 0:39:49.360 then that radiates heat into the building, but the airflow 0:39:49.360 --> 0:39:52.520 system just doesn't really connect to the inside of the house. 0:39:52.600 --> 0:39:55.160 That also is a way of improving the heating efficiency. 0:39:56.080 --> 0:39:59.319 Though there's an interesting sort of a converse implication here 0:39:59.320 --> 0:40:01.640 which I discovered. Shout out one of my sources on 0:40:01.680 --> 0:40:04.880 fireplaces and how they generally work here was how stuff 0:40:04.920 --> 0:40:08.600 Works article our old employer. This one was by John Kelly, 0:40:08.760 --> 0:40:13.200 So a nice job, John, But basically the idea here 0:40:13.320 --> 0:40:15.600 is that if you notice you're building a fire and 0:40:15.640 --> 0:40:18.200 it's like having a hard time burning and the damper 0:40:18.239 --> 0:40:20.600 is open, and yet there's still a lot of smoke 0:40:20.719 --> 0:40:23.920 coming into the house. A problem could be that the 0:40:24.000 --> 0:40:26.759 house is too well sealed, like the doors and the 0:40:26.760 --> 0:40:28.960 windows are too well sealed, and the fire is not 0:40:29.239 --> 0:40:32.520 able to create this efficient river of air from the 0:40:32.560 --> 0:40:36.120 outside into the house into the fireplace, up the flu 0:40:36.200 --> 0:40:39.680 and then back outside, so instead it's pulling some air 0:40:39.800 --> 0:40:42.799 down the flu, which is causing a counter draft and 0:40:42.840 --> 0:40:46.120 sending smoke into the room. So if you are having 0:40:46.200 --> 0:40:49.120 this problem, one thing to try is like opening a window, 0:40:49.440 --> 0:40:51.319 though of course that's going to let a bunch of 0:40:51.360 --> 0:40:53.720 cold air in, so that may just be the price. 0:40:54.280 --> 0:40:56.920 Wow, I had never thought about that, huh. 0:40:56.920 --> 0:41:00.799 But anyway, I'm just thinking about the implications of a 0:41:00.880 --> 0:41:04.680 fireplace often making the rest of the house colder, even 0:41:04.719 --> 0:41:07.879 while it makes one or two rooms much warmer. And 0:41:08.719 --> 0:41:11.719 this made me think about an unintended secondary effect of 0:41:12.560 --> 0:41:16.960 wood fire heating being the tendency to cause people to gather. 0:41:17.440 --> 0:41:20.360 Yeah, this is a great point. Yeah, drawing people to 0:41:20.600 --> 0:41:24.400 the hearth, to the fire, drawing them together and thus 0:41:25.880 --> 0:41:28.880 and thus becoming like a center of the family of 0:41:29.880 --> 0:41:33.040 social interaction, storytelling and so forth. 0:41:33.320 --> 0:41:36.719 Yeah, there's like a sort of unstated little punishment for 0:41:36.760 --> 0:41:39.920 being off by yourself. It's just gonna make your room colder. 0:41:40.280 --> 0:41:56.000 Yeah, now, you know it is Christmas time, and so 0:41:56.360 --> 0:42:02.920 a lot of folks are engaging in different fireplace related traditions, 0:42:03.440 --> 0:42:05.759 the hanging of stockings and so forth. And what do 0:42:05.719 --> 0:42:08.200 you use traditionally hang your stockings? Why you hang them 0:42:08.920 --> 0:42:12.040 by the hearth? You hang them above the fireplace. And 0:42:12.120 --> 0:42:14.080 of course we have tales of Santa Claus, or perhaps 0:42:14.120 --> 0:42:18.799 they masquerading Grinch, entering your home by crawling down your 0:42:18.920 --> 0:42:24.359 chimney and climbing in through the fireplace. This is one 0:42:24.360 --> 0:42:27.560 of those, I think, examples of the fireplace as a portal, 0:42:27.640 --> 0:42:32.600 a fireplace as a gate through which something may travel. 0:42:32.800 --> 0:42:34.840 That it's almost too close to us, you know, we 0:42:34.960 --> 0:42:37.440 grow up with this tradition, we're told it from an 0:42:37.440 --> 0:42:41.080 early age. We're familiar with this story before. We're familiar 0:42:41.120 --> 0:42:45.080 with many of the like foundation stories of our own religions, 0:42:45.800 --> 0:42:50.480 you know, and important cultural other important cultural tales, arguably 0:42:50.480 --> 0:42:54.279 more important cultural tales. We have this story of a 0:42:54.320 --> 0:42:58.600 strange old man who climbs through the fireplace, again, almost 0:42:58.600 --> 0:43:00.719 too close for us to even think about it. We'll 0:43:00.719 --> 0:43:02.839 come back to that in a second. But another way, 0:43:02.840 --> 0:43:05.360 of course that and this is one that may resonate 0:43:05.360 --> 0:43:09.160 more with fireplace owners people who actually have hearts in 0:43:09.200 --> 0:43:13.920 their home, is the reality that, okay, as a literal 0:43:14.840 --> 0:43:17.960 aperture to the outside of your home, it is possible 0:43:18.000 --> 0:43:22.160 for animals to climb down that chimney and potentially enter 0:43:22.200 --> 0:43:25.880 your home. They may be prevented full access to the home, 0:43:25.960 --> 0:43:30.360 but bats, raccoons, mice, various squirrels are just some of 0:43:30.400 --> 0:43:34.680 the examples of potential chimney splunkers. I know I've encountered 0:43:34.680 --> 0:43:38.000 bats in this manner before at a friend's house, where 0:43:38.040 --> 0:43:40.520 like a bat or two would come into the chimney, 0:43:40.520 --> 0:43:43.239 get trapped in the house, and then you would find them, 0:43:43.400 --> 0:43:47.080 often in the sink trying to get water. WHOA, Yeah, 0:43:47.280 --> 0:43:48.880 I came to this house like some it was, you know, 0:43:48.960 --> 0:43:50.799 it's like a vacation home or something, so nobody had 0:43:50.840 --> 0:43:53.160 been in it for a little bit, and I saw 0:43:53.160 --> 0:43:55.000 something in the sink and I'm like, oh, someone left 0:43:55.000 --> 0:43:58.560 a tea bag and I almost grabbed it throw it away, 0:43:58.600 --> 0:44:01.560 and then iized, oh, that's a bat. And then I 0:44:01.600 --> 0:44:03.560 had to call my friend and be like what's your 0:44:03.800 --> 0:44:08.400 bat protocol? The bat was fine. 0:44:08.880 --> 0:44:11.759 Thiss never even occurred to me. I cannot relate, but 0:44:11.800 --> 0:44:14.000 that's incredible now. 0:44:14.080 --> 0:44:16.960 This idea, though, of a chimney is a portal through 0:44:17.000 --> 0:44:20.720 which other worldly powers may traverse, such as Santa Claus. 0:44:21.400 --> 0:44:25.320 This is a pretty deeply seated concept, certainly in European traditions, 0:44:25.800 --> 0:44:30.239 but you can also see examples of similar ideas from 0:44:30.560 --> 0:44:34.640 pretty far flung traditions, seemingly to connect with the various 0:44:34.760 --> 0:44:39.920 supernatural concepts you might encounter about the home, about fire technology, 0:44:40.160 --> 0:44:43.520 about cooking, and just the nature of the flame itself. 0:44:44.160 --> 0:44:47.280 For instance, Carol Rose, in her Encyclopedia of Giants, Monsters, 0:44:47.280 --> 0:44:50.680 and Dragons that I frequently cite, mentions a tradition of 0:44:50.719 --> 0:44:56.719 the clean Get peoples of Northwestern United States the tell 0:44:56.960 --> 0:45:03.320 of Heya Kanako, the old woman underneath us, an enormous 0:45:03.320 --> 0:45:07.520 protective deity of the earth who concentrates on supporting the 0:45:07.560 --> 0:45:10.640 world almost in you know a similar sense to Atlas, 0:45:10.680 --> 0:45:13.400 you know, holding up the earth. But when her hunger 0:45:13.480 --> 0:45:18.880 gets the better off her, her concentration falters and earthquakes ensue, 0:45:18.920 --> 0:45:22.920 and so humans occasionally throw bits of fat into their 0:45:22.960 --> 0:45:27.640 hearths and, as Carol Rose describes it, in order to 0:45:29.719 --> 0:45:33.760 help her overcome her hunger and to concentrate on keeping 0:45:33.800 --> 0:45:38.320 the earth imbalance. So you know, it's not something crawling 0:45:38.360 --> 0:45:41.920 through the fire through the hearth, but it's this idea 0:45:42.040 --> 0:45:46.480 of the hearth is kind of this connection, in almost 0:45:46.520 --> 0:45:50.080 a physical connection to some sort of supernatural force. 0:45:50.600 --> 0:45:53.360 Yeah. I think the general use of fire for burnt 0:45:53.400 --> 0:45:56.400 offering or sacrifice indicates a way of thinking of the 0:45:56.440 --> 0:46:00.400 fire as a kind of interface point between our world 0:46:00.440 --> 0:46:04.279 in the other world, that you can burn something to 0:46:04.360 --> 0:46:06.800 kind of send it through a portal to the gods. 0:46:07.520 --> 0:46:09.239 Yeah. And what I like about this one though, is 0:46:09.280 --> 0:46:13.399 the idea that it's not a special fire created for 0:46:13.480 --> 0:46:16.880 a special ritual purpose. It's more like the everyday fire. 0:46:17.239 --> 0:46:20.920 But even the everyday fire has the potential to be 0:46:21.120 --> 0:46:24.520 this gateway. And you know, again, it makes sense when 0:46:24.560 --> 0:46:27.040 you think about all the convergence of activities and energies 0:46:27.120 --> 0:46:32.480 at the hearth, the warmth, the illumination, food preparation, social gathering. 0:46:32.520 --> 0:46:34.719 You know, perhaps due to the fact that it's in 0:46:35.640 --> 0:46:37.680 a home situation that the rest of the home is cold, 0:46:38.000 --> 0:46:42.959 and drawing people together to tell stories, tell jokes, share 0:46:43.000 --> 0:46:46.319 their experiences, and on top of that, it is an 0:46:46.360 --> 0:46:50.520 obvious aperture to the outside world, which certainly brings about 0:46:50.560 --> 0:46:54.680 the possibility of various natural world creatures gaining access to 0:46:54.719 --> 0:46:58.560 your abode. But let us also remember that we're also 0:46:58.600 --> 0:47:01.319 talking about a gateway through which air can pass and 0:47:01.400 --> 0:47:04.960 does pass, And as most of human history is pre 0:47:05.080 --> 0:47:07.720 germ theory, I think you can see where this is going. 0:47:07.800 --> 0:47:10.959 The idea that this is also an aperture through which 0:47:11.120 --> 0:47:14.680 bad air could travel, or something in the air, something 0:47:14.719 --> 0:47:20.160 that is not as constricted as physical as physical beings 0:47:20.160 --> 0:47:22.920 are constricted, that they could pass through that small hole. 0:47:22.960 --> 0:47:25.839 They could essentially pass through the keyhole, and that's all 0:47:25.880 --> 0:47:26.839 the space they need. 0:47:27.840 --> 0:47:29.680 Interesting it reminds me. 0:47:29.680 --> 0:47:32.480 Actually of a tradition we talked about, an idea of 0:47:32.680 --> 0:47:36.960 the Dine or Navajo people. This came up in a 0:47:36.960 --> 0:47:39.760 couple of episodes, I think in our Dust episodes actually, 0:47:40.560 --> 0:47:44.440 the idea that you might have an adante, a practitioner 0:47:44.480 --> 0:47:49.160 of secret evil magic, who might introduce a magical poison 0:47:49.239 --> 0:47:54.120 or illness into a home through its smoke hole. So 0:47:54.200 --> 0:47:57.400 that definitely came to mind here, the smoke hole in 0:47:58.000 --> 0:48:00.759 a traditional home. This could be an aperture that could 0:48:00.760 --> 0:48:05.600 be exploited by an evil doer, and in European traditions, 0:48:05.680 --> 0:48:09.320 spilling over into early American colonial traditions, this concept carried 0:48:09.320 --> 0:48:12.960 a great deal of weight, something that previous guests on 0:48:13.080 --> 0:48:16.400 Stuff to Blow your Mind Brian Hoggard discusses in his 0:48:16.440 --> 0:48:21.000 excellent twenty nineteen book Magical House Protection, The Archaeology of 0:48:21.080 --> 0:48:25.160 counter Witchcraft. I know some of you probably listened to 0:48:25.239 --> 0:48:27.440 that episode. It's a great one if you want to 0:48:27.480 --> 0:48:30.280 go back and listen to an interview with the author. 0:48:30.600 --> 0:48:32.799 But I'm going to discuss some of the ideas that 0:48:32.840 --> 0:48:34.800 he brought up in that book here as it relates 0:48:34.840 --> 0:48:37.960 to this topic. So, in the book, Hoggard discusses the 0:48:38.040 --> 0:48:42.640 various counter witchcraft rights and rituals that Europeans use, dating 0:48:42.680 --> 0:48:48.000 back at least to the Middle Ages, functioning alongside and generally, 0:48:48.040 --> 0:48:52.240 I guess in spite of protections offered by the Christian 0:48:52.280 --> 0:48:55.120 faith and Christian tradition. This is coming up on the 0:48:55.120 --> 0:48:59.719 show before you know. You have the various church approved 0:49:00.880 --> 0:49:05.480 methods that you might take against supernatural evil, but are 0:49:05.480 --> 0:49:07.600 you gonna limit yourself to just those or are you 0:49:07.640 --> 0:49:11.799 gonna also set other traps and wards in place. But 0:49:12.400 --> 0:49:18.399 in this case we're talking about supernatural, superstitious folk protections 0:49:18.840 --> 0:49:23.080 that were clearly deemed absolutely necessary by many to combat 0:49:23.200 --> 0:49:27.359 evil in a demon haunted world. Hoggard stresses that the 0:49:27.440 --> 0:49:31.000 archaeological evidence suggests that unseen supernatural threats were just a 0:49:31.040 --> 0:49:35.680 standard part of everyday existence. Supernatural evil was everywhere, and 0:49:35.760 --> 0:49:38.000 you had to bust out all the tricks in order 0:49:38.040 --> 0:49:41.319 to if not completely protect yourself, then at least been 0:49:41.400 --> 0:49:45.120 the odds even slightly in your favor, and is explored 0:49:45.120 --> 0:49:47.800 in the book. These efforts often took the form of 0:49:48.320 --> 0:49:53.480 a ritual object or objects hidden in the home. He writes, 0:49:53.560 --> 0:49:57.120 quote the most popular locations to conceal objects within buildings 0:49:57.320 --> 0:50:01.080 are usually at portals such as the hearth, the threshold, 0:50:01.360 --> 0:50:05.400 and also voids or dead spaces. This suggests that people 0:50:05.400 --> 0:50:08.359 believed it was possible for dark forces to travel through 0:50:08.360 --> 0:50:11.759 the landscape and attack them in their homes. Whether these 0:50:11.800 --> 0:50:14.400 forces were emanations from a witch in the form of 0:50:14.440 --> 0:50:17.920 a spell, a witch is familiar pestering their property, an 0:50:17.920 --> 0:50:21.000 actual witch flying in spirit, or a combination of all 0:50:21.040 --> 0:50:24.040 of those is difficult to tell. Additional sources of danger 0:50:24.080 --> 0:50:27.399 could be ghosts, fairies, and demons. People went to great 0:50:27.480 --> 0:50:30.759 lengths to ensure their homes and property were protected, highlighting 0:50:30.760 --> 0:50:33.520 the fact that these beliefs and fears were visceral and, 0:50:33.600 --> 0:50:36.719 as far as they were concerned, literally terrifying. 0:50:37.640 --> 0:50:42.760 Interesting yet again, the way that some physical intuitions apply 0:50:42.920 --> 0:50:46.160 to these apparently magical substances, like the spell of a 0:50:46.200 --> 0:50:49.200 witch or which is familiar, which you might well assume 0:50:49.239 --> 0:50:52.800 could just you know, pass magically through any wall or whatever. 0:50:53.520 --> 0:50:57.480 It seems people were especially concerned about voids and portals, 0:50:57.520 --> 0:51:00.319 like the physical gaps that a physical being would need 0:51:00.360 --> 0:51:01.120 to travel through. 0:51:01.880 --> 0:51:05.200 I mean, I imagine a lot of you have had 0:51:05.200 --> 0:51:07.560 this experience. I mean, to be clear, some of you 0:51:07.600 --> 0:51:10.440 may have the experience of finding some of these secreted 0:51:11.480 --> 0:51:14.560 and hidden items, and if so, do write in. We 0:51:14.560 --> 0:51:16.400 would love to hear from you. But I find it 0:51:16.480 --> 0:51:18.799 like a little strange when I encounter a void in 0:51:18.840 --> 0:51:21.120 my house. When you realize, like, here is a space 0:51:21.160 --> 0:51:23.799 within my home where there is nothing you know, and 0:51:23.840 --> 0:51:26.880 that's that I don't know. It shouldn't feel creepy, but 0:51:26.960 --> 0:51:27.360 it does. 0:51:27.640 --> 0:51:29.880 What's under the stairs nothing? 0:51:30.160 --> 0:51:43.880 There's nothing there. Now, if you're not familiar with the 0:51:43.920 --> 0:51:47.600 details that HAWKERD gets into and the details that came 0:51:47.680 --> 0:51:49.840 up in that interview I conducted a while back. You 0:51:49.920 --> 0:51:52.399 might be wondering, well, what sort of ritual objects are 0:51:52.400 --> 0:51:55.600 we talking about hidden away in homes and voids and 0:51:55.640 --> 0:52:00.320 so forth, potentially near the hearth to afford protection against 0:52:00.320 --> 0:52:04.600 these many evils. Well, there are various examples, but some 0:52:04.640 --> 0:52:06.560 of the main ones are as follows. First of all, 0:52:06.600 --> 0:52:08.640 there's just protective marks. And I feel like this is 0:52:08.680 --> 0:52:11.200 this is fairly self explanatory. You know, some sort of 0:52:11.239 --> 0:52:16.040 a symbol or a sigil that has protective properties and 0:52:16.080 --> 0:52:18.640 that may be hidden away somewhere in a home. 0:52:18.920 --> 0:52:19.280 Okay. 0:52:20.000 --> 0:52:22.560 This next one, though, this one was the one that 0:52:22.680 --> 0:52:25.840 I found surprising at the time I was not familiar 0:52:25.880 --> 0:52:28.640 with prior to reading this book, and that is shoes. 0:52:29.320 --> 0:52:31.839 And I think this one's especially interesting because from our 0:52:31.880 --> 0:52:35.080 modern perspective, we often forget just what a shoe is. 0:52:35.120 --> 0:52:37.279 We can take it for granted, we can have, you know, 0:52:37.400 --> 0:52:40.040 hundreds of them, and we may love shoes to death 0:52:40.080 --> 0:52:43.799 without like, without really thinking about this vital aspect of 0:52:43.800 --> 0:52:46.080 what they are. Yeah, yes, we put them on our 0:52:46.120 --> 0:52:48.320 feet to walk about in, and you know, not step 0:52:48.360 --> 0:52:50.920 on nails and rocks and so forth, keep our feet warm, 0:52:51.280 --> 0:52:54.400 make our feet look you know, snazzy and cool. But 0:52:54.480 --> 0:52:59.080 they are also flesh like sheaths, sometimes made from animal products, 0:52:59.360 --> 0:53:03.239 that are so perhaps individually sized for the shape of 0:53:03.239 --> 0:53:06.520 our feet, or if nothing else. Over time they take 0:53:06.560 --> 0:53:08.839 on the shape of our feet. They take on the 0:53:08.880 --> 0:53:12.840 odor of our feet. These are two details, especially the 0:53:12.880 --> 0:53:16.280 odor that is often lost on us, perhaps not lost 0:53:16.320 --> 0:53:19.360 on our dogs and cats. They know these shoes smell 0:53:19.440 --> 0:53:25.960 like us, and are like potent familiar items of us. 0:53:26.000 --> 0:53:28.440 You know, our cat will lay on shoes a lot, 0:53:28.960 --> 0:53:32.400 and I've read some commentary on this kind of behavior 0:53:32.400 --> 0:53:34.320 in cats and dogs, where they will be drawn to 0:53:34.360 --> 0:53:38.160 the shoes because they remind them of the owners of 0:53:38.200 --> 0:53:41.120 said shoes. And all this would seem to be part 0:53:41.160 --> 0:53:44.240 of the superstitious calculus for these traditions. So a shoe 0:53:44.320 --> 0:53:47.160 may wear out beyond repair in the case of a 0:53:47.560 --> 0:53:50.840 child's shoes and shoes that they may outgrow them, but 0:53:51.440 --> 0:53:53.959 they are still then objects that have to a large 0:53:54.000 --> 0:53:56.520 extent become a part of us. You know, they are 0:53:56.560 --> 0:54:00.120 shaped after us, they smell of us, and they're therefore 0:54:00.200 --> 0:54:04.520 dangerous items to discard in much the same way that 0:54:04.680 --> 0:54:07.560 nail clippings and hair were often seen as such like 0:54:07.640 --> 0:54:10.279 they were a part of you. They still are a 0:54:10.400 --> 0:54:13.200 part of you, and that is dangerous material to just 0:54:13.320 --> 0:54:17.320 leave out in the world where an evil doer or 0:54:17.360 --> 0:54:19.720 an evil spirit may come across it and by doing 0:54:19.760 --> 0:54:21.239 so gain power over you. 0:54:22.120 --> 0:54:24.279 This type of folk belief is sometimes referred to as 0:54:24.320 --> 0:54:28.200 the law of contagion. That like things that were once 0:54:28.440 --> 0:54:32.600 united or in contact with one another, if they become separated, 0:54:32.800 --> 0:54:35.840 you may need to do some kind of cleansing or exorcism, 0:54:36.000 --> 0:54:40.000 or some kind of ritual acknowledgment of the severing there 0:54:40.160 --> 0:54:43.360 or destruction of the thing as it is separated from you, 0:54:43.880 --> 0:54:46.120 or else it can be used to have power over 0:54:46.160 --> 0:54:49.120 you by way of the associative magical connection. 0:54:49.920 --> 0:54:52.640 Yeah yeah, or in this case, you find another use 0:54:52.680 --> 0:54:55.319 for them, and so. According to Hoggard, shoes and other 0:54:55.360 --> 0:54:58.880 objects were often deposited on ledges within the chimney, breast 0:54:58.960 --> 0:55:02.160 or behind the fireback any stresses that quote. Shoes are 0:55:02.160 --> 0:55:06.560 perhaps the most commonly encountered apotropaic objects and often had 0:55:06.600 --> 0:55:08.560 an association with the hearth. 0:55:08.800 --> 0:55:11.440 Oh interesting, so the same object that could become your 0:55:11.520 --> 0:55:15.319 vulnerability if discarded and found by a witch, could be 0:55:15.400 --> 0:55:17.759 your protective amulet if you keep it, if you keep 0:55:17.800 --> 0:55:19.239 it in the home right. 0:55:19.280 --> 0:55:21.680 And I'll come back to why this may be in 0:55:21.760 --> 0:55:24.200 just a second, but before we do, I want to 0:55:24.239 --> 0:55:26.680 talk briefly about witch bottles, which are I think the 0:55:26.760 --> 0:55:32.920 more exciting and exotic sounding version of apotropaic objects hidden 0:55:32.960 --> 0:55:35.640 in a home, often in the area of the hearth. 0:55:36.080 --> 0:55:39.000 Now there's some variety to what these will consist of, 0:55:39.880 --> 0:55:42.359 but you know, they have been found, they've been analyzed, 0:55:42.840 --> 0:55:44.680 they're still being found. That's one of the great things 0:55:44.719 --> 0:55:47.000 that as Hagard discusses, is that you have so many 0:55:47.000 --> 0:55:50.000 different waves of renovation that take place with some of 0:55:50.040 --> 0:55:54.480 these old homes in Europe, in Britain, in the UK, 0:55:54.640 --> 0:55:58.400 and also in parts of the United States and Canada 0:55:58.400 --> 0:56:02.640 as well, where people will suddenly discover a pair of 0:56:02.680 --> 0:56:07.600 ancient shoes or a strange bottle. And he also discusses 0:56:07.600 --> 0:56:11.520 how there are cases where people have suddenly sort of 0:56:11.560 --> 0:56:14.319 given into some of the superstition of it and they've 0:56:14.360 --> 0:56:16.960 had to put sad item back. You know, it's like 0:56:17.239 --> 0:56:19.280 it's kind of like the reverse of finding a void. 0:56:19.800 --> 0:56:22.759 You find a purposeful item but you don't fully understand. 0:56:23.840 --> 0:56:26.480 You're not on the same like mental wavelength with it, 0:56:26.520 --> 0:56:29.040 but you come to believe, well, I should put it back. 0:56:29.840 --> 0:56:31.719 I don't know my way around all of this enough 0:56:31.760 --> 0:56:33.200 to say it doesn't belong there. 0:56:33.640 --> 0:56:36.200 I can sympathize with that. And this may just say 0:56:36.200 --> 0:56:40.440 something about my you know, personality or kind of tendencies, 0:56:40.480 --> 0:56:45.560 the character tendencies. But while I would never take active 0:56:45.719 --> 0:56:48.720 steps to do it to like, you know, put shoes 0:56:48.719 --> 0:56:50.960 in a wall thinking it would protect my house or something, 0:56:51.000 --> 0:56:54.920 I would feel weird about taking something out. Yeah, yeah, 0:56:55.120 --> 0:56:58.000 it seems like, well, feels like I shouldn't do that. 0:56:58.640 --> 0:57:01.200 Yeah, that maybe a load bearing shoe. 0:57:01.520 --> 0:57:02.360 Just leave it alone. 0:57:03.920 --> 0:57:06.319 So with witch bottles, again there's some variation as to 0:57:06.360 --> 0:57:11.240 what they may hold, but there are various written instructions 0:57:11.560 --> 0:57:15.200 from historical records that talk about what goes into a 0:57:15.239 --> 0:57:18.800 witch bottle, and one that Hoggard shares. This is from 0:57:19.000 --> 0:57:22.360 seventeen oh one and he includes it in his book, 0:57:22.480 --> 0:57:24.600 and basically the directions are to take a pint of 0:57:24.640 --> 0:57:28.200 your own urine, heat it to near scalding temperatures, pour 0:57:28.240 --> 0:57:31.680 it into a jug, and then add white salt and 0:57:31.840 --> 0:57:35.400 three new nails with the points down. Then you bind 0:57:35.520 --> 0:57:37.960 the jug with clay and leather and you heat it 0:57:38.000 --> 0:57:40.040 over embers for nine to ten days. 0:57:40.520 --> 0:57:42.760 It's gotta work because look at all the steps. 0:57:43.080 --> 0:57:46.160 Yeah, and I think sometimes there are more steps that 0:57:46.240 --> 0:57:48.440 may be a simplified version, but it's the basics are 0:57:48.520 --> 0:57:51.720 in play here, the urine, the pointy objects. Sometimes they're 0:57:51.760 --> 0:57:54.200 pins or needles. Sometimes it's like a lot of like 0:57:54.280 --> 0:57:57.000 rusty nails, pins or needles, and so forth. So in 0:57:57.040 --> 0:57:59.520 the case of the shoes and the witch bottle, here 0:58:00.200 --> 0:58:03.960 basic idea would seem to be this. You have an 0:58:04.080 --> 0:58:07.800 unseen evil force, be it a demon, a fairy, a ghost, 0:58:08.000 --> 0:58:11.720 or some curse of a witch, and it is seeking you. 0:58:12.160 --> 0:58:15.920 It has entered your home, perhaps through a door, perhaps 0:58:15.960 --> 0:58:20.600 through a window, perhaps down the chimney and through the fireplace. 0:58:21.120 --> 0:58:24.800 It's seeking you out. But what does an encounter. Instead, 0:58:25.440 --> 0:58:29.640 it encounters your smell, and encounters the shoe that was 0:58:29.680 --> 0:58:31.640 so much a part of your body and now can 0:58:31.680 --> 0:58:35.200 be mistaken for your body, and it goes after that. Instead, 0:58:35.240 --> 0:58:37.920 it serves as a decoy. And in the case of 0:58:38.000 --> 0:58:42.240 the witch bottle, it's even more exciting. So it smells 0:58:42.280 --> 0:58:46.280 that deep uriny stench that is associated with you. But 0:58:46.320 --> 0:58:48.480 it's found the bottle first. And so what does this 0:58:48.720 --> 0:58:53.000 evil thing do, this spirit, this dark seeker in the night, 0:58:53.480 --> 0:58:56.880 It climbs inside that bottle. But uh oh, now it 0:58:56.960 --> 0:59:00.440 is either trapped in the bottle or it is hailed 0:59:00.680 --> 0:59:03.640 upon all of those sharp pointy bits inside the bottle 0:59:03.920 --> 0:59:08.680 and therefore injured or perhaps killed by this witch bottle, 0:59:08.720 --> 0:59:10.560 this trap that has been set for it. 0:59:11.280 --> 0:59:13.760 That's ingenious. I didn't know it was going there with 0:59:13.840 --> 0:59:16.000 the nails, but that makes sense. I was wondering if 0:59:16.000 --> 0:59:18.000 the nails had some kind of you know, they might 0:59:18.040 --> 0:59:21.440 be iron nails unless the iron significance as like a 0:59:21.520 --> 0:59:24.760 protective magic against the fairy folk and so forth. 0:59:24.920 --> 0:59:26.800 Yeah, and there may be part of that to it 0:59:26.840 --> 0:59:30.400 as well, you know. And certainly protective magics like this, 0:59:30.600 --> 0:59:34.160 you know, they may sort of like drag various ideas 0:59:34.200 --> 0:59:38.360 with them across time. So I would not discount the 0:59:38.600 --> 0:59:41.960 importance of the iron at all. But this is all 0:59:42.080 --> 0:59:46.600 very interesting to think about in comparison to various Christmas traditions, 0:59:46.600 --> 0:59:49.680 like I instantly think about wooden clogs left out for 0:59:49.840 --> 0:59:52.919 Saint Nicholas or Santa though I've also read that prior 0:59:53.000 --> 0:59:55.480 to the sixteenth century, at least in some European countries, 0:59:55.520 --> 0:59:57.400 the clogs were left in the church rather than in 0:59:57.400 --> 1:00:01.640 the home. I'm not as well versed in the history 1:00:01.680 --> 1:00:05.240 of those traditions, but at any rate, you do have 1:00:05.320 --> 1:00:09.800 examples where shoes are left out so that some entity 1:00:10.200 --> 1:00:14.400 may deposit gifts inside them. And those shoes may be placed, 1:00:14.440 --> 1:00:16.600 I think, often near doors or windows. So there still 1:00:16.680 --> 1:00:19.560 is that sense of put them near the aperture, put 1:00:19.600 --> 1:00:22.440 them near the portals. And where do we hang our 1:00:22.480 --> 1:00:25.640 stockings with care? We of course hang them again by 1:00:25.680 --> 1:00:30.960 the fireplace, oh, by the hearth. Yeah, almost as if 1:00:31.000 --> 1:00:33.800 we're trying to throw Santa Claus off the scent. You know, 1:00:33.880 --> 1:00:36.400 there is no need, strange one, to bring the gifts 1:00:36.440 --> 1:00:40.680 directly to the children. Here is their sense, smell their feet, 1:00:41.600 --> 1:00:44.680 Here is the essence you seek. Leave the gifts here, 1:00:45.080 --> 1:00:47.960 leave the children alone in their room, or the coal 1:00:48.080 --> 1:00:51.200 I guess if applicable, Yes, there is no need to 1:00:51.240 --> 1:00:54.280 put the coal inside the children, leave it in the socks, 1:00:55.360 --> 1:00:57.640 and thus he is outsmarted, and he leaves the children 1:00:57.640 --> 1:00:58.720 alone for another year. 1:00:59.360 --> 1:01:03.880 What res this idea is now bounding about inside me? 1:01:05.320 --> 1:01:09.360 One more note from Brian Haggard. I was looking through 1:01:09.360 --> 1:01:11.040 the book to see I couldn't remember if he had 1:01:11.440 --> 1:01:16.120 mentioned anything Christmasy in particular, And he does mention a 1:01:16.360 --> 1:01:20.800 rhyme that was associated with ritual burn marks from tapers 1:01:21.160 --> 1:01:23.560 in homes. So, like I said, there were various there 1:01:23.560 --> 1:01:26.840 were various marks and signs inside some of these old 1:01:26.880 --> 1:01:31.960 homes that are interpreted as being associated with various protective, 1:01:32.040 --> 1:01:36.360 magical activities and rituals. And one of them, you know, 1:01:36.720 --> 1:01:38.400 I think could be easy to miss. It's just like 1:01:38.480 --> 1:01:41.320 burn marks in a house. I included a picture from 1:01:41.320 --> 1:01:42.960 his book here for you to look at, Joe, Like, 1:01:42.960 --> 1:01:44.680 if you didn't know what you're looking at, you might 1:01:44.760 --> 1:01:47.200 just think these were caused by some other you know, 1:01:47.200 --> 1:01:50.040 I don't know, something that occurred during construction or something 1:01:50.120 --> 1:01:54.760 like that. Yeah, But an interpretation here is that these 1:01:54.840 --> 1:01:58.880 were ritual burn marks. And he includes this is a translation, 1:01:59.040 --> 1:02:02.640 but it is a translation of a German rhyme that 1:02:02.880 --> 1:02:07.240 apparently went along with some holiday traditions of protecting the home. 1:02:07.840 --> 1:02:09.160 So I'm going to read it here again. This is 1:02:09.160 --> 1:02:13.520 from Brian Huggard's book, and it goes as follows and 1:02:13.640 --> 1:02:16.880 round about the house they go with torch or taper, 1:02:16.960 --> 1:02:20.959 clear that neither bread nor meat do want no which 1:02:21.080 --> 1:02:24.960 with dreadful charm have power to hurt their children or 1:02:25.040 --> 1:02:28.160 do the cattle harm. So I'm not saying burn beams 1:02:28.160 --> 1:02:32.520 in your house with fire as part of your holiday traditions. 1:02:33.160 --> 1:02:36.040 But yeah, it's interesting to think about all of this. 1:02:36.200 --> 1:02:38.440 And again, this is another one that involves the power 1:02:38.480 --> 1:02:42.640 of fire. The power of the flame to protect us 1:02:42.760 --> 1:02:46.640 against unseen things in the night. By the way, I 1:02:46.720 --> 1:02:49.720 know Brian would want me to pass this along to you. 1:02:50.280 --> 1:02:53.440 If you do encounter something like this in your house, 1:02:53.680 --> 1:02:56.760 strange shoes, a strange item, a witch bottle, and so forth, 1:02:58.040 --> 1:03:01.680 it is very helpful to reach out to people who 1:03:01.720 --> 1:03:05.320 will document it all. And a lot of people do 1:03:05.440 --> 1:03:10.120 reach out to Brian Hoggar themselves. He's on Instagram as 1:03:10.360 --> 1:03:13.520 folk Magic Man. He also has a website, so just 1:03:13.560 --> 1:03:18.160 look him up. It's Brian Hoggart Hoggard and he can 1:03:18.160 --> 1:03:21.640 point you in the right direction if you encounter something 1:03:21.680 --> 1:03:24.280 like this in your home, or email us and I'll 1:03:24.280 --> 1:03:26.520 forward it to him. Happy to do that. 1:03:27.200 --> 1:03:29.280 All right, Well, I think we're out of time for today. 1:03:29.400 --> 1:03:31.880 We've got more to say and to explore about the 1:03:31.920 --> 1:03:34.480 fireplace and the hearth. So join us again on Thursday. 1:03:35.080 --> 1:03:37.280 That's right. In the meantime, we'll remind you that Stuff 1:03:37.280 --> 1:03:39.600 to Blow Your Mind is primarily assigned some culture podcasts 1:03:39.600 --> 1:03:42.560 with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays. On Wednesdays we 1:03:42.600 --> 1:03:44.680 do a short form episode, and on Fridays we set 1:03:44.720 --> 1:03:46.880 aside most serious concerns to just talk about a weird 1:03:46.920 --> 1:03:50.920 film on Weird House Cinema. If you're on Instagram, follow 1:03:50.960 --> 1:03:55.280 us at stbym podcast, and if you were on Letterboxed, 1:03:55.440 --> 1:03:57.720 follow us at Weird House. 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