WEBVTT - Naomi Klein on "Disaster Capitalism" in America 0:00:12.000 --> 0:00:16.239 Hadrilled listeners. It's been a rough couple of weeks. I 0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:19.320 hope everyone is staying safe out there. I'm bringing you 0:00:19.360 --> 0:00:22.520 today an interview that I actually did a few months 0:00:22.560 --> 0:00:26.920 ago with Naomi Klein, the author of Shock Doctrine. I 0:00:26.960 --> 0:00:30.720 had some technical difficulties, but the files and then time 0:00:30.760 --> 0:00:33.280 got away from me, so it's coming a little bit 0:00:33.360 --> 0:00:36.240 later than I expected it to, but it actually completely 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:38.960 fits with the time that we're in right now. We're 0:00:38.960 --> 0:00:41.680 seeing the Shock Doctrine play out in the government and 0:00:41.720 --> 0:00:45.519 the fossil fuel industry's response to both the coronavirus pandemic 0:00:45.720 --> 0:00:48.400 and the protests, and Naomi will talk a little bit 0:00:48.400 --> 0:00:52.599 about what exactly that means and how it reminds her 0:00:52.760 --> 0:00:56.240 of what happened in the aftermath of Katrina. We also 0:00:56.320 --> 0:00:59.160 got into how all of that plays into her thoughts 0:00:59.200 --> 0:01:01.720 on the Green New Dia and in general on the 0:01:01.720 --> 0:01:04.280 climate movement and what needs to be done to move 0:01:04.319 --> 0:01:07.959 it forward. I hope you enjoy our conversation that's coming 0:01:08.040 --> 0:01:10.959 up in just a minute after a message from this 0:01:11.080 --> 0:01:33.000 episode's sponsor, I'm Amy Westervelt and this is Drilled Hei. Naomi, 0:01:33.120 --> 0:01:36.400 thanks so much for being here. Really appreciated. I'm really 0:01:36.400 --> 0:01:38.600 excited to talk to you. So I wanted to start 0:01:38.680 --> 0:01:41.200 with maybe getting a little bit of your kind of 0:01:41.280 --> 0:01:44.240 origin story when it comes to climate. How did you 0:01:44.400 --> 0:01:46.600 find your way to the climate crisis. 0:01:47.880 --> 0:01:50.960 So I'm not somebody who has been writing about the 0:01:51.040 --> 0:01:58.040 climate crisis for my entire career. I began, certainly for 0:01:58.440 --> 0:02:03.840 the first more than decade, focusing on economic injustices human 0:02:03.920 --> 0:02:07.000 rights abuses. When I wrote my first book, No Logo, 0:02:07.040 --> 0:02:11.960 which came out twenty years ago, I was tracking the 0:02:12.080 --> 0:02:18.880 rise of the globalization of labor and this kind of 0:02:18.919 --> 0:02:23.400 newish way of producing the products that fill our lives, 0:02:24.000 --> 0:02:27.760 which used to be sort of focused in a factory 0:02:29.040 --> 0:02:32.000 where the whole production process would take place, and often 0:02:32.080 --> 0:02:36.079 that factory would be relatively close to where the products 0:02:36.080 --> 0:02:40.880 were consumed. We started to see this rage for outsourcing 0:02:40.960 --> 0:02:44.480 in the nineteen nineties where our products were being made 0:02:44.800 --> 0:02:49.080 now through a web of global contractors and subcontractors. And 0:02:49.120 --> 0:02:53.000 so while I was focused on the effects on workers 0:02:53.040 --> 0:02:56.280 and driving down of labor standards, I was certainly aware 0:02:57.080 --> 0:03:01.040 that it was also an incredibly high carbon to produce 0:03:01.280 --> 0:03:03.920 our goods and to live our lives. But it wasn't 0:03:03.919 --> 0:03:06.200 my focus. And the turning point for me was really 0:03:06.280 --> 0:03:08.880 when I was in New Orleans in the aftermath of 0:03:08.960 --> 0:03:13.400 Hurricane Katrina. I wasn't there out of a concern for 0:03:13.800 --> 0:03:16.360 climate change, to be perfectly frank with you, I was 0:03:16.400 --> 0:03:20.480 there because I was working on The Shock Doctrine, which 0:03:20.520 --> 0:03:24.320 is a book about a phenomenon that I called disaster capitalism, 0:03:24.760 --> 0:03:28.680 where in the aftermath of these you know, shocking events 0:03:29.040 --> 0:03:33.480 like wars, economic crises, and increasingly natural disasters, there is 0:03:33.520 --> 0:03:37.200 a kind of corporate feeding frenzy. And that was certainly 0:03:37.240 --> 0:03:39.720 the case in New Orleans after Katrina. So I went 0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:43.920 there because Halliburton was there, and Blackwater was there, and 0:03:43.960 --> 0:03:47.040 Bechtol was there, and the charter school movement was there, 0:03:47.200 --> 0:03:49.760 and all of these private real estate developers were there, 0:03:49.800 --> 0:03:53.280 and it was just like this insane, freeding frenzy. Before 0:03:53.320 --> 0:03:56.800 the water had even you know, drained from the streets, 0:03:57.320 --> 0:03:59.480 there was this talk of how they were going to 0:03:59.520 --> 0:04:04.040 turn New Orleans into this laboratory for a privatized, you know, 0:04:04.520 --> 0:04:07.600 frankly racially cleansed city, and so that's what I was 0:04:07.600 --> 0:04:11.000 focusing on. But when I was there, I definitely had 0:04:11.000 --> 0:04:15.560 this feeling that I was looking at our collective future. 0:04:16.160 --> 0:04:19.279 If we stay on the road we're on, that we 0:04:19.320 --> 0:04:23.000 would be facing a future with more of these kinds 0:04:23.040 --> 0:04:27.880 of climate shocks intersecting with a weak and neglected public sphere, 0:04:28.040 --> 0:04:32.279 overlaid with systems of wide supremacy, and then disaster capitalists 0:04:32.279 --> 0:04:35.080 swooping in with plans to make it all more unequal. 0:04:35.640 --> 0:04:37.320 And that was the moment where I was like, Okay, 0:04:37.360 --> 0:04:41.360 I can't keep deferring this issue and telling myself that, 0:04:41.760 --> 0:04:44.240 you know, the environmentalists are handling it. This is an 0:04:44.279 --> 0:04:47.160 economic rights issue, it's a racial justice issue, it's a 0:04:47.240 --> 0:04:50.320 human rights crisis, and we all need to be involved. 0:04:50.640 --> 0:04:52.599 I feel like that leads into a lot of the 0:04:52.640 --> 0:04:55.760 discussion around the Green New Deal. I'm curious to hear 0:04:55.800 --> 0:04:57.920 your take on how the Green New Deal has been 0:04:58.000 --> 0:05:01.480 discussed in the media so far, and I'm really curious 0:05:01.680 --> 0:05:04.840 to hear what you think about specific policies that can 0:05:04.880 --> 0:05:07.479 be brought forth in the Green New Deal framework. 0:05:07.920 --> 0:05:10.360 Sure. I mean, first of all, I think it's important 0:05:10.400 --> 0:05:13.520 to understand that that pretty much anything can be brought 0:05:13.560 --> 0:05:17.440 forward in a Green New Deal framework because it isn't 0:05:18.200 --> 0:05:21.720 it isn't simply a climate policy it's a framework for 0:05:21.760 --> 0:05:24.480 the next economy that we're going to have, right, It's 0:05:24.520 --> 0:05:28.120 an umbrella that pretty much every issue has to fit within. 0:05:28.320 --> 0:05:31.680 And so you know, it starts with the science and 0:05:32.120 --> 0:05:36.000 the sort of fateful IPCC report that came out in 0:05:36.040 --> 0:05:39.359 twenty nineteen, the one point five report that said we 0:05:39.440 --> 0:05:42.159 need to cut global emissions in half in twelve years 0:05:42.200 --> 0:05:45.880 now eleven, and that in order to do so it 0:05:45.920 --> 0:05:52.160 would require transformation of pretty much every aspect of society. 0:05:52.200 --> 0:05:55.280 I mean, that's their words, right, So if we need 0:05:55.320 --> 0:06:00.800 to transform housing, building, construction, transportation, energy, agri culture, and 0:06:00.839 --> 0:06:03.560 on and on and on, why wouldn't we, at the 0:06:03.600 --> 0:06:06.479 same time as we transform it to get it to 0:06:07.560 --> 0:06:11.200 zero emissions, transform it to make it a hell of 0:06:11.279 --> 0:06:15.440 a lot fairer on every front. Because the climate crisis 0:06:15.440 --> 0:06:18.360 isn't the only crisis that we face. We face multiple, 0:06:18.400 --> 0:06:21.080 overlapping and intersecting crisis. So that's the way I see, 0:06:21.360 --> 0:06:23.440 you know, the Green New Deal, and I think we 0:06:23.480 --> 0:06:26.560 should think about it as expansively as possible and not 0:06:26.640 --> 0:06:28.920 be afraid of that, because if you're talking about new 0:06:28.960 --> 0:06:32.560 ways to live, you shouldn't be afraid to be making connections. 0:06:32.800 --> 0:06:35.960 Most of my critiques of the Green New Deal, and 0:06:36.000 --> 0:06:37.599 I have my own have to do with things that 0:06:37.640 --> 0:06:40.120 are left out as opposed to the way it's so 0:06:40.320 --> 0:06:43.840 often discussed in the in the you know, you asked 0:06:43.839 --> 0:06:47.320 about media coverage, you know, I'd say that it's been really, 0:06:47.360 --> 0:06:51.240 really bad in the sense that we have right wing media. 0:06:51.720 --> 0:06:53.800 You know, we have the sort of Fox and the 0:06:53.920 --> 0:06:58.520 echo chamber around it just lying about it, but lying 0:06:58.520 --> 0:07:01.440 about it a lot like talking about it all the time, 0:07:01.680 --> 0:07:09.920 right and completely misrepresenting it shamelessly right and just scaring 0:07:10.120 --> 0:07:14.000 their viewers and listeners and readers, depending on the media outlet, 0:07:14.240 --> 0:07:16.520 about how it is all going to be about loss, right, 0:07:16.920 --> 0:07:19.360 It is all about people taking things away from you 0:07:19.440 --> 0:07:22.560 and making your life crappy. And the reason why they 0:07:22.600 --> 0:07:25.200 do that is because this has been a very successful 0:07:25.840 --> 0:07:31.040 way to defeat climate policies in the past, and they 0:07:31.600 --> 0:07:36.119 know that. Actually, over the past couple of decades, many 0:07:36.160 --> 0:07:41.400 of the ways that states and national governments did try 0:07:41.440 --> 0:07:45.760 to tackle the climate crisis within a very sort of 0:07:45.960 --> 0:07:51.120 free market neoliberal framework did actually increase the burdens on 0:07:51.200 --> 0:07:55.120 working people. You had renewable energy plans that didn't make 0:07:55.160 --> 0:08:00.360 sure that low income consumers didn't face increases in their 0:08:00.400 --> 0:08:04.720 electricity bills. In France, you had, you know, Emmanuel McCall 0:08:04.880 --> 0:08:08.040 introducing a fuel tax at the same time as he's 0:08:08.040 --> 0:08:12.720 handing out tax breaks for millionaires and corporations, at the 0:08:12.720 --> 0:08:15.000 same time as he's attacking trade unions, at the same 0:08:15.040 --> 0:08:18.800 time as he's imposing austerity policies, all of which is 0:08:18.840 --> 0:08:22.920 making life for workers harder. And then and then he says, oh, 0:08:23.000 --> 0:08:25.120 and the way to solve climate change is just for 0:08:25.160 --> 0:08:28.600 you all to pay more for gas. And so this message, 0:08:28.920 --> 0:08:32.000 you know that that Fox is pounding away on, you know, 0:08:32.440 --> 0:08:34.839 responding to climate change is going to make your lives harder, 0:08:34.960 --> 0:08:38.240 has been a really successful strategy all around the world 0:08:38.320 --> 0:08:42.160 in order to beat back neoliberal climate policies. They don't 0:08:42.200 --> 0:08:44.160 talk about all the jobs that's that are going to 0:08:44.160 --> 0:08:47.880 be created. They don't talk about the protections for union 0:08:48.000 --> 0:08:52.160 jobs and and and the guarantees that workers will maintain 0:08:52.200 --> 0:08:54.760 their salary levels. They just talk about all the things 0:08:54.760 --> 0:08:57.319 you're going to lose. And the problem is that if 0:08:57.320 --> 0:09:01.839 you turn on CNN or NBC, you aren't getting a 0:09:01.920 --> 0:09:04.560 corrective to that. You mainly aren't hearing about the Green 0:09:04.559 --> 0:09:07.920 New Deal at all. And the main way that it's 0:09:07.920 --> 0:09:11.199 been covered in like sort of serious you know, liberal 0:09:11.559 --> 0:09:16.040 print media has been to sort of soberly claim in 0:09:16.120 --> 0:09:21.040 our bed after our beed that it's not pragmatic, it's 0:09:21.080 --> 0:09:24.320 not realistic, because you know, it attaches all of these 0:09:24.320 --> 0:09:27.400 things that are unrelated, like healthcare and childcare and a 0:09:27.480 --> 0:09:31.600 job's guarantee without making any effort to figure out how 0:09:31.600 --> 0:09:34.120 they might be connected, right, And so yeah, it's been 0:09:34.160 --> 0:09:36.800 a big fail because you've got that, you've got the lies, 0:09:37.240 --> 0:09:39.440 which we shouldn't be surprised by and which we will 0:09:39.440 --> 0:09:43.360 continue to see, and you don't have real similarly kind 0:09:43.400 --> 0:09:46.760 of high profile attempts to debunk those lies. 0:09:47.240 --> 0:09:50.520 I know, it's so interesting to hear so called liberal 0:09:50.600 --> 0:09:54.720 media talking about how you can't solve all the social 0:09:54.760 --> 0:10:01.080 problems and also just not understanding the fact that climate 0:10:01.440 --> 0:10:05.559 really does intersect with all these other justice issues and. 0:10:05.559 --> 0:10:09.000 Being very explicit about it, right, like we can't afford 0:10:09.000 --> 0:10:10.600 to deal with justice now. And it hasn't just been 0:10:10.640 --> 0:10:12.880 The New York Times. Michael Mann wrote that in Nature, 0:10:13.400 --> 0:10:17.240 it's interesting that there's being so explicit about like you're 0:10:17.280 --> 0:10:20.640 weighing us down by making this about justice. We don't 0:10:20.679 --> 0:10:23.240 have time, and I mean there's a couple of things 0:10:23.280 --> 0:10:25.840 about it. Like I mean, first of all, if that's true, 0:10:25.960 --> 0:10:30.000 give us an example of a narrow carbon based approach 0:10:30.200 --> 0:10:35.040 to the climate crisis that has worked at the speed 0:10:35.040 --> 0:10:37.880 and scale that we need, right because what we're actually 0:10:37.920 --> 0:10:42.359 seeing is when you introduce only these market based approaches 0:10:42.520 --> 0:10:45.439 like a carbon tax or cap and trade, they often 0:10:45.480 --> 0:10:48.600 spark a popular backlash and you lose the policies. I mean, 0:10:48.640 --> 0:10:51.520 that's what happened in France that Colin was forced to 0:10:51.559 --> 0:10:56.320 repeal his inadequate gas tax in the face of this 0:10:56.440 --> 0:10:59.839 huge popular backlash. I'm Canadian. I'm living in the States 0:10:59.880 --> 0:11:03.040 now now, but in Ontario we had a liberal government 0:11:03.280 --> 0:11:07.920 that introduced carbon policies that were widely perceived to have 0:11:08.000 --> 0:11:10.160 increased the price of energy. And there are big debates 0:11:10.200 --> 0:11:12.320 about whether that's true and why that is, and if 0:11:12.320 --> 0:11:15.160 it's really about the renewables push, or whether it's about 0:11:15.200 --> 0:11:18.760 various boondoggles that they got themselves in Meshtin. But the 0:11:18.840 --> 0:11:21.200 point is is that it was perceived to be just 0:11:21.440 --> 0:11:25.000 increasing the cost of living. And now we have a 0:11:25.080 --> 0:11:28.640 right wing populist government whose very first act in office 0:11:28.679 --> 0:11:31.920 was to repeal it, right. So you know, you have 0:11:31.960 --> 0:11:34.240 a lot of people posing as you know, very very 0:11:34.280 --> 0:11:37.120 serious people who know how to get things done, but 0:11:37.200 --> 0:11:39.680 if you look at the track record, it doesn't get 0:11:39.679 --> 0:11:45.000 the job done. Whereas linking climate policies with actually much 0:11:45.160 --> 0:11:48.920 more popular policies like medicare for all and job creation 0:11:49.240 --> 0:11:53.360 and you know, protecting labor rights that hasn't been tried, 0:11:53.760 --> 0:11:56.320 you know, and it's certainly worth a try because it 0:11:56.400 --> 0:11:57.280 might actually work. 0:11:57.480 --> 0:12:00.120 I know, I don't understand why people think that the 0:12:00.160 --> 0:12:03.720 same approach that we've been trying for thirty years, an 0:12:03.720 --> 0:12:06.800 approach that hasn't worked, is going to be the thing 0:12:07.240 --> 0:12:08.560 that solves this problem. 0:12:08.720 --> 0:12:11.480 You know. It also kind of feels like the folks 0:12:11.520 --> 0:12:13.839 who are making these arguments need to spend a little 0:12:13.840 --> 0:12:16.920 bit more time on the ground in disaster zones because 0:12:16.920 --> 0:12:18.840 you know, as a journalist like I come to this 0:12:19.000 --> 0:12:23.880 from just being in the places, right, and there's just 0:12:24.000 --> 0:12:27.320 no way to just say with a straight face, like 0:12:27.400 --> 0:12:30.600 what does healthcare have to do with climate? You know, 0:12:31.440 --> 0:12:33.960 unless you have never been in a disaster zone, you know, 0:12:34.640 --> 0:12:37.120 every and you know, I admit, you know, I run 0:12:37.160 --> 0:12:39.280 to the fire. That's what I do as a journalist. 0:12:39.880 --> 0:12:42.200 And you know, whether it's New Orleans, you know, whether 0:12:42.360 --> 0:12:46.840 after Katrina, whether it's New York after Sandy, whether it 0:12:47.120 --> 0:12:51.000 is Puerto Rico after Maria. In all of these cases, 0:12:51.440 --> 0:12:55.560 what you see is a total breakdown of the healthcare sector. Right. 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:58.560 We know what killed people post Maria, and it wasn't 0:12:58.600 --> 0:13:01.440 falling debris. It was and this is what all the 0:13:01.440 --> 0:13:03.920 research shows, right, it was the people who couldn't plug 0:13:03.960 --> 0:13:07.880 in their oxygen machines and their dialysis machines. And that 0:13:08.040 --> 0:13:12.319 you know that the intersecting system collapse of the electricity 0:13:12.320 --> 0:13:14.719 system and the healthcare system, right that had both been 0:13:14.800 --> 0:13:19.960 systematically underfunded, partially privatized, and just left in such a 0:13:20.000 --> 0:13:23.600 state of decay that when the winds blew, the whole 0:13:23.640 --> 0:13:25.880 thing collapsed. And then of course you have all these 0:13:25.920 --> 0:13:28.360 interests that don't want to get them back up and running. 0:13:28.720 --> 0:13:31.920 You know, Vcus, the only hospital in Vicus, is still 0:13:31.960 --> 0:13:35.720 closed two years after Maria. So people are still dying 0:13:35.920 --> 0:13:37.960 because of it. And this is why it just I 0:13:38.040 --> 0:13:41.280 just find it maddening that we that we would not 0:13:41.440 --> 0:13:45.520 see the connections. We had an event just at Rutgers 0:13:45.520 --> 0:13:48.079 where I teach called care workers, climate work. 0:13:48.000 --> 0:13:49.920 I wanted to ask you about that because I saw 0:13:49.960 --> 0:13:52.640 the announcement for it, and I was really excited to 0:13:52.720 --> 0:13:55.920 see it because I've written for a long time about 0:13:55.960 --> 0:13:58.520 both gender and climate, which a lot of times people 0:13:58.600 --> 0:14:01.600 don't understand how the those things intersect in a really 0:14:01.640 --> 0:14:04.439 basic way. But then I would often have editors kind 0:14:04.440 --> 0:14:06.960 of ask, you know, what does care work have to 0:14:06.960 --> 0:14:09.520 do with climate staff? And it was really enjoying, so 0:14:09.679 --> 0:14:10.760 happy to see this event. 0:14:10.960 --> 0:14:16.079 It's so annoying because these you know, nurses, home care workers, teachers, 0:14:16.440 --> 0:14:20.120 become first responders in the midst of disasters, right, you know, 0:14:20.160 --> 0:14:25.320 whether it's driving their students on school buses through wildfires 0:14:25.440 --> 0:14:29.480 in Alberta or California, or whether it's homecare workers who 0:14:29.560 --> 0:14:32.960 have died in fires with their patients who they refuse 0:14:33.080 --> 0:14:35.800 to abandon. I mean, there's so many examples of this. 0:14:35.920 --> 0:14:39.240 But it's also low carbon work. It doesn't it doesn't 0:14:39.280 --> 0:14:41.320 take a lot of carbon to just take care of 0:14:41.360 --> 0:14:44.400 each other. These are sectors where we can expand and 0:14:44.440 --> 0:14:48.120 this is this is a really important response to the 0:14:48.160 --> 0:14:50.880 Fox News talking point of it's all going to be pain, 0:14:50.960 --> 0:14:53.520 it's all going to be suffering, right, Like, let's identify 0:14:53.560 --> 0:14:57.440 the parts of our economy that we can have abundance in, right, 0:14:57.560 --> 0:15:00.640 and where we can make sure that these jobs which 0:15:00.640 --> 0:15:04.600 have been systematically devalued because it's women's work, because it's 0:15:04.640 --> 0:15:08.400 work overwhelmingly done by immigrant women, how about if we 0:15:08.440 --> 0:15:12.560 make them good jobs, right. And so that was just 0:15:12.600 --> 0:15:16.120 a really fruitful discussion among teachers and nurses and home 0:15:16.160 --> 0:15:22.120 care workers and disability rights advocates, and it was abundantly 0:15:22.200 --> 0:15:25.160 clear that, of course they are, they're already on the 0:15:25.160 --> 0:15:27.840 front lines of the climate crisis. You know what, We've 0:15:27.880 --> 0:15:33.040 got schools that in this country that are having to 0:15:33.080 --> 0:15:36.160 send kids home because they're so hot and they're failing. 0:15:36.200 --> 0:15:39.960 Infrastructure can't cope with the heat. There's no air circulation, 0:15:40.440 --> 0:15:44.040 they're ac either doesn't work, you know, or doesn't exist. 0:15:44.680 --> 0:15:47.720 And in some of the schools in communities of color, 0:15:48.080 --> 0:15:50.840 there's lead in the water, so you know, you've got 0:15:50.880 --> 0:15:55.080 students who are choosing between dehydration and getting poisoned from 0:15:55.160 --> 0:15:59.520 drinking from the water fountain. Right, And this, of course, 0:15:59.600 --> 0:16:02.480 schools should be at the center, you know, of the 0:16:02.520 --> 0:16:05.760 Green New Deal. And at the end of the panel, 0:16:05.800 --> 0:16:08.000 I just asked, you know, the everybody, I said you know, 0:16:08.480 --> 0:16:11.960 it seems so clear that this is connected. Why do 0:16:12.040 --> 0:16:15.200 you think you haven't been included in so many of 0:16:15.200 --> 0:16:17.520 the discussions around the Green New Deal, And several of 0:16:17.520 --> 0:16:19.720 the speakers said this was the first time anyone asked 0:16:19.720 --> 0:16:22.280 them to reflect on it or to share ideas, and 0:16:22.320 --> 0:16:26.600 they all have ideas about how to green their various sectors. Wow. 0:16:26.960 --> 0:16:29.760 And Emily Comer, who's one of the speakers, she and 0:16:29.840 --> 0:16:31.920 she's you know, kind of a legend because she led 0:16:31.960 --> 0:16:36.000 the West Virginia teacher strikee you know, in red state 0:16:36.400 --> 0:16:40.520 West Virginia coal country, right, connected the dots between the 0:16:40.560 --> 0:16:43.320 fact that the oil and gas sector, you know, they 0:16:43.320 --> 0:16:45.720 don't pay their taxes, to the fact that their schools 0:16:45.760 --> 0:16:48.440 were falling apart, and said pay your taxes. You know. 0:16:48.480 --> 0:16:51.400 Emily said, you know, we're left out because it's women's work. 0:16:52.360 --> 0:16:55.000 And you know, they also pointed out that the original 0:16:55.040 --> 0:16:59.160 New Deal excluded domestic workers because it was overwhelmingly black 0:16:59.200 --> 0:17:01.800 women doing that work and we just can't do this again. 0:17:02.040 --> 0:17:07.000 Exactly. Yes, I'm curious, just as someone who's watched corporations 0:17:07.320 --> 0:17:10.760 kind of behave worse and worse over the years, what 0:17:10.840 --> 0:17:13.200 you think needs to be done with the fossil fuel 0:17:13.200 --> 0:17:17.000 industry in order to implement some of the ideas around 0:17:17.160 --> 0:17:18.040 the Green New Deal. 0:17:18.880 --> 0:17:22.199 Yeah, I mean, obviously, you know and your listeners know 0:17:22.359 --> 0:17:25.240 that we have a really big problem with the fact 0:17:25.320 --> 0:17:33.160 that their business model is incompatible with any definition of 0:17:33.240 --> 0:17:37.720 an organized civilization because they will lead us straight to 0:17:37.880 --> 0:17:41.520 four to six degrees of warming, and they're quite open 0:17:41.520 --> 0:17:44.399 about that. They that they see a future of business 0:17:44.440 --> 0:17:48.040 as usual for themselves and even increased demands. They are 0:17:48.119 --> 0:17:51.640 laughing at non binding targets set at the United Nations. 0:17:52.200 --> 0:17:54.160 They think they can get around it. And the reason 0:17:54.200 --> 0:17:56.080 they think they can get around it is because of 0:17:56.119 --> 0:17:59.000 all the money they have. This is a very very 0:17:59.040 --> 0:18:04.520 profitable business model that requires constant expansion of the fossil 0:18:04.520 --> 0:18:07.280 fuel frontier in order to not go into crisis. They have, 0:18:07.800 --> 0:18:11.240 you know, what's called the reserve replacement ratio that to 0:18:11.280 --> 0:18:14.520 worry about, which is telling their investors that they have 0:18:14.800 --> 0:18:17.760 more in reserve than they have in production, or at 0:18:17.840 --> 0:18:21.439 least as much. And given that, what we know is 0:18:21.440 --> 0:18:24.000 that if we are to have any hope of keeping 0:18:24.280 --> 0:18:27.679 warming below one point five degrees celsius, we need a 0:18:27.760 --> 0:18:32.840 managed decline of existing production. We just have a fundamental 0:18:33.119 --> 0:18:38.280 incompatibility of what these businesses need to not go into 0:18:38.320 --> 0:18:41.560 crisis and what we as a species need to not 0:18:41.760 --> 0:18:47.879 spiral into crisis. It's not resolvable. And that's why the 0:18:48.000 --> 0:18:52.159 strategy of to create a crisis, a market crisis for 0:18:52.200 --> 0:18:56.760 these companies has has been very important. And that's what 0:18:56.800 --> 0:19:00.639 the fossil fuel devestment movement has been about. But it's like, 0:19:00.720 --> 0:19:03.160 to me, the fossil field investment movement has never been 0:19:03.200 --> 0:19:05.800 about an idea that we were going to actually kind 0:19:05.800 --> 0:19:09.160 of bankrupt them just by getting people to pull their funds. 0:19:09.200 --> 0:19:10.800 And you know, I've said this to students over the 0:19:10.880 --> 0:19:13.680 years when I go to campuses and meet a wonderful 0:19:13.760 --> 0:19:17.960 group of divestment, you know, a great fossil fueld divestment 0:19:18.000 --> 0:19:21.080 group who's been at it for you know, four years, 0:19:21.119 --> 0:19:23.800 and their university won't just won't listen to them and 0:19:24.480 --> 0:19:28.240 is completely intransigent. And there's many cases like Harvard, and 0:19:28.280 --> 0:19:30.800 I mean, there's lots of cases where it's been really tough, right, 0:19:31.480 --> 0:19:34.120 And what I always say to them is you, yeah, 0:19:34.160 --> 0:19:37.040 we want your university to divest. Like it is good 0:19:37.520 --> 0:19:40.119 when that happens, and it's great that the UC system 0:19:40.280 --> 0:19:43.240 just just just announced finally after seven years, that they're 0:19:43.280 --> 0:19:44.480 going to divest. 0:19:44.720 --> 0:19:46.480 Yeah, that's a huge win. 0:19:47.119 --> 0:19:49.080 But you know what I say to them is every 0:19:49.119 --> 0:19:52.399 time you go out there and make the argument that 0:19:52.520 --> 0:19:56.840 this is a rogue business, that you're basically turning them 0:19:56.840 --> 0:20:00.800 into a kind of a pariah the way tobacco companies were. 0:20:01.160 --> 0:20:04.679 You are helping to create the political space that we 0:20:04.840 --> 0:20:08.879 need to tax them, increase their royalties, and if they 0:20:08.920 --> 0:20:13.600 really resist us, nationalize them. Because making that argument for 0:20:13.680 --> 0:20:19.520 why there is a fundamental incompatibility between our health and theirs, right, 0:20:19.640 --> 0:20:22.760 the more you create that political space. And I think 0:20:22.760 --> 0:20:25.359 it's because so many young people have been out making 0:20:25.359 --> 0:20:29.320 that argument that they've also been able to pivot to 0:20:30.080 --> 0:20:33.679 the demand that politicians not take their money right, and 0:20:33.720 --> 0:20:35.760 many many of the people who are doing that now 0:20:35.760 --> 0:20:39.600 through the Sunrise movement started in the Fossil Fueld divestment movement. 0:20:39.680 --> 0:20:42.200 You know, there's a lot of folks who's who as 0:20:42.320 --> 0:20:46.359 university activists. Varshy Precaucious one of them, at Will Lawrence 0:20:46.440 --> 0:20:47.960 is another of them. You know, these are some of 0:20:48.000 --> 0:20:50.800 the co founders of Sunrise. They started in the Fossil 0:20:50.840 --> 0:20:55.080 fueld divestment movement, and now they're focusing on getting politicians 0:20:55.119 --> 0:20:58.000 not to take their money. And that's really significant because 0:20:58.000 --> 0:21:00.800 if we can get politicians to divest, it's going to 0:21:00.840 --> 0:21:04.000 be a lot more likely that they are willing to 0:21:04.040 --> 0:21:07.080 propose the policies that we actually need instead of you know, 0:21:07.200 --> 0:21:10.959 fake solutions that that are doing things like presenting natural 0:21:11.280 --> 0:21:13.879 gases a bridge fuel. The other side of it is 0:21:13.880 --> 0:21:17.439 like fossil fuel companies and all of their excess cash 0:21:17.920 --> 0:21:22.200 from their from their illegitimate business model. They've always had 0:21:22.240 --> 0:21:24.880 the carrot and the stick, right, Like the carrot is 0:21:25.520 --> 0:21:31.240 we will fund your campaign and help you directly if 0:21:31.240 --> 0:21:34.600 you give us the policies that we want, right, and 0:21:35.359 --> 0:21:39.400 the stick is if you don't, we will take out 0:21:39.480 --> 0:21:42.240 all of these attack ads and destroy you and fund 0:21:42.280 --> 0:21:47.840 your opponent. Right. And so the getting Democrats to divest 0:21:48.359 --> 0:21:53.440 and getting Democratic politicians to divest deals with the carrot, right, 0:21:53.840 --> 0:21:56.520 But it doesn't deal with the stick, because they can 0:21:56.680 --> 0:21:59.040 still Even if you get politicians not to take their 0:21:59.080 --> 0:22:03.199 money and they start being willing to entertain real climate 0:22:03.240 --> 0:22:05.880 policies like a Green New Deal and bands on fracking 0:22:05.960 --> 0:22:08.480 and so on, they're still going to be afraid that 0:22:08.560 --> 0:22:13.360 these companies can spend unlimited funds buying TV ads attacking them. 0:22:13.400 --> 0:22:16.120 And that's where Amy, your work's been so important, right, 0:22:16.480 --> 0:22:19.560 because we need to really, really really talk about media 0:22:19.760 --> 0:22:22.639 divesting because you know, in the same way that we 0:22:22.640 --> 0:22:25.680 don't turn it on CNN and see ads for Marlbros, 0:22:26.320 --> 0:22:29.360 why should we turn on CNN and see ads for Exxon? 0:22:29.760 --> 0:22:32.840 And if we can cut off these two streams, because 0:22:32.880 --> 0:22:35.400 we have in fact turned this into a pariah industry, 0:22:35.720 --> 0:22:39.639 you know, the streams going directly to politicians and the 0:22:39.680 --> 0:22:43.040 streams that allow them to buy the attack ads, I 0:22:43.080 --> 0:22:48.040 actually think we buy ourselves some significant policy oxygen. 0:22:47.600 --> 0:22:50.440 Right, Thank you. We've been working on that a lot, 0:22:50.760 --> 0:22:54.280 this idea of pushing media to take some responsibility here 0:22:54.400 --> 0:22:58.000 for what we might be enabling, especially outlets that go 0:22:58.119 --> 0:23:01.960 the extra step and actually make oil companies ads for them. 0:23:02.280 --> 0:23:04.760 The thing I think people need to remember is that 0:23:04.920 --> 0:23:07.679 these companies are not advertising a product. It's not the 0:23:07.720 --> 0:23:12.240 same as other types of advertising. They're advertising ideas. 0:23:12.000 --> 0:23:14.760 You know. And this first started driving me nuts around 0:23:14.960 --> 0:23:18.000 the Keystone Fight, where we would have a hell of 0:23:18.040 --> 0:23:23.160 a time getting on MSNBC, you know, for two minutes 0:23:23.280 --> 0:23:26.639 to explain why we were opposed to the pipeline, and 0:23:26.720 --> 0:23:29.800 when you would manage to do it, you know, and 0:23:29.840 --> 0:23:31.879 it would just be so we get we got so 0:23:32.080 --> 0:23:34.959 little airtime to make the case against Keystone, but then 0:23:35.000 --> 0:23:38.359 it would just always be followed by much longer you know, 0:23:38.560 --> 0:23:41.679 ex on ahead. Well, mostly they're advertising the opposite of 0:23:41.720 --> 0:23:45.159 their product, right, Like they're advertising like wind turbines and 0:23:45.480 --> 0:23:47.800 solar powers that are like point so solar powers that 0:23:47.840 --> 0:23:49.480 are point three percent of their businesses. 0:23:49.880 --> 0:23:51.480