1 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:16,239 Speaker 1: Hadrilled listeners. It's been a rough couple of weeks. I 2 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 1: hope everyone is staying safe out there. I'm bringing you 3 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:22,520 Speaker 1: today an interview that I actually did a few months 4 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 1: ago with Naomi Klein, the author of Shock Doctrine. I 5 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 1: had some technical difficulties, but the files and then time 6 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:33,280 Speaker 1: got away from me, so it's coming a little bit 7 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:36,240 Speaker 1: later than I expected it to, but it actually completely 8 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:38,960 Speaker 1: fits with the time that we're in right now. We're 9 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:41,680 Speaker 1: seeing the Shock Doctrine play out in the government and 10 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:45,519 Speaker 1: the fossil fuel industry's response to both the coronavirus pandemic 11 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 1: and the protests, and Naomi will talk a little bit 12 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:52,599 Speaker 1: about what exactly that means and how it reminds her 13 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 1: of what happened in the aftermath of Katrina. We also 14 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 1: got into how all of that plays into her thoughts 15 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:01,720 Speaker 1: on the Green New Dia and in general on the 16 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 1: climate movement and what needs to be done to move 17 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:07,959 Speaker 1: it forward. I hope you enjoy our conversation that's coming 18 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:10,959 Speaker 1: up in just a minute after a message from this 19 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 1: episode's sponsor, I'm Amy Westervelt and this is Drilled Hei. Naomi, 20 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:36,400 Speaker 1: thanks so much for being here. Really appreciated. I'm really 21 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 1: excited to talk to you. So I wanted to start 22 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:41,200 Speaker 1: with maybe getting a little bit of your kind of 23 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 1: origin story when it comes to climate. How did you 24 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 1: find your way to the climate crisis. 25 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 2: So I'm not somebody who has been writing about the 26 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 2: climate crisis for my entire career. I began, certainly for 27 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 2: the first more than decade, focusing on economic injustices human 28 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 2: rights abuses. When I wrote my first book, No Logo, 29 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:11,960 Speaker 2: which came out twenty years ago, I was tracking the 30 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 2: rise of the globalization of labor and this kind of 31 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:23,400 Speaker 2: newish way of producing the products that fill our lives, 32 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 2: which used to be sort of focused in a factory 33 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 2: where the whole production process would take place, and often 34 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:36,079 Speaker 2: that factory would be relatively close to where the products 35 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 2: were consumed. We started to see this rage for outsourcing 36 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 2: in the nineteen nineties where our products were being made 37 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:49,080 Speaker 2: now through a web of global contractors and subcontractors. And 38 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 2: so while I was focused on the effects on workers 39 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 2: and driving down of labor standards, I was certainly aware 40 00:02:57,080 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 2: that it was also an incredibly high carbon to produce 41 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:03,920 Speaker 2: our goods and to live our lives. But it wasn't 42 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 2: my focus. And the turning point for me was really 43 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 2: when I was in New Orleans in the aftermath of 44 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 2: Hurricane Katrina. I wasn't there out of a concern for 45 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:16,360 Speaker 2: climate change, to be perfectly frank with you, I was 46 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 2: there because I was working on The Shock Doctrine, which 47 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 2: is a book about a phenomenon that I called disaster capitalism, 48 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:28,680 Speaker 2: where in the aftermath of these you know, shocking events 49 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 2: like wars, economic crises, and increasingly natural disasters, there is 50 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 2: a kind of corporate feeding frenzy. And that was certainly 51 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 2: the case in New Orleans after Katrina. So I went 52 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 2: there because Halliburton was there, and Blackwater was there, and 53 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 2: Bechtol was there, and the charter school movement was there, 54 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 2: and all of these private real estate developers were there, 55 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 2: and it was just like this insane, freeding frenzy. Before 56 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 2: the water had even you know, drained from the streets, 57 00:03:57,320 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 2: there was this talk of how they were going to 58 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:04,040 Speaker 2: turn New Orleans into this laboratory for a privatized, you know, 59 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 2: frankly racially cleansed city, and so that's what I was 60 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 2: focusing on. But when I was there, I definitely had 61 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 2: this feeling that I was looking at our collective future. 62 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:19,279 Speaker 2: If we stay on the road we're on, that we 63 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 2: would be facing a future with more of these kinds 64 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 2: of climate shocks intersecting with a weak and neglected public sphere, 65 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:32,279 Speaker 2: overlaid with systems of wide supremacy, and then disaster capitalists 66 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 2: swooping in with plans to make it all more unequal. 67 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 2: And that was the moment where I was like, Okay, 68 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:41,360 Speaker 2: I can't keep deferring this issue and telling myself that, 69 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 2: you know, the environmentalists are handling it. This is an 70 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:47,160 Speaker 2: economic rights issue, it's a racial justice issue, it's a 71 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 2: human rights crisis, and we all need to be involved. 72 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:52,599 Speaker 1: I feel like that leads into a lot of the 73 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 1: discussion around the Green New Deal. I'm curious to hear 74 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:57,920 Speaker 1: your take on how the Green New Deal has been 75 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:01,480 Speaker 1: discussed in the media so far, and I'm really curious 76 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:04,840 Speaker 1: to hear what you think about specific policies that can 77 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:07,479 Speaker 1: be brought forth in the Green New Deal framework. 78 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:10,360 Speaker 2: Sure. I mean, first of all, I think it's important 79 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 2: to understand that that pretty much anything can be brought 80 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 2: forward in a Green New Deal framework because it isn't 81 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:21,720 Speaker 2: it isn't simply a climate policy it's a framework for 82 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:24,480 Speaker 2: the next economy that we're going to have, right, It's 83 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 2: an umbrella that pretty much every issue has to fit within. 84 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:31,680 Speaker 2: And so you know, it starts with the science and 85 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 2: the sort of fateful IPCC report that came out in 86 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:39,359 Speaker 2: twenty nineteen, the one point five report that said we 87 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:42,159 Speaker 2: need to cut global emissions in half in twelve years 88 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 2: now eleven, and that in order to do so it 89 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:52,160 Speaker 2: would require transformation of pretty much every aspect of society. 90 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:55,280 Speaker 2: I mean, that's their words, right, So if we need 91 00:05:55,320 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 2: to transform housing, building, construction, transportation, energy, agri culture, and 92 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:03,560 Speaker 2: on and on and on, why wouldn't we, at the 93 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:06,479 Speaker 2: same time as we transform it to get it to 94 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 2: zero emissions, transform it to make it a hell of 95 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 2: a lot fairer on every front. Because the climate crisis 96 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:18,360 Speaker 2: isn't the only crisis that we face. We face multiple, 97 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 2: overlapping and intersecting crisis. So that's the way I see, 98 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 2: you know, the Green New Deal, and I think we 99 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 2: should think about it as expansively as possible and not 100 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:28,920 Speaker 2: be afraid of that, because if you're talking about new 101 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 2: ways to live, you shouldn't be afraid to be making connections. 102 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 2: Most of my critiques of the Green New Deal, and 103 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:37,599 Speaker 2: I have my own have to do with things that 104 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 2: are left out as opposed to the way it's so 105 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:43,840 Speaker 2: often discussed in the in the you know, you asked 106 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 2: about media coverage, you know, I'd say that it's been really, 107 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:51,240 Speaker 2: really bad in the sense that we have right wing media. 108 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:53,800 Speaker 2: You know, we have the sort of Fox and the 109 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 2: echo chamber around it just lying about it, but lying 110 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:01,440 Speaker 2: about it a lot like talking about it all the time, 111 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 2: right and completely misrepresenting it shamelessly right and just scaring 112 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 2: their viewers and listeners and readers, depending on the media outlet, 113 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 2: about how it is all going to be about loss, right, 114 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 2: It is all about people taking things away from you 115 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 2: and making your life crappy. And the reason why they 116 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 2: do that is because this has been a very successful 117 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 2: way to defeat climate policies in the past, and they 118 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:36,119 Speaker 2: know that. Actually, over the past couple of decades, many 119 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 2: of the ways that states and national governments did try 120 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 2: to tackle the climate crisis within a very sort of 121 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 2: free market neoliberal framework did actually increase the burdens on 122 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 2: working people. You had renewable energy plans that didn't make 123 00:07:55,160 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 2: sure that low income consumers didn't face increases in their 124 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 2: electricity bills. In France, you had, you know, Emmanuel McCall 125 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 2: introducing a fuel tax at the same time as he's 126 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 2: handing out tax breaks for millionaires and corporations, at the 127 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 2: same time as he's attacking trade unions, at the same 128 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 2: time as he's imposing austerity policies, all of which is 129 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 2: making life for workers harder. And then and then he says, oh, 130 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 2: and the way to solve climate change is just for 131 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 2: you all to pay more for gas. And so this message, 132 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 2: you know that that Fox is pounding away on, you know, 133 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:34,839 Speaker 2: responding to climate change is going to make your lives harder, 134 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 2: has been a really successful strategy all around the world 135 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 2: in order to beat back neoliberal climate policies. They don't 136 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 2: talk about all the jobs that's that are going to 137 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 2: be created. They don't talk about the protections for union 138 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 2: jobs and and and the guarantees that workers will maintain 139 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 2: their salary levels. They just talk about all the things 140 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:57,319 Speaker 2: you're going to lose. And the problem is that if 141 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:01,839 Speaker 2: you turn on CNN or NBC, you aren't getting a 142 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:04,560 Speaker 2: corrective to that. You mainly aren't hearing about the Green 143 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 2: New Deal at all. And the main way that it's 144 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:11,199 Speaker 2: been covered in like sort of serious you know, liberal 145 00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 2: print media has been to sort of soberly claim in 146 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 2: our bed after our beed that it's not pragmatic, it's 147 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:24,320 Speaker 2: not realistic, because you know, it attaches all of these 148 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 2: things that are unrelated, like healthcare and childcare and a 149 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 2: job's guarantee without making any effort to figure out how 150 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 2: they might be connected, right, And so yeah, it's been 151 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 2: a big fail because you've got that, you've got the lies, 152 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:39,440 Speaker 2: which we shouldn't be surprised by and which we will 153 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:43,360 Speaker 2: continue to see, and you don't have real similarly kind 154 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 2: of high profile attempts to debunk those lies. 155 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 1: I know, it's so interesting to hear so called liberal 156 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:54,720 Speaker 1: media talking about how you can't solve all the social 157 00:09:54,760 --> 00:10:01,080 Speaker 1: problems and also just not understanding the fact that climate 158 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:05,559 Speaker 1: really does intersect with all these other justice issues and. 159 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 2: Being very explicit about it, right, like we can't afford 160 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 2: to deal with justice now. And it hasn't just been 161 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 2: The New York Times. Michael Mann wrote that in Nature, 162 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 2: it's interesting that there's being so explicit about like you're 163 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:20,640 Speaker 2: weighing us down by making this about justice. We don't 164 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 2: have time, and I mean there's a couple of things 165 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:25,840 Speaker 2: about it. Like I mean, first of all, if that's true, 166 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 2: give us an example of a narrow carbon based approach 167 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 2: to the climate crisis that has worked at the speed 168 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:37,880 Speaker 2: and scale that we need, right because what we're actually 169 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:42,359 Speaker 2: seeing is when you introduce only these market based approaches 170 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:45,439 Speaker 2: like a carbon tax or cap and trade, they often 171 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:48,600 Speaker 2: spark a popular backlash and you lose the policies. I mean, 172 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 2: that's what happened in France that Colin was forced to 173 00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:56,320 Speaker 2: repeal his inadequate gas tax in the face of this 174 00:10:56,440 --> 00:10:59,839 Speaker 2: huge popular backlash. I'm Canadian. I'm living in the States 175 00:10:59,880 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 2: now now, but in Ontario we had a liberal government 176 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:07,920 Speaker 2: that introduced carbon policies that were widely perceived to have 177 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 2: increased the price of energy. And there are big debates 178 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:12,320 Speaker 2: about whether that's true and why that is, and if 179 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 2: it's really about the renewables push, or whether it's about 180 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 2: various boondoggles that they got themselves in Meshtin. But the 181 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:21,200 Speaker 2: point is is that it was perceived to be just 182 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 2: increasing the cost of living. And now we have a 183 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 2: right wing populist government whose very first act in office 184 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 2: was to repeal it, right. So you know, you have 185 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 2: a lot of people posing as you know, very very 186 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 2: serious people who know how to get things done, but 187 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:39,680 Speaker 2: if you look at the track record, it doesn't get 188 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 2: the job done. Whereas linking climate policies with actually much 189 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 2: more popular policies like medicare for all and job creation 190 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 2: and you know, protecting labor rights that hasn't been tried, 191 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:56,320 Speaker 2: you know, and it's certainly worth a try because it 192 00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 2: might actually work. 193 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:00,120 Speaker 1: I know, I don't understand why people think that the 194 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 1: same approach that we've been trying for thirty years, an 195 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 1: approach that hasn't worked, is going to be the thing 196 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:08,560 Speaker 1: that solves this problem. 197 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:11,480 Speaker 2: You know. It also kind of feels like the folks 198 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:13,839 Speaker 2: who are making these arguments need to spend a little 199 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 2: bit more time on the ground in disaster zones because 200 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:18,840 Speaker 2: you know, as a journalist like I come to this 201 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 2: from just being in the places, right, and there's just 202 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:27,320 Speaker 2: no way to just say with a straight face, like 203 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:30,600 Speaker 2: what does healthcare have to do with climate? You know, 204 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:33,960 Speaker 2: unless you have never been in a disaster zone, you know, 205 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 2: every and you know, I admit, you know, I run 206 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 2: to the fire. That's what I do as a journalist. 207 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:42,200 Speaker 2: And you know, whether it's New Orleans, you know, whether 208 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:46,840 Speaker 2: after Katrina, whether it's New York after Sandy, whether it 209 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 2: is Puerto Rico after Maria. In all of these cases, 210 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:55,560 Speaker 2: what you see is a total breakdown of the healthcare sector. Right. 211 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:58,560 Speaker 2: We know what killed people post Maria, and it wasn't 212 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:01,440 Speaker 2: falling debris. It was and this is what all the 213 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 2: research shows, right, it was the people who couldn't plug 214 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:07,880 Speaker 2: in their oxygen machines and their dialysis machines. And that 215 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:12,319 Speaker 2: you know that the intersecting system collapse of the electricity 216 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:14,719 Speaker 2: system and the healthcare system, right that had both been 217 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:19,960 Speaker 2: systematically underfunded, partially privatized, and just left in such a 218 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 2: state of decay that when the winds blew, the whole 219 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:25,880 Speaker 2: thing collapsed. And then of course you have all these 220 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 2: interests that don't want to get them back up and running. 221 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 2: You know, Vcus, the only hospital in Vicus, is still 222 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:35,720 Speaker 2: closed two years after Maria. So people are still dying 223 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:37,960 Speaker 2: because of it. And this is why it just I 224 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 2: just find it maddening that we that we would not 225 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 2: see the connections. We had an event just at Rutgers 226 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:48,079 Speaker 2: where I teach called care workers, climate work. 227 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you about that because I saw 228 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 1: the announcement for it, and I was really excited to 229 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 1: see it because I've written for a long time about 230 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 1: both gender and climate, which a lot of times people 231 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:01,600 Speaker 1: don't understand how the those things intersect in a really 232 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:04,439 Speaker 1: basic way. But then I would often have editors kind 233 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:06,960 Speaker 1: of ask, you know, what does care work have to 234 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 1: do with climate staff? And it was really enjoying, so 235 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 1: happy to see this event. 236 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:16,079 Speaker 2: It's so annoying because these you know, nurses, home care workers, teachers, 237 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 2: become first responders in the midst of disasters, right, you know, 238 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 2: whether it's driving their students on school buses through wildfires 239 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 2: in Alberta or California, or whether it's homecare workers who 240 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:32,960 Speaker 2: have died in fires with their patients who they refuse 241 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 2: to abandon. I mean, there's so many examples of this. 242 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:39,240 Speaker 2: But it's also low carbon work. It doesn't it doesn't 243 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 2: take a lot of carbon to just take care of 244 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 2: each other. These are sectors where we can expand and 245 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 2: this is this is a really important response to the 246 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 2: Fox News talking point of it's all going to be pain, 247 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 2: it's all going to be suffering, right, Like, let's identify 248 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 2: the parts of our economy that we can have abundance in, right, 249 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:00,640 Speaker 2: and where we can make sure that these jobs which 250 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 2: have been systematically devalued because it's women's work, because it's 251 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 2: work overwhelmingly done by immigrant women, how about if we 252 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 2: make them good jobs, right. And so that was just 253 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:16,120 Speaker 2: a really fruitful discussion among teachers and nurses and home 254 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:22,120 Speaker 2: care workers and disability rights advocates, and it was abundantly 255 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 2: clear that, of course they are, they're already on the 256 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:27,840 Speaker 2: front lines of the climate crisis. You know what, We've 257 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 2: got schools that in this country that are having to 258 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 2: send kids home because they're so hot and they're failing. 259 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:39,960 Speaker 2: Infrastructure can't cope with the heat. There's no air circulation, 260 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 2: they're ac either doesn't work, you know, or doesn't exist. 261 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 2: And in some of the schools in communities of color, 262 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:50,840 Speaker 2: there's lead in the water, so you know, you've got 263 00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 2: students who are choosing between dehydration and getting poisoned from 264 00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:59,520 Speaker 2: drinking from the water fountain. Right, And this, of course, 265 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 2: schools should be at the center, you know, of the 266 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 2: Green New Deal. And at the end of the panel, 267 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:08,000 Speaker 2: I just asked, you know, the everybody, I said you know, 268 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 2: it seems so clear that this is connected. Why do 269 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:15,200 Speaker 2: you think you haven't been included in so many of 270 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 2: the discussions around the Green New Deal, And several of 271 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 2: the speakers said this was the first time anyone asked 272 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 2: them to reflect on it or to share ideas, and 273 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 2: they all have ideas about how to green their various sectors. Wow. 274 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 2: And Emily Comer, who's one of the speakers, she and 275 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 2: she's you know, kind of a legend because she led 276 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 2: the West Virginia teacher strikee you know, in red state 277 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:40,520 Speaker 2: West Virginia coal country, right, connected the dots between the 278 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:43,320 Speaker 2: fact that the oil and gas sector, you know, they 279 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 2: don't pay their taxes, to the fact that their schools 280 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:48,440 Speaker 2: were falling apart, and said pay your taxes. You know. 281 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 2: Emily said, you know, we're left out because it's women's work. 282 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:55,000 Speaker 2: And you know, they also pointed out that the original 283 00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 2: New Deal excluded domestic workers because it was overwhelmingly black 284 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:01,800 Speaker 2: women doing that work and we just can't do this again. 285 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:07,000 Speaker 1: Exactly. Yes, I'm curious, just as someone who's watched corporations 286 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 1: kind of behave worse and worse over the years, what 287 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:13,200 Speaker 1: you think needs to be done with the fossil fuel 288 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 1: industry in order to implement some of the ideas around 289 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:18,040 Speaker 1: the Green New Deal. 290 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:22,199 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, obviously, you know and your listeners know 291 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:25,240 Speaker 2: that we have a really big problem with the fact 292 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:33,160 Speaker 2: that their business model is incompatible with any definition of 293 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:37,720 Speaker 2: an organized civilization because they will lead us straight to 294 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 2: four to six degrees of warming, and they're quite open 295 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:44,399 Speaker 2: about that. They that they see a future of business 296 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:48,040 Speaker 2: as usual for themselves and even increased demands. They are 297 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:51,640 Speaker 2: laughing at non binding targets set at the United Nations. 298 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:54,160 Speaker 2: They think they can get around it. And the reason 299 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 2: they think they can get around it is because of 300 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 2: all the money they have. This is a very very 301 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 2: profitable business model that requires constant expansion of the fossil 302 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 2: fuel frontier in order to not go into crisis. They have, 303 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 2: you know, what's called the reserve replacement ratio that to 304 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 2: worry about, which is telling their investors that they have 305 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 2: more in reserve than they have in production, or at 306 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:21,439 Speaker 2: least as much. And given that, what we know is 307 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:24,000 Speaker 2: that if we are to have any hope of keeping 308 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:27,679 Speaker 2: warming below one point five degrees celsius, we need a 309 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:32,840 Speaker 2: managed decline of existing production. We just have a fundamental 310 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:38,280 Speaker 2: incompatibility of what these businesses need to not go into 311 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:41,560 Speaker 2: crisis and what we as a species need to not 312 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:47,879 Speaker 2: spiral into crisis. It's not resolvable. And that's why the 313 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:52,159 Speaker 2: strategy of to create a crisis, a market crisis for 314 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 2: these companies has has been very important. And that's what 315 00:18:56,800 --> 00:19:00,639 Speaker 2: the fossil fuel devestment movement has been about. But it's like, 316 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:03,160 Speaker 2: to me, the fossil field investment movement has never been 317 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 2: about an idea that we were going to actually kind 318 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:09,160 Speaker 2: of bankrupt them just by getting people to pull their funds. 319 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 2: And you know, I've said this to students over the 320 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:13,680 Speaker 2: years when I go to campuses and meet a wonderful 321 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 2: group of divestment, you know, a great fossil fueld divestment 322 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 2: group who's been at it for you know, four years, 323 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 2: and their university won't just won't listen to them and 324 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:28,240 Speaker 2: is completely intransigent. And there's many cases like Harvard, and 325 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 2: I mean, there's lots of cases where it's been really tough, right, 326 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:34,120 Speaker 2: And what I always say to them is you, yeah, 327 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 2: we want your university to divest. Like it is good 328 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:40,119 Speaker 2: when that happens, and it's great that the UC system 329 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 2: just just just announced finally after seven years, that they're 330 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 2: going to divest. 331 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:46,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a huge win. 332 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 2: But you know what I say to them is every 333 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:52,399 Speaker 2: time you go out there and make the argument that 334 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 2: this is a rogue business, that you're basically turning them 335 00:19:56,840 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 2: into a kind of a pariah the way tobacco companies were. 336 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:04,679 Speaker 2: You are helping to create the political space that we 337 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:08,879 Speaker 2: need to tax them, increase their royalties, and if they 338 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:13,600 Speaker 2: really resist us, nationalize them. Because making that argument for 339 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:19,520 Speaker 2: why there is a fundamental incompatibility between our health and theirs, right, 340 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:22,760 Speaker 2: the more you create that political space. And I think 341 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:25,359 Speaker 2: it's because so many young people have been out making 342 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 2: that argument that they've also been able to pivot to 343 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:33,679 Speaker 2: the demand that politicians not take their money right, and 344 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 2: many many of the people who are doing that now 345 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:39,600 Speaker 2: through the Sunrise movement started in the Fossil Fueld divestment movement. 346 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:42,200 Speaker 2: You know, there's a lot of folks who's who as 347 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:46,359 Speaker 2: university activists. Varshy Precaucious one of them, at Will Lawrence 348 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:47,960 Speaker 2: is another of them. You know, these are some of 349 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:50,800 Speaker 2: the co founders of Sunrise. They started in the Fossil 350 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 2: fueld divestment movement, and now they're focusing on getting politicians 351 00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 2: not to take their money. And that's really significant because 352 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 2: if we can get politicians to divest, it's going to 353 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:04,000 Speaker 2: be a lot more likely that they are willing to 354 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 2: propose the policies that we actually need instead of you know, 355 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:10,959 Speaker 2: fake solutions that that are doing things like presenting natural 356 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:13,879 Speaker 2: gases a bridge fuel. The other side of it is 357 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:17,439 Speaker 2: like fossil fuel companies and all of their excess cash 358 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:22,200 Speaker 2: from their from their illegitimate business model. They've always had 359 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:24,880 Speaker 2: the carrot and the stick, right, Like the carrot is 360 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 2: we will fund your campaign and help you directly if 361 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 2: you give us the policies that we want, right, and 362 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:39,400 Speaker 2: the stick is if you don't, we will take out 363 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 2: all of these attack ads and destroy you and fund 364 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:47,840 Speaker 2: your opponent. Right. And so the getting Democrats to divest 365 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:53,440 Speaker 2: and getting Democratic politicians to divest deals with the carrot, right, 366 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:56,520 Speaker 2: But it doesn't deal with the stick, because they can 367 00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:59,040 Speaker 2: still Even if you get politicians not to take their 368 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:03,199 Speaker 2: money and they start being willing to entertain real climate 369 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:05,880 Speaker 2: policies like a Green New Deal and bands on fracking 370 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:08,480 Speaker 2: and so on, they're still going to be afraid that 371 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:13,360 Speaker 2: these companies can spend unlimited funds buying TV ads attacking them. 372 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:16,120 Speaker 2: And that's where Amy, your work's been so important, right, 373 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 2: because we need to really, really really talk about media 374 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:22,639 Speaker 2: divesting because you know, in the same way that we 375 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:25,680 Speaker 2: don't turn it on CNN and see ads for Marlbros, 376 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:29,360 Speaker 2: why should we turn on CNN and see ads for Exxon? 377 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:32,840 Speaker 2: And if we can cut off these two streams, because 378 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:35,400 Speaker 2: we have in fact turned this into a pariah industry, 379 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:39,639 Speaker 2: you know, the streams going directly to politicians and the 380 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 2: streams that allow them to buy the attack ads, I 381 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 2: actually think we buy ourselves some significant policy oxygen. 382 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:50,440 Speaker 1: Right, Thank you. We've been working on that a lot, 383 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:54,280 Speaker 1: this idea of pushing media to take some responsibility here 384 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:58,000 Speaker 1: for what we might be enabling, especially outlets that go 385 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:01,960 Speaker 1: the extra step and actually make oil companies ads for them. 386 00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 1: The thing I think people need to remember is that 387 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:07,679 Speaker 1: these companies are not advertising a product. It's not the 388 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:12,240 Speaker 1: same as other types of advertising. They're advertising ideas. 389 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 2: You know. And this first started driving me nuts around 390 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:18,000 Speaker 2: the Keystone Fight, where we would have a hell of 391 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:23,160 Speaker 2: a time getting on MSNBC, you know, for two minutes 392 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:26,639 Speaker 2: to explain why we were opposed to the pipeline, and 393 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:29,800 Speaker 2: when you would manage to do it, you know, and 394 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:31,879 Speaker 2: it would just be so we get we got so 395 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:34,959 Speaker 2: little airtime to make the case against Keystone, but then 396 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:38,359 Speaker 2: it would just always be followed by much longer you know, 397 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:41,679 Speaker 2: ex on ahead. Well, mostly they're advertising the opposite of 398 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:45,159 Speaker 2: their product, right, Like they're advertising like wind turbines and 399 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 2: solar powers that are like point so solar powers that 400 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:49,480 Speaker 2: are point three percent of their businesses. 401 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:51,480 Speaker 1: Yes, exactly, yes. 402 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:53,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I mean if and if you look at 403 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:56,479 Speaker 2: this what's happening at the state level where when you know, 404 00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,119 Speaker 2: whenever there's a resolution or you know, some kind of 405 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:03,520 Speaker 2: referendum on a local climate policy, the amount of money 406 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:07,879 Speaker 2: that is being spent to defeat these measures and the 407 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:12,240 Speaker 2: plans are getting better, Like Washington State's latest attempt at 408 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 2: carbon pricing was you know, that should have won, and 409 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:18,680 Speaker 2: the only reason it didn't win was because of this 410 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:22,399 Speaker 2: gusher of money. Yeah, and it's like we may not 411 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 2: be able to keep these companies from being rich, but 412 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:27,320 Speaker 2: we you know, I think we can keep them from 413 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 2: having access to the airwaves and destroying democracy in this way, 414 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:35,080 Speaker 2: you know, and then maybe we can have a fair fight. 415 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:37,160 Speaker 1: Okay, The last thing I want to get your take 416 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:40,560 Speaker 1: on is just how the climate movement has evolved in 417 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:43,560 Speaker 1: recent years from your perspective and where you think it 418 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 1: needs to go next. Yeah. 419 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:50,159 Speaker 2: I mean, there's no doubt that there's some good indicators. 420 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 2: You know, seven million people worldwide participating in the Global 421 00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:58,280 Speaker 2: Climate strikes over a period of eight days. And I 422 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:00,280 Speaker 2: think what's really significant about that is not just that 423 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 2: it's like the largest climate mobilization that we've ever seen, 424 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:06,520 Speaker 2: but how quickly it came together. You know, you had 425 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,240 Speaker 2: the People's Climate March in twenty fourteen, which was amazing, 426 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:12,960 Speaker 2: and it was four hundred thousand people, but that was 427 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:15,399 Speaker 2: like a year in the making, you know, and it 428 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:18,680 Speaker 2: was a lot. It was many, many millions of dollars 429 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:21,920 Speaker 2: from different groups and you know, bus loads of people, 430 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,320 Speaker 2: and it was it was just huge effort, right, And 431 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:29,520 Speaker 2: these strikes were huge efforts too, but really only got 432 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:33,159 Speaker 2: moving in August, right, And like in Montreal there were 433 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 2: six hundred thousand people, which is two hundred thousand more 434 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:38,520 Speaker 2: than at the People's Climate March. And I think that 435 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:42,639 Speaker 2: what that speaks to is you're just tapping into a 436 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:45,919 Speaker 2: zeitgeys like everybody in the city wants to come, you know, 437 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,600 Speaker 2: so as opposed to like we need to like move 438 00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:52,439 Speaker 2: our troops, you know, and we're seeing it in the 439 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,200 Speaker 2: polling as you know, right that it's that this sense 440 00:25:55,240 --> 00:26:00,640 Speaker 2: of urgency is way way different than it was even 441 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,920 Speaker 2: two years ago, when people, you know, even Democrats who 442 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:06,479 Speaker 2: said they cared about climate change would rank it at 443 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,480 Speaker 2: the bottom of their list of priorities, and now you know, 444 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,640 Speaker 2: it's up there with health care and jobs. I still 445 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,400 Speaker 2: think it's completely ridiculous to ask people to rank their 446 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:19,440 Speaker 2: issues like that, and that we should be thinking about anything. 447 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:23,840 Speaker 2: But yeah, we have to figure out how we can 448 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:27,240 Speaker 2: you know, merge these issues because we shouldn't have to 449 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 2: rank and choose. But still, you know, that, unfortunately, is 450 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:33,680 Speaker 2: what it takes to get the attention of politicians, because 451 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:35,600 Speaker 2: you know, when you say you care about an issue 452 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 2: but rank it nineteenth or twentieth on a list, then 453 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:42,400 Speaker 2: what that tells your elected representatives is, well, I can 454 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:44,159 Speaker 2: I can throw this one under the bus and not 455 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:46,760 Speaker 2: pay a political price, And that's what they did, and 456 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:50,639 Speaker 2: then that's what they've consistently done. So I think that 457 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 2: is why we have these much bolder plans on the table. 458 00:26:55,680 --> 00:27:00,119 Speaker 2: An incredible mobilization from groups like Sunrise building all on 459 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:05,240 Speaker 2: you know, the intellectual and grassroots group, grassroots work of 460 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:13,359 Speaker 2: a network of environmental justice organizations who have been putting 461 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:18,320 Speaker 2: these ideas out there and putting them into practice in 462 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:21,680 Speaker 2: their communities, and the Climate Justice Alliance deserves a huge 463 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:24,159 Speaker 2: amount of credit. In my book, I talk about how 464 00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:27,080 Speaker 2: many of these ideas really come from the global South, 465 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:31,000 Speaker 2: from places like Ecuador and Bolivia and Nigeria where you've 466 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 2: had really really dirty drilling and massive environmental disasters, and 467 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:42,800 Speaker 2: you have you know, movements, many of them led by 468 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:44,960 Speaker 2: indigenous people who have been talking about the notion of 469 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:49,200 Speaker 2: ecological debt, of climate debt, and how you know. I 470 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:52,680 Speaker 2: quote Anaholica Navarro in a speech she made exactly ten 471 00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:55,680 Speaker 2: years ago at the UN calling for a Marshall Plan 472 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 2: for planet Earth and mobilizing funds on a scale never 473 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:02,399 Speaker 2: seen before, or to help countries like hers leap frog 474 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:06,080 Speaker 2: to clean energy leave their forests intact. So, you know, 475 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:09,399 Speaker 2: when I think about where we are, amy like I 476 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:13,560 Speaker 2: have mixed emotions. I feel like if a helica had 477 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:19,119 Speaker 2: been listened to ten years ago, maybe maybe Brazil's forests 478 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:21,600 Speaker 2: wouldn't be on fire right now, and maybe they'd have 479 00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:24,960 Speaker 2: more of a chance of protecting their glaciers, you know, 480 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:28,520 Speaker 2: on which you know, millions of people depend for fresh water. 481 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:31,639 Speaker 2: We have lost so much and we're not going to 482 00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 2: get it back, and we are on such a tight deadline. 483 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:38,320 Speaker 2: So we need to just move. We need like a 484 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 2: kind of a scale of change that is, you know, 485 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:45,320 Speaker 2: a term I first heard from Leanne Simpson, who's an 486 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:50,200 Speaker 2: amazing on a shnabe writer thinker in Canada, and she 487 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:54,520 Speaker 2: talks about punctuated transformation, right that things need to shift 488 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 2: very quickly, and it needs to be a paradigm shift. 489 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:02,440 Speaker 2: And so when I think about how we get there, 490 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:04,960 Speaker 2: it's I think we can't think about this as something 491 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:07,760 Speaker 2: that is about the climate movement. I think the climate 492 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:10,400 Speaker 2: movement is part of this, but I think it has 493 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 2: to be about really engaging people who are outside of 494 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 2: any definition of what the climate movement is now, but 495 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:24,480 Speaker 2: who have shown that they are able to organize large 496 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:27,680 Speaker 2: numbers of people and mobilize large numbers of people. You know, 497 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:31,160 Speaker 2: the migrant rights movement should be central to this debate, 498 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:36,320 Speaker 2: and the reason they are not is not because people 499 00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:40,120 Speaker 2: doing that organizing don't understand that they're also on the 500 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:43,200 Speaker 2: front lines of the climate crisis. Of course they know, right, 501 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,760 Speaker 2: It's because they are in a NonStop state of emergency 502 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:51,760 Speaker 2: dealing with family separation and human rights atrocities on the border. 503 00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:54,280 Speaker 2: And so we have to I think we really need 504 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,840 Speaker 2: to focus on how do we just really rethink this. 505 00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:00,320 Speaker 2: And this is why you know, we had that on 506 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,360 Speaker 2: care work right and thinking about how do we tap 507 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:06,760 Speaker 2: into this wave of teacher mobilizations. You know, it's like 508 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 2: I said, when we had this panel, a lot of 509 00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 2: folks were saying, this is the first time anyone's asked 510 00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:14,760 Speaker 2: us about the Green New Deal. You know, it's so 511 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:18,760 Speaker 2: crazy and like and so it just can't it can't 512 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:20,800 Speaker 2: just be the climate movement. We have to look who's 513 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:24,520 Speaker 2: who's kicking ass out there. Teachers are, you know, nurses are, 514 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:29,040 Speaker 2: Migrant rights organizers are, and and on and on and on, 515 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:31,920 Speaker 2: the Poor People's Campaign is. And it's like, how do 516 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 2: we turn all of these streams into like a rushing 517 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,560 Speaker 2: river that is going in the same direction and is 518 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:43,240 Speaker 2: really about transforming the economy. Because I don't think we 519 00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:45,240 Speaker 2: have time to think about how do we just build 520 00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:47,840 Speaker 2: out the climate movement. I think it's about how do 521 00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:50,840 Speaker 2: we get all of these streams together. And I think 522 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:53,320 Speaker 2: we have to be honest about the fact that part 523 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:56,000 Speaker 2: of the reason that this hasn't happened is because a 524 00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:59,320 Speaker 2: lot of the ways that folks get funding it encourages 525 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:01,719 Speaker 2: us to stay in our sort of issue silo and 526 00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:05,840 Speaker 2: in our little narrow lane, and we don't have a 527 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:10,360 Speaker 2: lot of infrastructure, like movement infrastructure that creates spaces for 528 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:12,800 Speaker 2: people to kind of get to face to face and 529 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:15,240 Speaker 2: do that sort of hard work of getting on the 530 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:18,800 Speaker 2: same page and dealing with you know, difficult history and 531 00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:22,960 Speaker 2: past mistakes. We spend a lot of time online, less 532 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:25,200 Speaker 2: and less of it face to face. So this is 533 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:28,200 Speaker 2: I think the work, and you know, I don't feel 534 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:30,560 Speaker 2: sanguine about it. I feel like, gosh, we have a 535 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 2: hell of a lot to do and not a lot 536 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:34,840 Speaker 2: of time. What I feel hopeful about is that I 537 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 2: feel like the appetite for transformational change is greater than 538 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:42,400 Speaker 2: at any point in my lifetime. I think there's a 539 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:46,560 Speaker 2: widespread understanding that, you know, we shouldn't be afraid of 540 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:51,760 Speaker 2: deep change because this sort of safe centrism is what 541 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:56,200 Speaker 2: has produced the kind of radicalism of Trump. So especially 542 00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:59,600 Speaker 2: with younger folks, you know, I really see a difference, 543 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,040 Speaker 2: Like when I speak to people to audiences, like the 544 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:04,800 Speaker 2: younger folks in the audience are like really up for it. 545 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:08,120 Speaker 2: They're not afraid of the connections. They want an intersectional movement. 546 00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:11,560 Speaker 2: They love making the connections. The more the better. And 547 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:13,960 Speaker 2: it's sort of you know my generation and older who 548 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:16,720 Speaker 2: are just like, really are you making this harder? 549 00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:18,480 Speaker 1: You know, right? 550 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:21,960 Speaker 2: Right? You would think that building a broader movement is 551 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:26,760 Speaker 2: generally something movements want. And if that's not the case, 552 00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:30,480 Speaker 2: like what is going on kind of ideologically, and what's 553 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:32,640 Speaker 2: the subtext of that, Like what are you afraid of? 554 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:35,320 Speaker 2: Who are you afraid of? And you know, a lot 555 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 2: of it, like I think some of it is like 556 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:42,440 Speaker 2: kind of the legacy of McCarthyism, red baiting, Like you know, 557 00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:45,720 Speaker 2: this country has been through various wars on the left right, 558 00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:48,560 Speaker 2: and that's part of what put people into their sort 559 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:51,800 Speaker 2: of issue silos right where it's like, you know, no, 560 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:54,640 Speaker 2: we don't want we don't want to change society. We 561 00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:57,120 Speaker 2: just want to change this one thing, right, Like we 562 00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:00,000 Speaker 2: want this one group to have you know, better acts 563 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:02,360 Speaker 2: or whatever it is. And there's sort of a fear 564 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:05,120 Speaker 2: when you start talking about systems and like a shift 565 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:09,280 Speaker 2: in actually the operating system that's governing society. And there's 566 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:12,240 Speaker 2: a history to that fear that I think maybe needs 567 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:17,400 Speaker 2: to be made visible and legible before we actually will 568 00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:20,080 Speaker 2: be willing to build the kind of movement that we need. 569 00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 1: That's great. Thank you so much for taking the time. 570 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 1: I really appreciate it, and it was great. It was 571 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:26,760 Speaker 1: just great talking to you. 572 00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:28,760 Speaker 2: Thanks so much for doing this and for all your work. 573 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:39,320 Speaker 1: Okay, that's it for this time, Thanks for listening. I 574 00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:41,200 Speaker 1: want to give a little shout out to our most 575 00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:47,800 Speaker 1: recent Patreon supporters. They are Darcy Vermont, Elliot Glist, Matt Swainston, 576 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:54,200 Speaker 1: Winston Torrence, Paul Harmander, Dylan, Laura Rosenfield, Nancy Slavin, and 577 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:58,400 Speaker 1: Mark Leopold. Thank you all so much. Your support is 578 00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:02,720 Speaker 1: funding most for reporting right now, well, including our latest investigation, 579 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:05,160 Speaker 1: which is up on the website. You should definitely go 580 00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:08,840 Speaker 1: check it out if you haven't already. That's drillednews dot com. 581 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:13,040 Speaker 1: We got our hands on some documents around BP's rebranding 582 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:17,399 Speaker 1: and they are very illuminating. If you're able to support us, 583 00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:20,200 Speaker 1: we do have a few ways that you can do that. 584 00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:22,400 Speaker 1: They're all up on our website and we'll stick a 585 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:25,000 Speaker 1: link to that in the show notes. Thanks again, and 586 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:26,040 Speaker 1: we'll see you next time.