Speaker 1: Fellow conspiracy realist. Have you ever been on the losing
Speaker 1: side of a war? Yeah, this one's for the war criminals.
Speaker 1: Have you ever needed a GTFO really quickly?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Have you?
Speaker 1: Please write to us. But by the way, this is
Speaker 1: seriously we hope that's never happened to you. We hope
Speaker 1: that you are not a war criminal. This episode, I
Speaker 1: think stands out to both of us because it combines history,
Speaker 1: it combines conspiracy, It combines crime not just on a
Speaker 1: local but on an international scale. And in short, Matt,
Speaker 1: we're talking about something called Odessa.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're going to get into it through the rat lines.
Speaker 2: We're gonna find our way through paper clip. It's kind
Speaker 2: of like paper clip. You'll remember that one. Do search
Speaker 2: for that. If you don't remember it, let's just dive
Speaker 2: in and see where we get to.
Speaker 3: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
Speaker 3: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
Speaker 3: learn this stuff they don't want you to know.
Speaker 1: A production of.
Speaker 3: iHeart Radios How Stuff Works.
Speaker 2: Welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my
Speaker 2: name is Nolan.
Speaker 1: They call me Ben. We are joined today with our
Speaker 1: super producer role brillianty. Most importantly, you are you, You
Speaker 1: are here, and that makes this stuff they don't want
Speaker 1: you to know. Quick question at the top of the show.
Speaker 1: Have you all ever had to make an escape? It
Speaker 1: could be an escape from a party don't want to
Speaker 1: be at, or a family function, an escape from a
Speaker 1: social obligation, and escape from a country.
Speaker 4: I unsuccessfully participated in an escape room. Did not get
Speaker 4: out in the lot time? Oh no, it was quite
Speaker 4: a letdown. Did you get tortured?
Speaker 5: No?
Speaker 4: I blame one particular team member who shall go nameless,
Speaker 4: who had the confidence of a general and the intelligence
Speaker 4: of something much less than a general.
Speaker 1: And to be clear, I've heard this story and you
Speaker 1: are not talking about yourself. No, okay, it's a different
Speaker 1: what about you met?
Speaker 2: I was once at an extended in law's house far
Speaker 2: away and one of the persons there was acting as
Speaker 2: a bit of a bully, and then it escalated and
Speaker 2: escalated throughout the course of an evening, and you perhaps,
Speaker 2: and I packed up the things that I had unpacked
Speaker 2: with my wife and we got the heck out of there.
Speaker 1: Good. Yeah, good forget those people.
Speaker 2: It wasn't that crazy in hindsight, but it was certainly
Speaker 2: uncomfortable in the moment.
Speaker 4: So, yeah, Ben, you're's talking getting kicked out of countries.
Speaker 4: Have you ever had to make a mad, crazy getaway.
Speaker 1: Yes, I've had several close calls over my time. Got
Speaker 1: it one in Germany, two in Guatemala, one in Canada. Yeah,
Speaker 1: a number once where I get to say, I had
Speaker 1: to get out of a town in Guatemala after dark.
Speaker 1: It was it was in the it was in the jungle.
Speaker 1: It was strange. I was essentially racing to catch the
Speaker 1: last charter bus that would pass through that area of
Speaker 1: the of the country before dawn, so the next one
Speaker 1: would come at dawn. But I was not in a
Speaker 1: place where you would have want to stay overnight.
Speaker 2: Gotcha using those diplomatic privileges wink.
Speaker 1: No, Well sure, sure, anyway, I made it here, right,
Speaker 1: That's all that matters.
Speaker 2: There we go.
Speaker 1: Today's episode does have something common thematically with this series
Speaker 1: of escapes. We're talking about whether an escape room, whether
Speaker 1: a weird living situation, whether you are whether you are
Speaker 1: racing the darkness or the dawn. Today we are exploring
Speaker 1: a strange secret story. It's one that begins, we say,
Speaker 1: right around the close of World War two. But that's
Speaker 1: not entirely accurate. This story begins before the end of
Speaker 1: the actual war. It just the rubber hits the road
Speaker 1: at the end. Wait war, what war are we talking about?
Speaker 1: Here are the facts.
Speaker 2: That's why it's the Great War, the one that is
Speaker 2: taught to children across the world. No matter where you
Speaker 2: grow up, you will learn about this because it was
Speaker 2: such an important few I mean really didn't even last
Speaker 2: that long, but it was one of the most important
Speaker 2: things that ever occurred in the history of humanity.
Speaker 1: It was the whole world and war with itself.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for each other the second time, it's right, yeah,
Speaker 2: And it took place from nineteen thirty nine to nineteen
Speaker 2: forty five. World War two, of course, is what we're
Speaker 2: speaking of. If you didn't get it through those means.
Speaker 2: But here's the thing. I mean, that timeline isn't perfect, right,
Speaker 2: because there are machinations that occur prior to that. There
Speaker 2: are there's a lot of cleaning up essentially that occurs afterwards.
Speaker 1: Well, there's a lot of setting up to socioeconomic positions
Speaker 1: that are changed or in an unsustainable way. In the thirties, also,
Speaker 1: there are a lot of banks evolved I'm going to
Speaker 1: say it. I know it's a different episode, but it
Speaker 1: would be naive to pretend that was not the case.
Speaker 2: Certainly, and at least one major religious organization.
Speaker 1: Yes, at least one. We know today that the opponents
Speaker 1: in the war were collectively primarily referred to as the
Speaker 1: Axis Powers and the Allied Powers. This is still the
Speaker 1: deadliest conflict in recorded history, Matt. I like what you
Speaker 1: pointed out about how that timeline actually seems thirty nine
Speaker 1: to forty five, especially when the news just broke this
Speaker 1: year this month. Actually that we're recording, they are US
Speaker 1: soldiers in Afghanistan who were born after the current US
Speaker 1: conflict in that part of the world began. There are
Speaker 1: people who have grown up only knowing that war.
Speaker 2: Yeah, or at least as the major defining war in
Speaker 2: their lifetime or in their world. Right. Yeah, that is
Speaker 2: that's very odd.
Speaker 1: It's still not the deadliest war and recorded history. That
Speaker 1: dubious honor goes to World War Two. As you said, Matt,
Speaker 1: most children learn about this war at some point in school.
Speaker 1: Exactly what we learn depends on where we are raised.
Speaker 1: We did an earlier episode on an episode or a
Speaker 1: video I cannot remember on the insidious ways that textbooks
Speaker 1: guide the reasoning of children, like if you read if
Speaker 1: you read a textbook about World War two that's published
Speaker 1: by a textbook company in Japan, it's going to be
Speaker 1: very different from a book about World War two for
Speaker 1: children that's published in Russia, or in China, or of
Speaker 1: course in the US. But regardless of their disagreements, all
Speaker 1: these textbooks agree on one central point, including the German textbooks,
Speaker 1: mind you, and that is this The Nazi Party of
Speaker 1: Germany were the bad guys. They were the ones every
Speaker 1: textbook will tell you seeking global dominance, responsible for genocide,
Speaker 1: human experimentation, all these other atrocities, a seemingly unending list
Speaker 1: of war crimes. Nazi officials foresaw the close of the
Speaker 1: war and the fall of the Axis powers before it
Speaker 1: actually happened. They could see the writing on the wall,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean.
Speaker 4: Yeah, they knew that they got caught, they would have
Speaker 4: to answer for these crimes and be tried.
Speaker 2: You know, as you kind of listed off a few
Speaker 2: of those things there have been These aren't things that
Speaker 2: are you're going to get a lenient sentence for. They
Speaker 2: were aware that the whole world essentially would be holding
Speaker 2: them accountable for these things, and they would be either
Speaker 2: in jail or put in front of a firing squad
Speaker 2: or hanged if the end would come either very swiftly
Speaker 2: or it would be an elongated process for perhaps decades.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the human species is not perfect. But what, thankfully,
Speaker 1: one thing billions of people can agree on is that
Speaker 1: if you try to kill billions of other people, something
Speaker 1: bad should happen to you. Yes, you know, so go us,
Speaker 1: go team.
Speaker 4: So understandably, these folks looked to plan their escape.
Speaker 2: Yeah, anyway they possibly could get out of the countries
Speaker 2: where they were, because we're not just talking about Nazis
Speaker 2: in Germany. There were people in countries, you know, across
Speaker 2: that area in Europe, and again if you looked at Japan,
Speaker 2: people were trying to escape justice.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and Italian fascists, members of that aspect of
Speaker 1: the Axis powers.
Speaker 2: Well, even on some of the Allied powers. There were
Speaker 2: numerous Soviet higher echelon soldiers and military personnel that were
Speaker 2: trying to get out because they feared what would occur
Speaker 2: after the war. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, can you imagine after the close of the war,
Speaker 1: Nazi officials who were captured were tried in court during
Speaker 1: a series of military tribunals known as the Nuremberg Trials.
Speaker 1: The Nuremberg Trials are incredibly important for human history. They're
Speaker 1: often depicted in works of fiction and films and so on,
Speaker 1: and they set some crucial precedents. The first tribunal began
Speaker 1: on November twentieth, nineteen forty five, and it was aiming
Speaker 1: to try twenty four prominent members of Germany's Nazi parties.
Speaker 1: These people were tried in absentia because they had not
Speaker 1: been apprehended.
Speaker 4: There is that, Like, what an awkward proceeding that must
Speaker 4: have been.
Speaker 1: It's weird. People are really people are into it. I
Speaker 1: think they had to set the precedent. And then also
Speaker 1: if they find the person guilty in absentia, the law
Speaker 1: still apply. So anytime that person is found, who knows,
Speaker 1: maybe the sentence can be carried out immediately. Probably not
Speaker 1: something that medieval, but similar who.
Speaker 4: Do they yell at and shame in the room though?
Speaker 4: Is they're like a proxy person that stands in for
Speaker 4: the absent party.
Speaker 1: I don't know, because even when that one pope dragged
Speaker 1: the carcass of his predecessor out and had a trial
Speaker 1: for the dead guy. They at least needed that prop
Speaker 1: you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, in any court, at least within the US,
Speaker 2: if you don't have somebody to stand trial, then there
Speaker 2: is no trial. So but in this it really is.
Speaker 2: It was just a matter of needing to state, essentially,
Speaker 2: this person is guilty of these things. It is known
Speaker 2: now throughout the world that this guy did this.
Speaker 1: And these were the big fish of the party, not
Speaker 1: all of them, but many of them were the drivers,
Speaker 1: the builders, the architects of the horrible socioeconomic engine that
Speaker 1: Germany had created, you know, the heads of economic policy,
Speaker 1: military of course, the people who were in charge of
Speaker 1: the concentration camps. The surviving members of the party worked
Speaker 1: ardently to avoid justice. And it's interesting that today we're
Speaker 1: talking about escape because the stakes were so high that
Speaker 1: some people who could not well, I guess the best
Speaker 1: way to say it is, some people found only one
Speaker 1: route for physical escape, and they took it without hesitation.
Speaker 2: And of course you're talking about both Joseph Gerbels as
Speaker 2: well as Adolf Hitler. And if you want to learn
Speaker 2: more about these guys, they chose to take their own lives.
Speaker 2: We did an episode called What happened to Hitler a
Speaker 2: little while ago, and gosh, I think it's twenty seventeen maybe,
Speaker 2: but you can learn about all of the theories surrounding
Speaker 2: Hitler's death. Whether he actually.
Speaker 1: Died then he's probably dead now either way.
Speaker 2: Yes, but listen to that episode if you want to
Speaker 2: learn more about that.
Speaker 1: Figure out what people found, what people learned about the skull.
Speaker 4: And then you had folks like Heinrich Mueller who just
Speaker 4: kind of vanished like Kaiser Susday style.
Speaker 1: So what happened? Where did they go? We'll tell you
Speaker 1: after a word from our sponsors. Here's where it gets crazy.
Speaker 1: So this was a rumor, This was a whisper for
Speaker 1: a long time. What happened to these Nazi says? You said,
Speaker 1: nol What happened to these ones who disappeared? Iserse style.
Speaker 1: Over the decades since World War Two, declassified files have
Speaker 1: proven the Nazis had an ongoing conspiracy, or it's better
Speaker 1: to say, a nest of conspiracies, this cavalcade of secret
Speaker 1: plans created to evade the consequences of their actions. This
Speaker 1: is not well technically speaking, this is not a conspiracy
Speaker 1: theory because it's not a theory. It really actually happened.
Speaker 1: It is a genuine conspiracy.
Speaker 2: And it's really multi like you said, multiple conspiracies, multiple groups,
Speaker 2: and multiple plans, and a lot of them were successful.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's overlap and some worked better than others. Right,
Speaker 1: And to a degree, this conspiracy, this let's call it
Speaker 1: an uber conspiracy since we're using German. Right, This uber
Speaker 1: conspiracy or medic conspiracy remains unsolved. It all goes back
Speaker 1: to something called ratlines. What is a rat line, you
Speaker 1: may ask.
Speaker 4: Well, today the very escape networks, tunnels infrastructure used for
Speaker 4: this purpose by the Nazis and fascists at the close
Speaker 4: of the war are all collectively referred to as ratlines,
Speaker 4: and they were essentially plans for individuals and groups to
Speaker 4: vanish themselves, disappear themselves, leaving Germany for safe havens like
Speaker 4: South America and also the.
Speaker 1: US shout out to Operation paper Clip.
Speaker 2: Yeah. But yes, they also went other places, right, Yeah,
Speaker 2: like Switzerland. Yeah. And there are even a couple of
Speaker 2: rumors of areas in the Middle East where people were
Speaker 2: secreted away to write Syria. Yeah. But just to jump
Speaker 2: back to paper Clip again, we've done an episode on this.
Speaker 2: This was the specifically the United States version of a
Speaker 2: rat line to get Nazi scientists generally scientists, but there
Speaker 2: are a few other characters in there to the United
Speaker 2: States for our own gain, because the mines behind some
Speaker 2: of the terrible things that occurred were or I don't
Speaker 2: know how else better to put this there, they were
Speaker 2: some innovative people that were doing things that were complicated,
Speaker 2: and the United States saw strategic advantage to using those
Speaker 2: minds for their own advantage.
Speaker 1: That is just it's absolutely it's it's absolutely brutal and
Speaker 1: ruthless and machiavelian and true Nazi scientists are the reason
Speaker 1: that human beings ended up on the Moon if you
Speaker 1: think about it, And they're one of the reasons, right
Speaker 1: because Operation paper Clip focused on taking thousands of German
Speaker 1: scientists and engineers, particularly Werner von Braun.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, that's the big name, right, who.
Speaker 1: Had done so much work on V two rockets. If
Speaker 1: you think about it, that that expertise that the US
Speaker 1: took does lead maybe not directly, but does lead to
Speaker 1: the rocket technology that the US later used is to
Speaker 1: send people into space.
Speaker 2: In the least, it helped tremendously.
Speaker 1: At the very least, and I know it can be
Speaker 1: seen as somewhat of a hot take to again say
Speaker 1: the Nazis helped the US land people on the moon.
Speaker 1: It sounds weird when you, you know, boil it down to
Speaker 1: one sentence maybe former Nazis. Yeah, you know what, that's
Speaker 1: way more diplomatic former Nazis.
Speaker 2: But again, I feel weird even saying that. It feels
Speaker 2: like I'm downplaying it.
Speaker 1: Well, we know that some members, especially in the scientific community,
Speaker 1: some members of the Nazi Party were maybe members in
Speaker 1: name because of internal political pressure, and they had to
Speaker 1: do it to they say they had to do it
Speaker 1: to survive. We also will never know the true story.
Speaker 6: Ben.
Speaker 4: You read a really great quote on a recent episode
Speaker 4: of Ridiculous History where you said, nobody really cares about
Speaker 4: anyone's motivation for being a Nazi. Whether you did it
Speaker 4: on purpose or you know, were kind of strong armed
Speaker 4: into it, You're still called a Nazi at the end
Speaker 4: of the day. There's no like form or Nazi are
Speaker 4: like Nazi and name only really right.
Speaker 2: Well, the things you did, the physical acts, the ideas
Speaker 2: that you created that you know, brought into this world
Speaker 2: were for a means that was nefarious and did terrible
Speaker 2: things to other people. Do you where there was a
Speaker 2: rocket that was being shot to blow up soldiers from
Speaker 2: you know, some other land.
Speaker 1: Whether it's a punch card machine.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like IBM, yeah, wow, Fanta, No, I'm just kidding this.
Speaker 1: I mean, this is an excellent point. Right. So the
Speaker 1: reason Operation paper Clip happens without going into the full
Speaker 1: episode we have on it that you can hear whenever
Speaker 1: you wish available wherever you get your favorite shows. The
Speaker 1: primary reason Operation paper Clip exists is because the US
Speaker 1: boffins and eggheads and military leaders do a cost benefit analysis.
Speaker 1: And before the end of World War Two, the beginnings
Speaker 1: of the Cold War are already it's nascent, it's kicking
Speaker 1: into gear, and the Soviet side and the US and
Speaker 1: the West are already planning on how to become the
Speaker 1: global hedgemon. Right, So Operation paper Clip was this cost
Speaker 1: benefit analysis where US scientists and what did I say,
Speaker 1: boffins and eggheads and military leaders, they know that these
Speaker 1: these ideological orphans, right, these brilliant evil people because again
Speaker 1: like Noel said, they are Nazis, knew that they would
Speaker 1: be hunted around the world. But more importantly, the US
Speaker 1: knew that if they did not spirit these folks away,
Speaker 1: the Soviet machine would get them, and the Soviet government
Speaker 1: did apprehend German scientists. I think the US only got
Speaker 1: around sixteen hundred or so.
Speaker 2: But yeah, just sixteen hundred, yeah.
Speaker 1: Right, just sixteen hundred of those top men. To quote
Speaker 1: Indiana Jones, right, doesn't he say that the ender Raiders
Speaker 1: of the Lost art things. Yeah, so we're going I'm
Speaker 1: going a little in the weeds on Operation paper Clip.
Speaker 1: It's just very important for everyone living in the US
Speaker 1: to know that when you hear about ratlines, when you
Speaker 1: hear about countries like Argentina help Brazil, Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: when you hear about these countries helping war criminals disappear,
Speaker 1: we have to realize this is very much a glass house.
Speaker 1: Our country did the same thing, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: and did it with even less of a clandestine attitude,
Speaker 1: more of an official stance. But okay, so what is
Speaker 1: a rat line. Let's say, now, we're not going to
Speaker 1: pick on super producer Lull because it's his first day
Speaker 1: with this. So let's just pick someone no one can
Speaker 1: hate and say they're a Nazi. Okay, So what if
Speaker 1: like Tom Hanks is you know, he got caught up
Speaker 1: he's a Nazi and he needs to escape Germany. It's
Speaker 1: the fall of World War two. What kind of ratline
Speaker 1: would he use? What would he? How would he? How
Speaker 1: does it work?
Speaker 2: Well? So, there are several routes that could be taken,
Speaker 2: like as far as locations that people are secreted through,
Speaker 2: but we kind of have to talk about the functionality
Speaker 2: of it. Right. The first thing you need to do
Speaker 2: to get past a border, right, if you're going to
Speaker 2: do that, is to have a false identity. And generally
Speaker 2: that's how these things began, where you would have someone
Speaker 2: somewhere that could get you false papers and prove that
Speaker 2: you're someone else as you're leaving, and as you are
Speaker 2: attempting to leave somewhere like Germany or Austria or wherever
Speaker 2: you're heading out of, you would generally end up heading
Speaker 2: from Germany to Spain and then eventually over to Argentina.
Speaker 2: That's one way, or one of the major ways. The
Speaker 2: other major way is from Germany to Italy Genoa in particular,
Speaker 2: and also that's going through Rome. And by the way,
Speaker 2: when you're going through Rome, you know who's helping out,
Speaker 2: can you guess?
Speaker 5: No?
Speaker 2: The Old Vatican, because again that is an arm that
Speaker 2: reaches very far and it has way too many fingers.
Speaker 2: You'd think it only had five fingers, but that arm
Speaker 2: just has like seventy five fingers.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm not gonna I am not a theologian.
Speaker 1: I would say it does seem somewhat off brand, somewhat
Speaker 1: un christ like to assist mass murders and to assist
Speaker 1: war criminals.
Speaker 2: But yeah, there's a deeper connection there with the Vatican
Speaker 2: and a lot of the happenings of World War Two
Speaker 2: that we were probably not going to fully get into today,
Speaker 2: but you can look that up if you wish. But anyway,
Speaker 2: they would also end up somewhere in South America. That
Speaker 2: that line that goes through Italy.
Speaker 1: And there's the four rat lines that depended on the
Speaker 1: help of the Vatican of the Catholic Church. South America
Speaker 1: makes sense, right because there is so much Catholic presence there.
Speaker 2: As well as the lack of extradition treaties in a
Speaker 2: lot of those places.
Speaker 1: And I do want to say, I do want to say,
Speaker 1: when we're saying the Vatican or we're saying the Catholic Church,
Speaker 1: we're not talking about people who actually just practice Catholicism. No, no, no,
Speaker 1: we're talking more about the political machine, yes, rather than
Speaker 1: the spiritual idea. We do have etymology of ratline. It's
Speaker 1: a nautical term which I did not know because it's
Speaker 1: ratline sounds like something snarky that maybe someone in Western
Speaker 1: intelligence made up.
Speaker 2: May I guess what it is? Yes, before it and
Speaker 2: then tell me if I'm WRONGY go for it. I
Speaker 2: always in my mind it's the small pathways that you'd
Speaker 2: have to get down on all fours essentially within a
Speaker 2: ship or something to access some of the other parts
Speaker 2: of the ship that, like the that are inaccessible.
Speaker 1: I I like, okay, I like where your heads at this.
Speaker 1: The original rat line was a sort of last resort passage.
Speaker 1: It was a It was a rope, these small lengths
Speaker 1: of cord that ran between the big ropes, the proper
Speaker 1: ropes that fixed the top of a mast to the
Speaker 1: sides of a vessel. So rat lines you could use
Speaker 1: them because they were horizontal as these kind of makeshift ladders.
Speaker 1: So if you absolutely had to get someone up the mast,
Speaker 1: they would crawl up this rat line. And there's a
Speaker 1: terrible image here, so they crawl up right, these these
Speaker 1: makeshift little rope ladders. Scampering up the rat line was
Speaker 1: something that desperate sailors would do when the ship was sinking,
Speaker 1: and so the last thing to go under the surface
Speaker 1: of the water is the mast, and so as the
Speaker 1: water's rising, they're running up the rat line.
Speaker 2: Okay, checks out, makes sense.
Speaker 1: And that's the people who missed out on the lifeboats.
Speaker 1: So that's that's interesting though, because in that etymology, there
Speaker 1: may be a deeper a deeper puzzle, right, certainly, and
Speaker 1: we'll get to that just we'll get to that just
Speaker 1: a second. But these roots that you're describing, the they
Speaker 1: start independently, right. The thing is, there's not a great conspiracy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you'll have you'll have basically a leader in one
Speaker 2: area that that generally has access to getting those kinds
Speaker 2: of identity papers that we were kind of briefly mentioning
Speaker 2: up up at the top there. If you can find
Speaker 2: one person like that who has a few other associates
Speaker 2: and then you can link up with that group, that
Speaker 2: then becomes essentially a cell right of network, because then
Speaker 2: those are popping up everywhere. But it doesn't necessarily mean
Speaker 2: that that network is fully connected or communicating with each other.
Speaker 2: You just have to find your node.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, like a lot of a lot of dirty
Speaker 1: things that state actors and governments do tend to be
Speaker 1: less an official decision of the government as a whole
Speaker 1: and more like a faction of people or community, a
Speaker 1: wheel within the wheel. Right. So, according to historian Michael Fayer,
Speaker 1: there were two alternate routes the ones you described at,
Speaker 1: and they developed independently, but they eventually merged, likely as
Speaker 1: the actors in these roots learned about one another and
Speaker 1: they were able to help and assist each other. And
Speaker 1: for years after the war, the concept of these escape routes,
Speaker 1: these ratlines were, as we said earlier, rumors, whispers, They
Speaker 1: were not officially confirmed. And you can see why because
Speaker 1: at the close of World War Two, when US soldiers
Speaker 1: have died, it would be terrible and very it would
Speaker 1: be political suicide for members of the US government to say, Okay,
Speaker 1: we won the war. We're doing our best to bring
Speaker 1: justice to people, except for the scientists. You guys, there's
Speaker 1: one dude who's just great at rockets, and we have
Speaker 1: to have them. We're sorry that your children have died,
Speaker 1: but we really want to get to the moon. You
Speaker 1: can't say that stuff. You know what I mean said, well, yeah,
Speaker 1: but I'm not not the president after World War Two.
Speaker 2: It's not a great when you said it. It's not
Speaker 2: very authoritative, guys, hear us out listen here, Wow, let's
Speaker 2: take a beat.
Speaker 1: That's I mean, it's true though, if you think about
Speaker 1: like who could who on earth would go public with that?
Speaker 1: So of course this was considered a wild tinfoil hat conspiracy,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? And people who if someone
Speaker 1: told you in the nineteen sixties, hey, I think the
Speaker 1: US government is abducting scientists, right, or I think that
Speaker 1: the Pope is abducting Nazis and helping them live a
Speaker 1: new life in Argentina. Then if someone told you that,
Speaker 1: you probably think, wow, this guy is on LSD. And
Speaker 1: I've never never see some one tripping like that's the.
Speaker 4: Plot of a movie that exists, like a scientists are disappearing.
Speaker 4: They're all being spirited away to a secret underground lab
Speaker 4: to do evil research under duress.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it sounds like Watchmen. It sounds like a whole
Speaker 2: bunch of different things.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the odessify there you go, similar to right, because
Speaker 1: even today, like even today, now that this stuff is confirmed,
Speaker 1: there are historians and researchers, not necessarily fringe historians nor
Speaker 1: fringe researchers who believe that there's still something nefarious, that
Speaker 1: there is still more we need to learn about this.
Speaker 1: And one of the largest controversies in the story of
Speaker 1: Nazi ratlines is something called Odessa. What is that you ask,
Speaker 1: We'll tell you after a word from our sponsor.
Speaker 4: So according to author Nazi hunter and Holocaust survivor Simon Wisenthal,
Speaker 4: Odessa or the Organization de Ermaligan SS ange Hourigan, was
Speaker 4: founded in nineteen forty six, one year after the close
Speaker 4: of the war. Odessa Odessa is the US code name
Speaker 4: for the operation, and according to Guy Walter, as a historian,
Speaker 4: US intelligence first became aware of this term when members
Speaker 4: of the SS and thekzy Bensheim auerbach In tournament camp
Speaker 4: used it in conversation while attempting to gain special favors
Speaker 4: or privileges from the Red Cross.
Speaker 1: So they would be The way this story goes is
Speaker 1: that these SS members would be trying to maybe get
Speaker 1: in communication with someone outside of where they were being held,
Speaker 1: you know, get maybe some cash, may maybe even try
Speaker 1: to see if they could get in touch with someone
Speaker 1: who could get them a passport, and from what we
Speaker 1: could tell, the conversation something like could you send this
Speaker 1: letter to my friend blah blah blah, and then say no, sorry,
Speaker 1: I can't can't send letters and they go, oh, but
Speaker 1: it's care of vote DESA exactly. So the first mention
Speaker 1: of it from the Allied side shows up in this
Speaker 1: memo from American intelligence and that's on July third, nineteen
Speaker 1: forty six. So what was ODESSA like? What we know
Speaker 1: that these smaller roots or these these more discreete organizations
Speaker 1: and ratlines, we already know that they exist. What's the
Speaker 1: difference with Simon Weisenthal's Odessa?
Speaker 2: So this author Weisenthal, he believed that Odessa was this
Speaker 2: big organization. I would kind of liken it to something
Speaker 2: like al Qaeda similar to that, like it's one big
Speaker 2: thing that was functioning together, right, and it was mostly
Speaker 2: made up of veterans of the SS. And not only
Speaker 2: were these did this group Odessa, not only did they
Speaker 2: get them out of Germany initially with passports like we
Speaker 2: were talking about, but they would also assist these people
Speaker 2: in setting up new lives in new countries such as
Speaker 2: Argentina or Brazil or wherever they were going to end
Speaker 2: up in South America, a couple of times in the
Speaker 2: Middle East in places like Syria. But there is one
Speaker 2: major issue with this. Not everybody believes the same thing
Speaker 2: that Wisenthal.
Speaker 1: Believes, right, That's the thing. Multiple other historians say Odessa
Speaker 1: as as he has described, never actually existed. Again, That's
Speaker 1: that's strange. No one is denying that the rat lines
Speaker 1: really did exist. And yes, everyone knows that some Nazi
Speaker 1: officials did successfully use these roots to escape, as well
Speaker 1: as some members of fascist parties and so on. But
Speaker 1: there's a complication to this narrative. Years before Simon Weisenthal
Speaker 1: of Issathal went public with his claims about Odessa, the
Speaker 1: government of Austria had already been investigating the idea. It's
Speaker 1: sort of it's it's like, if you're familiar with James Bond,
Speaker 1: the World's Worst Superspy, it's sort of like the concept
Speaker 1: of specter. Remember this uh specter in the Bond films,
Speaker 1: is this global evil organization.
Speaker 4: Every spy franchise as one, yeah and gets smart. I
Speaker 4: think it was chaos And all of them are acronyms
Speaker 4: that nobody remembers that.
Speaker 2: They stand for. But they're generally like this quasi governmental
Speaker 2: private organization, right that the aunctions outside of any government or.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and just has like a way cooler name than
Speaker 1: an actual government entity would ever have. It's like Scorpio, Chaos.
Speaker 2: Spect the Octo Quad, the Octo Quad.
Speaker 1: I would, yeah, I would join the Octo Quad.
Speaker 2: But why is it octo because the symbol is like
Speaker 2: a weird eight and four together.
Speaker 1: Take a roun. No, it's it's four octas.
Speaker 2: It's a quad of octas. Okay, okay, so it's it's
Speaker 2: twenty four.
Speaker 1: Excuse me, send us your design for octo quad and
Speaker 1: teach us how to do math. So that's but it's true.
Speaker 1: Like so the argument then is that Odessa is a
Speaker 1: real life version of this evil super spy Bond esque thing.
Speaker 1: And also Simon Weisenthal. In the fall of World War Two,
Speaker 1: he did not get along with West German military intelligence.
Speaker 1: They butted heads all the time. That doesn't mean that
Speaker 1: his claims are untrue, and it doesn't, you know. All
Speaker 1: it means is that there's a wrinkle here, and it
Speaker 1: could people claiming that Odessa is not real could be
Speaker 1: seeking to discredit the Weisenthal Weisenthal organization. Or it could
Speaker 1: also mean maybe.
Speaker 2: In his.
Speaker 1: In his search to find these aped war criminals, that
Speaker 1: Bisenthal started drawing connections in his own head where none existed,
Speaker 1: you know what I.
Speaker 4: Mean absolutely, I mean we all know that that's some
Speaker 4: of what gives conspiracy theory circles a bad rap. Sometimes
Speaker 4: it's easy to do foregone conclusions or sort of work
Speaker 4: backwards and like sort of have a preconceived notion of
Speaker 4: what something is when it maybe isn't actually that at all.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and again, the thing is, so he was definitely
Speaker 1: right about the smuggling operations, the rat lines. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: we found proven ones, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we did. We found a whole bunch of proved ones.
Speaker 2: And I just want to add on to what you're
Speaker 2: saying there, Guys, it feels like, and this is complete
Speaker 2: speculation on my part, that if Odessa really was a
Speaker 2: thing and it was kept you know, secret enough to
Speaker 2: where we are still in twenty nineteen, you know, postulating
Speaker 2: whether or not it could be real, it feels like
Speaker 2: it could have had ad integration somehow with one or
Speaker 2: more intelligence communities or agencies throughout the world. And what
Speaker 2: intrigues me is that the CIA was involved in several
Speaker 2: of these, you know, secreting away of Nazis along with
Speaker 2: paper clip, you know what was occurring with paper clip,
Speaker 2: but in other instances as well, to get essentially s
Speaker 2: S officials and high level targets to then flip them
Speaker 2: and become informants, not only to find other SS you know, escapees,
Speaker 2: but also to inform them on strategy and other things.
Speaker 2: Very tricky. So it's we're gonna, We're gonna continue down
Speaker 2: here because we know several of these names, people that
Speaker 2: escaped and people who were involved in things like this.
Speaker 2: But it just does make me feel like if Odessa
Speaker 2: was real, perhaps there was a higher involvement with some
Speaker 2: other powerful intelligence agency.
Speaker 1: Right, some sort of institution capable of not only moving
Speaker 1: people across the world, but also cleaning up after themselves
Speaker 1: such that they could they could sweep up the trace. Right.
Speaker 1: We also, okay, we have to say it. We already
Speaker 1: mentioned this, but we have to say it. The Vatican
Speaker 1: did it. That's the institution that has the power and
Speaker 1: the reach to move people across I'm not being an
Speaker 1: anti papist or whatever, and I'm not saying anything bad
Speaker 1: about the spiritual beliefs of anybody who ascribes to Christianity
Speaker 1: or Catholicism. But the machine, the machine that runs that
Speaker 1: organization on an earthly level, is more than capable of
Speaker 1: creating these sort of I know it sounds very Dan Brown, right,
Speaker 1: but they're more than capable of enacting this sort of
Speaker 1: this sort of process, and in a very real way,
Speaker 1: the Catholic Church at this time was, you know, hand
Speaker 1: in hand with the ostensible governing powers of some developing countries, right,
Speaker 1: and in some cases not all, not all. And again
Speaker 1: it's very it's very easy, I think, to connect dots
Speaker 1: where none exists. But it is true that in some
Speaker 1: cases the Catholic Church had so much influence over a
Speaker 1: country or parts of a country, that it was effectively
Speaker 1: the government.
Speaker 2: Yeah wow, Okay, well, I don't even know to say
Speaker 2: following that, I just want to let you soapbox for
Speaker 2: a while.
Speaker 1: Because I'm sorry, thanks for coming to my ted talk.
Speaker 2: Well, no, because Wend we've found this to be true.
Speaker 2: I mean, if you look at somebody like, uh, Dragonov,
Speaker 2: I don't know how to precisely pronounce the name there,
Speaker 2: but this is a person who would get false identity
Speaker 2: papers like we were kind of mentioning before he would
Speaker 2: get them from the let's see this an unidentified person,
Speaker 2: an American who was serving at the Eligibility office of
Speaker 2: the International Refugee Organization in Rome. Okay, so you've got
Speaker 2: a person working with an office in Rome to get
Speaker 2: some papers, right. That only apparently that only happened for
Speaker 2: a short time because things fell through with all of that.
Speaker 2: But then he ended up working with another organization, the
Speaker 2: National Catholic Welfare Organization, and as well as the Italian
Speaker 2: police in the Italian Foreign Office, and that was again
Speaker 2: to obtain false documentation for Nazis that were attempting to escape.
Speaker 2: He would get false exit and entry visas for at
Speaker 2: least three South American countries, the Argentina that we talked about, Bolivia,
Speaker 2: even Chili and again and a lot of times. It's
Speaker 2: not known precisely how these documents are obtained, but it
Speaker 2: is known that there were just bribes that were going
Speaker 2: on with maybe an individual diplomat or somebody who could
Speaker 2: have access to those. And it's not necessarily known the
Speaker 2: full let's say, compliance of any of these larger organizations
Speaker 2: that I've mentioned up here, but someone at a higher
Speaker 2: level or a high enough level to actually create and
Speaker 2: get these documents. Was involved because you say these weren't
Speaker 2: counterfeit documents.
Speaker 4: These were official documents.
Speaker 2: Yes, and with names with brand new names.
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, that's the thing. It's it's like, at what
Speaker 1: point is something of forgery, you know, and at what
Speaker 1: point is it real? So, because we're an audio podcast, Matt,
Speaker 1: you just held your hands the kind of the old
Speaker 1: six in one hand, hal, yeah, and another it's true.
Speaker 1: And we have to also remember if we're being if
Speaker 1: we're being completely objective, we have to remember in this situation,
Speaker 1: with an organization the size of the Vatican or the
Speaker 1: Catholic Church, it is laughably unlikely that everyone knew this
Speaker 1: was happening. Again, these are factions, right this Dragonovic in
Speaker 1: what Croatia, right in the Nazi puppet state of Croatia
Speaker 1: at the time.
Speaker 2: It's a Krunslav. Sorry I didn't say that.
Speaker 1: Earlier, Oh first name, Yes, yeah, And we also have
Speaker 1: to note that the Red Cross was another institution not
Speaker 1: near as big nor as powerful as a Catholic Church,
Speaker 1: but they also effectively helped war criminals escape.
Speaker 2: In the did I did I mention that Dragonovic was
Speaker 2: a Catholic priest, He was yet I don't. I don't
Speaker 2: think Yeah, I am so sorry. I totally bury the
Speaker 2: lead there. That was the whole point. It was it
Speaker 2: was a priest doing all of that work, obtaining all
Speaker 2: of these papers. Yeah, sorry, Croatian Roman priest.
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, yeah he was, Yeah, Kronos Draganovic. He was
Speaker 1: working in Croatia and was assisting Croatian fascists like sympathizers
Speaker 1: to the Nazi Party. Members of the Nazi Party working
Speaker 1: in Croatia, which at that point was a vassal of
Speaker 1: larger Germany. The Red Cross, though, the big question with
Speaker 1: them is whether they whether they aided in embedded war
Speaker 1: criminals on purpose or just through the sheer, the sheer
Speaker 1: weight of incompetence, the sheer inertia of ineptitude, because they
Speaker 1: were overwhelmed with refugees. How easy is it if you're one,
Speaker 1: even as many as fifteen people, How easy is it
Speaker 1: for you to slip through with hundreds of thousands? And
Speaker 1: you know, imagine your job is every day, eight hours
Speaker 1: a day, you sit at the at the front of
Speaker 1: a never ending line. People hand you papers. It may
Speaker 1: or may not speak a language you understand. You have
Speaker 1: three to five seconds to look at the paper and
Speaker 1: stamp it. I'm spitballing here.
Speaker 2: I know, no, this is I totally see this working,
Speaker 2: especially if you're talking about between nineteen forty five nineteen
Speaker 2: forty eight. Maybe if you show up to a refugee
Speaker 2: servicing area like that or processing location and you don't
Speaker 2: have official papers with you because whatever the excuses they
Speaker 2: you know where my country's literally at war. I don't
Speaker 2: have my papers with me. I'm trying to escape, right,
Speaker 2: How how do you prove the identity of somebody?
Speaker 1: So the Red Cross had previously mentioned this that they said, yes,
Speaker 1: some Nazi war criminals or Axis criminals had escaped through
Speaker 1: the refugee process. But oddly enough, when I went back
Speaker 1: to look at the page on the Red Cross website
Speaker 1: where they mentioned it, it's been pulled. Yeah, maybe it's
Speaker 1: just an olderlink. I'm sure. I'm sure we can find
Speaker 1: the source out there. But they that's their argument, is
Speaker 1: that the system was overwhelmed. No one was doing anything
Speaker 1: on purpose, but their process was supposed to have the
Speaker 1: equivalent of a background check from the Allied military. But
Speaker 1: it was pretty it was pretty cursory, and they often
Speaker 1: in the Red Cross relied on references from the Vatican
Speaker 1: that could easily be duped up or fixed. And these
Speaker 1: travel papers that people would get they were called ten
Speaker 1: one hundreds or one zero dot one hundred, and they
Speaker 1: were very easy to get because when you're trying to
Speaker 1: process millions venicson people who have had their lives destroyed,
Speaker 1: you know, you want to make the process as quick
Speaker 1: as possible.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, and you have to, I mean for safety,
Speaker 2: for health reasons. You can't just leave people in limbo
Speaker 2: like that.
Speaker 1: So with Dragonovic, he is functioning as an agent in
Speaker 1: this chaotic time. He had what'd you say he had?
Speaker 1: He had set up travel to three different South American.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Bolivia, Argentina, and Chile.
Speaker 1: So we know that he had some kind of pull
Speaker 1: what did they call it on the wire suction maybe
Speaker 1: it was, Yeah, I think it was in the.
Speaker 2: A lot of suction.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they had some kind of you know, juice or
Speaker 1: whatever Dragonovic did. And this rat line was abandoned or
Speaker 1: disbanded would be a better word than what the fifties.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was disbanded in nineteen fifty one and equated
Speaker 4: some sources, it was because they were just done with it.
Speaker 4: They'd gotten everyone out that they wanted to get out,
Speaker 4: they were able to shut it.
Speaker 1: Down, so they succeeded essentially.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and this leads us to this leads us to
Speaker 1: one of the great mysteries of World War Two, one
Speaker 1: of the real and genuine conspiracies. What happened to the
Speaker 1: ones that got away? You can find a plethora of ideas.
Speaker 1: I'm using that word correctly. Yep, you can find a
Speaker 1: plethora of ideas about this, but some are more plausible
Speaker 1: than others. In the Dragonovic case, we know that he
Speaker 1: assisted Klaus Barbie in escaping. This person has never been caught.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Klaus ended up getting to Bolivia, at least that's
Speaker 2: what's believed. It's also believe that the United States ended
Speaker 2: up helping him get there along with Dragonovic. Was Barbie
Speaker 2: was actually captured in eighty three and then we found
Speaker 2: out that he died in nineteen ninety one. Uh and
Speaker 2: we found out because he was in prison in France.
Speaker 1: There we go. Yeah, So some of these people just
Speaker 1: got away for a time.
Speaker 2: Oh a lot. That's a That is the one of
Speaker 2: the main stories of a lot of these guys. They
Speaker 2: end up getting identified much later in life. Several of
Speaker 2: them end up in trial for you know, in various
Speaker 2: ways they end up in trial because they end up
Speaker 2: in a prison somewhere else, or they get used for
Speaker 2: a time as in Oh, who, which which guy is this?
Speaker 2: Let me jump back over here. I believe it's ALOI Brunner. Yes,
Speaker 2: I think Eloy Brunner. He is a guy who ended
Speaker 2: up in Syria and he was actually assisting the prior
Speaker 2: to Bashar al Assade, Bashar's father. He was assisting that
Speaker 2: regime in military tactics, allegedly in developing something called the
Speaker 2: German chair, which was a torture device that would break
Speaker 2: someone's back when they were when it was a applied
Speaker 2: to them. He was like essentially century modern furniture. No,
Speaker 2: you know, I mean real torture. This guy was developing
Speaker 2: real torture while in Syria, and he was living a
Speaker 2: fairly comfortable life early on when he got there. I
Speaker 2: think it's sometime in the fifties when he ended up
Speaker 2: in Syria, and he he's described as a card in
Speaker 2: the hand of a regime. Right, So, like we were
Speaker 2: talking about with the United States seeing strategic power and
Speaker 2: having these scientists, this guy was seen as a military
Speaker 2: strategist or a at least someone who could help them
Speaker 2: with their means to or in their ways to achieve
Speaker 2: greater power.
Speaker 1: Right under the name George Fisher. Yes, he helped. He
Speaker 1: helped organize the this is let's see, it's important, but
Speaker 1: it's weird to explain. He helped organize the compartmentalization of
Speaker 1: the intelligences, and I think he trained some of the
Speaker 1: regime's top intelligence people. The big thing he was teaching
Speaker 1: them was that if you truly want to be in charge,
Speaker 1: you compartmentalized information. You don't want your left hand knowing
Speaker 1: what your right hand is doing because one day you
Speaker 1: may have to clap them against one another.
Speaker 2: Essentially, yeah, and only you and a very small group
Speaker 2: of people will know.
Speaker 1: Anyway, here's this chair I made. It breaks people's backs.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really messed up and it's a crazy story.
Speaker 2: You can read more about it at the Irish Times
Speaker 2: dot com. That's where we found an article called Nazi
Speaker 2: war criminal reportedly died in a Syrian dungeon. And again
Speaker 2: the name is A L.
Speaker 1: O I.
Speaker 2: S B R U N N E R.
Speaker 1: And then there are others such as Adolph Eichmann, Joseph Mengele.
Speaker 1: There's one in particular one a touch on. This guy's
Speaker 1: name is or was Heinrich Mueller is the last chief
Speaker 1: of the Gestapo. His fate after World War Two. According
Speaker 1: to the Jewish Virtual Libraries account, Mueller got away or
Speaker 1: was thought to have gotten away for decades and decades.
Speaker 1: They thought he had just slipped the net, and no
Speaker 1: one could find him after multiple investigations. However, the official
Speaker 1: story is that in October twenty thirteen, evidence surface that
Speaker 1: he had been buried in a mass grave in Berlin
Speaker 1: at the close of the war in forty five. However,
Speaker 1: that's this research still remains for some people a little
Speaker 1: I don't know, arguable, Like just like we've talked about
Speaker 1: with deaths of I hate to say it, the deaths
Speaker 1: of other historically notable, infamous or famous people. The story
Speaker 1: doesn't die when the person does. Like there are people
Speaker 1: alive now who think Elvis Presley is somehow alive. And
Speaker 1: Elvis Presley was a celebrity and a musician who did
Speaker 1: briefly work with US law enforcement or attempt to.
Speaker 5: But he was well being Asian man exactly talking and
Speaker 5: but but these are war criminals, and we will never
Speaker 5: know the fate of some of them.
Speaker 1: That's why for decades, and that's why for decades after
Speaker 1: the war, you know, since before many of us were
Speaker 1: born listening today, there were people who just hunted these
Speaker 1: folks down. And the list doesn't stop there. We have
Speaker 1: a lot of like allegedly or is believed tos or
Speaker 1: is suspected tos in these people's stories. We know, we
Speaker 1: know stories of Nazis where you can follow the line
Speaker 1: maybe to an extradition country, right, and then they disappear
Speaker 1: and there's a few years later a report of like
Speaker 1: an elderly an elderly German retiree expiring quietly in a
Speaker 1: small town.
Speaker 2: And then somess found in the attic or something. But
Speaker 2: there are also a lot of these people who end
Speaker 2: up in a tribunal or a court when they are
Speaker 2: in their eighties because they get found out living in
Speaker 2: America somewhere, or living in France even sometimes, or in Argentina, Belivia,
Speaker 2: wherever it's gonna be. There's so many story of this,
Speaker 2: stories about this and of people going through this and
Speaker 2: finally seeing justice because they're I mean, it's alleged like
Speaker 2: somewhere between, I don't know, the exact number, and we
Speaker 2: can't really ever know the exact number, but thousands of
Speaker 2: SS and German soldiers military made it out alive. We
Speaker 2: just don't know exactly how many that is. I've seen
Speaker 2: it alleged up to ten thousand, I think perhaps even more,
Speaker 2: just through the alleged Odessa program exactly.
Speaker 1: And there we have to leave it at this point. Still,
Speaker 1: it's twenty nineteen, and people will tell you Odessa was
Speaker 1: or was not real, right, we have to ask ourselves
Speaker 1: about the degree of sophistication, the degree of collaboration that
Speaker 1: these rat lines employed. While they may have not been
Speaker 1: members of some elaborate global secret society, those clandestine escape
Speaker 1: routes were real, and more often than some would like
Speaker 1: to admit, these routes were also successful. Is this something
Speaker 1: that could happen in twenty nineteen, in these our modern days.
Speaker 1: It could. It would have to be different, though, because
Speaker 1: surveillance technology has just evolved, right.
Speaker 2: It would have to be more of a low level
Speaker 2: human trafficking kind of situation, I think, where you're not
Speaker 2: actually going to use real papers. Well maybe that's not true,
Speaker 2: Maybe that's maybe that's not true at all.
Speaker 1: So there's an interesting. There's an interesting dilemma here because
Speaker 1: although there have been so many technological breakthroughs that allow
Speaker 1: people to be closely observed, more closely than ever before
Speaker 1: at any point in history, the control of those technologies
Speaker 1: is also increasingly in the hand of a smaller and
Speaker 1: smaller and smaller subset of human individuals and institutions. So
Speaker 1: it's like there's more water coming out of the faucet,
Speaker 1: but there are fewer people capable of turning the knobs.
Speaker 1: And what that means is that if this is entirely hypothetical,
Speaker 1: I'm not describing a real thing. What that means in
Speaker 1: theory is that if our super producer Lull needed to
Speaker 1: disappear for some reason and had the assistance of Uncle
Speaker 1: Sam in doing so, then the Alphabet agencies could simply
Speaker 1: erase his digital footprint. It's it's fascinating. It's something we
Speaker 1: don't really have an answer for. Again, that's entirely speculative,
Speaker 1: but it is possible.
Speaker 2: Agreed, And I I don't want to talk about Nazis
Speaker 2: anymore today? Can we? Can we stop talking about Nazis?
Speaker 1: Yes, I'm right there with you.
Speaker 2: Do you want to talk about Nazis?
Speaker 6: No?
Speaker 2: No, I mean you do you want to talk about Nazis.
Speaker 4: But you do tune into our nude podcast, Nazi Talk, Yes,
Speaker 4: coming out soon on the iHeart Radio podcast.
Speaker 1: Did you call it our nude podcast?
Speaker 2: That's what I heard too.
Speaker 1: Yes, you do it in the nude Yes, and that's
Speaker 1: our classic episode for this evening. We can't wait to
Speaker 1: hear your thoughts. That's right. Let us know what you think.
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