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Speaker 1: Fellow conspiracy realist. Have you ever been on the losing

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Speaker 1: side of a war? Yeah, this one's for the war criminals.

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Speaker 1: Have you ever needed a GTFO really quickly?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Have you?

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Speaker 1: Please write to us. But by the way, this is

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Speaker 1: seriously we hope that's never happened to you. We hope

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Speaker 1: that you are not a war criminal. This episode, I

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Speaker 1: think stands out to both of us because it combines history,

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Speaker 1: it combines conspiracy, It combines crime not just on a

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Speaker 1: local but on an international scale. And in short, Matt,

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Speaker 1: we're talking about something called Odessa.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we're going to get into it through the rat lines.

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Speaker 2: We're gonna find our way through paper clip. It's kind

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Speaker 2: of like paper clip. You'll remember that one. Do search

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Speaker 2: for that. If you don't remember it, let's just dive

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Speaker 2: in and see where we get to.

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Speaker 3: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 3: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 3: learn this stuff they don't want you to know.

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Speaker 1: A production of.

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Speaker 3: iHeart Radios How Stuff Works.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my

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Speaker 2: name is Nolan.

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Speaker 1: They call me Ben. We are joined today with our

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Speaker 1: super producer role brillianty. Most importantly, you are you, You

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Speaker 1: are here, and that makes this stuff they don't want

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Speaker 1: you to know. Quick question at the top of the show.

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Speaker 1: Have you all ever had to make an escape? It

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Speaker 1: could be an escape from a party don't want to

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Speaker 1: be at, or a family function, an escape from a

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Speaker 1: social obligation, and escape from a country.

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Speaker 4: I unsuccessfully participated in an escape room. Did not get

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Speaker 4: out in the lot time? Oh no, it was quite

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Speaker 4: a letdown. Did you get tortured?

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Speaker 5: No?

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Speaker 4: I blame one particular team member who shall go nameless,

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Speaker 4: who had the confidence of a general and the intelligence

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Speaker 4: of something much less than a general.

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Speaker 1: And to be clear, I've heard this story and you

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Speaker 1: are not talking about yourself. No, okay, it's a different

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Speaker 1: what about you met?

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Speaker 2: I was once at an extended in law's house far

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Speaker 2: away and one of the persons there was acting as

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Speaker 2: a bit of a bully, and then it escalated and

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Speaker 2: escalated throughout the course of an evening, and you perhaps,

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Speaker 2: and I packed up the things that I had unpacked

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Speaker 2: with my wife and we got the heck out of there.

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Speaker 1: Good. Yeah, good forget those people.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't that crazy in hindsight, but it was certainly

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Speaker 2: uncomfortable in the moment.

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Speaker 4: So, yeah, Ben, you're's talking getting kicked out of countries.

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Speaker 4: Have you ever had to make a mad, crazy getaway.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I've had several close calls over my time. Got

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Speaker 1: it one in Germany, two in Guatemala, one in Canada. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: a number once where I get to say, I had

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Speaker 1: to get out of a town in Guatemala after dark.

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Speaker 1: It was it was in the it was in the jungle.

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Speaker 1: It was strange. I was essentially racing to catch the

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Speaker 1: last charter bus that would pass through that area of

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Speaker 1: the of the country before dawn, so the next one

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Speaker 1: would come at dawn. But I was not in a

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Speaker 1: place where you would have want to stay overnight.

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Speaker 2: Gotcha using those diplomatic privileges wink.

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Speaker 1: No, Well sure, sure, anyway, I made it here, right,

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Speaker 1: That's all that matters.

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Speaker 2: There we go.

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Speaker 1: Today's episode does have something common thematically with this series

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Speaker 1: of escapes. We're talking about whether an escape room, whether

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Speaker 1: a weird living situation, whether you are whether you are

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Speaker 1: racing the darkness or the dawn. Today we are exploring

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Speaker 1: a strange secret story. It's one that begins, we say,

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Speaker 1: right around the close of World War two. But that's

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Speaker 1: not entirely accurate. This story begins before the end of

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Speaker 1: the actual war. It just the rubber hits the road

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Speaker 1: at the end. Wait war, what war are we talking about?

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Speaker 1: Here are the facts.

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Speaker 2: That's why it's the Great War, the one that is

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Speaker 2: taught to children across the world. No matter where you

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Speaker 2: grow up, you will learn about this because it was

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Speaker 2: such an important few I mean really didn't even last

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Speaker 2: that long, but it was one of the most important

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Speaker 2: things that ever occurred in the history of humanity.

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Speaker 1: It was the whole world and war with itself.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, for each other the second time, it's right, yeah,

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Speaker 2: And it took place from nineteen thirty nine to nineteen

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Speaker 2: forty five. World War two, of course, is what we're

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Speaker 2: speaking of. If you didn't get it through those means.

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Speaker 2: But here's the thing. I mean, that timeline isn't perfect, right,

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Speaker 2: because there are machinations that occur prior to that. There

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Speaker 2: are there's a lot of cleaning up essentially that occurs afterwards.

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Speaker 1: Well, there's a lot of setting up to socioeconomic positions

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Speaker 1: that are changed or in an unsustainable way. In the thirties, also,

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Speaker 1: there are a lot of banks evolved I'm going to

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Speaker 1: say it. I know it's a different episode, but it

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Speaker 1: would be naive to pretend that was not the case.

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Speaker 2: Certainly, and at least one major religious organization.

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Speaker 1: Yes, at least one. We know today that the opponents

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Speaker 1: in the war were collectively primarily referred to as the

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Speaker 1: Axis Powers and the Allied Powers. This is still the

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Speaker 1: deadliest conflict in recorded history, Matt. I like what you

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Speaker 1: pointed out about how that timeline actually seems thirty nine

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Speaker 1: to forty five, especially when the news just broke this

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Speaker 1: year this month. Actually that we're recording, they are US

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Speaker 1: soldiers in Afghanistan who were born after the current US

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Speaker 1: conflict in that part of the world began. There are

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Speaker 1: people who have grown up only knowing that war.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, or at least as the major defining war in

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Speaker 2: their lifetime or in their world. Right. Yeah, that is

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Speaker 2: that's very odd.

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Speaker 1: It's still not the deadliest war and recorded history. That

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Speaker 1: dubious honor goes to World War Two. As you said, Matt,

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Speaker 1: most children learn about this war at some point in school.

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Speaker 1: Exactly what we learn depends on where we are raised.

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Speaker 1: We did an earlier episode on an episode or a

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Speaker 1: video I cannot remember on the insidious ways that textbooks

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Speaker 1: guide the reasoning of children, like if you read if

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Speaker 1: you read a textbook about World War two that's published

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Speaker 1: by a textbook company in Japan, it's going to be

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Speaker 1: very different from a book about World War two for

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Speaker 1: children that's published in Russia, or in China, or of

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Speaker 1: course in the US. But regardless of their disagreements, all

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Speaker 1: these textbooks agree on one central point, including the German textbooks,

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Speaker 1: mind you, and that is this The Nazi Party of

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Speaker 1: Germany were the bad guys. They were the ones every

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Speaker 1: textbook will tell you seeking global dominance, responsible for genocide,

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Speaker 1: human experimentation, all these other atrocities, a seemingly unending list

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Speaker 1: of war crimes. Nazi officials foresaw the close of the

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Speaker 1: war and the fall of the Axis powers before it

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Speaker 1: actually happened. They could see the writing on the wall,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, they knew that they got caught, they would have

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Speaker 4: to answer for these crimes and be tried.

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Speaker 2: You know, as you kind of listed off a few

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Speaker 2: of those things there have been These aren't things that

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Speaker 2: are you're going to get a lenient sentence for. They

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Speaker 2: were aware that the whole world essentially would be holding

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Speaker 2: them accountable for these things, and they would be either

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Speaker 2: in jail or put in front of a firing squad

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Speaker 2: or hanged if the end would come either very swiftly

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Speaker 2: or it would be an elongated process for perhaps decades.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the human species is not perfect. But what, thankfully,

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Speaker 1: one thing billions of people can agree on is that

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Speaker 1: if you try to kill billions of other people, something

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Speaker 1: bad should happen to you. Yes, you know, so go us,

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Speaker 1: go team.

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Speaker 4: So understandably, these folks looked to plan their escape.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, anyway they possibly could get out of the countries

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Speaker 2: where they were, because we're not just talking about Nazis

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Speaker 2: in Germany. There were people in countries, you know, across

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Speaker 2: that area in Europe, and again if you looked at Japan,

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Speaker 2: people were trying to escape justice.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and Italian fascists, members of that aspect of

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Speaker 1: the Axis powers.

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Speaker 2: Well, even on some of the Allied powers. There were

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Speaker 2: numerous Soviet higher echelon soldiers and military personnel that were

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Speaker 2: trying to get out because they feared what would occur

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Speaker 2: after the war. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, can you imagine after the close of the war,

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Speaker 1: Nazi officials who were captured were tried in court during

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Speaker 1: a series of military tribunals known as the Nuremberg Trials.

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Speaker 1: The Nuremberg Trials are incredibly important for human history. They're

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Speaker 1: often depicted in works of fiction and films and so on,

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Speaker 1: and they set some crucial precedents. The first tribunal began

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Speaker 1: on November twentieth, nineteen forty five, and it was aiming

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Speaker 1: to try twenty four prominent members of Germany's Nazi parties.

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Speaker 1: These people were tried in absentia because they had not

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Speaker 1: been apprehended.

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Speaker 4: There is that, Like, what an awkward proceeding that must

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Speaker 4: have been.

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Speaker 1: It's weird. People are really people are into it. I

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Speaker 1: think they had to set the precedent. And then also

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Speaker 1: if they find the person guilty in absentia, the law

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Speaker 1: still apply. So anytime that person is found, who knows,

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Speaker 1: maybe the sentence can be carried out immediately. Probably not

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Speaker 1: something that medieval, but similar who.

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Speaker 4: Do they yell at and shame in the room though?

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Speaker 4: Is they're like a proxy person that stands in for

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Speaker 4: the absent party.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, because even when that one pope dragged

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Speaker 1: the carcass of his predecessor out and had a trial

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Speaker 1: for the dead guy. They at least needed that prop

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, in any court, at least within the US,

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Speaker 2: if you don't have somebody to stand trial, then there

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Speaker 2: is no trial. So but in this it really is.

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Speaker 2: It was just a matter of needing to state, essentially,

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Speaker 2: this person is guilty of these things. It is known

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Speaker 2: now throughout the world that this guy did this.

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Speaker 1: And these were the big fish of the party, not

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Speaker 1: all of them, but many of them were the drivers,

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Speaker 1: the builders, the architects of the horrible socioeconomic engine that

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Speaker 1: Germany had created, you know, the heads of economic policy,

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Speaker 1: military of course, the people who were in charge of

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Speaker 1: the concentration camps. The surviving members of the party worked

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Speaker 1: ardently to avoid justice. And it's interesting that today we're

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Speaker 1: talking about escape because the stakes were so high that

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Speaker 1: some people who could not well, I guess the best

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Speaker 1: way to say it is, some people found only one

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Speaker 1: route for physical escape, and they took it without hesitation.

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Speaker 2: And of course you're talking about both Joseph Gerbels as

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Speaker 2: well as Adolf Hitler. And if you want to learn

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Speaker 2: more about these guys, they chose to take their own lives.

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Speaker 2: We did an episode called What happened to Hitler a

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Speaker 2: little while ago, and gosh, I think it's twenty seventeen maybe,

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Speaker 2: but you can learn about all of the theories surrounding

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Speaker 2: Hitler's death. Whether he actually.

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Speaker 1: Died then he's probably dead now either way.

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Speaker 2: Yes, but listen to that episode if you want to

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Speaker 2: learn more about that.

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Speaker 1: Figure out what people found, what people learned about the skull.

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Speaker 4: And then you had folks like Heinrich Mueller who just

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Speaker 4: kind of vanished like Kaiser Susday style.

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Speaker 1: So what happened? Where did they go? We'll tell you

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Speaker 1: after a word from our sponsors. Here's where it gets crazy.

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Speaker 1: So this was a rumor, This was a whisper for

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Speaker 1: a long time. What happened to these Nazi says? You said,

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Speaker 1: nol What happened to these ones who disappeared? Iserse style.

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Speaker 1: Over the decades since World War Two, declassified files have

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Speaker 1: proven the Nazis had an ongoing conspiracy, or it's better

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Speaker 1: to say, a nest of conspiracies, this cavalcade of secret

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Speaker 1: plans created to evade the consequences of their actions. This

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Speaker 1: is not well technically speaking, this is not a conspiracy

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Speaker 1: theory because it's not a theory. It really actually happened.

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Speaker 1: It is a genuine conspiracy.

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Speaker 2: And it's really multi like you said, multiple conspiracies, multiple groups,

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Speaker 2: and multiple plans, and a lot of them were successful.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's overlap and some worked better than others. Right,

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Speaker 1: And to a degree, this conspiracy, this let's call it

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Speaker 1: an uber conspiracy since we're using German. Right, This uber

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Speaker 1: conspiracy or medic conspiracy remains unsolved. It all goes back

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Speaker 1: to something called ratlines. What is a rat line, you

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Speaker 1: may ask.

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Speaker 4: Well, today the very escape networks, tunnels infrastructure used for

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Speaker 4: this purpose by the Nazis and fascists at the close

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Speaker 4: of the war are all collectively referred to as ratlines,

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Speaker 4: and they were essentially plans for individuals and groups to

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Speaker 4: vanish themselves, disappear themselves, leaving Germany for safe havens like

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Speaker 4: South America and also the.

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Speaker 1: US shout out to Operation paper Clip.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. But yes, they also went other places, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: like Switzerland. Yeah. And there are even a couple of

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Speaker 2: rumors of areas in the Middle East where people were

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Speaker 2: secreted away to write Syria. Yeah. But just to jump

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Speaker 2: back to paper Clip again, we've done an episode on this.

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Speaker 2: This was the specifically the United States version of a

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Speaker 2: rat line to get Nazi scientists generally scientists, but there

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Speaker 2: are a few other characters in there to the United

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Speaker 2: States for our own gain, because the mines behind some

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Speaker 2: of the terrible things that occurred were or I don't

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Speaker 2: know how else better to put this there, they were

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Speaker 2: some innovative people that were doing things that were complicated,

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Speaker 2: and the United States saw strategic advantage to using those

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Speaker 2: minds for their own advantage.

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Speaker 1: That is just it's absolutely it's it's absolutely brutal and

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Speaker 1: ruthless and machiavelian and true Nazi scientists are the reason

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Speaker 1: that human beings ended up on the Moon if you

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Speaker 1: think about it, And they're one of the reasons, right

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Speaker 1: because Operation paper Clip focused on taking thousands of German

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Speaker 1: scientists and engineers, particularly Werner von Braun.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, that's the big name, right, who.

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Speaker 1: Had done so much work on V two rockets. If

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Speaker 1: you think about it, that that expertise that the US

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Speaker 1: took does lead maybe not directly, but does lead to

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Speaker 1: the rocket technology that the US later used is to

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Speaker 1: send people into space.

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Speaker 2: In the least, it helped tremendously.

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Speaker 1: At the very least, and I know it can be

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Speaker 1: seen as somewhat of a hot take to again say

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Speaker 1: the Nazis helped the US land people on the moon.

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Speaker 1: It sounds weird when you, you know, boil it down to

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Speaker 1: one sentence maybe former Nazis. Yeah, you know what, that's

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Speaker 1: way more diplomatic former Nazis.

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Speaker 2: But again, I feel weird even saying that. It feels

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Speaker 2: like I'm downplaying it.

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Speaker 1: Well, we know that some members, especially in the scientific community,

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Speaker 1: some members of the Nazi Party were maybe members in

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Speaker 1: name because of internal political pressure, and they had to

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Speaker 1: do it to they say they had to do it

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Speaker 1: to survive. We also will never know the true story.

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Speaker 6: Ben.

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Speaker 4: You read a really great quote on a recent episode

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Speaker 4: of Ridiculous History where you said, nobody really cares about

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Speaker 4: anyone's motivation for being a Nazi. Whether you did it

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Speaker 4: on purpose or you know, were kind of strong armed

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Speaker 4: into it, You're still called a Nazi at the end

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Speaker 4: of the day. There's no like form or Nazi are

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Speaker 4: like Nazi and name only really right.

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Speaker 2: Well, the things you did, the physical acts, the ideas

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Speaker 2: that you created that you know, brought into this world

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Speaker 2: were for a means that was nefarious and did terrible

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Speaker 2: things to other people. Do you where there was a

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Speaker 2: rocket that was being shot to blow up soldiers from

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Speaker 2: you know, some other land.

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Speaker 1: Whether it's a punch card machine.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like IBM, yeah, wow, Fanta, No, I'm just kidding this.

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Speaker 1: I mean, this is an excellent point. Right. So the

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Speaker 1: reason Operation paper Clip happens without going into the full

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Speaker 1: episode we have on it that you can hear whenever

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Speaker 1: you wish available wherever you get your favorite shows. The

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Speaker 1: primary reason Operation paper Clip exists is because the US

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Speaker 1: boffins and eggheads and military leaders do a cost benefit analysis.

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Speaker 1: And before the end of World War Two, the beginnings

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Speaker 1: of the Cold War are already it's nascent, it's kicking

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Speaker 1: into gear, and the Soviet side and the US and

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Speaker 1: the West are already planning on how to become the

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Speaker 1: global hedgemon. Right, So Operation paper Clip was this cost

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Speaker 1: benefit analysis where US scientists and what did I say,

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Speaker 1: boffins and eggheads and military leaders, they know that these

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Speaker 1: these ideological orphans, right, these brilliant evil people because again

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Speaker 1: like Noel said, they are Nazis, knew that they would

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Speaker 1: be hunted around the world. But more importantly, the US

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Speaker 1: knew that if they did not spirit these folks away,

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Speaker 1: the Soviet machine would get them, and the Soviet government

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Speaker 1: did apprehend German scientists. I think the US only got

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Speaker 1: around sixteen hundred or so.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, just sixteen hundred, yeah.

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Speaker 1: Right, just sixteen hundred of those top men. To quote

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Speaker 1: Indiana Jones, right, doesn't he say that the ender Raiders

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Speaker 1: of the Lost art things. Yeah, so we're going I'm

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Speaker 1: going a little in the weeds on Operation paper Clip.

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Speaker 1: It's just very important for everyone living in the US

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Speaker 1: to know that when you hear about ratlines, when you

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Speaker 1: hear about countries like Argentina help Brazil, Yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: when you hear about these countries helping war criminals disappear,

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Speaker 1: we have to realize this is very much a glass house.

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Speaker 1: Our country did the same thing, you know what I mean,

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Speaker 1: and did it with even less of a clandestine attitude,

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Speaker 1: more of an official stance. But okay, so what is

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Speaker 1: a rat line. Let's say, now, we're not going to

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Speaker 1: pick on super producer Lull because it's his first day

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Speaker 1: with this. So let's just pick someone no one can

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Speaker 1: hate and say they're a Nazi. Okay, So what if

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Speaker 1: like Tom Hanks is you know, he got caught up

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Speaker 1: he's a Nazi and he needs to escape Germany. It's

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Speaker 1: the fall of World War two. What kind of ratline

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Speaker 1: would he use? What would he? How would he? How

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Speaker 1: does it work?

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Speaker 2: Well? So, there are several routes that could be taken,

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Speaker 2: like as far as locations that people are secreted through,

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Speaker 2: but we kind of have to talk about the functionality

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Speaker 2: of it. Right. The first thing you need to do

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Speaker 2: to get past a border, right, if you're going to

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Speaker 2: do that, is to have a false identity. And generally

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Speaker 2: that's how these things began, where you would have someone

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Speaker 2: somewhere that could get you false papers and prove that

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Speaker 2: you're someone else as you're leaving, and as you are

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Speaker 2: attempting to leave somewhere like Germany or Austria or wherever

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Speaker 2: you're heading out of, you would generally end up heading

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Speaker 2: from Germany to Spain and then eventually over to Argentina.

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Speaker 2: That's one way, or one of the major ways. The

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Speaker 2: other major way is from Germany to Italy Genoa in particular,

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Speaker 2: and also that's going through Rome. And by the way,

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Speaker 2: when you're going through Rome, you know who's helping out,

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Speaker 2: can you guess?

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Speaker 5: No?

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Speaker 2: The Old Vatican, because again that is an arm that

357
00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:30,680
Speaker 2: reaches very far and it has way too many fingers.

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Speaker 2: You'd think it only had five fingers, but that arm

359
00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:36,200
Speaker 2: just has like seventy five fingers.

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Speaker 1: You know, I'm not gonna I am not a theologian.

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Speaker 1: I would say it does seem somewhat off brand, somewhat

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Speaker 1: un christ like to assist mass murders and to assist

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Speaker 1: war criminals.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, there's a deeper connection there with the Vatican

365
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Speaker 2: and a lot of the happenings of World War Two

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Speaker 2: that we were probably not going to fully get into today,

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00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:06,080
Speaker 2: but you can look that up if you wish. But anyway,

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Speaker 2: they would also end up somewhere in South America. That

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Speaker 2: that line that goes through Italy.

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Speaker 1: And there's the four rat lines that depended on the

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Speaker 1: help of the Vatican of the Catholic Church. South America

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Speaker 1: makes sense, right because there is so much Catholic presence there.

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Speaker 2: As well as the lack of extradition treaties in a

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Speaker 2: lot of those places.

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Speaker 1: And I do want to say, I do want to say,

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Speaker 1: when we're saying the Vatican or we're saying the Catholic Church,

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Speaker 1: we're not talking about people who actually just practice Catholicism. No, no, no,

378
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,200
Speaker 1: we're talking more about the political machine, yes, rather than

379
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Speaker 1: the spiritual idea. We do have etymology of ratline. It's

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Speaker 1: a nautical term which I did not know because it's

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00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:56,760
Speaker 1: ratline sounds like something snarky that maybe someone in Western

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Speaker 1: intelligence made up.

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Speaker 2: May I guess what it is? Yes, before it and

384
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Speaker 2: then tell me if I'm WRONGY go for it. I

385
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:05,680
Speaker 2: always in my mind it's the small pathways that you'd

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00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:08,960
Speaker 2: have to get down on all fours essentially within a

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Speaker 2: ship or something to access some of the other parts

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Speaker 2: of the ship that, like the that are inaccessible.

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Speaker 1: I I like, okay, I like where your heads at this.

390
00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:29,200
Speaker 1: The original rat line was a sort of last resort passage.

391
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:32,680
Speaker 1: It was a It was a rope, these small lengths

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Speaker 1: of cord that ran between the big ropes, the proper

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Speaker 1: ropes that fixed the top of a mast to the

394
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Speaker 1: sides of a vessel. So rat lines you could use

395
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Speaker 1: them because they were horizontal as these kind of makeshift ladders.

396
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Speaker 1: So if you absolutely had to get someone up the mast,

397
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Speaker 1: they would crawl up this rat line. And there's a

398
00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:03,680
Speaker 1: terrible image here, so they crawl up right, these these

399
00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:09,520
Speaker 1: makeshift little rope ladders. Scampering up the rat line was

400
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:14,040
Speaker 1: something that desperate sailors would do when the ship was sinking,

401
00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:18,640
Speaker 1: and so the last thing to go under the surface

402
00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:21,840
Speaker 1: of the water is the mast, and so as the

403
00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:24,640
Speaker 1: water's rising, they're running up the rat line.

404
00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:27,200
Speaker 2: Okay, checks out, makes sense.

405
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:30,440
Speaker 1: And that's the people who missed out on the lifeboats.

406
00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:36,359
Speaker 1: So that's that's interesting though, because in that etymology, there

407
00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:41,359
Speaker 1: may be a deeper a deeper puzzle, right, certainly, and

408
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:44,000
Speaker 1: we'll get to that just we'll get to that just

409
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:50,480
Speaker 1: a second. But these roots that you're describing, the they

410
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:54,960
Speaker 1: start independently, right. The thing is, there's not a great conspiracy.

411
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:58,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, you'll have you'll have basically a leader in one

412
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:03,440
Speaker 2: area that that generally has access to getting those kinds

413
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:06,080
Speaker 2: of identity papers that we were kind of briefly mentioning

414
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:09,120
Speaker 2: up up at the top there. If you can find

415
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:11,560
Speaker 2: one person like that who has a few other associates

416
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:13,600
Speaker 2: and then you can link up with that group, that

417
00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:19,040
Speaker 2: then becomes essentially a cell right of network, because then

418
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:21,600
Speaker 2: those are popping up everywhere. But it doesn't necessarily mean

419
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:24,800
Speaker 2: that that network is fully connected or communicating with each other.

420
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:27,840
Speaker 2: You just have to find your node.

421
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,479
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, like a lot of a lot of dirty

422
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:35,480
Speaker 1: things that state actors and governments do tend to be

423
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:38,840
Speaker 1: less an official decision of the government as a whole

424
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:42,520
Speaker 1: and more like a faction of people or community, a

425
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 1: wheel within the wheel. Right. So, according to historian Michael Fayer,

426
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:51,080
Speaker 1: there were two alternate routes the ones you described at,

427
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 1: and they developed independently, but they eventually merged, likely as

428
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:57,960
Speaker 1: the actors in these roots learned about one another and

429
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 1: they were able to help and assist each other. And

430
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:04,560
Speaker 1: for years after the war, the concept of these escape routes,

431
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:08,639
Speaker 1: these ratlines were, as we said earlier, rumors, whispers, They

432
00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 1: were not officially confirmed. And you can see why because

433
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:18,399
Speaker 1: at the close of World War Two, when US soldiers

434
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:22,840
Speaker 1: have died, it would be terrible and very it would

435
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:26,840
Speaker 1: be political suicide for members of the US government to say, Okay,

436
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 1: we won the war. We're doing our best to bring

437
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:37,480
Speaker 1: justice to people, except for the scientists. You guys, there's

438
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,760
Speaker 1: one dude who's just great at rockets, and we have

439
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:44,879
Speaker 1: to have them. We're sorry that your children have died,

440
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:48,159
Speaker 1: but we really want to get to the moon. You

441
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:51,480
Speaker 1: can't say that stuff. You know what I mean said, well, yeah,

442
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:55,240
Speaker 1: but I'm not not the president after World War Two.

443
00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:57,760
Speaker 2: It's not a great when you said it. It's not

444
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:03,120
Speaker 2: very authoritative, guys, hear us out listen here, Wow, let's

445
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:03,640
Speaker 2: take a beat.

446
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:06,320
Speaker 1: That's I mean, it's true though, if you think about

447
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 1: like who could who on earth would go public with that?

448
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 1: So of course this was considered a wild tinfoil hat conspiracy,

449
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,520
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? And people who if someone

450
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 1: told you in the nineteen sixties, hey, I think the

451
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:28,840
Speaker 1: US government is abducting scientists, right, or I think that

452
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 1: the Pope is abducting Nazis and helping them live a

453
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 1: new life in Argentina. Then if someone told you that,

454
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 1: you probably think, wow, this guy is on LSD. And

455
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:43,919
Speaker 1: I've never never see some one tripping like that's the.

456
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:47,200
Speaker 4: Plot of a movie that exists, like a scientists are disappearing.

457
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 4: They're all being spirited away to a secret underground lab

458
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:52,040
Speaker 4: to do evil research under duress.

459
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, it sounds like Watchmen. It sounds like a whole

460
00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:57,440
Speaker 2: bunch of different things.

461
00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:01,959
Speaker 1: Yeah, the odessify there you go, similar to right, because

462
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,960
Speaker 1: even today, like even today, now that this stuff is confirmed,

463
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:10,720
Speaker 1: there are historians and researchers, not necessarily fringe historians nor

464
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 1: fringe researchers who believe that there's still something nefarious, that

465
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:21,080
Speaker 1: there is still more we need to learn about this.

466
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:25,480
Speaker 1: And one of the largest controversies in the story of

467
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 1: Nazi ratlines is something called Odessa. What is that you ask,

468
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 1: We'll tell you after a word from our sponsor.

469
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:47,080
Speaker 4: So according to author Nazi hunter and Holocaust survivor Simon Wisenthal,

470
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 4: Odessa or the Organization de Ermaligan SS ange Hourigan, was

471
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 4: founded in nineteen forty six, one year after the close

472
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:03,680
Speaker 4: of the war. Odessa Odessa is the US code name

473
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 4: for the operation, and according to Guy Walter, as a historian,

474
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:11,680
Speaker 4: US intelligence first became aware of this term when members

475
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 4: of the SS and thekzy Bensheim auerbach In tournament camp

476
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 4: used it in conversation while attempting to gain special favors

477
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 4: or privileges from the Red Cross.

478
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 1: So they would be The way this story goes is

479
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:32,000
Speaker 1: that these SS members would be trying to maybe get

480
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:35,920
Speaker 1: in communication with someone outside of where they were being held,

481
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 1: you know, get maybe some cash, may maybe even try

482
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 1: to see if they could get in touch with someone

483
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 1: who could get them a passport, and from what we

484
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:50,920
Speaker 1: could tell, the conversation something like could you send this

485
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 1: letter to my friend blah blah blah, and then say no, sorry,

486
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:56,960
Speaker 1: I can't can't send letters and they go, oh, but

487
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:05,280
Speaker 1: it's care of vote DESA exactly. So the first mention

488
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 1: of it from the Allied side shows up in this

489
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 1: memo from American intelligence and that's on July third, nineteen

490
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 1: forty six. So what was ODESSA like? What we know

491
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 1: that these smaller roots or these these more discreete organizations

492
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,360
Speaker 1: and ratlines, we already know that they exist. What's the

493
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 1: difference with Simon Weisenthal's Odessa?

494
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 2: So this author Weisenthal, he believed that Odessa was this

495
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 2: big organization. I would kind of liken it to something

496
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 2: like al Qaeda similar to that, like it's one big

497
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 2: thing that was functioning together, right, and it was mostly

498
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 2: made up of veterans of the SS. And not only

499
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 2: were these did this group Odessa, not only did they

500
00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 2: get them out of Germany initially with passports like we

501
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,640
Speaker 2: were talking about, but they would also assist these people

502
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:05,560
Speaker 2: in setting up new lives in new countries such as

503
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 2: Argentina or Brazil or wherever they were going to end

504
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 2: up in South America, a couple of times in the

505
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 2: Middle East in places like Syria. But there is one

506
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 2: major issue with this. Not everybody believes the same thing

507
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:21,320
Speaker 2: that Wisenthal.

508
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:26,000
Speaker 1: Believes, right, That's the thing. Multiple other historians say Odessa

509
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 1: as as he has described, never actually existed. Again, That's

510
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:35,720
Speaker 1: that's strange. No one is denying that the rat lines

511
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:39,600
Speaker 1: really did exist. And yes, everyone knows that some Nazi

512
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 1: officials did successfully use these roots to escape, as well

513
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:45,880
Speaker 1: as some members of fascist parties and so on. But

514
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 1: there's a complication to this narrative. Years before Simon Weisenthal

515
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:55,720
Speaker 1: of Issathal went public with his claims about Odessa, the

516
00:31:55,760 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 1: government of Austria had already been investigating the idea. It's

517
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:04,640
Speaker 1: sort of it's it's like, if you're familiar with James Bond,

518
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 1: the World's Worst Superspy, it's sort of like the concept

519
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 1: of specter. Remember this uh specter in the Bond films,

520
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 1: is this global evil organization.

521
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:20,520
Speaker 4: Every spy franchise as one, yeah and gets smart. I

522
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 4: think it was chaos And all of them are acronyms

523
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 4: that nobody remembers that.

524
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 2: They stand for. But they're generally like this quasi governmental

525
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 2: private organization, right that the aunctions outside of any government or.

526
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:36,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, and just has like a way cooler name than

527
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:40,760
Speaker 1: an actual government entity would ever have. It's like Scorpio, Chaos.

528
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 2: Spect the Octo Quad, the Octo Quad.

529
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,120
Speaker 1: I would, yeah, I would join the Octo Quad.

530
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 2: But why is it octo because the symbol is like

531
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 2: a weird eight and four together.

532
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 1: Take a roun. No, it's it's four octas.

533
00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 2: It's a quad of octas. Okay, okay, so it's it's

534
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 2: twenty four.

535
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 1: Excuse me, send us your design for octo quad and

536
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:12,560
Speaker 1: teach us how to do math. So that's but it's true.

537
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 1: Like so the argument then is that Odessa is a

538
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 1: real life version of this evil super spy Bond esque thing.

539
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:26,480
Speaker 1: And also Simon Weisenthal. In the fall of World War Two,

540
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:30,320
Speaker 1: he did not get along with West German military intelligence.

541
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 1: They butted heads all the time. That doesn't mean that

542
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 1: his claims are untrue, and it doesn't, you know. All

543
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:44,080
Speaker 1: it means is that there's a wrinkle here, and it

544
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 1: could people claiming that Odessa is not real could be

545
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:54,960
Speaker 1: seeking to discredit the Weisenthal Weisenthal organization. Or it could

546
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:56,360
Speaker 1: also mean maybe.

547
00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 2: In his.

548
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:01,680
Speaker 1: In his search to find these aped war criminals, that

549
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 1: Bisenthal started drawing connections in his own head where none existed,

550
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:07,680
Speaker 1: you know what I.

551
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:10,759
Speaker 4: Mean absolutely, I mean we all know that that's some

552
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 4: of what gives conspiracy theory circles a bad rap. Sometimes

553
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:18,319
Speaker 4: it's easy to do foregone conclusions or sort of work

554
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 4: backwards and like sort of have a preconceived notion of

555
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:23,319
Speaker 4: what something is when it maybe isn't actually that at all.

556
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:28,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, and again, the thing is, so he was definitely

557
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 1: right about the smuggling operations, the rat lines. Yeah, and

558
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:35,480
Speaker 1: we found proven ones, right.

559
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:37,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, we did. We found a whole bunch of proved ones.

560
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:39,359
Speaker 2: And I just want to add on to what you're

561
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:42,800
Speaker 2: saying there, Guys, it feels like, and this is complete

562
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 2: speculation on my part, that if Odessa really was a

563
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:52,040
Speaker 2: thing and it was kept you know, secret enough to

564
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:55,960
Speaker 2: where we are still in twenty nineteen, you know, postulating

565
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 2: whether or not it could be real, it feels like

566
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 2: it could have had ad integration somehow with one or

567
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:07,239
Speaker 2: more intelligence communities or agencies throughout the world. And what

568
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:12,960
Speaker 2: intrigues me is that the CIA was involved in several

569
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:17,160
Speaker 2: of these, you know, secreting away of Nazis along with

570
00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:19,480
Speaker 2: paper clip, you know what was occurring with paper clip,

571
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 2: but in other instances as well, to get essentially s

572
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:28,439
Speaker 2: S officials and high level targets to then flip them

573
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 2: and become informants, not only to find other SS you know, escapees,

574
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 2: but also to inform them on strategy and other things.

575
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:42,480
Speaker 2: Very tricky. So it's we're gonna, We're gonna continue down

576
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:47,279
Speaker 2: here because we know several of these names, people that

577
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:49,239
Speaker 2: escaped and people who were involved in things like this.

578
00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 2: But it just does make me feel like if Odessa

579
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 2: was real, perhaps there was a higher involvement with some

580
00:35:56,280 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 2: other powerful intelligence agency.

581
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:07,840
Speaker 1: Right, some sort of institution capable of not only moving

582
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:12,480
Speaker 1: people across the world, but also cleaning up after themselves

583
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 1: such that they could they could sweep up the trace. Right.

584
00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:24,080
Speaker 1: We also, okay, we have to say it. We already

585
00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:26,760
Speaker 1: mentioned this, but we have to say it. The Vatican

586
00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 1: did it. That's the institution that has the power and

587
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:34,839
Speaker 1: the reach to move people across I'm not being an

588
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:38,400
Speaker 1: anti papist or whatever, and I'm not saying anything bad

589
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:43,520
Speaker 1: about the spiritual beliefs of anybody who ascribes to Christianity

590
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:50,200
Speaker 1: or Catholicism. But the machine, the machine that runs that

591
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 1: organization on an earthly level, is more than capable of

592
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:59,680
Speaker 1: creating these sort of I know it sounds very Dan Brown, right,

593
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:04,160
Speaker 1: but they're more than capable of enacting this sort of

594
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 1: this sort of process, and in a very real way,

595
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:15,520
Speaker 1: the Catholic Church at this time was, you know, hand

596
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:21,879
Speaker 1: in hand with the ostensible governing powers of some developing countries, right,

597
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 1: and in some cases not all, not all. And again

598
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:30,000
Speaker 1: it's very it's very easy, I think, to connect dots

599
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:32,080
Speaker 1: where none exists. But it is true that in some

600
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:37,000
Speaker 1: cases the Catholic Church had so much influence over a

601
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:40,400
Speaker 1: country or parts of a country, that it was effectively

602
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:41,000
Speaker 1: the government.

603
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:46,759
Speaker 2: Yeah wow, Okay, well, I don't even know to say

604
00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:48,560
Speaker 2: following that, I just want to let you soapbox for

605
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 2: a while.

606
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:51,239
Speaker 1: Because I'm sorry, thanks for coming to my ted talk.

607
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:54,959
Speaker 2: Well, no, because Wend we've found this to be true.

608
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:59,960
Speaker 2: I mean, if you look at somebody like, uh, Dragonov,

609
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:03,640
Speaker 2: I don't know how to precisely pronounce the name there,

610
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:07,640
Speaker 2: but this is a person who would get false identity

611
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 2: papers like we were kind of mentioning before he would

612
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 2: get them from the let's see this an unidentified person,

613
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:19,719
Speaker 2: an American who was serving at the Eligibility office of

614
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:24,359
Speaker 2: the International Refugee Organization in Rome. Okay, so you've got

615
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:29,680
Speaker 2: a person working with an office in Rome to get

616
00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:33,960
Speaker 2: some papers, right. That only apparently that only happened for

617
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:37,120
Speaker 2: a short time because things fell through with all of that.

618
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:40,480
Speaker 2: But then he ended up working with another organization, the

619
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:45,640
Speaker 2: National Catholic Welfare Organization, and as well as the Italian

620
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:49,360
Speaker 2: police in the Italian Foreign Office, and that was again

621
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:53,800
Speaker 2: to obtain false documentation for Nazis that were attempting to escape.

622
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:57,919
Speaker 2: He would get false exit and entry visas for at

623
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:02,719
Speaker 2: least three South American countries, the Argentina that we talked about, Bolivia,

624
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:07,080
Speaker 2: even Chili and again and a lot of times. It's

625
00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:11,359
Speaker 2: not known precisely how these documents are obtained, but it

626
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:14,719
Speaker 2: is known that there were just bribes that were going

627
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:18,280
Speaker 2: on with maybe an individual diplomat or somebody who could

628
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:22,279
Speaker 2: have access to those. And it's not necessarily known the

629
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:27,200
Speaker 2: full let's say, compliance of any of these larger organizations

630
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:30,840
Speaker 2: that I've mentioned up here, but someone at a higher

631
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:34,319
Speaker 2: level or a high enough level to actually create and

632
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:36,719
Speaker 2: get these documents. Was involved because you say these weren't

633
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:37,800
Speaker 2: counterfeit documents.

634
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:40,120
Speaker 4: These were official documents.

635
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:42,400
Speaker 2: Yes, and with names with brand new names.

636
00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:45,239
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, that's the thing. It's it's like, at what

637
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:48,319
Speaker 1: point is something of forgery, you know, and at what

638
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:51,640
Speaker 1: point is it real? So, because we're an audio podcast, Matt,

639
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:53,759
Speaker 1: you just held your hands the kind of the old

640
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:57,240
Speaker 1: six in one hand, hal, yeah, and another it's true.

641
00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:00,839
Speaker 1: And we have to also remember if we're being if

642
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:04,960
Speaker 1: we're being completely objective, we have to remember in this situation,

643
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 1: with an organization the size of the Vatican or the

644
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:13,239
Speaker 1: Catholic Church, it is laughably unlikely that everyone knew this

645
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:17,319
Speaker 1: was happening. Again, these are factions, right this Dragonovic in

646
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:21,920
Speaker 1: what Croatia, right in the Nazi puppet state of Croatia

647
00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:22,399
Speaker 1: at the time.

648
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:24,680
Speaker 2: It's a Krunslav. Sorry I didn't say that.

649
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:29,360
Speaker 1: Earlier, Oh first name, Yes, yeah, And we also have

650
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:32,480
Speaker 1: to note that the Red Cross was another institution not

651
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:34,879
Speaker 1: near as big nor as powerful as a Catholic Church,

652
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 1: but they also effectively helped war criminals escape.

653
00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:45,239
Speaker 2: In the did I did I mention that Dragonovic was

654
00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:48,200
Speaker 2: a Catholic priest, He was yet I don't. I don't

655
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:51,920
Speaker 2: think Yeah, I am so sorry. I totally bury the

656
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:53,640
Speaker 2: lead there. That was the whole point. It was it

657
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:56,080
Speaker 2: was a priest doing all of that work, obtaining all

658
00:40:56,080 --> 00:41:00,520
Speaker 2: of these papers. Yeah, sorry, Croatian Roman priest.

659
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:07,000
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, yeah he was, Yeah, Kronos Draganovic. He was

660
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:14,840
Speaker 1: working in Croatia and was assisting Croatian fascists like sympathizers

661
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:17,600
Speaker 1: to the Nazi Party. Members of the Nazi Party working

662
00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:21,319
Speaker 1: in Croatia, which at that point was a vassal of

663
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:26,440
Speaker 1: larger Germany. The Red Cross, though, the big question with

664
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:30,560
Speaker 1: them is whether they whether they aided in embedded war

665
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:35,280
Speaker 1: criminals on purpose or just through the sheer, the sheer

666
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:41,680
Speaker 1: weight of incompetence, the sheer inertia of ineptitude, because they

667
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:45,919
Speaker 1: were overwhelmed with refugees. How easy is it if you're one,

668
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:49,680
Speaker 1: even as many as fifteen people, How easy is it

669
00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:53,440
Speaker 1: for you to slip through with hundreds of thousands? And

670
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 1: you know, imagine your job is every day, eight hours

671
00:41:57,160 --> 00:42:01,279
Speaker 1: a day, you sit at the at the front of

672
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:05,480
Speaker 1: a never ending line. People hand you papers. It may

673
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:08,759
Speaker 1: or may not speak a language you understand. You have

674
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:11,560
Speaker 1: three to five seconds to look at the paper and

675
00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:13,359
Speaker 1: stamp it. I'm spitballing here.

676
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:16,320
Speaker 2: I know, no, this is I totally see this working,

677
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:20,480
Speaker 2: especially if you're talking about between nineteen forty five nineteen

678
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:25,600
Speaker 2: forty eight. Maybe if you show up to a refugee

679
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:31,200
Speaker 2: servicing area like that or processing location and you don't

680
00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:34,960
Speaker 2: have official papers with you because whatever the excuses they

681
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:38,279
Speaker 2: you know where my country's literally at war. I don't

682
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:40,719
Speaker 2: have my papers with me. I'm trying to escape, right,

683
00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:44,280
Speaker 2: How how do you prove the identity of somebody?

684
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:50,239
Speaker 1: So the Red Cross had previously mentioned this that they said, yes,

685
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:56,319
Speaker 1: some Nazi war criminals or Axis criminals had escaped through

686
00:42:56,360 --> 00:43:00,960
Speaker 1: the refugee process. But oddly enough, when I went back

687
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:03,400
Speaker 1: to look at the page on the Red Cross website

688
00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:07,839
Speaker 1: where they mentioned it, it's been pulled. Yeah, maybe it's

689
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:10,359
Speaker 1: just an olderlink. I'm sure. I'm sure we can find

690
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:14,440
Speaker 1: the source out there. But they that's their argument, is

691
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:18,200
Speaker 1: that the system was overwhelmed. No one was doing anything

692
00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:24,880
Speaker 1: on purpose, but their process was supposed to have the

693
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 1: equivalent of a background check from the Allied military. But

694
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:33,480
Speaker 1: it was pretty it was pretty cursory, and they often

695
00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:38,160
Speaker 1: in the Red Cross relied on references from the Vatican

696
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:41,959
Speaker 1: that could easily be duped up or fixed. And these

697
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:46,279
Speaker 1: travel papers that people would get they were called ten

698
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:51,799
Speaker 1: one hundreds or one zero dot one hundred, and they

699
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:55,040
Speaker 1: were very easy to get because when you're trying to

700
00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:58,640
Speaker 1: process millions venicson people who have had their lives destroyed,

701
00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:02,120
Speaker 1: you know, you want to make the process as quick

702
00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:03,320
Speaker 1: as possible.

703
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:05,680
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, and you have to, I mean for safety,

704
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:09,400
Speaker 2: for health reasons. You can't just leave people in limbo

705
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:09,759
Speaker 2: like that.

706
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:16,680
Speaker 1: So with Dragonovic, he is functioning as an agent in

707
00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:21,120
Speaker 1: this chaotic time. He had what'd you say he had?

708
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:26,480
Speaker 1: He had set up travel to three different South American.

709
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:29,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, Bolivia, Argentina, and Chile.

710
00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:32,760
Speaker 1: So we know that he had some kind of pull

711
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:36,280
Speaker 1: what did they call it on the wire suction maybe

712
00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:39,319
Speaker 1: it was, Yeah, I think it was in the.

713
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:40,280
Speaker 2: A lot of suction.

714
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:43,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, they had some kind of you know, juice or

715
00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 1: whatever Dragonovic did. And this rat line was abandoned or

716
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:52,560
Speaker 1: disbanded would be a better word than what the fifties.

717
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:55,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was disbanded in nineteen fifty one and equated

718
00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:58,319
Speaker 4: some sources, it was because they were just done with it.

719
00:44:58,400 --> 00:44:59,960
Speaker 4: They'd gotten everyone out that they wanted to get out,

720
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:01,239
Speaker 4: they were able to shut it.

721
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:03,200
Speaker 1: Down, so they succeeded essentially.

722
00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:03,399
Speaker 2: Yeah.

723
00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:06,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, and this leads us to this leads us to

724
00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:10,399
Speaker 1: one of the great mysteries of World War Two, one

725
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:15,520
Speaker 1: of the real and genuine conspiracies. What happened to the

726
00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:22,000
Speaker 1: ones that got away? You can find a plethora of ideas.

727
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:24,960
Speaker 1: I'm using that word correctly. Yep, you can find a

728
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:30,400
Speaker 1: plethora of ideas about this, but some are more plausible

729
00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:33,840
Speaker 1: than others. In the Dragonovic case, we know that he

730
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:40,120
Speaker 1: assisted Klaus Barbie in escaping. This person has never been caught.

731
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:43,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, Klaus ended up getting to Bolivia, at least that's

732
00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:48,480
Speaker 2: what's believed. It's also believe that the United States ended

733
00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:54,160
Speaker 2: up helping him get there along with Dragonovic. Was Barbie

734
00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:57,520
Speaker 2: was actually captured in eighty three and then we found

735
00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:01,520
Speaker 2: out that he died in nineteen ninety one. Uh and

736
00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:03,880
Speaker 2: we found out because he was in prison in France.

737
00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:08,279
Speaker 1: There we go. Yeah, So some of these people just

738
00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:09,480
Speaker 1: got away for a time.

739
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:12,040
Speaker 2: Oh a lot. That's a That is the one of

740
00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:14,400
Speaker 2: the main stories of a lot of these guys. They

741
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:18,360
Speaker 2: end up getting identified much later in life. Several of

742
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:21,080
Speaker 2: them end up in trial for you know, in various

743
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:23,040
Speaker 2: ways they end up in trial because they end up

744
00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:25,480
Speaker 2: in a prison somewhere else, or they get used for

745
00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:29,640
Speaker 2: a time as in Oh, who, which which guy is this?

746
00:46:29,719 --> 00:46:35,879
Speaker 2: Let me jump back over here. I believe it's ALOI Brunner. Yes,

747
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:39,200
Speaker 2: I think Eloy Brunner. He is a guy who ended

748
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:45,240
Speaker 2: up in Syria and he was actually assisting the prior

749
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:49,120
Speaker 2: to Bashar al Assade, Bashar's father. He was assisting that

750
00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 2: regime in military tactics, allegedly in developing something called the

751
00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:57,800
Speaker 2: German chair, which was a torture device that would break

752
00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:00,360
Speaker 2: someone's back when they were when it was a applied

753
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:05,960
Speaker 2: to them. He was like essentially century modern furniture. No,

754
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:09,600
Speaker 2: you know, I mean real torture. This guy was developing

755
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:13,120
Speaker 2: real torture while in Syria, and he was living a

756
00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:16,200
Speaker 2: fairly comfortable life early on when he got there. I

757
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:18,480
Speaker 2: think it's sometime in the fifties when he ended up

758
00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:24,480
Speaker 2: in Syria, and he he's described as a card in

759
00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:27,719
Speaker 2: the hand of a regime. Right, So, like we were

760
00:47:27,719 --> 00:47:30,360
Speaker 2: talking about with the United States seeing strategic power and

761
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:34,680
Speaker 2: having these scientists, this guy was seen as a military

762
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:38,399
Speaker 2: strategist or a at least someone who could help them

763
00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:41,720
Speaker 2: with their means to or in their ways to achieve

764
00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:43,000
Speaker 2: greater power.

765
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:49,000
Speaker 1: Right under the name George Fisher. Yes, he helped. He

766
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:54,319
Speaker 1: helped organize the this is let's see, it's important, but

767
00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:59,000
Speaker 1: it's weird to explain. He helped organize the compartmentalization of

768
00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:02,759
Speaker 1: the intelligences, and I think he trained some of the

769
00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:06,560
Speaker 1: regime's top intelligence people. The big thing he was teaching

770
00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:09,600
Speaker 1: them was that if you truly want to be in charge,

771
00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:13,080
Speaker 1: you compartmentalized information. You don't want your left hand knowing

772
00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:15,239
Speaker 1: what your right hand is doing because one day you

773
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:17,200
Speaker 1: may have to clap them against one another.

774
00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:20,960
Speaker 2: Essentially, yeah, and only you and a very small group

775
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:21,719
Speaker 2: of people will know.

776
00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:25,000
Speaker 1: Anyway, here's this chair I made. It breaks people's backs.

777
00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:27,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really messed up and it's a crazy story.

778
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:29,240
Speaker 2: You can read more about it at the Irish Times

779
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:31,800
Speaker 2: dot com. That's where we found an article called Nazi

780
00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:36,560
Speaker 2: war criminal reportedly died in a Syrian dungeon. And again

781
00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:37,840
Speaker 2: the name is A L.

782
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:38,239
Speaker 1: O I.

783
00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:40,440
Speaker 2: S B R U N N E R.

784
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:44,280
Speaker 1: And then there are others such as Adolph Eichmann, Joseph Mengele.

785
00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:47,160
Speaker 1: There's one in particular one a touch on. This guy's

786
00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:51,840
Speaker 1: name is or was Heinrich Mueller is the last chief

787
00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:57,920
Speaker 1: of the Gestapo. His fate after World War Two. According

788
00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:04,000
Speaker 1: to the Jewish Virtual Libraries account, Mueller got away or

789
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:08,480
Speaker 1: was thought to have gotten away for decades and decades.

790
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:11,279
Speaker 1: They thought he had just slipped the net, and no

791
00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:16,320
Speaker 1: one could find him after multiple investigations. However, the official

792
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:20,040
Speaker 1: story is that in October twenty thirteen, evidence surface that

793
00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:22,720
Speaker 1: he had been buried in a mass grave in Berlin

794
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:27,320
Speaker 1: at the close of the war in forty five. However,

795
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:36,200
Speaker 1: that's this research still remains for some people a little

796
00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:40,919
Speaker 1: I don't know, arguable, Like just like we've talked about

797
00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:43,200
Speaker 1: with deaths of I hate to say it, the deaths

798
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:49,160
Speaker 1: of other historically notable, infamous or famous people. The story

799
00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:52,240
Speaker 1: doesn't die when the person does. Like there are people

800
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:56,160
Speaker 1: alive now who think Elvis Presley is somehow alive. And

801
00:49:56,400 --> 00:50:00,640
Speaker 1: Elvis Presley was a celebrity and a musician who did

802
00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:03,440
Speaker 1: briefly work with US law enforcement or attempt to.

803
00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:07,560
Speaker 5: But he was well being Asian man exactly talking and

804
00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:14,560
Speaker 5: but but these are war criminals, and we will never

805
00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:16,759
Speaker 5: know the fate of some of them.

806
00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:21,759
Speaker 1: That's why for decades, and that's why for decades after

807
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:23,960
Speaker 1: the war, you know, since before many of us were

808
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:28,080
Speaker 1: born listening today, there were people who just hunted these

809
00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:32,000
Speaker 1: folks down. And the list doesn't stop there. We have

810
00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:36,759
Speaker 1: a lot of like allegedly or is believed tos or

811
00:50:37,200 --> 00:50:41,600
Speaker 1: is suspected tos in these people's stories. We know, we

812
00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:45,400
Speaker 1: know stories of Nazis where you can follow the line

813
00:50:45,719 --> 00:50:51,239
Speaker 1: maybe to an extradition country, right, and then they disappear

814
00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:55,359
Speaker 1: and there's a few years later a report of like

815
00:50:55,400 --> 00:51:02,239
Speaker 1: an elderly an elderly German retiree expiring quietly in a

816
00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:03,160
Speaker 1: small town.

817
00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:05,759
Speaker 2: And then somess found in the attic or something. But

818
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:07,560
Speaker 2: there are also a lot of these people who end

819
00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:10,680
Speaker 2: up in a tribunal or a court when they are

820
00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:14,040
Speaker 2: in their eighties because they get found out living in

821
00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:20,040
Speaker 2: America somewhere, or living in France even sometimes, or in Argentina, Belivia,

822
00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:22,600
Speaker 2: wherever it's gonna be. There's so many story of this,

823
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:27,160
Speaker 2: stories about this and of people going through this and

824
00:51:27,239 --> 00:51:31,040
Speaker 2: finally seeing justice because they're I mean, it's alleged like

825
00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:34,680
Speaker 2: somewhere between, I don't know, the exact number, and we

826
00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:39,160
Speaker 2: can't really ever know the exact number, but thousands of

827
00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:44,440
Speaker 2: SS and German soldiers military made it out alive. We

828
00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:47,319
Speaker 2: just don't know exactly how many that is. I've seen

829
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:51,120
Speaker 2: it alleged up to ten thousand, I think perhaps even more,

830
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:56,239
Speaker 2: just through the alleged Odessa program exactly.

831
00:51:56,760 --> 00:52:02,680
Speaker 1: And there we have to leave it at this point. Still,

832
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:06,040
Speaker 1: it's twenty nineteen, and people will tell you Odessa was

833
00:52:06,239 --> 00:52:09,239
Speaker 1: or was not real, right, we have to ask ourselves

834
00:52:09,719 --> 00:52:13,440
Speaker 1: about the degree of sophistication, the degree of collaboration that

835
00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:18,480
Speaker 1: these rat lines employed. While they may have not been

836
00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:22,680
Speaker 1: members of some elaborate global secret society, those clandestine escape

837
00:52:22,719 --> 00:52:27,719
Speaker 1: routes were real, and more often than some would like

838
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:32,480
Speaker 1: to admit, these routes were also successful. Is this something

839
00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:37,760
Speaker 1: that could happen in twenty nineteen, in these our modern days.

840
00:52:38,640 --> 00:52:41,520
Speaker 1: It could. It would have to be different, though, because

841
00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:44,600
Speaker 1: surveillance technology has just evolved, right.

842
00:52:44,840 --> 00:52:49,400
Speaker 2: It would have to be more of a low level

843
00:52:49,719 --> 00:52:52,560
Speaker 2: human trafficking kind of situation, I think, where you're not

844
00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:56,239
Speaker 2: actually going to use real papers. Well maybe that's not true,

845
00:52:56,760 --> 00:52:58,759
Speaker 2: Maybe that's maybe that's not true at all.

846
00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:02,640
Speaker 1: So there's an interesting. There's an interesting dilemma here because

847
00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:08,360
Speaker 1: although there have been so many technological breakthroughs that allow

848
00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:11,560
Speaker 1: people to be closely observed, more closely than ever before

849
00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:16,240
Speaker 1: at any point in history, the control of those technologies

850
00:53:16,640 --> 00:53:19,799
Speaker 1: is also increasingly in the hand of a smaller and

851
00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:25,399
Speaker 1: smaller and smaller subset of human individuals and institutions. So

852
00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:28,520
Speaker 1: it's like there's more water coming out of the faucet,

853
00:53:28,840 --> 00:53:31,680
Speaker 1: but there are fewer people capable of turning the knobs.

854
00:53:32,080 --> 00:53:37,879
Speaker 1: And what that means is that if this is entirely hypothetical,

855
00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:40,520
Speaker 1: I'm not describing a real thing. What that means in

856
00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:47,680
Speaker 1: theory is that if our super producer Lull needed to

857
00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:52,359
Speaker 1: disappear for some reason and had the assistance of Uncle

858
00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:57,600
Speaker 1: Sam in doing so, then the Alphabet agencies could simply

859
00:53:57,640 --> 00:54:02,560
Speaker 1: erase his digital footprint. It's it's fascinating. It's something we

860
00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:05,480
Speaker 1: don't really have an answer for. Again, that's entirely speculative,

861
00:54:05,560 --> 00:54:06,759
Speaker 1: but it is possible.

862
00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:11,720
Speaker 2: Agreed, And I I don't want to talk about Nazis

863
00:54:11,719 --> 00:54:14,520
Speaker 2: anymore today? Can we? Can we stop talking about Nazis?

864
00:54:14,719 --> 00:54:16,759
Speaker 1: Yes, I'm right there with you.

865
00:54:17,480 --> 00:54:18,960
Speaker 2: Do you want to talk about Nazis?

866
00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:19,359
Speaker 6: No?

867
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:22,800
Speaker 2: No, I mean you do you want to talk about Nazis.

868
00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:26,359
Speaker 4: But you do tune into our nude podcast, Nazi Talk, Yes,

869
00:54:26,880 --> 00:54:28,880
Speaker 4: coming out soon on the iHeart Radio podcast.

870
00:54:29,239 --> 00:54:30,800
Speaker 1: Did you call it our nude podcast?

871
00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:31,480
Speaker 2: That's what I heard too.

872
00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:36,440
Speaker 1: Yes, you do it in the nude Yes, and that's

873
00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:40,680
Speaker 1: our classic episode for this evening. We can't wait to

874
00:54:40,719 --> 00:54:42,480
Speaker 1: hear your thoughts. That's right. Let us know what you think.

875
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:42,879
Speaker 2: You can reach.

876
00:54:42,880 --> 00:54:45,279
Speaker 4: You to the handle Conspiracy Stuff where we exist on

877
00:54:45,320 --> 00:54:49,680
Speaker 4: Facebook X and YouTube on Instagram and TikTok or Conspiracy

878
00:54:49,719 --> 00:54:50,239
Speaker 4: Stuff Show.

879
00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:52,560
Speaker 2: If you want to call us dial one eight three

880
00:54:52,640 --> 00:54:56,720
Speaker 2: three st d w y t K. That's our voicemail system.

881
00:54:56,719 --> 00:54:59,360
Speaker 2: You've got three minutes. Give yourself a cool nickname and

882
00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:00,920
Speaker 2: let us know if we can use your name and

883
00:55:00,960 --> 00:55:03,399
Speaker 2: message on the air. If you got more to say,

884
00:55:03,400 --> 00:55:05,960
Speaker 2: then can fit in that voicemail. Why not instead send

885
00:55:06,040 --> 00:55:07,640
Speaker 2: us a good old fashioned email.

886
00:55:07,880 --> 00:55:10,759
Speaker 6: We are the entities that read every single piece of

887
00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:12,120
Speaker 6: correspondence we receive.

888
00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:14,280
Speaker 1: Be aware, yet not afraid.

889
00:55:14,680 --> 00:55:37,719
Speaker 6: Sometimes the void writes back conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

890
00:55:37,920 --> 00:55:39,960
Speaker 2: Stuff they Don't want you to Know is a production

891
00:55:40,080 --> 00:55:44,600
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio visit the iHeartRadio app,

892
00:55:44,680 --> 00:55:47,560
Speaker 2: Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.