WEBVTT - Is Reality Real?

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<v Speaker 1>Hey, everybody, Josh and I are going on tour again

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<v Speaker 1>to basically wrap up twenty twenty three on the road

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<v Speaker 1>in Orlando, Florida first, then Nashville, Tennessee, and then wrapping

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<v Speaker 1>it up here in Atlanta, Georgia.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and you can listen to the next Tuesday's episode

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<v Speaker 2>for details on when we'll be there and where to

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<v Speaker 2>get tickets and all that stuff. But we just wanted

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<v Speaker 2>to give you guys a heads up, And if you

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<v Speaker 2>don't feel like listening to Tuesday's episode, you can still

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<v Speaker 2>get all of your info at linktree, slash, sysk, or

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<v Speaker 2>our website Stuff youshould Know dot com.

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and

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<v Speaker 2>there's Charles w. Tchuck Bryant, and here too is Jerry Roland.

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<v Speaker 2>If Jerry Roland exists and this is Stuff.

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<v Speaker 3>You Should Know?

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<v Speaker 1>Can I make a just a quick thank you? Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>make a thank you? I met Baker, Thank you?

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<v Speaker 2>Sorry, Sure, build a thank you.

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<v Speaker 1>I you know, I mentioned in that one episode that

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<v Speaker 1>I was going to put pictures of my new podcast

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<v Speaker 1>studio up, and then that episode came out thank you.

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<v Speaker 1>And I put it up and everyone was just so

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<v Speaker 1>nice and sweet, and I just want to say thanks.

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<v Speaker 1>And also I want to say sorry to you because

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<v Speaker 1>that post now just supplanted a picture of you and

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<v Speaker 1>I as my most popular ever post on Instagram.

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<v Speaker 2>Really, I'm sick of that post.

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<v Speaker 3>It just passed it today.

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<v Speaker 1>That picture when we did our secret mission out to

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<v Speaker 1>the desert in January was my previous most popular post ever.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, but you should have probably taken down this new

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<v Speaker 2>post just before it topped it. I'm not sure why

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<v Speaker 2>you didn't.

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<v Speaker 3>No, I had a counter. I was like, here it comes,

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<v Speaker 3>here it.

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<v Speaker 2>Comes, and then you had like a confetti and the

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<v Speaker 2>little noise maker.

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<v Speaker 3>That's right, and then the picture of us just dissolved.

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<v Speaker 2>No, we just aged and turned into mummies in the picture.

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<v Speaker 3>That's right, because it's not reality.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, it isn't reality. That. That's a great segue, Chuck,

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<v Speaker 2>because I have a question to kick this one off. Sure, Chuck,

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<v Speaker 2>are you hallucinating right now?

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<v Speaker 3>Unfortunately no, but philosophers might say that. I am.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, not just philosophers, neuroscientists, physicists, biologists, maybe evolutionary biologists

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<v Speaker 2>in particular, especially ones that are hipped to this whole thing,

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<v Speaker 2>would say, yeah, you're hallucinating right now, and so are you, Josh,

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<v Speaker 2>and so are you Jerry. If you do exist, you're

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<v Speaker 2>hallucinating every single thing you're looking at, smelling, hearing, touching.

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<v Speaker 2>That none of this is real. And we're talking today

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<v Speaker 2>about whether reality is real or not, and there's a

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<v Speaker 2>very deep, like mind blowing aspect to it. And I

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<v Speaker 2>feel like that's where a lot of people leave. But

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<v Speaker 2>it's just like, in this the craziest stuff these people

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<v Speaker 2>are talking about, but there's more to it than that.

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<v Speaker 2>And like, I've realized that in investigating the nature of reality,

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<v Speaker 2>we end up learning more about ourselves than we do

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<v Speaker 2>about reality. And I just find that endlessly fascinating.

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Jurassic Park. I know what you mean because

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<v Speaker 1>this article. And by the way, big shout out to

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<v Speaker 1>Dave Ruse, because you threw him this topic as if

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<v Speaker 1>it was just like, hey, do one on elephants, and

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<v Speaker 1>it was tough, and Dave even had to take a

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<v Speaker 1>rare second stab at it, because it's just really hard

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<v Speaker 1>to nail something like this down, this sort of it's

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<v Speaker 1>hard to not delve into philosophical navel gazing with stuff

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<v Speaker 1>like this. And we've covered some philosophy stuff here and there. Sure,

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<v Speaker 1>and it's always kind of fun. But you know, my

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<v Speaker 1>deal with philosophy was I did pretty I took one

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<v Speaker 1>class in college and did pretty well, and I think

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<v Speaker 1>it made an aar b. But the same thing happened

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<v Speaker 1>in that class, as it happens every time we tackle it,

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<v Speaker 1>is I'm lost and then annoyed, and then eventually he

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<v Speaker 1>kind of come around and think it's cool and understand

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<v Speaker 1>it a little bit.

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<v Speaker 2>So that's where you are with this.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>I think it's like the fifth or sixth time I

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<v Speaker 1>went through it, I was like, all right, this is

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<v Speaker 1>actually kind of cool, whereas before I was like.

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<v Speaker 3>I hate all this stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>Of course everything is that apple is real and see it,

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<v Speaker 1>I can taste it.

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<v Speaker 3>But now I kind of get it.

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<v Speaker 2>Now you know that you're dead wrong?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah? Maybe?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. And I want to point out Dave didn't have

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<v Speaker 2>to do a second attempt of this. We didn't ask

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<v Speaker 2>him to, but we had taken so long to get

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<v Speaker 2>her getting around to doing it. He's like, here I

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<v Speaker 2>revised this. Maybe you can say is that how went down? Yeah?

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<v Speaker 2>For sure?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, gotcha.

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<v Speaker 2>We definitely didn't say like I know. I was just like, okay,

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<v Speaker 2>this is you know, thanks for doing this, Dave, and

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<v Speaker 2>we'll do it when we can.

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<v Speaker 3>And he's like, I've noticed you haven't red that.

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<v Speaker 2>Very much, very much, So thank you to Dave for sure.

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<v Speaker 2>So people have been thinking about whether what we think

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<v Speaker 2>and see and feel is real for a really long time.

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<v Speaker 2>It's probably one of the first things we ever thought

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<v Speaker 2>of that was you know, kind of deep, since we

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<v Speaker 2>started eating mushrooms and developed the consciousness.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And as we go through this, you know, it's

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<v Speaker 1>it makes sense that as we go through it, it's

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<v Speaker 1>it's kind of been a timeline of different philosophers and

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<v Speaker 1>as we learned more about science, things were tweaked and

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<v Speaker 1>changed all the way up and then eventually we end

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<v Speaker 1>up with some modern day like Ted Talkers or one

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<v Speaker 1>in particular. So it kind of makes sense that things

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<v Speaker 1>would morph and change philosophically over time as we talk

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<v Speaker 1>about things like ohay, is time even real?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but if you really look at it, and especially

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<v Speaker 2>if you're paying attention later on, as we get more

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<v Speaker 2>into modern interpretations, they very striking resemblance to some of

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<v Speaker 2>the first cracks at explaining whether reality is real to us.

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<v Speaker 2>And one of the first people that we know of

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<v Speaker 2>who really tried to tackle this was Plato, and he

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<v Speaker 2>came up with a very famous allegory of the cave

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<v Speaker 2>where people are he calls them prisoners. They're situated in

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<v Speaker 2>a cave, they're chained up, they're not able to turn around,

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<v Speaker 2>so all they can do is face the back wall

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<v Speaker 2>of the cave. Behind them is a fire, and then

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<v Speaker 2>on the other side of the fire. No, I already

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<v Speaker 2>messed it up, sorry, Plato. Behind them is a fire,

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<v Speaker 2>and then between them and the fire are people who

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<v Speaker 2>can move around their puppeteers. They can cast shadows from

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<v Speaker 2>the campfire onto the wall, and all the prisoners have

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<v Speaker 2>ever experienced are the shadows on the wall. So to them,

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<v Speaker 2>that's real. But in reality, what's actually real are the

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<v Speaker 2>puppets that the people are showing behind them that they

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<v Speaker 2>can't see. So what they think is real is actually

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<v Speaker 2>just a similacrum like kind of a distilled version of

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<v Speaker 2>the actual reality. And that was Plato's take on the

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<v Speaker 2>whole thing.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, like, here's a bunny, this is Richard Nixon. H

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<v Speaker 3>what else?

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<v Speaker 2>That? But that? But yeah, that that what we think

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<v Speaker 2>of as Richard Nixon is a distilled form of what

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<v Speaker 2>actually is Richard Nixon.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah. And the key to doing Richard Nixon is and

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<v Speaker 3>the knuckles.

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<v Speaker 2>I used to do his knuckles a lot.

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<v Speaker 3>No, no, talking about shadow puppets.

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<v Speaker 2>The trick is a man's knuckle.

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<v Speaker 1>I can oh, man, I can actually do a few

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<v Speaker 1>shadow puppets pretty well.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh which ones? Which ones?

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<v Speaker 3>I can do.

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<v Speaker 1>A I just well, one's kind of a rabbity gargoyle.

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<v Speaker 1>And then I can do like an alligator, and I

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<v Speaker 1>can do a some some other long snouted animal with

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<v Speaker 1>an ear, I mean dog.

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<v Speaker 3>Sure, I can do a few things.

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<v Speaker 2>That's really great, man.

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<v Speaker 3>I used to mucky around with it.

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<v Speaker 1>And then a few you're ago, when Ruby was little,

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<v Speaker 1>there was a light casting and I was like, hey,

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<v Speaker 1>check this out, and her mind was blown.

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<v Speaker 3>I was like, still got it.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, she's where you like Plato would have loved you, kid.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, And she was like who.

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<v Speaker 1>So anyway, Plato basically is saying that the material world

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<v Speaker 1>around us and how we perceive it is not a

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<v Speaker 1>reliable thing. And what he believed in as the truth

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<v Speaker 1>is something he called forms or maybe ideas. But we're

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<v Speaker 1>going to use the word form. As we move forward

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<v Speaker 1>into Aristotle.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, as Dave puts it, that our perceived reality, according

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<v Speaker 2>to Plato, is just the shadow of an objective higher

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<v Speaker 2>truth makes sense, Yes, But what he's saying is what

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<v Speaker 2>we said, what you're like, what's in front of you,

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<v Speaker 2>Richard Nixon, your apple? It's not actually real. It's just

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<v Speaker 2>a version of that. And along came Aristotle, who was

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<v Speaker 2>a contemporary of Plato. I think he learned directly from Plato,

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<v Speaker 2>if I'm not mistaken, But in this case he disagreed

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<v Speaker 2>with Plato. He's said, Plato kind of on the right track.

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<v Speaker 2>But these things are not totally separate. And the way

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<v Speaker 2>that a shadow is not truly related to the object

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<v Speaker 2>that's casting the shadow, it's something detached from it. These

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<v Speaker 2>things are attached, like, yes, there's an actual objective, real form,

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<v Speaker 2>but the thing that we perceive is somehow tied to it,

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<v Speaker 2>and it's tied to it through what Aristotle called forms.

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<v Speaker 2>So forms were in a human, our soul, whereas the

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<v Speaker 2>organic body is the matter matter in forms.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and you know, eventually science would come to the

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<v Speaker 1>picture slowly. So if we go, you know a few

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<v Speaker 1>centuries ahead in time, the nature of reality and truth

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<v Speaker 1>as people knew it started to change once science started

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<v Speaker 1>saying you're kind of wrong about a lot of stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>And a good example Dave gives here is, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>we thought the Earth was the center of the universe

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<v Speaker 1>for a long time. Astronomy comes along and math comes

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<v Speaker 1>along and says, no, that's actually not true. So now

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<v Speaker 1>there's actually a basis for saying, hey, what you think

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<v Speaker 1>is true and what you think is reality might not

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<v Speaker 1>actually be the case. And we're starting to prove that

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<v Speaker 1>a little bit. And Galileo steps in and this is

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<v Speaker 1>in the I guess the seventeenth and sixteenth and seventeenth centuries.

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<v Speaker 1>And he comes along basically and says, and this is

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<v Speaker 1>an actual quote, I think that tastes, odors, colors, and

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<v Speaker 1>so on are no more than mere names so far

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<v Speaker 1>as the object in which we place them as concerned

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<v Speaker 1>that they reside only in the consciousness. Hence, if we

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<v Speaker 1>live in creatures were removed, all these qualities would be

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<v Speaker 1>wiped away and annihilated. Meaning in other words, and this

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<v Speaker 1>is something we're going to kind of repeat here and there.

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<v Speaker 1>It's kind of like if a tree falls in the forest,

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<v Speaker 1>does it make a sound. What Galileo's saying is it's

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<v Speaker 1>only because we've assigned these things color and odor and

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<v Speaker 1>taste that they have color and odor and taste.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, They don't inherently possess these objects. Something exists, but

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<v Speaker 2>it doesn't exist in the form that we perceive it as.

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<v Speaker 2>It's probably far more complex or at the very least different.

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<v Speaker 2>What's interesting is that quote could have been written by

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<v Speaker 2>anyone today researching that, Like, that's a very contemporary understanding

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<v Speaker 2>of what's going on, and that was Galileo back in

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<v Speaker 2>the sixteenth and seventeenth century. It's pretty cool. John Locke

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<v Speaker 2>was the next one to really kind of contribute to it,

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<v Speaker 2>and what he came up with was similar to Plato

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<v Speaker 2>and Aristotle's take. He said that there are everything has

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<v Speaker 2>two types of qualities primary qualities, which is the actual

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<v Speaker 2>objective reality of the thing, and apples just for some

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<v Speaker 2>reason keeps it's the easiest example for some reason. But

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<v Speaker 2>in apple has it has a form, it has like size,

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<v Speaker 2>it has shape, it has bulk to it. It cannot move.

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<v Speaker 2>That's a big primary characteristic of it. Like the apple

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<v Speaker 2>itself isn't inherently red. There's a certain arrangement of electrons

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<v Speaker 2>inside the apple skin or that make up the apple skin,

0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:15.600
<v Speaker 2>that absorb some kinds of wavelengths of light and reflect

0:12:15.760 --> 0:12:18.439
<v Speaker 2>back the red wavelength of light. And that's what we

0:12:18.480 --> 0:12:20.720
<v Speaker 2>see that hits our eye. But that doesn't mean that

0:12:20.800 --> 0:12:24.040
<v Speaker 2>the apple itself is red in any way whatsoever. It's

0:12:24.120 --> 0:12:25.400
<v Speaker 2>just that's what we perceive.

0:12:26.280 --> 0:12:28.040
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it doesn't even hit our eye. It hits the

0:12:28.120 --> 0:12:31.560
<v Speaker 1>receptors in our eye, those rods and cones, yep. And

0:12:31.600 --> 0:12:34.959
<v Speaker 1>it just sends dumb data messages to our smart brain,

0:12:35.080 --> 0:12:35.840
<v Speaker 1>right right.

0:12:36.640 --> 0:12:42.439
<v Speaker 2>But then there's secondary qualities, things like it's taste, it's color, shininess,

0:12:42.720 --> 0:12:46.000
<v Speaker 2>and that the secondary qualities are the things that we

0:12:46.120 --> 0:12:48.400
<v Speaker 2>lay on top of it. That that's our perception. But

0:12:48.440 --> 0:12:50.880
<v Speaker 2>that if you took away our perception, what would be

0:12:51.040 --> 0:12:54.120
<v Speaker 2>left are the size, the bulk, the inability of the

0:12:54.160 --> 0:12:57.120
<v Speaker 2>apple to move. Those things are objective and unchanging.

0:12:57.840 --> 0:13:01.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and he labeled those was called extension. And that's

0:13:01.800 --> 0:13:04.160
<v Speaker 1>the fact that it just takes up physical space in

0:13:04.200 --> 0:13:07.160
<v Speaker 1>a place. And then permanence, it does that at a

0:13:07.200 --> 0:13:10.000
<v Speaker 1>specific time, so it exists in time. And then the

0:13:10.080 --> 0:13:13.080
<v Speaker 1>last one is that it interacts with other objects. And

0:13:13.120 --> 0:13:17.080
<v Speaker 1>he called that causal powers, and that can be anything

0:13:17.120 --> 0:13:19.600
<v Speaker 1>from just the air around it to the desk that

0:13:19.600 --> 0:13:22.760
<v Speaker 1>it's sitting on or whatever, sure, which are also constructs.

0:13:23.640 --> 0:13:27.319
<v Speaker 2>Yes, we'll get to that, and then I think the

0:13:27.440 --> 0:13:32.319
<v Speaker 2>last contributor to the historical understanding of reality, at least

0:13:32.360 --> 0:13:35.960
<v Speaker 2>one of the big name, big shot ones, was Emmanuel Kant.

0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:41.600
<v Speaker 2>He was a German mathematician philosopher from the Enlightenment era.

0:13:41.679 --> 0:13:45.400
<v Speaker 2>I believe, yeah, And he basically he wasn't so much

0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:48.559
<v Speaker 2>after like, okay, what is the nature of reality? His

0:13:49.640 --> 0:13:52.640
<v Speaker 2>question was even more basic than that. It was can

0:13:52.679 --> 0:13:58.840
<v Speaker 2>we even possibly perceive actual reality? And after thinking about it,

0:13:58.920 --> 0:14:00.880
<v Speaker 2>thinking about it, really kind of humming on it for

0:14:00.920 --> 0:14:02.920
<v Speaker 2>a little bit, he said no, no, I don't believe

0:14:02.920 --> 0:14:06.600
<v Speaker 2>we ever possibly can, and that forms the basis for

0:14:06.920 --> 0:14:12.400
<v Speaker 2>the modern exploration of reality.

0:14:13.000 --> 0:14:13.360
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:14:13.400 --> 0:14:15.760
<v Speaker 1>He was one of those that pushed it even further

0:14:15.960 --> 0:14:18.800
<v Speaker 1>and said, all right, so I'm digging what you're saying

0:14:18.880 --> 0:14:22.560
<v Speaker 1>that that red apple, that color isn't really real and

0:14:22.600 --> 0:14:25.000
<v Speaker 1>the shape isn't really real. So lock what you were

0:14:25.040 --> 0:14:29.760
<v Speaker 1>saying about these primary qualities, even that it exists in

0:14:29.840 --> 0:14:34.040
<v Speaker 1>time and space, like dude, that is in your head

0:14:34.120 --> 0:14:37.480
<v Speaker 1>as well, like those don't even exist. They exist in

0:14:37.520 --> 0:14:41.400
<v Speaker 1>our minds, and so we can't even conceive of anything.

0:14:42.080 --> 0:14:43.600
<v Speaker 3>We can't know really anything.

0:14:43.840 --> 0:14:45.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he went so so far as to say, like

0:14:46.040 --> 0:14:50.200
<v Speaker 2>science and math, which describes the basic laws of the

0:14:50.320 --> 0:14:55.840
<v Speaker 2>universe quite accurately, these are constructs themselves, Like what we're

0:14:55.880 --> 0:14:59.960
<v Speaker 2>actually describing are hallucinations that we all share in common

0:15:00.400 --> 0:15:00.720
<v Speaker 2>m hm.

0:15:01.400 --> 0:15:03.400
<v Speaker 3>Or he called them appearances, yeah.

0:15:03.120 --> 0:15:05.680
<v Speaker 2>He And in fact, he called science and math appearances

0:15:05.680 --> 0:15:08.840
<v Speaker 2>of appearances. And he was saying, like, there's we're never

0:15:08.960 --> 0:15:10.920
<v Speaker 2>going to be able to figure this out. And luckily

0:15:11.000 --> 0:15:13.040
<v Speaker 2>Kant was wrong, because we do seem to be kind

0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:15.320
<v Speaker 2>of on a track of figuring things out a little more.

0:15:16.200 --> 0:15:19.640
<v Speaker 3>All right, Man, that was a robust, like thirteen minutes.

0:15:19.680 --> 0:15:20.960
<v Speaker 2>I think I think so too.

0:15:21.520 --> 0:15:24.840
<v Speaker 3>So let's take a break and we'll be right back.

0:15:28.040 --> 0:15:48.960
<v Speaker 2>Stuff you should know, Josh, and show stuff you should know? Okay, So, uh,

0:15:49.200 --> 0:15:50.800
<v Speaker 2>we've been kind of teasing it, and I think she

0:15:50.920 --> 0:15:53.800
<v Speaker 2>was probably saying it outright too. Some of these early

0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:56.120
<v Speaker 2>philosophers really kind of hit the nail on the head

0:15:56.120 --> 0:15:59.640
<v Speaker 2>as far as our current understanding goes. And one of

0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:03.240
<v Speaker 2>the big contributions or one of the big contributors of

0:16:03.360 --> 0:16:07.960
<v Speaker 2>the twentieth and especially twenty first century to exploring what

0:16:08.080 --> 0:16:13.760
<v Speaker 2>the basis of reality is was neuroscience. Neuroscience has said, okay,

0:16:13.800 --> 0:16:16.720
<v Speaker 2>well wait a minute, there's a there's something that we

0:16:16.760 --> 0:16:21.440
<v Speaker 2>all need to kind of explore. If all of this

0:16:21.520 --> 0:16:25.720
<v Speaker 2>is just in our minds, which is what's suggested, we

0:16:25.840 --> 0:16:28.600
<v Speaker 2>have ways of looking into the mind, so let's figure

0:16:28.600 --> 0:16:29.800
<v Speaker 2>out what's actually going on.

0:16:31.120 --> 0:16:34.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and this, you know, I realized that as I

0:16:34.600 --> 0:16:37.560
<v Speaker 1>have had problems with some deep philosophical things like this,

0:16:38.280 --> 0:16:40.840
<v Speaker 1>listeners to some of this stuff might like, it's not

0:16:40.880 --> 0:16:43.120
<v Speaker 1>for everyone, you know what I mean? Sure, So, like

0:16:43.160 --> 0:16:45.360
<v Speaker 1>I get it if some people are listening and being like,

0:16:45.400 --> 0:16:47.640
<v Speaker 1>wait a minute, what have you been talking about When

0:16:47.680 --> 0:16:49.800
<v Speaker 1>we say things like our eyes don't see and our

0:16:49.840 --> 0:16:52.480
<v Speaker 1>ears don't hear. But we're going to explain it in

0:16:52.520 --> 0:16:55.720
<v Speaker 1>a science y way that I think grounds it as

0:16:55.760 --> 0:16:58.520
<v Speaker 1>others have before us. This is not like our ideas, right,

0:16:58.560 --> 0:17:01.400
<v Speaker 1>but it is true that our don't actually really see

0:17:02.040 --> 0:17:05.639
<v Speaker 1>and our tongues don't actually taste. What we have is

0:17:05.840 --> 0:17:09.919
<v Speaker 1>a system, which is our body and our brain working together.

0:17:10.080 --> 0:17:15.040
<v Speaker 1>So we have all these receptors that capture this data basically,

0:17:15.400 --> 0:17:18.119
<v Speaker 1>and we send it to the brain, which is and

0:17:18.160 --> 0:17:21.359
<v Speaker 1>we're going to reiterate this too. The brain does great work.

0:17:21.400 --> 0:17:24.520
<v Speaker 1>But the brain is inside the skull. It's trapped in there.

0:17:24.880 --> 0:17:28.439
<v Speaker 1>The brain isn't eyes and ears and tongue and stuff

0:17:28.480 --> 0:17:32.320
<v Speaker 1>like that. It just works with whatever sensory data is

0:17:32.359 --> 0:17:37.480
<v Speaker 1>sent to it from those receptors, from those organs and says,

0:17:37.680 --> 0:17:41.359
<v Speaker 1>all right, here's what I think is going on in

0:17:41.400 --> 0:17:43.879
<v Speaker 1>a way that will make sense to you walking around

0:17:43.880 --> 0:17:44.399
<v Speaker 1>in the world.

0:17:44.600 --> 0:17:48.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And that's what produces our conscious experience, that translation

0:17:49.160 --> 0:17:55.800
<v Speaker 2>of electromagnetic waves and acoustic waves just hitting like our raw.

0:17:56.880 --> 0:17:59.480
<v Speaker 2>The way that I got this finally was to start

0:17:59.520 --> 0:18:03.119
<v Speaker 2>thinking of eyes and ears and tongues like antenna on

0:18:03.200 --> 0:18:06.520
<v Speaker 2>a bog same thing, right, and that the brain just

0:18:06.520 --> 0:18:09.520
<v Speaker 2>puts all that sensory information together. And one of the

0:18:09.520 --> 0:18:14.040
<v Speaker 2>ways that we've we've shown like indisputably that this happens

0:18:14.280 --> 0:18:18.200
<v Speaker 2>are through optical illusions. There's so many optical illusions out there.

0:18:18.359 --> 0:18:22.240
<v Speaker 2>One of the most famous are is the checkerboard, where

0:18:22.280 --> 0:18:25.480
<v Speaker 2>there's a cylinder casting a shadow across the checkerboard and

0:18:25.520 --> 0:18:30.000
<v Speaker 2>there's like gray, gray squares and white squares, and if

0:18:30.040 --> 0:18:32.440
<v Speaker 2>you link these two squares together, you realize they're actually

0:18:32.480 --> 0:18:36.040
<v Speaker 2>the same color. It's just the brain sees a shadow

0:18:36.119 --> 0:18:39.520
<v Speaker 2>being cast, so it's darkening one of those squares where

0:18:39.560 --> 0:18:42.720
<v Speaker 2>really it's the exact same color. And so what neuroscience

0:18:42.720 --> 0:18:46.320
<v Speaker 2>did was to step up and say, okay, let's investigate

0:18:46.359 --> 0:18:51.760
<v Speaker 2>exactly where this weird illusion is happening. And what they

0:18:51.800 --> 0:18:56.760
<v Speaker 2>found that in cases of visual illusions optical illusions, the

0:18:56.960 --> 0:19:00.800
<v Speaker 2>eyes are sending the correct data. There's seeing the illusion

0:19:00.800 --> 0:19:03.440
<v Speaker 2>for what it is. They can see that those checkerboards

0:19:03.480 --> 0:19:06.560
<v Speaker 2>are the same color. It's when it gets transferred to

0:19:06.600 --> 0:19:09.280
<v Speaker 2>the frontal lobe and the frontal lobe starts putting together

0:19:09.320 --> 0:19:13.560
<v Speaker 2>a picture of reality based on past experience and physical

0:19:13.640 --> 0:19:16.560
<v Speaker 2>laws and things like that, it says, no, that's not possible.

0:19:16.720 --> 0:19:19.960
<v Speaker 2>This is actually two different colors and produces the illusion

0:19:20.000 --> 0:19:21.480
<v Speaker 2>in our conscious experience.

0:19:22.280 --> 0:19:25.119
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and they've shown this with the Wonder machine, with

0:19:25.160 --> 0:19:31.000
<v Speaker 1>the fMRI machine and experiments. It's literally just the brain saying, well,

0:19:31.000 --> 0:19:34.040
<v Speaker 1>that ain't right. So I'm gonna tell you that it's

0:19:34.160 --> 0:19:36.639
<v Speaker 1>this based on everything that you've ever seen in your

0:19:36.640 --> 0:19:38.080
<v Speaker 1>life that really makes sense.

0:19:37.960 --> 0:19:42.199
<v Speaker 2>Right, And so the upshot of all that is we see,

0:19:42.600 --> 0:19:45.800
<v Speaker 2>we can demonstrate that the brain does not give us

0:19:45.920 --> 0:19:49.480
<v Speaker 2>any sort of accurate picture of reality. It gives us

0:19:49.560 --> 0:19:52.560
<v Speaker 2>a rough sketch, a good enough sketch of reality to

0:19:52.640 --> 0:19:55.840
<v Speaker 2>allow us to navigate the universe. So we know for

0:19:55.960 --> 0:19:58.760
<v Speaker 2>a fact that what we see and perceive is not

0:19:58.960 --> 0:20:02.960
<v Speaker 2>actual reality. The question then becomes is just how removed

0:20:03.000 --> 0:20:07.520
<v Speaker 2>from actual reality is our conscious experience as human beings.

0:20:07.960 --> 0:20:11.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and you know what, I haven't gone through it yet,

0:20:11.400 --> 0:20:14.639
<v Speaker 1>but we have an upcoming episode at some point that

0:20:14.680 --> 0:20:19.760
<v Speaker 1>I've been avoiding on stereograms, hm, the hidden eye pictures

0:20:19.800 --> 0:20:21.600
<v Speaker 1>that were such a big deal in the nineties. So,

0:20:22.480 --> 0:20:25.000
<v Speaker 1>and I'm sure that all of this stuff is in there,

0:20:25.040 --> 0:20:27.159
<v Speaker 1>because that's kind of what you're talking about, or what

0:20:27.160 --> 0:20:28.280
<v Speaker 1>we're talking about here.

0:20:28.200 --> 0:20:33.160
<v Speaker 2>Right, Yeah, Yeah, the frontal lobe taking perfectly good, legitimate

0:20:33.200 --> 0:20:36.000
<v Speaker 2>information and putting it together in wacky ways. And yeah,

0:20:36.040 --> 0:20:38.119
<v Speaker 2>I would guess that would be the basis of a

0:20:38.160 --> 0:20:39.040
<v Speaker 2>stereogram too.

0:20:39.400 --> 0:20:42.040
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, there's a sailboat there. You don't see it, look harder.

0:20:42.280 --> 0:20:44.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there's the Tasmanian Devil.

0:20:45.359 --> 0:20:46.399
<v Speaker 3>Did you ever see a Tasmin?

0:20:47.359 --> 0:20:50.359
<v Speaker 2>I don't know if I'm just imagining that because he

0:20:50.440 --> 0:20:53.160
<v Speaker 2>was huge at the same time. But I'm sure there

0:20:53.200 --> 0:20:56.040
<v Speaker 2>was a Tasmanian devil stereogram.

0:20:55.480 --> 0:20:57.800
<v Speaker 1>Or was it a mud flap of the Tasmanian devil

0:20:57.800 --> 0:20:59.000
<v Speaker 1>and it said back off.

0:20:59.000 --> 0:21:02.000
<v Speaker 2>That was just somebody saying, oh, that's right, I've had

0:21:02.080 --> 0:21:03.959
<v Speaker 2>the two guns.

0:21:04.560 --> 0:21:06.560
<v Speaker 1>I even had him in my brain. But you know,

0:21:06.760 --> 0:21:07.760
<v Speaker 1>is that is that even real?

0:21:08.359 --> 0:21:08.880
<v Speaker 2>Very nice?

0:21:08.960 --> 0:21:10.480
<v Speaker 3>Chuck, Okay, okay.

0:21:11.480 --> 0:21:15.000
<v Speaker 1>So here's to me where it gets really really interesting.

0:21:15.960 --> 0:21:19.760
<v Speaker 1>We've sort of laid the groundwork. It all makes sense

0:21:19.760 --> 0:21:22.320
<v Speaker 1>to me, hopefully, hopefully it's making sense to to listeners.

0:21:22.480 --> 0:21:25.040
<v Speaker 2>I feel like, yeah, we've been laying it down pretty clearly.

0:21:25.560 --> 0:21:26.159
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I think so.

0:21:26.680 --> 0:21:29.600
<v Speaker 1>But here's where it gets interesting to me, because why

0:21:30.200 --> 0:21:34.240
<v Speaker 1>is this happening? And the reason is, like what you

0:21:34.280 --> 0:21:36.840
<v Speaker 1>have to do is you have to You don't have to,

0:21:36.920 --> 0:21:39.360
<v Speaker 1>but it's very beneficial, I think, to look at almost

0:21:39.400 --> 0:21:43.440
<v Speaker 1>everything that we are able to do through a lens

0:21:43.480 --> 0:21:46.560
<v Speaker 1>of evolution and natural selection, so like there has to

0:21:46.560 --> 0:21:50.280
<v Speaker 1>be because in that lies a fundamental reason why your

0:21:50.280 --> 0:21:52.040
<v Speaker 1>brain is doing this. There has to be a reason

0:21:52.040 --> 0:21:54.720
<v Speaker 1>why this is happening. And it turns out when you

0:21:54.720 --> 0:21:57.119
<v Speaker 1>look at it through that lens, it makes sense. And

0:21:58.040 --> 0:21:59.840
<v Speaker 1>like I don't know if this is a I mean,

0:21:59.840 --> 0:22:03.000
<v Speaker 1>this is still philosophical stuff, but like it all makes

0:22:03.040 --> 0:22:03.760
<v Speaker 1>total sense to me.

0:22:04.320 --> 0:22:07.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, the basis of any time you bring evolution or

0:22:07.280 --> 0:22:11.480
<v Speaker 2>natural selection into the picture, you're basically saying, Okay, whatever's

0:22:11.560 --> 0:22:15.480
<v Speaker 2>going on actually improves our chances of survival. So there's

0:22:15.520 --> 0:22:19.240
<v Speaker 2>a psychologist from I think you see Berkeley. Don't quote

0:22:19.280 --> 0:22:24.480
<v Speaker 2>me on that. His name's Donald Hoffman, and he is

0:22:24.560 --> 0:22:27.320
<v Speaker 2>one of the I guess leading researchers into the nature

0:22:27.359 --> 0:22:30.720
<v Speaker 2>of reality right now. His hypotheses seem to be pretty

0:22:31.160 --> 0:22:32.280
<v Speaker 2>ocorront right.

0:22:32.760 --> 0:22:33.560
<v Speaker 3>I bet it's Berkeley.

0:22:34.200 --> 0:22:37.720
<v Speaker 2>It's gotta be, it's gotta be. The basis of his

0:22:37.960 --> 0:22:43.360
<v Speaker 2>interpretation is that we see a rough sketch of the

0:22:43.400 --> 0:22:49.760
<v Speaker 2>world around us, because that's the version of reality that

0:22:49.920 --> 0:22:53.040
<v Speaker 2>is most likely to allow us to survive, or was

0:22:53.160 --> 0:22:56.960
<v Speaker 2>over the millions of years of our evolution to this point.

0:22:57.480 --> 0:23:01.919
<v Speaker 1>By the way, he's from uc Ermine, so close not

0:23:02.480 --> 0:23:04.239
<v Speaker 1>it seemed very much like a Berkeley kind of thing

0:23:04.280 --> 0:23:05.960
<v Speaker 1>to do, for Surevine, who knew?

0:23:06.040 --> 0:23:08.840
<v Speaker 2>At least I didn't say Davis.

0:23:11.840 --> 0:23:12.600
<v Speaker 3>Or sand burdu.

0:23:14.480 --> 0:23:15.840
<v Speaker 2>I didn't even want to bring that up.

0:23:17.560 --> 0:23:18.520
<v Speaker 3>What was the last thing you said?

0:23:18.560 --> 0:23:20.760
<v Speaker 2>I'm sorry, I said that. He was saying, like, the

0:23:20.840 --> 0:23:23.480
<v Speaker 2>reason that we have a rough sketch of reality is

0:23:23.520 --> 0:23:27.000
<v Speaker 2>because natural selection has said that's the that is the

0:23:27.119 --> 0:23:30.240
<v Speaker 2>version of reality that will keep humans alive most likely.

0:23:31.040 --> 0:23:34.240
<v Speaker 1>Right, Okay, so you have to remember what we said earlier,

0:23:34.280 --> 0:23:36.800
<v Speaker 1>because this all you know ties together is that we

0:23:36.880 --> 0:23:41.359
<v Speaker 1>got to reiterate. The brain is in its skull. It

0:23:41.440 --> 0:23:45.159
<v Speaker 1>is only receiving these messages that it's given from these receptors.

0:23:45.920 --> 0:23:49.320
<v Speaker 1>Evolution is the same thing. Evolution is also blind in

0:23:49.359 --> 0:23:54.760
<v Speaker 1>a sense. Natural selection isn't favoring one thing over another

0:23:55.400 --> 0:23:58.080
<v Speaker 1>to try to get what's accurate as far as reality goes.

0:23:58.960 --> 0:24:00.000
<v Speaker 3>It's UnBias.

0:24:00.000 --> 0:24:03.000
<v Speaker 1>This natural selection is only going to favor the reality

0:24:03.160 --> 0:24:06.440
<v Speaker 1>that's going to give you that chance to survive. And

0:24:06.840 --> 0:24:10.520
<v Speaker 1>this is the point where I got it fairly confused.

0:24:11.040 --> 0:24:14.280
<v Speaker 1>But then it all came back around with the desktop analogy.

0:24:14.840 --> 0:24:18.440
<v Speaker 1>But I do have to admit this, before the desktop thing,

0:24:18.800 --> 0:24:20.800
<v Speaker 1>I was pretty lost right here and still sort of

0:24:20.800 --> 0:24:21.359
<v Speaker 1>am Okay.

0:24:21.400 --> 0:24:25.720
<v Speaker 2>So one of the examples that I've seen Hoffmann use

0:24:25.800 --> 0:24:28.560
<v Speaker 2>to describe what he's talking about at this point is,

0:24:29.200 --> 0:24:32.639
<v Speaker 2>let's say we had developed the ability to see oxygen

0:24:33.080 --> 0:24:37.000
<v Speaker 2>or levels of concentrations of oxygen in the air. Right, Okay,

0:24:37.000 --> 0:24:40.359
<v Speaker 2>we need oxygen to breathe. So in his example, the

0:24:40.400 --> 0:24:43.439
<v Speaker 2>greener the air, the more oxygen there is. The redder

0:24:43.480 --> 0:24:46.600
<v Speaker 2>the air, the less oxygen there is. Right. So, if

0:24:46.640 --> 0:24:48.919
<v Speaker 2>we had just been gifted with a view of the

0:24:49.000 --> 0:24:52.000
<v Speaker 2>actual reality, so we saw the gradient that was present

0:24:52.040 --> 0:24:54.719
<v Speaker 2>in any given parcel of air that we were standing around,

0:24:55.480 --> 0:24:58.680
<v Speaker 2>that doesn't mean that we know what gradient we want

0:24:59.119 --> 0:25:02.480
<v Speaker 2>or that will help us survive. Instead, what we were

0:25:02.560 --> 0:25:05.840
<v Speaker 2>gifted with in this analogy was the ability to see

0:25:06.000 --> 0:25:08.439
<v Speaker 2>red and stay away from that because it will kill us,

0:25:08.560 --> 0:25:10.600
<v Speaker 2>or green and go to that because that was the

0:25:10.680 --> 0:25:12.840
<v Speaker 2>kind of that was the amount of oxygen that we

0:25:12.880 --> 0:25:15.600
<v Speaker 2>know we need to survive. Right, We don't know how

0:25:15.680 --> 0:25:17.959
<v Speaker 2>much oxygen is in the air, and as far as

0:25:18.600 --> 0:25:21.800
<v Speaker 2>natural selection is concerned, it doesn't matter if we know

0:25:21.880 --> 0:25:24.119
<v Speaker 2>how much oxygen is the air. We just need to

0:25:24.160 --> 0:25:26.879
<v Speaker 2>know that that green air is where we want to be,

0:25:27.119 --> 0:25:29.199
<v Speaker 2>the red air is where we want to stay away from.

0:25:29.359 --> 0:25:32.320
<v Speaker 2>Or back to the apple example, we know that the

0:25:32.359 --> 0:25:34.920
<v Speaker 2>red apple is the one we want to eat, the

0:25:35.280 --> 0:25:37.520
<v Speaker 2>black rotted apple is the one we want to stay

0:25:37.520 --> 0:25:40.760
<v Speaker 2>away from. But then you have to take it back

0:25:40.800 --> 0:25:44.439
<v Speaker 2>to the beginning. That apple's not actually red. So somewhere

0:25:44.480 --> 0:25:47.399
<v Speaker 2>along the way, our brains and natural selection got together

0:25:47.800 --> 0:25:52.040
<v Speaker 2>to allow us to see colors. And because we could

0:25:52.080 --> 0:25:54.560
<v Speaker 2>see colors, that was the way we began to interact

0:25:54.600 --> 0:25:57.000
<v Speaker 2>with the world. Because we can taste things, that's the

0:25:57.000 --> 0:25:59.040
<v Speaker 2>way we interact with the world. There are plenty of

0:25:59.080 --> 0:26:01.359
<v Speaker 2>other ways to interact with the world. There are plenty

0:26:01.359 --> 0:26:03.640
<v Speaker 2>of things that were missing about the world because we

0:26:03.680 --> 0:26:07.320
<v Speaker 2>only have these particular five senses. But that's all humans

0:26:07.400 --> 0:26:10.440
<v Speaker 2>needed to survive as a species. That's why we don't

0:26:10.440 --> 0:26:15.760
<v Speaker 2>see the full picture of reality. You did it, thank god,

0:26:16.040 --> 0:26:17.960
<v Speaker 2>because that is the hardest part for sure.

0:26:18.920 --> 0:26:21.600
<v Speaker 1>That's the part that kept breaking my brain. You were

0:26:21.359 --> 0:26:23.320
<v Speaker 1>you had that oxygen thing in your hip pocket. You

0:26:23.320 --> 0:26:24.800
<v Speaker 1>didn't let me know about that, so I.

0:26:24.760 --> 0:26:28.160
<v Speaker 2>Did my friend, I sent it to you. You did, yeah,

0:26:28.200 --> 0:26:30.720
<v Speaker 2>But it was a flurry of emails, for sure, so

0:26:31.040 --> 0:26:31.440
<v Speaker 2>I did.

0:26:32.440 --> 0:26:33.879
<v Speaker 3>It was behind the curtain everyone.

0:26:33.880 --> 0:26:35.879
<v Speaker 1>There's there's always a few things leading up to an

0:26:35.880 --> 0:26:38.800
<v Speaker 1>episode here and there that we try to lock in

0:26:38.880 --> 0:26:41.600
<v Speaker 1>early as possible. But this one was just like, h

0:26:41.920 --> 0:26:45.600
<v Speaker 1>and I think this and probably this will help. It

0:26:45.640 --> 0:26:47.760
<v Speaker 1>was kind of like akin to like, as someone is

0:26:47.800 --> 0:26:50.520
<v Speaker 1>shoving his out on stage, they're like, and just remember, guys,

0:26:50.600 --> 0:26:51.520
<v Speaker 1>this is the key to it.

0:26:51.480 --> 0:26:54.080
<v Speaker 2>All right. They shove us out on stage, but they

0:26:54.080 --> 0:26:57.000
<v Speaker 2>make sure to flash that Shepherd took that they've gotten

0:26:57.040 --> 0:26:58.360
<v Speaker 2>already if we screw it right.

0:26:59.200 --> 0:27:02.119
<v Speaker 1>All right, So I guess that now, now we're going

0:27:02.160 --> 0:27:04.040
<v Speaker 1>to talk about what I mentioned before, which really brings

0:27:04.040 --> 0:27:08.160
<v Speaker 1>it home in a very understandable way, is the desktop analogy.

0:27:08.240 --> 0:27:10.040
<v Speaker 1>I'm having a hard time saying that for some reason.

0:27:10.359 --> 0:27:14.120
<v Speaker 1>And this is Hoffman again from Irvine and by way

0:27:14.119 --> 0:27:17.919
<v Speaker 1>of Berkeley, and here's the analogy. All you have to

0:27:17.920 --> 0:27:21.000
<v Speaker 1>do is look at your laptop and your desktop screen,

0:27:21.680 --> 0:27:24.160
<v Speaker 1>and you've got icons all over it. You've got those

0:27:24.880 --> 0:27:27.760
<v Speaker 1>those blue folders that have all the the things that

0:27:27.840 --> 0:27:31.120
<v Speaker 1>might have like a word document or a or an

0:27:31.240 --> 0:27:33.520
<v Speaker 1>MP three file or whatever's on your desktiny.

0:27:33.200 --> 0:27:36.160
<v Speaker 2>O an MP three file? Did you get it off Napster?

0:27:37.320 --> 0:27:39.240
<v Speaker 3>They did? Or MP three is not even anything anymore,

0:27:39.240 --> 0:27:40.000
<v Speaker 3>I don't think so.

0:27:40.359 --> 0:27:42.160
<v Speaker 2>I don't think they call them MP three.

0:27:42.640 --> 0:27:43.920
<v Speaker 3>I don't even know what are they now.

0:27:44.160 --> 0:27:45.600
<v Speaker 2>I think they just call them songs.

0:27:46.119 --> 0:27:51.760
<v Speaker 1>Okay, just listen to music. Oh boy, So here's the deal.

0:27:52.000 --> 0:27:54.199
<v Speaker 1>You see all that stuff, You know that you're supposed

0:27:54.200 --> 0:27:56.280
<v Speaker 1>to click on that blue folder and click on that

0:27:56.320 --> 0:27:57.960
<v Speaker 1>word document if you want to get your.

0:27:57.840 --> 0:27:58.680
<v Speaker 3>Word file up.

0:27:59.640 --> 0:28:02.440
<v Speaker 1>But all that stuff is just a user and interface,

0:28:02.520 --> 0:28:06.640
<v Speaker 1>a graphical user interface that we know how to interact with.

0:28:07.080 --> 0:28:12.040
<v Speaker 1>What's really going on is there's a system in the

0:28:12.080 --> 0:28:14.399
<v Speaker 1>guts of that computer that is hard at work with

0:28:14.440 --> 0:28:15.360
<v Speaker 1>ones and zeros.

0:28:15.960 --> 0:28:17.000
<v Speaker 3>But we wouldn't know.

0:28:17.160 --> 0:28:19.040
<v Speaker 1>How to make heads or tails of that stuff if

0:28:19.080 --> 0:28:23.119
<v Speaker 1>we didn't have these icons that represented the things that

0:28:23.160 --> 0:28:27.240
<v Speaker 1>we want to interact with on that desktop. And those icons,

0:28:27.440 --> 0:28:31.000
<v Speaker 1>my friends, is the same thing is that apple on

0:28:31.080 --> 0:28:34.680
<v Speaker 1>the desks. The apple is an icon, the same way

0:28:34.760 --> 0:28:37.520
<v Speaker 1>as that blue folder on your desktop is an icon.

0:28:37.640 --> 0:28:41.640
<v Speaker 1>It's just something that we have assigned so that we

0:28:41.680 --> 0:28:42.640
<v Speaker 1>can interact with it.

0:28:42.880 --> 0:28:46.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, because we couldn't possibly get done what we want

0:28:46.280 --> 0:28:49.200
<v Speaker 2>to get done by interacting with real reality. It's not

0:28:49.240 --> 0:28:53.560
<v Speaker 2>how we see things. We see things as like shadows

0:28:53.600 --> 0:28:58.200
<v Speaker 2>on the cave wall. Right. I love the desktop analogy, man.

0:28:58.320 --> 0:29:02.200
<v Speaker 2>There's another part of the desktop icon analogy too, that's

0:29:02.240 --> 0:29:07.520
<v Speaker 2>a consequence of this whole hypothesis. Right, That is, when

0:29:07.560 --> 0:29:13.240
<v Speaker 2>you turn your computer off that folder icon ceases to exist.

0:29:13.680 --> 0:29:16.360
<v Speaker 2>It doesn't keep running in the background. It's gone. It

0:29:16.440 --> 0:29:22.600
<v Speaker 2>does not exist. The circuitry, the software, the operating system

0:29:22.800 --> 0:29:27.160
<v Speaker 2>that produces that desktop icon that continues to exist, and

0:29:27.200 --> 0:29:31.040
<v Speaker 2>when you turn the computer back on, the icon exists again,

0:29:32.200 --> 0:29:35.440
<v Speaker 2>but in the meantime it ceases to exist. And that

0:29:35.600 --> 0:29:40.640
<v Speaker 2>is analogous to this interpretation of reality that when you

0:29:40.680 --> 0:29:43.960
<v Speaker 2>stop looking at an apple, that apple ceases to exist.

0:29:44.480 --> 0:29:48.120
<v Speaker 2>The thing that produces that apple, whether it's some grand

0:29:48.240 --> 0:29:51.960
<v Speaker 2>circuitry that we're unaware of that actually that's actually base reality,

0:29:52.360 --> 0:29:57.440
<v Speaker 2>or it's some data combined with a simple algorithm that

0:29:58.040 --> 0:30:02.520
<v Speaker 2>produces our experience of reality. Whatever produces it is still there,

0:30:02.800 --> 0:30:05.080
<v Speaker 2>just like the circuitry and the operating system in the

0:30:05.120 --> 0:30:08.920
<v Speaker 2>computers still there. But the apple doesn't exist any longer

0:30:09.120 --> 0:30:12.680
<v Speaker 2>because there's no human around to experience it. Because apples

0:30:12.840 --> 0:30:17.400
<v Speaker 2>only exist the way we see them in the reality

0:30:17.400 --> 0:30:20.280
<v Speaker 2>that humans experience. That's the only place they exist.

0:30:21.680 --> 0:30:24.000
<v Speaker 1>By the way, you said operating system, I think we

0:30:24.040 --> 0:30:25.440
<v Speaker 1>call that an OS now.

0:30:25.440 --> 0:30:27.560
<v Speaker 2>Sorry, mister MP three.

0:30:28.480 --> 0:30:31.640
<v Speaker 1>By the way, we should totally have t shirts that

0:30:31.720 --> 0:30:33.920
<v Speaker 1>say stuff you should know on the front and on

0:30:33.960 --> 0:30:37.440
<v Speaker 1>the back. It just says everything is an icon. I

0:30:37.440 --> 0:30:40.040
<v Speaker 1>think that's a great idea, but not well, that might

0:30:40.200 --> 0:30:42.560
<v Speaker 1>confusing though they might think they mean icon is in

0:30:43.920 --> 0:30:44.920
<v Speaker 1>an iconoclast.

0:30:45.040 --> 0:30:47.640
<v Speaker 2>Well, we could put in parentheses. Listen to the reality

0:30:47.680 --> 0:30:51.200
<v Speaker 2>episode and you'll know what we're talking about. Yeah, exactly,

0:30:51.240 --> 0:30:54.400
<v Speaker 2>and then we'll put okay question mark because we don't

0:30:54.400 --> 0:30:55.680
<v Speaker 2>want to boss anybody around.

0:30:56.760 --> 0:31:00.520
<v Speaker 1>So if you were confused by what you were Josh

0:31:00.640 --> 0:31:03.080
<v Speaker 1>was just talking about, we have to look at it

0:31:03.120 --> 0:31:07.840
<v Speaker 1>again through that lens of natural selection and evolution because

0:31:07.920 --> 0:31:12.360
<v Speaker 1>our brains have you know, let's talk about the apple again.

0:31:12.880 --> 0:31:15.400
<v Speaker 1>Our brains evolved to see that color, like you said,

0:31:15.440 --> 0:31:18.200
<v Speaker 1>as something that is ripe and delicious and that will

0:31:18.240 --> 0:31:21.920
<v Speaker 1>give us nutrition to a certain degree. But our brains,

0:31:21.960 --> 0:31:25.720
<v Speaker 1>like weren't evolving in isolation. Everything else was evolving along

0:31:25.800 --> 0:31:29.080
<v Speaker 1>with it, including that apple, and that apple evolved to

0:31:29.280 --> 0:31:32.240
<v Speaker 1>be read so we would eat it and eventually spread

0:31:32.240 --> 0:31:35.360
<v Speaker 1>those seeds so it could survive as well and grow

0:31:35.440 --> 0:31:36.120
<v Speaker 1>more apples.

0:31:36.680 --> 0:31:41.360
<v Speaker 3>So evolution itself is that desktop.

0:31:41.200 --> 0:31:44.760
<v Speaker 2>Right, That's what created that desktop. It's not our brains

0:31:44.800 --> 0:31:47.360
<v Speaker 2>just like we just came up with this kind of thing.

0:31:47.400 --> 0:31:50.239
<v Speaker 2>It was like working in conjunction with evolution, that's just

0:31:50.240 --> 0:31:53.560
<v Speaker 2>what we evolved to experience. And so in that sense,

0:31:53.640 --> 0:31:57.400
<v Speaker 2>this to me was super reassuring when I realized this, Yeah,

0:31:57.480 --> 0:32:01.480
<v Speaker 2>that means that there's no big mysy, there's no there's

0:32:01.480 --> 0:32:05.080
<v Speaker 2>no purposeful veil that like God or the universe or

0:32:05.080 --> 0:32:08.240
<v Speaker 2>somebody cast over us to prevent us from seeing real reality.

0:32:08.680 --> 0:32:11.600
<v Speaker 2>The reason we don't see real reality is because we

0:32:11.800 --> 0:32:15.680
<v Speaker 2>just didn't evolve to see reality that way. We evolved

0:32:15.680 --> 0:32:18.440
<v Speaker 2>to see reality in a different way. And that that

0:32:18.720 --> 0:32:21.480
<v Speaker 2>even though we know that there's other aspects of reality

0:32:21.520 --> 0:32:25.680
<v Speaker 2>we don't sense like, that doesn't mean that there's something

0:32:26.480 --> 0:32:30.320
<v Speaker 2>forever beyond our grasp. Like Emmanual Kant suggested.

0:32:31.040 --> 0:32:34.800
<v Speaker 3>I agree, all right, uh neo, I think you go

0:32:34.840 --> 0:32:36.880
<v Speaker 3>take the red pill the blue pill.

0:32:37.800 --> 0:32:40.480
<v Speaker 2>I always say, why not both exactly.

0:32:40.840 --> 0:32:41.600
<v Speaker 3>We'll be right back.

0:32:44.720 --> 0:32:53.560
<v Speaker 2>Stuff you should know and shock stuff you should know.

0:33:05.560 --> 0:33:10.360
<v Speaker 1>All right, So quick recap of Hoffman from Irvine basically

0:33:10.400 --> 0:33:13.880
<v Speaker 1>saying that, like everything that we're perceiving around us is

0:33:14.280 --> 0:33:20.840
<v Speaker 1>a construct from a combined process of these evolutionary forces

0:33:20.840 --> 0:33:26.200
<v Speaker 1>that are blind working in cooperation with the brain. And this,

0:33:26.440 --> 0:33:28.360
<v Speaker 1>you know, this can be hard to swallow to some

0:33:28.360 --> 0:33:31.960
<v Speaker 1>people that might sound kind of goofy and ridiculous. People

0:33:32.000 --> 0:33:37.800
<v Speaker 1>have come along, certainly, and this was pre Hoffman, of course,

0:33:37.800 --> 0:33:40.560
<v Speaker 1>but people have come along through the years to poopoo

0:33:40.560 --> 0:33:44.880
<v Speaker 1>all this great thinkers, even someone like Samuel Johnson, he

0:33:44.960 --> 0:33:47.800
<v Speaker 1>was an essayist in the eighteenth century and a great writer.

0:33:48.840 --> 0:33:52.520
<v Speaker 1>He had it out with a contemporary of his philosopher

0:33:52.600 --> 0:33:57.720
<v Speaker 1>named Bishop Barclay not Berkeley from UC Berkeley, and he

0:33:57.880 --> 0:34:02.080
<v Speaker 1>was basically like, dude, you can't tell him that these

0:34:02.080 --> 0:34:05.600
<v Speaker 1>things don't exist outside of the mine, Like look at

0:34:05.600 --> 0:34:08.600
<v Speaker 1>this rock right here. And he went and kicked it

0:34:08.680 --> 0:34:11.960
<v Speaker 1>and said, I refute it thusly. In other words, how

0:34:12.000 --> 0:34:14.080
<v Speaker 1>can you tell me that rock is just a construct

0:34:14.080 --> 0:34:16.000
<v Speaker 1>of my mind when I just went and kicked it

0:34:16.040 --> 0:34:18.000
<v Speaker 1>and it made a sound, and it was heavy and

0:34:18.040 --> 0:34:18.799
<v Speaker 1>it hurt my toe.

0:34:19.040 --> 0:34:22.560
<v Speaker 2>That's where we come back to, like John Locke and

0:34:22.600 --> 0:34:26.840
<v Speaker 2>Plato and Aristotle and Galileo especially getting it right, like

0:34:26.960 --> 0:34:30.400
<v Speaker 2>basically out of the gate that yes, these these objects

0:34:30.400 --> 0:34:34.280
<v Speaker 2>that we interact with in the universe, they have bulk,

0:34:34.440 --> 0:34:37.040
<v Speaker 2>they have mass, They move or they don't move. They

0:34:37.080 --> 0:34:41.680
<v Speaker 2>have primary characteristics, right, So yes, if you kick a rock,

0:34:42.640 --> 0:34:47.799
<v Speaker 2>apparently mass is part of the rock's primary characteristic, right, Yeah,

0:34:47.920 --> 0:34:51.040
<v Speaker 2>but say the color of the rock, or the shape

0:34:51.040 --> 0:34:54.319
<v Speaker 2>of the rock, or the shininess of the rock, that

0:34:54.480 --> 0:35:00.799
<v Speaker 2>is not necessarily part of reality. Yeah, Okay, I think

0:35:00.800 --> 0:35:02.799
<v Speaker 2>we've got it. Is mind blowing for sure, But at

0:35:02.800 --> 0:35:06.279
<v Speaker 2>the same time, it's just there's more to reality than

0:35:06.560 --> 0:35:09.720
<v Speaker 2>we see. But it doesn't mean that there's some great

0:35:09.840 --> 0:35:13.240
<v Speaker 2>mystery necessarily. I feel like we solve that the mystery

0:35:13.280 --> 0:35:16.880
<v Speaker 2>doesn't actually exist. It's just there's other parts of the

0:35:16.960 --> 0:35:19.839
<v Speaker 2>universe we just don't sense and there's nothing to it

0:35:19.880 --> 0:35:21.919
<v Speaker 2>other than we didn't evolve to sense it that way.

0:35:22.760 --> 0:35:25.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And well, we have great concrete examples of that,

0:35:26.719 --> 0:35:30.080
<v Speaker 1>and that is the fact that we when we see things,

0:35:30.160 --> 0:35:32.960
<v Speaker 1>what we're seeing is just a small portion of what

0:35:33.000 --> 0:35:36.960
<v Speaker 1>there is. Yeah, we see what a visible light on

0:35:37.080 --> 0:35:40.879
<v Speaker 1>the on the spectrum, like, it's pretty narrow in comparison

0:35:41.239 --> 0:35:44.840
<v Speaker 1>to the entire spectrum. But there are also gamma rays,

0:35:44.840 --> 0:35:47.440
<v Speaker 1>and there are X rays, and there are radio waves,

0:35:47.800 --> 0:35:49.760
<v Speaker 1>and there are all these things that we can't see

0:35:50.760 --> 0:35:54.200
<v Speaker 1>and detect with our human eyeballs, but we still know

0:35:54.239 --> 0:35:59.160
<v Speaker 1>they're there because we have built machines and systems to

0:35:59.239 --> 0:36:01.440
<v Speaker 1>allow us to enter act with those things like X

0:36:01.520 --> 0:36:05.040
<v Speaker 1>ray machines or radios that allow you to hear what's

0:36:05.040 --> 0:36:07.839
<v Speaker 1>happening on those radio waves, but you can't actually see

0:36:07.840 --> 0:36:11.360
<v Speaker 1>that stuff. So it's a good way of illustrating, like

0:36:13.080 --> 0:36:15.640
<v Speaker 1>what you know is just a very small portion of

0:36:15.920 --> 0:36:17.240
<v Speaker 1>what there really is out there.

0:36:17.440 --> 0:36:19.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, But also one of the other cool things about

0:36:19.680 --> 0:36:22.640
<v Speaker 2>it is we know that they're out there, and we've

0:36:22.840 --> 0:36:26.640
<v Speaker 2>learned to like build machines that can detect things that

0:36:26.680 --> 0:36:30.399
<v Speaker 2>we can't perceive with our senses pretty amazing, and then

0:36:30.560 --> 0:36:33.400
<v Speaker 2>we've built more machines to figure out how to interact

0:36:33.840 --> 0:36:37.000
<v Speaker 2>with those parts of reality that we can't since. So,

0:36:37.320 --> 0:36:41.160
<v Speaker 2>if you see an image from a James Web telescope

0:36:41.600 --> 0:36:46.319
<v Speaker 2>picture right, and what you're seeing is there is a

0:36:46.480 --> 0:36:51.000
<v Speaker 2>radio telescope picture. So the James Web telescope sees in

0:36:51.160 --> 0:36:54.120
<v Speaker 2>radio waves. We can't see radio waves, but part of

0:36:54.120 --> 0:36:59.160
<v Speaker 2>its software converts radio waves into visible light spectrum, which

0:36:59.200 --> 0:37:02.239
<v Speaker 2>we can see. So for all intents and purposes, when

0:37:02.280 --> 0:37:04.360
<v Speaker 2>you're looking at a picture of a star that the

0:37:04.440 --> 0:37:07.880
<v Speaker 2>James Webb telescope took, you're seeing that star in the

0:37:07.920 --> 0:37:10.480
<v Speaker 2>same way we would see it if we could see

0:37:10.640 --> 0:37:16.040
<v Speaker 2>radio waves. Right, So it's not like reality is forever

0:37:16.160 --> 0:37:20.040
<v Speaker 2>out of our grasp. Were becoming smart enough to learn

0:37:20.120 --> 0:37:23.640
<v Speaker 2>ways to sense it in other ways, to convert it

0:37:23.960 --> 0:37:25.680
<v Speaker 2>into things that we can sense.

0:37:26.960 --> 0:37:28.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and you know this is when I thought of

0:37:29.000 --> 0:37:31.640
<v Speaker 1>and it sounds kind of silly, but I actually got

0:37:32.000 --> 0:37:37.640
<v Speaker 1>a more a deeper appreciation of the movie Predator, right, Yeah,

0:37:37.800 --> 0:37:40.200
<v Speaker 1>from this, because when I was a kid, I saw

0:37:40.200 --> 0:37:41.920
<v Speaker 1>it and I was like, Oh, that's cool. The Predator

0:37:41.960 --> 0:37:46.000
<v Speaker 1>thing can see heat or thermo whatever would it be,

0:37:46.040 --> 0:37:51.080
<v Speaker 1>Thermo thermo properties. You can see heat, let's just say that,

0:37:51.480 --> 0:37:56.400
<v Speaker 1>and cool and stuff like that, can see temperature. I

0:37:56.440 --> 0:37:59.680
<v Speaker 1>was trying to be all fancy, which is true, and

0:37:59.719 --> 0:38:01.120
<v Speaker 1>when you kid is like, oh cool, that thing can

0:38:01.120 --> 0:38:03.440
<v Speaker 1>see temperature. But this made me think of it in

0:38:03.560 --> 0:38:05.600
<v Speaker 1>like a more philosophical way, that this thing is so

0:38:05.719 --> 0:38:11.200
<v Speaker 1>advanced that it has gained a new maybe not consciousness,

0:38:11.239 --> 0:38:15.240
<v Speaker 1>but a new ability to see the unseen, or.

0:38:15.160 --> 0:38:19.640
<v Speaker 2>It evolved in a different type of pressure that favored

0:38:20.000 --> 0:38:23.880
<v Speaker 2>being able to see infrared, so you can see temperature

0:38:23.920 --> 0:38:24.360
<v Speaker 2>of things.

0:38:24.920 --> 0:38:25.640
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, exactly.

0:38:25.680 --> 0:38:27.600
<v Speaker 2>You know, it doesn't necessarily make it more advanced in

0:38:27.600 --> 0:38:31.400
<v Speaker 2>the same way that you know, butterflies can see UV.

0:38:31.480 --> 0:38:33.800
<v Speaker 2>We can't see UV. But that doesn't necessarily mean the

0:38:33.840 --> 0:38:37.359
<v Speaker 2>butterflies more advanced than we are. It's just it evolved

0:38:37.520 --> 0:38:40.640
<v Speaker 2>to sense the world differently, right. Yeah, it's as simple

0:38:40.680 --> 0:38:42.960
<v Speaker 2>as that. But it also kind of brings back a

0:38:42.960 --> 0:38:46.520
<v Speaker 2>certain amount of humility to us that we like, we

0:38:46.760 --> 0:38:50.680
<v Speaker 2>just can't interact with parts of reality because we didn't

0:38:50.680 --> 0:38:53.080
<v Speaker 2>evolve that way, and it just kind of, I don't know,

0:38:53.080 --> 0:38:55.720
<v Speaker 2>it knocks us down a peg. I think in my estimation,

0:38:55.800 --> 0:38:58.479
<v Speaker 2>it kind of reminds us like, hey, yeah, we're pretty great.

0:38:58.520 --> 0:39:00.200
<v Speaker 2>We do a lot of really neat stuff, but we're

0:39:00.200 --> 0:39:03.839
<v Speaker 2>still animals. Don't forget that part. Yeah, I like that,

0:39:04.040 --> 0:39:06.080
<v Speaker 2>And then I think, to me, Chuck, the fact of

0:39:06.120 --> 0:39:11.880
<v Speaker 2>the podcast, oh, is that if you take Hoffman's argument,

0:39:12.960 --> 0:39:16.160
<v Speaker 2>there's an answer to that zen question of if if

0:39:16.160 --> 0:39:18.200
<v Speaker 2>a tree falls in the woods and no one's around

0:39:18.239 --> 0:39:20.800
<v Speaker 2>to hear it, like you mentioned, does it make a sound?

0:39:21.400 --> 0:39:23.840
<v Speaker 2>The answer is no, it does not make a sound.

0:39:24.080 --> 0:39:26.960
<v Speaker 2>And then even further, there's not even a tree if

0:39:26.960 --> 0:39:29.680
<v Speaker 2>there's no human around to see it or hear it.

0:39:29.760 --> 0:39:31.719
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, oh boy, I love that.

0:39:31.800 --> 0:39:34.640
<v Speaker 2>Like this, it's like, you know, it's like Bart Simpsons saying,

0:39:34.640 --> 0:39:38.920
<v Speaker 2>what's the sound of one hand clapping. M right, you

0:39:38.960 --> 0:39:41.799
<v Speaker 2>know they figured it out. I love it.

0:39:41.840 --> 0:39:43.200
<v Speaker 3>Oh boy, I tell you what.

0:39:43.360 --> 0:39:46.960
<v Speaker 1>Man, every time we and we haven't done these many times,

0:39:46.960 --> 0:39:51.640
<v Speaker 1>but every time we tackle something philosophical like this, I'm

0:39:51.719 --> 0:39:53.920
<v Speaker 1>upset for a little while, and I always come out

0:39:53.920 --> 0:39:56.680
<v Speaker 1>on the other side I think better for it.

0:39:56.760 --> 0:39:57.759
<v Speaker 2>So same here.

0:39:57.840 --> 0:39:59.479
<v Speaker 3>I'm glad you think of these things because I certain

0:39:59.480 --> 0:40:00.640
<v Speaker 3>wouldn't ass on these topics.

0:40:00.719 --> 0:40:01.960
<v Speaker 2>Oh, thank you. I appreciate that.

0:40:02.520 --> 0:40:04.600
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, i'd be like, hey, what about elephants?

0:40:05.320 --> 0:40:07.920
<v Speaker 2>That was a good one. Remember baby elephants suck their

0:40:07.920 --> 0:40:10.359
<v Speaker 2>trunk like baby humans suck their thumbs.

0:40:10.800 --> 0:40:13.960
<v Speaker 3>They have no trunk, Yeah, they do. Trunk. Trunks don't exist.

0:40:15.160 --> 0:40:17.440
<v Speaker 2>Man, you keep getting me with that one. I know

0:40:18.640 --> 0:40:23.520
<v Speaker 2>you got anything else. No, I don't either. So since

0:40:23.520 --> 0:40:26.359
<v Speaker 2>we have nothing else about this, it's time for listener mail.

0:40:28.800 --> 0:40:31.400
<v Speaker 3>All right, I'm gonna call this Smell of Vision. This

0:40:31.480 --> 0:40:32.120
<v Speaker 3>is a pretty good one.

0:40:33.400 --> 0:40:35.120
<v Speaker 1>Hey, guys, couldn't help it, but I just finished the

0:40:35.120 --> 0:40:37.759
<v Speaker 1>Smell Vision episode, and I think you've missed a real

0:40:37.800 --> 0:40:42.759
<v Speaker 1>opportunity there, or they did rather by calling it Centemah.

0:40:43.400 --> 0:40:44.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I saw that. That was a great idea.

0:40:45.520 --> 0:40:46.160
<v Speaker 3>That was a good one.

0:40:46.239 --> 0:40:48.160
<v Speaker 1>I love the show, the wide range of topics you cover,

0:40:48.640 --> 0:40:51.000
<v Speaker 1>the fun jokes in the banter, and even the occasional

0:40:51.440 --> 0:40:56.120
<v Speaker 1>Chucker's reference. Obviously, the learning beneficial component is a huge plus.

0:40:56.719 --> 0:40:59.319
<v Speaker 1>But I cannot find a term that I heard in

0:40:59.360 --> 0:41:02.200
<v Speaker 1>one of your previous shows, and I need your help. Essentially,

0:41:02.320 --> 0:41:05.319
<v Speaker 1>Josh mentioned a term that spoke to humans or any

0:41:05.360 --> 0:41:10.360
<v Speaker 1>life form will take themselves after a certain period of time.

0:41:10.760 --> 0:41:14.439
<v Speaker 1>What if humans don't take ourselves out of the event,

0:41:14.480 --> 0:41:15.200
<v Speaker 1>take ourselves out?

0:41:15.280 --> 0:41:15.360
<v Speaker 2>Oh?

0:41:15.360 --> 0:41:18.160
<v Speaker 1>Okay, Oh yeah, I miss the word take themselves out. So,

0:41:18.200 --> 0:41:20.719
<v Speaker 1>in other words, if humans don't take ourselves out in

0:41:21.160 --> 0:41:24.399
<v Speaker 1>X term, we will see a greater opportunity for long

0:41:24.480 --> 0:41:25.799
<v Speaker 1>term human existence.

0:41:26.040 --> 0:41:29.320
<v Speaker 3>It's driving me crazy. I hope you have a reply.

0:41:30.680 --> 0:41:31.400
<v Speaker 3>Do you know what that is?

0:41:31.840 --> 0:41:35.759
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? I think what they're talking about is technological maturity.

0:41:35.880 --> 0:41:37.880
<v Speaker 2>If we if we make it through what's considered the

0:41:37.880 --> 0:41:40.400
<v Speaker 2>great filter, which is all like all the ways that

0:41:40.400 --> 0:41:44.160
<v Speaker 2>we could possibly wipe ourselves out using technology before we

0:41:44.280 --> 0:41:48.800
<v Speaker 2>learn to use it wisely. If we can make it

0:41:48.840 --> 0:41:52.000
<v Speaker 2>through that, then we'll emerge on technological maturity and we'll

0:41:52.040 --> 0:41:54.560
<v Speaker 2>be basically will this live forever as a species?

0:41:55.239 --> 0:41:56.399
<v Speaker 3>Okay? I bet you. That's it.

0:41:56.400 --> 0:42:00.520
<v Speaker 1>It's gotta be and he finishes off. My wife is

0:42:00.560 --> 0:42:03.239
<v Speaker 1>seven months pregnant with our first child. You can spare

0:42:03.239 --> 0:42:05.000
<v Speaker 1>a moment for a shout out to Stephanie and baby

0:42:05.040 --> 0:42:08.040
<v Speaker 1>Coorra coming in August to make a great birthday present.

0:42:08.120 --> 0:42:11.520
<v Speaker 1>But Darren, we don't do shout outs on the show.

0:42:11.520 --> 0:42:14.080
<v Speaker 1>We get so many requests for shout outs that we

0:42:14.160 --> 0:42:14.680
<v Speaker 1>just can't.

0:42:14.520 --> 0:42:16.360
<v Speaker 3>Get to them all. So we are certainly not going to.

0:42:16.360 --> 0:42:19.799
<v Speaker 1>Shout out Stephanie and your amazing baby Coorra that's coming

0:42:19.800 --> 0:42:22.759
<v Speaker 1>in August. We're just not going to mention them. No,

0:42:22.840 --> 0:42:26.520
<v Speaker 1>not at all, so don't ask. Thanks for all the positivity,

0:42:26.600 --> 0:42:28.200
<v Speaker 1>joy and laughter that you spread in the world.

0:42:28.239 --> 0:42:33.080
<v Speaker 3>That's much needed. Your Floridian friend, Darren Nutting.

0:42:33.239 --> 0:42:35.400
<v Speaker 2>Very nice, Darren, Thank you, and thank you also to

0:42:35.440 --> 0:42:37.880
<v Speaker 2>Stephanie and Cora, who are not going to mention. And

0:42:37.920 --> 0:42:39.600
<v Speaker 2>if you want to get in touch with us, like

0:42:39.719 --> 0:42:42.360
<v Speaker 2>Darren did, you can send us an email to Stuff

0:42:42.400 --> 0:42:47.840
<v Speaker 2>podcast at iHeartRadio dot com.

0:42:48.000 --> 0:42:50.319
<v Speaker 3>Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio.

0:42:50.800 --> 0:42:54.000
<v Speaker 1>For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

0:42:54.200 --> 0:43:01.560
<v Speaker 1>Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.