Speaker 1: Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties,
Speaker 1: the podcast where we talk through some of the big
Speaker 1: life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they
Speaker 1: mean for our psychology.
Speaker 2: Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to
Speaker 2: the podcast, new listeners, old listeners. Wherever you are in
Speaker 2: the world, it is so great to have you here.
Speaker 2: Back for another episode as we break down the Psychology
Speaker 2: of your twenties, and back for another dating episode. I
Speaker 2: think we all kind of want to know the secret
Speaker 2: to love right, the secret not just to finding our person,
Speaker 2: but also making it lost and making the relationship healthy
Speaker 2: and sustainable and fulfilling for not just the next few months,
Speaker 2: but hopefully the next few years, maybe our entire lives.
Speaker 2: There are a lot of different dating tips dating advice
Speaker 2: out there around how exactly to do that. But what
Speaker 2: I've found is that if you really want true, long
Speaker 2: lasting love, if you want to find somebody in your twenties,
Speaker 2: in your thirties, whenever you are ready, instead of just
Speaker 2: rushing into any connection that passes you by, instead of
Speaker 2: really getting swept up in big romances and big love
Speaker 2: affairs that burn very very bright, go slow approach, love
Speaker 2: approach dating, any of those endeavors as kind of like
Speaker 2: a scenic drive. You're getting to know them. You're not
Speaker 2: rushing into things. It should be, you know, smooth and
Speaker 2: easy and care free and fun. And I think that
Speaker 2: you know, amongst all the noise and all the dating advice,
Speaker 2: maybe what we really need is more emotional vulnerability and
Speaker 2: emotional intimacy and that definitely comes with time. So today
Speaker 2: we are going to be talking about just that, this
Speaker 2: approached dating, the slowmance, the slow burn, low pressure first dates,
Speaker 2: all of those things. And we are also going to
Speaker 2: bring on an incredible guest, somebody who knows so much
Speaker 2: more about this than I do and can provide us
Speaker 2: some insight without further ado. Let's get into it. Today.
Speaker 2: We have on the wonderful mo They are a licensed
Speaker 2: marriage and family therapist and the Love and Connection Expert
Speaker 2: at Hinge to talk about this amazing topic. Can you
Speaker 2: introduce yourself in a bit of your work.
Speaker 3: Yay, thank you, that was a beautiful introduction. Thank you
Speaker 3: so much for having me. I am what you said.
Speaker 4: I am.
Speaker 3: I am a licensed marriage and family therapist and the
Speaker 3: Love and Connection Expert at Hinge Over the past decade,
Speaker 3: I've been working with individuals, families, couples on relationships. So
Speaker 3: relationships has been my focus of my work, and that
Speaker 3: spans the life journey. It spans a variety of life experiences.
Speaker 3: I identify as non binary transgender, so I am a
Speaker 3: part of the LGBTQI plus community. I use that them
Speaker 3: were he him pronouns, And Yeah, I am excited about
Speaker 3: all of the work I've been doing at Hinge. Basically,
Speaker 3: what I'm doing at Hinge is pairing all of that
Speaker 3: experience as a therapist, and I am joining that with
Speaker 3: hinges data backed insights around dating and relationships to offer
Speaker 3: dater's valuable advice on and off of the app about
Speaker 3: connection and creating meaningful partnership.
Speaker 2: You want to know something interesting, I didn't even I
Speaker 2: don't think I even told you this. I actually met
Speaker 2: my partner on Hinge.
Speaker 4: Wow.
Speaker 2: So I'm really excited to get into this because I
Speaker 2: honestly didn't even of course I knew how we met,
Speaker 2: but I hadn't even like clocked that that would be
Speaker 2: that like until just then. So I'm excited to talk
Speaker 2: about this as well, and not just obviously like you
Speaker 2: just have this wealth of knowledge from having literal access
Speaker 2: to our dating data, which is like insane, but also
Speaker 2: this concept that you talk about a lot of the
Speaker 2: slow burn and the slow mance, which I think is wonderful.
Speaker 2: Let's actually address the Hinge Hinges new data report firstly,
Speaker 2: because I get so many questions from people in their
Speaker 2: twenties being like, what is the correct way to be
Speaker 2: dating right now? Am I doing this right? Like I
Speaker 2: want to find the love of my life or I
Speaker 2: want something more casual, and it feels like I just
Speaker 2: can't crack the code. So can you explain some of
Speaker 2: the key findings from this report?
Speaker 3: Absolutely, I am excited to hear more about how you
Speaker 3: and your partner's man And so we released very recently
Speaker 3: our new dating report called the LGBTQI plus Date Report
Speaker 3: stands for Data, Advice, Trends and Expertise. And inside of
Speaker 3: that report, we surveyed many queer dators on our app
Speaker 3: and we found that seventy six percent of queer Hinge
Speaker 3: daters say that they wish that they had more positive,
Speaker 3: healthy examples of relationships when they were growing up. And
Speaker 3: so we know that there are often these gaps and
Speaker 3: representation for the queer community. So we're hoping to feel
Speaker 3: some of that that space with more information support celebration
Speaker 3: of queer dators and so I'm really honored to be
Speaker 3: in this role where I get to take part in that.
Speaker 3: The number one topic that we found that queer hinge
Speaker 3: daters want to learn more about is emotional intimacy. So
Speaker 3: when we think about the foundation of relationship and building
Speaker 3: long term connections, I often think, especially as a therapist,
Speaker 3: emotional intimacy is central to that. Fifty percent of queer
Speaker 3: HITGE data say that they want to learn how to
Speaker 3: build trust, and so these topics emotional intimacy, trust, not throwing, communication, collaboration,
Speaker 3: all of these things support the foundation of relationships and
Speaker 3: they're they're essential to what we're calling at hinge slowments,
Speaker 3: and I'm happy to get even more intoday.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, so I want to focus on this first
Speaker 2: thing that you said, which is that so many people
Speaker 2: want more emotional intimacy. And I do feel like the
Speaker 2: nature of dating in our twenties sometimes, like before I
Speaker 2: met my partner, it definitely felt like this is a transaction,
Speaker 2: and especially like I was on the apps and I
Speaker 2: think I got kind of very cynical about it for
Speaker 2: a while, quite cynical because I was like, everything just
Speaker 2: feels like there is either a want for something physical
Speaker 2: immediately or pretty quickly, or it's like the same conversations
Speaker 2: again and again and again that never let go much deeper.
Speaker 2: And I also think that the reason and we kind
Speaker 2: of hold back emotionally sometimes when we are in that
Speaker 2: environment is because we have so many options, right, and
Speaker 2: we don't want to get vulnerable with the wrong person.
Speaker 2: Does that concern you at all, like capacity to build
Speaker 2: long term relationships?
Speaker 4: That's a really really good question. Yeah.
Speaker 3: What I'm hearing you saying is that there are all
Speaker 3: of these different worries or challenges that get in the
Speaker 3: way of us making meaningful connections very early on. So
Speaker 3: in that at first, I was holding so much empathy
Speaker 3: and space as a therapist, and I hope energetically you
Speaker 3: felt that.
Speaker 2: I know, I really did.
Speaker 4: I feel like.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think your story and what you're saying relates
Speaker 3: to how many people are feeling or many of their
Speaker 3: many people's experiences. Many people are coming to the table
Speaker 3: with worries about whether or not they'll be received in
Speaker 3: a relationship or that someone will like them back, and
Speaker 3: so I think a lot of what prevents us from
Speaker 3: showing up authentically being vulnerable, leaning in, having the seemingly
Speaker 3: challenging conversations is this desire to be received well. So
Speaker 3: if we're worried that we'll be rejected, we'll often just
Speaker 3: prevent ourselves from leaning in. So my advice would be
Speaker 3: for daters to become really intimately aware of that voice
Speaker 3: that is creating these narratives inside of us. It's often
Speaker 3: in our voice, but the narrative itself is important because
Speaker 3: if we're not aware that we're telling ourselves you're not enough,
Speaker 3: or that we're afraid that we won't be enough, or
Speaker 3: that we're afraid that will be rejected like that time
Speaker 3: we were rejected in high school, or whatever the narrative is,
Speaker 3: then we can't go about changing it. So I often
Speaker 3: take a narrative approach as a therapist, meaning that I
Speaker 3: work on and shifting the stories that we tell ourselves
Speaker 3: that often form limiting beliefs that keep us from our goals.
Speaker 3: And so the first step in that narrative therapy approach
Speaker 3: is to really get clear on what the narratives are.
Speaker 3: So that's the first step, and I want that to
Speaker 3: be people's homework. I don't want you to do anything
Speaker 3: beyond that, just like focus on becoming aware of what
Speaker 3: those narratives are that are preventing vulnerability.
Speaker 2: And I think when we talk about dating in this
Speaker 2: day and age, just dating in general, sometimes we do
Speaker 2: mask our emotional intimacy or mask our need for emotional
Speaker 2: intimacy with physicality. Right, It's like, Okay, I can speed
Speaker 2: up this relationship physically and it feels exciting and it
Speaker 2: feels new without ever actually having to connect with this
Speaker 2: person on a deeper level. And I think that's kind
Speaker 2: of part of our inclination to just dive straight in
Speaker 2: to a new relationship. Are you kind of have you
Speaker 2: staaten that yourself? Like they need to not to say that,
Speaker 2: like take your time, like do whatever you want.
Speaker 4: It's your body, it's your choice.
Speaker 2: But sometimes like and I will say, I noticed this
Speaker 2: in myself when I was dating. It's like, Okay, I
Speaker 2: don't want to be rejected by you. Secondly, I don't
Speaker 2: want to get hot by you and like show myself,
Speaker 2: show myself as a vulnerable individual. So if we just
Speaker 2: like speed up this relationship and just like get straight
Speaker 2: to the point, like I'll never have to get hurt.
Speaker 2: Is that something that you've seen.
Speaker 4: Absolutely.
Speaker 3: I think what you're getting at is this inclination we
Speaker 3: have to jump into relationships when we're feeling like someone
Speaker 3: likes us back.
Speaker 4: That's how I categorize it.
Speaker 3: And I like to break this down a bit because
Speaker 3: I think that that's one reason why that's happening, and
Speaker 3: then I think that there are two other, very common.
Speaker 4: Reasons why that's current.
Speaker 3: So if so, I guess, follow me if you will.
Speaker 3: The first one being like, it feels good to be
Speaker 3: liked back. And I don't know how many people listening
Speaker 3: to the show could remember Teddy Pendergrast if you even
Speaker 3: know who that is.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 3: If you do, you probably have baby baby boomer parents
Speaker 3: like I do. But he has this show that's I'm sorry.
Speaker 3: He has this song that's called when Somebody Loves You Back,
Speaker 3: and it's one of my favorite old school songs. But
Speaker 3: the line goes, it feels good loving somebody when somebody
Speaker 3: loves you back, and it's just so smooth the way
Speaker 3: he sings it. But but here it's accurate. When you
Speaker 3: when you like someone, it just feels good. So I
Speaker 3: think that that first kind of person that we're thinking
Speaker 3: about here is a person who desires their affection to
Speaker 3: be returned, and so they dive in pretty quickly because
Speaker 3: they desire that feedback, those signs that they're that person's
Speaker 3: into them, And I think what they really want is reciprocity,
Speaker 3: and some of the ways in which we can slow
Speaker 3: the relationship down to get that reciprocity is to have
Speaker 3: those conversations about how the person the other person feels
Speaker 3: and initiate those conversations rather than just kind of trying
Speaker 3: to ride the wave of emotions that kind of takes
Speaker 3: the relationship at top speed. I think the second kind
Speaker 3: of person that shows up, in my opinion, is a
Speaker 3: person that has those fears of the rejection that we
Speaker 3: were talking about. So a person might show up with
Speaker 3: these fears around rejection, but really what I think they
Speaker 3: want is some type of safety or security. And the
Speaker 3: way that we can slow relationships down for people who
Speaker 3: are having the security need is to have those initial
Speaker 3: conversations pretty early on about where things are headed. So
Speaker 3: that means we can maybe initiate a conversation and say, hey,
Speaker 3: so you know, at what point in your dating journey
Speaker 3: do you typically have conversations about what are we like?
Speaker 3: How when do you have the what are we? Conversation?
Speaker 4: It could be very general. I do not suggest saying
Speaker 4: very early on what are we?
Speaker 3: I am saying, have a general conversation that can slow
Speaker 3: things down and make it a co creation around the
Speaker 3: relationship future versus leaving that up to chance or leaving
Speaker 3: it to being one person's responsibility. And then the third
Speaker 3: person that I like to think about when I think
Speaker 3: about rushing in pretty quickly is a person who's just
Speaker 3: trying to go with the flow. I think go with
Speaker 3: the flow people in this regard are worried about making
Speaker 3: things too complicated, and often I think that they have
Speaker 3: a need around authenticity. They want the other person to
Speaker 3: be themselves and they want to be received for being themselves,
Speaker 3: and so by going with the flow, they think they're
Speaker 3: accomplishing this. I think the risk here is that we
Speaker 3: can ignore our own authenticity and what we want in
Speaker 3: terms of pacing and timing because we're afraid to have
Speaker 3: a conflict or afraid to speak up. So I typically
Speaker 3: encourage daters to slow things down when they're experiencing this
Speaker 3: by having necessary conversations around the relationship through ease and
Speaker 3: compassion if we want there to be ease in the relationship,
Speaker 3: and that's our primary desire, keep going with the flow
Speaker 3: in how you're having the conversation. Be compassionate, be easy,
Speaker 3: be too in the conversation while still being vulnerable and
Speaker 3: open hearted. And I think that accomplishes what we're really
Speaker 3: trying to get at. So I know I said a
Speaker 3: lot there, but I hope that everybody has their three
Speaker 3: people in mind and that they're checking where they are.
Speaker 4: In that.
Speaker 2: You definitely said a lot, but you said a lot
Speaker 2: that was like all of it was so helpful, And
Speaker 2: you know what I really resonated with when you were
Speaker 2: saying that was also like the individual who was anxiously attached.
Speaker 2: Right When there are signs that someone is pulling away
Speaker 2: and might be putting distance between you and them for
Speaker 2: whatever reason. Maybe they are busy at work, maybe they
Speaker 2: are trying to protect themselves, trying to not get hurt,
Speaker 2: we tend to become quite clinging, and we tend to
Speaker 2: like the more they try and pull away, the more
Speaker 2: we try and pull them closer, which inevitably ends up
Speaker 2: kind of backfiring, right right, Like It's Yeah, I also
Speaker 2: think that's part of the inclination to really speed up
Speaker 2: relationships is I want this person to fall in love
Speaker 2: with me as soon as possible, so that we're out
Speaker 2: of this a weird, awkward stage where I don't feel
Speaker 2: like I can trust them, where I don't have a label,
Speaker 2: where I don't have commitment, and all of those things
Speaker 2: leave me vulnerable to being hurt. So I think, at
Speaker 2: the end of the day, like that all of it
Speaker 2: comes down to I don't want to be hurt. I
Speaker 2: want my needs met, and perhaps I like the feeling
Speaker 2: of being loved back, and so like, let's get to
Speaker 2: that point as soon as possible. And I also liked
Speaker 2: what you said about having a conversation, So I'll talk
Speaker 2: about my partner Tom in this instance. When we first met,
Speaker 2: I had just had like a string of relationships in
Speaker 2: which there was no commitment. And we talk about, you know,
Speaker 2: the slowmance, which we'll get to in a second, And
Speaker 2: there is a difference between going slow and also having
Speaker 2: absolutely no idea what is going on, and you know
Speaker 2: what I mean, and like the timeline just being like
Speaker 2: what this neither ends or begins, so you know what
Speaker 2: I mean. And I think that when I met him,
Speaker 2: I was so so aware and so worried about that
Speaker 2: happening again. And I also kind of knew that if
Speaker 2: I was to be like, so, what are we like
Speaker 2: within two dates, there was a good chance that he
Speaker 2: was going to be like, Okay, this girl has absolutely
Speaker 2: no chill and fleet, which I totally got. And so
Speaker 2: I think it was like around our fifth or sixth date,
Speaker 2: and I actually remember where it was. We were in
Speaker 2: Bondai in Sydney, and we were eating sushi at a
Speaker 2: sushi train and instead of asking the question like what
Speaker 2: a wea? I simply was like, this is what I'm
Speaker 2: looking for. And I'm not asking I'm not asking you
Speaker 2: to tell me what you feel about that. I'm not
Speaker 2: asking you to give me an answer. I'm just saying, like,
Speaker 2: it's up to you. This is I'm going to give
Speaker 2: you the full information. I'm looking for something serious. I
Speaker 2: really like you. I think this is going amazingly well.
Speaker 2: And if you don't think that way, if that's like
Speaker 2: not something that we're on the same page on, maybe
Speaker 2: like we should rethink. And he didn't give me an
Speaker 2: answer straight away, and yes that made me anxious, but
Speaker 2: he was like he was like, listen, like, I'm really
Speaker 2: up to seeing where this goes. I obviously really like you,
Speaker 2: but I don't want to put too much pressure on
Speaker 2: it right now. Is that okay? Can I think about it?
Speaker 2: And I was like, yeah, of course you can think
Speaker 2: about it, and you know, flash forward, we're still together
Speaker 2: and like very much in love. So I think that
Speaker 2: what would you say to people who were like, if
Speaker 2: I ask too soon, if I want some form of confirmation,
Speaker 2: if I need some form of confirmation, the relationship might end.
Speaker 2: What would you say to.
Speaker 3: That, Yeah, well one year story is like very powerful
Speaker 3: because there it's the imagery that's coming to mind, is
Speaker 3: the idea that having that conversation didn't create this a
Speaker 3: period on the relationship. It wasn't like you offered what
Speaker 3: you want and then you were just done with him
Speaker 3: because he didn't want the same things. There was like
Speaker 3: this comment, there's like this end that's in interjected, and
Speaker 3: you keep going with the story and now you have
Speaker 3: been together. And so if I'm offering any advice, it's
Speaker 3: really to do a lot more of what you did,
Speaker 3: which is to create that space for that conversation to
Speaker 3: allow it to be ongoing. It doesn't have to be
Speaker 3: this one time thing. I think that's often how it's
Speaker 3: presented in the world or in movies that you kind
Speaker 3: of say, what are we People say yes or no
Speaker 3: and that's it. But it's not yes or no. It's
Speaker 3: like more great than that, Like love is more complex
Speaker 3: than that. I can really relate to this story. I
Speaker 3: can relate to the first time I asked my now
Speaker 3: wife to be my girlfriend, and she was like, h
Speaker 3: ask me again in the morning, Like she don't feel
Speaker 3: like she was she had clarity in the moments, so
Speaker 3: she's like, ask me again in the morning. And this
Speaker 3: actually came up again when I asked her to marry me.
Speaker 3: She was like, yes, but no right now. And I
Speaker 3: was like kind of devastated in the moment because I
Speaker 3: had only known it's a yes or no. And so
Speaker 3: we went to therapy. In one session, the therapist is like,
Speaker 3: you know, you can just have a long engagement, and
Speaker 3: that opened my mind to this comma where there was
Speaker 3: a period I'm thinking we're gonna have to end our
Speaker 3: relationship and the therapist is gonna tell me, yeah, you know,
Speaker 3: she's not the one. And now we've been together, our
Speaker 3: dating anniversary is going to be ten years come like
Speaker 3: October thirty first, and so it's been a long time
Speaker 3: of like commas and ends. And so my advice for
Speaker 3: anyone around having these conversations is that they really enrich
Speaker 3: the relationship. They build this really strong foundation for your
Speaker 3: relationship future if you lean in, if you allow yourself
Speaker 3: to be vulnerable, and if you allow yourself to keep
Speaker 3: having the conversation because it's not a period.
Speaker 2: I absolutely adore that, like the idea that the timeline
Speaker 2: needs to be linear and consecutive, and like, okay, so
Speaker 2: what dating and then you're my girlfriend or my boyfriend
Speaker 2: and my partner and then okay, this time and there
Speaker 2: cannot be any hesitation in that time, and there cannot
Speaker 2: be any moments of needing to maybe slow things down
Speaker 2: or to actually think about things. And I'm sure people
Speaker 2: are listening to this being like no, you know, if
Speaker 2: you know you know no.
Speaker 3: I love your earlier example of how there needs to
Speaker 3: be boundaries because you know there could be scenarios where
Speaker 3: you know there you said there was no starter or
Speaker 3: no ends. I love as you said that, because some
Speaker 3: relationships can feel like they don't have any time boundaries
Speaker 3: at all. And I certainly think in those instances it's
Speaker 3: important to get clear on if you're even working toward
Speaker 3: the same things, if you even want the same things.
Speaker 3: But in these scenarios it's a matter of timing. Think
Speaker 3: you'll know that by having the conversation.
Speaker 2: No, exactly, I completely agree. And also I think that
Speaker 2: everyone's relationship is different, right and just because and sometimes
Speaker 2: I think I'm scared for the people who experience that
Speaker 2: really fast intensity, like hyper intense early days, and the
Speaker 2: saying is always like what burns brightest, burns out quickest.
Speaker 2: I think that's the way to go. And I think
Speaker 2: our society has very much sold us this idea of
Speaker 2: romantic love as being this like when you know you
Speaker 2: know a thing, you're immediately Like I saw this quote
Speaker 2: the other day. It's like when you see them in
Speaker 2: your future, you want the future to start right now,
Speaker 2: This idea of like passion and intensity and like attraction.
Speaker 2: And yes, of course I want to move in with you,
Speaker 2: and of course I want to fall in love and
Speaker 2: let's have children. But what are the benefits that you
Speaker 2: have seen? What are the benefits for the longevity and
Speaker 2: the sustainability and the health of a relationship from embracing
Speaker 2: a slomance from kind of slowing it down, not going
Speaker 2: with the flow, but just letting taking the scenic route.
Speaker 2: Let's say it that way.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a beautiful and powerful, poignant question. We think
Speaker 3: about longevity and relationship. I really believe that the foundation
Speaker 3: of relationship is a It looks a lot like friendship.
Speaker 3: There's a lot of there are a lot of those
Speaker 3: qualities there, this good communication, this intimacy around emotionality, the safety,
Speaker 3: the space holding, the empathy. We could just keep going
Speaker 3: on and on. That's what we need for our relationships
Speaker 3: to grow and expand over time. Otherwise we have relationships
Speaker 3: that are stagnant, conflictual, and stubbm er, not growing, not changing.
Speaker 3: So when we think about why slowmanans is so important,
Speaker 3: it's because it allows for us to take the time
Speaker 3: necessary to build those foundational skills necessary for long term partnership.
Speaker 3: We were not born with a manual for how to
Speaker 3: be the best partner to our partners, let alone like ourselves.
Speaker 3: We're learning self love, usually all together collectively, and we
Speaker 3: were not even born with a manual for that. We
Speaker 3: don't have a manual for how to be the best partner.
Speaker 3: So we are learning as we grow, and these foundational
Speaker 3: these foundational things that we're building through slow mans, but
Speaker 3: through taking our time, through prioritizing humor and building rapport
Speaker 3: and focusing on levity in the relationship early on give
Speaker 3: us a nice cushion for all the stuff that life
Speaker 3: throws at us along the way. Because your partner and
Speaker 3: you clearly have this foundation for communication really early on
Speaker 3: your relationship. You could have that conversation and say, you
Speaker 3: know what, this is what I want and you felt
Speaker 3: comfortable to do so, and he felt comfortable being honest.
Speaker 4: I think that is a.
Speaker 3: Show that you all have created this space for integrity
Speaker 3: in your relationship, and that is really essential for anyone
Speaker 3: to make it long term. So it's really creates the
Speaker 3: space for us to do that intentional work without being
Speaker 3: distracted by where we're going to be twenty years from now.
Speaker 3: We're getting really deep, really fast.
Speaker 2: Mmmm oh my god. I absolutely, I'm just like nodding
Speaker 2: my head to every single thing that you're saying right now. Yes,
Speaker 2: that's correct, that's correct. I also think that you kind
Speaker 2: of want to know that you actually are compatible with them, right,
Speaker 2: Like that's the other big thing, Like I always say
Speaker 2: this on the show, but chemistry doesn't equal compatibility.
Speaker 4: There are so true.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there are so many people that of course you're
Speaker 2: going to have like an amazing spark with, of course
Speaker 2: they're going to look like, of course you're going to
Speaker 2: be attracted to them. But is that the same as
Speaker 2: if this is what you want being able to build
Speaker 2: a life with them. Also, like those I don't know
Speaker 2: about you, but those early days in a relationship, I
Speaker 2: still think back on them and think they were so
Speaker 2: wonderful and having all those Yeah, having all those firsts
Speaker 2: and having all those like moments of like exploration and
Speaker 2: we're getting to know each other, and every story he
Speaker 2: tells you or they tell you is a new story
Speaker 2: and it's just like and it's so fun and like
Speaker 2: you go to the movies together and like they like
Speaker 2: touch your leg for the first time and you're like
Speaker 2: a teenager again. Like there's so much beauty and joy
Speaker 2: in enjoying those moments rather than trying to speed things up.
Speaker 2: Like is that something that you found as well?
Speaker 4: Oh, absolutely there's one.
Speaker 3: There's this dreaming quality to how you're describing it, And
Speaker 3: I love it because I really have found with working
Speaker 3: with a lot of couples over the years, well, actually
Speaker 3: a lot of people in all kinds of relationship configurations,
Speaker 3: that those early memories, those early conversations, like all of
Speaker 3: that connection you're talking about, really do serve as this
Speaker 3: cushion for the relationship later. So if I imagine me
Speaker 3: sitting in a room with two other people who are
Speaker 3: in constant conflict in their relationship, and I take a
Speaker 3: moment where they could have been arguing for thirty minutes
Speaker 3: in my office, I take a moment and I just
Speaker 3: ask them to think about why they got together, Like,
Speaker 3: tell me why you all got together in the first place.
Speaker 4: I might say something sassy like that to try to
Speaker 4: change the energy.
Speaker 3: And usually the thought of why we got together in
Speaker 3: the first place brings smiles, It brings laughter, it brings
Speaker 3: joy because quite often people associate so much positivity and
Speaker 3: warmth with those early relationship beginnings. So when we think
Speaker 3: about Slowman's again, it's important that we're prioritizing, savoring that,
Speaker 3: capturing as much of that as possible, being present to it,
Speaker 3: not being distracted, really leaning in with an open heart,
Speaker 3: because that time passes and eventually you get to doing
Speaker 3: life and all of the other things, and it's just
Speaker 3: so meaningful to have that, say, somewhere in your memory
Speaker 3: so you can access it when times get hard.
Speaker 2: That is such a beautiful sentiment. And you know what,
Speaker 2: I'm going to steal that advice and use it for
Speaker 2: everyone whoever comes to me with relationship problems like why
Speaker 2: did you why did you even start dating in the
Speaker 2: first place? Like why are you together?
Speaker 3: There's usually a good reason, and usually the things that
Speaker 3: they're complaining about are things that they loved before, or
Speaker 3: there were things that were there from the beginning, but
Speaker 3: they found some way of empathizing with those things early
Speaker 3: on that they can access again.
Speaker 2: Have you ever heard of this theory called fatal attraction theory?
Speaker 4: I have not heard of the theory. I'm part of
Speaker 4: the concept. Tell me more.
Speaker 2: Okay, So basically this theory, it's it was proposed by
Speaker 2: this woman back in like the nineties. And essentially what
Speaker 2: she says, this woman, I should say, she's a doctor PhD.
Speaker 2: So I'm going to check myself there. She's just a girl. No,
Speaker 2: she's a well educated lady. And she basically was observing
Speaker 2: these relationships amongst these people that she was seeing on
Speaker 2: a college campus and what she was observing was that
Speaker 2: and amongst her own friends and all that, and what
Speaker 2: she was observing was actually, the reason that we end
Speaker 2: up breaking up with somebody is normally due to something
Speaker 2: that we first really loved, and it's called the fatal attractor.
Speaker 2: So you know, you love that your partner is so
Speaker 2: like spontaneous, and you love that they like are always
Speaker 2: you know, surprising you with things and that they really
Speaker 2: go with the flow, and you love that about them,
Speaker 2: that energy. But then later on you're like, well, actually, no,
Speaker 2: I want so where are we going to dinner tonight?
Speaker 2: Like I have work, I need to know the time,
Speaker 2: And they're like, oh wherever, Like let's just be spontaneous.
Speaker 2: It's like, no, this is actually like detrimental to our relationship.
Speaker 2: Or you know, you really like the person who is
Speaker 2: really into like work, and you like that they're so
Speaker 2: motivated and you like that they're so focused, but actually
Speaker 2: that ends up meaning that they spend a lot less
Speaker 2: time with you. And so that's that's like exactly what
Speaker 2: I'm hearing in what you're saying is yes, so often
Speaker 2: like yes, the thing that we often struggle with most
Speaker 2: later on is something that has always been there and
Speaker 2: it's about being like, okay, but there was something in
Speaker 2: that that I loved. There was something in that that
Speaker 2: really drew me to them. And if you don't have
Speaker 2: that slow start, how are you going to have taken
Speaker 2: the time to have processed that, you know what I mean?
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's so important.
Speaker 3: I love thank you for sharing their federal attraction theory,
Speaker 3: and I love thinking about this idea of really getting
Speaker 3: to know someone, getting a full picture of who they are.
Speaker 3: A lot of times, who were meeting a person, we
Speaker 3: have a lot of expectations about who they'll be. If
Speaker 3: people are honest, many people come to relationships with some
Speaker 3: type of list these days, or some type of expectations
Speaker 3: or desires. And I think that on the head, that's
Speaker 3: totally fine. Sometimes where that is difficult is that we
Speaker 3: all have these expectations about who a person should be
Speaker 3: for us, or we we need them to fit these
Speaker 3: categories or check these boxes, and that sometimes prevents us
Speaker 3: from actually seeing them for who they are, even if
Speaker 3: they match all of the boxes that we want them
Speaker 3: to check. Who are they as like a soul, as
Speaker 3: an individual, as a being, What makes them smile? What
Speaker 3: makes them sad? Like we don't know those things usually
Speaker 3: by just you know, meeting the qualifications of where they
Speaker 3: went to school and all of these other things. And
Speaker 3: so it's really important for us to really look at
Speaker 3: a person, get to know them in a genuine way,
Speaker 3: in an authentic way.
Speaker 2: Mmmm oh yeah again, agree, agree, agree, I'm just full
Speaker 2: of positive statements about this, sir. Let's move on to
Speaker 2: practical because I feel like we've talked a lot about
Speaker 2: the theory and a lot about like I've been in
Speaker 2: the clouds a little bit.
Speaker 4: So I love it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I met too. It's kind of nice.
Speaker 4: I do appreciate it.
Speaker 2: But how is it that we can really have a
Speaker 2: soft stop when it feels so unnatural to slow things down?
Speaker 2: How do we embrace how do we embrace that that
Speaker 2: need to have a slow bone.
Speaker 4: To go slow? Yeah.
Speaker 3: So, some of my advice when meeting someone initially, let's
Speaker 3: say you met them on the hinge. Some of my
Speaker 3: advice initially is to prioritize humor in those early conversations
Speaker 3: because our focus early on is connection. We want to
Speaker 3: so the first thing I'll say is humor, because humor
Speaker 3: really is disarming. It builds rapport, and rapport is essential
Speaker 3: for someone to feel comfortable around us, comfortable opening up. Second,
Speaker 3: I'll say it's important to prioritize sharing your ideals and
Speaker 3: values with someone early on. People want to have things
Speaker 3: in common with the people that they're getting to know.
Speaker 3: So if you can prioritize sharing those things on your
Speaker 3: profile or even in your early communication, I think you
Speaker 3: have a better chance of really one displaying yourself authentically,
Speaker 3: but also allowing another person to see you early on.
Speaker 3: I think it's the third thing that I'd like people
Speaker 3: to prioritize when when engaging in a soft start is
Speaker 3: lightness and levity. Now I want when you think light
Speaker 3: or likeness or levity, I want you to think soft
Speaker 3: for real, don't think shallow, because the goal is still
Speaker 3: to be deep. There's nothing wrong with being deep. We
Speaker 3: don't want to be so deep where we're saying in
Speaker 3: that initial conversation with someone, why did your last relationship end?
Speaker 3: We want to still be deep in the like in
Speaker 3: a you know, seeing you made me really smile today,
Speaker 3: Like in a very genuine, involmental way. So there are
Speaker 3: ways to be deep that are not deep on the trauma.
Speaker 3: By the end, you know, it's like deep in a
Speaker 3: very grounded in present.
Speaker 2: Way, Like I also think it's about steering away from
Speaker 2: things that you'll get to eventually and spending a lot
Speaker 2: of time on the things that people kind of rush past, right,
Speaker 2: like Okay, what are your hobbies? You know, like on
Speaker 2: a first day, people alway's like, what are your hobbies?
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I like boxing and like running. Okay, that's
Speaker 2: really cool, and what do you for And it's like, okay,
Speaker 2: we speak past of that. And if you go, oh
Speaker 2: my god, so when was your first boxing class?
Speaker 1: What?
Speaker 2: Why do you like that so much? Like is there
Speaker 2: something do you really like expressing yourself physically? That kind
Speaker 2: of that feels like I come on to be honest,
Speaker 2: but you know what I mean. But you know, yeah,
Speaker 2: accidental and that kind of stuff. But it's like, spend
Speaker 2: more time getting deep about the things that feel shallow.
Speaker 2: Is like what I'm here? You say the other thing,
Speaker 2: like I was reflecting on it, and honestly, I was
Speaker 2: reflecting on in the sense that I did this wrong.
Speaker 2: Maybe not wrong, but I definitely made this mistake. Don't
Speaker 2: sacrifice your independent life too quickly, and don't don't I
Speaker 2: get the feeling of being like I want to see
Speaker 2: you every day. I want to I want to, of course,
Speaker 2: I want to go on a date with you every
Speaker 2: night of the week. I want you to stay over.
Speaker 2: But if you're like canceling plans with your friends to
Speaker 2: do that, if you're leaving things early to do that,
Speaker 2: I think what that indicates to me. And I will
Speaker 2: say I am guilty of doing that. When I first
Speaker 2: started dating Tom, I did that all the not all
Speaker 2: the time, but there were definitely moments I had to
Speaker 2: catch myself, And I think what that ends up happening,
Speaker 2: What ends up occurring as a result of that, is
Speaker 2: that pretty quickly they're everything. They consume all other dimensions
Speaker 2: of who you are, because you know your friends are
Speaker 2: only going to be responsive to you canceling plans so
Speaker 2: many times, They're only going to invite you so many
Speaker 2: times if you ditch them to go and hang out
Speaker 2: with this person that you met like three weeks ago
Speaker 2: on a dating app. Right, And so I think that
Speaker 2: it's about and I say this all the time, like
Speaker 2: you can't be a partner without being a person, and
Speaker 2: you have to maintain those like individual parts of yourself.
Speaker 2: Do you have any other advice on how to do that?
Speaker 2: In the early days.
Speaker 3: I think my advice when we're in those early stages
Speaker 3: is to have fun. I really I'm stuck on what
Speaker 3: you're saying, though, because I'm like, yeah, that actually needs
Speaker 3: to be like number one, scoot that to the top
Speaker 3: of the list. Not losing yourself in that. It takes
Speaker 3: time to integrate people into our lives. It takes time
Speaker 3: for them to become like a steady person in a
Speaker 3: very intentional and grounded way.
Speaker 4: So I totally agree.
Speaker 3: Then I think fun is really important, So I want
Speaker 3: to scoot that up to the top of the list.
Speaker 3: Remembering to have fun, especially when so many people are
Speaker 3: erencing burnout or so many people are struggling in relationships,
Speaker 3: fun can really be can really infuse the early relationship
Speaker 3: with the kind of connection that takes it to the
Speaker 3: next level. Sometimes what we're missing in our connections is fun.
Speaker 3: We forget that dating like, yes, it's a big important
Speaker 3: thing in our life, but it's supposed to be adding
Speaker 3: to our lives and not taking away, And so this
Speaker 3: fun piece is important while we're also being serious many
Speaker 3: of us. I'm sure I would be doing this too,
Speaker 3: especially after being a therapist so long, and I have
Speaker 3: moments of being too serious.
Speaker 4: I would show up. Let's say it's me.
Speaker 3: I would show up to a date and be like
Speaker 3: focused on sharing my intentions. But and it's very like dryway,
Speaker 3: like this is what I'm looking for? What are you
Speaker 3: looking for? And I forget to like laugh, to joke
Speaker 3: about things, or to people watch with them or talk
Speaker 3: about something funny I heard.
Speaker 4: And so.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm just a strong believer these days and like
Speaker 3: loosening up and really enjoying the journey. It can feel
Speaker 3: counter when there are these hurts we experienced along the way.
Speaker 3: So I try to experience new relationships of all kinds
Speaker 3: as new relationships, and so let them be new. That
Speaker 3: means let yourself be new in the new connections as well,
Speaker 3: and have fun.
Speaker 2: And I remember you said something earlier that I loved,
Speaker 2: which was it should look a lot like a friendship,
Speaker 2: and like that's a huge part of friendship, right, It's
Speaker 2: like laughing and having fun with somebody, and like experiencing
Speaker 2: joy and play playing and like going on an adventure
Speaker 2: and like just being outdoors with whatever it is is
Speaker 2: also so important. I think the other thing I would
Speaker 2: say is try and do daytime dates.
Speaker 4: Daytime dates.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, Are you a big proponent of the daytime date?
Speaker 2: I absolutely love it. First of all, some people we
Speaker 2: need to be going to sleep a little earlier. Some
Speaker 2: of us are not getting enough rest. So I and
Speaker 2: I am one of those people.
Speaker 3: Daytime though, I have so much energy, Like in ther
Speaker 3: catch me in the morning, I'm like dancing, I'm like
Speaker 3: I'm loose, and so I think what you're getting for
Speaker 3: me is like knowing yourself, knowing whether you're a morning
Speaker 3: person a night person, and that can change depending on
Speaker 3: what your workloading is or whatever.
Speaker 4: Go on dates when you can give your best.
Speaker 3: This is counter though, I think to a lot of
Speaker 3: the relationship conversations that are happening out there where people are.
Speaker 4: Like, don't take me on a breakfast date.
Speaker 3: I know, but our reports actually show that the number
Speaker 3: one low pressure date spot for queer hande daters was
Speaker 3: a coffee shop. So for queer daters coffee shops there
Speaker 3: are definitely places for solid connection and I'm hoping more people.
Speaker 3: I think that could be for all daters without these
Speaker 3: kinds of stigmas attached to them.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and I actually have a friend. Her name
Speaker 2: is Chandera and she talks about this a lot, and
Speaker 2: we definitely disagree on it. I have a lot of
Speaker 2: love for her, and she's always like, don't take me
Speaker 2: on a walk. A walk is not a day. Coffee
Speaker 2: is not a day. And I was like, no, I
Speaker 2: totally get why why you're saying that, But this is
Speaker 2: like when you already kind of know that you like
Speaker 2: the person. And also, like in this economy, dinner and
Speaker 2: drinks is expensive. It's expensive, you end up being tired,
Speaker 2: and then maybe you have a couple too many. Like
Speaker 2: if you're too many drinks, you're a bit drunk, you're
Speaker 2: a bit tipsy, like you're full, you're sleepy. It's like
Speaker 2: and like during the daytime, it's like that's ow human hours.
Speaker 2: That's what I always say to people, Like that's like
Speaker 2: the time when you're the most energized. You can go
Speaker 2: outdoors and you could just even if it's wet and
Speaker 2: cold and rainy and snowy. Like, yeah, it creates play
Speaker 2: within us and it creates connection. But like maybe I'll
Speaker 2: get damns from people being like if somebody asked me
Speaker 2: how to like if somebody asked me to the park,
Speaker 2: I would be saying absolutely not, absolutely no way to that,
Speaker 2: and I get it be safe, but it could be
Speaker 2: a you know, a picnic in the park, you know,
Speaker 2: live music in the park.
Speaker 4: Maybe we have some qualifiers. It can be like pretty cute.
Speaker 3: And for anybody that's trying to decenter, like maybe not decenter,
Speaker 3: but trying to slow things down when it comes to
Speaker 3: physical relationships, maybe they're the person that's often quick to
Speaker 3: a sexual relationship. I think daytime dates can naturally kind
Speaker 3: of shift that energy because we're so conditioned to think
Speaker 3: nighttime is sexy, and so when we go on daytime dates,
Speaker 3: they're often and even time parameters on the days, and
Speaker 3: we know we'll be together for a couple of hours
Speaker 3: and they will part ways, and so it kind of
Speaker 3: helps to put those natural boundaries in place if we
Speaker 3: are trying to be intentional about slowing down the physical connection.
Speaker 4: Mm hmmm, well.
Speaker 2: There we go. There's your the low pressure first date,
Speaker 2: low pressure dates. And I love what you me too,
Speaker 2: and I love like I will say me and Tom,
Speaker 2: I keep saying Tom, and then my partner hopefully by
Speaker 2: now they know his name. But something that that was
Speaker 2: our second date was we went and had a picnic
Speaker 2: at beautiful this like beach lookout in the coast, like
Speaker 2: around the coast of Australia, and we made it really
Speaker 2: fun where we were like each of us has to
Speaker 2: bring like snacks and some food and a drink, and
Speaker 2: but we were like it has to be something that
Speaker 2: we've never tried before. It was like the food that
Speaker 2: we that we bring is something that we've never had,
Speaker 2: something super strange or different or new. And it was
Speaker 2: like okay, so like yeah, we're outside, we were enjoying
Speaker 2: the sunshine. But then also like we had this like
Speaker 2: joint experience pretty early on that was fun. Again, it
Speaker 2: was fun. It was like a bit different and maybe
Speaker 2: it's a bit lame to people, but I don't know,
Speaker 2: it worked for me. I'm still with him. He's like
Speaker 2: the love of my life, and like we actually got
Speaker 2: to know each other through those moments, which was really special.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, it's a beautiful example of thinking creatively about
Speaker 3: that low pressure date. But I would say like, and
Speaker 3: I would add that for anybody who's struggling to think
Speaker 3: that that's a quality date, think about the intention, Like
Speaker 3: what is it that you want to.
Speaker 4: What is it that you really want from the date.
Speaker 3: Sometimes I think people are focused on how much a
Speaker 3: person spends on the date as a measure of whether
Speaker 3: or not they're intentional or invested. And I think you
Speaker 3: can assess that investment in other ways.
Speaker 4: When you're on that.
Speaker 3: Beautiful picnic at this gorgeous beach, lookout, how long they're
Speaker 3: staring into your eyes, how many smiles you exchange, how
Speaker 3: deeply they listen to your heartfelt stories from childhood. That
Speaker 3: all tells you that person is intentional. And so I
Speaker 3: want anybody listening to think about measuring this intention in
Speaker 3: a different way, because I think these early dates could
Speaker 3: be that are more low pressure, could help us to
Speaker 3: communicate and engage in a different way.
Speaker 2: I think that it is like the most beautiful sentiment
Speaker 2: to finish on. But actually I do want to ask
Speaker 2: you one more question. Aside from the slow man's the
Speaker 2: slow burne, the low pressure, Fied states, I feel like
Speaker 2: we've been very much like take it slow and make
Speaker 2: it lost. What would be your other biggest piece of
Speaker 2: advice for dating in your twenties.
Speaker 3: Ooh, I'm so happy you ask, because earlier in the year,
Speaker 3: hinge to really these the gen Z Day reports. So
Speaker 3: if anybody listening has not seen that, I encourage you
Speaker 3: to go check that out. The gen z Day report
Speaker 3: actually uncovered that ninety percent of gen z Hinge daters
Speaker 3: are actually looking for love, but their collective worries around
Speaker 3: rejection we're actually getting in the way, preventing them from
Speaker 3: initiating these really important conversations or even talking to the
Speaker 3: people that they like. And so my advice for anyone
Speaker 3: dating in their twenties are these three things. First, embrace
Speaker 3: cringe mode. So if something feels cringey, if you're worried
Speaker 3: about rejection, my advice is to embrace this feeling because
Speaker 3: it's just telling you that what you're really wanting is
Speaker 3: what you're really wanting is connection. And we should prioritize
Speaker 3: what we want over what we don't want. That's how
Speaker 3: we create what we want. So then the second things
Speaker 3: I encourage you to do is to be upfront in
Speaker 3: your digital body language. People in their twenties are way
Speaker 3: more keenly aware of deciphering at deciphering text messages, emojis,
Speaker 3: what people mean when they're not saying anything, What those
Speaker 3: dots mean when they appear and they go away all
Speaker 3: of their things. So we're calling that dbl at his
Speaker 3: that stands for digital body language. I encourage people in
Speaker 3: their twenties to just be very clear about your own DBL,
Speaker 3: what you're communicating, when you're not actually communicating, what you're
Speaker 3: communicating with those emojis, all of the things, all the
Speaker 3: subtle cues that you're sending, because the more clear that
Speaker 3: you can be, the more of the good vibes that
Speaker 3: you're sending out to other people. And then the third
Speaker 3: thing would be to I don't want you to be
Speaker 3: afraid anymore to initiate those conversations around like what are
Speaker 3: we If you're really wanting to know where a relationship
Speaker 3: is going, somebody has to make that first step.
Speaker 4: And what we found in the.
Speaker 3: Gen Z Date report is that people are waiting for
Speaker 3: the other person to do it. So we need to
Speaker 3: go ahead and just make it known that if you
Speaker 3: make that initiative, very likely there's someone on the other
Speaker 3: end of that waiting to have had that conversation too.
Speaker 2: My gosh, absolutely spot on. I just want to say
Speaker 2: thank you again for coming on and for sharing your
Speaker 2: amazing insights. This is actually just also such a fun conversation.
Speaker 2: You're so wise and just like brought such a fun
Speaker 2: energy to dating, which sometimes we don't have, you know,
Speaker 2: sometimes it feels very serious. So where can they find you?
Speaker 2: Where can they follow you? Where can they hear more
Speaker 2: from you? Yay?
Speaker 4: Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 3: I can be found on Instagram and love the Out Proud,
Speaker 3: so check me out. I Love out Proud. I also
Speaker 3: co host a podcast with my wife called be Your
Speaker 3: Own Love Goals Podcast with mo Iri and Tiffany, and
Speaker 3: you can check us out on all the major streams platforms.
Speaker 3: But we're also on Instagram at be your Own Love Goals.
Speaker 3: So if you want to check out some cute couples content,
Speaker 3: you want more lifestyle advice things for me, please connect
Speaker 3: with me on social media. I'd love, you know, connecting
Speaker 3: with people, and I'm looking forward to it.
Speaker 2: I really hope that they do. And I'm actually really
Speaker 2: keen to go and listen to your podcast now. I
Speaker 2: feel like I could do some some more like wise
Speaker 2: fun advice. Well, thank you again to I'll love my guest,
Speaker 2: and as always, if you enjoyed this episode, please feel
Speaker 2: free to give a five star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,
Speaker 2: wherever you're listening right now. It really helps the show
Speaker 2: to grow and reach new people. If there was someone
Speaker 2: who needs advice on slowing things down, maybe pointedly, maybe
Speaker 2: not so pointantly, send them this episode. They might benefit
Speaker 2: from it. And if you have an episode suggestion, if
Speaker 2: you maybe just agree with our advice, or you agree
Speaker 2: very highly, please shoop me a message at that psychology podcast.
Speaker 2: I would love to hear from you. And until then,
Speaker 2: stay safe, be kind, and of course be gentle to yourself,
Speaker 2: and we will talk very soon.
Speaker 3: H