1 00:00:02,200 --> 00:00:05,320 Speaker 1: There were protests and chaos at the nation's airports this 2 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:09,160 Speaker 1: weekend in response to President Trump's executive order on immigration, 3 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:13,000 Speaker 1: blocking citizens of seven mostly Muslim countries from entering the 4 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:16,720 Speaker 1: United States for ninety days. Condemnation of the band came 5 00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:19,319 Speaker 1: from a wide group of people, from religious leaders and 6 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:24,439 Speaker 1: constitutional scholars to business leaders and Democrats. Here's Pennsylvania Governor 7 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 1: Tom Wolfe. These are legal immigrants. These are people who 8 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:31,920 Speaker 1: have going through all the hurdles and they have chosen 9 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:34,960 Speaker 1: to come and live with us here in Pennsylvania. I 10 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 1: say to them, you are welcome here. Officials from the 11 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:43,560 Speaker 1: Trump administration defended the order. White House Chief of Staff 12 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:46,760 Speaker 1: Ryance previous set on NBC's Meet the Press that the 13 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 1: executive order was an important step in protecting the country's 14 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 1: national security. Perhaps some of these people should be detained further, 15 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 1: and if they're folks that shouldn't be in this country, 16 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 1: they're going to be detained and so apologize for nothing here. 17 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 1: So far, four federal judges in New York, Massachusetts, Virginia, 18 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 1: and Washington had issued temporary rulings blocking aspects of the order. 19 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:14,640 Speaker 1: Our guest today are David Buyer, immigration policy analyst, at 20 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 1: the Cato Institute and Jennifer Shikohn, Professor at U c 21 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 1: Irvine Law School. Jennifer, There's been a lot of questions 22 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:25,959 Speaker 1: about what the order actually does. Tell us about the 23 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:29,680 Speaker 1: order well, the order UM. I think there's a lot 24 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 1: of questions about what the order actually does because it 25 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 1: was rushed out extremely quickly and regardless of anyone's immigration 26 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:38,399 Speaker 1: policy preferences. I think we all need to be troubled 27 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 1: by the fact that the President rolled out this highly 28 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:43,840 Speaker 1: consequential and widespread change of policy without properly vetting it 29 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:47,040 Speaker 1: through legal counsel UM, and with insufficient concern that it 30 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 1: be implemented in accordance we have established law and constitutional principles. 31 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 1: So the order puts a freeze on refugee admissions, it 32 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 1: bans UH, puts a freeze on all immigration from seven 33 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 1: UH countries identified in the order, It puts a freeze 34 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:09,080 Speaker 1: on immigration from Syria, and then it signals UH what 35 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 1: appears to be a complete unawareness of the many security 36 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 1: measures that are already in place in our immigration screening 37 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 1: system UM and orders a host of duplicative and unexplained 38 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:22,520 Speaker 1: requirements on agency officials at DHS in state, UM to 39 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 1: perform additional data gathering tasks and um screenings, many of 40 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:32,399 Speaker 1: which are already in place. David. Over the weekend, there 41 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 1: were I think five rulings by judges staying the order 42 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:40,320 Speaker 1: in various different ways. Kind of legally speaking, if you 43 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 1: put these five rulings together, what is the legal status 44 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 1: right now in terms of implementing and enforcing the order. Well, 45 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:53,240 Speaker 1: the vast majority of this order is still in effect, 46 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 1: and most of the order is intended to prevent new 47 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 1: people from arriving in the United States. The vast majority 48 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 1: all of the orders were specific to people who had 49 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:07,959 Speaker 1: already arrived in the United States and the government was 50 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:11,400 Speaker 1: speaking to remove them under the on the basis of 51 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:15,640 Speaker 1: this order. So, uh, that's who the order affects. Those 52 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 1: orders affect. Most of the order going forward is going 53 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:22,840 Speaker 1: to be affecting people who are not in the United States. 54 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:29,960 Speaker 1: FirstRand overseas, and as far as what the president the 55 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 1: authority the president has jennifer over over immigration and according 56 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 1: to federal law, he's allowed to suspend people or classes 57 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 1: of people if he determines their entry is detrimental to 58 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:49,840 Speaker 1: the nation. What are some of the um the limitations 59 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 1: on that, Well, I think the President UH invoked Section 60 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:56,839 Speaker 1: to twelve to twelve F of the I n A 61 00:03:56,840 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 1: at the justification for his ability to suspend these broad 62 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 1: categories whole countries of people from UM entering, and TO 63 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 1: twelve F has never been used that expansively before. There 64 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 1: was actually consideration of the possibility of using it UM 65 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 1: in the wake of the attacks of two thousand one, 66 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 1: time of extraordinarily high attention UM and concern about security, 67 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 1: and as the government at that time determined that that 68 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 1: sort of an expansive use of TO twelve wif UM 69 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:25,839 Speaker 1: would be legally problematic. And so it seems like if 70 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 1: you're under direct attack UM and you're and you're finding 71 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 1: that the use of TO twelve US in that way, 72 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 1: it would be legally problematic UM. In a situation like this, 73 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 1: where there's no apparent UM trigger for the invocation of 74 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:40,680 Speaker 1: this section, this looks troubling. But in addition to this, 75 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 1: I think it's important to stress the fact that UM 76 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:45,840 Speaker 1: that the order purported to give and was being used 77 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 1: by border patrol agents to turn away lawful permanent residents 78 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 1: under the auspices of that statutory provision, which doesn't even 79 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 1: apply to returning the lawful permanent residents. And it took 80 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 1: a related statement from Department of Homeland Secretary Kelly two 81 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:00,160 Speaker 1: days after the order went into effect to risk been 82 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 1: that lawless effect of the application of that provision. So 83 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 1: that again speaks to how things were so rushed out 84 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:08,599 Speaker 1: that statutory provisions that don't allow for certain kinds of 85 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:12,360 Speaker 1: actions were being used to justify those actions, and that, 86 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 1: um should I think be troubling for everybody. Well, David, 87 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:21,080 Speaker 1: the lawsuits also, at least some of them raise constitutional questions, 88 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 1: and the judges seemed to find, at least to some 89 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:26,480 Speaker 1: degree that there's a likelihood of success that they might 90 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 1: be unconstitutional. What what is the constitutional attack on the order? Well, 91 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:35,240 Speaker 1: the main ones that have been talked about so far 92 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:40,360 Speaker 1: are uh, dealing with the First Amendment and and targeting 93 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 1: of religion. I tend to think that that's probably not 94 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:48,840 Speaker 1: going to be a successful tact. It's pretty clear that 95 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 1: Congress does have the power to give the president the 96 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 1: ability to restrict entry of people however he wants. However, 97 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:02,839 Speaker 1: in this instance, the immigration laws are very specific in 98 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:07,600 Speaker 1: saying you cannot discriminate based on national origin when you're 99 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:11,400 Speaker 1: talking about immigrant visas, the people who are coming to 100 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:15,920 Speaker 1: the United States to live permanently. In that instance, Congress 101 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:21,279 Speaker 1: has has specifically said you cannot take into account national origin, 102 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 1: which is what this order does. So at least for 103 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:26,839 Speaker 1: those people who are coming to the United States for 104 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 1: permanent residency, they could potentially have a claim that he 105 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:37,360 Speaker 1: has exceeded his authority from Congress. Do you agree, Jennifer 106 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:40,600 Speaker 1: Red you see any other areas of strength in attacking this. 107 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:43,640 Speaker 1: I think one of the difficulties that we have with 108 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 1: immigration law is that we still have a great deal 109 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:49,040 Speaker 1: of constitutional precedent from the late nineteenth century that stands 110 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 1: in place. That UM that not only UM grants to 111 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 1: the to the federal government, and I would say that's 112 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:58,720 Speaker 1: Congress and the President, not the president alone, but grants 113 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:02,479 Speaker 1: them great power over immigration law. But it also in 114 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 1: the cases like the Chinese exclusion cases, allowed them to 115 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 1: exercise that power in ways that discriminated explicitly on the 116 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 1: basis of race, UM and UH. And so we have 117 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 1: these challenging precedents that are still in place. I do think, though, UM, 118 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 1: that with the enactment of the of the Immigration and 119 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 1: Nationality Act of nine, Congress clearly signaled their intention to 120 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 1: bring the United States into an era where immigration law 121 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 1: was governed by the same equal protection norms and where 122 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 1: the law is quite clearly clear about the fact that 123 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 1: the nations should be uh treated, uh treated in the 124 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 1: uniform way and the individuals weren't to be barred as 125 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 1: as was just on the basis of a national origin. UM. 126 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 1: And so we do have these uh, these um new 127 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:46,200 Speaker 1: uh constitutional principles in the in the post civil rights 128 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 1: era that uh that I haven't fully made their way 129 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:51,680 Speaker 1: to immigration law. But though you're listening to Bloomberg Law, 130 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:54,280 Speaker 1: I'm June Grasso with Michael Best in New York and 131 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 1: Greg Store in Washington, d C. We've been talking about 132 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 1: what everyone's been talking about today, and that is the 133 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 1: Trump travel ban and what is the chaos that has 134 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 1: resulted at airports and the lawsuits that have resulted as well. 135 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:15,800 Speaker 1: And our guests today are David Buyer, immigration policy analysts 136 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 1: at the Cato Institute, and Jennifer Chicon, professor at u 137 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 1: C Irvine Law School. David Noah Feldman, who was a 138 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 1: Harvard law professor. In a Bloomberg View calumnist, wrote a 139 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:31,680 Speaker 1: column on Trump travel ban is an attack on religious liberty. 140 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 1: And we know that we have heard Trump say things 141 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:42,200 Speaker 1: during the campaign and afterwards about about allowing more Christians 142 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 1: to come in as opposed to Muslims to come in. 143 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:49,319 Speaker 1: And what how does that play as far as the 144 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 1: legality of this order, Well, the order itself does not, 145 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:57,200 Speaker 1: as far as the travel band portion of it goes, 146 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:02,079 Speaker 1: does not discriminate between Christian in or Muslim immigrants. And 147 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:05,559 Speaker 1: so it's important for people to understand that there are 148 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:10,680 Speaker 1: tens of thousands of Christian immigrants from these places in 149 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:15,920 Speaker 1: the United States who will be affected by this order, 150 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:19,839 Speaker 1: and so it's it's not correct to call this a 151 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 1: Muslim ban, though it's certainly motivated by animus or fear 152 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 1: of Muslims, so that it's understandable why people are branding 153 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 1: it that way. But it will have effects that hurt 154 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:39,599 Speaker 1: all faiths. Um. You know, Iranian immigrants and Iranian refugees 155 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 1: who have been coming here for decades, many of them 156 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:46,400 Speaker 1: are Christian, and they will not be able to sponsor 157 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:50,560 Speaker 1: their family members who are in Iran right now as 158 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 1: a result of this executive action. Jennifer. One of the 159 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:58,679 Speaker 1: things that does actually seem to talk about religion in 160 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 1: the order is is in to refugees, and the order 161 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 1: says that I mean determining refugee status, that the country 162 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 1: going forward is going to prioritize people who are religious 163 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 1: minorities in the countries that they are coming from. Is 164 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 1: there any legal issue with with that or is that 165 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 1: just a continuation of the way the country has always 166 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:23,520 Speaker 1: taken religious oppression into account when admitting refugees. Well. The 167 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:27,559 Speaker 1: refugee UM laws in particular are aimed at UH at 168 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 1: individuals who are the target of persecution UM in UH 169 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 1: in places where their country, where the state is unwilling 170 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:37,400 Speaker 1: or unable to protect them. And so that applies obviously 171 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:40,959 Speaker 1: to anybody UM who, regardless of religion, who is existing 172 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:43,439 Speaker 1: in a situation where their religion UM makes them the 173 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 1: target of persecution. The troubling thing about this order is 174 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 1: it suggests that there's some sort of hierarchy about which 175 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 1: religions ought to be which religions ought to be privileged 176 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 1: in making that determination. And that's simply inconsistent UM with 177 00:10:55,960 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 1: the with the international laws governing the treatment of refuge 178 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:03,280 Speaker 1: and it's been consistent with US values which have always 179 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 1: I think UM encourage people of all religions UM and 180 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:09,960 Speaker 1: no religions UM to come to the country and to 181 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 1: be part of society. David, we just learned that Washington 182 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:18,840 Speaker 1: State the attorney general has announced a lawsuit against Trump 183 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:23,079 Speaker 1: over this and do you expect other states to follow suit. 184 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 1: I would certainly expect that would UM. New York's representatives 185 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 1: are extremely upset over this situation. M. A significant number 186 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:40,840 Speaker 1: of people are now New Yorkers are stranded around the 187 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 1: world as a result of the order. UM, so I 188 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:47,600 Speaker 1: would certainly expect New York and several other states who 189 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 1: are going to be principally affected by what the President 190 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:57,120 Speaker 1: has just done to sign on to a lawsuit trying 191 00:11:57,160 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 1: to overturn this order. Jennifer, and in thirty seconds, what 192 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 1: do you think is the order going to stand in 193 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 1: court or is it going to be overturned? Well, I 194 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:10,720 Speaker 1: think there are parts of it that are definitely vulnerable 195 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:13,320 Speaker 1: to legal challenge and UM and will be overturned. But 196 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 1: I agree with UH your other guests that the president 197 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 1: does have broad discretion in the area of setting refugee policy. 198 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 1: So I think that UH, courts can do something to 199 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:26,440 Speaker 1: h to restrain UM the illegal aspects of the order. 200 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 1: In the discriminatory and may do something about the discriminatory 201 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 1: aspects of the order. But some of this is political 202 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 1: as well, and so it will depend on UM push 203 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 1: back from Congress, UM, and and push back from the 204 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 1: general public. UM if if we want to ensure that 205 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 1: some of the features of the law which do lie 206 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 1: within the president's discretion, UM our our checked. Thank you 207 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:49,400 Speaker 1: both for being on Bloomberg Law. That's Jennifer Shicon, professor 208 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 1: at U c Irvine Law School and David Buyer, immigration 209 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:56,839 Speaker 1: policy analyst at the Cato Institute, coming up on Bloomberg Law. 210 00:12:56,880 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 1: We're going to talk about what this is like for 211 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 1: immigration and lawyers and their clients right now, just what 212 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:06,720 Speaker 1: do they do in the face of this executive order 213 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 1: from President Trump.