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Speaker 1: Welcome to Had of Money. I'm Joel, I'm Matt, and

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Speaker 1: today we're talking about the power of cash with Jason Gorski.

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Speaker 2: That's right, yeah, Joel. So here's something that we are

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Speaker 2: hearing more and more. You can just sell me or

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Speaker 2: then mo me. It's sort of like I'll just uber

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Speaker 2: to the airport. I think once a company name has

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Speaker 2: become a verb, you know that it's completely ingrained in

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Speaker 2: our culture, and honestly, like, what's not to love about it?

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Speaker 2: It's easy, it's fast, it's like i mean, virtually instant.

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Speaker 2: It certainly makes life easier for me to pay rent.

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Speaker 1: For our little office here. Joel.

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Speaker 2: It definitely takes the hassle out of receiving rent from

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Speaker 2: my tenants as well on the investment properties. And I

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Speaker 2: think that they would say the same thing. But our

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Speaker 2: guest today, well you better believe he just agrees. We

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Speaker 2: are joined by Professor Jay Zagorski, who is an economist

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Speaker 2: at Boston University's Questrum School of Business, and he is

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Speaker 2: author of a new book that was published just a

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Speaker 2: couple months ago, The Power of Cash while using paper

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Speaker 2: money is good for you and society. And we'll see

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Speaker 2: if Jay can convince us to toss the plastic to

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Speaker 2: grab the cash instead. We'll see if cash is king,

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Speaker 2: but you know, the actual physical cash, that's what we're

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Speaker 2: talking about today. So, Jay, thank you so much for

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Speaker 2: joining us.

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Speaker 3: Great to be on your show, Matt and Joel. And

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Speaker 3: let me say, my goal is not to convince you

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Speaker 3: to throw away Zell, Venmo, PayPal, your credit cards. My

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Speaker 3: goal is much smaller and much simpler. All right here,

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Speaker 3: It is the punchline. Use cash at least once.

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Speaker 1: A week, once a week, once so that week, Okay.

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Speaker 3: Just at least at least you want to use it

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Speaker 3: more than once. Guys, you'd make me really happy. Everybody

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Speaker 3: uses cash at least once a week, all right. We

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Speaker 3: would keep it going in society because cash is very powerful.

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Speaker 3: But if no one uses cash anymore and it's only available,

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Speaker 3: for example, in emergencies, and we'll talk about that a

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Speaker 3: little bit later in the show, then cash becomes powerless.

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Speaker 1: Okay, and we want to keep that power cash around.

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Speaker 1: We'll talk about that first question though, Jay, what do

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Speaker 1: you like to splurge on? And are you using cash

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Speaker 1: when you're splurging?

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Speaker 3: I definitely do. I have one small weakness, you know,

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Speaker 3: It's sort of like my kryptonite for Superman, my Achilles heel.

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Speaker 3: I love large bottles of nice wine, not seven hundred

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Speaker 3: and fifty milli liters. But whenever I see, you, know,

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Speaker 3: in these magnums or terable magnums, I just go have

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Speaker 3: to have it. Now, let me say that I understand

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Speaker 3: that buying large bottles of say a laundry detergent, saves

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Speaker 3: your money, but when you buy large format bottles of wine,

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Speaker 3: you're actually spending extra money. You can google. I've written

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Speaker 3: a number of articles on this, So.

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Speaker 2: The economies of scale actually work against you. And is

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Speaker 2: that what like how many milli leaders those we're talking

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Speaker 2: about when it comes to.

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Speaker 3: A well, for example, must in a bottles of wine

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Speaker 3: or about seven hundred and fifty million liters. So if

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Speaker 3: you buy a one point five one point five liter

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Speaker 3: bottle of wine, a nice wine, not a drug wine,

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Speaker 3: you're gonna actually pay more on a per ounce basis.

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Speaker 3: And let me tell you why that my splurge is

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Speaker 3: related to the power of cash. I want to talk

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Speaker 3: to you about three things. The book has at least

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Speaker 3: twenty things about why cash is powerful, but I want

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Speaker 3: to talk to you about three things. Privacy, the ability

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Speaker 3: to pay, and it reduces prices. Those are the three

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Speaker 3: p's that I think we can cover in our time together.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Okay, I'm curious. So if the on your splurge,

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Speaker 1: if wine costs more in the bigger bottles, why do

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Speaker 1: you gravitate in that direction?

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Speaker 3: Because we're not all rational to be here. I see

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Speaker 3: a bottle of.

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Speaker 4: Wine, I go get a true economist.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm not perfectly rational, but let's talk about privacy

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Speaker 3: and bottles of wine for a moment. Okay, my wife

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Speaker 3: knows when I buy a bottle of wine. I walk

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Speaker 3: in the door, I'm like, oh, man, I bought this

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Speaker 3: bottle of wine, you know. And she sort of rolls

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Speaker 3: her eyes because once or twice I told her how

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Speaker 3: much I was spending on some of these giant bottles

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Speaker 3: and she was like, you're what, No, you spent how

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Speaker 3: much money? That's ridiculous. So now I pay cash when

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Speaker 3: I go and splurge my bottle of wine, and I

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Speaker 3: get some privacy. And my wife she enjoys the wine.

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Speaker 3: She doesn't ask me how much it costs, and she

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Speaker 3: can't go through the visa receipts. So the mass with

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Speaker 3: tardwork or anything like that. No, no, no, no, we have

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Speaker 3: a pretty open marriage. She knows I bought the wine,

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Speaker 3: but she doesn't know the price, and she can enjoy

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Speaker 3: it without going This is just totally ridiculous.

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Speaker 4: So your air and you're doing it for her own

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Speaker 4: good is what you're.

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Speaker 3: Saying, John, I'm doing it for my own good.

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Speaker 1: All right, let's talk digital payments are easy. Matt talked

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Speaker 1: about it kind of in the beginning, right, like cash,

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Speaker 1: it's easier to lose if I drop my credit card. Hey,

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Speaker 1: it's it's okay because I can call a credit card

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Speaker 1: company have that thing canceled, and then nobody can spend

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Speaker 1: on it. It's not going to impact me negatively. But

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Speaker 1: if I drop rude?

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Speaker 3: Not true? Not true?

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Speaker 1: Okay, tell me where I'm around.

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Speaker 3: Second, so people are like, oh, man, I don't want

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Speaker 3: to carry cash. I could get lost, stolen, I can

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Speaker 3: get mugged. And that's true. About two years ago, the

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Speaker 3: data come out kind of slowly. In the United States,

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Speaker 3: about four hundred million dollars worth of cash was stolen

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Speaker 3: last year to about two years ago. Okay, but how

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Speaker 3: much money was stolen on credit cards? Over twenty billion,

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Speaker 3: not million, but billion, and you can say, ah, well,

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Speaker 3: it didn't affect me. I lost my credit card. Some

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Speaker 3: thief you know, took it. They charged in, you know,

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Speaker 3: three thousand miles away things. I just called up the

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Speaker 3: credit card company that canceled the credit card. They were

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Speaker 3: funded the charges. But Matt and Joel, somebody had to

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Speaker 3: pay for what that thief stole. And that could be

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Speaker 3: the store, and how does the store make you pay?

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Speaker 3: They raised their prices to take care of shrinkage and theft.

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Speaker 3: Or it could be the credit card company is going

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Speaker 3: to take some losses and they basically end up charging everybody. So, yes,

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Speaker 3: cash gets stolen, but when theft happens via electronic means

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Speaker 3: everybody in society has to pay.

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Speaker 1: Gotcha? That makes sense.

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Speaker 2: Do you feel differently about debit cards? I mean, I

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Speaker 2: guess in that case, initially it is us as the

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Speaker 2: debit card holder, as the savings account or checking account

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Speaker 2: card holder, we see that money immediately leave. But then ultimately,

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Speaker 2: as we were trying to fight and claw that money back.

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Speaker 2: I guess again, at that point someone does end up paying.

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Speaker 2: But in that case it's the bank.

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Speaker 3: Not really. It really depends on how fast do you

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Speaker 3: notify the bank that your debit card was stolen. So

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Speaker 3: if you notify the bank before any thief uses your

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Speaker 3: debit card, no problem. The bank is on the hook

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Speaker 3: because they have to shut that debit card off. And

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Speaker 3: if they don't in time and you notify them, and

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Speaker 3: you actually have a record that you notified them, then

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Speaker 3: the bank's on the hook. But if you don't actually

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Speaker 3: look at your debit card transactions, you don't I'll constantly

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Speaker 3: check your account of seeing what's going on, and you

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Speaker 3: wait a while, you could basically be on the hook

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Speaker 3: for everything, and not only that, they could drain your

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Speaker 3: account and you have no recourse if you wait long enough.

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Speaker 3: Now there's a whole bunch of different dates and times,

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Speaker 3: and I don't want to get into the specifics because

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Speaker 3: I don't want someone saying, but Jay Z said on

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Speaker 3: this on this podcast, you know it was fourteen days

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Speaker 3: and it turned out to actually be thirteen or something

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Speaker 3: like that. I don't want to get into that kind

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Speaker 3: of issues here. But you could be totally on the

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Speaker 3: hook on a debit card if you don't notify them immediately.

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Speaker 3: And sometimes people lose debit cards and don't know they

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Speaker 3: lost their debit cards.

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Speaker 1: Sure, so from like a macro perspective, Jay, when we

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Speaker 1: look at the transition from cash to credit in this country,

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Speaker 1: like people used to just pay cash for stuff they

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Speaker 1: don't anymore. What has that looked like and how has

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Speaker 1: that impacted us as a society? Is does it? I mean,

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Speaker 1: it certainly seems like it's led to a lot more debt.

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Speaker 3: And that's the big problem if we in you and

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Speaker 3: I start using cash more often. Cash is basically a

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Speaker 3: hard limit when you're out of money in your wallet,

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Speaker 3: when you're out of money in your purse, you basically

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Speaker 3: have to stop spending. With a debit card, you can

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Speaker 3: spend all the way up to the limit of the

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Speaker 3: amount of money in your account. With a credit card,

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Speaker 3: it's all the money in your bank accounts plus whatever

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Speaker 3: your credit limit is. So stores love and banks love

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Speaker 3: the ability to do electronic payments. Why because it encourages

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Speaker 3: us to spend far more, to get deeper into debt.

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Speaker 3: But if you're trying to maintain some control over your finances,

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Speaker 3: basically to improve your wealth situation, you want to use

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Speaker 3: electronic payments as little as possible. And it's for a

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Speaker 3: very simple reason. It's called the pain of paying. The

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Speaker 3: pain of paying, you start pulling pieces of paper out

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Speaker 3: of your wallet or purse, you feel a tiny bit

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Speaker 3: of regret. You pull out your cell phone or your

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Speaker 3: credit card and sort of swipe or tap as you

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Speaker 3: walk by a cash register. Eh, nothing actually happens mentally,

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Speaker 3: because you're going to pay like a month later, and

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Speaker 3: that's so far off in the distance that you're not

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Speaker 3: thinking about it. There's no pain. And because of no pain,

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Speaker 3: because there's no pain, you end up spending.

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Speaker 2: More' that's future Matt's problem to have to deal with,

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Speaker 2: not present day Matt, but.

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Speaker 3: Uh, future Matt's going to show up in thirty days.

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Speaker 1: That's true. Yeah, it's just around the corner exactly.

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Speaker 2: I will say, we've had listeners and there have been

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Speaker 2: other reports out too. This isn't just anecdotal with our audience.

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Speaker 2: But there's a lot of folks who say makes younger

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Speaker 2: folks when when I pay for something with cash, because

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Speaker 2: cash isn't their system that they transact in. When they

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Speaker 2: do use cash, it feels almost like pretend money. It

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Speaker 2: almost feels like like monopoly money or something like that,

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Speaker 2: as opposed to the charges getting tracked and then it

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Speaker 2: goes into their budget and as they reconcile, they're spending

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Speaker 2: at the end of the month.

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Speaker 1: What are your thoughts there?

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Speaker 3: So a lot of it has to do with how

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Speaker 3: you understand money. But for me, the best example is casinos.

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Speaker 3: I'm not encouraging any of your listeners to go to

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Speaker 3: a casino, but when you walk into a casino, they're

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Speaker 3: going to ask you for cash, and they're going to

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Speaker 3: hand you chips. And then after handing you chips, you're

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Speaker 3: going to gamble and if you have some chips left over,

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Speaker 3: or maybe you have more chips, if you get lucky,

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Speaker 3: then you actually started with you then transform it back

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Speaker 3: into cash. Why did casinos do this ridiculous whole process

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Speaker 3: of taking paper money, transforming into plastic chips, and then

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Speaker 3: handing back paper money at the very end, it's kind

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Speaker 3: of expensive. They have to count chips, they have to

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Speaker 3: have all these people running around in cages doing all

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Speaker 3: this transfer. And the whole idea is by doing this

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Speaker 3: transfer taking enf cash, it makes it no longer real.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and then it again desensitizes you from the money

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Speaker 1: that you're losing. I'm curious too, You mentioned that we're

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Speaker 1: all paying higher prices because the shrinkage involved in credit

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Speaker 1: card theft, and so in the fact that the credit

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Speaker 1: card companies they take a fee every time. But man,

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Speaker 1: as consumers were addicted to the rewards that those credit

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Speaker 1: cards offers, right, and so Visa and MasterCard they crush.

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Speaker 1: They've done incredibly well. But how much has that shift

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Speaker 1: away from using cash as individuals? How much has that

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Speaker 1: really impacted prices? Can you put a number on it?

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Speaker 1: Can you like? Yeah, any detail there?

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Speaker 3: So in general, Visa a master Card charge and I'm

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Speaker 3: being rough here about two percent, And it really depends

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Speaker 3: exactly on which particular credit card or debit card you're using.

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Speaker 3: The more your credit card has rewards on it, the

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Speaker 3: fancy of your credit card, the bigger the cut the

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Speaker 3: banking system is going to take from the merchant. And

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Speaker 3: more importantly, buy now, Pay Later has become really popular,

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Speaker 3: especially among your younger listeners. Yeah, buy now, pay later.

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Speaker 3: It takes sometimes between five and six percent as a cut,

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Speaker 3: Wow merchant.

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Speaker 1: And that's because they when people use by now, pay

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Speaker 1: later again, much bigger shopping cart size, as much bigger spends.

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Speaker 3: Yes, the retailers love buy now, Pay later because people

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Speaker 3: like I don't have the money, but wow, I can

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Speaker 3: pay for it over four installments. I can actually afford

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Speaker 3: this and buy now, pay later for merchants is very

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Speaker 3: good because instead of showing the whole price, instead of

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Speaker 3: showing a one hundred dollars, it says twenty five dollars

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Speaker 3: payable in four installments. And mentally, even though we all

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Speaker 3: know we should be doing the math the multiplication, we don't.

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Speaker 3: So we see twenty five dollars over four installments, we go, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I can afford that. By instead of looking at one

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Speaker 3: hundred dollars and go ooh, that's a little outside my

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Speaker 3: budget range, we're.

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Speaker 1: Just less price sensitive, which then yeah, we just get on.

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Speaker 2: That end of the cycle of making these payments. And

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Speaker 2: so you're talking about prices here and in relation to

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Speaker 2: the wine example, Jay, go back to privacy for a second.

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Speaker 2: So like we're talking about prices, let's jump back to privacy.

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Speaker 2: Do you think that we should be worried about In

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Speaker 2: your case, you're talking about your wife, you know, knowing

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Speaker 2: how much you spent or didn't spend on a one

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Speaker 2: of those Magnum bottles, But should we be worried about

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Speaker 2: other people or companies knowing what it is that we're purchasing,

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Speaker 2: how much we're buying.

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Speaker 4: Or should be targeting us, Yeah, or targeting.

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Speaker 2: That's why I'm going to get to Like, there's a

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Speaker 2: it reminds me of like cookies on like social media apps,

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Speaker 2: and all of a sudden and they're able to serve

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Speaker 2: up relevant ads that sometimes I'll be honest, I actually

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Speaker 2: don't hate. Like sometimes I'm like, oh, I wish they

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Speaker 2: didn't know that, or I can't believe that they know

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Speaker 2: that about me.

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Speaker 4: But then like there's a pair of shorts.

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Speaker 2: I owe multiple pairs of the shorts that it was

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Speaker 2: served up to me, and I would never have known

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Speaker 2: about these shorts had it not been for cookies. And

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Speaker 2: so I guess I'm trying to create some sort of argument,

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Speaker 2: I guess for being tracked, but talk about how terrible

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Speaker 2: it might be for us to actually be tracked.

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Speaker 3: Matt, I teach at the Questionum School of Business, and

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Speaker 3: tomorrow is Questions graduation day. It's that depends when exactly

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Speaker 3: you listen, but right now it's the middle of May.

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Speaker 3: And what I really noticed about my students is when

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Speaker 3: I talk to them about privacy, like, ah, I have

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Speaker 3: an open book right, and they post pretty much everything

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Speaker 3: they want on social media. And right around graduation day,

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Speaker 3: I see my undergraduates do something really bizarre. They start

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Speaker 3: scrubbing their social media because they're like, oh my god,

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Speaker 3: I have now have to get a job. I can't

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Speaker 3: actually have all these things out there. So while in

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Speaker 3: school they say they don't care about privacy, at a

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Speaker 3: certain moment in their life, when they sort of transition

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Speaker 3: from college students into adults, they go, Wow, privacy is important.

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Speaker 3: I really don't want my entire life to be an

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Speaker 3: open book. And when you start using electronic transactions, you

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Speaker 3: are creating a permanent record that cannot be scrubbed like

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Speaker 3: your social media feed. You are telling banks, you are

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Speaker 3: telling Visa a MasterCard, you are telling shops your entire

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Speaker 3: purchasing history. And sometimes that entire purchasing history can be

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Speaker 3: either embarrassing or not the type of history you want

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Speaker 3: to show people. Let me tell you a quick example.

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Speaker 3: Amazon's been around for a very long time, and I

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Speaker 3: remember trying out Amazon, oh probably twenty five thirty years

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Speaker 3: ago when it was pretty new, and I had a

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Speaker 3: niece who really loved samurai things, and she was like, oh, uncle,

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Speaker 3: can you do me a favor. I want a sewd

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Speaker 3: for Christmas?

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Speaker 1: Sure?

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Speaker 3: Why not? I mean, so I bought her on Amazon,

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Speaker 3: a samuraized sword. Amazon for decades put me into a

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Speaker 3: basket as somebody who wanted guns, knives, and swords all

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Speaker 3: the time. And it was really hard. I had young

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Speaker 3: children at the time, and they would come by and

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Speaker 3: Daddy was sitting on the computer and like, Daddy, you

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Speaker 3: don't let us play with guns, knives and swords. How

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Speaker 3: they're always showing you these big guns, knives and swords.

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Speaker 3: And I was like, it's real hard to explain to

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Speaker 3: a small child that dad once bought this for somebody

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Speaker 3: else and is now pinned as a particular type of individual.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. One of the other reasons that you state in

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Speaker 1: the book that cash is superior to digital forms of

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Speaker 1: payment is if a natural disaster comes along, So can

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Speaker 1: you maybe highlight a time in recent memory when something happened,

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Speaker 1: whether it was like a hurricane or a fire or

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Speaker 1: something like that, and cash was just a necessity for

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Speaker 1: people to transact where digital payments wouldn't suffice. And maybe

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Speaker 1: how that's even potentially more problem given kind of what

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Speaker 1: happens in modern warfare. These days.

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Speaker 3: So why did I write this book. I wrote this

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Speaker 3: book to talk about two things, one individuals and two

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Speaker 3: societal reasons. And you're not switching into the societal reasons.

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Speaker 3: But only two weeks ago, the entire country of Spain,

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Speaker 3: in the entire country or Portugal, suffered a power outage

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Speaker 3: for a very long time, well over a day before

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Speaker 3: they were able to get the power back. All electronic

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Speaker 3: payments need three things. They need electricity, that's why they're

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Speaker 3: called electronic payments. They need communication networks because when you're

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Speaker 3: in some store or some shop, they have to communicate

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Speaker 3: to the central servers. And number three, they need computers

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Speaker 3: that are robust that have not been hacked. And in

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Speaker 3: natural disasters and in man made disasters, none of those

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Speaker 3: three things necessarily work. For example, the Spain and Portugal examples,

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Speaker 3: electricity went out, there was no way to do like

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Speaker 3: tronic transfers. But many of your listeners when I looked up,

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Speaker 3: are from the United States, not all, but many, And

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Speaker 3: let me talk to them about why they need to

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Speaker 3: use cash at least once a week, and it's called

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Speaker 3: psps's public safety power shutoffs. Back in February, we had

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Speaker 3: wildfires in Los Angeles. Who's going to be blamed for

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Speaker 3: those wildfires? Who's going to have to pay billions of

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Speaker 3: dollars or damages? And the answer is power companies. Right now.

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Speaker 3: What happened is the land dried out a little bit

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Speaker 3: of drought, primarily because of global warming, and then an

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Speaker 3: electrical cable fell from the power company onto the ground,

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Speaker 3: ignited some fires, and people are going to sue the

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Speaker 3: power companies. Power companies basically from west of the Mississippi

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Speaker 3: River all the way to Hawaii are looking at massive,

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Speaker 3: massive liability suits. And their answer to these massive liability

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Speaker 3: suits is, whenever a drought in high winds, we're going

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Speaker 3: to preemptively shut off all the power. And in the

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Speaker 3: next few years you're going to see psps's well la

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Speaker 3: is shut down for three days all the power. Why

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Speaker 3: because the local power company doesn't want to be sued

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Speaker 3: for ten billion dollars or twenty billion dollars if a

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Speaker 3: PSPs happens in your neighborhood. Electronic payments don't work, So

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Speaker 3: why do I encourage all listeners to use cash at

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Speaker 3: least once a week. Why don't a lot of people

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Speaker 3: say to me, well, whenever a PSPs shows up, I'll

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Speaker 3: just stuff some money in my mattress, I'll pull it

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Speaker 3: out and I'll use it. Then that's the wrong way

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Speaker 3: to think about it, because unless cash is being used

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Speaker 3: all the time. For example, clerks do not handle cash.

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Speaker 3: Banks aren't there. They don't have bank branches or ATMs

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Speaker 3: that can accept cash. There's no transport companies, no armored

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Speaker 3: cars able to move cash around. You need to be

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Speaker 3: using cash all the time so that when one of

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Speaker 3: these emergencies like a PSPs, like earthquake, like a hurricane happens,

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Speaker 3: that the society is like, okay, no problem. We have cash.

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Speaker 3: We know how to use it. People have it in

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Speaker 3: their wallets, clerks know how to handle it.

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Speaker 1: It's a muscle. We don't want to atrophy, all right.

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Speaker 3: It's a muscle. It's like swimming. You know, you don't

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Speaker 3: when you fall over the side of the boat. You

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Speaker 3: don't want to say I think twenty years ago, I

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Speaker 3: knew how to swim, but I haven't done lately. You know,

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Speaker 3: you need to do it every now and then to

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Speaker 3: keep going. And then when you fall out the side

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Speaker 3: the boat, you're like, damn, I'm getting wet. I lost

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Speaker 3: my beer over.

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Speaker 1: The side of the boat.

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Speaker 3: Okay, but I can swim back.

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Speaker 1: To the boat.

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Speaker 3: Okay, it's the same thing with cash. Now, let me

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Speaker 3: tell you a quick story. I went to the supermarket

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Speaker 3: a couple of weeks ago. I handed the lady some

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Speaker 3: cash for my payments, and I was supposed to get

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Speaker 3: back forty cents in change, and she smiled at me.

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Speaker 3: She pulled out four nichols handed to me A nichol

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Speaker 3: is five cents. That's four times five is twenty cents.

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Speaker 3: I smiled her and said, no, no, no, no, no, no, not

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Speaker 3: the right amount, and she kind of stared at me blankly.

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Speaker 3: And the head cashier was two aisles over saw what

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Speaker 3: was going on on and came over. Had explained to

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Speaker 3: the cashier the difference between nikels and dimes, and he was, ah,

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Speaker 3: I see the difference. Okay, now I get it, and

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Speaker 3: she handed me four dimes. I handed her back the

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Speaker 3: four nickels and I got my forty cents. But it

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Speaker 3: showed me that people are starting to lose the ability

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Speaker 3: to recognize coins. Now it's not only coins. My wife

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Speaker 3: went to the doctor just about a couple of days

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Speaker 3: after this experience happened, and my wife owes a five

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Speaker 3: dollar copay when she goes to visit the doctor's office. Okay,

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Speaker 3: five dollars. My wife only had a ten dollar bill

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Speaker 3: on her. She pulled out a ten dollar bill, handed

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Speaker 3: it to the receptionist. The receptor and said, yes, we

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Speaker 3: can handle cash, opened the draw and handed my wife

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Speaker 3: a fifty dollar bill. Now, my wife said, thank you

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Speaker 3: very very much. You made my day, but I don't

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Speaker 3: think you really meant to do that. And the receptionist

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Speaker 3: kind of looked at her blankly and was like what

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Speaker 3: I handed you to change, like, go sit down and

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Speaker 3: wait for the doctor. My wife was like, you gave

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Speaker 3: me back fifty dollars, not five, and she held out

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Speaker 3: to fifty. The receptionist looked at the fifty and was

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Speaker 3: like amazed.

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Speaker 1: Like like I didn't know those existed.

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Speaker 3: Almost exactly was what my wife said, right, like, wow,

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Speaker 3: five minutes zero, that's different, I guess. So we need

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Speaker 3: to be using cash so that people a understand it

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Speaker 3: and b as I said a couple of moments ago,

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Speaker 3: there's the resources for moving cash around in society.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, that makes sense. We've got a lot

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Speaker 1: more we want to get to with you, Jay, including

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Speaker 1: like Okay, how do we actually transition in a world

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Speaker 1: where digital payments are the standard and it's kind of

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Speaker 1: what everyone gravitates towards. How do we kind of buck

433
00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:45,640
Speaker 1: the system. We'll talk about that and more. Right after this, we.

434
00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:48,000
Speaker 2: Are back with the break talking with Professor Jay z

435
00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:51,359
Speaker 2: and Jay. Right before the break, you talked to like

436
00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:53,840
Speaker 2: you were getting into the impacts on society, Like it's

437
00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:56,439
Speaker 2: almost like a public service that you are doing and

438
00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:58,360
Speaker 2: that you are encouraging all of us to do at

439
00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:01,760
Speaker 2: the very least to do this on a weekly basis.

440
00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:03,960
Speaker 2: But is this one of the reasons why we've seen

441
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:08,000
Speaker 2: some countries resist the cashless sort of society. I was

442
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:13,080
Speaker 2: actually surprised to see Japan being cited as a country

443
00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:15,439
Speaker 2: like you think of Japan, or at least I do,

444
00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:16,440
Speaker 2: I think of Tokyo.

445
00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:17,560
Speaker 4: You think of like.

446
00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:21,840
Speaker 2: Super modern, super modern, like like everywhere, like Blade Runner,

447
00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:24,600
Speaker 2: like twenty fifty five, like kind of modern. But talk

448
00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:27,720
Speaker 2: to us about how different countries are approaching cashless societies.

449
00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:31,240
Speaker 3: We have a variety of ways that cash is being handled,

450
00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:34,360
Speaker 3: and places like Japan and Germany cash is still king

451
00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:38,119
Speaker 3: and countries like China and Sweden, people look at you

452
00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:40,120
Speaker 3: when you hand them cash and they're like, we don't

453
00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:43,639
Speaker 3: have any ability to handle cash in Sweden. I was

454
00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:46,840
Speaker 3: talking to somebody two days ago who lives in Sweden,

455
00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:49,199
Speaker 3: and she said, if I want cash, I have to

456
00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:51,480
Speaker 3: call up the bank and make an appointment two weeks

457
00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:52,120
Speaker 3: ahead of time.

458
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:53,000
Speaker 1: What's that?

459
00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:57,560
Speaker 3: That's what she said? I believe her. She she said,

460
00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:00,320
Speaker 3: I lived in Sweden. My own dire life. Wow, has

461
00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:02,480
Speaker 3: disappeared so much in Sweden that I have to make

462
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,159
Speaker 3: an appointment two weeks ahead of time for cash. And

463
00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:09,000
Speaker 3: that the only places in Sweden that accept cash, she said,

464
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:13,040
Speaker 3: we're supermarkets, grocery stores and drug stores, right, so you

465
00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:15,960
Speaker 3: can get food with cash, and you can get medicine,

466
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:19,639
Speaker 3: but no place else in Sweden accepts cash. Now, I

467
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:23,280
Speaker 3: said to her, this is a national defense problem. And

468
00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:27,199
Speaker 3: why because the Swedes are very concerned about Russia and

469
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:31,840
Speaker 3: if Russia decides to invade, Well, there's many ways of

470
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:35,320
Speaker 3: basically bringing a country to its knees. You can vomit,

471
00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:39,639
Speaker 3: but a simpler way in an all electronic society is

472
00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:41,960
Speaker 3: prevent people from spending money.

473
00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:47,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, like a patriogal Yeah, I mean, I mean, and

474
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:49,040
Speaker 2: like I say that slightly tongue in cheek, but like

475
00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:50,800
Speaker 2: it's it's really true if you think about it, if

476
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:52,640
Speaker 2: you think about the kind of scenario that they're in,

477
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:53,679
Speaker 2: or if you it.

478
00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:56,600
Speaker 1: Seems more and more likely the electronic grid being.

479
00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:59,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, like Spain and the blackouts were like as far

480
00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:02,400
Speaker 2: as I know, they still haven't been able to identify

481
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:05,280
Speaker 2: why that happened. And it starts like not to get

482
00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:07,640
Speaker 2: all conspiracy theory, but you start to think, man, it

483
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:11,080
Speaker 2: really would not take much to like you said, Jay,

484
00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:13,720
Speaker 2: to bring a country to its knees. Taking the grid

485
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:17,080
Speaker 2: off is more impactful than traphic than bombs.

486
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:19,800
Speaker 1: Right. So, Jay, I'm curious too if you think there's

487
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:23,199
Speaker 1: like a moral element at play here, because when in

488
00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:26,000
Speaker 1: kind of our digital system, more and more people are

489
00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:30,960
Speaker 1: finding themselves enslave to consumerism and they find themselves with

490
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,360
Speaker 1: massive amounts of debt that they can't realistically pay off.

491
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:37,360
Speaker 1: So do you think there's and then on the yeah,

492
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:39,680
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think there's like a real problem

493
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:41,639
Speaker 1: here with how far we've gone in the digital direction

494
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:45,199
Speaker 1: that's led to a lot of the financial instability that

495
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:46,480
Speaker 1: a lot of households face.

496
00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:50,360
Speaker 3: It's not only financial instability, And I agree with you

497
00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:54,840
Speaker 3: that electronic payments encourages consumerism, which is why stores really

498
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:58,960
Speaker 3: like electronic payments, and why banks love electronic payments and are,

499
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:02,200
Speaker 3: in my mind, trying to kill off cash because banks

500
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:04,679
Speaker 3: don't really make any money on cash. It costs them

501
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:06,679
Speaker 3: money to put up an ATM machine, it costs them

502
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:09,800
Speaker 3: money to stock tellers with cash and have them hand

503
00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:12,720
Speaker 3: out cash with credit cards and debit cards or so

504
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:16,240
Speaker 3: it's relatively low cost for them, and they can make

505
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:21,320
Speaker 3: money because well, we all tend to overspend. But let's

506
00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:23,680
Speaker 3: talk about a different part of the moral argument here.

507
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:26,600
Speaker 3: There are a number of people who are relatively poor.

508
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:29,480
Speaker 3: I don't think anybody who's pretty poor is going to

509
00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:32,200
Speaker 3: be listening to your podcast. I'm talking about, for example,

510
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:35,160
Speaker 3: people like homelessness. I spend a fair amount of time

511
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:39,639
Speaker 3: in Seattle visiting, and the neighborhood I tend to visit

512
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:44,679
Speaker 3: is very, very high tech and preppy. It's within walking

513
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:50,040
Speaker 3: distance of Amazon's headquarters. Tableau is there, Seattle's Google's Seattle

514
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:55,399
Speaker 3: headquarters is there, and almost every store. Almost every shop

515
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:59,360
Speaker 3: has a sign no cash accepted, right on the front door. Now, Seattle,

516
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:02,480
Speaker 3: if you've ever been in there, has a massive homeless population,

517
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:06,520
Speaker 3: very very large number of homeless people. And what is

518
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,359
Speaker 3: no cash accepted on the front door? Say and says

519
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:11,879
Speaker 3: you're homeless, you don't have a credit card or a

520
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:16,119
Speaker 3: debit card, stay out. And this is not on every

521
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 3: high end store the place I get my cup of

522
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 3: coffee in my bagel in the morning. When I visit Seattle,

523
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:25,840
Speaker 3: the highest price they have I think is fourteen dollars

524
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 3: for like, you know, the smoked salmon bagel sandwich. And

525
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:33,199
Speaker 3: there's a guy who sleeps across from this shop that

526
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:35,480
Speaker 3: I've seen pretty much all the time I visit there.

527
00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:37,919
Speaker 3: That's pretty you know, he's homeless. He's homeless, and he

528
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:41,240
Speaker 3: lives on in this park bench over there. If I

529
00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 3: give him five dollars, he can't walk into the bagel

530
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 3: shop and buy himself a bagel and.

531
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:46,880
Speaker 1: A cup of coffee. It does seem messed up.

532
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:49,600
Speaker 3: And I'm not giving him my credit card. I'm sorry.

533
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:51,480
Speaker 3: I'm tend to be a nice guy. But am I

534
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 3: handing in my credit card? You're not handing in my

535
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:55,280
Speaker 3: cell phone and say, hey, dude, go make a mobile

536
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:56,440
Speaker 3: payment and go buy what you want.

537
00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 2: Sure, I know the other things I think about too,

538
00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:01,760
Speaker 2: just I mean we're talking about some of the different

539
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 2: implications on society, and I mean, in this case you're

540
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:07,720
Speaker 2: talking about the poor. I also think about kids as well,

541
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:12,159
Speaker 2: And lately I have found myself jay reverting back to

542
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:16,159
Speaker 2: using cash. I think when Joel and I first started

543
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 2: talking about personal finance a little more regularly here on

544
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:21,560
Speaker 2: the podcast, and we were like, oh, man, we're going

545
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:23,480
Speaker 2: to do this. I'm not going to say the company's nay,

546
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 2: but as a company and you have like a little

547
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:28,400
Speaker 2: card that's associated with it, and you're able to electronically

548
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 2: move the money.

549
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,200
Speaker 1: For kids as young as like six or seven. Yeah,

550
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:32,240
Speaker 1: And I realized that.

551
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:35,399
Speaker 2: We completely just jumped the gun when it came to

552
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:39,360
Speaker 2: implementing a system like that. But talk about that, how

553
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 2: the elimination of cash, and how that could prevent our

554
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:46,439
Speaker 2: ability to teach our kids about money spending saving.

555
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 3: I want to teach talk to you about a full

556
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 3: letter word, and that's called math and A and before

557
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:57,639
Speaker 3: you can actually start teaching kids about making sound financial decisions.

558
00:27:57,680 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 3: And I'm all full of sound financial decisions. You have

559
00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:02,480
Speaker 3: to each amount of count, how to basically figure out

560
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:06,919
Speaker 3: fractions and things like that. And if we don't use cash,

561
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:11,880
Speaker 3: then we tend not to use our mathematical skills. Quick example,

562
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:15,119
Speaker 3: if I'm using cash in a supermarket, I am adding

563
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 3: up as I throw items into my cart. I'm going, Okay,

564
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:21,119
Speaker 3: this costs you two dollars, this costs four dollars, and

565
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:23,200
Speaker 3: I keep a running total because I don't want to

566
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:25,480
Speaker 3: be embarrassed when I go show up with the cash

567
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:27,919
Speaker 3: here and go oops, I don't have enough money. Okay.

568
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 3: But when I'm using a credit card, and occasionally I

569
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:32,800
Speaker 3: know I'm going to be using a credit card because

570
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:36,119
Speaker 3: I just ran out of money, or I really have

571
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 3: to spend more and I don't know what I have

572
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 3: to buy. For example, we're having a party and the

573
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 3: wife says to me, Okay, we got about twenty people,

574
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 3: and I don't know exactly what we need, so I'm

575
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 3: going to use a credit card. When I use a

576
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:48,840
Speaker 3: credit card, I stop accounting, I stop doing math in

577
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 3: my head.

578
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:51,960
Speaker 1: Is it kind of like using a GPS and how

579
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:55,040
Speaker 1: we forget to get how to get places in it?

580
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 3: Right? You have no idea how to get places, even

581
00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 3: if it's local and you might have been there four

582
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,480
Speaker 3: or five times. It's like without GPS, I can't do it.

583
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:01,960
Speaker 1: That's right.

584
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:07,080
Speaker 3: So math is really important for teaching small children. Sorry,

585
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:11,000
Speaker 3: cash is really useful for teaching small children math ideas.

586
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 3: Fractions really easy to explain using something like coins. What's

587
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 3: a quarter? Well, a quarter of something is, you know,

588
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:21,880
Speaker 3: twenty five cents? You know four quarters equal a dollar?

589
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 3: And when people play with cash at five, six, seven

590
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 3: years old, they go, oh, I get it.

591
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:30,080
Speaker 1: Yeah. One of the arguments you make Jay in the book,

592
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 1: which kind of shocked me. I wasn't expecting to see

593
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,440
Speaker 1: because you're making the case for math and how the

594
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 1: more we use cash, the better our mass skills are.

595
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 1: It's good, especially for kids, it's good, but even as

596
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 1: adults try to keep that skill around. But you also

597
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 1: argue that using cash keeps you healthier. And I was like,

598
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 1: h what's that about? Do you have any data to

599
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:50,480
Speaker 1: back that up? How do we How is using cash

600
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 1: going to make us healthier people?

601
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:55,440
Speaker 3: So you're talking about one of the points in my book,

602
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 3: the Power of Cash, which I hope everybody listening to

603
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 3: this reads. But there's a couple of studies out there

604
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:04,720
Speaker 3: that show when people pay cash, they actually pay more

605
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:07,960
Speaker 3: attention to what they're putting in their supermarket shopping card.

606
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 4: Huh.

607
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:13,280
Speaker 3: And when you're not paying with cash, you're just using credit.

608
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 3: You just sort of throw things in. And you asked

609
00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 3: at the beginning of the show my weakness, and I

610
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 3: told you about large, large bottles of wine. I try

611
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 3: and use cash as much as possible. It's very hard

612
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:26,600
Speaker 3: to write a book called The Power of Cash and

613
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:29,240
Speaker 3: not use cash a lot. But let me be honest

614
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 3: with you. I do have a credit card in my wallet,

615
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:34,240
Speaker 3: and occasionally I use that credit card for buying things.

616
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:37,760
Speaker 3: And typically it's at Costco because Costco is a sort

617
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 3: of surprise. You walk in, you have no idea what

618
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 3: you're going to see there. And oftentimes I walk into

619
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 3: Costco with about one hundred dollars in my wallet and

620
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:46,640
Speaker 3: I have, you know, three things in mind. I'm gonna

621
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 3: buy some milk, some eggs, and maybe some fish and

622
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 3: that's it. Bang, I'm gonna have plenty of money left over.

623
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 3: And then I walk by like the chocolates and the champagne,

624
00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:59,440
Speaker 3: and I'm like ooh. And the moment I say I

625
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 3: am not going to use cash, Okay, I can use

626
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:04,000
Speaker 3: a credit card, I just start throwing all kind of

627
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 3: junk into my car because it's like, well, I've eliminated

628
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 3: the constraint on spending, and I've also limited the constraint

629
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:12,520
Speaker 3: on eating healthy.

630
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:15,600
Speaker 2: And Jay is also throwing a greenhouse in his cart

631
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 2: while he's at it as well, anything your house go.

632
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 3: Actually, I looked at the small Children's playhouse last week.

633
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 3: When I was walking through there, it was like five

634
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 3: hundred and ninety nine dollars. I was like ooh, and

635
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:27,840
Speaker 3: the wife was like, come on order to fit in

636
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 3: a car. I was like, oh, this is so cool

637
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:31,160
Speaker 3: for the kids to play in.

638
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 1: Yeah.

639
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:34,600
Speaker 3: But once again, when you suddenly say okay, I'm not

640
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,760
Speaker 3: using cash, you lose that constraint, and you can lose

641
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 3: that constraint both nutritionally but also on anything else that

642
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:45,080
Speaker 3: why it would be nice to have, wouldn't it until

643
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 3: you get the bill thirty days later.

644
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:49,080
Speaker 2: I feel like that there's also something there when it

645
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 2: comes to health, and even I don't know this, This

646
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 2: might be a little more out there and a little

647
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 2: more woo woo, But the germs even that are like,

648
00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:58,760
Speaker 2: I guess you're talking about being healthy? Makes me even

649
00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:00,560
Speaker 2: think about that, right? And you think terms we get

650
00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:02,760
Speaker 2: from touching cash, yes, and like kids who grow up

651
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:09,080
Speaker 2: like on a farm, they're exposed to other allergens, different viruses,

652
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 2: things like that, as opposed to the boy who grew

653
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:13,720
Speaker 2: up in a bubble, right, And there's there's a big

654
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 2: difference when it comes to the antibodies that And I

655
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:18,120
Speaker 2: don't I'm not like a scientist or anything like that,

656
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 2: but I know.

657
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:22,240
Speaker 4: There's a there's plenty of a holiday and last backing

658
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 4: that as well. But I don't. I don't hear you

659
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 4: making that argument necessarily, Jay.

660
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 3: I'm not making the argument. But a lot of people

661
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 3: call you know it's filthy cash, right, I don't want

662
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 3: to touch it? Who else has touched it? And then

663
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:35,520
Speaker 3: my response to them is, Okay, you just pulled out

664
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:38,040
Speaker 3: your debit card and when you put your debit card

665
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:40,480
Speaker 3: into the machine asks you for your pin number, right,

666
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 3: and you had to type in your pin. Did anyone

667
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 3: clean that pin machine? Though not not mon probably not

668
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:49,080
Speaker 3: so since no one cleaned the pin machine, why is

669
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 3: the cash cleaner or dirtier than the pin machine you

670
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 3: were just touching with your fingers, I.

671
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 2: Will say that's why the double click to pay using Apple,

672
00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:00,120
Speaker 2: the Apple wallet or whatever other different digital walls they

673
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:01,720
Speaker 2: had built in. I think that's a part of why

674
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:03,760
Speaker 2: that those have gained so much team as well, because

675
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 2: I mean you barely have to wait, yeah, you barely

676
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 2: have to wave the card or the phone in front

677
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 2: of the device. But I thought Jay was gonna say,

678
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:14,920
Speaker 2: it's not filthy cash, it's the filthy data that's being collected.

679
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:16,680
Speaker 3: A lot of people. I also know, I said, oh,

680
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 3: I just love my cell phone because only I'm the

681
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:21,040
Speaker 3: one touching my cell phone. And you know what drives

682
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 3: me crazy is how many people use their cell phone

683
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:28,120
Speaker 3: in the bathroom. Excuse me, So you're using your phone,

684
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:30,520
Speaker 3: I'm being serious. How many times have you sent install

685
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:32,680
Speaker 3: in somebody's next to you is like having a screaming

686
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:36,360
Speaker 3: conversation with their so their children or something like that.

687
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:38,880
Speaker 3: And I'm like, free story, yeah, and like your phone

688
00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 3: is now clean? I don't think so. I didn't see

689
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 3: you washing your hands and your phone.

690
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 1: Yeah.

691
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:46,760
Speaker 2: The worst part, honestly is knowing that truth. But then

692
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 2: at restaurants are purveyors of food who are selling and

693
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:52,520
Speaker 2: they've got like either they're waiting on the next customer

694
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 2: and they've got their phone out and then they set

695
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 2: it down on the same counter that maybe they're cutting sandwiches,

696
00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 2: and like, I know, there's got to be health code

697
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:03,200
Speaker 2: violin against pulling out your peres up in here cell phones.

698
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:04,880
Speaker 2: That's just a small pep peple of mind that we

699
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:05,720
Speaker 2: don't talk about.

700
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 1: It, right, So I want to I want to ask Jay,

701
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 1: like you, you started off this conversation by saying, Hey,

702
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:12,640
Speaker 1: I just want to convince you to use cash once

703
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 1: a week. I think you have convinced me of that.

704
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:18,040
Speaker 1: Do you have like an ultimate end goal here? Is

705
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:20,880
Speaker 1: it saying no, I want people to use cash fifty

706
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:22,880
Speaker 1: to sixty percent of the time. Is it really just

707
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 1: to keep cash around or is it all these added

708
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 1: benefits that individuals get from using cash on the regular

709
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 1: and not pulling out their credit card or their Apple pay.

710
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 3: So right now, in the United States, last year, the

711
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:40,880
Speaker 3: banking system spent over one billion dollars advertising credit cards,

712
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:44,040
Speaker 3: not including crypto ads or any of these other things,

713
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:48,239
Speaker 3: just basic credit card advertising. And I'm up against a

714
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:50,719
Speaker 3: one billion dollar advertising campaign, and as we all know,

715
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:54,400
Speaker 3: advertising is very very effective. So I'm trying to start

716
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:57,239
Speaker 3: with something really small, you know, use cash at least

717
00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:00,120
Speaker 3: once a week, keep it in circulation. My hope is

718
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,319
Speaker 3: that if you start using cash once a week and

719
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:04,920
Speaker 3: you read the book The Power of Cash and go, Wow,

720
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:06,880
Speaker 3: there's a whole bunch of benefits, You're going to use

721
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:10,400
Speaker 3: it more and more often. I am an extreme advocate

722
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:13,319
Speaker 3: for using paper money, but I would say right now,

723
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:17,880
Speaker 3: I'm about two thirds paper money one third electronics. And

724
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:21,240
Speaker 3: why do I use things electronically because to some places

725
00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 3: that you just can't use cash. If I use cash

726
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:26,279
Speaker 3: and bought an airplane ticket, my guess is I'd be

727
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:30,720
Speaker 3: on the TSA watch list. Terror I'm being serious, that's true.

728
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:32,880
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know who gets on the TSA

729
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:37,080
Speaker 3: watch list, but it's really tough to you know, the

730
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 3: certain things. If I want to book a hotel for

731
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:42,520
Speaker 3: two or three weeks from now for when I'm speaking

732
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:45,520
Speaker 3: in some other place, I can't use cash. I can't

733
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 3: like fly there three weeks ahead of time, pay them

734
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:50,879
Speaker 3: cash and then come back. So I know that there's

735
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:54,360
Speaker 3: a place for electronic payments. But what I'm really concerned

736
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 3: about is we have lost the idea that cash is useful.

737
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:01,360
Speaker 3: And my whole goal here is to people cash is useful.

738
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 3: It has so many wonderful benefits, and by using it

739
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:07,759
Speaker 3: just once or twice a week, you might see more

740
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:09,480
Speaker 3: benefits and start using it more often.

741
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:11,440
Speaker 1: It keeps those wheels greased. Yeah.

742
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:14,319
Speaker 2: Now, Jay, you're making a great case here, and we've

743
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:16,360
Speaker 2: got more to get to. We'll talk about for some

744
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 2: folks actually transitioning back to cash, maybe what that would take.

745
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:20,520
Speaker 2: We'll get to that and more.

746
00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 1: Right after this, we're back still talking with Professor j

747
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:37,160
Speaker 1: Z from Boston University. And Jay, you mentioned briefly before

748
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 1: the break cryptocurrency and bitcoin, and it's interesting because you're fighting.

749
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:43,719
Speaker 1: It feels like the battle you're fighting is not only

750
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:47,400
Speaker 1: this uphill battle against the forces of billion dollar marketing

751
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:50,960
Speaker 1: budgets like you mentioned too, but it's also hey, young people,

752
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:55,480
Speaker 1: they're all about trading the cryptos and potentially using the

753
00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:58,439
Speaker 1: cryptos in the future to buy stuff. So far from

754
00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:01,560
Speaker 1: cash becoming cool again, crypto is popping. Is what's your

755
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:05,440
Speaker 1: answer to the cryptocurrency movement as someone who is a

756
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:07,680
Speaker 1: proponent of cash.

757
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:10,200
Speaker 3: So I'm not against cryptocurrency in any way, shape or form.

758
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 3: But the problem with cryptocurrency is you need a electricity

759
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:19,160
Speaker 3: and you need an Internet connection in order to access that.

760
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:22,440
Speaker 3: And as we see more and more, for example, natural

761
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:25,840
Speaker 3: disasters or more and more potential for war in the world.

762
00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:30,160
Speaker 3: The ability for you to use cryptocurrency is I would

763
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:34,560
Speaker 3: say suspect, and I don't remember the exact place I

764
00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:36,320
Speaker 3: read it, but I remember the very beginning of the

765
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:39,960
Speaker 3: Ukrainian War and they interviewed some person who was really

766
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:43,160
Speaker 3: big into cryptocurrency, and the guy was like, wow, I

767
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:46,920
Speaker 3: thought I was protected because I had cryptocurrency, but we

768
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:50,759
Speaker 3: don't have Internet because the Russian missiles, Russian missiles best

769
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:53,920
Speaker 3: really take took out the Internet. I can't access my wallet.

770
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:58,680
Speaker 3: My digital wallet is like offline to me. So the

771
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:02,360
Speaker 3: idea of cryptocurrency, that's okay. I don't see any difference

772
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:04,880
Speaker 3: between cryptocurrency in my mind and using say a credit

773
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:08,279
Speaker 3: card or a debit card, except for cryptocurrency isn't going

774
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:11,040
Speaker 3: to charge you relatively high interest rates.

775
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:14,319
Speaker 2: Right, Okay, So I'm hearing what you're saying. You're talking

776
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:16,719
Speaker 2: about at least using it once a week. Actually, this

777
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 2: also makes me think about two how I mean, and

778
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:20,840
Speaker 2: we talked about higher prices, but it also makes me

779
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:23,000
Speaker 2: think about how like at restaurants now more and more

780
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:25,520
Speaker 2: we're seeing the discounts where it's just like, hey, by

781
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:26,880
Speaker 2: the way, if you pay with credit card's going to

782
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:28,360
Speaker 2: be two to three percent more expensive.

783
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:32,239
Speaker 1: I bet Jay loves that. He's always yeah, the surcharge

784
00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:35,960
Speaker 1: from gestations, it makes it clear, It makes it incredibly transparent.

785
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:40,600
Speaker 2: But Jay, for most folks who aren't used to using cash,

786
00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:43,440
Speaker 2: how much would you recommend for them to start sliding

787
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 2: in the wallet? You know, I've got like the head

788
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 2: and twenty behind my behind my driver's license, But it

789
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:51,800
Speaker 2: sounds like you're recommending for maybe me to increase that amount.

790
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 1: What would you recommend to folks?

791
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 3: So my recommendation is probably what a lot of your

792
00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:00,239
Speaker 3: recommenders have been before, and that's keep a little of

793
00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:02,719
Speaker 3: a budget, right, And once you figure out what your

794
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:05,280
Speaker 3: budget is, you know roughly what you spend per week.

795
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:09,880
Speaker 3: And my recommendation is keep roughly about a week around

796
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:14,360
Speaker 3: in your walls week's worth of cash. Going to an ATM,

797
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:16,399
Speaker 3: going to a bank as a pain all right, takes

798
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:18,640
Speaker 3: a little bit of extra time. How often do you

799
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:20,719
Speaker 3: want to do that for me? I like filling out

800
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:22,960
Speaker 3: my car like once a week. I like going to

801
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:24,120
Speaker 3: the bank like once a week.

802
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 1: That's enough.

803
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:25,920
Speaker 3: If I have to go to the bank every day

804
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:28,080
Speaker 3: or fill up my car every day. It's like, this's

805
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:30,560
Speaker 3: a hassle. I don't want to do it. So the

806
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:33,040
Speaker 3: goal is to use cash but not destroy your life

807
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:36,640
Speaker 3: becoming sure you know, you don't want to become best

808
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:38,560
Speaker 3: friends with the teller at the bank where they know

809
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:39,919
Speaker 3: your name is you walk in the door.

810
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:42,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, what about pennies? Jay? Is that's all we can

811
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:44,719
Speaker 1: agree on that pennies should be eliminated. There's been a

812
00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:45,880
Speaker 1: lot more talk about that.

813
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 3: We'll get to pennies in thirty seconds. Okay, but let

814
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:50,839
Speaker 3: me go back to restaurants for a minute. Okay, let's

815
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:54,640
Speaker 3: talk about restaurants. Waiters, waitresses, bartenders, and things like that.

816
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:57,719
Speaker 3: You swipe your credit card, you swipe your debit card.

817
00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:00,680
Speaker 3: What happens we'll talk in the credit card instant. The

818
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:03,360
Speaker 3: owner of that restaurant says, oh, the tip that you

819
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:05,520
Speaker 3: just gave to the waiter waitress, I'm not giving them

820
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:08,680
Speaker 3: that tip until I get payment from the credit card company.

821
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:11,880
Speaker 3: And there's often a multi week holdback period, So that

822
00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:14,400
Speaker 3: waight er waitress that you really like to say, thank you,

823
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 3: great meal, great service, is going to have to wait two, three,

824
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:21,680
Speaker 3: four weeks before they get paid. You pay them cash.

825
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:25,239
Speaker 3: You say thank you right away. I don't know about you,

826
00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:27,880
Speaker 3: but I like being thanked immediately instead of having to

827
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:28,720
Speaker 3: wait three weeks.

828
00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:31,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, pennies, you what are your thoughts?

829
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:36,840
Speaker 3: Okay, pennies. If you google Jason Goiski on the internet,

830
00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:39,000
Speaker 3: you will see that I've written a number of articles

831
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:44,560
Speaker 3: in defense of the penny. Okay that said, as inflation

832
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:48,080
Speaker 3: keeps going higher and higher and higher, pennies, well, they're

833
00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:51,120
Speaker 3: going to be eliminated sooner or later, okay, because they're

834
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:54,359
Speaker 3: going to be totally worthless. It's a shame, but it

835
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 3: is what it is. But let's talk about today. This

836
00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:01,239
Speaker 3: very moment, during the Super Bowl, Donald Trump sent out

837
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:04,000
Speaker 3: on truth Social message that I've instructed the Mint to

838
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:06,239
Speaker 3: stop making pennies. I don't know if you remember that.

839
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:07,080
Speaker 1: I do remember that.

840
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:11,280
Speaker 3: So he basically said, the supply of pennies is stopping

841
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:15,080
Speaker 3: right now, but he's done nothing about the demand for pennies.

842
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:21,640
Speaker 3: Stores need to be legally told to round prices away

843
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:24,560
Speaker 3: from pennies up to the nearest either nickel or dime,

844
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:27,680
Speaker 3: and the only institution that can do that is Congress.

845
00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:32,000
Speaker 3: So while Donald Trump says via truth Social that there's

846
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:36,520
Speaker 3: no more pennies. It's not actually true, and stores without

847
00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:39,960
Speaker 3: giving you your change or without doing rounding up, for example,

848
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:45,279
Speaker 3: would actually be breaking the law. And pennies they're still

849
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:48,400
Speaker 3: going to need to be around until Congress passes legislation

850
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:50,120
Speaker 3: that says we have to do rounding to either the

851
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:51,400
Speaker 3: nickel or the dime level.

852
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:54,520
Speaker 1: And that with sales tax I feel like throws an

853
00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:58,319
Speaker 1: extra wrench in there, right that the price, well, you

854
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:00,279
Speaker 1: know what you're charging, and then you you've got to

855
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:02,359
Speaker 1: throw the sales tax on, which could be seven point

856
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:04,799
Speaker 1: two percent or eight point one percent, and then that

857
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:08,279
Speaker 1: kind of makes it makes the math harder too.

858
00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:10,840
Speaker 3: It does, indeed, it does, indeed, which is why I

859
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:13,759
Speaker 3: don't think pennies are going to go away until Congress

860
00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 3: passes a legislation to do that. And I'm in favor

861
00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:21,600
Speaker 3: if Congress wants to pass legislation says let's round to

862
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 3: the nearest nickel or dime, I'd fully support that, But

863
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:28,600
Speaker 3: I do not support the ability for a president to say,

864
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:32,160
Speaker 3: via social media tweet, I've killed the penny.

865
00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:34,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, it makes sense. Jay.

866
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:37,239
Speaker 2: So one last, maybe more personal question. I'm trying to

867
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:39,560
Speaker 2: be practical here and you're talking about folks having a

868
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:42,920
Speaker 2: week's worth of expenses on hand? How much if you

869
00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:46,480
Speaker 2: feel comfortable sharing? Do you have I guess, either in

870
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:49,239
Speaker 2: your house or just some more secure when it comes

871
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:51,879
Speaker 2: to cash, because you were talking about the just the

872
00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:54,120
Speaker 2: ability to pay right like that was one of your ps.

873
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:57,279
Speaker 2: And if grids go down, if the different networks are

874
00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:00,120
Speaker 2: unable to communicate with each other, and you've got cash

875
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:02,400
Speaker 2: on hand, okay, well that buys you a certain amount

876
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:05,200
Speaker 2: of time. Like we talk about the emergency fund right

877
00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:07,880
Speaker 2: that we keep in Hyo Sam's accounts. But are you

878
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:12,200
Speaker 2: keeping a larger amount of physical cash yourself somewhere that

879
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:14,800
Speaker 2: you can access in case something like this were to happen.

880
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:19,280
Speaker 3: So I keep either on my wallet. If I added

881
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:21,920
Speaker 3: up everything in my wallet and what I've had stuffed

882
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:25,239
Speaker 3: in the mattress here at the home, I have three weeks.

883
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:28,040
Speaker 1: Weeks because is it literally stuffed in the mattress? Are

884
00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:28,520
Speaker 1: you joking?

885
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:33,400
Speaker 3: I'm joking about stuff. I think some socks might be

886
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:36,200
Speaker 3: stuffed in my things like that. I am missing a

887
00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 3: couple that I can't find, so I'm sure it's probably

888
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:41,640
Speaker 3: hiding under there. I have about three weeks because you

889
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:43,640
Speaker 3: know things will come back in three weeks.

890
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:44,200
Speaker 1: Right.

891
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:50,440
Speaker 3: There is all kinds of support mechanisms in countries like

892
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:53,879
Speaker 3: the United States when natural disaster happens, but you can't

893
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 3: assume those natural support those support mechanisms are going to

894
00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:00,400
Speaker 3: happen in the first couple of days. So between my

895
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:03,399
Speaker 3: wallet and what's stuff under the mattress, it's about three weeks.

896
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 3: And that's really what I recommend to people. I'm not

897
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:08,560
Speaker 3: saying keep massive amounts of cash around, don't make yourself

898
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:11,919
Speaker 3: a victim of theft, okay, But I am saying keep

899
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:16,440
Speaker 3: it going. And if we all keep it going, then

900
00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:19,719
Speaker 3: I would even probably recommend only two weeks, because if

901
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:22,600
Speaker 3: I know there's lots of ATMs around, and if I

902
00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:25,880
Speaker 3: know there's lots of other things that are able to

903
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:30,120
Speaker 3: generate cash and get cash recycled into the economy, then

904
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:31,720
Speaker 3: two weeks might be plenty.

905
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:34,440
Speaker 1: That's great advice. The book is The Power of Cash.

906
00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:37,080
Speaker 1: Jase of Gorsky, Professor Jason Gorsky, thank you so much

907
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:40,040
Speaker 1: for joining us today on the show. Where would you

908
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:43,000
Speaker 1: send our listeners to so they can find more of

909
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:46,160
Speaker 1: of your writings and your thoughts about cash in particular.

910
00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:49,600
Speaker 3: So the book is called The Power of Cash and

911
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:52,160
Speaker 3: you can go to the Power Offcash dot Com all

912
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:55,080
Speaker 3: one word, no spaces, no underlines or anything of the

913
00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:56,640
Speaker 3: Power offcash dot Com.

914
00:44:56,680 --> 00:44:59,560
Speaker 1: Wonderful. We appreciate your time. Thank you, Professor j It's been.

915
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:01,200
Speaker 3: A lot of fun. Look forward to being on the

916
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:01,680
Speaker 3: show again.

917
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:06,000
Speaker 2: Indeed, hopefully we will be talking with Professor jay Z.

918
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:08,359
Speaker 2: I like we talked to him initially at the beginning

919
00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:10,760
Speaker 2: of Real jay Z. At the beginning of the episode,

920
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:14,400
Speaker 2: I was like, do you mind if we call you professor?

921
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 2: Jay Z is like, well, that's what my students call

922
00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:17,839
Speaker 2: me as well, so I think he kind of leans

923
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:20,319
Speaker 2: into it. He's like, you're not married to Beyonce, and

924
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:22,840
Speaker 2: he was like, my wife is far more beautiful. He's like,

925
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:25,520
Speaker 2: but my actual birth certificate does say I'm there jay

926
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:28,200
Speaker 2: Z as opposed to what's jay Z's actual name, Carter?

927
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:30,480
Speaker 1: Sean Carter? I think is it Sean Kart saw something

928
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:30,719
Speaker 1: like that.

929
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:33,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, But that being said, a great little conversation we

930
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:36,520
Speaker 2: had here with jay Joel. Did you have a good,

931
00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:38,800
Speaker 2: uh maybe a practical takeaway.

932
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:39,960
Speaker 1: For folks or what was your big take away? I

933
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:41,759
Speaker 1: think when he the line that he said when he

934
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:43,960
Speaker 1: said we have lost the idea that cash is useful

935
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:48,000
Speaker 1: is spot on, like I, we've written it off and yeah,

936
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:50,279
Speaker 1: and I feel that in myself, like I have kind

937
00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:53,440
Speaker 1: of lost that idea. And honestly, you have this conversation

938
00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:55,719
Speaker 1: and makes me want to rethink some things about how

939
00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:59,400
Speaker 1: I utilize cash in my life, and in particular something

940
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:01,960
Speaker 1: like Amazon. You and I were just talking about that,

941
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:05,120
Speaker 1: Like it's not the one hundred and forty dollars a

942
00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:06,960
Speaker 1: year or one hundred and sixty. I forget what Amazon

943
00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:09,640
Speaker 1: Prime costs right now that I'd be saving by not

944
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:14,000
Speaker 1: having Amazon Prime. It's that sort of knee jerk, painless

945
00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:15,800
Speaker 1: way of buying things.

946
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:17,640
Speaker 4: The fact that the wheels are so greased.

947
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:22,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, man, it's like our fingers just automatically go to.

948
00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:24,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, click to person. I think a lot of smart

949
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:27,880
Speaker 1: people might say marketing doesn't impact me, or digital payments

950
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:29,600
Speaker 1: don't impact me, and I think for a long time

951
00:46:29,719 --> 00:46:32,560
Speaker 1: maybe I would have said that I was in that camp, like, no,

952
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:35,400
Speaker 1: I'm not spending more because I pay digitally, But the

953
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:37,799
Speaker 1: truth is I do. And if I did add extra

954
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:39,880
Speaker 1: pain points in there, like going to the bank to

955
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:41,920
Speaker 1: get the money, I would be more thoughtful about how

956
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:44,719
Speaker 1: I use that money. So I don't know, I don't

957
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:46,160
Speaker 1: hold me to it. I don't know if I'm going

958
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:48,319
Speaker 1: to cancel Amazon Prime, but like it really does maybe

959
00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:50,720
Speaker 1: want to think more and more about leaning into using cash.

960
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:52,799
Speaker 1: Maybe I'll think, you know, some small steps in that

961
00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:56,400
Speaker 1: direction and then potentially get to know even more extreme measures.

962
00:46:56,520 --> 00:46:59,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm with you, man, And this is something I've

963
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:02,399
Speaker 2: shared the past few months. But I've sort of I've

964
00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:05,080
Speaker 2: been reassessing how it is I use credit cards even

965
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:07,960
Speaker 2: and I've thought through like should I just completely simplify

966
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:10,160
Speaker 2: and only have a singular card as opposed to trying

967
00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:12,360
Speaker 2: to jump through the hoops and play the game? And

968
00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:15,719
Speaker 2: what I'm asking myself is that is this a game

969
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:18,600
Speaker 2: that I want to continue to play? And you couple

970
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:22,080
Speaker 2: that with the fact that there is likely increased spending

971
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:24,680
Speaker 2: even at the grocery store, right, like not even just

972
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:26,759
Speaker 2: like online purchasing, but even like he said, if you

973
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:29,560
Speaker 2: have a sort of a finite set amount, a hard

974
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:31,960
Speaker 2: limit of money you know that's actually in your wallet

975
00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:34,960
Speaker 2: or in your purse, I think that we are going

976
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:37,400
Speaker 2: to be more likely to spend our money wisely on

977
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:40,520
Speaker 2: things that provide nutrition as opposed to fun things even

978
00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:42,719
Speaker 2: like booze, right, like, like that's a fun thing. It's

979
00:47:42,719 --> 00:47:44,680
Speaker 2: not necessary, but we do it because yes, we have

980
00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:47,000
Speaker 2: budgeted for it. But I do think we might be

981
00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:50,520
Speaker 2: a little more judicious in our spending for sure.

982
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:53,359
Speaker 1: And we're seeing more cash discounts these days, which should

983
00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:55,520
Speaker 1: incentivize even more to think about that. So that's why.

984
00:47:55,520 --> 00:47:56,480
Speaker 1: So that's my big takeaway.

985
00:47:56,480 --> 00:47:58,480
Speaker 2: That's why I was asking him specifically, how much do

986
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:01,680
Speaker 2: you keep then on your person? Because practically speaking, I'm like, well,

987
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:03,800
Speaker 2: I've got a twenty or a couple twenties in there,

988
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:05,719
Speaker 2: but that doesn't get you very far. Like that, I

989
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:09,560
Speaker 2: mean that maybe buys my Kate and I a beer,

990
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:11,960
Speaker 2: like if we go to our local brewery with you know,

991
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:14,480
Speaker 2: with tip, that doesn't get you very far. So him

992
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:18,120
Speaker 2: recommending to keep a week's worth, and like you said,

993
00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:19,879
Speaker 2: you don't want to make your life miserable, But if

994
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:22,440
Speaker 2: this is something that you want to try out, take

995
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:25,120
Speaker 2: your monthly spend amount, divide that by four or just

996
00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:26,919
Speaker 2: I guess, take a look at the month and kind

997
00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:29,000
Speaker 2: of a lot how much money, how much cash you

998
00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:31,560
Speaker 2: should have on your person for those expenses? In particular

999
00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:34,239
Speaker 2: for us, it would be it would be groceries and

1000
00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:37,439
Speaker 2: entertainment as I think through areas of spending where there's

1001
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:41,080
Speaker 2: perhaps an elevated amount of discretionary spending that we could

1002
00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:43,160
Speaker 2: cut back on. Yeah, so I don't know that's I

1003
00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:44,880
Speaker 2: think I'm actually going to do that. I'm going to

1004
00:48:44,920 --> 00:48:46,560
Speaker 2: do that. And I was really interested in how much

1005
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:49,440
Speaker 2: money he kept at his place, some more securely in

1006
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:50,120
Speaker 2: his actual.

1007
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:53,080
Speaker 1: And then you're like, what's your address, Shay. We make

1008
00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:54,560
Speaker 1: sure full bars in the backyard too.

1009
00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:57,359
Speaker 2: He felt comfortable sharing, and I appreciate his transparency there.

1010
00:48:57,360 --> 00:48:59,200
Speaker 2: But I think that's something that Yeah, like you said,

1011
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:01,480
Speaker 2: you don't want to make yourself a target, but do

1012
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:06,080
Speaker 2: you have enough on hand to weather literal storms that

1013
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:09,799
Speaker 2: might be taking place, but actual other financial or you know,

1014
00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:13,839
Speaker 2: like foreign terrorism, other I'm not like a prepper, but

1015
00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:15,600
Speaker 2: I do think a little bit more in that direction,

1016
00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:16,239
Speaker 2: Joal than you do.

1017
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:18,240
Speaker 1: So and we don't want to lose that muscle altogether,

1018
00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:21,080
Speaker 1: like cash as a society. Yeah, and again what he

1019
00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:24,400
Speaker 1: said too about people who only have cash, like how

1020
00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:27,000
Speaker 1: they're excluded from certain plans. I mean there's a lot

1021
00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:29,560
Speaker 1: of takeaways we as a society should care about this.

1022
00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:31,319
Speaker 2: The beer that you and I enjoyed though on this

1023
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:34,200
Speaker 2: episode is called a sun kissed This was a tart

1024
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:37,560
Speaker 2: wheat ale brewed with tangerine by our friends over at

1025
00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:40,560
Speaker 2: Edmund's Oast. And we don't actually have friends over there,

1026
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:41,480
Speaker 2: but anytime we.

1027
00:49:41,719 --> 00:49:43,879
Speaker 4: Wish, we did a beer by a brewery that I like, I.

1028
00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:46,960
Speaker 2: Call them my friends because they're doing something for me.

1029
00:49:47,040 --> 00:49:49,279
Speaker 2: I'm doing something for them. Ye would you think of

1030
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:49,640
Speaker 2: this one?

1031
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:54,040
Speaker 1: So good tart tangerini? I think Edmonds Ost is one

1032
00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:56,279
Speaker 1: of those breweries like I'm only tangentially familiar with. I

1033
00:49:56,320 --> 00:49:57,799
Speaker 1: don't know if i'd call them my friends because I've

1034
00:49:57,840 --> 00:49:59,680
Speaker 1: only had a few beers, but have.

1035
00:49:59,680 --> 00:50:01,560
Speaker 2: You It's that's one of the brevies I want to

1036
00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:03,320
Speaker 2: go to because it's close enough that it sounds like

1037
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:05,319
Speaker 2: a fun trips. So it's out there in Charleston. Yeah,

1038
00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:07,720
Speaker 2: and it's one of the ones I've yet to visit,

1039
00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:08,560
Speaker 2: but I want to.

1040
00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:10,319
Speaker 1: It's one of these days I will. But this one. Yeah,

1041
00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:12,640
Speaker 1: everything I've had from them has been like rock solid

1042
00:50:12,640 --> 00:50:15,880
Speaker 1: good and this is like just a nice, like sunny

1043
00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:18,080
Speaker 1: summer ale right here. So this is like perfect time

1044
00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:18,799
Speaker 1: to be drinking this beer.

1045
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:20,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, when we first poured it, something about the way

1046
00:50:20,560 --> 00:50:23,560
Speaker 2: it smelled like it it smelled like aggressively tart, and

1047
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:24,960
Speaker 2: I don't know, it doesn't sail on here that it

1048
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:27,799
Speaker 2: was brewed with lactobisillus or whatever, but it reminds me

1049
00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:32,839
Speaker 2: of like a wild athena from creature comforts. And sometimes

1050
00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:35,040
Speaker 2: it depends I guess the kind of mooderin. It can

1051
00:50:35,080 --> 00:50:38,319
Speaker 2: come across as a stringent where it's a little ooh,

1052
00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:41,080
Speaker 2: it's almost like two mouthfucker, yeah, like like where it

1053
00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:43,799
Speaker 2: almost feels like it's breaking down the lining of your

1054
00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:44,640
Speaker 2: mouth a little bit, like.

1055
00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:46,920
Speaker 4: When you drink it. But I think it's because of

1056
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:48,399
Speaker 4: the tangerine. They balanced it out and so.

1057
00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:52,000
Speaker 2: It had enough sweetness to balance out the overall flavor profile.

1058
00:50:52,080 --> 00:50:52,880
Speaker 1: So I was.

1059
00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:54,040
Speaker 4: I was, Yeah, I enjoyed.

1060
00:50:54,040 --> 00:50:54,560
Speaker 1: It.

1061
00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:57,160
Speaker 2: Was pleasantly surprised, and maybe I shouldn't have been, because yeah,

1062
00:50:57,160 --> 00:50:58,239
Speaker 2: I really really enjoyed this one.

1063
00:50:58,320 --> 00:50:59,959
Speaker 1: No, Steph, Alright, that's gonna do it for this one.

1064
00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:03,080
Speaker 1: If you want links to Professor Jay's book and some

1065
00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:05,439
Speaker 1: of the other resources we've got to mentioned on this show,

1066
00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:07,320
Speaker 1: check out our show notes. They're up on the website

1067
00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:08,399
Speaker 1: at howtomoney dot com.

1068
00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:10,520
Speaker 4: You know a buddy, So until next time, best friends out,

1069
00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:12,080
Speaker 4: Best friends out,