WEBVTT - Is Everyone Having an Affair These Days? 0:00:01.840 --> 0:00:04.680 I thought everything I wanted and needed the hottest sect 0:00:04.720 --> 0:00:07.080 that I had ever had in my life, and I 0:00:07.120 --> 0:00:11.920 thought it was interesting to recognize that, uh so, this 0:00:12.240 --> 0:00:14.640 is how men do it. And then when I thought 0:00:14.680 --> 0:00:17.439 about it, like why are men the only ones to 0:00:17.520 --> 0:00:24.440 get to call the shops? That's Nikki. She's in her thirties, 0:00:24.600 --> 0:00:26.840 she's a mom of two, and she's been married for 0:00:26.880 --> 0:00:31.600 more than fifteen years. Nikki isn't her real name, and 0:00:31.640 --> 0:00:35.680 you'll see why she wants to use a pseudonym. What 0:00:35.720 --> 0:00:38.520 you're about to hear is Nikki telling the story about 0:00:38.600 --> 0:00:42.640 cheating on her husband for the past twelve years. So 0:00:42.800 --> 0:00:45.360 we agreed to meet up at a hotel I know 0:00:45.560 --> 0:00:50.400 the hotel, and it was like instant Bark, instant Blaine, 0:00:50.640 --> 0:00:53.040 the hottest sect that had ever had in my life, 0:00:53.640 --> 0:01:01.600 hours and hours and hours of set. I'm Joe Piazza 0:01:02.320 --> 0:01:08.240 when you're listening to she Wants More. I've spent the 0:01:08.240 --> 0:01:11.560 past five years making a podcast about marriage called Committed, 0:01:12.360 --> 0:01:14.800 and I loved talking to couples from all over the 0:01:14.840 --> 0:01:19.000 world about their relationships. These couples told me everything about 0:01:19.000 --> 0:01:23.280 their marriages, the good, the bad, the better and the worse. 0:01:23.959 --> 0:01:28.759 But lately, I've been hearing another kind of story. More 0:01:28.840 --> 0:01:31.440 and more of the women that I know have apparently 0:01:31.480 --> 0:01:34.760 been having affairs, And at first I thought it was 0:01:34.840 --> 0:01:38.640 maybe just my extended social circle, but I dug in 0:01:38.720 --> 0:01:41.360 a little bit more and discovered that the rate of 0:01:41.440 --> 0:01:45.880 infidelity among women has actually risen by about forty percent 0:01:46.400 --> 0:01:51.640 since the early and the rate of male infidelity shockingly 0:01:52.480 --> 0:01:56.640 has remained pretty much the same. So what is going on? 0:01:57.400 --> 0:02:00.880 Are women really cheating more than they used to or 0:02:01.640 --> 0:02:05.360 are they finally just talking about it more? And who 0:02:05.440 --> 0:02:09.480 are these women and why are they doing it? That 0:02:10.360 --> 0:02:18.280 is what I'm here to find out. I'm just worried 0:02:18.320 --> 0:02:20.880 a little bit about quality. It sounds because I have 0:02:21.080 --> 0:02:25.480 like the watchers going, I'm multi capting Magnelivania and like, 0:02:25.800 --> 0:02:28.120 so I want to make sure the audio wasn't sad. 0:02:28.800 --> 0:02:31.560 This is the beginning of my conversation with Nikki. I 0:02:31.600 --> 0:02:33.960 told her that her audio was fine. We can hear 0:02:34.000 --> 0:02:38.519 her perfectly well, and every woman listening to this we'll 0:02:38.600 --> 0:02:42.120 understand that she's multitasking right now. Before we get back 0:02:42.160 --> 0:02:45.600 to Nicki's affair, I wanted to go back to the beginning, 0:02:46.639 --> 0:02:50.520 back to her marriage, back to the man that she's 0:02:50.560 --> 0:02:55.160 been cheating on. So I met my husband when I 0:02:55.240 --> 0:03:00.760 was funny. I was raised to marry a certain kind 0:03:00.800 --> 0:03:03.520 of man and lives a certain kind of life. And 0:03:03.600 --> 0:03:07.919 so we have been on paper and outside looking in 0:03:08.200 --> 0:03:14.000 very happily married for fifteen years. But inside of our marriage, 0:03:14.120 --> 0:03:17.520 although we do love each other, he is just kind 0:03:17.560 --> 0:03:22.639 of a loop, not super dialed in, kind of would 0:03:22.760 --> 0:03:27.760 rather just not bring things up than mouris rocking the 0:03:27.800 --> 0:03:31.920 boat by talking about them out loud. I was really 0:03:31.960 --> 0:03:34.320 struck by how similar Nikki sounds to a lot of 0:03:34.320 --> 0:03:38.760 my friends. She's a mom like me. She has a 0:03:38.800 --> 0:03:42.160 successful job, and she has this nice life that, like 0:03:42.320 --> 0:03:47.360 she says, looks really great on paper, but underneath the surface, 0:03:47.960 --> 0:03:52.840 something wasn't right, And I had to ask her what 0:03:53.160 --> 0:03:56.440 changed in her marriage that made her choose to have 0:03:56.480 --> 0:04:01.320 an affair in the first place. You know, when communication 0:04:01.400 --> 0:04:05.720 starts to fail, sex isn't happening anymore. As you grow 0:04:05.880 --> 0:04:09.440 from early twenties and well into your thirties and late 0:04:09.520 --> 0:04:14.680 thirties and beyond, start to realize, well, this is actually 0:04:14.680 --> 0:04:18.680 what I want, or I would have thought about that. 0:04:19.200 --> 0:04:21.960 I didn't realize that this is what I needed in 0:04:22.000 --> 0:04:25.359 a way, you recognize that you're different than you thought 0:04:25.360 --> 0:04:28.320 you were, or maybe you've just grown and maybe your 0:04:28.360 --> 0:04:31.800 partner or your spouse hasn't. And it's not really their 0:04:31.839 --> 0:04:34.960 faults because you can't change who anyone is, and you 0:04:35.000 --> 0:04:38.400 can't force someone to change. At the same time, you're 0:04:38.480 --> 0:04:41.480 stuck with one of the biggest problems I think we 0:04:41.560 --> 0:04:45.200 face as adults, and that's do I live a life 0:04:45.880 --> 0:04:51.720 a stability, keeping family together, keeping routine the same, or 0:04:51.800 --> 0:04:58.279 do I find a way to feel fulfilled, happy, sexually happy, 0:04:58.680 --> 0:05:02.400 romantically happy, and all those things that we all know 0:05:02.520 --> 0:05:06.599 life is too short to go without. Then Nicki finally 0:05:06.680 --> 0:05:09.000 hit a breaking point when sex with her husband just 0:05:09.320 --> 0:05:14.320 wasn't doing it for her anymore. So I began with 0:05:14.800 --> 0:05:18.560 asking my husband for different things in bed. I wanted 0:05:18.640 --> 0:05:23.880 him to thank me, pull my hair, do different things 0:05:23.920 --> 0:05:27.719 like that, and he was, you know, agreeable, receptive. So 0:05:27.760 --> 0:05:31.600 when it came down to the sheet, I'm not even joking, 0:05:31.640 --> 0:05:37.400 he would just like give my butt like attack, and 0:05:37.480 --> 0:05:40.440 so it makes you so embarrassed because you feel like 0:05:40.480 --> 0:05:43.440 a well, I just made him feel uncomfortable or he's 0:05:43.440 --> 0:05:46.000 not comfortable doing this, or maybe he thinks something's wrong 0:05:46.040 --> 0:05:49.240 with me for wanting this. I mean, I feel like 0:05:49.520 --> 0:05:53.800 hair pulling and but banking or fairly, I don't know. 0:05:53.839 --> 0:05:57.400 Maybe it twisted vanilla, but they're not that wild. So 0:05:58.400 --> 0:06:00.000 there was no way I was going to go deep 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:02.400 for you know than that once that failed attempt, but 0:06:02.440 --> 0:06:05.599 I still talked about it. We have date nights over dinner, 0:06:05.720 --> 0:06:07.720 and I talked about the things that I wanted, and 0:06:08.279 --> 0:06:11.440 I think through all of our relationship together, you know, 0:06:12.360 --> 0:06:17.440 I would always the initiator, always more sexually driven than him, 0:06:17.440 --> 0:06:19.479 which I think is a different role to consider it 0:06:19.560 --> 0:06:23.359 in a man anyway, However, that's a true story, you know. 0:06:23.920 --> 0:06:27.400 And so once I became frustrated enough, I stopped initiating, 0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:29.839 I stopped having the conversation. I was tired of hearing 0:06:29.880 --> 0:06:32.760 myself talk and tired of getting nowhere and just going 0:06:32.760 --> 0:06:38.120 through the same missionary motions. So Nicky did what anyone 0:06:38.279 --> 0:06:40.920 thinking about having an affair would do in the digital age. 0:06:41.600 --> 0:06:46.880 She googled it, and I popped a website called Ashley Madison. 0:06:47.920 --> 0:06:51.200 It's a well known online dating and sex site for 0:06:51.440 --> 0:06:55.960 married people who are looking to have affairs. I thought, 0:06:55.960 --> 0:06:58.200 you know what, I'm just gonna get my talent and 0:06:58.279 --> 0:07:00.760 create a profile. Who cares, No is gonna know it's me, 0:07:01.600 --> 0:07:04.680 and let me just see what's out there. And so 0:07:05.000 --> 0:07:12.320 I put a sexy photo of my mouth down to 0:07:12.440 --> 0:07:15.960 my cleavage but not my face, and I filled out 0:07:16.040 --> 0:07:18.040 as many things about myself that I was willing to 0:07:18.080 --> 0:07:20.600 share that were true, and I just wrote an open 0:07:20.920 --> 0:07:24.200 paragraph or two about what exactly I wanted. And it 0:07:24.320 --> 0:07:30.240 was like a torrential downpour of potential men begging to 0:07:30.360 --> 0:07:32.360 talk to me. Oh wait, I've got and I've got 0:07:32.360 --> 0:07:37.920 to say, what did that feel like? Crazy? Because when 0:07:37.920 --> 0:07:41.640 you're with the same person for fifteen plus years, first 0:07:41.640 --> 0:07:44.480 of all, no one else has seen you naked, You've 0:07:44.520 --> 0:07:47.560 never thought about being with someone else. You don't have 0:07:47.600 --> 0:07:49.920 any self esteem of confidence when you start thinking, but 0:07:50.000 --> 0:07:53.200 maybe not any, but very little, because it's like starting 0:07:53.240 --> 0:07:56.280 from scratch again. Even though the steaks aren't super high 0:07:56.440 --> 0:07:58.840 or not shopping for a boyfriend or a husband or 0:07:58.840 --> 0:08:03.880 anything like that, but the idea of getting naked with 0:08:03.920 --> 0:08:09.240 someone new was reasonally terrifying. So created this profile. I 0:08:09.320 --> 0:08:13.240 watched hundreds of messages come in, and no one has 0:08:13.240 --> 0:08:15.040 the time to read that many messages. So I would 0:08:15.120 --> 0:08:17.480 quickly screen them either based on their photo or what 0:08:17.520 --> 0:08:20.240 their profile had said, and the ones that I did 0:08:20.400 --> 0:08:23.360 want to respond to. This is gonna sound so nerdy, 0:08:23.600 --> 0:08:27.640 hopefully in a very hot way. I kept the spreadsheets 0:08:27.680 --> 0:08:33.240 and all my spreadsheets or identifiers by their screaming and 0:08:33.400 --> 0:08:37.040 things like consistency. If they said they were going to 0:08:37.160 --> 0:08:40.000 talk about something, did they or did they message me 0:08:40.040 --> 0:08:42.079 once and then fall off the face of the earth 0:08:42.679 --> 0:08:45.720 to communication that they actually know how to talk to 0:08:45.760 --> 0:08:48.079 a woman, because it's not enough to be hot or 0:08:48.240 --> 0:08:50.880 look good naked, or even to have some kind of 0:08:50.920 --> 0:08:55.360 amazing sexual skills. And so I screamed more than a 0:08:55.400 --> 0:08:59.479 hundred men that made it to that point on the spreadsheets. 0:08:59.800 --> 0:09:05.079 The spreadsheet was like the nerdy version of a Little 0:09:05.080 --> 0:09:07.920 Black Book. I would say, this is definitely nerdy in 0:09:07.960 --> 0:09:10.000 a hot way, by the way, total nerdy in a 0:09:10.000 --> 0:09:14.520 hot way. Totally. Also, I imagine that a woman's spreadsheet 0:09:15.280 --> 0:09:20.120 is much more rational and organized than a man's spreadsheet. 0:09:20.480 --> 0:09:23.880 No offense, but I think most men at most would 0:09:23.920 --> 0:09:26.760 have had a post it note or a scrap becauld 0:09:26.760 --> 0:09:29.880 favor from a wallet. We'll be back after a short 0:09:29.920 --> 0:09:32.920 break and we'll find out what happens when Nikki finally 0:09:32.960 --> 0:09:42.840 starts meeting some of those guys on her spreadsheet, we're 0:09:42.880 --> 0:09:47.960 back with she once more. At first, Niggi got a 0:09:48.040 --> 0:09:52.720 lot of really porny messages, and she was shocked by these, 0:09:53.679 --> 0:09:55.520 as she should have been. She'd been with the same 0:09:55.559 --> 0:09:59.199 man for fifteen years. But anyone that's ever been on 0:09:59.440 --> 0:10:02.719 any of these dating websites knows that if you put 0:10:02.760 --> 0:10:06.000 yourself out there, you're going to get some pretty dirty messages. 0:10:07.960 --> 0:10:11.520 And at first she wrote those things off. But then 0:10:12.000 --> 0:10:16.360 Nicki got curious and she started exploring things on her own, 0:10:17.080 --> 0:10:19.800 and that opened her up to a whole new world 0:10:19.840 --> 0:10:24.760 of possible pleasure. Mm hmm. You would be surprised at 0:10:24.760 --> 0:10:29.040 how early in the conversation some men will introduce these questions, 0:10:29.640 --> 0:10:32.079 and so that puts you on this path of exploring 0:10:32.240 --> 0:10:34.880 how do I make this happen to myself. You started 0:10:34.880 --> 0:10:39.200 exploring different toys, like, for example, I was really afraid 0:10:39.280 --> 0:10:41.960 of like platoral suction toys because I thought it would 0:10:42.040 --> 0:10:45.800 hurt me. Now I barely go without it. So it 0:10:45.840 --> 0:10:49.520 really did open up so much that you didn't even 0:10:49.559 --> 0:10:52.440 know was out there exactly because I was so young 0:10:52.480 --> 0:10:55.439 when I met my husband. And I was raised very traditionally, 0:10:55.640 --> 0:10:59.640 very strict as the only child of my parents that 0:10:59.800 --> 0:11:03.280 just do not want anything sexual or otherwise to come 0:11:03.320 --> 0:11:06.320 into my brain. And so I lived a repressed life 0:11:06.440 --> 0:11:10.200 until you know, late thirties, and so I had this 0:11:10.240 --> 0:11:13.040 whole world out there I had no experience or knowledge of, 0:11:13.520 --> 0:11:18.000 and I was just sick of it. And once Nikki 0:11:18.080 --> 0:11:21.360 did finally feel sexually savvy and confident enough to meet 0:11:21.400 --> 0:11:24.640 some of the more appealing men on her list, she 0:11:24.720 --> 0:11:26.720 set it up so that no one would ever find 0:11:26.760 --> 0:11:30.480 out what she was doing. She created a Google voice 0:11:30.559 --> 0:11:33.560 number and a WhatsApp to make sure that none of 0:11:33.600 --> 0:11:37.320 these conversations would ever be saved on her phone. And 0:11:37.360 --> 0:11:39.880 then she just started talking to some of the men 0:11:39.920 --> 0:11:45.720 that she was tracking on her spreadsheet. After that came 0:11:45.760 --> 0:11:52.480 the next step, meeting them in real life. I down 0:11:52.520 --> 0:11:56.160 colected to the top ten, and after video chatting to 0:11:56.240 --> 0:11:59.760 verify identity, I met each of these ten men in person. 0:12:00.480 --> 0:12:03.000 For some we went and had a cocktail, someone took 0:12:03.040 --> 0:12:05.800 a walk in a park a couple of weeks for breakfast, 0:12:06.840 --> 0:12:09.080 and I picked the best of her all based on 0:12:09.080 --> 0:12:13.160 our chemistry, the quality of person I believed him to 0:12:13.200 --> 0:12:18.120 be what he had to offer the affair, and he 0:12:18.200 --> 0:12:21.600 was really respectful not only of me, but of my process. 0:12:22.600 --> 0:12:24.480 And so we agreed to meet up at a hotel 0:12:25.480 --> 0:12:30.520 and it was like instant spark, instant flame, the hottest 0:12:30.520 --> 0:12:33.560 sect I had ever had in my life, hours and 0:12:33.640 --> 0:12:39.320 hours and hours of sects, and such a masculine kind 0:12:39.360 --> 0:12:41.800 is a progressive way that I had. My whole body 0:12:41.960 --> 0:12:45.720 was craving for so long that I had nearly begged 0:12:45.720 --> 0:12:49.560 my husband. My oblivious, barely paying attention, doesn't want to 0:12:49.600 --> 0:12:54.240 talk about his husband. I begged him, and all of 0:12:54.280 --> 0:12:57.480 a sudden it was writing from me. I couldn't believe it. 0:12:57.679 --> 0:12:59.640 And I was so proud of myself in a way 0:12:59.640 --> 0:13:02.280 that I did just follow all over this man and 0:13:02.320 --> 0:13:04.120 just fall in love and have all the hard eyes 0:13:04.160 --> 0:13:06.880 and I it's very mature about it, and I thought 0:13:06.880 --> 0:13:11.360 it was interesting to recognize that, uh so, this is 0:13:11.400 --> 0:13:14.480 how men do it. I didn't feel attached to him 0:13:14.520 --> 0:13:17.400 at all. I got everything I wanted and needed, and 0:13:17.400 --> 0:13:19.760 I gave him everything I wanted to as well, and 0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:22.480 then that was it. And then when I thought about it, 0:13:22.679 --> 0:13:25.079 like why are men the only ones that get to 0:13:25.120 --> 0:13:27.760 call the shops. Why are they the ones who get 0:13:27.760 --> 0:13:32.000 to have all their sexual pleasures to build? Even if 0:13:32.000 --> 0:13:35.640 you watch porn, how many porn videos have you seen 0:13:36.360 --> 0:13:41.319 that are all about the woman climax thing? Just like 0:13:41.640 --> 0:13:44.480 the word a fair is typically associated with a man 0:13:45.200 --> 0:13:49.280 having an affair and behind closed doors, it just makes 0:13:49.320 --> 0:13:52.280 you want to laugh like it. Don't underestimate women because 0:13:52.320 --> 0:13:55.079 we are capable of getting everything we want and doing 0:13:55.120 --> 0:13:59.280 anything we can think of. NICKI knew that this was it, 0:14:00.480 --> 0:14:04.760 this was what she'd been missing, and she ended up 0:14:04.800 --> 0:14:09.840 meeting with the same man again and again. The first 0:14:09.840 --> 0:14:13.800 time I met him was September twenty nineteen. I have 0:14:14.040 --> 0:14:18.319 seen him so many times. We consider each other friends. 0:14:18.559 --> 0:14:21.840 We talk openly with each other. He's been very supportive 0:14:21.840 --> 0:14:24.960 and encouraging of me exploring and going on other dates, 0:14:25.040 --> 0:14:27.080 and so I did. I've got a lot of dates, 0:14:27.120 --> 0:14:30.560 and I've seen him specifically a lot of times, and really, 0:14:31.080 --> 0:14:34.720 after a couple of years in this experience, I'm so 0:14:34.880 --> 0:14:36.800 lucky that it was him the first time, because he 0:14:36.880 --> 0:14:41.640 was so respectful of me, so kind, but also scorching 0:14:41.720 --> 0:14:45.720 hot and my best xt ever. And is he married too? 0:14:46.600 --> 0:14:49.960 He is? And how much do you talk about your spouses, 0:14:51.840 --> 0:14:54.400 not a lot. We feel like we know. It's pretty 0:14:54.480 --> 0:14:56.760 much everything that we needed to know. And unless one 0:14:56.760 --> 0:14:58.880 of us is having an issue. I know his wife 0:14:58.920 --> 0:15:01.400 has threatened to leave him few times, and so we 0:15:01.520 --> 0:15:04.200 talked about that on his end, just as far as 0:15:04.200 --> 0:15:08.840 giving support and talking things through. And funny enough, in 0:15:08.880 --> 0:15:12.040 the beginning of this conversation we were talking about everyone 0:15:12.120 --> 0:15:14.200 comes down to the line, what are you gonna do. 0:15:14.240 --> 0:15:16.600 Are you gonna leave your kids so you can go 0:15:16.680 --> 0:15:19.080 and get whoever and be free and clear about it, 0:15:19.600 --> 0:15:21.480 or are you gonna keep your family together and find 0:15:21.520 --> 0:15:26.720 a way to be happy? And this, for you is 0:15:26.760 --> 0:15:31.240 the answer to keeping your family together, also being happy, 0:15:31.440 --> 0:15:37.920 and also feeling fulfilled. Absolutely, And for Niki that means 0:15:38.040 --> 0:15:42.840 keeping completely separate lives. She's essentially the home edit of 0:15:42.880 --> 0:15:45.280 having an affair. She can put her family in one 0:15:45.320 --> 0:15:48.680 bucket and her affair and another, and she organizes her 0:15:48.920 --> 0:15:53.520 entire lifestyle so that the two things never cross streams. 0:15:55.440 --> 0:15:58.360 We don't involve anything from our personal life with our 0:15:58.400 --> 0:16:01.000 affair lives. We are not in position to run into 0:16:01.080 --> 0:16:03.760 each other. We don't have mutual friends, we don't work 0:16:03.760 --> 0:16:07.160 in the same industry, we're not going to casually see 0:16:07.160 --> 0:16:09.840 each other on the sidewalk in an awkward way. We 0:16:10.400 --> 0:16:13.440 quite literally have a completely separate life that no one 0:16:13.480 --> 0:16:15.640 knows about. I don't know if you're a fan of 0:16:15.720 --> 0:16:19.280 Nagan the Stallion, but in one of her songs, who says, 0:16:20.040 --> 0:16:23.280 it's okay because I have another that'll do it if 0:16:23.280 --> 0:16:27.600 you won't, And it brings me back to the conversation 0:16:27.880 --> 0:16:30.400 with my husband of asking him to thank me and 0:16:30.440 --> 0:16:32.760 pull my hair and talk to alreat eating me, and 0:16:32.800 --> 0:16:36.280 all of these things. And this wasn't onto the next 0:16:36.720 --> 0:16:41.200 because once you start growing your sexual exploration and adventuring 0:16:41.280 --> 0:16:45.840 and experiencing getting what you want, it's uncharted territory. But 0:16:45.920 --> 0:16:50.160 there's also really endless possibility. So until you've come to 0:16:51.080 --> 0:16:53.800 a point of wanting to slow down or settle down 0:16:54.080 --> 0:16:59.840 or so a different way, it's just like a tank 0:17:00.000 --> 0:17:03.480 of gas that's fool and getting the keys to the 0:17:03.520 --> 0:17:05.960 car handed to you every time you want to take 0:17:06.000 --> 0:17:09.639 a ride. Do you think having the affairs makes you 0:17:09.720 --> 0:17:14.120 a better wife and partner. I don't know about that, 0:17:14.200 --> 0:17:16.399 but I will say that it makes me less resentful, 0:17:17.119 --> 0:17:20.560 less spiteful. I don't have a lot of contention built 0:17:20.640 --> 0:17:24.080 up in my chest, or stress or anxiety or any 0:17:24.119 --> 0:17:27.760 kind of that negative cloud that kind of grows within 0:17:27.840 --> 0:17:30.760 you when you go without for so long and you 0:17:30.840 --> 0:17:33.840 start looking at this person like, why can't you understand? 0:17:34.000 --> 0:17:36.640 Why can't you give me these things? And why are 0:17:36.680 --> 0:17:39.119 we stuck in this marriage? When I deserve to be happy. 0:17:39.160 --> 0:17:41.960 I deserved it, feel good and all of these things. 0:17:41.960 --> 0:17:47.880 So having that room to breathe, it just makes you 0:17:48.040 --> 0:17:51.320 less bitchy, for lack of a better words, There's less 0:17:51.359 --> 0:17:53.639 resentment because I know that if I want to do 0:17:53.680 --> 0:17:56.080 anything else, I'm going to do it. I'm more confident, 0:17:56.720 --> 0:17:59.840 I am more self aware, I have better self esteem. 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:02.000 And it also bleeds over into a lot of other 0:18:02.080 --> 0:18:07.000 areas such as a friendship, professionalism, my role at work. 0:18:07.280 --> 0:18:09.960 Everything I do is different now because I'm different now. 0:18:10.160 --> 0:18:12.280 How so how does it How does it plead over 0:18:12.320 --> 0:18:15.399 into your professionalism and work? And how do you feel different? 0:18:16.280 --> 0:18:18.639 When I walk into a room and I'm going to 0:18:19.119 --> 0:18:22.400 give a meeting or maybe I'm speaking in public, I'm 0:18:22.440 --> 0:18:25.320 not worried about what somebody thinks about what I'm wearing 0:18:25.440 --> 0:18:29.200 or how I look, or if I am so stressed 0:18:29.240 --> 0:18:32.720 out from being so sexually unfulfilled. That is showing on 0:18:32.800 --> 0:18:35.959 my face, and I'm wondering if people are looking at 0:18:36.000 --> 0:18:39.639 me asking themselves. I wonder how often she gets it. 0:18:40.280 --> 0:18:41.920 You know, all the things that go through people's minds 0:18:41.920 --> 0:18:44.640 that you really shouldn't concern yourself with, But when you're 0:18:44.680 --> 0:18:48.400 so unhappy and so stressed over it, all of these 0:18:48.440 --> 0:18:51.320 things just start to bring it down. But when you 0:18:51.400 --> 0:18:55.879 become sexually fulfilled, you become more confident in your body 0:18:55.920 --> 0:18:58.440 and how you feel naked, and how you make other 0:18:58.440 --> 0:19:01.920 people feel and how they feel about you. Knowing that 0:19:02.160 --> 0:19:04.800 you have the keys to the kingdom and you can 0:19:04.800 --> 0:19:08.159 control it however you want. That's a big sense of power. 0:19:08.800 --> 0:19:10.960 It could be a total ego trip if you let it. 0:19:11.960 --> 0:19:14.400 So when I walk into a room, I'm not nervous anymore. 0:19:15.000 --> 0:19:17.240 I know so much more about how men and women 0:19:17.359 --> 0:19:21.520 think sexually than I ever could have imagined without this experience. 0:19:22.560 --> 0:19:28.399 So I feel less stressed, less worried, I feel more powerful, 0:19:28.480 --> 0:19:31.480 I feel more confident, I feel more in my real self, 0:19:31.840 --> 0:19:35.359 and I'm just not afraid anymore. What do you feel 0:19:35.359 --> 0:19:39.440 comfortable telling me about one of your wildest, greatest, most 0:19:39.480 --> 0:19:47.439 fulfilling experiences. I think the wildest I was getting overwhelmed 0:19:47.720 --> 0:19:51.000 with so many messages from so many men, and because 0:19:51.119 --> 0:19:55.600 I always practice say sex and wasn't really in a 0:19:55.640 --> 0:19:59.920 position to drive a group sex or gang bang scenario, 0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:03.800 if you will. There was a day where I saw 0:20:03.840 --> 0:20:06.280 four different men in the same day and I expect them, 0:20:06.320 --> 0:20:13.159 all four of them, and it was amazing. Wow, I 0:20:13.240 --> 0:20:16.320 was not expecting that answer. So four different men were 0:20:16.320 --> 0:20:21.399 they were all of the experiences different totally in moment 0:20:21.520 --> 0:20:24.600 one of them, I where it was like maybe twenty 0:20:24.600 --> 0:20:26.600 minutes in and out and I was like, I see 0:20:26.640 --> 0:20:29.000 you later, have great rest of your weeks. Like I 0:20:29.040 --> 0:20:32.040 did not care. I didn't need to be held or 0:20:32.080 --> 0:20:34.679 cuddled or kissed. I didn't need any of it. I 0:20:34.720 --> 0:20:37.040 was able to then to shower, to take a meeting, 0:20:37.880 --> 0:20:41.480 come back, have a dinner date, asked on again. It 0:20:41.560 --> 0:20:44.800 was amazing. It was so cool because I got to 0:20:44.840 --> 0:20:47.320 really be in the driver's seat, get exactly what I wanted, 0:20:47.359 --> 0:20:50.800 and I just happened to feel sectually greedy that day. 0:20:50.960 --> 0:20:55.199 And it's like, then such a power trip to be 0:20:55.280 --> 0:21:01.400 able to command the sexual presence of people you desire 0:21:01.600 --> 0:21:04.959 and have them to fill whatever it is you need crazy. 0:21:05.480 --> 0:21:08.760 We'll be back with more from Nikki. After a short break, 0:21:16.080 --> 0:21:21.119 we're back what she wants more. The trajectory for women 0:21:21.760 --> 0:21:25.800 has been until the late twentieth century that we would 0:21:25.800 --> 0:21:32.719 be good daughters, good wives, good mothers, good grandmothers if 0:21:32.760 --> 0:21:35.760 we were lucky, and that was the arc. And what 0:21:35.920 --> 0:21:41.640 contemporary women are saying is that with more choices, they 0:21:41.760 --> 0:21:46.280 end up having the ability to finesse an affair and 0:21:46.320 --> 0:21:49.879 the drive to finesse an affair if they so choose. 0:21:50.600 --> 0:21:54.040 That's Susan Shapiro Bearish, her book, A Passion for More, 0:21:54.119 --> 0:21:58.480 inspired this podcast, and she's been researching women and affairs 0:21:58.560 --> 0:22:03.000 for more than thirty years. How do you think affairs 0:22:03.000 --> 0:22:06.120 have changed since she started doing this in ninety years ago. 0:22:06.520 --> 0:22:12.040 Are you seeing more affairs, less affairs, women being more 0:22:12.080 --> 0:22:14.600 comfortable talking about them. What are the big changes that 0:22:14.640 --> 0:22:17.320 you've seen. First of all, I do think there are 0:22:17.400 --> 0:22:21.359 more and more affairs. I think that women have more agency. 0:22:22.119 --> 0:22:25.480 I think that women are more self aware with every decade, 0:22:25.920 --> 0:22:28.919 so they're really saying, well, what am I not getting 0:22:28.920 --> 0:22:33.280 in this relationship? And how lucky I am to have 0:22:33.320 --> 0:22:37.159 found this lover who can provide when I'm missing so 0:22:37.240 --> 0:22:41.000 women are feeling more like they deserve to have an affair, 0:22:41.840 --> 0:22:44.240 And of course I don't want anyone judged. You know, 0:22:44.320 --> 0:22:47.320 this is just in the pie of life, and women 0:22:47.359 --> 0:22:53.160 who have affairs, they're saying I want more. In fact, 0:22:53.200 --> 0:22:58.000 I have a passion for more. Before talking to Susan 0:22:58.000 --> 0:22:59.959 and Nikki, I'm not sure if I thought of an 0:23:00.000 --> 0:23:04.520 affair as just another choice, But the more I think 0:23:04.560 --> 0:23:08.199 about it, it just makes sense. As women throughout the 0:23:08.200 --> 0:23:12.240 course of history, haven't we always gotten the short end 0:23:12.280 --> 0:23:17.000 of the stick? Haven't we historically, and frankly even right now, 0:23:17.640 --> 0:23:20.760 lacked the autonomy to make decisions about our own lives 0:23:21.000 --> 0:23:24.919 and our own bodies. So is an affair just a choice? 0:23:25.600 --> 0:23:28.160 A choice to feel happier, a choice to feel good, 0:23:28.880 --> 0:23:33.760 the choice for more. But an affair doesn't happen in 0:23:33.800 --> 0:23:37.880 a vacuum. It can always go further. And what happens 0:23:37.920 --> 0:23:45.600 when that affair isn't just sex. It's a relationship that's complicated. 0:23:47.080 --> 0:23:51.680 I decided to ask Nikki, you seem really good at 0:23:51.760 --> 0:23:55.320 not getting emotionally attached, But has there been a time 0:23:55.359 --> 0:23:57.679 when one of these relationships started to cross a line? 0:23:58.240 --> 0:24:00.280 I think the way you know you cross the line. 0:24:00.440 --> 0:24:03.040 It's like any other relationship. If you just start thinking 0:24:03.080 --> 0:24:06.440 about that person constantly, you can't stand it. When you're 0:24:06.440 --> 0:24:09.000 not talking or texting all you wanted to be with 0:24:09.040 --> 0:24:15.080 that person, you've gone too far. And it definitely organically 0:24:15.119 --> 0:24:19.560 happened with a man in New York, and honestly, I 0:24:19.640 --> 0:24:22.200 don't know if it would have stopped or how it 0:24:22.240 --> 0:24:25.960 would have stopped, but he got caught and it stopped abruptly, 0:24:26.840 --> 0:24:29.919 and because I had feelings for him, it just was 0:24:30.040 --> 0:24:34.840 so painful. And being in the long term relationship in 0:24:34.880 --> 0:24:38.840 a marriage so young, that's something I hadn't really experienced before, 0:24:38.880 --> 0:24:42.600 like grown up version of heartbreak. And it stopped, and 0:24:42.640 --> 0:24:45.680 I so so shitty. And you know what else, It's 0:24:45.760 --> 0:24:48.840 like the old saying, if you want to get over 0:24:49.000 --> 0:24:51.119 one man, you have to get under another. And it 0:24:51.240 --> 0:24:53.600 was so true. And I went right back to Ashley 0:24:53.680 --> 0:24:57.520 Madison and got back on the horse. Nikki got right 0:24:57.560 --> 0:25:00.320 back on the horse. She just wanted to have X, 0:25:00.840 --> 0:25:04.080 but with the next guy she ended up getting way 0:25:04.400 --> 0:25:10.360 more than she bargained for. And then last year, literally 0:25:10.440 --> 0:25:15.360 was planning an appointment for a Wednesday afternoon, and this 0:25:15.440 --> 0:25:17.800 was a Friday, and I said, I can't talk on 0:25:17.840 --> 0:25:20.600 the weekend, but if you can video tell with me 0:25:20.640 --> 0:25:24.080 on Monday, I can confirm my availability for Wednesday afternoon. 0:25:24.640 --> 0:25:27.360 Quite business like, I got on what's up? I got 0:25:27.400 --> 0:25:30.440 in this video call and the man staring back at me, 0:25:31.440 --> 0:25:34.760