1 00:00:01,840 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: I thought everything I wanted and needed the hottest sect 2 00:00:04,720 --> 00:00:07,080 Speaker 1: that I had ever had in my life, and I 3 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 1: thought it was interesting to recognize that, uh so, this 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 1: is how men do it. And then when I thought 5 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:17,439 Speaker 1: about it, like why are men the only ones to 6 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:24,440 Speaker 1: get to call the shops? That's Nikki. She's in her thirties, 7 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:26,840 Speaker 1: she's a mom of two, and she's been married for 8 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:31,600 Speaker 1: more than fifteen years. Nikki isn't her real name, and 9 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:35,680 Speaker 1: you'll see why she wants to use a pseudonym. What 10 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:38,520 Speaker 1: you're about to hear is Nikki telling the story about 11 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:42,640 Speaker 1: cheating on her husband for the past twelve years. So 12 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 1: we agreed to meet up at a hotel I know 13 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 1: the hotel, and it was like instant Bark, instant Blaine, 14 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:53,040 Speaker 1: the hottest sect that had ever had in my life, 15 00:00:53,640 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 1: hours and hours and hours of set. I'm Joe Piazza 16 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 1: when you're listening to she Wants More. I've spent the 17 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 1: past five years making a podcast about marriage called Committed, 18 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:14,800 Speaker 1: and I loved talking to couples from all over the 19 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 1: world about their relationships. These couples told me everything about 20 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:23,280 Speaker 1: their marriages, the good, the bad, the better and the worse. 21 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:28,759 Speaker 1: But lately, I've been hearing another kind of story. More 22 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 1: and more of the women that I know have apparently 23 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:34,760 Speaker 1: been having affairs, And at first I thought it was 24 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 1: maybe just my extended social circle, but I dug in 25 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 1: a little bit more and discovered that the rate of 26 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 1: infidelity among women has actually risen by about forty percent 27 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:51,640 Speaker 1: since the early and the rate of male infidelity shockingly 28 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:56,640 Speaker 1: has remained pretty much the same. So what is going on? 29 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 1: Are women really cheating more than they used to or 30 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:05,360 Speaker 1: are they finally just talking about it more? And who 31 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 1: are these women and why are they doing it? That 32 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 1: is what I'm here to find out. I'm just worried 33 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:20,880 Speaker 1: a little bit about quality. It sounds because I have 34 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 1: like the watchers going, I'm multi capting Magnelivania and like, 35 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:28,120 Speaker 1: so I want to make sure the audio wasn't sad. 36 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 1: This is the beginning of my conversation with Nikki. I 37 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:33,960 Speaker 1: told her that her audio was fine. We can hear 38 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:38,519 Speaker 1: her perfectly well, and every woman listening to this we'll 39 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:42,120 Speaker 1: understand that she's multitasking right now. Before we get back 40 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 1: to Nicki's affair, I wanted to go back to the beginning, 41 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:50,520 Speaker 1: back to her marriage, back to the man that she's 42 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 1: been cheating on. So I met my husband when I 43 00:02:55,240 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 1: was funny. I was raised to marry a certain kind 44 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 1: of man and lives a certain kind of life. And 45 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:07,919 Speaker 1: so we have been on paper and outside looking in 46 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 1: very happily married for fifteen years. But inside of our marriage, 47 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:17,520 Speaker 1: although we do love each other, he is just kind 48 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:22,639 Speaker 1: of a loop, not super dialed in, kind of would 49 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 1: rather just not bring things up than mouris rocking the 50 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:31,920 Speaker 1: boat by talking about them out loud. I was really 51 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 1: struck by how similar Nikki sounds to a lot of 52 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 1: my friends. She's a mom like me. She has a 53 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 1: successful job, and she has this nice life that, like 54 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:47,360 Speaker 1: she says, looks really great on paper, but underneath the surface, 55 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 1: something wasn't right, And I had to ask her what 56 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:56,440 Speaker 1: changed in her marriage that made her choose to have 57 00:03:56,480 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 1: an affair in the first place. You know, when communication 58 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 1: starts to fail, sex isn't happening anymore. As you grow 59 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 1: from early twenties and well into your thirties and late 60 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 1: thirties and beyond, start to realize, well, this is actually 61 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 1: what I want, or I would have thought about that. 62 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 1: I didn't realize that this is what I needed in 63 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:25,359 Speaker 1: a way, you recognize that you're different than you thought 64 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 1: you were, or maybe you've just grown and maybe your 65 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 1: partner or your spouse hasn't. And it's not really their 66 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 1: faults because you can't change who anyone is, and you 67 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 1: can't force someone to change. At the same time, you're 68 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:41,480 Speaker 1: stuck with one of the biggest problems I think we 69 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 1: face as adults, and that's do I live a life 70 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:51,720 Speaker 1: a stability, keeping family together, keeping routine the same, or 71 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:58,279 Speaker 1: do I find a way to feel fulfilled, happy, sexually happy, 72 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 1: romantically happy, and all those things that we all know 73 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:06,599 Speaker 1: life is too short to go without. Then Nicki finally 74 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 1: hit a breaking point when sex with her husband just 75 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 1: wasn't doing it for her anymore. So I began with 76 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 1: asking my husband for different things in bed. I wanted 77 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 1: him to thank me, pull my hair, do different things 78 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:27,719 Speaker 1: like that, and he was, you know, agreeable, receptive. So 79 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:31,600 Speaker 1: when it came down to the sheet, I'm not even joking, 80 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 1: he would just like give my butt like attack, and 81 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 1: so it makes you so embarrassed because you feel like 82 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 1: a well, I just made him feel uncomfortable or he's 83 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 1: not comfortable doing this, or maybe he thinks something's wrong 84 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 1: with me for wanting this. I mean, I feel like 85 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 1: hair pulling and but banking or fairly, I don't know. 86 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 1: Maybe it twisted vanilla, but they're not that wild. So 87 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 1: there was no way I was going to go deep 88 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 1: for you know than that once that failed attempt, but 89 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:05,599 Speaker 1: I still talked about it. We have date nights over dinner, 90 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:07,720 Speaker 1: and I talked about the things that I wanted, and 91 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 1: I think through all of our relationship together, you know, 92 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 1: I would always the initiator, always more sexually driven than him, 93 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:19,479 Speaker 1: which I think is a different role to consider it 94 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:23,359 Speaker 1: in a man anyway, However, that's a true story, you know. 95 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 1: And so once I became frustrated enough, I stopped initiating, 96 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:29,839 Speaker 1: I stopped having the conversation. I was tired of hearing 97 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 1: myself talk and tired of getting nowhere and just going 98 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 1: through the same missionary motions. So Nicky did what anyone 99 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:40,920 Speaker 1: thinking about having an affair would do in the digital age. 100 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 1: She googled it, and I popped a website called Ashley Madison. 101 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 1: It's a well known online dating and sex site for 102 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 1: married people who are looking to have affairs. I thought, 103 00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 1: you know what, I'm just gonna get my talent and 104 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 1: create a profile. Who cares, No is gonna know it's me, 105 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 1: and let me just see what's out there. And so 106 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 1: I put a sexy photo of my mouth down to 107 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:15,960 Speaker 1: my cleavage but not my face, and I filled out 108 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 1: as many things about myself that I was willing to 109 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 1: share that were true, and I just wrote an open 110 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 1: paragraph or two about what exactly I wanted. And it 111 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 1: was like a torrential downpour of potential men begging to 112 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:32,360 Speaker 1: talk to me. Oh wait, I've got and I've got 113 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:37,920 Speaker 1: to say, what did that feel like? Crazy? Because when 114 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 1: you're with the same person for fifteen plus years, first 115 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 1: of all, no one else has seen you naked, You've 116 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 1: never thought about being with someone else. You don't have 117 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 1: any self esteem of confidence when you start thinking, but 118 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 1: maybe not any, but very little, because it's like starting 119 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 1: from scratch again. Even though the steaks aren't super high 120 00:07:56,440 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 1: or not shopping for a boyfriend or a husband or 121 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 1: anything like that, but the idea of getting naked with 122 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 1: someone new was reasonally terrifying. So created this profile. I 123 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:13,240 Speaker 1: watched hundreds of messages come in, and no one has 124 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 1: the time to read that many messages. So I would 125 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 1: quickly screen them either based on their photo or what 126 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 1: their profile had said, and the ones that I did 127 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 1: want to respond to. This is gonna sound so nerdy, 128 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 1: hopefully in a very hot way. I kept the spreadsheets 129 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 1: and all my spreadsheets or identifiers by their screaming and 130 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 1: things like consistency. If they said they were going to 131 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 1: talk about something, did they or did they message me 132 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:42,079 Speaker 1: once and then fall off the face of the earth 133 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:45,720 Speaker 1: to communication that they actually know how to talk to 134 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:48,079 Speaker 1: a woman, because it's not enough to be hot or 135 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 1: look good naked, or even to have some kind of 136 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:55,360 Speaker 1: amazing sexual skills. And so I screamed more than a 137 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:59,479 Speaker 1: hundred men that made it to that point on the spreadsheets. 138 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:05,079 Speaker 1: The spreadsheet was like the nerdy version of a Little 139 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 1: Black Book. I would say, this is definitely nerdy in 140 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 1: a hot way, by the way, total nerdy in a 141 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 1: hot way. Totally. Also, I imagine that a woman's spreadsheet 142 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 1: is much more rational and organized than a man's spreadsheet. 143 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 1: No offense, but I think most men at most would 144 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 1: have had a post it note or a scrap becauld 145 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 1: favor from a wallet. We'll be back after a short 146 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 1: break and we'll find out what happens when Nikki finally 147 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:42,840 Speaker 1: starts meeting some of those guys on her spreadsheet, we're 148 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:47,960 Speaker 1: back with she once more. At first, Niggi got a 149 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:52,720 Speaker 1: lot of really porny messages, and she was shocked by these, 150 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 1: as she should have been. She'd been with the same 151 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:59,199 Speaker 1: man for fifteen years. But anyone that's ever been on 152 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:02,719 Speaker 1: any of these dating websites knows that if you put 153 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 1: yourself out there, you're going to get some pretty dirty messages. 154 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 1: And at first she wrote those things off. But then 155 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 1: Nicki got curious and she started exploring things on her own, 156 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 1: and that opened her up to a whole new world 157 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 1: of possible pleasure. Mm hmm. You would be surprised at 158 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 1: how early in the conversation some men will introduce these questions, 159 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:32,079 Speaker 1: and so that puts you on this path of exploring 160 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 1: how do I make this happen to myself. You started 161 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:39,200 Speaker 1: exploring different toys, like, for example, I was really afraid 162 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:41,960 Speaker 1: of like platoral suction toys because I thought it would 163 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:45,800 Speaker 1: hurt me. Now I barely go without it. So it 164 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 1: really did open up so much that you didn't even 165 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:52,440 Speaker 1: know was out there exactly because I was so young 166 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:55,439 Speaker 1: when I met my husband. And I was raised very traditionally, 167 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 1: very strict as the only child of my parents that 168 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:03,280 Speaker 1: just do not want anything sexual or otherwise to come 169 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:06,320 Speaker 1: into my brain. And so I lived a repressed life 170 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:10,200 Speaker 1: until you know, late thirties, and so I had this 171 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 1: whole world out there I had no experience or knowledge of, 172 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 1: and I was just sick of it. And once Nikki 173 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 1: did finally feel sexually savvy and confident enough to meet 174 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 1: some of the more appealing men on her list, she 175 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:26,720 Speaker 1: set it up so that no one would ever find 176 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 1: out what she was doing. She created a Google voice 177 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:33,560 Speaker 1: number and a WhatsApp to make sure that none of 178 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:37,320 Speaker 1: these conversations would ever be saved on her phone. And 179 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:39,880 Speaker 1: then she just started talking to some of the men 180 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 1: that she was tracking on her spreadsheet. After that came 181 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:52,480 Speaker 1: the next step, meeting them in real life. I down 182 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 1: colected to the top ten, and after video chatting to 183 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 1: verify identity, I met each of these ten men in person. 184 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 1: For some we went and had a cocktail, someone took 185 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 1: a walk in a park a couple of weeks for breakfast, 186 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:09,080 Speaker 1: and I picked the best of her all based on 187 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 1: our chemistry, the quality of person I believed him to 188 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:18,120 Speaker 1: be what he had to offer the affair, and he 189 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 1: was really respectful not only of me, but of my process. 190 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 1: And so we agreed to meet up at a hotel 191 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 1: and it was like instant spark, instant flame, the hottest 192 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:33,560 Speaker 1: sect I had ever had in my life, hours and 193 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:39,320 Speaker 1: hours and hours of sects, and such a masculine kind 194 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 1: is a progressive way that I had. My whole body 195 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:45,720 Speaker 1: was craving for so long that I had nearly begged 196 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:49,560 Speaker 1: my husband. My oblivious, barely paying attention, doesn't want to 197 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 1: talk about his husband. I begged him, and all of 198 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 1: a sudden it was writing from me. I couldn't believe it. 199 00:12:57,679 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 1: And I was so proud of myself in a way 200 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 1: that I did just follow all over this man and 201 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 1: just fall in love and have all the hard eyes 202 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 1: and I it's very mature about it, and I thought 203 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:11,360 Speaker 1: it was interesting to recognize that, uh so, this is 204 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 1: how men do it. I didn't feel attached to him 205 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:17,400 Speaker 1: at all. I got everything I wanted and needed, and 206 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 1: I gave him everything I wanted to as well, and 207 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 1: then that was it. And then when I thought about it, 208 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:25,079 Speaker 1: like why are men the only ones that get to 209 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 1: call the shops. Why are they the ones who get 210 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 1: to have all their sexual pleasures to build? Even if 211 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 1: you watch porn, how many porn videos have you seen 212 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:41,319 Speaker 1: that are all about the woman climax thing? Just like 213 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 1: the word a fair is typically associated with a man 214 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 1: having an affair and behind closed doors, it just makes 215 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 1: you want to laugh like it. Don't underestimate women because 216 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:55,079 Speaker 1: we are capable of getting everything we want and doing 217 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 1: anything we can think of. NICKI knew that this was it, 218 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 1: this was what she'd been missing, and she ended up 219 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:09,840 Speaker 1: meeting with the same man again and again. The first 220 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 1: time I met him was September twenty nineteen. I have 221 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:18,319 Speaker 1: seen him so many times. We consider each other friends. 222 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 1: We talk openly with each other. He's been very supportive 223 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 1: and encouraging of me exploring and going on other dates, 224 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 1: and so I did. I've got a lot of dates, 225 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 1: and I've seen him specifically a lot of times, and really, 226 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:34,720 Speaker 1: after a couple of years in this experience, I'm so 227 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 1: lucky that it was him the first time, because he 228 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 1: was so respectful of me, so kind, but also scorching 229 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 1: hot and my best xt ever. And is he married too? 230 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 1: He is? And how much do you talk about your spouses, 231 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 1: not a lot. We feel like we know. It's pretty 232 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 1: much everything that we needed to know. And unless one 233 00:14:56,760 --> 00:14:58,880 Speaker 1: of us is having an issue. I know his wife 234 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 1: has threatened to leave him few times, and so we 235 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 1: talked about that on his end, just as far as 236 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 1: giving support and talking things through. And funny enough, in 237 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 1: the beginning of this conversation we were talking about everyone 238 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 1: comes down to the line, what are you gonna do. 239 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 1: Are you gonna leave your kids so you can go 240 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:19,080 Speaker 1: and get whoever and be free and clear about it, 241 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 1: or are you gonna keep your family together and find 242 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 1: a way to be happy? And this, for you is 243 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 1: the answer to keeping your family together, also being happy, 244 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:37,920 Speaker 1: and also feeling fulfilled. Absolutely, And for Niki that means 245 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 1: keeping completely separate lives. She's essentially the home edit of 246 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 1: having an affair. She can put her family in one 247 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 1: bucket and her affair and another, and she organizes her 248 00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 1: entire lifestyle so that the two things never cross streams. 249 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:58,360 Speaker 1: We don't involve anything from our personal life with our 250 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 1: affair lives. We are not in position to run into 251 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 1: each other. We don't have mutual friends, we don't work 252 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 1: in the same industry, we're not going to casually see 253 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 1: each other on the sidewalk in an awkward way. We 254 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:13,440 Speaker 1: quite literally have a completely separate life that no one 255 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 1: knows about. I don't know if you're a fan of 256 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 1: Nagan the Stallion, but in one of her songs, who says, 257 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 1: it's okay because I have another that'll do it if 258 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 1: you won't, And it brings me back to the conversation 259 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:30,400 Speaker 1: with my husband of asking him to thank me and 260 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 1: pull my hair and talk to alreat eating me, and 261 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 1: all of these things. And this wasn't onto the next 262 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 1: because once you start growing your sexual exploration and adventuring 263 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 1: and experiencing getting what you want, it's uncharted territory. But 264 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:50,160 Speaker 1: there's also really endless possibility. So until you've come to 265 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:53,800 Speaker 1: a point of wanting to slow down or settle down 266 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 1: or so a different way, it's just like a tank 267 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 1: of gas that's fool and getting the keys to the 268 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 1: car handed to you every time you want to take 269 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:09,639 Speaker 1: a ride. Do you think having the affairs makes you 270 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:14,120 Speaker 1: a better wife and partner. I don't know about that, 271 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:16,399 Speaker 1: but I will say that it makes me less resentful, 272 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 1: less spiteful. I don't have a lot of contention built 273 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:24,080 Speaker 1: up in my chest, or stress or anxiety or any 274 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:27,760 Speaker 1: kind of that negative cloud that kind of grows within 275 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:30,760 Speaker 1: you when you go without for so long and you 276 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:33,840 Speaker 1: start looking at this person like, why can't you understand? 277 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:36,640 Speaker 1: Why can't you give me these things? And why are 278 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:39,119 Speaker 1: we stuck in this marriage? When I deserve to be happy. 279 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:41,960 Speaker 1: I deserved it, feel good and all of these things. 280 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:47,880 Speaker 1: So having that room to breathe, it just makes you 281 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:51,320 Speaker 1: less bitchy, for lack of a better words, There's less 282 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:53,639 Speaker 1: resentment because I know that if I want to do 283 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 1: anything else, I'm going to do it. I'm more confident, 284 00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 1: I am more self aware, I have better self esteem. 285 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 1: And it also bleeds over into a lot of other 286 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 1: areas such as a friendship, professionalism, my role at work. 287 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:09,960 Speaker 1: Everything I do is different now because I'm different now. 288 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 1: How so how does it How does it plead over 289 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:15,399 Speaker 1: into your professionalism and work? And how do you feel different? 290 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:18,639 Speaker 1: When I walk into a room and I'm going to 291 00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:22,400 Speaker 1: give a meeting or maybe I'm speaking in public, I'm 292 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 1: not worried about what somebody thinks about what I'm wearing 293 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:29,200 Speaker 1: or how I look, or if I am so stressed 294 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 1: out from being so sexually unfulfilled. That is showing on 295 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:35,959 Speaker 1: my face, and I'm wondering if people are looking at 296 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:39,639 Speaker 1: me asking themselves. I wonder how often she gets it. 297 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:41,920 Speaker 1: You know, all the things that go through people's minds 298 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:44,640 Speaker 1: that you really shouldn't concern yourself with, But when you're 299 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:48,400 Speaker 1: so unhappy and so stressed over it, all of these 300 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:51,320 Speaker 1: things just start to bring it down. But when you 301 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:55,879 Speaker 1: become sexually fulfilled, you become more confident in your body 302 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:58,440 Speaker 1: and how you feel naked, and how you make other 303 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:01,920 Speaker 1: people feel and how they feel about you. Knowing that 304 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:04,800 Speaker 1: you have the keys to the kingdom and you can 305 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:08,159 Speaker 1: control it however you want. That's a big sense of power. 306 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:10,960 Speaker 1: It could be a total ego trip if you let it. 307 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:14,400 Speaker 1: So when I walk into a room, I'm not nervous anymore. 308 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:17,240 Speaker 1: I know so much more about how men and women 309 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 1: think sexually than I ever could have imagined without this experience. 310 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:28,399 Speaker 1: So I feel less stressed, less worried, I feel more powerful, 311 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:31,480 Speaker 1: I feel more confident, I feel more in my real self, 312 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:35,359 Speaker 1: and I'm just not afraid anymore. What do you feel 313 00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:39,440 Speaker 1: comfortable telling me about one of your wildest, greatest, most 314 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:47,439 Speaker 1: fulfilling experiences. I think the wildest I was getting overwhelmed 315 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:51,000 Speaker 1: with so many messages from so many men, and because 316 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 1: I always practice say sex and wasn't really in a 317 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:59,920 Speaker 1: position to drive a group sex or gang bang scenario, 318 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 1: if you will. There was a day where I saw 319 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 1: four different men in the same day and I expect them, 320 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:13,159 Speaker 1: all four of them, and it was amazing. Wow, I 321 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 1: was not expecting that answer. So four different men were 322 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:21,399 Speaker 1: they were all of the experiences different totally in moment 323 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:24,600 Speaker 1: one of them, I where it was like maybe twenty 324 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:26,600 Speaker 1: minutes in and out and I was like, I see 325 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 1: you later, have great rest of your weeks. Like I 326 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:32,040 Speaker 1: did not care. I didn't need to be held or 327 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:34,679 Speaker 1: cuddled or kissed. I didn't need any of it. I 328 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:37,040 Speaker 1: was able to then to shower, to take a meeting, 329 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:41,480 Speaker 1: come back, have a dinner date, asked on again. It 330 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 1: was amazing. It was so cool because I got to 331 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 1: really be in the driver's seat, get exactly what I wanted, 332 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:50,800 Speaker 1: and I just happened to feel sectually greedy that day. 333 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:55,199 Speaker 1: And it's like, then such a power trip to be 334 00:20:55,280 --> 00:21:01,400 Speaker 1: able to command the sexual presence of people you desire 335 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,959 Speaker 1: and have them to fill whatever it is you need crazy. 336 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:08,760 Speaker 1: We'll be back with more from Nikki. After a short break, 337 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:21,119 Speaker 1: we're back what she wants more. The trajectory for women 338 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 1: has been until the late twentieth century that we would 339 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:32,719 Speaker 1: be good daughters, good wives, good mothers, good grandmothers if 340 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:35,760 Speaker 1: we were lucky, and that was the arc. And what 341 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:41,640 Speaker 1: contemporary women are saying is that with more choices, they 342 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 1: end up having the ability to finesse an affair and 343 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:49,879 Speaker 1: the drive to finesse an affair if they so choose. 344 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:54,040 Speaker 1: That's Susan Shapiro Bearish, her book, A Passion for More, 345 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 1: inspired this podcast, and she's been researching women and affairs 346 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 1: for more than thirty years. How do you think affairs 347 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:06,120 Speaker 1: have changed since she started doing this in ninety years ago. 348 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:12,040 Speaker 1: Are you seeing more affairs, less affairs, women being more 349 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 1: comfortable talking about them. What are the big changes that 350 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 1: you've seen. First of all, I do think there are 351 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:21,359 Speaker 1: more and more affairs. I think that women have more agency. 352 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:25,480 Speaker 1: I think that women are more self aware with every decade, 353 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:28,919 Speaker 1: so they're really saying, well, what am I not getting 354 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 1: in this relationship? And how lucky I am to have 355 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:37,159 Speaker 1: found this lover who can provide when I'm missing so 356 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 1: women are feeling more like they deserve to have an affair, 357 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:44,240 Speaker 1: And of course I don't want anyone judged. You know, 358 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 1: this is just in the pie of life, and women 359 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:53,160 Speaker 1: who have affairs, they're saying I want more. In fact, 360 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:58,000 Speaker 1: I have a passion for more. Before talking to Susan 361 00:22:58,000 --> 00:22:59,959 Speaker 1: and Nikki, I'm not sure if I thought of an 362 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 1: affair as just another choice, But the more I think 363 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:08,199 Speaker 1: about it, it just makes sense. As women throughout the 364 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:12,240 Speaker 1: course of history, haven't we always gotten the short end 365 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 1: of the stick? Haven't we historically, and frankly even right now, 366 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:20,760 Speaker 1: lacked the autonomy to make decisions about our own lives 367 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:24,919 Speaker 1: and our own bodies. So is an affair just a choice? 368 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:28,160 Speaker 1: A choice to feel happier, a choice to feel good, 369 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:33,760 Speaker 1: the choice for more. But an affair doesn't happen in 370 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:37,880 Speaker 1: a vacuum. It can always go further. And what happens 371 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:45,600 Speaker 1: when that affair isn't just sex. It's a relationship that's complicated. 372 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:51,680 Speaker 1: I decided to ask Nikki, you seem really good at 373 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 1: not getting emotionally attached, But has there been a time 374 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:57,679 Speaker 1: when one of these relationships started to cross a line? 375 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 1: I think the way you know you cross the line. 376 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 1: It's like any other relationship. If you just start thinking 377 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:06,440 Speaker 1: about that person constantly, you can't stand it. When you're 378 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:09,000 Speaker 1: not talking or texting all you wanted to be with 379 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:15,080 Speaker 1: that person, you've gone too far. And it definitely organically 380 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:19,560 Speaker 1: happened with a man in New York, and honestly, I 381 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:22,200 Speaker 1: don't know if it would have stopped or how it 382 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:25,960 Speaker 1: would have stopped, but he got caught and it stopped abruptly, 383 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:29,919 Speaker 1: and because I had feelings for him, it just was 384 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 1: so painful. And being in the long term relationship in 385 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:38,840 Speaker 1: a marriage so young, that's something I hadn't really experienced before, 386 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:42,600 Speaker 1: like grown up version of heartbreak. And it stopped, and 387 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:45,680 Speaker 1: I so so shitty. And you know what else, It's 388 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 1: like the old saying, if you want to get over 389 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,119 Speaker 1: one man, you have to get under another. And it 390 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:53,600 Speaker 1: was so true. And I went right back to Ashley 391 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:57,520 Speaker 1: Madison and got back on the horse. Nikki got right 392 00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 1: back on the horse. She just wanted to have X, 393 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 1: but with the next guy she ended up getting way 394 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:10,360 Speaker 1: more than she bargained for. And then last year, literally 395 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:15,360 Speaker 1: was planning an appointment for a Wednesday afternoon, and this 396 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 1: was a Friday, and I said, I can't talk on 397 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 1: the weekend, but if you can video tell with me 398 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:24,080 Speaker 1: on Monday, I can confirm my availability for Wednesday afternoon. 399 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:27,360 Speaker 1: Quite business like, I got on what's up? I got 400 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,440 Speaker 1: in this video call and the man staring back at me, 401 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:34,760 Speaker 1: the connection of his eyes, the way he looked at me, 402 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:37,280 Speaker 1: I was like, funk, I should have breast my hair. 403 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:40,359 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, guy. I don't know what it was 404 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:42,919 Speaker 1: about him, because I wanted to be like such a 405 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:44,879 Speaker 1: hard ass and I we're like, I haven't even breshed 406 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:47,160 Speaker 1: my hair yet today. And I don't only care about 407 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:49,679 Speaker 1: this video meeting because I'm just going through emotions with 408 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:51,679 Speaker 1: you to see if I want to have sex. I 409 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:55,440 Speaker 1: just stopped something different, and so we started talking NonStop 410 00:25:55,800 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 1: through that through video on the phone, which not stop talking. 411 00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:06,159 Speaker 1: And so we met that week. And I feel like 412 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:08,239 Speaker 1: I have butterflies all over my body right now just 413 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:11,680 Speaker 1: telling you this, because we've been involved since last August 414 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:18,320 Speaker 1: September and we have had the most intense, dramatic romantic 415 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,720 Speaker 1: relationship of my adult life, and I have no idea 416 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:24,560 Speaker 1: what's going to happen. I feel like because I know 417 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:28,239 Speaker 1: so much about so much of this whole world as 418 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:30,920 Speaker 1: far as affairs and things, I have no idea where 419 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:35,640 Speaker 1: it will go. I have let go of the expectation 420 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:39,040 Speaker 1: of not being close to someone and not crossing lines 421 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:42,320 Speaker 1: because rigid boundaries like that are really hard to follow. 422 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,240 Speaker 1: And it sounds really good on paper, but being good 423 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 1: on paper isn't enough. That we know, and that's what 424 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 1: brought us here to this entire conversation. So now I 425 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:55,840 Speaker 1: see him exclusively and we'll see what happened. Wow, And 426 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 1: so you're open to that if it came to you 427 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:01,400 Speaker 1: were both in a place where you could leave your spouses, 428 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 1: you would with this person. Finally, be open to that, 429 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:08,159 Speaker 1: I think so. And he's gonna he's already he's not 430 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:13,159 Speaker 1: married anymore, and so it's I'm the one who is married. 431 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 1: And so now I'm spending a lot of time with 432 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:23,040 Speaker 1: him and his because and we definitely talk about the future. 433 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 1: Not there yet, not been the easiest road for this relationship. 434 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:29,439 Speaker 1: I just don't know where it will go. But I 435 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:32,960 Speaker 1: feel like I have a lot of control and experience 436 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 1: under my belt to be in a good position to 437 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 1: make the right call when it comes time to it. 438 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:41,160 Speaker 1: But you've met his kids, that's a big deal. I know, 439 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:45,439 Speaker 1: of course, but he can't meet and he can't that 440 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:49,120 Speaker 1: is that is a lot to be feeling right now. 441 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:51,320 Speaker 1: You're going through a lot. It is a lot, and 442 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:54,000 Speaker 1: it's I think one of the hardest things about it 443 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:56,400 Speaker 1: is when it's really heavy and you know, I've got 444 00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,160 Speaker 1: that ball of anxiety and your stomach and that lump 445 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:02,600 Speaker 1: in your throat and someone who everybody else in your 446 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:04,640 Speaker 1: life doesn't know about it, so there's no one really 447 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:08,040 Speaker 1: to talk to, and then people don't understand why you're 448 00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:09,960 Speaker 1: reacting a certain way because you don't really know what's 449 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:12,399 Speaker 1: on your plates. And then before you know what your 450 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:16,919 Speaker 1: plates become a plotter, and effectively, I feel like I 451 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 1: am now living two totally separate lives, which is interesting, 452 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:24,960 Speaker 1: and not crossing those two has been very hard. But again, 453 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:29,359 Speaker 1: my ultimate goal is to be as happy as I 454 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:31,720 Speaker 1: can be and to be the best version of myself 455 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:35,800 Speaker 1: for myself and for everyone that I love, and this 456 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:39,960 Speaker 1: is an important part of that. And so to be continued. 457 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 1: I asked Nikki if she's ever imagined telling her husband 458 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:54,960 Speaker 1: about the affair and what that might look like. Yeah, 459 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:58,040 Speaker 1: I do, actually, and now I'm starting to get emotional, 460 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:01,840 Speaker 1: so I apologize it. Last year, when I first met 461 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:05,080 Speaker 1: the man that i'm with, nell I said to my husband, 462 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:10,040 Speaker 1: are you open to having a conversation about divorce? And 463 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:12,959 Speaker 1: he acted so surprised, and I said, I'm not happy, 464 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 1: and I don't think you're happy either. You want someone 465 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:18,800 Speaker 1: to be domestic and clean house all day and make 466 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:23,960 Speaker 1: dinner for you, and you resent me because I worked 467 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 1: so much, and I resent you because you don't care 468 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:30,160 Speaker 1: about sex. And I just think we deserve to be happy. 469 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:33,080 Speaker 1: And he's like, well, I guess i'd be open to it. 470 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:35,280 Speaker 1: He's like, but not now if you have some kind 471 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 1: of boyfriend on the side, And of course I lied 472 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 1: into no, I don't. That's how much this is about. 473 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:42,400 Speaker 1: And he was kind of pissed her a couple of 474 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:44,400 Speaker 1: days and he was just saying things like, you know, 475 00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:46,520 Speaker 1: it would be really sad if we split up. We've 476 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:49,520 Speaker 1: we have a family, we've been together forever, and I 477 00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:53,200 Speaker 1: just can't imagine not being married. And this is why 478 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 1: I say he's oblivious, because this was October and he 479 00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:01,440 Speaker 1: has never brought it up again. He has never done 480 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:06,120 Speaker 1: anything different, anything to keep me, anything to do anything 481 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:10,040 Speaker 1: but just let time go by, and that's not willing 482 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:12,680 Speaker 1: to keep doing that. And I think about so many 483 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:16,960 Speaker 1: women I know that are are likely to be unhappy, 484 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 1: or maybe they've gain weight, or they don't feel great 485 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:21,760 Speaker 1: about themselves, or their husbands aren't having sex the way 486 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 1: they want them to. And I think about how many 487 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 1: women are probably just silently suffering through monalogamous relationships or 488 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:33,040 Speaker 1: marriages because they feel like they have to and they 489 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 1: don't know where to start, or they don't know how 490 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:36,600 Speaker 1: they'll ever get out of it or have anything else. 491 00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:41,040 Speaker 1: And it's just it's such a problem of privilege. I 492 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:44,080 Speaker 1: understand that there are what way worse things in the world, 493 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 1: but when it comes something that's terrible on any scale, 494 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:51,000 Speaker 1: for any person who, no matter who they are, it's 495 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:54,640 Speaker 1: a wasted life of not being happy. And I think 496 00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:58,720 Speaker 1: that's the worst thing that could happen to anybody. She's right, 497 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:03,400 Speaker 1: don't We all just deserve to be happy. But happiness 498 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:07,040 Speaker 1: is just one need that an affair can fulfill. Susan 499 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:10,120 Speaker 1: Shapiro Barrish, who we spoke to earlier in this episode, 500 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,200 Speaker 1: has interviewed hundreds of women about their affairs over the 501 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:17,240 Speaker 1: past thirty years, and in her research, she's actually categorized 502 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 1: four different types of affairs based off the reasons that 503 00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 1: women pursue them. Women have empowering affairs, sex German affairs, 504 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:32,520 Speaker 1: self esteem affairs, and love affairs. When I talked to 505 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:37,400 Speaker 1: women about empowering affairs, it was very new because suddenly 506 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:39,800 Speaker 1: women felt that they were on a par with what 507 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:42,400 Speaker 1: men had been able to do, you know, like a 508 00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:45,520 Speaker 1: husband who would go on a business trip and sort 509 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:48,240 Speaker 1: of have fun on the side, and women were expected 510 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:50,960 Speaker 1: to look the other way. And so these women are saying, hey, 511 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:54,000 Speaker 1: I trade in the same currency as men. I earn 512 00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:56,480 Speaker 1: a lot of money, I travel when I need to, 513 00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:00,280 Speaker 1: I'm independent, and this is the type of are that 514 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:03,480 Speaker 1: I choose to have. In terms of the sex driven affairs, 515 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 1: and those are I think, pretty self explanatory. The women 516 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:13,280 Speaker 1: are really specifically saying, look, not enough sex, not exciting enough, 517 00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 1: not intriguing enough. I want something very different than my 518 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:21,240 Speaker 1: partner does, than my husband wants. The self esteem affair 519 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:25,000 Speaker 1: has a lot to do with longevity. You've been married 520 00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:28,640 Speaker 1: five years, you have two children, You look in the mirror, 521 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 1: you're maybe close to forty, and you say, is that 522 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:36,120 Speaker 1: all there is? Is this? It I don't feel really understood, 523 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:40,720 Speaker 1: I don't feel very visible, and the lover makes these 524 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:46,360 Speaker 1: women feel really alive, they feel really appreciated. In terms 525 00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:51,080 Speaker 1: of the love affairs, I've found those throughout my study 526 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:55,560 Speaker 1: to be the most poignant because I'll interview women and 527 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:59,600 Speaker 1: they'll say, my life was really fine. I loved my 528 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:04,160 Speaker 1: husband and I, you know, loved our family. I met 529 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:08,000 Speaker 1: someone online, I walked across the room at a party 530 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:13,320 Speaker 1: and something changed me and changed the way that I 531 00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:17,320 Speaker 1: want to go forward. And then you know, women will say, 532 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:21,360 Speaker 1: I'm in love with my lover, I love my husband still, 533 00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:31,440 Speaker 1: and then they're really caught. Susan's research made me think 534 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:35,760 Speaker 1: more about Nikki's story. Her affairs started because she wanted 535 00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:40,040 Speaker 1: something different sexually, but they also changed along the way. 536 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:44,480 Speaker 1: They made her feel empowered, improved her self esteem, and 537 00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:49,120 Speaker 1: her most current affair is for love. An affair might 538 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:52,840 Speaker 1: seem to start for one reason, but people are complicated. 539 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:58,080 Speaker 1: Life is complicated, and the motivations behind these affairs and 540 00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:00,880 Speaker 1: what they do for the people who have them are 541 00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:06,360 Speaker 1: very nuanced. Nikki is a perfect example of that. In 542 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:08,759 Speaker 1: future episodes, we are going to hear from a lot 543 00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:11,840 Speaker 1: more women, many of whom are telling the story of 544 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:15,840 Speaker 1: their affair for the very first time. We won't just 545 00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,719 Speaker 1: be learning about the details. We're also going to hear 546 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,720 Speaker 1: how it changed them and why they took such huge 547 00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:30,439 Speaker 1: risks to feel more confident, sexy, fulfilled, and loved. We're 548 00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:32,920 Speaker 1: also going to be bringing in plenty of experts to 549 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:35,479 Speaker 1: help us figure out what does all of this mean 550 00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:41,960 Speaker 1: and to answer a lot of questions. Are more women 551 00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:44,839 Speaker 1: cheating now or are more women talking about it right? 552 00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:48,839 Speaker 1: Because historically they have just face so many more consequences 553 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:50,920 Speaker 1: compared to men. I think we need to take the 554 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:55,799 Speaker 1: stigma out of all of this because infidelity is a 555 00:34:55,960 --> 00:35:00,680 Speaker 1: normal part of the sexual repertoire of the human female. 556 00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:06,120 Speaker 1: That's all coming soon. This is She Wants More. Thanks 557 00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:11,759 Speaker 1: for listening. She Wants More was inspired by the book 558 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:16,040 Speaker 1: A Passion for More by Susan Shapiro Bearish. It was 559 00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:20,560 Speaker 1: adapted for audio by executive producers Merril Poster, Kara Pfeiffer, 560 00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:24,640 Speaker 1: and Susan Shapiro Bearish. She Wants More is hosted and 561 00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:29,040 Speaker 1: reported by me Joe Piazza. Jennifer Bassett is our lead 562 00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:33,440 Speaker 1: producer and story editor. Our sound design is by Jessica Crunchich. 563 00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:37,520 Speaker 1: Our theme was composed by Anna Stumpf and Hamilton Lighthouser. 564 00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:42,000 Speaker 1: Research was done by Erica Berlin. Our executive producers for 565 00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:46,280 Speaker 1: I Heart are Ali Perry and Nikki Eator. She wants 566 00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:49,520 Speaker 1: More as a production of I Heeart Podcasts. For more 567 00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:52,040 Speaker 1: podcasts from my Heart, visit the I Heart Radio app, 568 00:35:52,200 --> 00:36:01,239 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.