1 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet, as a production 2 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:13,000 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd, 3 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:14,840 Speaker 1: and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet. 4 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:19,480 Speaker 1: So I've been wanting to do an episode about Kibe 5 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:22,040 Speaker 1: Farms for a while now, but it's a little bit 6 00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:24,239 Speaker 1: like Beetlejuice. You know. I didn't want to go saying 7 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:26,360 Speaker 1: their name too many times and having them wind up 8 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 1: at my door. I should say right up front that 9 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 1: this is gonna be some pretty dark stuff. We're gonna 10 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 1: be talking about things like harassment, suicide, incest, and honestly, 11 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:38,200 Speaker 1: it's the kind of stuff I try to avoid talking 12 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 1: too much about on the show. Now. You know, I 13 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:43,279 Speaker 1: love the Internet, but these are the pockets of the 14 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 1: Internet that I just don't even like thinking about. I'll 15 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:49,160 Speaker 1: get into this more in a little bit, but that inclination, 16 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:52,320 Speaker 1: you know, the inclination to just not think about it 17 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 1: or talk about it that I have, is actually part 18 00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 1: of the problem. Last week, the website Kiwie Farms was 19 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 1: essentially shuttered. So I think it's time to discuss the 20 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 1: havoc that Kiwi Farms waged on marginalized people on the Internet. 21 00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 1: The successful campaign to stop them and what it all means. So, 22 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 1: first of all, if you don't know what Kiwi Farms 23 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:14,120 Speaker 1: is at its core, Kibi Farms is an old school 24 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:18,200 Speaker 1: message board website. It was started in by Joshua Moon, 25 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:22,199 Speaker 1: who was a former administrator of the website h Chan. Now, 26 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:25,839 Speaker 1: the original Kiwi Farms origin story is also pretty dark. 27 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 1: It was originally started as a message board to track 28 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 1: the trans amateur cartoonist called Christine Weston Chandler in two 29 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:35,680 Speaker 1: thousand and eight. Now, originally the site was called c 30 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:40,039 Speaker 1: w C k I, an acronym for Christine Weston Chandler's 31 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 1: name pronounced as Quickie. So Chandler used to make these 32 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 1: really crude sonic the Hedgehog Pikachu hybrid cartoons, chronicling her 33 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 1: life as an unemployed person with autism, and Joshua Moon 34 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 1: made it his mission to document her entire digital footprint 35 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 1: from Facebook post to hims on her Etsy storefront. And this, 36 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 1: this obsessive documenting of a trans person's online life and 37 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:11,240 Speaker 1: behavior would go on to become Kibi Farms. To Kibi Farms, 38 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:14,880 Speaker 1: people like Chandler are what they call loll cows or 39 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:17,240 Speaker 1: an l O L cow, which is a person that 40 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:20,880 Speaker 1: they can essentially stalk, whose behavior will provide the milk 41 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 1: of being able to laugh at them and harass them. Now, 42 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 1: Christine Chandler's story gets very very dark. It involves her 43 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:31,480 Speaker 1: being arrested for sex crimes against her mother. And if 44 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:33,400 Speaker 1: you want to know more, there is a great piece 45 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 1: in input that goes into great detail about the origins 46 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 1: of Kibi Farms and Chandler, which I'll put in the description. So, 47 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 1: Kibi Farms was basically created to harass people on the Internet, 48 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:48,600 Speaker 1: most of whom are marginalized in some way. Usually Kibi 49 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:52,080 Speaker 1: Farms coordinates harassment against trans people or non binary people, 50 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 1: but also feminists, neuro divergent people, people who are like 51 00:02:56,680 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 1: really online or considered online figures, or people who they 52 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 1: perceive as deviant in some way. And I know I 53 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 1: say this a lot on the podcast, but their harassment 54 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:09,560 Speaker 1: wasn't just a thing happening on the Internet. It often 55 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 1: had a really dangerous and violent real world component. This 56 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 1: includes tactics like revealing their targets in real life addresses 57 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 1: or contact information through doxing. Check out our episode on 58 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 1: doxing one oh one for more information and how this works. 59 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 1: They also engage in a pretty dangerous tactic called swatting. 60 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 1: Swatting is a tactic associated with online gaming where someone 61 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 1: calls law enforcement and reports a bogus crime happening at 62 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 1: the address of the target, with the hopes that law 63 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 1: enforcement will rush in and potentially open fire. Kibei Farms 64 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 1: has a long documented history of really dangerous I r 65 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 1: L harassment. Journalist Caitlin Burns wrote about her experience being 66 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 1: docked on Kibi Farms for NBC. Her pieces in the 67 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:57,840 Speaker 1: description and It's a must read. She says, at the 68 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 1: time that she started being harassed by Kibei Farm, she 69 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 1: was a young trans journalist with a small but growing 70 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 1: online audience, and a friend of hers was monitoring Kibi 71 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 1: Farms and saw a post that someone made on the 72 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 1: website about obtaining her p i I or personal identifying 73 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 1: information to doc sor And it turned out that they 74 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:18,719 Speaker 1: have gotten this information from a really old Twitter account 75 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 1: where she tweeted her location and that was all they 76 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 1: needed to track down her name change documents and contact information, 77 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 1: So pretty scary stuff. In her piece, she goes on 78 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 1: to describe how once you're on the radar of a 79 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 1: website like Kibi Farms, it basically gets into your head, 80 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 1: and that is the whole point. She writes, This, of course, 81 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 1: is the entire point of the site, to get in 82 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:42,800 Speaker 1: your head. As a target of Kibi Farms, the more 83 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 1: you let in that you thought about them, the happier 84 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 1: they would get. For trans people in particular, who are 85 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:50,559 Speaker 1: more likely to have an online social life after friends 86 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:54,919 Speaker 1: and family abandoned them after transitioning, Kibi Farms was especially dangerous. 87 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:57,320 Speaker 1: So she goes on to talk about how because of 88 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:00,159 Speaker 1: these attacks, she basically has given up the luxury of 89 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:02,839 Speaker 1: really being her true self on the internet. You know, 90 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 1: she doesn't post about her dating life or her personal life. 91 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:07,840 Speaker 1: If she wants to tweet anything that she knows will 92 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:11,920 Speaker 1: get her undue attention, she doesn't. She writes, no other 93 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 1: force in the history of my life has restricted my 94 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 1: free speech as much as Kibi Farms did. And I 95 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:21,279 Speaker 1: think this really raises a key point. So many people 96 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:23,600 Speaker 1: use free speech as the reason to keep sites like 97 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:27,040 Speaker 1: Kibi Farms up, but what can often go overlooked are 98 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 1: the ways that allowing sites like Kibi Farms to operate 99 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:32,600 Speaker 1: like they do actually suppresses the free speech of the 100 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:36,240 Speaker 1: people they target who tend to be already marginalized. Kibi 101 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 1: Farms has also been linked to deaths by suicide. Just 102 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 1: a quick note to say that I say linked to 103 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 1: with some intention. The Foundation for Reporting on Suicide says 104 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:48,359 Speaker 1: that it's important not to oversimplify or speculate on the 105 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 1: reason for suicides, So I don't want to do that, 106 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 1: but I will say that the people who died specifically 107 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:57,279 Speaker 1: mentioned being harassed by Kibie Farms before their deaths. In 108 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 1: nineteen year old Julie Terry, he died by suicide after 109 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:05,600 Speaker 1: being targeted by Kibi Farms. In a trans game, developer 110 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 1: named Chloe Sagle died by suicide after being harassed by 111 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 1: Kibe Farms. In a piece from organ Live, her friend A. J. 112 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 1: Luxton said that one factor that made it much harder 113 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 1: for her to get help was that whenever she talked 114 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 1: about suicide, Kiwi Farms members would report her Facebook page 115 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:23,919 Speaker 1: and get it locked down. This happened multiple times in 116 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 1: the month prior to her death, and just last year, 117 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 1: a highly respected non binary Nintendo emulator developer who went 118 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 1: by Near died by suicide. Near was kind of prolific 119 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 1: in the gaming community. They were known for scanning over 120 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:41,039 Speaker 1: a thousand Supernintendo games for long term preservation and to 121 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:45,719 Speaker 1: accurately emulate the gameplay. Before Near's death, they offered Kiwi 122 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 1: Farms founder Joshua Moon their entire life savings about a 123 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:53,160 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty thousand dollars to remove a threat about 124 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:57,360 Speaker 1: them from the site. Moon refused. The last thread that 125 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:00,800 Speaker 1: Near posted on Twitter chronicles the you they faced from 126 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:04,920 Speaker 1: Kiwi Farms, and it is heartbreaking. Near wrote. The honest 127 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 1: truth is I've been bullied, ridiculed, and humiliated my entire life, 128 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 1: from my earliest grade school memories to now. It's always 129 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 1: hurt me deeply enough that I can't describe it in words. 130 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 1: I could only just tolerate it with heavy depression when 131 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 1: it was fortune. But Kiwi Farms has made the harassment 132 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 1: orders of magnitude worse. It's escalated from attacking me for 133 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:27,119 Speaker 1: being autistic to attacking and docking my friends and trying 134 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 1: to suicide bait another just to get a reaction from me. 135 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:32,960 Speaker 1: I lost one of my best friends to this. I 136 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 1: feel responsible. I have tried changing in every way possible 137 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 1: as they wanted me in order to get this to stop, 138 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 1: but it just never does. Every few months, it's something new, 139 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 1: a new docks, a new thread, a new tangent. It's 140 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:47,000 Speaker 1: just too much to bear any longer. The Internet is 141 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 1: not a game, it's real life. I'm a real person. 142 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 1: This stuff really hurts. I poured my entire life into this. 143 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 1: I have no real life friends, I have no other 144 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 1: reason for being, only this, and now I have nothing. 145 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 1: It's too late for me, but I pray that someone 146 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 1: at some point will do something about that website. There's 147 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 1: too many people suffering and no one seems to care 148 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 1: because we're all relative. Nobody's online, and they know that 149 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 1: evil triumphs when good men do nothing. Kibee Farms was 150 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 1: also put on a lot of people's radars after the 151 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 1: christ Church terror attack in twenty nineteen, where a gunman 152 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 1: entered two mosques in christ Church, New Zealand and killed 153 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 1: fifty one people while they were at worship and injured 154 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:29,440 Speaker 1: forty more. After the christ Church terror attack, Kibi Farms 155 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 1: founder Joshua Moon refused a request from law enforcement to 156 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:36,440 Speaker 1: provide data of users who had posted videos of the attack. 157 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:39,320 Speaker 1: He responded to an email from a detective calling the 158 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:43,199 Speaker 1: request for help a joke, labeling New Zealand a quote 159 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:47,200 Speaker 1: small irrelevant island nation and a ship whole country with 160 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 1: f slur laws. So this is a bit of a 161 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 1: case of strange bedfellows. But after Kibi Farms recently attacked 162 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 1: Republican congress Person Marjorie Taylor Green, she called for Kibi 163 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 1: Farms to be shut down. Margie Taylor Green was swatted 164 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:04,560 Speaker 1: by a Kiwi Farms member. Police got a call about 165 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 1: a man who had been shot in a bathtub at 166 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 1: her address, and when they arrived they realized the call 167 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:12,080 Speaker 1: was scake. Authorities later got a call from a person 168 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 1: using a computer generated voice who said they were a 169 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:16,959 Speaker 1: Kiwi Farms member and that they had tried to swap 170 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 1: Green in connection with her stands on transgender youth rights. Now, 171 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 1: given that Kiwi Farms has used this very same model, 172 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 1: you know, calling in bogus crimes and attributing them to 173 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 1: trans people in order to harass and attack them, I 174 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:32,440 Speaker 1: think it's fair that we should be skeptical of the 175 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 1: claim that that person who did this was actually doing 176 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 1: so out of some kind of affinity for trans youth. 177 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:42,559 Speaker 1: So basically, Kiwi Farms was this horrible cesspool internet website 178 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 1: that coordinated dangerous harassment against trans folks, non binary folks, 179 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 1: and other marginalized people on the Internet, which brings us 180 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 1: to Kettle's. So who this kettle's? Kettle's is a Canadian 181 00:09:55,840 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 1: Twitch streamer and transactivist named Clara Sorrenti. She had her 182 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 1: personal information docked by Kiwi Farms and was also swatted 183 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:08,720 Speaker 1: by them last month. That swatting attack sounds terrifying. She 184 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 1: was arrested and detained for over ten hours after someone 185 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:16,600 Speaker 1: spoofed her identity and sent emails to local politicians threatening 186 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:19,480 Speaker 1: mass violence in her name. So after this happened, she 187 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 1: fled from her home and started living out of a hotel. 188 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:25,200 Speaker 1: She posted a picture that happened to show the hotel betting, 189 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:28,480 Speaker 1: and people on Kiwi Farms were able to determine what 190 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 1: hotel she was staying in just from that one photo 191 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:35,800 Speaker 1: by cross referencing which hotels used that specific type of betting. 192 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 1: They sent pizzas to her hotel room under her dead name, 193 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 1: and eventually she ended up leaving the hotel and fleeing 194 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 1: the country for her own safety. Keppel started a campaign 195 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 1: to have Kiwi Farms dropped by cloud Flare. So what 196 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:53,319 Speaker 1: is cloud Fair, cloud Affair is a content delivery network 197 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 1: or a cd N. Basically, long story short, cloud Fare 198 00:10:57,440 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 1: is a company that people used to securely run website 199 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:02,480 Speaker 1: it's on the Internet. The kind of services they provide 200 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:05,080 Speaker 1: are essential for protecting Kiwi Farms and keeping them up 201 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:07,679 Speaker 1: and running, and this is what the drop Kiwi Farms 202 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 1: campaign targeted in order to get them shut down. Let's 203 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 1: take a quick break out her back. So we were 204 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 1: talking about Kiwi Farms, a website on the Internet known 205 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:35,120 Speaker 1: for coordinating harassment against trans people, and after a dangerous 206 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:38,600 Speaker 1: hate campaign against twitch streamer Kettles in which she had 207 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:41,960 Speaker 1: to flee her home and then later the country, she 208 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:45,560 Speaker 1: fought back by starting a campaign targeting the company cloud 209 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 1: Flare to drop Kiwi Farms. Cloud for our services were 210 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 1: basically protecting Kiwi Farms from denial of service attacks, which 211 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:55,839 Speaker 1: are cyber attacks that can take a site offline by 212 00:11:55,880 --> 00:12:00,360 Speaker 1: overwhelming them with bought traffic, and cloud Fair protected Kibi 213 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:03,200 Speaker 1: Farms by hiding the identity of their website hosting company 214 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:05,959 Speaker 1: so that people couldn't pressure that company to take action 215 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 1: against the site. So cloud Fare is pretty notorious for 216 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 1: just kind of brushing aside content moderation questions, but they 217 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:17,439 Speaker 1: have taken action twice before. They pulled their protections for 218 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 1: the website h Chan and for the Nazi website The 219 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 1: Daily Stormer. Now, because of Catholics as large Twitch streaming audience, 220 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:27,000 Speaker 1: her campaign to get cloud Fair to drop Kibi Farms 221 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 1: grew in support very quickly. Cloud Fare initially just kind 222 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:33,080 Speaker 1: of dragged their feet and basically said that they would 223 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 1: not drop Kibi Farms. Cloud Fare put out a statement saying, quote, 224 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 1: some argue that we should terminate these services to content 225 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:43,199 Speaker 1: we find reprehensible so that others can launch attacks and 226 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:46,080 Speaker 1: knock it offline. That is the equivalent argument in the 227 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:49,200 Speaker 1: physical world that the fire department shouldn't respond to fires 228 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:52,240 Speaker 1: in homes of people who do not possess sufficient moral character. 229 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:55,960 Speaker 1: So it's kind of interesting that cloud flares position is 230 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 1: that they do not want to be the arbiters of 231 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:00,960 Speaker 1: who they provide their protection services to, because it's also 232 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 1: worth noting that they did drop services for the website 233 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:08,880 Speaker 1: Twitter back in, a social media website popular with sex workers. 234 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:11,440 Speaker 1: So basically they're saying that they want to help prevent 235 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 1: denial of service attacks for everyone and that that will 236 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:17,600 Speaker 1: make the Internet better for all of us. But interestingly enough, 237 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:21,079 Speaker 1: in a really great piece for Verge, Casey Newton reports 238 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:24,319 Speaker 1: that serge A p Usa Took, who was convicted of 239 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 1: running a denial of service for higher scheme, said that 240 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:31,080 Speaker 1: cloud Fair actually profited from the exact kind of schemes 241 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:34,320 Speaker 1: that he was convicted of running by basically helping him 242 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 1: to do it and then turning around in selling their 243 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:40,320 Speaker 1: protection to his victims. He writes in a blog post, 244 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:43,160 Speaker 1: cloud Fare is a fire department that prides itself on 245 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 1: putting out fires at any house, regardless of the individual 246 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:49,600 Speaker 1: that lives there. What they forgot to mention is that 247 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 1: they are actively lighting those fires and making money from 248 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:55,840 Speaker 1: putting them out. So, in my opinion, whenever a tech 249 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 1: company says they can't do something, what they're actually really 250 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:01,199 Speaker 1: saying is they don't want to do something because it 251 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 1: will be inconvenient or costly for them to do so. 252 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:07,640 Speaker 1: And Keppel's campaign pretty much proved that to be correct. 253 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:11,480 Speaker 1: In a statement from Catholics drop Kibi Farms campaign website, 254 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 1: they basically called them out on it, saying cloud Fare 255 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 1: maintains the fiction that they can be a neutral provider 256 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 1: of services, but there is nothing neutral about helping maintain 257 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 1: a site that leads to real world violence, harassment, and harm. 258 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 1: If you protect a person's ability to commit heinous crimes, 259 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 1: you bear responsibility for those crimes. You cannot pretend to 260 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 1: be the neutral bodyguard of a killer. And eventually, after 261 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 1: all of the pressure that Catholics generated and organized against 262 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:41,280 Speaker 1: cloud Fair, the CEO of cloud Fair reversed course and 263 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:45,280 Speaker 1: dropped Kibi Farms, eventually saying that the site represented an 264 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 1: imminent and emergency threat to human life, which led to 265 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 1: a chain reaction of other companies dropping them as well. 266 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 1: According to a statement from the drop Kibi Farms campaign website, 267 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 1: after the announcement that cloud Fare would drop Kibi Farms 268 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 1: as a customer, the site came online at end with 269 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 1: a Russian domain and switched to d d o s Guard. 270 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:06,840 Speaker 1: Less than twenty four hours later, d d os Guard, 271 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:10,280 Speaker 1: a Russian company that specializes in denial of service attack protection, 272 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 1: also dropped Kibi Farms. The Russian domain is now offline, 273 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 1: and Joshua Moon has stated I do not see a 274 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 1: situation where Kibi Farms is simply allowed to operate. It 275 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 1: will either become a fractured shell of itself like Hhan, 276 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 1: or jump between hosts and domains like Daily Stormer. So 277 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 1: Keppel's actually did it. After almost a decade of harassing 278 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 1: people and targeting people on the Internet, she took them down. 279 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 1: So I want to talk a little bit about why 280 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:40,440 Speaker 1: this campaign was successful. First, the drop Kibi Farms campaign 281 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:43,800 Speaker 1: is a really good reminder about the business end of hate. 282 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 1: Kibi Farms is not just a standalone website acting in 283 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:51,880 Speaker 1: a vacuum. Companies like Cloudfare support protect and prop up 284 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 1: dangerous websites like Kibi Farms, and they do so for profit. 285 00:15:56,240 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 1: After Cloudfare dropped Kibi FARMSKA a come many that basically 286 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 1: provides that service where you go to a website and 287 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:04,840 Speaker 1: you have to pick out all the different pictures that 288 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 1: contain stoplights or motorcycles in order to prove that you're 289 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:11,600 Speaker 1: not a bot followed suit. Now, these are all services 290 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 1: provided by companies that are essential to keep websites operating, 291 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 1: and I'm sure that many of these companies would probably 292 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 1: like to not be associated with the illegal, dangerous behavior 293 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 1: of some of the websites that they are responsible for 294 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:28,160 Speaker 1: keeping running, like, for instance, cloud fares. Twitter Bio says 295 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 1: that they have an ambitious goal to help build a 296 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:33,720 Speaker 1: better Internet. Now, can they really say that if they're 297 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:37,120 Speaker 1: providing protection for a website that is making people, particularly 298 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 1: people who are already marginalized, fear for their lives and safety. 299 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 1: Many of the people that keepe Farms target are vulnerable 300 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 1: or marginalized, and they might not have a lot of support, 301 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 1: you know, if they're queer or trans it's not uncommon 302 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 1: that they might not have strong relationships with family or 303 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:58,200 Speaker 1: other traditional support systems, or if a lot of their 304 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:00,600 Speaker 1: friends are friends they've made on the internet. But the 305 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 1: internet is also where they're being attacked. It can really 306 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:06,240 Speaker 1: erode whatever support system they've managed to use the Internet 307 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:09,400 Speaker 1: to build for themselves and isolate them from that support. 308 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:12,920 Speaker 1: So there is a saying in the black community if 309 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:15,440 Speaker 1: somebody ever says to you, you got the right one, 310 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:18,480 Speaker 1: or if they say to you you got the wrong one, 311 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:22,399 Speaker 1: you have picked the wrong person to mess with. And 312 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 1: I think this campaign was successful in part because in 313 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 1: messing with Kepple's, they had the right one and they 314 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 1: had the wrong one. As we say, Cavalis happened to 315 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:35,359 Speaker 1: have a lot of support. She had built up a 316 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 1: big audience base of people who liked her streams and 317 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 1: would help amplify her campaign against Kiwie Farms. She also 318 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:43,080 Speaker 1: had the financial means to be able to move for 319 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:46,159 Speaker 1: her safety, and I think it's a great indicator of 320 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 1: what happens when the victims and targets of this kind 321 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:53,240 Speaker 1: of harassment are listened to, taken seriously, and supported. Someone 322 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:55,639 Speaker 1: who did not have this kind of support might not 323 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 1: have been able to wage a successful campaign that would 324 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:01,720 Speaker 1: ultimately bring down Kiwi Farms because they just be trying 325 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:06,080 Speaker 1: to survive, which is precisely why Kiwi Farms target people 326 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 1: who are already vulnerable or marginalized to begin with. So 327 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 1: what does this all mean? Well, in my line of work, 328 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 1: when we're talking about hateful, harmful, violent pockets of the Internet, 329 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:19,120 Speaker 1: people often ask, well, if we take these sites down, 330 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:22,200 Speaker 1: won't they just go further underground and be that much 331 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:25,680 Speaker 1: harder to monitor? And the answer is actually really clear 332 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 1: that d platforming works. It is successful in taking away 333 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:33,600 Speaker 1: some of the power of these darker corners of the Internet. Listen, 334 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 1: we will probably never completely rid the Internet of websites 335 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:39,439 Speaker 1: like Kiwi Farms or the kinds of people who use 336 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:42,640 Speaker 1: them to cause harm, but d platforming makes it that 337 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 1: much harder for those sites to operate. In a statement 338 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 1: after Kibei Farms was dropped by cloud Flare, Keppel said 339 00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:52,400 Speaker 1: many sites that a face pressure campaigns to bed platforms 340 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:54,880 Speaker 1: like eight chan and a Daily Stormer are still online. 341 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:58,800 Speaker 1: They are nevertheless completely impotent. Whether or not we are 342 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:01,720 Speaker 1: able to completely remove Kiwi Farms from the Internet is 343 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 1: irrelevant to the fact that the goals of our campaign 344 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 1: have not only been achieved, but have been achieved more 345 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:09,240 Speaker 1: than we could have ever expected. I also think it's 346 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:12,199 Speaker 1: that's a really powerful precedent that companies who aid in 347 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:15,359 Speaker 1: a bet people hell bent on using the Internet to 348 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 1: call it this kind of harm should be unnoticed that 349 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:21,199 Speaker 1: they cannot do this and continue to say that they 350 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:24,359 Speaker 1: are neutral parties. You know, when people are dying because 351 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 1: of what you're doing, you're not neutral. When people are 352 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:29,800 Speaker 1: having to flee the country for their own safety because 353 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:32,680 Speaker 1: of what you're doing, you're not neutral. And I think 354 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:35,959 Speaker 1: it's that's a really powerful and clear precedent that, you know, 355 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:38,640 Speaker 1: statements about how you want to do good and build 356 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:41,439 Speaker 1: a better Internet, or donating to the right kinds of 357 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:45,119 Speaker 1: charities or causes while you continue to profit off of 358 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:48,120 Speaker 1: this kind of harm is not going to be acceptable. 359 00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:52,440 Speaker 1: The only thing that it's going to be acceptable is accountability. 360 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 1: So all of that to say, as gross as I 361 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:58,919 Speaker 1: find even thinking about sites like Kiwi Farms, we cannot 362 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:02,159 Speaker 1: ignore them as tempting as that is, because when we 363 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 1: ignore them, we just allow them to fester and grow 364 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:09,119 Speaker 1: and become more powerful and more tolerated. And in talking 365 00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 1: about Kibie Farms, I think it can actually be kind 366 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:15,480 Speaker 1: of a hopeful story because I think it actually demonstrates 367 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:18,080 Speaker 1: that we really can change the Internet to be a 368 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:21,879 Speaker 1: healthier and safer place for trans people. It's a clear 369 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:25,000 Speaker 1: example of what happens when we imagine that things can 370 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 1: be better than they are and actually making that dream 371 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:33,600 Speaker 1: a reality. Now, our safety online should not come down 372 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:36,120 Speaker 1: to the decisions made by a handful of rich, white 373 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:40,359 Speaker 1: tech dudes, but if it does, our voices can be 374 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:44,200 Speaker 1: way more powerful than there's. So what do you think 375 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:46,920 Speaker 1: about the whole Kiwi Farms thing? This was meant to 376 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:48,680 Speaker 1: be a summary. There is a lot more to say 377 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:51,160 Speaker 1: about it. We're gonna be doing a follow up episode, 378 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 1: so stay tuned for that. But hit me up and 379 00:20:53,560 --> 00:21:00,200 Speaker 1: let me know what you think, got a story about 380 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:02,200 Speaker 1: an interesting thing in tech, or just want to say hi. 381 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:04,920 Speaker 1: You can reach us at Hello at tangodi dot com. 382 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:07,360 Speaker 1: You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangdi 383 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:09,480 Speaker 1: dot com. There Are No Girls on the Internet was 384 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:11,879 Speaker 1: created by me Bridget Tod. It's a production of I 385 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 1: Heart Radio and Unboss creative Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer. 386 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 1: Tery Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato 387 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:22,679 Speaker 1: is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Tod. If 388 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:24,439 Speaker 1: you want to help us grow, rate and review us 389 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:27,640 Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from I heart Radio, 390 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 1: check out the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever 391 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:31,040 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts.