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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece. When I hear or see

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Speaker 1: the word judge, I have a lot of mixed emotions.

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Speaker 1: Several judges help me in contempt. Several judges made bad

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Speaker 1: rulings that hurt my case. Several judges that I practiced

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Speaker 1: in front, I've made horrible mistakes that ended up getting

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Speaker 1: cases reversed. On the other hand, most judges I've ever

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Speaker 1: encountered and or practiced before are some of the most

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Speaker 1: decent and honorable people I've ever met. So exactly how

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Speaker 1: does a Texas judge end up sentenced to the death penalty?

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Speaker 1: I mean, see Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you

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Speaker 1: for being with us here at Crime Stories and on

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Speaker 1: Serious XM one eleven. Let's just start at the beginning.

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Speaker 1: Take a listen to.

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Speaker 2: This January thirty. First, a nine to one to one

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Speaker 2: call comes in. The caller tells the operator that a

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Speaker 2: man has been shot. Around nine am. Five shots were

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Speaker 2: fired and seconds later three more shots were fired. Police

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Speaker 2: arrived at the scene swiftly and find Chief Assistant District

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Speaker 2: Attorney for the Kaufman County Criminal District Attorney's Office, Mark

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Speaker 2: hassee bleeding. No traces were left at the crime scene,

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Speaker 2: not even bullet casings the only evidence eyewitnesses. One witness

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Speaker 2: said the shooter was completely dressed in black and after

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Speaker 2: firing the shots, jumped into the back seat of a

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Speaker 2: white sedan and disappeared. Another witness, according to medium dot Com,

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Speaker 2: said he heard Hassee shotting loudly. No, no, I'm sorry,

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Speaker 2: Hasse dies.

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Speaker 1: Wow. Okay, I'm trying to drink in everything that I

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Speaker 1: just heard. A prosecutor in the Kaufman County dish Attorney's

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Speaker 1: office mark Hasse is dead. No traces left behind as

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Speaker 1: to who the perp could be. The shooter observed by

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Speaker 1: a witness clad totally in black, which says this was

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Speaker 1: premeditated and the park dressed up like a ninja, and

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Speaker 1: that Hasse pled for his life. That's what I know

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Speaker 1: right now. Joining me in All Star panel, but first

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Speaker 1: I want to go to special guests. Hayden Sparks joining us,

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Speaker 1: senior reporter for The Texan and you can find Hayden

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Speaker 1: at the Texan dot News. Hayden, thank you for being

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Speaker 1: with us. Let's just start with Hesse's death. What can

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Speaker 1: you tell me about it?

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Speaker 3: I think you highlighted one of the most disturbing aspects

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Speaker 3: of this case, and that is that he pled for

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Speaker 3: his life before he died. This type of violence is

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Speaker 3: something that one would expect a war torn country, not

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Speaker 3: a peaceful community on abouts of Dallas. And I think

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Speaker 3: the death of Mark is tragic.

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Speaker 1: I know this much. Let me go to renowned medical

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Speaker 1: examiner and pathologist, former detective with the Lexington County Sheriff's

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Speaker 1: Department thru Us to the forefront of our media generation

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Speaker 1: during the Alex Murdog double homicide case, author of money,

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Speaker 1: mischief and murder, the Murdog saga. The rest of the story.

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Speaker 1: I'm referring, of course, to doctor Michelle Duprie. You can

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Speaker 1: find her at d Michelle dupremd dot com. I know this,

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Speaker 1: doctor Duprix. I know that ballistics show that the victim,

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Speaker 1: Mark Hasse, was shot with an assault rifle. Wow, well,

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Speaker 1: can you tell me about assault rifles and what damage

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Speaker 1: would that do to a human body.

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Speaker 4: Yes, it's atrocious. Actually, assault rifles do a lot of

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Speaker 4: damage because of high velocity and so it will literally

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Speaker 4: leave holes, gaping holes in the body. And I haven't

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Speaker 4: seen the autopsy report, but from what I have seen,

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Speaker 4: he was shot multiple times.

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Speaker 1: With this shot multiple times with an assault rifle. To

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Speaker 1: Alan Bennett joining me, a former district attorney now civil

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Speaker 1: attorney at Gunter Bennett and ANTHISGBA firm dot com. Alan,

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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. What is your experience

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Speaker 1: with assault rifles and how are they different from let's

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Speaker 1: just say twenty two or thirty eight.

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Speaker 5: Well, and you're absolutely correct, Nancy. An assault rifle is

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Speaker 5: generally thought of as its name implais, it is a

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Speaker 5: rifle used to commit assaults. Typical examples will be an

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Speaker 5: AR fifteen carried by our US military and AK forty

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Speaker 5: seven carried by Soviet former Soviet block countries. They're generally

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Speaker 5: regarded as military weapons used by members of a standing army,

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Speaker 5: large capacity magazines, extremely high velocity bullets which do tremendous

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Speaker 5: damage to the human body, primarily designed to be used

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Speaker 5: on a battlefield.

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Speaker 1: You know, I remember the first time I saw an

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Speaker 1: assault weapon used. It was in a murder case. And

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Speaker 1: what I especially remember about it is the defense attorney

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Speaker 1: who later became a prosecutor, Paul Howard. His defense was

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Speaker 1: transferred intent because who his defendant murdered was a little

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Speaker 1: schoolboy named Moonbeam. His nickname played in the school band

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Speaker 1: and was going home to his mom after school, and

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Speaker 1: the defendants meant to shoot another drug dealer, but they

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Speaker 1: shot this little kid instead, who in the end was

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Speaker 1: crawling toward his home calling out for his mother. And

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Speaker 1: I saw that weapon and held it in court. It

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Speaker 1: was one of the ugliest I've ever seen. Looked like

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Speaker 1: a machine gun, and it looked like it had been

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Speaker 1: spray painted Matt black. That's what an assault rifle is like.

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Speaker 1: It's pure evil, and that's what was used. Multiple rounds

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Speaker 1: pumped into these victims. And when I say victims, that's right.

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Speaker 1: The first victim was prosecutor Mark Hasse. And back to

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Speaker 1: you again, Alan Bennett. When you prosecuted as I don't

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Speaker 1: know if you went through this, but I did you

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Speaker 1: get threats. You get death threats. I had my tire slash,

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Speaker 1: my front door kicked in, my mailbox locked over, blah

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Speaker 1: blah blah. But I think in the back of my mind,

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Speaker 1: I never really thought that anyone was going to kill me.

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Speaker 1: I don't know why I thought that after so many

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Speaker 1: attacks on my car and my my house and threats,

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Speaker 1: but I never really thought it would happen. What about you.

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Speaker 5: I'm in that same boat, Nancy, and I think part

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Speaker 5: of that is just our human conditioning to think, well,

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Speaker 5: that's just so extreme, that is so rare. It's in

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Speaker 5: that same mindset of thinking, well, that will never happen

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Speaker 5: to me. That's something that only happens to other people.

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Speaker 5: You only read about the news and the Unfortunately, from

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Speaker 5: time to time we wake up one day and realize

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Speaker 5: that we are those other people in the news and

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Speaker 5: that it can happen to us. I think it's that

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Speaker 5: false sense of security that we naturally assume just by

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Speaker 5: the rarity of those actual instances.

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Speaker 1: Well another thing too, Karen Start joining us renowned therapist

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Speaker 1: psychologist joining us out of Manhattan. You've seen her on TV,

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Speaker 1: on radio as a trauma expert and consultant. She's at

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Speaker 1: Karenstart dot com. Karen, I think part of it is

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Speaker 1: I don't know how you could live life at all

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Speaker 1: if you are constantly afraid.

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Speaker 6: Well, that's with out of doubt, Nancy, because anything could

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Speaker 6: happen to anyone right at any moment. You could cross

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Speaker 6: the streets people always use that example, and get hit

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Speaker 6: by a car. It just doesn't seem like something that

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Speaker 6: could possibly happen to anyone.

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Speaker 1: Well I mentioned that Mark Hassey was the first victim.

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Speaker 1: The story goes on. Take a listen.

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Speaker 7: Just two months after Assistant District Attorney Mike Costs is

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Speaker 7: gunned down, Kaufman County Criminal District Attorney Mike mcleland and

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Speaker 7: his wife, Cynthia mcleland plan an Easter dinner for friends

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Speaker 7: and family. Dallas Police Officer CJ. Tomlinson is a family friend.

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Speaker 7: His mother is supposed to drop off vegetables for Cynthia

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Speaker 7: mcleland to prepare for dinner. When she doesn't get the

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Speaker 7: mclelland's on the phone, she asked her son, Tomlinson to

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Speaker 7: check on the couple. Tomlinson and his stepfather go to

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Speaker 7: the mcleland home. The front door is open, showcasing's are

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Speaker 7: on the entryway floor. Mike and Cynthia Cleland both have

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Speaker 7: been shot dead. One of the shots was directly into

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Speaker 7: Cynthia mclelland's head. Tomlinson describes the scene as a home

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Speaker 7: invasion style assault.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I'm trying to make sense of what I'm hearing.

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Speaker 1: Mike and Cynthia McClelland also shot dead, with Cynthia McClelland

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Speaker 1: being shot execution style in the center of the forehead.

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Speaker 1: Again in their own homes. And this is Easter dinner

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Speaker 1: for friends and family. Prime Stories with Nancy Grace back

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Speaker 1: to Hayden Sparks joining us I investigative reporter with the

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Speaker 1: Texan What happened to them?

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Speaker 3: The husband and wife were in their home and joining dinner,

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Speaker 3: and they had the piece of their home and faded

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Speaker 3: by this individual and they were barbarically attacked as they

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Speaker 3: enjoyed the privacy of their home.

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Speaker 1: Now I understand they're getting ready for an Easter dinner

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Speaker 1: and they've invited friends and family over a police officer.

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Speaker 1: Of course, one of them must be a prosecutor, which.

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Speaker 3: One Mike McClellan was a prosecutor with the Cofton County

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Speaker 3: District Attorney's Office.

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Speaker 1: So he and Hassei were both prosecutors. Okay, Mike McClellan,

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Speaker 1: Assistant District Attorney and his wife Cynthia are preparing this

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Speaker 1: Easter meal a Dallas County police officer, which explains why

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Speaker 1: their friends with the cop because he's probably been a

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Speaker 1: witness for them a million times. CJ. Thomlinson's a family

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Speaker 1: friend and his mom is supposed to drop off veggies

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Speaker 1: for the Easter dinner, but she can't get them on

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Speaker 1: the phone, so she asked her son, the cop, to

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Speaker 1: check in on them. The cop, Tomlinson, and a stepdad

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Speaker 1: go over to the home when nobody answers and the

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Speaker 1: front door is why open now? Right there? Phil Waters?

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Speaker 1: Phil Water is joining me, former homicide detective for Houston PD,

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Speaker 1: president's CEO of Kindred Spirits Investigations and Security. You can

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Speaker 1: find to make Kindred Spirits Investigations dot com. Feil your

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Speaker 1: former homicide detective. When I see an open door on

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Speaker 1: somebody's home or apartment right now, I'm like, Okay, something's wrong,

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Speaker 1: because that's been true in every case I've seen where

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Speaker 1: the front door is wide open, well exactly.

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Speaker 8: On homicide, we'd call that a clue. Right, So, yeah,

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Speaker 8: when you see something that is not in its natural state,

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Speaker 8: which the door being closed, for a police officer approaching

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Speaker 8: a scene like that, certainly the spider sense is going

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Speaker 8: to go off and they're going to enter that property

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Speaker 8: with the expectation if they're going to find something that's

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Speaker 8: going to be out of the norm.

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Speaker 1: It also to me that the perp didn't care if

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Speaker 1: people saw the front door open or he and statistically

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Speaker 1: it's always a he left in a hurry, he didn't

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Speaker 1: bother to shut the door behind them. The floor strown

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Speaker 1: with shells. It was described as a home invasion. Front

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Speaker 1: door opened, shellcasing all over the entryway door, which tells

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Speaker 1: me that Purp started shooting the moment he came in

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Speaker 1: to you again. Doctor Michelle Dupree the author of another book,

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Speaker 1: Homicide Investigation Field Guy. She literally wrote the book on

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Speaker 1: homicide investigations. What does this tell you? That one of

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Speaker 1: the shots was directly into the forehead of the prosecutor's wife,

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Speaker 1: Cynthia McClelland, Nancy.

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Speaker 4: That's a statement that is execution style, and I'm obviously intentional.

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Speaker 4: So she was a target just like her husband.

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Speaker 1: Execution style. When you say execution style, doctor dupre explain

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Speaker 1: that interpret that for everyone.

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Speaker 4: Well, basically, you know, there is something a lot of

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Speaker 4: people call the T zone, which is in your forehead

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Speaker 4: if you make it too straight down your forehead into

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Speaker 4: your nose where if a gunshot is in that area,

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Speaker 4: it is most likely to be fatal. And usually there

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Speaker 4: is a couple of shots to the chest and wanted

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Speaker 4: a head in order to make sure that that person

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Speaker 4: is actually dead, and so that would be execution style.

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Speaker 1: Joining me right now is a special guest, and I

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Speaker 1: want to start questioning Early Wiley out of Texas as well,

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Speaker 1: with a very narrow line of questioning. Early Wily, thank

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Speaker 1: you for being with us or bank you nancon Early?

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Speaker 1: Did you know these three victims, Mike McClellan, Cynthy McClellan

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Speaker 1: and Mark.

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Speaker 9: Absolutely. Kaufman County is a small community, so sure, and

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Speaker 9: particularly ten years ago, everyone knows each other, particularly you

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Speaker 9: work at the courthouse together. You know, from your background experience,

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Speaker 9: you get to know the players. You see him every

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Speaker 9: day and you work with them as a prosecutor. And

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Speaker 9: then at the time I.

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Speaker 1: Was a judge, are you still called judge Wiley?

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Speaker 9: I am. I think it's, you know, one of those

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Speaker 9: we don't like titles in our country. But I retired

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Speaker 9: from the bench when I became the elected district attorney

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Speaker 9: because Mike wasn't an Ada, he was the elected prosecutor.

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Speaker 1: I'm glaud you told me that because that is a

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Speaker 1: very very important distinction, and not an assistant DA, the

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Speaker 1: elected DA. Judge Wiley was a judge, always a judge.

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Speaker 1: The other day. The other night, my daughter, he is

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Speaker 1: so shy, as a football manager at her high school,

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Speaker 1: and they had a banquet. And I went to the banquet,

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Speaker 1: of course, and at a distance I saw someone I

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Speaker 1: thought I recognized him, And after the banquet, I went

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Speaker 1: up to him and it was a judge I had

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Speaker 1: tried many many cases before when I first became a prosecutor,

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Speaker 1: and I naturally referred to him as judge, Yes, ma'am.

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Speaker 1: Another thing that you mentioned is the I guess, for

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Speaker 1: lack of a better word, camaraderie that you form with

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Speaker 1: people in the courthouse, the clerks, the judges, the court reporters,

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Speaker 1: the prosecutors, even the defense attorneys in a weird hybrid way,

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Speaker 1: because you were really in the trenches and you were

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Speaker 1: together in very very difficult combat duty. Every day. Every

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Speaker 1: day there are murderers, rapists, child molesters, drug lords walking

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Speaker 1: by you in the hall, chain together, I hope. Wandering

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Speaker 1: the courthouse, there are everybody's got a gun on them,

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Speaker 1: and you're trying cases that break your heart, investigating them,

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Speaker 1: doing the legal research, making arguments, feeling your stomach clinch

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Speaker 1: when you get a question from the jury. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you go through so much together, it's like really beating

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Speaker 1: the foxhole together. Right.

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Speaker 9: I would agree with that. I think your descriptors are

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Speaker 9: so accurate because, like you said, you know, I would

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Speaker 9: always tell my young prosecutors, Hey, when you go in

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Speaker 9: a room, you own it. So you make sure, because

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Speaker 9: we always sit by the jury box, that you make

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Speaker 9: good eye contact with that reporter. She's going to tell

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Speaker 9: you if you're going too fast and the judge doesn't,

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Speaker 9: she's going to tell you how you're doing. She's looking

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Speaker 9: at the jury. But you own that space that you

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Speaker 9: do work with everyone you work with the clerks. First

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Speaker 9: lesson I ever learned when I was a Dallas prosecutor.

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Speaker 9: Don't tick off a clerk.

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Speaker 1: Oh no, they'll make your life h E double l

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Speaker 1: If you are rude or arrogant to a clerk, first

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Speaker 1: of all, why would you be. They're working really long,

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Speaker 1: horrible hours at roy and I would say that, believe

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Speaker 1: it or not. My best friends of all these years

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Speaker 1: have been a defense attorney, female defense attorney, and a

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Speaker 1: court reporter that tra We tried cases together for years,

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Speaker 1: and of course my investigator Eizabeth all the time.

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Speaker 9: Oh my gosh, we couldn't do it with that then, no,

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Speaker 9: no way.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the bond do you have with these people,

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Speaker 1: so you know these people might Cynthia McClellan and Mark

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Speaker 1: hasse right.

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Speaker 9: Of course we were. We had been entertained at at

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Speaker 9: the McClellan's house because he's elected. I was elected judge

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Speaker 9: at Christmas party. Mark was in my office the night

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Speaker 9: before in chambers because we were working late with our

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Speaker 9: treatment cort and he came by and so we all,

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Speaker 9: of course knew each other. It wasn't as casual because

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Speaker 9: I was a judge. You keep a little bit of difference,

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Speaker 9: but we still knew each other. And if you were

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Speaker 9: there late, you walk each other out, because me and

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Speaker 9: my coordinator that ran the after hours treatment court program

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Speaker 9: were there and he was talking to her and that

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Speaker 9: he walked out, went his way, and I had a

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Speaker 9: closer parking because I was a judge.

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Speaker 1: You know, people also don't get it. Your hours are insane.

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Speaker 1: How I'd be at the courthouse on weekends, late, late,

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Speaker 1: late at night, and you sometimes I had it all

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Speaker 1: to myself, but usually there'd be somebody else, an investigator,

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Speaker 1: you know, one of the assistants, wandering around and when

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Speaker 1: you said there's a big difference between an assistant district attorney,

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Speaker 1: which what I was, and the elected district attorney. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if you remember my boss, Lewis Slayton. He

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Speaker 1: was then the longest serving district attorney in the US

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Speaker 1: thirty seven years. He's like a grandfather to me.

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Speaker 9: Wow.

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Speaker 1: And he allowed me to become a trial lawyer, which

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Speaker 1: has always been my life until I had the twins. Guys,

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Speaker 1: you were hearing Judge Early Wiley, who let me just

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Speaker 1: say and I let her explain the whole thing to you,

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Speaker 1: came that close to having a bullet in her forehead too.

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Speaker 1: So we now have three murder victims, all connected to

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Speaker 1: the district Attorney's office, and nobody knows what the hey

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Speaker 1: is going on. But now that you've got two DA's,

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Speaker 1: what cases were they working together? Why those two das?

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Speaker 1: Why not another assistant DA? Well, they got a break.

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Speaker 1: They got a break because of home security surveillance. Take

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Speaker 1: a listen to our reporter Sidney Sumner from Crime Online.

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Speaker 2: Then came a break.

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Speaker 1: An acquaintance of Eric Williams.

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Speaker 2: Said that a few months ago he had been asked

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Speaker 2: to rent a garage in his name. Police find the

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Speaker 2: white sedan in the garage, as well as police uniforms, badges, weapons,

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Speaker 2: and even homie napalm. There were also more than thirty guns,

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Speaker 2: but there was no weapon matching the one that shot

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Speaker 2: the victims. And there was still one question to be answered.

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Speaker 2: If the suspect jumped into the back seat to speed

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Speaker 2: away from the crime scene, who was driving?

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Speaker 1: So that bit the white sedan, the jumping into the

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Speaker 1: backseat of a car and speeding away, somebody had to

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Speaker 1: be driving. Man, And then this an acquaintance on Eric

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Speaker 1: Williams said a few months before he had been asked

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Speaker 1: to rent a garage in his name. In that garage,

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Speaker 1: they find a white sedan and now they're onto it.

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Speaker 1: Think Chevy Avalanche in the Rex Huerman case, remember the

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Speaker 1: Long Island serial killer suspect. Chevy Avalanches haven't been made

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Speaker 1: since twenty thirteen. So these women were meeting up with

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Speaker 1: a guy in a Chevy Avalanche. What does he have

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Speaker 1: partly down in front of his house? A Chevy Avalanche. Hello,

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Speaker 1: now you've got a white sedan speeding away from the

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Speaker 1: McClellan's home. And now you find a white sedan in

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Speaker 1: a garage with police uniforms, badges. Where are they getting

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Speaker 1: that police uniforms? And I've got one badge, the badge

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Speaker 1: I was given when I was sworn in an assistant

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Speaker 1: district attorney, police uniforms, badges, weapons, homemade napalm? Phil Waters,

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Speaker 1: Why would anybody have homemade napalm? I haven't heard that

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Speaker 1: since we talked about Vietnam.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, exactly. I can't imagine other than this is a person,

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Speaker 8: you know, the badges and so forth. I'm not that

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Speaker 8: that surprised me. And some of that. I think he

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Speaker 8: had body armor and some other law enforcement related equipment

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Speaker 8: in there. And I don't find that terribly strange.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Michelle Dupree, What the hey is napalm? Explain? And

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Speaker 1: a nutshell? I nutshell name.

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Speaker 4: Palm is a very powerful explosive. It is used mostly

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Speaker 4: by the military. You can make it at home if

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Speaker 4: you know the recipe, but it is very devastating.

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Speaker 1: What does it do to you? If it gets on

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Speaker 1: your body or your eyes, it.

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Speaker 4: Actually burns, It burns off the skin, it burns off,

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Speaker 4: it can basically it can basically kill you.

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Speaker 1: What I associate with napalm is the napalm girl that

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Speaker 1: horrible and iconic photo of a nine year old girl

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Speaker 1: running away after a napalm bomb struck her village all

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Speaker 1: the way back in gene of nineteen seventy two. Fifty

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Speaker 1: years later, she had her final round of treatment for

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Speaker 1: pain and scars she suffered that day, Phil Waters, I

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Speaker 1: heard you saying something about nay. Palm is known as.

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Speaker 8: What jelly gasoline. It's either petrol or diesel, and when

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Speaker 8: the mixture is put and applied, it sticks to the

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Speaker 8: skin and the purpose of it, the jelly part of

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Speaker 8: it is to stick to the skin and it burns

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Speaker 8: all the way to the bone.

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Speaker 10: So it's a devastating So who in the hay would

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Speaker 10: have homemade napalm in a storage unit or a rented spot?

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Speaker 1: So now we know a name, Eric Williams. Who's that Listen?

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Speaker 2: Eric Williams seemed to be the all American boy. He

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Speaker 2: grew up in azl, Texas. He was a boy scout,

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Speaker 2: played in a band, and graduated from Texas Christian University,

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Speaker 2: where he was in the Reserves Officers Training Corps ROTC.

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Speaker 2: He met and married Kim. She was raised in Dallas,

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Speaker 2: did college coursework at the Southern Methodist University and at

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Speaker 2: the University of Texas at Arlington. They were a couple

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Speaker 2: for more than fifteen years.

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Speaker 1: Sounds like the all American Golden Boy, but then things

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Speaker 1: went sideways. Listen.

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Speaker 11: Eric Williams studied and passed the bar. He works as

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Speaker 11: a lawyer for the Kaufman City Court Department and Justice

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Speaker 11: of the Piece for Kaufman County. That is until he

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Speaker 11: was caught on surveillance cameras stealing three computer monitors with

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Speaker 11: a value around six hundred dollars. His rest takes place

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Speaker 11: in his office as a public servant. He is charged

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Speaker 11: with a felony, handcuffed and marched down in front of

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Speaker 11: his coworkers. Williams claims it's all a misunderstanding. He says

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Speaker 11: he bypasses standard ordering protocol, but says the monitors were

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Speaker 11: for office use, not personal. But police find one of

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Speaker 11: the monitors stashed in his truck.

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Speaker 1: Okay, wait, I'm not understanding what happened. Judge early whiley

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Speaker 1: joining us out of Texas and author of an incredible book,

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Speaker 1: Target on My Back, A Prosecutor's terrifying Tale of life

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Speaker 1: on a hit list, tell me about these monitors there?

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Speaker 9: Okay, there were computer monitors that were stored in an

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Speaker 9: area at the courthouse that the Justice of the Peace

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Speaker 9: worked at. And like the rest of us that work

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Speaker 9: in any company or the government, when you want new equipment,

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Speaker 9: you know, there's a whole process. I just don't go, oh,

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Speaker 9: let me grab some of those and I'll take those home.

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Speaker 9: And I don't do that in the you know, after

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Speaker 9: hours without getting whatever you would call it a requisition

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Speaker 9: order something in writing. I mean, this is government county

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Speaker 9: property and our tax dollars. So the value is more

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Speaker 9: than six hundred. It was over fifteen hundred because it

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Speaker 9: was a third degree felony at the time in Texas

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Speaker 9: ten years ago, and so he took the monitors that

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Speaker 9: not the irony was there had been missing items before,

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Speaker 9: and then then sheriffs set up monitors cameras so that

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Speaker 9: they could see who was taking the items. Unfortunately, I

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Speaker 9: believe they thought it was the cleaning crew that was

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Speaker 9: taken in after hours.

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Speaker 4: And what do they.

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Speaker 9: Find the it the morning when they right after they

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Speaker 9: had placed the camera, they actually find out that the

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Speaker 9: JP with there's a picture that a lot of people

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Speaker 9: have seen on camera of him, a grainy picture walking

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Speaker 9: around after hours secreting items where he didn't know the

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Speaker 9: new cameras were posted, and so he was caught on

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Speaker 9: videos stealing county equipment after hours. And yet he said,

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Speaker 9: because when you're someone like the murderer, you think you

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Speaker 9: can do no wrong. So if you want computers, you

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Speaker 9: just take them. If you are a JP, you can

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Speaker 9: take what you want, set it up the way you want.

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Speaker 9: And if somebody accuses you of something, don't believe you're

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Speaker 9: lion eyes. That was who he.

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Speaker 1: Was, Justice of the piece. And to think this is

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Speaker 1: all about three computer monitors, Well, how do these victims

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Speaker 1: Mark hassee Cynthia McClellan, Mike McClellan fit into Eric Williams

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Speaker 1: swiping monitors? And when she says JP, Justice of the Peace,

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Speaker 1: you think, right, why would he steal computer monitors? But

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Speaker 1: that's not the end of the story. Listen.

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Speaker 7: The prosecutor in William's case, Assistant District Attorney Mark Hoss,

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Speaker 7: offers him a deal plead guilty to misdemeanor and abuse

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Speaker 7: of office. Williams would have to resign as Justice of

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Speaker 7: the Peace, but he would be allowed to keep his

433
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:43,800
Speaker 7: law license. Williams counters with an offer to make restitution

434
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:48,120
Speaker 7: but not admit guilt. The District attorney's office refuses. If

435
00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:50,879
Speaker 7: Williams is found guilty of a felony, he loses his

436
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 7: law license, his job, benefits everything. Eric Williams decides to

437
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 7: fight the charges, but before his trial starts, more charges

438
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:02,080
Speaker 7: are brought against william for supplies he bought and built

439
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 7: to the law library he manages. None of the supplies

440
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:07,919
Speaker 7: and equipment he bought were found in the office. The

441
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:11,639
Speaker 7: jury deliberates four hours in William's theft trial and delivers

442
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,920
Speaker 7: a guilty verdict. Instead of being sentenced to jail, Williams

443
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:16,640
Speaker 7: is placed on two years probation.

444
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 1: So that is how the whole thing started. Hayden Sparks.

445
00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 1: What Hayden Sparks is joining me senior investigative reporter for

446
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 1: the Texan. So this all starts over three computer monitors

447
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:36,160
Speaker 1: that he swipes, or he's caught swiping. Maybe he swiped

448
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:41,640
Speaker 1: other stuff, but he gets prosecuted for stealing them. He

449
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:45,680
Speaker 1: even takes it to a jury trial, he's put on probation.

450
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 1: Does he lose his position? Hayden Sparks.

451
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 3: I believe he was suspended and it is astonishing that

452
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:58,560
Speaker 3: all of this started with something as trivial as computer.

453
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:02,480
Speaker 1: Monitors trying to figure out O all this goes down

454
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:20,280
Speaker 1: over theft in the courthouse Time Stories with Nancy Grace

455
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 1: to judge Early Wiley joining us, author of Target on

456
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 1: My Back, A prosecutor's terrifying tale of life on a

457
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:34,640
Speaker 1: hit list. So tell me he insisted on taking it

458
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,560
Speaker 1: to a jury trial? Did he lose his position as

459
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 1: just as the peace.

460
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 9: He did the Texas Judicial Conduct Commission. I believe neck

461
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:50,400
Speaker 9: quickly once there was a conviction, because obviously he appealed

462
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 9: that conviction, and there's a timeline there that we would

463
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 9: have to go back and recall, because shortly after that appeal,

464
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 9: I think it's when the murder start. That's not what

465
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 9: you specifically ask me. You specifically ask me. Did the

466
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 9: commission suspend him? Yes, and they removed him.

467
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 1: Oh so it's not just over getting the probation. He loses,

468
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 1: Karen Starr, you're the shrink. He loses the trappings of

469
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 1: being a judge. That's a lot.

470
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 6: Well, But Nancy, if you are someone who's a psychopath

471
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 6: and someone does that to you, something like that happens

472
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 6: to you and you lose your identity, you lose everything

473
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:40,360
Speaker 6: that all the perks that's gone along with that, you

474
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:45,440
Speaker 6: are going to be insanely angry and want revenge. That's

475
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 6: the kind of thing that happens to a person who

476
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 6: is not normal, who doesn't care about the consequences of

477
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 6: his actions.

478
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 1: Let me ask the judge, judge early whiley, it's not

479
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 1: just getting probation. It's not just the cost of the trial.

480
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:08,960
Speaker 12: It's losing your position, your position as JP as judge,

481
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 12: respected of the community, special seats, preferential treatment.

482
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:18,760
Speaker 1: That's losing your identity for a lot of judges or prosecutors.

483
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:23,400
Speaker 9: Nancy, you're spot on, and I think the doctor's right.

484
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 9: For a person that has the mindset that they can

485
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:38,440
Speaker 9: they're ever powerful and whatever they do, they can do

486
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:43,280
Speaker 9: whatever they want to do. That's what he thought. For

487
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 9: those that worked with Eric, you didn't always see that

488
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 9: side of him, because you've got to remember he was

489
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:53,960
Speaker 9: part of us. This is from the inside. But there's

490
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 9: that other piece, like you said, just computer equipment, no

491
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:04,720
Speaker 9: losing his position, and the fact that his colleagues are

492
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 9: the ones that said, you know, the communities, it's not

493
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 9: going to let an unelected official take this equipment.

494
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 1: No way, no way, you know how you're up on

495
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 1: a pedestal as a judge Trump and when you do

496
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:21,280
Speaker 1: something that's the price of being a judge or a prosecutor.

497
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:24,200
Speaker 1: People look at you and if you screw up, oh,

498
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:29,120
Speaker 1: you become You become the escapegoat, You become the trophy.

499
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:32,360
Speaker 1: You will not get away with it once people are

500
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:34,960
Speaker 1: onto you because you're held to a higher standard, and

501
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:39,040
Speaker 1: you should be. You're a passing judgment. You're judging other people,

502
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:44,960
Speaker 1: so you darn well better be above reproach. So how

503
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:48,680
Speaker 1: are these people connected? Listen to Nicole partner in our

504
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:49,320
Speaker 1: cut six.

505
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:53,200
Speaker 7: Mark Coss and Mike mcleland acted as prosecutors in Eric

506
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 7: Williams case, which put him on police radar. When officers

507
00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 7: checked his Internet search history, they found that Williams I'd

508
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:04,240
Speaker 7: been actively searching for information on Mark Hoss and Mike mcleland.

509
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,719
Speaker 7: Documents were found on a white Sedan issued in a

510
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 7: false name, and the login and password for an account

511
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 7: which had been leaving anonymous messages for police about the

512
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 7: murders was found, but there was not enough evidence to

513
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:18,480
Speaker 7: charge him with the murders.

514
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 1: Judge Wilie, how did you end up on a hit list?

515
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 9: Nancy. I had dealt with Eric before he was a

516
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 9: Justice of the peace. When he was in private practice

517
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 9: as a defense attorney. Eric did counting work doing child

518
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:43,720
Speaker 9: protective services attorney at Lytam representing children. Hit all the

519
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:46,640
Speaker 9: trappings of this guy. That was great, that did the

520
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:50,440
Speaker 9: work for the children. But what we found out later,

521
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:54,480
Speaker 9: and I was asked by the administrative judge to check

522
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 9: in to an issue, was that there was some overbilling

523
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 9: that the auditor when they crossed checked the billing that

524
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 9: was being turned in by some attorneys, that it didn't

525
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 9: add up. So my work in Dallas as a former

526
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:17,359
Speaker 9: prosecutor was to do some CPS work, which is trial

527
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 9: protective services work involving children that are abused and neglected.

528
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:23,399
Speaker 9: So I was familiar with the time it would take,

529
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:26,200
Speaker 9: and so what I did is I took that task on.

530
00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:30,880
Speaker 9: An administrative judge asked, it's quite simple, Frankly, my coordinator.

531
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:34,799
Speaker 9: We pulled random files from several different attorneys, and of

532
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:38,600
Speaker 9: course we pulled the docket sheets where the judge said

533
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 9: how long the hearings were, what the records were. It

534
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:44,839
Speaker 9: was an easy crosscheck. And what we found over and

535
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 9: over again was that Eric Williams was stealing money from

536
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:52,680
Speaker 9: the county and over billing. So him, along with a

537
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:56,319
Speaker 9: few other attorneys I don't know, I thought because I.

538
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:56,880
Speaker 2: Was a judge.

539
00:34:57,280 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 9: I brought them into my office, spoke to them individually

540
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:03,919
Speaker 9: and said, this is what we've determined, and I want

541
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:07,880
Speaker 9: you to stop. This is counting money. This is your warning.

542
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:11,759
Speaker 9: I'm not referring this to the DA's office, but this

543
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:14,200
Speaker 9: is something that I can see and I'm not going

544
00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:17,759
Speaker 9: to have it. I will honestly tell you I never

545
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 9: thought any more about that, because that's what you do.

546
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:26,920
Speaker 9: And if a judge calls you into their chambers and

547
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:30,399
Speaker 9: they set you down, you take it. The other two

548
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:35,120
Speaker 9: attorneys were apologetic. They told me it was their mistake,

549
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:39,120
Speaker 9: and I said, of course, no problem. I can't wait

550
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:42,400
Speaker 9: to continue to work with you. Eric Williams denied that

551
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:46,480
Speaker 9: he did it, but okay, that's fine. He left. He

552
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:48,880
Speaker 9: came back later told my coordinator, which is like the

553
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:53,400
Speaker 9: court secretary, you take me off that whill remember the

554
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:54,840
Speaker 9: guy that wants to help kids.

555
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:57,560
Speaker 1: He didn't want to do the work anymore because you

556
00:35:57,560 --> 00:35:58,279
Speaker 1: busted him.

557
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:01,600
Speaker 9: Yes on, my secondary teld me that I go. I

558
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:04,600
Speaker 9: guess he never took an economics course call supplying to man,

559
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:06,279
Speaker 9: I'll just call attorneys and asked, I.

560
00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 1: Builded this work. Yeah, I mean in every courtroom, the

561
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:13,520
Speaker 1: court where you're having plea arrangments, there are a pews

562
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:18,280
Speaker 1: full of lawyers who want appointed cases where a person

563
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:24,160
Speaker 1: doesn't have a lawyer and the public defender's office is inundated,

564
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:30,040
Speaker 1: and you find a list of good lawyers that can

565
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 1: take appointed cases for people that don't have lawyers. So yeah,

566
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:37,360
Speaker 1: if one falls out, there's one, there's ten in line

567
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 1: for that appointed case. But how did you find out

568
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:44,280
Speaker 1: you were actually on a hit list for murder?

569
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:48,960
Speaker 9: I found out because the special prosecutor in the case.

570
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:53,279
Speaker 9: Once the case began, our office recused because then I

571
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:58,319
Speaker 9: was the elected DA. I was told by him. He

572
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:01,560
Speaker 9: came into my office, or Ski, one of the special prosecutors,

573
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:03,600
Speaker 9: and said to me to sit down. He wanted to

574
00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:07,680
Speaker 9: tell me something, and they were preparing the case. By

575
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:10,200
Speaker 9: this time, Kim Williams had become a witness for the

576
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 9: state and she shared with them that it was Eric's opinion,

577
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:20,000
Speaker 9: and she shared that but for me taking that work

578
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:24,280
Speaker 9: away from him, he wouldn't have been in the financial problem.

579
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:26,720
Speaker 9: But they had been fortunate enough for him to become

580
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:29,479
Speaker 9: a JP as a result of that, and for Eric,

581
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:34,600
Speaker 9: my calling him out was the beginning of the end

582
00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:38,319
Speaker 9: of his successful career. Of course, total responsibility shift for

583
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 9: his conduct. And then the JP business happened with the

584
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:46,240
Speaker 9: computer saft and then that's how this list got created,

585
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 9: and there were others.

586
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:49,720
Speaker 1: What went through your mind when you realize this guy,

587
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 1: a judge, a justice of the peace, had you on

588
00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:55,760
Speaker 1: a hit list for murder.

589
00:37:55,360 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 9: And someone I knew, Okay, I thought, my god, you know.

590
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:05,160
Speaker 9: And it's different because, as you guys have said, you've

591
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 9: had threats, but you've actually seen and know this guy's

592
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:13,319
Speaker 9: kill people. By this time, he was in custody, but

593
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:16,560
Speaker 9: so many people. When I was appointed to be the

594
00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 9: elected when Mike was killed the year before I took

595
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:21,720
Speaker 9: that job.

596
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:23,280
Speaker 8: When there we didn't.

597
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:27,040
Speaker 9: Have a suspect in custody, and so in my mind's eye,

598
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:31,959
Speaker 9: I mean, I really knew at that point I could

599
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:34,239
Speaker 9: have been killed. My children who were home with me

600
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:37,560
Speaker 9: then could have been killed. They're adults now, and so

601
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:42,080
Speaker 9: it is chilling. You do things and you don't even

602
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:45,160
Speaker 9: think about it. Sometimes because I took the job, I

603
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:48,080
Speaker 9: was a judge, I had a different trajectory. I took

604
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:50,120
Speaker 9: that job because I was mad, because I grew up

605
00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:51,759
Speaker 9: in Coffin. I people weren't just going to kill people

606
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:54,600
Speaker 9: in Kaufman. I mean, I'm not going to sit by

607
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 9: and let that happen. So I just thought, Wow.

608
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:01,440
Speaker 1: You know another thing, Judge that gives me real insight

609
00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:07,439
Speaker 1: to this judge Eric Williams mind is that once he's

610
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:13,480
Speaker 1: finally convicted on these murders, he's filed so many appeals.

611
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 1: One claimed his quote brain was broken and that he

612
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:22,160
Speaker 1: needed an MRI that he didn't get for his first trial.

613
00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:27,399
Speaker 1: But now that was denied by Judge Mike Snipes. Now

614
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:30,160
Speaker 1: take a list an hour cut eleven. His latest attempt

615
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 1: at a new trial. I hope you're sitting down listen.

616
00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 11: In his latest attempt to get a new death penalty trial,

617
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:38,280
Speaker 11: attorneys for Eric Williams claim they didn't have enough time

618
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:40,400
Speaker 11: to prepare for the trial that led to his conviction.

619
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:43,440
Speaker 11: The Daily Morning News reports that Williams attorneys claim in

620
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 11: a one hundred and sixty nine page filing that there

621
00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:48,520
Speaker 11: was so much evidence that they didn't have enough time

622
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:51,480
Speaker 11: to review and prepare for trial. The attorneys also claimed

623
00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:54,400
Speaker 11: that Williams was tried before a bias judge and that

624
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:57,680
Speaker 11: having his trial in Rockwell County rather than Kaufman County

625
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 11: had no effect on providing him with a fair trial.

626
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:01,799
Speaker 1: You know what, when I hear I didn't have enough

627
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:04,880
Speaker 1: time to prepare for trial, I say something along the

628
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:08,799
Speaker 1: lines of you started. You should have started preparing for

629
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:11,600
Speaker 1: trial when you pull that trigger.

630
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:13,160
Speaker 9: I like that line.

631
00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:17,120
Speaker 1: Like that, Yeah, feel free to use it. The moment

632
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:20,520
Speaker 1: you pull that trigger, you should have started preparing for

633
00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:25,160
Speaker 1: your trial and your a death penalty sentence. Somehow he

634
00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:27,440
Speaker 1: managed to rope his wife into it. In case you're

635
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:32,040
Speaker 1: wondering who the getaway driver was. If you have information

636
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:37,840
Speaker 1: on a judge turned killer, Eric Williams and his wife,

637
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:44,600
Speaker 1: Kim Williams, dial nine seven to two nine three two

638
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:49,440
Speaker 1: three zero nine four. Do I think his case is

639
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:51,680
Speaker 1: going to get reverse? No? Do I think he's going

640
00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:52,719
Speaker 1: to get the death penalty?

641
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:53,120
Speaker 4: Yes?

642
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:56,759
Speaker 1: I do, But stranger things have happened. And if you

643
00:40:56,840 --> 00:41:00,960
Speaker 1: have information, we need your help because when this comes

644
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:03,759
Speaker 1: to a new trial, if it ever does, we want

645
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:08,680
Speaker 1: to be locked and loaded. We wait as just as

646
00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:10,439
Speaker 1: sun foughts. Good by, send