Speaker 1: This is a pre paid call from an inmate at
Speaker 1: a Florida Department of Corrections institution. To accept this call,
Speaker 1: press zero to refuse this call, Hang up or press.
Speaker 2: Thank you for using Global Telling.
Speaker 3: Hi, Leo, how are you.
Speaker 4: I'm doing well, Gilbert, how are you.
Speaker 2: I'm going to add Kelsey to the call, so just
Speaker 2: hang on a second. Hey, Hey, I'm merging the calls. Okay,
Speaker 2: I think we're set. It's been about four months since
Speaker 2: the release of Bone Valley's final episode.
Speaker 3: But I shouldn't say final because this story is far
Speaker 3: from over.
Speaker 2: The book I'm supposed to be writing, well, I just
Speaker 2: keep putting it off instead. I'm still working on this case.
Speaker 2: I'm constantly in touch with Leo's defense team, which now
Speaker 2: officially includes the former judge Scott Cupp. I'm speaking with
Speaker 2: journalists and podcast hosts, as well as lawyers and listeners
Speaker 2: who ask me how they can help support Leo. I've
Speaker 2: even been corresponding with Jeremy Scott, who is still in
Speaker 2: solitary confinement and still eager to share more of his
Speaker 2: story with me.
Speaker 3: But more on that another time.
Speaker 2: Because this episode is about Leo. Leo calls me a
Speaker 2: few times a week. For months now, he's been sharing
Speaker 2: stories about how his life has changed since the release
Speaker 2: of Bone Valley. He still hasn't been able to listen
Speaker 2: to the show in full, but he's heard bits and
Speaker 2: pieces here and there. Chrissy and other members of his
Speaker 2: family have played parts of episodes for him over the phone,
Speaker 2: and he's seen partial transcripts of episodes. But for the
Speaker 2: most part, Leo's understanding of Bone Valley has been through
Speaker 2: the interactions he's had with corrections officers and prison contractors,
Speaker 2: the family members of other inmates who approach him in
Speaker 2: the visitation park, and the many, many letters he's received
Speaker 2: from listeners. And he wants to share some of these
Speaker 2: stories and what it's meant to him with you.
Speaker 1: You know, when this when this story was first being
Speaker 1: put together, and when the podcast first aired, and everything
Speaker 1: I think you even had had told me you were
Speaker 1: trying to prepare me for the the response that I
Speaker 1: would get. And it was really strange because the first
Speaker 1: couple of months after the podcast was was was put out,
Speaker 1: I didn't I didn't get a single email from anybody,
Speaker 1: and so I thought, well, you know, maybe I'm too old,
Speaker 1: Maybe you know it's not that interesting to talk to me,
Speaker 1: and and and just all of a sudden, I don't
Speaker 1: I don't think it was like an episode. The final
Speaker 1: episode came out was it was nine, and I think
Speaker 1: the ninth one really set people off. And then all
Speaker 1: of a sudden, I was getting emails every single day,
Speaker 1: thirty forty emails a day from all not just in
Speaker 1: the United States, but from Canada, Australia, from Argentina, from Ireland,
Speaker 1: got a lot from Ireland, got a lot from the UK.
Speaker 1: And these people were just responding to this stuff. And
Speaker 1: I was not.
Speaker 4: Prepared for that at all.
Speaker 1: I mean, and you know, I'm the kind of guy
Speaker 1: that you you I'm pretty sentimental, you know. I don't
Speaker 1: know if I should say that publicly, because you've got
Speaker 1: to be a tough guy in here, right, But I'm
Speaker 1: not really that tough and have a big heart, big
Speaker 1: soft heart. And when people write to me and they
Speaker 1: say I love you, I respond, I love you too.
Speaker 4: What's your name? You know?
Speaker 1: And it's just really really really crazy, and just it's
Speaker 1: it's very very exciting for me. I can't even explain
Speaker 1: how encouraging it is to have people believe in me
Speaker 1: after all these years and to know the truth finally,
Speaker 1: and to respond with the kind of love that has
Speaker 1: been really lacking in my life and in the life
Speaker 1: of my wife, my daughter for so many years. You know,
Speaker 1: we've been doing this thing until you came along, pretty
Speaker 1: much on our own. And I have this kind of
Speaker 1: love and support from so many different parts of the world.
Speaker 1: This was absolutely overwhelming, and I can't say enough so
Speaker 1: how grateful I am for that. It's hard to respond
Speaker 1: to everybody, but if you send a note or something
Speaker 1: with it, I will respond to that, no matter how smaller,
Speaker 1: whatever it is. I try to respond to all of
Speaker 1: them to say thank you at least.
Speaker 2: Leo's ability to respond to all of these messages is
Speaker 2: complicated by the new communication system recently put in place
Speaker 2: by the Department of Corrections. Inmates don't receive physical copies
Speaker 2: of their mail anymore. Instead, letters pass through a processing
Speaker 2: center in Tampa, where they're opened, digitally, scanned, and delivered
Speaker 2: through tablets that the prison provides. That means Leo doesn't
Speaker 2: have the chance to hold the physical, handwritten letters from
Speaker 2: his loved ones and new supporters, and Leo's digital inbox
Speaker 2: only holds two hundred letters at a time anything beyond
Speaker 2: the two hundred most recent items is deleted, and Leo
Speaker 2: doesn't want to miss.
Speaker 1: Any Saying thank you seems to be such an understatement.
Speaker 1: I mean, you just cannot imagine how life changing this
Speaker 1: whole thing has been for me personally. But I'd also
Speaker 1: like to say this, because I've actually thought about this,
Speaker 1: if I could connect with them in any kind of
Speaker 1: real way, I want them to know how much I
Speaker 1: connect with them as they connect to me. At the
Speaker 1: point where we're all ordinary people, and I would imagine that,
Speaker 1: you know, all of us have something that we deal
Speaker 1: with on a daily basis. You know, mine has been
Speaker 1: this prison experience, and there are many things. I got
Speaker 1: a friend right now, it's in the NICEU. He's dealing with,
Speaker 1: you know, a health issue and his family, and we're
Speaker 1: all dealing with things. And I really want them to
Speaker 1: see me as an ordinary person, you know, just like
Speaker 1: thes And the reason why that's so important is because
Speaker 1: if they can see me as an ordinary person, then
Speaker 1: they may be able to see the God that I
Speaker 1: believe in as being extraordinary. Because at the center of
Speaker 1: this story for me is God I serve. And I
Speaker 1: give them all the credit for making this whole thing
Speaker 1: come about bringing all these people together. And that's a
Speaker 1: very important message for me, and it will be the
Speaker 1: center of my message leaving out of here if in
Speaker 1: one night I get the opportunity to go home. I
Speaker 1: really do appreciate this love and support that I've received
Speaker 1: from them and continue to receive from them, and it
Speaker 1: has absolutely changed my life and has given me such
Speaker 1: great strength to continue with this fight.
Speaker 2: Leo has also failed to shift in his interactions, not
Speaker 2: just with people on the outside, but also within the
Speaker 2: prison walls.
Speaker 1: Listen, officers, their job is not to be our friends,
Speaker 1: know and for the most part, most of these very
Speaker 1: professional they they they you know, there's a demarcated line
Speaker 1: between you know, inmates and staff, and that's the nature
Speaker 1: of prison, and you know, and some of them are
Speaker 1: are overally not friendly, so they make sure that line
Speaker 1: is very demarcated.
Speaker 4: And you know, I don't have any issues with that.
Speaker 4: I'm not here to make friends either.
Speaker 1: But there was one in particular, and he has always
Speaker 1: been straight, narrow, and you know, very hard, and he
Speaker 1: had he had heard the podcast and he had approached
Speaker 1: me and said he was listening to it, and his
Speaker 1: whole demeanor, his whole attitude of how he looked at me,
Speaker 1: how he treated me, was totally different than what it
Speaker 1: was prior to that. I mean, I have yet to
Speaker 1: hear anybody that's been opposed to me, or you know,
Speaker 1: even neutral, if they if they listened to the part
Speaker 1: cast that come away, you know, very convinced and angry
Speaker 1: that the system is what it is. There's an officer
Speaker 1: walked by me yesterday and I guess he's new to
Speaker 1: the podcast. He said, Hey, I've been listening to that
Speaker 1: podcast about you. And I said really, because you know,
Speaker 1: I don't really know him really well. But I said
Speaker 1: what you think and he said, I think you didn't
Speaker 1: do it. He just kept going yeah, and uh.
Speaker 4: You know, you get a lot of things like.
Speaker 1: That, you know, the sentiment is pretty strong. I think
Speaker 1: one of the most moving ones for me was it's
Speaker 1: always the moms to get me right. But there was
Speaker 1: this one in particular.
Speaker 4: She didn't know me.
Speaker 1: She asked her son if she could meet me or
Speaker 1: say something to me.
Speaker 4: You know, she's never spoken to you before, so she
Speaker 4: just came up.
Speaker 1: I was holding my youngest grandson, who is you know,
Speaker 1: a serious chick magnet. You know, he's a real cute
Speaker 1: little boy, and I figured she was coming up to
Speaker 1: see him because they all do, and and she was
Speaker 1: coming up with a smile on her face. And when
Speaker 1: she got up to me, she didn't say anything immediately. Know,
Speaker 1: it's kind of an awkward moment. She would just pause
Speaker 1: like she couldn't say and I could see she was
Speaker 1: trying to.
Speaker 4: Gather her thoughts.
Speaker 1: She put her on hand on my shoulder and then
Speaker 1: she said, I'm gonna cry. And then I realized she
Speaker 1: was there to see me. And I gave my grandson
Speaker 1: to him to his mother, and I said, come here,
Speaker 1: and I gave her a big hug and she just
Speaker 1: tugged me and she said, I love you, And it
Speaker 1: just choked me up as well. And she said I
Speaker 1: listened to the podcast, and I said, well, thank you
Speaker 1: for taking the time doing that. She said, I hope,
Speaker 1: I so hope this ends well for you now.
Speaker 4: Of course I thanked her, and that.
Speaker 1: Was just one but the response from anybody who's listened
Speaker 1: to it been incredible.
Speaker 2: But there's another part of this experience that's new to LEO.
Speaker 2: News about Bone Valley has spread throughout the prison population,
Speaker 2: and for the first time, everyone who he's incarcerated with
Speaker 2: seems to know what he's in for.
Speaker 1: It's a little bit of challenge me too, by the way,
Speaker 1: because if you can imagine, we don't live our lives
Speaker 1: and here telling each other why we're here, I mean,
Speaker 1: it wouldn't work out really well for some of these
Speaker 1: guys who you know, made some incredible bad decisions in
Speaker 1: their in their lives and affective lives of others. So
Speaker 1: we don't walk around telling each other about our cases,
Speaker 1: and so it's a little bit unnerving. But when they
Speaker 1: hear the whole sort of one, they hear everything. What
Speaker 1: happens is they can put in a lot of hopes
Speaker 1: in my success because their hope is is that you know,
Speaker 1: when I leave here, I will speak on their behalf
Speaker 1: for people who are in similar situations. And there are
Speaker 1: some there is a lot of good people in here.
Speaker 1: A lot of these guys are just men who've made
Speaker 1: bad mistakes and would never do it again. Now they're
Speaker 1: paying for it with their lives. You know, I live
Speaker 1: here with broken men. They're already broken.
Speaker 4: We're all broken.
Speaker 1: And what we learn is that that's not that's it's
Speaker 1: not a condition that's exclusive to prisoners. These people come
Speaker 1: from the free world. We came in here broken. I'm
Speaker 1: not an advocate for criminality, but i am an advocate
Speaker 1: for redemption, for forgiveness, for restoration, and that being for
Speaker 1: the victims as well. And so you know, it's a
Speaker 1: very naughty situation. But you know, I'm carrying a great
Speaker 1: burden for these guys, so it's not just about me
Speaker 1: with them too.
Speaker 5: Hi, I'm Jason Flamm, CEO and founder of Lava for
Speaker 5: Good podcasts, Home to Bone Valley, Wrongful Conviction, The War
Speaker 5: on Drugs, and many other great podcasts. Today we're asking you,
Speaker 5: our listeners, to take part in the survey. Your feedback
Speaker 5: is going to help inform how we make podcasts in
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Speaker 5: for your support.
Speaker 2: Bone Valley is sponsored by Stand Together. Stand Together is
Speaker 2: a philanthropic community that partners with America's boldest change makers
Speaker 2: to tackle the root causes of our country's biggest problems,
Speaker 2: including the failed war on drugs that has criminalized addiction,
Speaker 2: fueled over incarceration, and shattered communities.
Speaker 3: At eleven years old.
Speaker 2: Scott Strode drank his first beer. At fifteen, Scott went
Speaker 2: to a mental health facility because of suicidal thoughts, where
Speaker 2: he tried cocaine. Like many others who experience addiction, Scott
Speaker 2: was using drugs and alcohol to numb the pain he
Speaker 2: was trying to numb childhood trauma. In his early twenties,
Speaker 2: Scott was invited into a boxing gym by a friend.
Speaker 3: That's where he.
Speaker 2: Discos, however, the healing power of sport and community that
Speaker 2: helped propel him towards sobriety. In two thousand and six,
Speaker 2: Scott founded The Phoenix, a free, sober active community that
Speaker 2: uses the transformative power of sport to help people treat
Speaker 2: and heal from addiction and imagine new possibilities for their
Speaker 2: lives through fitness. The program restores compassion to a system
Speaker 2: that has long relied on locking people up to solve
Speaker 2: the addiction crisis. Scott Strode is one of many entrepreneurs
Speaker 2: partnering with Stand Together to drive solutions in education, healthcare, poverty.
Speaker 3: And criminal justice.
Speaker 2: To learn more, about addiction and the War on Drugs.
Speaker 3: Listen to the War.
Speaker 2: On Drugs podcast on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get
Speaker 2: your podcasts. As the days, weeks, and months pass, there
Speaker 2: are certain dates that reopen unhealed wounds. February twenty fourth
Speaker 2: was the anniversary of Michelle's death, thirty six years since
Speaker 2: she was killed. This anniversary is always a difficult day
Speaker 2: for Leo. I'm just wondering what gets you through these
Speaker 2: dark times?
Speaker 3: You know, is it faith? Is it music? What is
Speaker 3: it that holds you together?
Speaker 1: You know, that's a really really good question, and it's
Speaker 1: a very important answer. The very simple answer is that
Speaker 1: my faith in the God that has got me this
Speaker 1: far is what gets me through each and.
Speaker 4: Every one of those days.
Speaker 1: And it's not just the February twenty fourth day. It's
Speaker 1: her birthday on the summer eight and our wedding day.
Speaker 1: But February's is the worst because of what it represents.
Speaker 1: And this time it was somehow more difficult. I was
Speaker 1: in a very saddened state.
Speaker 4: It was really tough.
Speaker 2: On the day of the anniversary, Leo has sent a
Speaker 2: picture of Michelle's grave. The headstone was a ridge inscribed
Speaker 2: with her married name Michelle Schofield, but after Leo was
Speaker 2: convicted of her murder, the stone was replaced with one
Speaker 2: bearing her maiden name, Michelle Salm.
Speaker 1: My sister had found a picture somewhere and sent it
Speaker 1: to me, and I noticed that my name was taken
Speaker 1: off of the headstrong by her dad. I totally understand
Speaker 1: his sentiment and his feeling, but I didn't deserve that
Speaker 1: dishonor I don't want to, you know, art him in
Speaker 1: any kind of way. It's just it adds to the
Speaker 1: to the feeling of sadness that I had on that day.
Speaker 2: These anniversaries are just part of the stress that Leo
Speaker 2: is dealing with. On top of the pressures of his
Speaker 2: life in prison. He was having trouble sleeping, and all
Speaker 2: of the stress seemed to catch up with him.
Speaker 3: A few days before we spoke.
Speaker 1: I was at work, was working with my boss and
Speaker 1: pushing a tool card and I really didn't have any wanning.
Speaker 1: Apparently my blood pressure was high and somehow my heart
Speaker 1: got out a rhythm and.
Speaker 4: When I felt it.
Speaker 1: Come on, you know, it caused me to hitch my breathing,
Speaker 1: and so I asked my boss to give me a minute.
Speaker 4: I put my head down.
Speaker 1: I was trying to catch my breath and I couldn't
Speaker 1: get that rhythm right, and I ended up falling on
Speaker 1: the ground, apparently. And the only thing that I remember
Speaker 1: about being on the ground, because I was laying there
Speaker 1: and looking up, I had like tunnel vision, and I
Speaker 1: had this sound like it was a jet plane in
Speaker 1: my ears. I was laying there and I could see
Speaker 1: the sky and I couldn't really see anything around me
Speaker 1: except the sky in front of me, and it was
Speaker 1: just a position I was in. It was the clear
Speaker 1: sky and clouds, and it was very, very sublime for
Speaker 1: me because I was seeing a fast expanse without looking
Speaker 1: through a fence or a raisor fire or bars or
Speaker 1: steel doors or you know, you take that from Brandon,
Speaker 1: because you know, we're always looking horizontally here, right, and
Speaker 1: you look up a lot, and so having that.
Speaker 4: View was very surreal for me.
Speaker 1: It was it was very comforting.
Speaker 2: Leo told me that as he was lying there looking
Speaker 2: up at the blue sky and white clouds, there was
Speaker 2: a brief moment when he didn't know where he was.
Speaker 2: He didn't know if he was dead or alive, imprisoned
Speaker 2: or free, And.
Speaker 1: Wow, that was pretty great for me, and that's the
Speaker 1: only thing I remember about being on the Brown.
Speaker 3: Have you been able to listen to that final episode?
Speaker 4: Now?
Speaker 1: Unfortunately I don't get too. I mean, I've heard some
Speaker 1: of it over the phone with Christy Sharonck with me,
Speaker 1: and I've heard thoughts of it, and you know, I
Speaker 1: know some of the things that it was about.
Speaker 2: We told Leo some of what we learned from our
Speaker 2: interview with Jeremy Scott, just bits and pieces. It's hard
Speaker 2: for Leo to hear these details, but through family, Leo
Speaker 2: was able to hear some more. And there was one
Speaker 2: part that really stuck with him, Jeremy's insistence that he
Speaker 2: told the prosecutor John Aguero all the way back in
Speaker 2: two thousand and five that he was responsible for Michelle's murder.
Speaker 2: This was a full decade before Jeremy confessed over the
Speaker 2: phone to Leo's defense attorney.
Speaker 1: That is one segment of it that I actually did
Speaker 1: get to hear that they had played for me over
Speaker 1: the phone. And I'm going to tell you my initial
Speaker 1: reaction at that moment, because I didn't know that until then.
Speaker 4: I was very angry.
Speaker 1: I was very.
Speaker 4: Angry because it became obvious to me that.
Speaker 1: My life, my wife's life, my wife today, Chrissy Ashley,
Speaker 1: my family, Michelle, her family, none of that.
Speaker 4: Mattered to that man.
Speaker 1: And had he done the right thing at that point,
Speaker 1: I'd have been willing to stand there and shake his
Speaker 1: hand and say, you know, we move on from this.
Speaker 1: Just just do the right thing, because anybody can make
Speaker 1: a mistake. And I've never been vindictive about that. I've
Speaker 1: never been bitter about it. I'm still not bitter about it.
Speaker 1: But at that moment, I was extremely angry because he
Speaker 1: didn't do the right thing. He covered it up, and
Speaker 1: I went years longer trying to fight this case and
Speaker 1: lost at these appeals, and so it was very It
Speaker 1: was very devastating for me. And ironically enough, I was
Speaker 1: more angry with John Girl than I was with Jeremy.
Speaker 1: I think Jeremy was was more just at that point
Speaker 1: than he was than Guirrel was. I've since, by the
Speaker 1: way I've had I've had to let that go to
Speaker 1: John Guerrero is dead. If I can just say this
Speaker 1: really quick about mister gurrel Uh. He was always like
Speaker 1: a nemesis for me for a little while. I think
Speaker 1: I probably was for him as well.
Speaker 2: Leo told me about one time decades ago at a
Speaker 2: post conviction hearing when he spotted John Aguero in the courtroom.
Speaker 1: And mister Gurrel stood up and shook my lawyer's hand
Speaker 1: and read it him. He looked at me and he
Speaker 1: asked me how I was doing, and he was as
Speaker 1: sincereous you could be as asking that. I mean, he
Speaker 1: was cordial to me, and I think I think for
Speaker 1: me the years after that, he became somebody I really
Speaker 1: wanted to prove this case too. You know, it wasn't
Speaker 1: somebody I hated. I've never hated John Guirrew.
Speaker 4: I believe that.
Speaker 1: We need UH prosecutors. Unfortunately, we need the judiciary, we
Speaker 1: need the DC.
Speaker 4: We need these.
Speaker 1: Systems in place to protect people and to hold the
Speaker 1: other this accountable who commit violence crime. But for me,
Speaker 1: mister Guirrel represented somebody I wanted to prove this case
Speaker 1: or I really wanted to prove this case, and I felt
Speaker 1: like someday it would happen and we would both be
Speaker 1: all right with it. And then when I heard he
Speaker 1: died in Morocco, that was that was kind of sad
Speaker 1: for me because part of the goal is not going
Speaker 1: to be able to be fulfilled. But you know, now
Speaker 1: I have Victoria Avalon and Brian Haas, and you know
Speaker 1: I want to prove to them too, but they don't
Speaker 1: have the history with me that I had with mister Guirrel.
Speaker 1: And so for me, it's never been about bitterness and
Speaker 1: never been about hatred and proving somebody wrong. It was
Speaker 1: just about proving me innocent, if that makes any sense.
Speaker 2: Leo's legal team is still debating strategies to legally prove
Speaker 2: Leo's innocence, but in the meantime, Leo has another opportunity
Speaker 2: for parole. We'll go into that process in more depth
Speaker 2: in another follow up episode once we have more details,
Speaker 2: but for now, what we do know is that on
Speaker 2: March fifteenth, Leo will receive a visit from an investigator
Speaker 2: with the Florida Commission on a fender review. This person
Speaker 2: will show up at Hardy CI and spend some time
Speaker 2: talking to Leo about his record and his hopes for parole.
Speaker 2: The Commission will then promptly set a date for Leo's hearing.
Speaker 2: Leo won't be able to attend that hearing, but his
Speaker 2: attorneys will make their case for his parole, and once
Speaker 2: again the panel of three commissioners will publicly make their.
Speaker 3: Decision, and.
Speaker 1: You know, hopefully that we'll have people there to support
Speaker 1: and we'll make our case.
Speaker 4: You get very very.
Speaker 1: Little time to make your case, and historically the pro
Speaker 1: Commission has not been very favorable to me.
Speaker 2: They could decide to grant him parole so that he
Speaker 2: can eventually be home with his family, but then again,
Speaker 2: he's never apologized for the crime he was convicted of,
Speaker 2: which the state is pointed to as the reason that
Speaker 2: Leo shouldn't be paroled.
Speaker 1: I don't know how you can expect someone to apologize
Speaker 1: for something that they did not do. And that's just
Speaker 1: a fact that I have to deal with because pro
Speaker 1: Commission does you know, I don't think they require it.
Speaker 1: I think they expect it, and you know, and I
Speaker 1: guess at some level they should. I try to understand
Speaker 1: their perspective of it. The thing is, though, is that
Speaker 1: who qualifies that? I mean, why is it that somebody
Speaker 1: can go up before them and say I'm really sorry
Speaker 1: and somehow that makes them more amicable to making a
Speaker 1: decision to parole them than someone who has stood on
Speaker 1: his innocence for the entire time from the trial, all
Speaker 1: the way through thirty five years, I gained nothing by
Speaker 1: standing on a claim of innocence unless I actually possess it.
Speaker 1: Because most of the inmates that I have that talk
Speaker 1: to me today, because they come from the point of
Speaker 1: view of being guilty, and they jump at a chance
Speaker 1: to get out of prison. They think it's because of
Speaker 1: my pride that I won't just say I'm sorry for
Speaker 1: the pro you know, just say it. What do you care?
Speaker 1: What do they you know? What does it matter? Just
Speaker 1: say you're sorry and proll out. Well, you know, I
Speaker 1: understand their perspective, I really do. But I'm not guilty.
Speaker 1: And it's not just about me. It's about my wife,
Speaker 1: and she deserves better justice than this. I know that
Speaker 1: that's not a sentiment that's felt across the board and
Speaker 1: the people who have opposed me case, but it is
Speaker 1: an actual fact. She deserves better than this. She deserves justice.
Speaker 1: She deserves to have the truth come out. She doesn't
Speaker 1: deserve to have her husband falsely accused, convicted and thrown
Speaker 1: away and the real killer go free. She doesn't deserve that.
Speaker 4: She was worthy of real justice.
Speaker 1: And I have to stand on that. And you know
Speaker 1: this is not this is not you know, saying I'm sorry.
Speaker 4: For stealing a candy bar. I didn't steal.
Speaker 1: This is this is standing up for what's right. And
Speaker 1: I simply cannot live with myself labeled as a murderer.
Speaker 1: I just cannot do it.
Speaker 4: I'm not going to do it.
Speaker 1: So, you know, and you would think that after all
Speaker 1: this time, you know, I've had the opportunity to take
Speaker 1: deals to go home. I could have taken a deal
Speaker 1: before a trial even started that would have sent me
Speaker 1: home thirty two years ago, Gilbert thirty two years ago.
Speaker 2: Leo's talking about how, just before he went to trial
Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty nine, the state offered him the opportunity
Speaker 2: to plead guilty to a lesser charge of second degree murder.
Speaker 2: If Leo had taken the deal, there would have been
Speaker 2: no trial and no threat of the death penalty.
Speaker 4: Think about that. So, despite what John A.
Speaker 1: Guirrell tells the jury about you know, how vicious I
Speaker 1: am and all of other stuff, they were willing to
Speaker 1: let me go thirty two years ago without telling the
Speaker 1: jury a single word.
Speaker 4: And that's a fact of the case. It's public record.
Speaker 2: Can you just talk about that briefly, Leo, and what
Speaker 2: that would have meant to you in terms of sentencing.
Speaker 4: Okay, well what.
Speaker 1: That would have meant at that time I was under
Speaker 1: a guideline sentence, and it would have been a twelve
Speaker 1: to seventeen year guideline sentence, And that sounds like a
Speaker 1: lot of time, but it's really not because they they
Speaker 1: wouldn't have been able to give me more than twelve years,
Speaker 1: because they wouldn't have had any reason to aggravate. I
Speaker 1: have no prior felonies, and on twelve years, I got
Speaker 1: a third off automatically, so that's four off of that.
Speaker 4: That leaves eight.
Speaker 1: I got day to day the jail time, that's two
Speaker 1: hundred and sixty two days. It's almost another year, so
Speaker 1: now you're down into seven and then I'm getting twenty
Speaker 1: days a month gain time to this day. That doesn't
Speaker 1: apply to a life sentence, so you're cutting it more
Speaker 1: than in half. So I would not have done more
Speaker 1: than three and a half years on the twelve but
Speaker 1: taking a deal of a second degree, and instead of
Speaker 1: taking that, I faced the death penalty because that's what
Speaker 1: I was facing. Now here's something else in Nates will
Speaker 1: tell you there's nobody and here, nobody in here that
Speaker 1: knows that they were caught guilty in trial facing the
Speaker 1: death penalty, that would not take three and a half years,
Speaker 1: and try to beat the death penalty on a case
Speaker 1: like this. No one would have done that, no one,
Speaker 1: no one in their right mind. And you could call
Speaker 1: me a lot of things back then. You can call
Speaker 1: me a lot of things now, but you cannot call
Speaker 1: me stupid, not stupid. I had told my attorney, and
Speaker 1: I don't care if they offer me five minutes probation
Speaker 1: and they say that I can do it on the
Speaker 1: way to the airport to go back from Massachusetts, I
Speaker 1: am not taking to any deals, and I was scared
Speaker 1: to death. I didn't say.
Speaker 4: That with courage of being brave. I said it out.
Speaker 1: Of simple fact that I cannot.
Speaker 4: There's no choice in this for me.
Speaker 2: Still, I could understand if Leo felt pressure to apologize,
Speaker 2: to feign remorse so that he'd be granted parole. But
Speaker 2: for Leo this has never been an option. To apologize
Speaker 2: for killing his wife would mean he'd be lying, and
Speaker 2: that would eliminate the possibility of real justice for Michelle,
Speaker 2: and that he would never do, not in nineteen eighty
Speaker 2: seven and not today, not even for the chance to
Speaker 2: be released tomorrow.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 1: It's this dangling parrot that's before me always, and I
Speaker 1: want it.
Speaker 4: I want it really bad.
Speaker 1: I want to go home. I want to take care
Speaker 1: of my wife and kid. I want to I want
Speaker 1: to take care of my life. I want to go
Speaker 1: out there and be able to live a little bit,
Speaker 1: you know, and make my mistakes and do my good
Speaker 1: deeds and all that stuff.
Speaker 4: And I want that really bad.
Speaker 1: But I don't want it enough that I'm going to
Speaker 1: sacrifice who I am as a person, in the integrity
Speaker 1: that I have. And it's not because I'm a saint,
Speaker 1: it's not because I'm some great guy. It's simply because
Speaker 1: I did not do it. That's it. There's no other
Speaker 1: reason behind refusing to do those things. I don't want
Speaker 1: to make the Commission angry with me. I don't want
Speaker 1: to fight against Bryan Haws or Jerry Hill or Victoria Avon.
Speaker 1: I don't want to drag them through any you know,
Speaker 1: mud puddles. I have nothing to do with that. I
Speaker 1: don't want anything to do with that. I just cannot
Speaker 1: take the deal. I did not commit the crime.
Speaker 2: I've seen you preach in your sermons and I've seen
Speaker 2: you talk about hope, and I'm just wondering, do you
Speaker 2: have hope right now for this next parole hearing?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I do.
Speaker 4: I have great hope.
Speaker 1: The narrative of my life has been changed, and Michelle's
Speaker 1: truth is now very widely known across the world, and
Speaker 1: knowing that they finally know the truth is everything to
Speaker 1: me because that has to be ninety percent of what
Speaker 1: my mission has always been for thirty five years. Ninety
Speaker 1: percent of my fight has been about getting justice for her.
Speaker 1: Really doesn't matter who in the state acknowledges that or not.
Speaker 1: People are acknowledging it, and that's justice for Michelle.
Speaker 4: Now.
Speaker 1: Now I can rest with that now. The other ten
Speaker 1: percent was hoping that I could somehow get myself back
Speaker 1: home to take care of the family that I'm in
Speaker 1: love with now, and you know, I'm still hopeful for
Speaker 1: that to happen. But the main part of this goal
Speaker 1: that I have is complete. People know in the past
Speaker 1: I haven't had that. So yeah, I do have a.
Speaker 4: Lot of hope.
Speaker 1: And I don't know what the Commission knows.
Speaker 4: I really don't. I don't know them.
Speaker 1: I know, like I understand all that Victoria Avalon knows
Speaker 1: she's been part of this case, and so she knows
Speaker 1: my claim and she knows who I am. And you know,
Speaker 1: I'm not sure what she thinks about it, And even
Speaker 1: more cloudy is what the Commission thinks about But they're
Speaker 1: all human beings, and so this is a chance for
Speaker 1: all of them, all of them to come out. We
Speaker 1: can all come out of this in a really good place.
Speaker 1: We can all come out of this ahead, and it
Speaker 1: will never come back in their face. Victoria Avalon would
Speaker 1: never be embarrassed for coming away saying this wasn't right.
Speaker 1: It'll never come back to her because I.
Speaker 4: Didn't do it.
Speaker 1: I keep saying that. It's just a fact. I'm not
Speaker 1: after money, I'm not after fame. I don't need an
Speaker 1: apology for me. I'm not asking for any of that.
Speaker 1: All I'm asking for is justice with Michelle and my freedom.
Speaker 1: And so, yeah, I have a lot of hope because
Speaker 1: now the story has been told, and it's been told
Speaker 1: in a very very big way, and it's been told
Speaker 1: very comprehensively. So I have a lot of hope because
Speaker 1: I think I think these people who will supporting me
Speaker 1: now are not going to take no for an answer.
Speaker 1: On this, and if the answer becomes no, I think
Speaker 1: a lot of people are going to want to know why.
Speaker 2: If Leo's denied parole in this his fourth attempt, so
Speaker 2: many of you will want to know why. There's a
Speaker 2: level of scrutiny now that the state cannot escape. I
Speaker 2: don't know if there's really a way to make things
Speaker 2: right at this point. In a few months, in June,
Speaker 2: it'll be thirty five years since Leo's known a day
Speaker 2: of freedom. Many of those years were spent in hopeless isolation,
Speaker 2: with Leo pleading for someone, anyone to listen and believe
Speaker 2: that he's an innocent man. Now there are people all
Speaker 2: around the world who have heard his story and believe
Speaker 2: in his innocence, people who are waiting and watching to
Speaker 2: see what happens next, and that is what gives him hope.
Speaker 1: And please make sure to thank all those supporters because
Speaker 1: that means a lot. I really I'm appreciative of the
Speaker 1: opportunity to tell them thank you personally, because that's everything
Speaker 1: to me. They totally have changed my life. I cannot
Speaker 1: say enough. And hopefully we come to a good end
Speaker 1: in the story, and what a celebration that will be,
Speaker 1: you know, it's time.
Speaker 4: I mean, it just is. It's just time.