WEBVTT - Bonus Episode | Leo Speaks 0:00:00.720 --> 0:00:03.680 This is a pre paid call from an inmate at 0:00:03.680 --> 0:00:08.319 a Florida Department of Corrections institution. To accept this call, 0:00:08.480 --> 0:00:13.000 press zero to refuse this call, Hang up or press. 0:00:13.000 --> 0:00:14.840 Thank you for using Global Telling. 0:00:15.640 --> 0:00:16.600 Hi, Leo, how are you. 0:00:17.320 --> 0:00:18.840 I'm doing well, Gilbert, how are you. 0:00:19.400 --> 0:00:21.360 I'm going to add Kelsey to the call, so just 0:00:21.360 --> 0:00:30.240 hang on a second. Hey, Hey, I'm merging the calls. Okay, 0:00:30.280 --> 0:00:37.520 I think we're set. It's been about four months since 0:00:37.560 --> 0:00:40.040 the release of Bone Valley's final episode. 0:00:40.479 --> 0:00:43.120 But I shouldn't say final because this story is far 0:00:43.159 --> 0:00:43.640 from over. 0:00:44.720 --> 0:00:46.680 The book I'm supposed to be writing, well, I just 0:00:46.720 --> 0:00:51.000 keep putting it off instead. I'm still working on this case. 0:00:51.680 --> 0:00:55.000 I'm constantly in touch with Leo's defense team, which now 0:00:55.040 --> 0:00:59.360 officially includes the former judge Scott Cupp. I'm speaking with 0:00:59.440 --> 0:01:03.080 journalists and podcast hosts, as well as lawyers and listeners 0:01:03.360 --> 0:01:06.720 who ask me how they can help support Leo. I've 0:01:06.760 --> 0:01:09.920 even been corresponding with Jeremy Scott, who is still in 0:01:09.959 --> 0:01:13.360 solitary confinement and still eager to share more of his 0:01:13.400 --> 0:01:14.080 story with me. 0:01:14.880 --> 0:01:16.199 But more on that another time. 0:01:16.520 --> 0:01:21.000 Because this episode is about Leo. Leo calls me a 0:01:21.040 --> 0:01:24.000 few times a week. For months now, he's been sharing 0:01:24.040 --> 0:01:26.560 stories about how his life has changed since the release 0:01:26.560 --> 0:01:29.679 of Bone Valley. He still hasn't been able to listen 0:01:29.680 --> 0:01:32.440 to the show in full, but he's heard bits and 0:01:32.440 --> 0:01:36.000 pieces here and there. Chrissy and other members of his 0:01:36.080 --> 0:01:39.839 family have played parts of episodes for him over the phone, 0:01:39.920 --> 0:01:43.720 and he's seen partial transcripts of episodes. But for the 0:01:43.760 --> 0:01:47.400 most part, Leo's understanding of Bone Valley has been through 0:01:47.440 --> 0:01:51.640 the interactions he's had with corrections officers and prison contractors, 0:01:52.040 --> 0:01:54.600 the family members of other inmates who approach him in 0:01:54.640 --> 0:01:57.920 the visitation park, and the many, many letters he's received 0:01:57.920 --> 0:02:01.040 from listeners. And he wants to share some of these 0:02:01.080 --> 0:02:06.880 stories and what it's meant to him with you. 0:02:06.880 --> 0:02:09.639 You know, when this when this story was first being 0:02:09.680 --> 0:02:13.800 put together, and when the podcast first aired, and everything 0:02:14.160 --> 0:02:16.520 I think you even had had told me you were 0:02:16.560 --> 0:02:21.679 trying to prepare me for the the response that I 0:02:21.720 --> 0:02:23.839 would get. And it was really strange because the first 0:02:23.880 --> 0:02:26.839 couple of months after the podcast was was was put out, 0:02:26.880 --> 0:02:29.040 I didn't I didn't get a single email from anybody, 0:02:29.520 --> 0:02:31.680 and so I thought, well, you know, maybe I'm too old, 0:02:31.760 --> 0:02:34.960 Maybe you know it's not that interesting to talk to me, 0:02:35.080 --> 0:02:37.919 and and and just all of a sudden, I don't 0:02:37.960 --> 0:02:41.640 I don't think it was like an episode. The final 0:02:41.720 --> 0:02:44.040 episode came out was it was nine, and I think 0:02:44.160 --> 0:02:47.880 the ninth one really set people off. And then all 0:02:47.880 --> 0:02:52.520 of a sudden, I was getting emails every single day, 0:02:53.760 --> 0:02:56.920 thirty forty emails a day from all not just in 0:02:56.960 --> 0:03:02.919 the United States, but from Canada, Australia, from Argentina, from Ireland, 0:03:03.120 --> 0:03:05.320 got a lot from Ireland, got a lot from the UK. 0:03:05.720 --> 0:03:07.920 And these people were just responding to this stuff. And 0:03:08.080 --> 0:03:08.760 I was not. 0:03:09.080 --> 0:03:10.680 Prepared for that at all. 0:03:10.919 --> 0:03:12.799 I mean, and you know, I'm the kind of guy 0:03:12.800 --> 0:03:16.519 that you you I'm pretty sentimental, you know. I don't 0:03:16.639 --> 0:03:18.520 know if I should say that publicly, because you've got 0:03:18.560 --> 0:03:20.200 to be a tough guy in here, right, But I'm 0:03:20.240 --> 0:03:23.560 not really that tough and have a big heart, big 0:03:23.639 --> 0:03:27.240 soft heart. And when people write to me and they 0:03:27.280 --> 0:03:30.799 say I love you, I respond, I love you too. 0:03:31.000 --> 0:03:32.400 What's your name? You know? 0:03:32.400 --> 0:03:37.600 And it's just really really really crazy, and just it's 0:03:37.720 --> 0:03:40.640 it's very very exciting for me. I can't even explain 0:03:40.720 --> 0:03:44.480 how encouraging it is to have people believe in me 0:03:44.600 --> 0:03:47.960 after all these years and to know the truth finally, 0:03:48.000 --> 0:03:50.640 and to respond with the kind of love that has 0:03:50.720 --> 0:03:54.160 been really lacking in my life and in the life 0:03:54.200 --> 0:03:57.200 of my wife, my daughter for so many years. You know, 0:03:57.240 --> 0:03:59.680 we've been doing this thing until you came along, pretty 0:03:59.760 --> 0:04:03.440 much on our own. And I have this kind of 0:04:03.480 --> 0:04:06.680 love and support from so many different parts of the world. 0:04:06.720 --> 0:04:13.480 This was absolutely overwhelming, and I can't say enough so 0:04:13.640 --> 0:04:17.400 how grateful I am for that. It's hard to respond 0:04:17.400 --> 0:04:20.719 to everybody, but if you send a note or something 0:04:20.760 --> 0:04:23.680 with it, I will respond to that, no matter how smaller, 0:04:24.360 --> 0:04:26.600 whatever it is. I try to respond to all of 0:04:26.600 --> 0:04:27.960 them to say thank you at least. 0:04:29.080 --> 0:04:32.039 Leo's ability to respond to all of these messages is 0:04:32.120 --> 0:04:35.679 complicated by the new communication system recently put in place 0:04:35.720 --> 0:04:39.960 by the Department of Corrections. Inmates don't receive physical copies 0:04:40.000 --> 0:04:44.200 of their mail anymore. Instead, letters pass through a processing 0:04:44.240 --> 0:04:48.279 center in Tampa, where they're opened, digitally, scanned, and delivered 0:04:48.279 --> 0:04:52.679 through tablets that the prison provides. That means Leo doesn't 0:04:52.720 --> 0:04:55.640 have the chance to hold the physical, handwritten letters from 0:04:55.680 --> 0:05:00.159 his loved ones and new supporters, and Leo's digital inbox 0:05:00.200 --> 0:05:03.200 only holds two hundred letters at a time anything beyond 0:05:03.200 --> 0:05:06.440 the two hundred most recent items is deleted, and Leo 0:05:06.520 --> 0:05:07.480 doesn't want to miss. 0:05:07.240 --> 0:05:13.320 Any Saying thank you seems to be such an understatement. 0:05:13.720 --> 0:05:17.200 I mean, you just cannot imagine how life changing this 0:05:17.279 --> 0:05:20.920 whole thing has been for me personally. But I'd also 0:05:21.000 --> 0:05:22.920 like to say this, because I've actually thought about this, 0:05:22.960 --> 0:05:26.320 if I could connect with them in any kind of 0:05:26.480 --> 0:05:30.040 real way, I want them to know how much I 0:05:30.080 --> 0:05:35.359 connect with them as they connect to me. At the 0:05:35.400 --> 0:05:39.560 point where we're all ordinary people, and I would imagine that, 0:05:39.680 --> 0:05:43.000 you know, all of us have something that we deal 0:05:43.040 --> 0:05:45.080 with on a daily basis. You know, mine has been 0:05:45.120 --> 0:05:47.520 this prison experience, and there are many things. I got 0:05:47.560 --> 0:05:49.880 a friend right now, it's in the NICEU. He's dealing with, 0:05:50.400 --> 0:05:54.040 you know, a health issue and his family, and we're 0:05:54.080 --> 0:05:56.520 all dealing with things. And I really want them to 0:05:56.560 --> 0:05:59.800 see me as an ordinary person, you know, just like 0:05:59.800 --> 0:06:03.799 thes And the reason why that's so important is because 0:06:03.800 --> 0:06:06.160 if they can see me as an ordinary person, then 0:06:06.640 --> 0:06:08.400 they may be able to see the God that I 0:06:08.440 --> 0:06:12.719 believe in as being extraordinary. Because at the center of 0:06:12.760 --> 0:06:16.039 this story for me is God I serve. And I 0:06:16.120 --> 0:06:19.120 give them all the credit for making this whole thing 0:06:19.200 --> 0:06:22.599 come about bringing all these people together. And that's a 0:06:22.680 --> 0:06:26.880 very important message for me, and it will be the 0:06:26.880 --> 0:06:29.480 center of my message leaving out of here if in 0:06:29.600 --> 0:06:32.840 one night I get the opportunity to go home. I 0:06:33.000 --> 0:06:37.080 really do appreciate this love and support that I've received 0:06:37.080 --> 0:06:40.720 from them and continue to receive from them, and it 0:06:40.760 --> 0:06:44.520 has absolutely changed my life and has given me such 0:06:44.560 --> 0:06:46.960 great strength to continue with this fight. 0:06:48.640 --> 0:06:51.880 Leo has also failed to shift in his interactions, not 0:06:52.000 --> 0:06:54.880 just with people on the outside, but also within the 0:06:54.880 --> 0:06:55.679 prison walls. 0:06:56.640 --> 0:06:59.640 Listen, officers, their job is not to be our friends, 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:03.560 know and for the most part, most of these very 0:07:03.600 --> 0:07:07.000 professional they they they you know, there's a demarcated line 0:07:07.080 --> 0:07:10.240 between you know, inmates and staff, and that's the nature 0:07:10.280 --> 0:07:14.080 of prison, and you know, and some of them are 0:07:14.160 --> 0:07:20.800 are overally not friendly, so they make sure that line 0:07:20.880 --> 0:07:22.000 is very demarcated. 0:07:22.120 --> 0:07:23.640 And you know, I don't have any issues with that. 0:07:24.080 --> 0:07:25.679 I'm not here to make friends either. 0:07:26.200 --> 0:07:31.320 But there was one in particular, and he has always 0:07:31.360 --> 0:07:35.920 been straight, narrow, and you know, very hard, and he 0:07:35.960 --> 0:07:39.160 had he had heard the podcast and he had approached 0:07:39.200 --> 0:07:41.480 me and said he was listening to it, and his 0:07:41.600 --> 0:07:45.080 whole demeanor, his whole attitude of how he looked at me, 0:07:45.280 --> 0:07:49.440 how he treated me, was totally different than what it 0:07:49.600 --> 0:07:52.520 was prior to that. I mean, I have yet to 0:07:52.560 --> 0:07:56.600 hear anybody that's been opposed to me, or you know, 0:07:57.720 --> 0:07:59.960 even neutral, if they if they listened to the part 0:08:00.160 --> 0:08:04.239 cast that come away, you know, very convinced and angry 0:08:04.280 --> 0:08:07.400 that the system is what it is. There's an officer 0:08:07.440 --> 0:08:09.440 walked by me yesterday and I guess he's new to 0:08:09.520 --> 0:08:12.200 the podcast. He said, Hey, I've been listening to that 0:08:12.280 --> 0:08:15.040 podcast about you. And I said really, because you know, 0:08:15.080 --> 0:08:16.960 I don't really know him really well. But I said 0:08:17.040 --> 0:08:19.360 what you think and he said, I think you didn't 0:08:19.360 --> 0:08:23.520 do it. He just kept going yeah, and uh. 0:08:23.640 --> 0:08:25.040 You know, you get a lot of things like. 0:08:25.000 --> 0:08:28.920 That, you know, the sentiment is pretty strong. I think 0:08:28.960 --> 0:08:31.720 one of the most moving ones for me was it's 0:08:31.760 --> 0:08:34.200 always the moms to get me right. But there was 0:08:34.200 --> 0:08:35.200 this one in particular. 0:08:35.320 --> 0:08:35.920 She didn't know me. 0:08:36.120 --> 0:08:39.320 She asked her son if she could meet me or 0:08:39.600 --> 0:08:40.520 say something to me. 0:08:40.720 --> 0:08:42.640 You know, she's never spoken to you before, so she 0:08:42.720 --> 0:08:43.200 just came up. 0:08:43.240 --> 0:08:46.440 I was holding my youngest grandson, who is you know, 0:08:46.480 --> 0:08:49.400 a serious chick magnet. You know, he's a real cute 0:08:49.400 --> 0:08:52.000 little boy, and I figured she was coming up to 0:08:52.040 --> 0:08:55.320 see him because they all do, and and she was 0:08:55.320 --> 0:08:58.439 coming up with a smile on her face. And when 0:08:58.480 --> 0:09:00.560 she got up to me, she didn't say anything immediately. Know, 0:09:00.559 --> 0:09:02.720 it's kind of an awkward moment. She would just pause 0:09:02.800 --> 0:09:04.320 like she couldn't say and I could see she was 0:09:04.360 --> 0:09:05.720 trying to. 0:09:05.160 --> 0:09:05.880 Gather her thoughts. 0:09:06.000 --> 0:09:08.680 She put her on hand on my shoulder and then 0:09:08.720 --> 0:09:12.680 she said, I'm gonna cry. And then I realized she 0:09:12.760 --> 0:09:15.800 was there to see me. And I gave my grandson 0:09:15.880 --> 0:09:17.600 to him to his mother, and I said, come here, 0:09:17.800 --> 0:09:19.800 and I gave her a big hug and she just 0:09:19.800 --> 0:09:22.319 tugged me and she said, I love you, And it 0:09:22.440 --> 0:09:25.440 just choked me up as well. And she said I 0:09:25.480 --> 0:09:28.440 listened to the podcast, and I said, well, thank you 0:09:28.480 --> 0:09:31.160 for taking the time doing that. She said, I hope, 0:09:31.280 --> 0:09:35.400 I so hope this ends well for you now. 0:09:35.520 --> 0:09:37.160 Of course I thanked her, and that. 0:09:37.280 --> 0:09:40.920 Was just one but the response from anybody who's listened 0:09:40.920 --> 0:09:42.600 to it been incredible. 0:09:44.080 --> 0:09:46.720 But there's another part of this experience that's new to LEO. 0:09:47.520 --> 0:09:51.040 News about Bone Valley has spread throughout the prison population, 0:09:51.360 --> 0:09:55.200 and for the first time, everyone who he's incarcerated with 0:09:55.480 --> 0:09:57.000 seems to know what he's in for. 0:09:58.160 --> 0:10:01.680 It's a little bit of challenge me too, by the way, 0:10:01.720 --> 0:10:04.840 because if you can imagine, we don't live our lives 0:10:04.840 --> 0:10:08.120 and here telling each other why we're here, I mean, 0:10:09.559 --> 0:10:11.600 it wouldn't work out really well for some of these 0:10:11.600 --> 0:10:15.120 guys who you know, made some incredible bad decisions in 0:10:15.160 --> 0:10:17.679 their in their lives and affective lives of others. So 0:10:17.840 --> 0:10:21.000 we don't walk around telling each other about our cases, 0:10:21.040 --> 0:10:24.560 and so it's a little bit unnerving. But when they 0:10:24.600 --> 0:10:26.800 hear the whole sort of one, they hear everything. What 0:10:26.920 --> 0:10:29.640 happens is they can put in a lot of hopes 0:10:30.400 --> 0:10:35.600 in my success because their hope is is that you know, 0:10:35.600 --> 0:10:38.280 when I leave here, I will speak on their behalf 0:10:38.360 --> 0:10:41.680 for people who are in similar situations. And there are 0:10:41.720 --> 0:10:43.480 some there is a lot of good people in here. 0:10:43.640 --> 0:10:46.199 A lot of these guys are just men who've made 0:10:46.800 --> 0:10:49.640 bad mistakes and would never do it again. Now they're 0:10:49.679 --> 0:10:53.160 paying for it with their lives. You know, I live 0:10:53.200 --> 0:10:55.840 here with broken men. They're already broken. 0:10:56.320 --> 0:10:57.120 We're all broken. 0:10:57.240 --> 0:11:00.160 And what we learn is that that's not that's it's 0:11:00.200 --> 0:11:04.800 not a condition that's exclusive to prisoners. These people come 0:11:04.880 --> 0:11:08.440 from the free world. We came in here broken. I'm 0:11:08.440 --> 0:11:11.520 not an advocate for criminality, but i am an advocate 0:11:11.640 --> 0:11:18.440 for redemption, for forgiveness, for restoration, and that being for 0:11:18.679 --> 0:11:22.360 the victims as well. And so you know, it's a 0:11:22.440 --> 0:11:26.680 very naughty situation. But you know, I'm carrying a great 0:11:26.679 --> 0:11:28.800 burden for these guys, so it's not just about me 0:11:29.600 --> 0:11:30.280 with them too. 0:11:40.000 --> 0:11:42.839 Hi, I'm Jason Flamm, CEO and founder of Lava for 0:11:42.920 --> 0:11:46.360 Good podcasts, Home to Bone Valley, Wrongful Conviction, The War 0:11:46.400 --> 0:11:49.880 on Drugs, and many other great podcasts. Today we're asking you, 0:11:50.040 --> 0:11:53.000 our listeners, to take part in the survey. Your feedback 0:11:53.080 --> 0:11:55.920 is going to help inform how we make podcasts in 0:11:55.960 --> 0:11:58.880 the future. Your complete and candid answers will help us 0:11:58.920 --> 0:12:02.520 continue to bring you more insightful and inspiring stories about 0:12:02.600 --> 0:12:05.719 important topics that impact us all. So please go to 0:12:05.800 --> 0:12:10.160 lavafrogod dot com slash survey and participate today. Thank you 0:12:10.320 --> 0:12:11.040 for your support. 0:12:14.400 --> 0:12:18.559 Bone Valley is sponsored by Stand Together. Stand Together is 0:12:18.600 --> 0:12:22.720 a philanthropic community that partners with America's boldest change makers 0:12:22.760 --> 0:12:25.800 to tackle the root causes of our country's biggest problems, 0:12:26.120 --> 0:12:29.720 including the failed war on drugs that has criminalized addiction, 0:12:30.240 --> 0:12:33.599 fueled over incarceration, and shattered communities. 0:12:34.760 --> 0:12:36.080 At eleven years old. 0:12:36.000 --> 0:12:40.040 Scott Strode drank his first beer. At fifteen, Scott went 0:12:40.080 --> 0:12:43.280 to a mental health facility because of suicidal thoughts, where 0:12:43.280 --> 0:12:48.000 he tried cocaine. Like many others who experience addiction, Scott 0:12:48.040 --> 0:12:51.320 was using drugs and alcohol to numb the pain he 0:12:51.440 --> 0:12:55.680 was trying to numb childhood trauma. In his early twenties, 0:12:55.880 --> 0:12:58.520 Scott was invited into a boxing gym by a friend. 0:12:59.200 --> 0:12:59.760 That's where he. 0:12:59.679 --> 0:13:02.840 Discos, however, the healing power of sport and community that 0:13:02.960 --> 0:13:06.959 helped propel him towards sobriety. In two thousand and six, 0:13:07.240 --> 0:13:11.400 Scott founded The Phoenix, a free, sober active community that 0:13:11.559 --> 0:13:15.120 uses the transformative power of sport to help people treat 0:13:15.160 --> 0:13:18.959 and heal from addiction and imagine new possibilities for their 0:13:19.000 --> 0:13:23.480 lives through fitness. The program restores compassion to a system 0:13:23.520 --> 0:13:26.720 that has long relied on locking people up to solve 0:13:26.760 --> 0:13:31.640 the addiction crisis. Scott Strode is one of many entrepreneurs 0:13:31.679 --> 0:13:37.880 partnering with Stand Together to drive solutions in education, healthcare, poverty. 0:13:37.400 --> 0:13:38.480 And criminal justice. 0:13:39.440 --> 0:13:42.240 To learn more, about addiction and the War on Drugs. 0:13:42.679 --> 0:13:43.760 Listen to the War. 0:13:43.559 --> 0:13:47.360 On Drugs podcast on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get 0:13:47.360 --> 0:13:58.280 your podcasts. As the days, weeks, and months pass, there 0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:03.480 are certain dates that reopen unhealed wounds. February twenty fourth 0:14:03.880 --> 0:14:08.160 was the anniversary of Michelle's death, thirty six years since 0:14:08.160 --> 0:14:12.480 she was killed. This anniversary is always a difficult day 0:14:12.520 --> 0:14:17.560 for Leo. I'm just wondering what gets you through these 0:14:17.640 --> 0:14:18.280 dark times? 0:14:18.320 --> 0:14:20.160 You know, is it faith? Is it music? What is 0:14:20.160 --> 0:14:21.360 it that holds you together? 0:14:22.400 --> 0:14:24.880 You know, that's a really really good question, and it's 0:14:25.000 --> 0:14:28.000 a very important answer. The very simple answer is that 0:14:28.080 --> 0:14:29.960 my faith in the God that has got me this 0:14:30.080 --> 0:14:32.320 far is what gets me through each and. 0:14:32.280 --> 0:14:33.280 Every one of those days. 0:14:33.280 --> 0:14:35.600 And it's not just the February twenty fourth day. It's 0:14:35.640 --> 0:14:38.200 her birthday on the summer eight and our wedding day. 0:14:38.400 --> 0:14:41.720 But February's is the worst because of what it represents. 0:14:41.800 --> 0:14:48.160 And this time it was somehow more difficult. I was 0:14:48.560 --> 0:14:50.760 in a very saddened state. 0:14:51.240 --> 0:14:52.440 It was really tough. 0:14:53.720 --> 0:14:56.440 On the day of the anniversary, Leo has sent a 0:14:56.480 --> 0:15:00.760 picture of Michelle's grave. The headstone was a ridge inscribed 0:15:00.800 --> 0:15:05.720 with her married name Michelle Schofield, but after Leo was 0:15:05.760 --> 0:15:09.000 convicted of her murder, the stone was replaced with one 0:15:09.040 --> 0:15:11.760 bearing her maiden name, Michelle Salm. 0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:16.080 My sister had found a picture somewhere and sent it 0:15:16.080 --> 0:15:18.920 to me, and I noticed that my name was taken 0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:22.600 off of the headstrong by her dad. I totally understand 0:15:22.640 --> 0:15:24.720 his sentiment and his feeling, but I didn't deserve that 0:15:24.840 --> 0:15:28.400 dishonor I don't want to, you know, art him in 0:15:28.440 --> 0:15:30.560 any kind of way. It's just it adds to the 0:15:31.920 --> 0:15:35.040 to the feeling of sadness that I had on that day. 0:15:36.720 --> 0:15:39.560 These anniversaries are just part of the stress that Leo 0:15:39.680 --> 0:15:42.080 is dealing with. On top of the pressures of his 0:15:42.200 --> 0:15:46.120 life in prison. He was having trouble sleeping, and all 0:15:46.160 --> 0:15:48.080 of the stress seemed to catch up with him. 0:15:48.320 --> 0:15:50.120 A few days before we spoke. 0:15:50.760 --> 0:15:54.440 I was at work, was working with my boss and 0:15:54.520 --> 0:15:58.080 pushing a tool card and I really didn't have any wanning. 0:15:58.080 --> 0:16:01.960 Apparently my blood pressure was high and somehow my heart 0:16:01.960 --> 0:16:03.320 got out a rhythm and. 0:16:04.600 --> 0:16:05.160 When I felt it. 0:16:05.240 --> 0:16:09.320 Come on, you know, it caused me to hitch my breathing, 0:16:09.520 --> 0:16:11.800 and so I asked my boss to give me a minute. 0:16:11.840 --> 0:16:12.640 I put my head down. 0:16:12.640 --> 0:16:15.720 I was trying to catch my breath and I couldn't 0:16:15.760 --> 0:16:20.360 get that rhythm right, and I ended up falling on 0:16:20.400 --> 0:16:24.400 the ground, apparently. And the only thing that I remember 0:16:24.720 --> 0:16:27.840 about being on the ground, because I was laying there 0:16:28.040 --> 0:16:31.320 and looking up, I had like tunnel vision, and I 0:16:31.360 --> 0:16:34.320 had this sound like it was a jet plane in 0:16:34.360 --> 0:16:36.960 my ears. I was laying there and I could see 0:16:36.960 --> 0:16:39.600 the sky and I couldn't really see anything around me 0:16:40.320 --> 0:16:43.160 except the sky in front of me, and it was 0:16:43.200 --> 0:16:45.440 just a position I was in. It was the clear 0:16:45.440 --> 0:16:51.000 sky and clouds, and it was very, very sublime for 0:16:51.080 --> 0:16:56.480 me because I was seeing a fast expanse without looking 0:16:56.560 --> 0:17:01.480 through a fence or a raisor fire or bars or 0:17:01.560 --> 0:17:04.280 steel doors or you know, you take that from Brandon, 0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:07.119 because you know, we're always looking horizontally here, right, and 0:17:07.600 --> 0:17:10.240 you look up a lot, and so having that. 0:17:10.160 --> 0:17:12.720 View was very surreal for me. 0:17:12.800 --> 0:17:15.760 It was it was very comforting. 0:17:21.200 --> 0:17:23.760 Leo told me that as he was lying there looking 0:17:23.800 --> 0:17:26.320 up at the blue sky and white clouds, there was 0:17:26.359 --> 0:17:28.600 a brief moment when he didn't know where he was. 0:17:30.280 --> 0:17:33.320 He didn't know if he was dead or alive, imprisoned 0:17:33.440 --> 0:17:38.399 or free, And. 0:17:39.720 --> 0:17:43.439 Wow, that was pretty great for me, and that's the 0:17:43.440 --> 0:17:45.359 only thing I remember about being on the Brown. 0:17:54.080 --> 0:17:56.359 Have you been able to listen to that final episode? 0:17:58.600 --> 0:17:58.800 Now? 0:17:58.920 --> 0:18:02.480 Unfortunately I don't get too. I mean, I've heard some 0:18:02.600 --> 0:18:05.040 of it over the phone with Christy Sharonck with me, 0:18:05.119 --> 0:18:07.399 and I've heard thoughts of it, and you know, I 0:18:07.480 --> 0:18:09.359 know some of the things that it was about. 0:18:10.480 --> 0:18:12.680 We told Leo some of what we learned from our 0:18:12.720 --> 0:18:16.920 interview with Jeremy Scott, just bits and pieces. It's hard 0:18:16.960 --> 0:18:21.320 for Leo to hear these details, but through family, Leo 0:18:21.440 --> 0:18:23.960 was able to hear some more. And there was one 0:18:24.000 --> 0:18:27.879 part that really stuck with him, Jeremy's insistence that he 0:18:27.960 --> 0:18:31.280 told the prosecutor John Aguero all the way back in 0:18:31.280 --> 0:18:35.479 two thousand and five that he was responsible for Michelle's murder. 0:18:36.280 --> 0:18:39.520 This was a full decade before Jeremy confessed over the 0:18:39.520 --> 0:18:41.600 phone to Leo's defense attorney. 0:18:42.640 --> 0:18:45.080 That is one segment of it that I actually did 0:18:45.119 --> 0:18:48.480 get to hear that they had played for me over 0:18:48.520 --> 0:18:52.560 the phone. And I'm going to tell you my initial 0:18:52.760 --> 0:18:56.000 reaction at that moment, because I didn't know that until then. 0:18:58.600 --> 0:18:59.879 I was very angry. 0:19:00.480 --> 0:19:01.159 I was very. 0:19:01.040 --> 0:19:06.120 Angry because it became obvious to me that. 0:19:08.400 --> 0:19:14.400 My life, my wife's life, my wife today, Chrissy Ashley, 0:19:14.480 --> 0:19:18.480 my family, Michelle, her family, none of that. 0:19:18.359 --> 0:19:20.040 Mattered to that man. 0:19:21.200 --> 0:19:23.680 And had he done the right thing at that point, 0:19:23.840 --> 0:19:25.560 I'd have been willing to stand there and shake his 0:19:25.640 --> 0:19:28.040 hand and say, you know, we move on from this. 0:19:28.240 --> 0:19:31.080 Just just do the right thing, because anybody can make 0:19:31.119 --> 0:19:35.280 a mistake. And I've never been vindictive about that. I've 0:19:35.320 --> 0:19:37.840 never been bitter about it. I'm still not bitter about it. 0:19:38.240 --> 0:19:41.439 But at that moment, I was extremely angry because he 0:19:41.480 --> 0:19:43.840 didn't do the right thing. He covered it up, and 0:19:43.880 --> 0:19:47.160 I went years longer trying to fight this case and 0:19:47.640 --> 0:19:52.560 lost at these appeals, and so it was very It 0:19:52.600 --> 0:19:55.919 was very devastating for me. And ironically enough, I was 0:19:56.000 --> 0:19:59.680 more angry with John Girl than I was with Jeremy. 0:20:00.800 --> 0:20:04.600 I think Jeremy was was more just at that point 0:20:04.680 --> 0:20:08.879 than he was than Guirrel was. I've since, by the 0:20:08.920 --> 0:20:10.639 way I've had I've had to let that go to 0:20:10.800 --> 0:20:13.879 John Guerrero is dead. If I can just say this 0:20:14.080 --> 0:20:18.439 really quick about mister gurrel Uh. He was always like 0:20:18.880 --> 0:20:20.840 a nemesis for me for a little while. I think 0:20:20.880 --> 0:20:22.760 I probably was for him as well. 0:20:23.480 --> 0:20:26.600 Leo told me about one time decades ago at a 0:20:26.640 --> 0:20:36.000 post conviction hearing when he spotted John Aguero in the courtroom. 0:20:33.200 --> 0:20:36.080 And mister Gurrel stood up and shook my lawyer's hand 0:20:36.119 --> 0:20:37.359 and read it him. He looked at me and he 0:20:37.400 --> 0:20:40.680 asked me how I was doing, and he was as 0:20:40.680 --> 0:20:42.760 sincereous you could be as asking that. I mean, he 0:20:42.840 --> 0:20:46.159 was cordial to me, and I think I think for 0:20:46.320 --> 0:20:51.080 me the years after that, he became somebody I really 0:20:51.160 --> 0:20:53.640 wanted to prove this case too. You know, it wasn't 0:20:53.640 --> 0:20:56.080 somebody I hated. I've never hated John Guirrew. 0:20:57.080 --> 0:20:57.760 I believe that. 0:20:57.760 --> 0:21:02.040 We need UH prosecutors. Unfortunately, we need the judiciary, we 0:21:02.160 --> 0:21:03.000 need the DC. 0:21:03.200 --> 0:21:04.040 We need these. 0:21:04.200 --> 0:21:07.680 Systems in place to protect people and to hold the 0:21:07.680 --> 0:21:11.919 other this accountable who commit violence crime. But for me, 0:21:13.240 --> 0:21:16.080 mister Guirrel represented somebody I wanted to prove this case 0:21:16.200 --> 0:21:18.280 or I really wanted to prove this case, and I felt 0:21:18.359 --> 0:21:20.720 like someday it would happen and we would both be 0:21:20.760 --> 0:21:22.720 all right with it. And then when I heard he 0:21:22.760 --> 0:21:26.760 died in Morocco, that was that was kind of sad 0:21:26.800 --> 0:21:30.640 for me because part of the goal is not going 0:21:30.680 --> 0:21:34.920 to be able to be fulfilled. But you know, now 0:21:34.920 --> 0:21:39.040 I have Victoria Avalon and Brian Haas, and you know 0:21:39.359 --> 0:21:41.040 I want to prove to them too, but they don't 0:21:41.040 --> 0:21:43.600 have the history with me that I had with mister Guirrel. 0:21:44.080 --> 0:21:46.320 And so for me, it's never been about bitterness and 0:21:46.400 --> 0:21:49.480 never been about hatred and proving somebody wrong. It was 0:21:49.520 --> 0:21:52.960 just about proving me innocent, if that makes any sense. 0:22:08.359 --> 0:22:12.119 Leo's legal team is still debating strategies to legally prove 0:22:12.240 --> 0:22:17.360 Leo's innocence, but in the meantime, Leo has another opportunity 0:22:17.400 --> 0:22:20.879 for parole. We'll go into that process in more depth 0:22:20.920 --> 0:22:24.040 in another follow up episode once we have more details, 0:22:24.680 --> 0:22:27.119 but for now, what we do know is that on 0:22:27.160 --> 0:22:30.880 March fifteenth, Leo will receive a visit from an investigator 0:22:30.920 --> 0:22:34.760 with the Florida Commission on a fender review. This person 0:22:34.800 --> 0:22:37.520 will show up at Hardy CI and spend some time 0:22:37.560 --> 0:22:40.840